Democrats, the real conservatives

[Oso]

We had a nice fund raiser for Kerry last Thursday here in Houston. You may not of heard about it yet but we set the all time record for a Texas Democratic fund raiser. The goal was to raise 1 million... we brought in over 2 million dollars.

I had an opportunity to speak with senator Kerry and amazingly enough you may be seeing some of my suggested campaign strategies in the coming months. The first thing I did was give him some bullet points to think about. As soon as he read them he started rattling off many more examples, implying he was already thinking about this.

Here's what I gave him.

Democrats, The Real Conservatives


We need to take ownership of the word conservative. We need to take it away from the Republicans. Bush is not a conservative. These positions are not conservative.

* Remove the security from Social Security.

* Invade another country based purely on ideological philosophy.

* Increase spending without paying for it. We tax and spend they just spend.

* Alienate nearly every nation in the rest of the world.

* Label teachers terrorists.

* Abandon Hubble and existing good science. Instead try to put a man on Mars at much greater expense.

* Propose frivolous constitutional amendments to outlaw flag burning and define marriage.

* Gut the EPA and open up pristine environments for exploitation.

This is not conservation. George Bush is not conservative.
WE ARE THE CONSERVATIVES!

[shanek]

Ah, so the Democrats are going to pretend to be conservative while still going about their socialistic spend-thrifting ways. So now, they're even more like the Republicans...

[LeFevre]

Originally posted by shanek
Ah, so the Democrats are going to pretend to be conservative while still going about their socialistic spend-thrifting ways. So now, they're even more like the Republicans...

hehehe

[Ziggurat]

Originally posted by Oso

This is not conservation. George Bush is not conservative.
WE ARE THE CONSERVATIVES!


Stupid strategy. Who, exactly, is this supposed to target? Conservatives won't be swayed, because although they may concede that Bush isn't really that conservative, he's still right-wing, and there's no way in hell you can covince them that Kerry is actually a conservative. Liberals aren't going to vote against Bush because he's NOT conservative, and they aren't going to vote FOR Kerry because he is conservative. And the vast middle simply will not care which label you stick on which candidate - what they'll take from this isn't that Bush is not a conservative (because ultimately they don't care), but that Kerry is trying to give himself a label (conservative) which simply doesn't fit. Kerry's got some serious problems if this is the kind of strategy he needs to resort to. And I'm not even talking about the debatable validity of the individual accusations, which really won't play nearly as well in mainstream america as they play among those already commited anti-Bushers.

[American]

That's like claiming you don't own an SUV, rather your family does....

Oh and he never threw his Vietnam medals. Those were his ribbons that he threw. Big difference.


The only "message" he sells is that voters are stupid. And now you want to take this joke to a new level by claiming that you are conservative. You can't say "I'm liberal, and I'm proud." You have to lie about who and what you are.

FYI, the network filters won't save you this time. There are a dozen alternatives to Dan Rather and Piere Jennings, and conservative networks (tv and radio) are all killing the competition in ratings.

Have you ever considered that your ideas and crap values are what's being rejected? Not the messenger or the medium, but YOU. You suck. That's basically it. People don't want their money taken away and wasted in the public sector. They don't want to cower and run from a war - they want to fight and win it. They deeply resent the 4-to-8 years you delay getting an actual JOB - doing real work - while you cry, play with yourself, and accuse those "oppressive" parents for not giving you money to buy pot for the weekend.

You stink. We hate you. Nobody cares about your good intentions or what you learned in comparative literature class, how "the American middle class rapes the world through Globalization and keeps the po' black man down in da ghetto." Drugs and poverty are the product of Johnson-style 'war' on poverty, and the result we have is the miserable government housing projects you see in every urban landscape.

Whenever a murderer is caught, or a child rapist, or a pety shop-lifter for that matter, right there beside them is an ACLU lawyer protecting them. A liberal. You will not see a conservative apologize for the atrocities of violent criminals. Only YOU. You, who would sooner put a home-owner in jail for shooting an intruder, rather than the actual guy who was robbing someone's house.

