Is atheism a form of patriarchal hegemony?

[Abdul Alhazred]

In another thread on one of the less moderated forums, in the context of denying that there is a prophet for modern atheism, prophets being out of line for atheists, I said:
Neither Randi, Paul Kurtz, Bertrand Russell, Charles Darwin, nor Robert Ingersoll, admirable as all those men may be. Now I notice that these all are men, no women.

Who are the women of atheism? Names we should recognize?

[Jeff Corey]

Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

Ah yes a good one. And one who did some good.

[apoger]

Susan B. Anthony

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by apoger
Susan B. Anthony


Are you sure she was an atheist? I have never heard this.

[thaiboxerken]

Jodi Foster...mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[gentlehorse]

Ayn Rand?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Jodi Foster...mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Cute. She may be an atheist, but that's not the point. There are many women who are atheists, but I'm looking for women who are atheists of the stature of the men I mentioned in the first post.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair qualifies, just barely.

What I want is women who are well known scientists, mathematicians, philosophers and the like, and declared atheists.

Did Marie Curie ever declare herself an atheist? She certainly never declared herself religious.

Anybody out there got that kind of stuff?

That's the stuff I want to know, not sexy actresses of no religion.

[thaiboxerken]

What I want is women who are well known scientists, mathematicians, philosophers and the like, and declared atheists

I don't see why it matters. How many women are known scientist, mathematicians and philosophers anyway?! Men just happen to be make up more of that category of people on both the theist and the atheist sides.

[thaiboxerken]

Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists.

And she is one HOT babe too.

[Darat]

Abdul

Atheism is not a philosophy or way of life. Being an atheist does not make you automatically be a member of any particular group (apart from the set of people who say they are atheist).

Therefore I cannot see how "atheism" can be a form of hegemony.

So the answer to your question is no it isn’t.

[gentlehorse]

This may be worth a quick click.

Ayn Rand quote generator (http://www.hypermall.com/cgi-bin/rand-quotes.pl)

Click "Do that again".

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


Cute. She may be an atheist, but that's not the point. There are many women who are atheists, but I'm looking for women who are atheists of the stature of the men I mentioned in the first post.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair qualifies, just barely.

What I want is women who are well known scientists, mathematicians, philosophers and the like, and declared atheists.

Did Marie Curie ever declare herself an atheist? She certainly never declared herself religious.

Anybody out there got that kind of stuff?

That's the stuff I want to know, not sexy actresses of no religion.

Hervey Peoples
Eugenie Scott

I´m not sure if they are atheists, but they are scientists and sceptics.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Darat
Abdul

Atheism is not a philosophy or way of life. Being an atheist does not make you automatically be a member of any particular group (apart from the set of people who say they are atheist).

Therefore I cannot see how "atheism" can be a form of hegemony.

So the answer to your question is no it isn’t.

Of course you are right, but I want some women to add to my off the top of the head list of prominent atheists.

I've got two so far.

Ellen Johnson, much as I admire her, does not count because the average college educated person hasn't heard of her.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred

Ellen Johnson, much as I admire her, does not count because the average college educated person hasn't heard of her.

I didn't know you had criteria for this. What is your criteria for a "prominent" atheist?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


I didn't know you had criteria for this. What is your criteria for a "prominent" atheist?

Someone ordinary college educated people might have heard of.

Someone I can mention and not have to explain who it is.

Admittedly a fuzzy category.

[thaiboxerken]

It's very fuzzy. Many college educated people I know have no clue who James Randi is.

[EGarrett]

Ummm...4 out of the 5 men in your initial post aren't recognized by the average college-educated person either.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
It's very fuzzy. Many college educated people I know have no clue who James Randi is.

Point. But I didn't need to explain any on my list to members of this forum. I expect that's not the case with Ellen Johnson.

And I admit I had to google a bit to get up speed on Hervey Peoples.

Yes it's very subjective what is prominent "enough", but what I want is to be able to rattle off a list of names, including nearly half women, without non-morons saying "Who?"

Or worse yet, saying "Who?" only about the women.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by EGarrett
Ummm...4 out of the 5 men in your initial post aren't recognized by the average college-educated person either.


