Wetware

[Hazel]

Quote: "As robotic devices replace human workers, end-users like customers and employees are taking on the remnant of the transaction that still requires wetware — a brain."

From: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/opinion/sunday/our-unpaid-extra-shadow-work.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&ref=general&src=me

Yes, that is page 2. That is what was sent to me. Page 1 says about the same thing. More and more customers are being required to do jobs that used to be done for them: checking out groceries; assembling furniture; etc.

All that said, I like the new word - Wetware - my brain.

[Yuri Nalyssus]

All that said, I like the new word - Wetware - my brain.
Funnily enough 'wetware' is a word I have been using for years - think I got it from a steam punk novel, though I can't be sure (got a few wetware issues m'self!)

Insufferably smug Yuri

[paiute]

Quote: "As robotic devices replace human workers, end-users like customers and employees are taking on the remnant of the transaction that still requires wetware — a brain."


My local supermarket removed the self checkout aisles. This seems to be a trend in the industry.

http://supermarketnews.com/retail_financial/albertsons_checkouts_0707/

[Hazel]

Funnily enough 'wetware' is a word I have been using for years - think I got it from a steam punk novel, though I can't be sure (got a few wetware issues m'self!)

Insufferably smug Yuri

I like the insinuation that any job requiring a brain needs be turned over to the customer. ;)

[Hazel]

My local supermarket removed the self checkout aisles. This seems to be a trend in the industry.

http://supermarketnews.com/retail_financial/albertsons_checkouts_0707/

I don't know where you live but I have a friend who just returned from four years in Wales. She said the checkout machine was constantly telling her to move faster.

Personally, I've never tried one. But I have a question. One thing I've wondered and you will know. Isn't there a possibility for cheating on those? Can't someone just fail to scan some items?

[Hoppy]

I don't know where you live but I have a friend who just returned from four years in Wales. She said the checkout machine was constantly telling her to move faster.

Personally, I've never tried one. But I have a question. One thing I've wondered and you will know. Isn't there a possibility for cheating on those? Can't someone just fail to scan some items?

The "bagging area" has a sensor that will detect items not scanned so
in theory no. Think people have suceeded in slight of hand after paying.
Another problem is the scanner can't tell if the tag actually belongs to the
item scanned. Items with loose bar codes can be switched.

Chicago area stores with self check outs will nag you about "unexpected item in bagging area" via robo-voice. Can almost be like having a wife again.

They do have attendants watching the self check outs that can help with
technical problems and are surely looking out for shoplifters as well.

[Pulvinar]

Isn't there a possibility for cheating on those? Can't someone just fail to scan some items?

Someone could just pocket an item and go through regular checkout. Someone could also get caught.

[thrombus29]

Funnily enough 'wetware' is a word I have been using for years - think I got it from a steam punk novel, though I can't be sure (got a few wetware issues m'self!)

Insufferably smug Yuri

Rudy Rucker's books, I thought this thread was a bout them, The first book was proto Cyberpunk, pre Neuromancer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetware_(novel)

[Bikewer]

I've been observing the self-checkout isles at the two stores I frequent the most. I usually shop at a slightly-upscale Dierberg's store. When first installed, the self-checkouts were frequented by folks who were obviously younger and/or computer savvy.
For these (myself included), they are quick and easy and also faster than the human-manned lanes. Also, no lame chit-chat...
However, some folks just don't get it. They show up with too many items, a fist-full of coupons, and want to pay in cash....All things that send the system into haywire mode.

Some folks obviously WANT the chit-chat; they see shopping as a social occasion. (much to the annoyance of folks waiting behind them.)

Now, at the Shop & Save store, it's for some reason different. This is a "bargain" store and features (for the most part) a lower-rent clientele. These folks, for some reason, see the self-checkout as party center. They will hang around the station, often with a large family, letting the kids scan things, standing there and chatting... And as well having problems trying to pay with cash.
(The machines do not, generally, like cash)
In both cases, the stores furnish an employee to monitor the lines and to assist customers that are having trouble.

Behavior at grocery check-outs would likely furnish a few graduate-level psychology papers....

[Hazel]

The "bagging area" has a sensor that will detect items not scanned so
in theory no. Think people have suceeded in slight of hand after paying.
Another problem is the scanner can't tell if the tag actually belongs to the
item scanned. Items with loose bar codes can be switched.

Chicago area stores with self check outs will nag you about "unexpected item in bagging area" via robo-voice. Can almost be like having a wife again.