You SUCK. You were born to suck, and now the American public knows it. So keep sucking, sucker.

And fill my SUV while you're at it.

[jj]

Originally posted by shanek
Ah, so the Democrats are going to pretend to be conservative while still going about their socialistic spend-thrifting ways. So now, they're even more like the Republicans...


***HOWL***

Hey, Shane, dude, they spent less money than the 'pubs over the last 50 years.

Sad when you figure that out, isn't it? FDR is probably rolling around in his coffin.

[clk]

Originally posted by American
That's like claiming you don't own an SUV, rather your family does....

Oh and he never threw his Vietnam medals. Those were his ribbons that he threw. Big difference.


The only "message" he sells is that voters are stupid. And now you want to take this joke to a new level by claiming that you are conservative. You can't say "I'm liberal, and I'm proud." You have to lie about who and what you are.

FYI, the network filters won't save you this time. There are a dozen alternatives to Dan Rather and Piere Jennings, and conservative networks (tv and radio) are all killing the competition in ratings.

Have you ever considered that your ideas and crap values are what's being rejected? Not the messenger or the medium, but YOU. You suck. That's basically it. People don't want their money taken away and wasted in the public sector. They don't want to cower and run from a war - they want to fight and win it. They deeply resent the 4-to-8 years you delay getting an actual JOB - doing real work - while you cry, play with yourself, and accuse those "oppressive" parents for not giving you money to buy pot for the weekend.

You stink. We hate you. Nobody cares about your good intentions or what you learned in comparative literature class, how "the American middle class rapes the world through Globalization and keeps the po' black man down in da ghetto." Drugs and poverty are the product of Johnson-style 'war' on poverty, and the result we have is the miserable government housing projects you see in every urban landscape.

Whenever a murderer is caught, or a child rapist, or a pety shop-lifter for that matter, right there beside them is an ACLU lawyer protecting them. A liberal. You will not see a conservative apologize for the atrocities of violent criminals. Only YOU. You, who would sooner put a home-owner in jail for shooting an intruder, rather than the actual guy who was robbing someone's house.

You SUCK. You were born to suck, and now the American public knows it. So keep sucking, sucker.

And fill my SUV while you're at it.


Funny how you bash liberals when so many of them are advocating the right for you and Elton to get married. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36453)
Not that Elton would marry you. He's still pissed about what you said here. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32963) Contrary to what you think, he did NOT copy REO Speedwagon. He did NOT.

I keep trying to delete this thread. Where's the "lock" button? I can't find it.


Please- STOP writing stuff now. DON'T post here anymore. DON'T.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Oso
I had an opportunity to speak with senator Kerry and amazingly enough you may be seeing some of my suggested campaign strategies in the coming months.

You realize every other a-hole he runs into tries to tell him how to run his campaign and he nods and says "thats a good idea".

[RandFan]

Remove the security from Social Security. You'll explain this and cure me of my Naivete.

Invade another country based purely on ideological philosophy. Straw man.

Increase spending without paying for it. We tax and spend they just spend. Valid criticism, hardly something to be proud of.

Alienate nearly every nation in the rest of the world. Yes, we should do what the French and Germans tell us to do. Now there is a bright idea.

Label teachers terrorists. I forgot the nexus for this. But I will tell you that the Teachers Union is probably the worst thing that ever happened to kids.

Abandon Hubble and existing good science. Instead try to put a man on Mars at much greater expense. Again, I don't really know the particulars. Was it Bush or Conservatives that suggested ending Hubble? The trip to Mars seems a little wrong headed but hey, it would be a grand idea if we could afford it and there weren't better ideas.

Propose frivolous constitutional amendments to outlaw flag burning... Popular amongst Republicans and Democrats, come on, let's be intellectually honest, ', ...and define marriage. Fair criticism but again, this is also popular amongst both parties. Democrat and Liberal leaders however take a significantly more tolerant stance and perhaps on flag burning also. But have the balls to admit that politically both are favored by the majority.

