The "New Industrial Revolution" II- Science Friday

[Bikewer]

Last week, I put up a post and a link to an NPR segment with Jeremy Riffkin promoting his "Third Industrial Revolution" ideas.
Essentially, energy being self-produced by factories, businesses, and individual homes, all tied in to a "smart grid" that would allocate resources and schedule production according to needs and such.
Riffkin envisioned massive employment opportunities in the design, installation, and maintenance of all this, with huge net gains for the energy sector and pollution control.


Seems to be an idea that's catching on, or at least others are competing...

Yesterday, on NPR's Science Friday, Ira Flatow interviewed Amory Lovins and his ideas for "Reinventing Fire".
Essentially the same idea as presented by Riffkin, with large-scale investments in individual energy production and the construction of a highly-efficient smart grid to handle it all.


These ideas would require subsidy, of course, and that might be more than a little bit of a sticking point in today's economic and government climate. Between heavy lobbying by the oil/gas industry. (Look at Perry's plan..) and an unwillingness to spend money on anything other than the military...

We are, if all goes as planned, going to have a large number of military personnel coming home and looking for jobs; this sort of thing would provide an ideal opportunity.

[Dinwar]

Why would it require subsidies? I mean, if I owned a home and could cut my energy bill by 90%, or eliminate it entirely, or actually SELL energy, I'd find a way to do it--so long as the means lasted long enough to pay for itself, I'd essentially be getting power for free, and who doesn't like free stuff?

[Beerina]

Hmmmm. One might think that. Or the savings are big exaggerations.

[Dinwar]

Here's something I've always wondered: Can they make a solar panel that would either directly or indirectly power a lawn mower? By that I mean, either mounted on the mower itself to generate the power, or mountable on top of a shed or wherever else you store your mower to power the battery? The USA wastes a huge amount of oil, both in terms of burning it and in terms of leaking it onto the ground (spills, improper maintenance, that kind of thing), all for the sake of grass. If someone were to make a solar-powered lawn mower it'd fix that problem pretty quickly. And while it's anecdotal, I've almost never mowed grass when it wasn't bright and sunny, so in my experience at least it's an ideal application of the technology. Get it in people's homes, get them used to working with it on a small scale, and then gradually scale up to full solar production in areas where it's viable. I mean, right now you're fighting inertia--if people were already familiar with the tech inertia would be on your side. It'd be a minor adaptation of what they already use, which is much, much easier to do than completely re-structuring someone's life.

[Pulvinar]

Here's something I've always wondered: Can they make a solar panel that would either directly or indirectly power a lawn mower?
Sure, can be done today: PV solar panels on your roof, an inverter, and a standard electric mower. I've used one (fairly quiet, just have to watch the cord). The panels should also be feeding the grid-- no sense in them doing nothing when there's sun and no grass to cut. For that matter, it would be more efficient to pass around a communal mower, or hire someone to come around with theirs and plug it in to your outlet.

[quarky]

Question lawns. We should get a net energy gain from such intensive agriculture; not an energy drain.

[Dinwar]

I'm all for native plants--I want to do as little as possible to keep my yard healthy, and native plants have evolved to thrive without any human intervention. :D

[catsmate1]

Here's something I've always wondered: Can they make a solar panel that would either directly or indirectly power a lawn mower? By that I mean, either mounted on the mower itself to generate the power, or mountable on top of a shed or wherever else you store your mower to power the battery? The USA wastes a huge amount of oil, both in terms of burning it and in terms of leaking it onto the ground (spills, improper maintenance, that kind of thing), all for the sake of grass. If someone were to make a solar-powered lawn mower it'd fix that problem pretty quickly. And while it's anecdotal, I've almost never mowed grass when it wasn't bright and sunny, so in my experience at least it's an ideal application of the technology. Get it in people's homes, get them used to working with it on a small scale, and then gradually scale up to full solar production in areas where it's viable. I mean, right now you're fighting inertia--if people were already familiar with the tech inertia would be on your side. It'd be a minor adaptation of what they already use, which is much, much easier to do than completely re-structuring someone's life.
I'm a little dubious about a directly powered one, without storage as the power consumption would require a large panel. However one that uses a PV panel to charge a battery for operation shouldn't be difficult. See here (http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/LeeMower.htm).

[quarky]

Being as 1 hp is roughly 750 watts, even a push power mower of the 3-6 hp variety would require a gigantic array to run directly from the sun. With storage, it would be do-able, being as lawn-mowing is an intermittent power consumption. Yet the cost would be prohibitive compared to the alternatives, except for the very wealthy that wanted to prove a point.

I have an idea about using a very high pressure water spray as an agricultural tool, including mowing. There would be no blade. The sharp stream would dissipate quickly, providing great safety. In conjunction with irrigation and application of chemicals, such a mower might be worth the tank of water it would need, as well as the on board generator for running the power washer rig.

I see I've drifted off-topic again, but not extremely.

[Pulvinar]

Being as 1 hp is roughly 750 watts, even a push power mower of the 3-6 hp variety would require a gigantic array to run directly from the sun. With storage, it would be do-able, being as lawn-mowing is an intermittent power consumption. Yet the cost would be prohibitive compared to the alternatives, except for the very wealthy that wanted to prove a point.

I have an idea about using a very high pressure water spray as an agricultural tool, including mowing. There would be no blade. The sharp stream would dissipate quickly, providing great safety. In conjunction with irrigation and application of chemicals, such a mower might be worth the tank of water it would need, as well as the on board generator for running the power washer rig.

I see I've drifted off-topic again, but not extremely.

Except you don't need 3-6 hp. I also agree with the posters above that we don't need lawn at all, but that aside, here are some actual items that I just pulled up (I'm sure there are better choices):

Kyocera KD210GX-LPU solar panel, 210W, $900, *8 = 1680W for $7200
Samlex PST-150S-24A inverter, 1500W, $465
Black & Decker MM1800 18" 12 amp, 110V corded mower, $180, = 1320W

No batteries needed. Though put it on the grid and any size array or mower would work.

[Pulvinar]

Getting cheaper:

Suntech STP180S-24 solar panel, 180W, $277, *9 = 1620W for $2500

[psionl0]

So far, when comparing the returns for investing in solar power with other forms of investments, I have found that paying off your credit card comes out as the biggest winner.

Solar power is better than letting your money sit in a bank account and generates a similar return to paying off your home mortgage depending on what the current interest rate is.

[Pulvinar]

So far, when comparing the returns for investing in solar power with other forms of investments, I have found that paying off your credit card comes out as the biggest winner.

Solar power is better than letting your money sit in a bank account and generates a similar return to paying off your home mortgage depending on what the current interest rate is.

How are you figuring that? Of course it depends on location, among other factors.

[Trakar]

Hmmmm. One might think that. Or the savings are big exaggerations.

or they require substantial initial investment to realize return.

[psionl0]

How are you figuring that? Of course it depends on location, among other factors.Basically, you calculate the amount you save on your energy bills each year as a percentage of the amount you invested in the setup. (It's a little bit more complicated than that because you have to factor in depreciation and maintenance but you get my drift).

That calculated percentage can be compared to the returns you get from other investments.