They do have attendants watching the self check outs that can help with
technical problems and are surely looking out for shoplifters as well.

Think of all those "watchers" watching for cheats but we can't find an employee anywhere when we need help locating an item in the store. Or willing to help if you do nab one. I remember one who once told me "You'll have to wait. I'm taking inventory." And what was I waiting for? To pay for the items I was going to buy -- but didn't. Hope she enjoyed putting them back on the shelves. :D

[Hazel]

I've been observing the self-checkout isles at the two stores I frequent the most. I usually shop at a slightly-upscale Dierberg's store. When first installed, the self-checkouts were frequented by folks who were obviously younger and/or computer savvy.
For these (myself included), they are quick and easy and also faster than the human-manned lanes. Also, no lame chit-chat...
However, some folks just don't get it. They show up with too many items, a fist-full of coupons, and want to pay in cash....All things that send the system into haywire mode.

Some folks obviously WANT the chit-chat; they see shopping as a social occasion. (much to the annoyance of folks waiting behind them.)

Now, at the Shop & Save store, it's for some reason different. This is a "bargain" store and features (for the most part) a lower-rent clientele. These folks, for some reason, see the self-checkout as party center. They will hang around the station, often with a large family, letting the kids scan things, standing there and chatting... And as well having problems trying to pay with cash.
(The machines do not, generally, like cash)
In both cases, the stores furnish an employee to monitor the lines and to assist customers that are having trouble.

Behavior at grocery check-outs would likely furnish a few graduate-level psychology papers....

You can't pay with cash? And banks are going to start charging you to use your debit card? I am waiting to hear from the credit card industry. However, I doubt you can use those either since you have to sign a ticket.

All these new electronic creations are simly making life more complicated, don't you think? Or enriching the money people more?

[Pulvinar]

Think of all those "watchers" watching for cheats but we can't find an employee anywhere when we need help locating an item in the store. Or willing to help if you do nab one. I remember one who once told me "You'll have to wait. I'm taking inventory." And what was I waiting for? To pay for the items I was going to buy -- but didn't. Hope she enjoyed putting them back on the shelves. :D

There's just one watcher for all the machines at the stores I go to.

Seems to me you always have full-service choice. It's just usually slower or more expensive. Or you could always hire a butler to do all of this for you-- that would boost employment, too.

[Hazel]

There's just one watcher for all the machines at the stores I go to.

Seems to me you always have full-service choice. It's just usually slower or more expensive. Or you could always hire a butler to do all of this for you-- that would boost employment, too.

Now there is an idea! Do they still have butlers? Seriously, though, I was talking about when you want to know to which part of the store to go to find some item. That's different from wanting someone to check out my groceries.

[Lensman]

The self checkouts in the local supermarkets I go to all accept cash (notes or coins) or debit/credit cards - even cards that don't have a chip & pin system.

[GodMark2]

You can't pay with cash?

You can pay with cash, but if the bills wrinkled, or the coins slightly scuffed, or the scanner's covered in grease from the thousands of bills passed since the last cleaning, or...

The machines don't like cash much. Nor do the people behind the person trying to use cash.

[Hazel]

You can pay with cash, but if the bills wrinkled, or the coins slightly scuffed, or the scanner's covered in grease from the thousands of bills passed since the last cleaning, or...

The machines don't like cash much. Nor do the people behind the person trying to use cash.

Do you suppose maybe we people should all relax and be a bit more patient with each other? I think all this technology has made us too uptight. Because a computer works at the speed of light, we think we have to keep pace with it and be just as fast and just as efficient.

[Pulvinar]

Do you suppose maybe we people should all relax and be a bit more patient with each other? I think all this technology has made us too uptight. Because a computer works at the speed of light, we think we have to keep pace with it and be just as fast and just as efficient.

I think it works best when they have both kinds of lines. Just be sure to choose the right one and you (and those behind you) will be happy.

[Hazel]

I think it works best when they have both kinds of lines. Just be sure to choose the right one and you (and those behind you) will be happy.

Maybe. Some people are never happy - unless they have something to be unhappy about. :(

I am abiding by your wishes, though. I do not try to check out my own groceries or to do anything else that requires technology I've not mastered - which I fear is most technology. :covereyes

[Tomblvd]

Funnily enough 'wetware' is a word I have been using for years - think I got it from a steam punk novel, though I can't be sure (got a few wetware issues m'self!)