Neither Randi, Paul Kurtz, Bertrand Russell, Charles Darwin, nor Robert Ingersoll, admirable as all those men may be.


Four out of five? I hesitate to give you Paul Kurtz and Randi. Anyone who grew up in New York City when I did knows Randi from his radio show, and anyone who went to a State University of New York college knows Kurtz. But of course New York City isn't the universe, though many may think so.

And Randi has been a helluva successful self-promoter. That's not a negative criticism. I wish I were as good at that than he.

That leaves Bertrand Russell, Charles Darwin, Robert Ingersoll.

Darwin everybody's heard of, educated or not. Are you claiming that someone can be considered educated who has not heard of Bertrand Russell?

I'll leave Ingersoll in the grey area for now.

[gentlehorse]

Carmen Argibay?

link (http://atheism.about.com/b/a/059736.htm)

The average college grads may not have heard of her, but I'll bet they've heard of Argentina.

Well...maybe not--

[gentlehorse]

Ernestine Rose? (http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/roots/rose/)

Nah. Nobody's heard of her.

[EGarrett]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
Four out of five?

Cycklops: Do me a favor...
**** NJ 21: Shoot
Cycklops: Who out of the following people do you recognize?
Cycklops: James Randi, Paul Kurtz, Bertrand Russell, Charles Darwin, Robert Ingersoll
**** NJ 21: Darwin
Cycklops: That's it, right?
**** NJ 21: Yeah

Cycklops: Who out of the following people do you recognize?
Cycklops: James Randi, Paul Kurtz, Bertrand Russell, Charles Darwin, Robert Ingersoll
Irish ****: Uh, oh Darwin, sorry.
Irish ****: only Darwin, rather

Cycklops: Who out of the following people do you recognize
Cycklops: James Randi, Paul Kurtz, Bertrand Russell, Charles Darwin, Robert Ingersoll
T****SC IL: Darwin

Cycklops: Who out of the following people do you recognize?
Cycklops: James Randi, Paul Kurtz, Bertrand Russell, Charles Darwin, Robert Ingersoll
pimpgirl****24: i dont know who any of those people are expect for Charles Darwin
Cycklops: gracias

Cycklops: James Randi, Paul Kurtz, Bertrand Russell, Charles Darwin, Robert Ingersoll
se C * N ** DO: Darwin.
Cycklops: Gracias

That's everyone I asked. If for some reason (though I don't think you will) I can PM the screennames to you and you can ask them yourself. All are college-educated.

Enthusiasts tend to be surprised by the average person's lack of knowledge of their pet subject...

[Benguin]

George Eliot (think about it ...)

[Benguin]

And Margaret Sanger, of birth control fame.

[LucyR]

Btw, was Darwin an atheist? I don't recall.

[apoger]

Susan B. Anthony
Are you sure she was an atheist? I have never heard this.

As far as I can tell, she never outright stated her standing. I must suspect that this was to protect the political movements that she was working for. She did however "associate" with the freethinker crowd. She was rabidly anti-religion in respect to it's effect of human rights and equality. Friend and foe considered her to be agnostic or atheist. As she never said "I am an atheist" (as far as I can tell), I hesitate to put words in her mouth. She is considered by many to be an example of an influencial atheistic woman.

A respectable summary of her achievments can be found in this article from Atheists.org: Link to Susan B Anthony article at atheists.org (http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/roots/anthony/)

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by LucyR
Btw, was Darwin an atheist? I don't recall. Sort of?

I have never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally (and more and more as I grow older), but not always, that an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind. But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can well remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans, and manuscripts being discovered at Pompeii or elsewhere, which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress. (From 'Life and Letters of Charles Darwin')

[epepke]

Clara Barton, of Red Cross fame. Possibly not exactly an atheist, given the time she lived, but certainly a freethinker and at least an agnostic.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
Ellen Johnson, much as I admire her, does not count because the average college educated person hasn't heard of her.

How many average college-educated people have heard of Robert Ingersoll or Paul Kurtz? How many college-educated people would classify Darwin as an agnostic rather than an atheist, or claim he had a deathbed conversion?

[Louis_Cypher]

I don't know about the rest of you... but I was VERY depressed to discover that Barry Manelo is an atheist....

