Losing a friend because of alt-medicine.

[Antiquehunter]

Sigh.

I'm at the point of losing someone whom I consider a friend, because of my posts on her FB comments.

She is by and large a switched on woman, and I've been friends with her & her family for about 12 years. Watched their kids grow up etc...

She has in the past several years become very active in the alt-medicine / anti-vax / homeopathic movement. She regularly posts junky science articles on her facebook page.

This morning, she posted:

http://cure-guide.com/flu-vaccines-judged-ineffective/

To which I replied


Well a few comments: Firstly, the comments cherrypicked from the Cochrane reviews don't acknowledge the areas where the studies show favorable responses for flu vaccination - so the author here is guilty of what he accuses the CDC of doing (ignoring evidence that doesn't support someone's bias). Secondly, there is no scientific evidence that eating mushrooms or popping Vitamins A & D will prevent the flu - the 'journal citation' for the recommendations is obviously not a medical journal. That said - if you are a healthy adult, and aren't in an environment where you are at increased risk of exposure, and don't work with people who themselves at increased risk (the young, the old, the infirm) - then taking a flu shot should certainly only be an option. In the UK for example, there is no blanket recommendation for the entire population - I believe only Canada and the US do this in Western countries. WHO also makes a non-blanket recommendation.

You may or may not agree with what I said - that really isn't the point. However I did feel that my point was polite, and in the words of Phil Plait, I wasn't being a Richard.

She then said:


‎I post information like this for those of my friends that appreciate it and are looking for support in defending their choices. I would rather you unfriend me, block or ignore any status updates (of the health variety) you disagree with. I am not interested in inciting debate with you every time I help out my friends. I know where you stand on these issues. This is not a public forum, this is my livingroom and these are my friends.

To which I replied:

If by looking for support in defending a choice you mean you aren't interested in examining both sides of the coin, I find that a very strange way to look at things. Nothing I have said here was attacking, negative or condescending - simply a different POV. I consider you a friend, and would hope that the fact we don't necessarily agree on everything is a part of that friendship.

Now - I think this shows she doesn't really understand social networking. Facebook is hardly someone's 'livingroom' - and if that is how she wants to use facebook, then she should probably block everyone but her immediate family. But notwithstanding this - I am rather torn. I haven't been an ass (I don't think) and I think its rather bogus to squash a friendship over an expectation that someone should self-censor their opinions on a topic.

What do you think? Should I just shut up and sit idly by while she posts what I consider irresponsible and incorrect information? Should I just write her off as a friend? Maybe she has already written me off anyways and it may no longer be in my control.

Grr.

[bluesjnr]

Reads to me that she has found you a bit of a pain in the ass for a while and that you are not welcome in her "livingroom". Move on, I say.

[The Man]

Sorry to hear about your current predicament. As a friend of mine once said (something to the affect of) "A friend is someone who knows the worst things about you, yet still accepts you regardless". So if you do still want to be friends there are going to be some things that neither of you are going to be at total ease with. Sorry it's just not an easy row to hoe unless you just want friends who always agree you and you always agree with then you are going to disagree perhaps on major issues. The true sign of friendship is to be able to work around or in spite of the inevitable disagreements and to be able to support your friends in their decisions even if you might not agree with them.

[Antiquehunter]

Well yeah - I do find it a little amusing on a certain level that while she is suggesting there are major conspiracies hiding the 'truth' about health care from the people, that a friend suggesting there are other ways to look at things is such a threat that she wants to end the friendship.

It does no good to be 'right' about something if one can't have any friends. Gah.

[George]

How do you get on, in the flesh?

:)

[Antiquehunter]

Umm - well we used to live in the same city, but both of us have moved, so we communicate now only online. We last visited 2 years ago, and got along fine - had one discussion about homeopathy in her home which I dropped as I sensed it was about to get a little heated. (She was taking a course to get 'certified' as a 'homeopath'.) But we went out and toured wineries, went to a play her kids were in - had a normal visit.