Gut the EPA and open up pristine environments for exploitation. This I am for, at least to an extent. I love how you beg the question as if it is impossible to drill for oil in an environmentally safe fashion.

Yeah, I know, Democrats good Republicans bad. Intellectually lazy but politically effective.

Thanks for the post.

RandFan

P.S. Why didn't Kerry have the Balls to say "yeah, I pollute the environment by using an SUV? Come on Senator, we are really not that stupid (are we?)!

P.P.S Did he or didn't Kerry throw his medals over the fence?

[shanek]

Originally posted by corplinx
You realize every other a-hole he runs into tries to tell him how to run his campaign and he nods and says "thats a good idea".

That's one of the things I liked about meeting Aaron Russo (one of the forerunners for the LP nomination) this weekend. He was very nice and open and ready to chat and listen to ideas and suggestions, but when there was something he didn't agree with, he'd say something like, "Well, I see your point, and I understand and respect your position, but it's my campaign and I'm gonna run it the way I think is best."

[shanek]

Originally posted by RandFan
You'll explain this and cure me of my Naivete.

That confused me, too. Of course, I don't see any "security" in Social Security to begin with. I'd rather remove the "social" and restore the "security."

Yes, we should do what the French and Germans tell us to do. Now there is a bright idea.

Or we should just mind our own frickin' business and not go meddling in over a hundred different countries making enemies and making ourselves targets for the terrorists.

Fair criticism but again, this is also popular amongst both parties.

I think it's disingenuous, because Kerry has actually come out against gay marriage. Is he talking out of both sides of his mouth here?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by American
That's like claiming you don't own an SUV, rather your family does....

Oh and he never threw his Vietnam medals. Those were his ribbons that he threw. Big difference.


The only "message" he sells is that voters are stupid. And now you want to take this joke to a new level by claiming that you are conservative. You can't say "I'm liberal, and I'm proud." You have to lie about who and what you are. This post was reported for being abusive. This is not, however, against forum rules. For those that don't care for American's posting style, I highly suggest ignoring him.

[shemp]

Originally posted by American
Whenever a murderer is caught, or a child rapist, or a pety shop-lifter for that matter, right there beside them is an ACLU lawyer protecting them.

ACLU Comes to Rush Limbaugh's Defense (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108140,00.html)

ACLU defends Nazis in Skokie (http://dp1.digitalpast.org/Digitize/SKK/WebImages/csl770508a.pdf)

ACLU defends Ku Klux Klan right to march (http://archive.aclu.org/news/n031997f.html)

[shemp]

Originally posted by American
And fill my SUV while you're at it.

It's already full of crap whenever you drive it.

[Luke T.]

I'm thinking of John Kerry's front man right now.

Ted Kennedy. Conservative.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by shemp


ACLU Comes to Rush Limbaugh's Defense (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108140,00.html)

ACLU defends Nazis in Skokie (http://dp1.digitalpast.org/Digitize/SKK/WebImages/csl770508a.pdf)

ACLU defends Ku Klux Klan right to march (http://archive.aclu.org/news/n031997f.html)


Show me a link where the ACLU defends an individual or a gun manufacturer against a lawsuit challenging their 2nd Amendment right and I'll rethink my opinion of the ACLU...

[NightG1]

Originally posted by shemp


It's already full of crap whenever you drive it.
Not to mention REO 8-tracks -- oh, same thing. Sorry.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Kodiak



Show me a link where the ACLU defends an individual or a gun manufacturer against a lawsuit challenging their 2nd Amendment right and I'll rethink my opinion of the ACLU... This is the ACLU's position on the Second Amendment. (http://www.aclu.org/PolicePractices/PolicePractices.cfm?ID=9621&c=25)

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Oso
We need to take ownership of the word conservative. We need to take it away from the Republicans.