Insufferably smug Yuri

IIRC, the term "wetware" is used in some sci-fi novels to describe robotic enhancements that are "wet wired" into the body.

"Wet" referring to blood, I guess.

[fuelair]

Funnily enough 'wetware' is a word I have been using for years - think I got it from a steam punk novel, though I can't be sure (got a few wetware issues m'self!)

Insufferably smug Yuri

Wetware_ wetwork, it's all in a spook's job description. Ask Helen Mirren: "We kill people, dear." (RED) (Retired - Extremely Dangerous):D:D:D:jaw-dropp

[Modified]

You can pay with cash, but if the bills wrinkled, or the coins slightly scuffed, or the scanner's covered in grease from the thousands of bills passed since the last cleaning, or...

The machines don't like cash much. Nor do the people behind the person trying to use cash.

I use the self checkouts at Lowe's or Home Depot specifically to get rid of change, but there is never a line to use them so nobody to complain as I plunk in $10 worth.

[rjh01]

Our supermarket has had self serve for a couple of years. When it first came out we had the problem of "unexpected item in bagging area." Now I can transfer any item onto the floor as soon as I have scanned it. There are five checkouts, and only one person, mostly doing nothing, supervising. There is frequently a queue. I have no problems with it accepting notes and coins.

[psionl0]

Seems to me you always have full-service choice. It's just usually slower or more expensive. Or you could always hire a butler to do all of this for you-- that would boost employment, too.
At busy times, a self service checkout is no better for a customer than a full service checkout. In fact, the queue is probably slower because the customers are not too good with these "new fangled" things.

Where self service checkouts shine is during the non-busy periods. There is always a checkout immediately available and shoppers don't have to queue up for the only checkout operator that has been rostered on.

[gph]

I don't use self checkouts for the same reason I don't clean my table at a fast food restaurant. They both permanently remove jobs from low income people or kids. If everyone did it there would be no checkout jobs and no job for a kid cleaning tables at McDs

[zooterkin]

Funnily enough 'wetware' is a word I have been using for years - think I got it from a steam punk novel, though I can't be sure (got a few wetware issues m'self!)

Insufferably smug Yuri

I'm pretty sure I first heard it when I was at college, studying computer science, so that's nearly 30 years ago.

Very old zooterkin

[sadhatter]

Do you suppose maybe we people should all relax and be a bit more patient with each other? I think all this technology has made us too uptight. Because a computer works at the speed of light, we think we have to keep pace with it and be just as fast and just as efficient.

Not really, i think people need to realize that a purchasing adventure, be it groceries, movies, or other should be done in as effeciant of a manner as possible. No yakking with the cashier, no talking to me when your second in line, leading to a delay as you finish up the conversation, no hanging out with a group of friends around the doors to the store, no letting your kids run about the place wild and free.

The thing is, there are other people in the world. I'm not going to freak out at someone who is in a wheelchair, or has limited mobility, but not wasting time for reasons well within your control, is making the rest of us have to spend more time doing something we would rather not.

It is not that technology has made anyone more uptight, it is that some folks use shopping as a social adventure, while the rest of us want to get our stuff, and get out.

And be honest, even those out there that do this, don't want to be bothered by it. If there was a " Wastin time and yakkin " line , where all these things were not taboo , no one would choose to go to that line. Though i have a sneaking suspicion that the people that rightfully should be there would still be doing the same thing in other lines.

[fuelair]

Wiki notices it by 1987 in cyberpunk use (wetware)

[OnlyTellsTruths]

I don't use self checkouts for the same reason I don't clean my table at a fast food restaurant. They both permanently remove jobs from low income people or kids. If everyone did it there would be no checkout jobs and no job for a kid cleaning tables at McDs

You don't clean your table at fast food restaurants? Do you mean that you don't throw your trash away and put the tray up?

I'm pretty sure that would just cause more work for someone who already has a job, not create a new job....

The only way I could see it creating a new job and not causing more work for a current employee is if everyone did it.... and no one does that. Everyone cleans up their own table at fast food restaurants.

[sadhatter]

I don't use self checkouts for the same reason I don't clean my table at a fast food restaurant. They both permanently remove jobs from low income people or kids. If everyone did it there would be no checkout jobs and no job for a kid cleaning tables at McDs

This line of logic is flawed.

There is no specific person to clean the tables, it is done by employees that have other responsibilities. Should they not be spending the time ( or as much time) cleaning your table they could be spending that time cleaning the bathroom, helping out the other staff so food is done quicker, or any of the other dozen or so customer service issues.