[Baloney]

I'd stay out of her living room, it's bound to be full of incurable diseases.

[Max_mang]

Quick background on me: 15 years ago I was a massage therapist. I trained extensively in shiatsu and swedish massage.

A few years ago a friend of mine said she was going to go to school for acupuncture. I told her that after working in shiatsu for years, I don't see any evidence that the 'energy meridians' exist at all. She got very angry and yelled 'So why is it written about in books for over 3000 years?'.

I let it drop. Her father (who would have been paying for this schooling) coerced her out of it. I don't know her feelings on it now, but she still posts her horoscope every day on Facebook.

I guess sometimes being a friend means staying quiet. Not many people like a truth-teller who's on all the time.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I think what you said was perfectly polite, nothing wrong with her at all. I think it's ridiculous that she considers facebook her "living room." It most certainly is not. Furthermore, are her friends not to disagree with her in her living room? I have friends of different persuasions than myself all the time in my living room, debating topics we disagree on.

It's either cowardice or arrogance to want to make a claim with very strong implications and then saying "but no one is allowed to challenge me in any way or question what I say."

My advice: if you really value the friendship, just don't paste on her facebook account and don't broach the subject again. I don't think that it's worth breaking up the friendship over, even if she's being really ridiculous about it.

But if she wants to end the friendship with YOU just for disagreeing with her, my response would be "don't let the door hit you on the way out."

Some people have friends. Other people have life accessories, people who exist to entertain and validate them and act more or less like sycophants. When a person starts acting like an actual friend and not a life accessory, they can't handle it, because they think the point of their existence is to make them feel good about everything they do and say.

As a general side note, I personally think Facebook is just not a good environment for serious discussion. I don't use FB very often, but I keep it lite and don't get involved in any debates. My postings are limited to things like pictures from a trip, or "this DJ is spinning on Friday" or "This new restaurant opens next week."

[Amapola]

I don't understand. If she does not want you in her "living room" why does she not unfriend or block YOU? Why do YOU have to do that? Is the button broken on her computer?

If she is anxious to help others that is wonderful. I am sure others would like to hear alternate points of view, since they are the ones who ultimately decide what they will do and how they will run their lives. That seems to me incentive for her to allow others to see other points of view - it would help them.

And yes, my friends - my actual friends, that is - know how I feel about horrorscopes and so on but are still my friends. I always try to be polite, listen politely, and state my point of view respectfully. Heavens. Does your friend only want other friends who are her exact same religion, ethnic group, income group and gender? Surely at least SOME diversity is good for anyone!

[cambion]

I guess it depends. A few weeks ago a friend of mine posted about how she went to an acupuncturist to treat the painful lumps in her neck (!). She posted this a short while later:

"Nothing conclusive...It seems that I'm not getting enough oxygen to my brain. But I ain't just trippin' -- the lump in my neck is definitely there and causing all kinds of problems with the right side of my body. We shall see. I feel much better than I have all week, though! Just a little sore and sleepy."

All the comments were supportive of her decision to go to this needle-wielding clown, and several people assured her that acupuncture had healed "x" ailment for them in the past.

I told her as nicely as possible to get her butt to an doctor and not listed to a friggen acupuncturist. She ignored my plea and ended up being rushed to an emergency a few days later with infected lymph nodes.

The thing is, a lot of these people are only surrounded by an echo chamber of like-minded individuals, so I think it's important to expose them to the opposing view whenever possible. If someone outright says to stop it, I guess I would, but I'd rather be annoying than let this kind of stuff go unchallenged.

[The Man]

Well yeah - I do find it a little amusing on a certain level that while she is suggesting there are major conspiracies hiding the 'truth' about health care from the people, that a friend suggesting there are other ways to look at things is such a threat that she wants to end the friendship.

It does no good to be 'right' about something if one can't have any friends. Gah.