Sanger and Anthony are frequently listed as atheists, I've seen Currie listed. When all else fails, do a Google search...

[Robin]

Emma Goldman?

[Brian the Snail]

Virginia Woolf

Germaine Greer

I'm pretty sure these women wouldn't agree that atheism is a form of patriarchal hegemony.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Thanks to all. I now have what I wanted.

[DrMatt]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Jodi Foster...mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.



Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

[DrMatt]

Originally posted by Louis_Cypher
[B]I don't know about the rest of you... but I was VERY depressed to discover that Barry Manelo is an atheist....


Why?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Barry Manilow (this is the correct spelling) is an atheist? It doesn't affect my position one way or the other, but I'm wondering.

When did he say this?

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
Did Marie Curie ever declare herself an atheist? She certainly never declared herself religious.According to her biographer Robert Reid, Marie Curie (born Marja Sklodowska) was raised Catholic but became agnostic after losing her faith in the wake of a series of family tragedies in her youth.

[Louis_Cypher]

Originally posted by DrMatt


Why?

Because it's BARRY MANILOW, dude...

[Louis_Cypher]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
Barry Manilow (this is the correct spelling) is an atheist? It doesn't affect my position one way or the other, but I'm wondering.

When did he say this?

In the November 18, 1998 issue The Independent (a UK daily newspaper), Manilow is questioned by readers. Two of interest are below:

Q: Do you believe in God?

A: Yes. His name is Clive Davis, and he's the head of my record company.

Q: How important is your Judaism to you?

A: It isn't. My humanism is.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by epepke
Clara Barton, of Red Cross fame. Possibly not exactly an atheist, given the time she lived, but certainly a freethinker and at least an agnostic. Clara Barton was a Universalist.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
According to her biographer Robert Reid, Marie Curie (born Marja Sklodowska) was raised Catholic but became agnostic after losing her faith in the wake of a series of family tragedies in her youth.

Interesting. What was her husband Pierre Curie? I suspect the same.

He was less of a scientist, but if it weren't for him, she'd never have been recognized. He was a member of the all-male French Academy, and used his influence to get his wife accepted.

Pierre Curie is more of a feminist hero than his wife, he had more to lose. His wife was more of a scientist.

Eve Curie, their daughter was a helluva journalist. Read Journey Among Warriors.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
Interesting. What was her husband Pierre Curie? I suspect the same.According to his wife, Pierre Curie "belonged to no religion." He could probably be characterized as agnostic.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
That leaves Bertrand Russell, Charles Darwin, Robert Ingersoll.Both Bertrand Russell and Robert Ingersoll, unless I am deceived by memory, denied that they were atheists and identified themselves as agnostic.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Brian the Snail
Virginia WoolfAlso an agnostic, as I recall.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Louis_Cypher


In the November 18, 1998 issue The Independent (a UK daily newspaper), Manilow is questioned by readers. Two of interest are below:

Q: Do you believe in God?

A: Yes. His name is Clive Davis, and he's the head of my record company.

Q: How important is your Judaism to you?

A: It isn't. My humanism is.

Good for Barry Manilow, but he isn't a name I'd cite.

Sorry Barry.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Chaos


Hervey Peoples
Eugenie Scott

I´m not sure if they are atheists, but they are scientists and sceptics. As far as I've been able to determine after some digging, these two authors are good candidates for the label "atheist".

[epepke]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
Both Bertrand Russell and Robert Ingersoll, unless I am deceived by memory, denied that they were atheists and identified themselves as agnostic.

One has to take into consideration the spirit of the times, though.

Alternative explanations other than the God-hypothesis were still either weak or nonexistent at the time.

Nowadays, only fundamentalists and people of that stripe claim overwhelming evidence in favor of a God-hypothesis. 100 or 150 years ago, it wasn't so clear.

The other factor (which I would not include, because it's just politics) is that an academic career was effectively impossible for an outright atheist. I'm sure that many people whou would be atheists today claimed "agnostic" at the time. But as it's historically inseperable from the level of evidence available at the time, I am loathe to condemn them.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by epepke


One has to take into consideration the spirit of the times, though.