You had possession of that term when you guys were the loyalist Tories back during the revolution. It is no mistake that the Jeffersonian liberals of the revolution have more in common with todays conservatives. The reversal of terms occured as the State transitioned from a monarchy to a confederacy, to a constitutionally-limited representative democracy.

Being a conservative libertarian, there is alot I disagree with in the GOP and the current administration, and I do what I can from within to change it, but Bush and the GOPers are not nearly as bad as the liberal democrats and their "vision" for this country.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Upchurch
This is the ACLU's position on the Second Amendment. (http://www.aclu.org/PolicePractices/PolicePractices.cfm?ID=9621&c=25)

Ah, yes...the collective rights argument.

Funny that they consider the founders intent for finding that all the other constitutional amendments secured individual rights and freedoms.

How selectively biased of them...

James Madison, considered to be the author of the Bill of Rights, wrote that the entire Bill of Rights was "calculated to secure the personal rights of the people". -- Stephen P. Halbrook, "Where Kids and Gun Do Mix", Wall Street Journal, June 2000.

"The congress of the United States possesses no power to regulate, or interfere with the domestic concerns, or police of any state: it belongs not to them to establish any rules respecting the rights of property: nor will the constitution permit any prohibition of arms to the people: or of peaceable assemblies by them, for any purposes whatsoever, and in any number, whenever they may see occasion. -- Tucker's Blackstone, Volume 1 Appendix Note D., 1803 - Tucker's comments provide a number of rare insights into the consensus for interpretation of the Constitution that prevailed shortly after its ratification, after the debates had settled down and the Constitution was put into practice

[Cynical]

LEFEVRE! Come back in here and lighten this thread up.

American, your avatar reminds me of JFK, Jr.
A rich, pretty, arrogant a-hole who worries about whether he has a hair out of place. You are a total turn-off, boy.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Kodiak
Being a conservative libertarian, there is alot I disagree with in the GOP and the current administration, and I do what I can from within to change it, but Bush and the GOPers are not nearly as bad as the liberal democrats and their "vision" for this country.

Could you explain for me, please, what the difference is? Because I'm really having a tough time seeing it.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by shanek


Could you explain for me, please, what the difference is? Because I'm really having a tough time seeing it.

I could, but considering the effort vs. the benefit, I'm not going to. For me, the differences are many and clear, but I'm not trying to convince anyone, just offering my own opinion.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Oso


* Increase spending without paying for it. We tax and spend they just spend.

* Propose frivolous constitutional amendments to outlaw flag burning and define marriage.


It seems to me that these are the only two valid points on the list in comparing conservatism with liberalism.

Having said that, they are valid points. Since Reagan took office, it has been the Democrats, not the Republicans, that have stood for fiscal responsibility.

The Constitution of the United States is too important to be amended for frivilous things like flag burning.

[Oso]

Originally posted by RandFan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remove the security from Social Security.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You'll explain this and cure me of my Naivete.
OK. How did your 401k do during the last 3 years? Gambling is not conservative.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invade another country based purely on ideological philosophy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Straw man.
I believe you are confused. The above was not a conservative plan, but it is what happened.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Increase spending without paying for it. We tax and spend they just spend.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Valid criticism, hardly something to be proud of.
Actually pride is often the emotion after passage of a bill that not only helps people but includes the means to pay for it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alienate nearly every nation in the rest of the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, we should do what the French and Germans tell us to do. Now there is a bright idea.
No need to reply to this, obviously just a reflex response, because of the undeniable truth of my original statement


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Label teachers terrorists.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I forgot the nexus for this. But I will tell you that the Teachers Union is probably the worst thing that ever happened to kids.
Another reflex reply, perhaps you should do some research or just skip it


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abandon Hubble and existing good science. Instead try to put a man on Mars at much greater expense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, I don't really know the particulars. Was it Bush or Conservatives that suggested ending Hubble? The trip to Mars seems a little wrong headed but hey, it would be a grand idea if we could afford it and there weren't better ideas.
Bush. A grand idea if we had the $