Well although unfriending her was a option she cited she did also give you the alternatives of...


block or ignore any status updates (of the health variety) you disagree with.


while specifically stating that what she did not want is a debate on her facebook page. For me that doesn't seem to be too unreasonable of a request from a friend. Invite her to your page for that debate if she is interested.

[IDB87]

What do you think? Should I just shut up and sit idly by while she posts what I consider irresponsible and incorrect information? Should I just write her off as a friend? Maybe she has already written me off anyways and it may no longer be in my control.



Yes. This borders on preaching. The person is not interested in what you have to say, and anything you mention after the fact will be met with resistance until she decides to unfriend you.

And besides, it's just facebook. It's almost as bad as debating on YouTube.

[Antiquehunter]

Well - I'm of two minds. Well perhaps more than two minds.

1) I realize its 'just' facebook. But as I mentioned that is about the only level of contact I have with this person on a regular basis at this juncture.

2) The comment about preaching stuck a chord - how would I feel about having a friend who wouldn't shut up at me regarding a religion? I would ask them to stop, and/or simply they would cease being a friend. However this issue (science/medicine) is definitely NOT religion.

3) She is being rather passive/aggressive about it - suggesting I should censor myself or I should be the one to 'defriend' her. But a friend wouldn't require someone to censor themselves as a term and condition of a friendship.

I realize this is all starting to look like making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill. But fundamentally, what is the point of skepticism in the first place, if one chooses to self-censor to protect people's sensitivities, or conversely, one never tries to make a difference by (politely) pointing out a logical point of view?

[Pyrts]

You can tweak your FB settings so it won't show certain things. Hover over the name, and a box will drop down with a couple of buttons -- look at the "subscribed" ones. Click off everything but "most important." That should let her FB games, video posts, news, etc slip from your FB reading and leave only the important stuff.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Well - I'm of two minds. Well perhaps more than two minds.

1) I realize its 'just' facebook. But as I mentioned that is about the only level of contact I have with this person on a regular basis at this juncture.

2) The comment about preaching stuck a chord - how would I feel about having a friend who wouldn't shut up at me regarding a religion? I would ask them to stop, and/or simply they would cease being a friend. However this issue (science/medicine) is definitely NOT religion.

3) She is being rather passive/aggressive about it - suggesting I should censor myself or I should be the one to 'defriend' her. But a friend wouldn't require someone to censor themselves as a term and condition of a friendship.

I realize this is all starting to look like making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill. But fundamentally, what is the point of skepticism in the first place, if one chooses to self-censor to protect people's sensitivities, or conversely, one never tries to make a difference by (politely) pointing out a logical point of view?

I think there's a very important distinction. If she's just saying "I don't want to debate on Facebook. Don't post stuff like that here" then again, I think she's being dumb, but it's not important enough to fight over. Just don't post it.

But if she in general doesn't let you disagree with her as a friend and feels that disagreeing with her is intolerable, then that's a much larger issue.

[Dunstan]

I think what you said was perfectly polite, nothing wrong with her at all. I think it's ridiculous that she considers facebook her "living room." It most certainly is not.

Facebook in general might not be, but I think her "wall" would be. But anyway, I agree with this part:

Furthermore, are her friends not to disagree with her in her living room? I have friends of different persuasions than myself all the time in my living room, debating topics we disagree on.

It's either cowardice or arrogance to want to make a claim with very strong implications and then saying "but no one is allowed to challenge me in any way or question what I say."

Exactly. It's one thing to say "let's not talk about this subject," or to ask people to drop it if the discussion is getting heated or going in circles or boring the non-participants. But if someone invites me into her living room and then insists that I never disagree with her, then I won't be in that living room very long.

My advice: if you really value the friendship, just don't paste on her facebook account and don't broach the subject again. I don't think that it's worth breaking up the friendship over, even if she's being really ridiculous about it.

Agreed. She's made her wishes clear, so at this point continuing to post corrections or disputes would cross the line into rude.