Alternative explanations other than the God-hypothesis were still either weak or nonexistent at the time.

Nowadays, only fundamentalists and people of that stripe claim overwhelming evidence in favor of a God-hypothesis. 100 or 150 years ago, it wasn't so clear.

The other factor (which I would not include, because it's just politics) is that an academic career was effectively impossible for an outright atheist. I'm sure that many people whou would be atheists today claimed "agnostic" at the time. But as it's historically inseperable from the level of evidence available at the time, I am loathe to condemn them. I'm considering this, but would point out that Bertrand Russell died in 1970 and that much of his important work on the philosophy of religion was written post-WWII.

[epepke]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
I'm considering this, but would point out that Bertrand Russell died in 1970 and that much of his important work on the philosophy of religion was written post-WWII.

True. It would be interesting to see a later interview with him to see what he called himself. I'm not aware of any such interviews. Are you?

[Number Six]

I bet 90% of college educated people don't know who James Randi, Paul Kurtz or Robert Ingersoll are/were. I bet over half don't know who Bertrand Russel was. There are two separate things...one is ever being exposed to who someone is/was and another is knowing it right now. At any given point in time we know a lot less than we've been exposed to.

It's not really far to ask how many famous women athiests there were of old because there weren't that many famous women period back then, and also anyone (man or woman) that was an athiest didn't necessarily announce it due to social sanction. (In fact, I think that is also true of many people today.)

Also, as far as the general public would regard someone that explained their beliefs, I think whether someone is athiest or agnostic is splitting hairs. People would effectively consider agnostics to be athiests because agnostics are nonbelievers. I've run across many people that called themselves agnostics and by that they meant that they do believe in God or a higher power but they just don't know which religion best describes this higher power. I think a more important distinction to most people is believer vs nonbeliever (and both athiest and agnostic fall into the nonbeiever category).

[LettristLoon]

If Gertrude Stein counts as a female...

- B

[Tom Morris]

How about Claire Rayner? She's involved with the British Humanist Association.

As for Bertrand Russell, he claimed to be a 'philosophical agnostic and practical atheist'. Make of that what you will.

[Polux]

Originally posted by gentlehorse
Carmen Argibay?

link (http://atheism.about.com/b/a/059736.htm)

The average college grads may not have heard of her, but I'll bet they've heard of Argentina.

Well...maybe not--

Oh yes, Carmen Argibay. Proposed by the president himself for the High Court. She had made declarations favouring the despenalization of abortion, and claiming to be a "militant atheist". I'm Argentine. I've been following the reactions on her candidacy. Hell, the Church has way too much influence over here. They mounted a scandal over it. Catholic readers wrote letters to the major newspapers complaining about this "pro abortion" person, defending "life" and theistic values. There were even concerns from the Vatican about this candidacy... no names mentioned, but there was a message to Argentina about the value of life and stuff.
In a later interview, Argibay was asked about those "controversial" declarations. She said she was not IN FAVOR of abortion, but that in her opinion it should not be penalized. And said that she was taken out of context about the "militant atheist" -- she had said so laughing, as a joke, as she considered that an oxymoron. She's an atheist, period.
Of course, all the propaganda against her had already worked and this interview wouldn't change anything.

Another reason why this situation sucks is that she has a very good reputation and is seen as "incorruptible". I would say that those are the kind of attributes needed rather than belief in deities.

And the bloody dictators of the military juntas that took power here in the 70's were OH SO F***ING CHRISTIAN.

[DrMatt]

Anyhow, it's not a patriarchal hegemony, but it might make a good desert topping.

[Kensington Bailey]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
In another thread on one of the less moderated forums, in the context of denying that there is a prophet for modern atheism, prophets being out of line for atheists, I said:
Now I notice that these all are men, no women.

Who are the women of atheism? Names we should recognize?

Better to ask: Does atheism escape the patriarchal hegemony that pervades just about any other social, intellectual or cultural phenomenon?

No, doesn't seem to ....

[Blue Monk]

Here's a link to a list of 'Celebrity Atheists'

Celebrity Atheists (http://www.celebatheists.com/)

It's really kind of interesting.

Did you know that Alan Hale "Skipper on Gilligan's Island" was an atheist, hehe.