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Propose frivolous constitutional amendments to outlaw flag burning...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Popular amongst Republicans and Democrats, come on, let's be intellectually honest, ',
I think this is what qualifies as a straw man. Frivolous constitutional amendments are not conservative.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...and define marriage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fair criticism but again, this is also popular amongst both parties. Democrat and Liberal leaders however take a significantly more tolerant stance and perhaps on flag burning also. But have the balls to admit that politically both are favored by the majority.
See above


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gut the EPA and open up pristine environments for exploitation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This I am for, at least to an extent. I love how you beg the question as if it is impossible to drill for oil in an environmentally safe fashion.
Well got me on this one. I'm in the oil bidness, so I do realize we can do it cleanly, but only because we're forced to, and being in the business, I know that to be the case.

[Virgil]

before the US civil war I think the democrats were the conservitive party and the repblicans were the liberals or progressives.


correct me if I'm wrong.

Virgil

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by RandFan
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Increase spending without paying for it. We tax and spend they just spend.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Valid criticism, hardly something to be proud of.



But certainly more of a "conservative" approach, right?

This is the thing that gets me. My dad is a conservative, right-winger, Bill OReilly/Sean Hannity watching guy. He is extremely frugal with his money, and abhores the idea of personal debt, borrowing money only for big things that you can't get in cash (like buildings - he buys cars with cash). Has a credit card, but doesn't like to use it. The concept of buying things you can't afford bothers him to no end.

So how can someone like that be such a big supporter of the republican party, which racks up the biggest deficits in history?

I used to be republican, because I thought they were against big government and were fiscally responsible. But that ended when I asked the question of when borrowing massive amounts of money was a fiscally responsible approach? It isn't at the personal level.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Oso
Remove the security from Social Security.

RandFan
You'll explain this and cure me of my Naivete.

Oso
OK. How did your 401k do during the last 3 years? Gambling is not conservative.[list=1] There have been no changes to social security.

The trust fund is scheduled to run out of money.

The idea is to allow people to invest for the LONG run and not just for 3 years.

Compare any 30 year rate of return to social security and you will see that there is not a whole lot of security to social security.[/list=1]

Oso
Invade another country based purely on ideological philosophy.

RandFan
Straw man

Oso
I believe you are confused. The above was not a conservative plan, but it is what happened. I'm confused? How about this. Please prove that Bush invaded Iraq on purely ideological philosophy. And while you are at it reconcile the notion that the Clinton administration believed that it was in the best interest of the Iraqis and America to replace Saddam.

Oso
Increase spending without paying for it. We tax and spend they just spend.

RandFan
Valid criticism, hardly something to be proud of.

Oso
Actually pride is often the emotion after passage of a bill that not only helps people but includes the means to pay for it.Spare me. You can't forever increase spending and increase taxes. There is a limit to how much money you can flush down the toilet in an ineficent government and continue to be prosperous (See John F. Kennedy).

Oso
Alienate nearly every nation in the rest of the world.

RandFan
Yes, we should do what the French and Germans tell us to do. Now there is a bright idea.

Oso
No need to reply to this, obviously just a reflex response, because of the undeniable truth of my original statementBy all means ignore it. You silence speaks volumes. The rest of the world does not have our best interest at heart. Diplomacy is not the be all end all. We must act in our best interest because France and Germany won't.


Oso
Label teachers terrorists.

RandFan
I forgot the nexus for this. But I will tell you that the Teachers Union is probably the worst thing that ever happened to kids.

Oso
Another reflex reply, perhaps you should do some research or just skip itPerhaps you should understand that you are posting to a skeptics forum. If you make a claim the onus is on you to prove it. Perhaps you should just skip it. I don't have to take your word for it.

Oso
Bush. A grand idea if we had the $ Was this supposed to be a response?