As a general side note, I personally think Facebook is just not a good environment for serious discussion. I don't use FB very often, but I keep it lite and don't get involved in any debates. My postings are limited to things like pictures from a trip, or "this DJ is spinning on Friday" or "This new restaurant opens next week."

One good thing about FB is that people don't seem to send these bits of misinformation out by mass email any more. My rule for that was: the first time you do it, I'll reply just to you with the info, after that it's time to break out the reply-to-all. Which got me dropped from some people's "mass email" list, which probably made everyone happier!

[Dunstan]

2) The comment about preaching stuck a chord - how would I feel about having a friend who wouldn't shut up at me regarding a religion? I would ask them to stop, and/or simply they would cease being a friend. However this issue (science/medicine) is definitely NOT religion.


I don't think the religion/not religion is the relevant issue here. Someone who "won't shut up" and/or looks to pick a fight on a subject all the time is annoying and rude regardless of the subject.

For example, if your friend was posting status updates like "busy afternoon -- have to walk the dog, visit the naturopath, and pick the kids up at school," and you were replying with a lecture about naturopathy, I'd be on her side and not yours. Not everything is an invitation to debate. But what she posted sounds like it was fair game to me.

Now that she's made her wishes clear, that's a different story. Your options are to play by her rules and hold your fire, or don't play at all (block her updates, unfriend her, whatever).

[The Norseman]

I agree about the passive/aggressive part. FB now has the option to tailor-make your Update Statuses. She can very easily make it so her friends who wish to read it can do so, while at the same time, *she* can show some sensitivity towards you and limit your view of those statuses.

But maybe that's just me. If I had a friend who I thought would not appreciate my Status or maybe constantly pick a fight with me over it (not saying this applies to the OP), I would simply not send those Statuses to that person. I wouldn't bitch at the other person until they blocked my Status posts.

Maybe she's not aware of this feature of FB, though (to give the benefit of the doubt) and if she knew about it, she'd simply use it and quit the drama queening.

[Marduk]

I guess sometimes being a friend means staying quiet. .

Thats true, however being an intelligent human being means you don't have to hang out on social networks with self induced retards,
;)

[Vic Vega]

I think her reply to you was quite reasonable. Most of us here would agree with the content of what you posted in reply to her woo, but there was and is no reason to do that to a friend on FB.

I have friends that believe in various forms of woo. I ignore it for the most part or will very gently disagree with them if they are discussing it when we are together. I would never, however, post something on FB like you did. It would never be appreciated by the poster and most of her friends who read it probably think you're a jerk.

[Antiquehunter]

Being a jerk would be saying 'You're wrong, I'm right'. I did not such thing. But thanks for your opinion.

Jerk.

[Safe-Keeper]

‎I post information like this for those of my friends that appreciate it and are looking for support in defending their choices. I would rather you unfriend me, block or ignore any status updates (of the health variety) you disagree with. I am not interested in inciting debate with you every time I help out my friends. I know where you stand on these issues. This is not a public forum, this is my livingroom and these are my friends. "Keeping an open mind" = subscribing to altmed philosophy, while reading and sharing only information that agrees with you and slamming any dissent as "close-minded":rolleyes:.

[bluesjnr]

Being a jerk would be saying 'You're wrong, I'm right'. I did not such thing. But thanks for your opinion.

Jerk.

That was completely uncalled for.

[welshdean]

As Kenny once said:

kn481KcjvMo

[John Albert]

When I first saw the thread title, I thought this thread was about a friend of yours dying because of choosing "alternative medicine" instead of real medicine. I must say I'm relieved that your friend is not in fact dying because of poor choices.

On the other hand, this person is actively recommending that other people make poor health choices, that very well might result in harm being done. In other words, they're part of the problem, and have the potential to cause harm to others through their spreading of misinformation.

From my point of view, this is a situation where you need to decide which is more important: your continued friendship with this person, or your desire to resist the promotion of harmful quackery. It's a very basic value judgment—which is not to say it's necessarily an easy decision to make—but nobody can make the decision but you.