Oso
Propose frivolous constitutional amendments to outlaw flag burning...

RandFan
Popular amongst Republicans and Democrats, come on, let's be intellectually honest, ',

Oso
I think this is what qualifies as a straw man. Frivolous constitutional amendments are not conservative.Then why make the point in this thread. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Oso
...and define marriage.

RandFan
Fair criticism but again, this is also popular amongst both parties. Democrat and Liberal leaders however take a significantly more tolerant stance and perhaps on flag burning also. But have the balls to admit that politically both are favored by the majority.

Oso
See above See above.

Thanks for the response Oso.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
But certainly more of a "conservative" approach, right?

This is the thing that gets me. My dad is a conservative, right-winger, Bill OReilly/Sean Hannity watching guy. He is extremely frugal with his money, and abhores the idea of personal debt, borrowing money only for big things that you can't get in cash (like buildings - he buys cars with cash). Has a credit card, but doesn't like to use it. The concept of buying things you can't afford bothers him to no end.

So how can someone like that be such a big supporter of the republican party, which racks up the biggest deficits in history?

I used to be republican, because I thought they were against big government and were fiscally responsible. But that ended when I asked the question of when borrowing massive amounts of money was a fiscally responsible approach? It isn't at the personal level. It's hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm not going to become a Democrat simply because my party lacks the balls to cut back spending. I'm going to work to reform the party.

Two wrongs don't make a right. It is wrong to waste tax payer money and continually increase taxes to pay for that waste.

I know, three lefts make a right and two Wrights make an airplane.

[jj]

Originally posted by RandFan
It's hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm not going to become a Democrat simply because my party lacks the balls to cut back spending. I'm going to work to reform the party.

Well, the only way I know of to do that is to vote Democrat if you're disgusted with things like wastiung taxpayer money and increasing taces to pay for that waste. It's as clear as polished, clean glass that the present crop of Republicans doesn't listen to the little guy at all, misleads them, spites them, and continues to enjoy their support. Until they find out that lying to the little guy, getting rid of their jobs, ruining their savings, and attempting to cut their social support will result in them LOSING THE ELECTION, nothing good is going to happen.

Two wrongs don't make a right. It is wrong to waste tax payer money and continually increase taxes to pay for that waste.

Based on the present government spending, and the history since the 1960's, give or take, I'm not trying to catch any one instant in time there, I gather, therefore, that you support the democrats?

I know, three lefts make a right and two Wrights make an airplane.
More to the point, how much is LEFT of your civil RIGHTS, dude?

[shanek]

Originally posted by RandFan
It's hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Not even if it's Rosemary's Baby? :D

I'm not going to become a Democrat

There is a third option, you know. :p

I'm going to work to reform the party.

Oughta work about as well as the War on Drugs...

[shanek]

Originally posted by jj
Well, the only way I know of to do that is to vote Democrat if you're disgusted with things like wastiung taxpayer money and increasing taces to pay for that waste.

How is voting Democrat going to help? You're just voting for one group of tax-and-spend-ucrats to get rid of another group of tax-and-spend-ucrats

It's as clear as polished, clean glass that the present crop of Republicans doesn't listen to the little guy at all, misleads them, spites them, and continues to enjoy their support.

And it's just as clear about the Democrats.

More to the point, how much is LEFT of your civil RIGHTS, dude?

Not much, especially since the Patriot Act, which Kerry voted for.

[gnome]

Originally posted by Kodiak
Show me a link where the ACLU defends an individual or a gun manufacturer against a lawsuit challenging their 2nd Amendment right and I'll rethink my opinion of the ACLU...

To avoid starting another gun thread... let me make this point (that I've made before)...

The ACLU is never going to please everyone. You don't like their stance on the second amendment and that's a legitimate point of view. Does that make them completely useless?

In my opinion most of what they do is far more important than the argument over gun control.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by gnome


To avoid starting another gun thread... let me make this point (that I've made before)...

The ACLU is never going to please everyone. You don't like their stance on the second amendment and that's a legitimate point of view. Does that make them completely useless?

In my opinion most of what they do is far more important than the argument over gun control.

That's a fair point...

[RandFan]

RandFan
It's hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

shanek
Not even if it's Rosemary's Baby? :D


RandFan
I'm not going to become a Democrat

shanek
There is a third option, you know. :p

RandFan
I'm going to work to reform the party.

shanek
Oughta work about as well as the War on Drugs... :p Damn! I hate it when you do that. Yes, there is a third option and reform is going to be hard. Money is as just as addictive as drugs so your analogy might not be far off.

[RandFan]

RandFan
It's hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm not going to become a Democrat simply because my party lacks the balls to cut back spending. I'm going to work to reform the party.

jj
Well, the only way I know of to do that is to vote Democrat if you're disgusted with things like wastiung taxpayer money and increasing taces to pay for that waste. It's as clear as polished, clean glass that the present crop of Republicans doesn't listen to the little guy at all, misleads them, spites them, and continues to enjoy their support. Until they find out that lying to the little guy, getting rid of their jobs, ruining their savings, and attempting to cut their social support will result in them LOSING THE ELECTION, nothing good is going to happen. Well I don't agree with all of that. I'm not sure the Democrats listen to or care about the little guy. It makes good propaganda though. There are good Democrats and good Republicans (yes shanek there are great Libertarians).

RandFan
Two wrongs don't make a right. It is wrong to waste tax payer money and continually increase taxes to pay for that waste.

jj
Based on the present government spending, and the history since the 1960's, give or take, I'm not trying to catch any one instant in time there, I gather, therefore, that you support the democrats?[/b] Reagan cut taxes and increased revenue (there is some controversy about how much) it was the spending that hurt us. I'm a Republican and will stay so for the near future. Any change will be straight to the Libertarian party.

More to the point, how much is LEFT of your civil RIGHTS, dude? Well, lets see....ALL OF THEM!

Now don't get me wrong. I'm glad that there is a debate about the Patriot act and I'm glad that the Supreme Court is hearing the case. But that there is reason for discussion is not proof that I have lost my civil rights. I am concerned about security and am not prepared to dismiss actions of the federal government just because they are controversial.

I do remember the case that you told me about. I know you believe that it is proof that I don't have many rights left but I don't accept this conclusion.

[Virgil]

NPR reported the ACLU sued the gov't in secret because of the Patriot act. apparently it is against the law to sue against the Patriot act because of the gag act provision. This is greatest threat to freedom in my lifetime. I'm told that John Aschcrot in his early legal writings condemed this sort of gov't power, but now that he is the gov't it is OK.


As soon as I get a real job I'm going to have to send the ACLU some money. I really don't like some of their stands but da*m. someone has to stand up for human civil rights. If you don't hear from me it means the FBI has raided me for disagree wityh the gov't. and onlt the bad guys would disagree with the gov't ...right?


yes I'm drunkk...........


Virghil

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Virgil
NPR reported the ACLU sued the gov't in secret because of the Patriot act. apparently it is against the law to sue against the Patriot act because of the gag act provision. This is greatest threat to freedom in my lifetime. I'm told that John Aschcrot in his early legal writings condemed this sort of gov't power, but now that he is the gov't it is OK.


As soon as I get a real job I'm going to have to send the ACLU some money. I really don't like some of their stands but da*m. someone has to stand up for human civil rights. If you don't hear from me it means the FBI has raided me for disagree wityh the gov't. and onlt the bad guys would disagree with the gov't ...right?


yes I'm drunkk...........


Virghil Understood, I've posted while intoxicated myself. I respect your opinion and am glad that Americans aren't a docile buch that are unwilling to stand up to government. I champion your cause even if I don't quite agree with it.

I don't think it would be too hard to donate $20.00 and every bit helps. If you send $10.00 I'll send $20.00, deal?