It is not like the boss says " Oh, there is a lot of dirty tables, better hire another table cleaner." the work simply gets put to the existing staff. And as a job with a high turnover rate, if one person is overworked they are not going to hire more, they are going to fire that person and burn out the next one.

You are not creating jobs, you are making someone's job harder.

[gph]

You don't clean your table at fast food restaurants? Do you mean that you don't throw your trash away and put the tray up?

I'm pretty sure that would just cause more work for someone who already has a job, not create a new job....

The only way I could see it creating a new job and not causing more work for a current employee is if everyone did it.... and no one does that. Everyone cleans up their own table at fast food restaurants.I know lots do but I never have. I also I know lots of people have a culturally induced repulsion to me not doing it. It's definitely not a biological repulsion because the same reaction doesn't exist in a normal restaurant. It's the same reaction I see to questioning why we remove our hats at a national anthem singing or similar event. People are repulsed by it but very few know why.

But to the job question. The more people do it the less work is available. At some point a job is dropped and someone else gets more work.

[gph]

This line of logic is flawed.

There is no specific person to clean the tables, it is done by employees that have other responsibilities. Should they not be spending the time ( or as much time) cleaning your table they could be spending that time cleaning the bathroom, helping out the other staff so food is done quicker, or any of the other dozen or so customer service issues.

It is not like the boss says " Oh, there is a lot of dirty tables, better hire another table cleaner." the work simply gets put to the existing staff. And as a job with a high turnover rate, if one person is overworked they are not going to hire more, they are going to fire that person and burn out the next one.

You are not creating jobs, you are making someone's job harder.See my answer to OnlyTellsTruths

[gph]

This is the same as self serve gas stations. One kid used to do two pumps. Now one kid does a dozen pumps. Granted we now know pumping gas isn't healthy but that wasn't the reason for the change. It was people pumping their own gas.

[Vermonter]

I think it's silly that some states have made it illegal for a customer to pump their own gas, especially with the advent of pay-at-the-pump systems. Quite frankly, I love self-checkout lanes and I love pumping my own gas. It's much quicker for me to pull up, feed it my credit card, and fill up, or go up to the register, check out my goods (which is always a small number) and head out. And yes, I clear my own table when I go to the fast food joint, as in I throw the stuff out into the trash and return the tray. I don't see why anyone would just...leave their wrappers and tray on the table. It's downright rude.

[rjh01]

I think it's silly that some states have made it illegal for a customer to pump their own gas, especially with the advent of pay-at-the-pump systems. Quite frankly, I love self-checkout lanes and I love pumping my own gas. It's much quicker for me to pull up, feed it my credit card, and fill up, or go up to the register, check out my goods (which is always a small number) and head out. And yes, I clear my own table when I go to the fast food joint, as in I throw the stuff out into the trash and return the tray. I don't see why anyone would just...leave their wrappers and tray on the table. It's downright rude.
I agree 100%. Doing this may give lower prices and so we can spend more money on things that matter, like pay off debts.

[Wudang]

I hate the self-service checkouts as I'm a computer programmer. Every time the damned machine tells me to do something that I have already done irritates me. Use a *********** interrupt handler you ****!

And yes "wetware" easily goes back to the 80s.

[epepke]

Wiki notices it by 1987 in cyberpunk use (wetware)

http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/08/25/what-is-wetware/

[rjh01]

I hate the self-service checkouts as I'm a computer programmer. Every time the damned machine tells me to do something that I have already done irritates me. Use a *********** interrupt handler you ****!

And yes "wetware" easily goes back to the 80s.

They need two levels of instructions
1. For people who are not used to the machines
2. For people who use them everyday.

When I used IBM mainframe software we had three levels of error messages. One was a very brief message that came up if you did something wrong; the second was a full line giving all the details; the third was the help page on the topic.

[Cheetah]

Oh boy, I've never even heard of a self checkout thingie in a supermarket or been to a gas station where I can pump my own gas! You people have all the fun.

[zooterkin]

Oh boy, I've never even heard of a self checkout thingie in a supermarket or been to a gas station where I can pump my own gas! You people have all the fun.

Oh, yes, the fun of spilling petrol over your shoes, or having a machine complaining about "an unexpected item in the bagging area"... :)

[Segnosaur]

I don't use self checkouts for the same reason I don't clean my table at a fast food restaurant. They both permanently remove jobs from low income people or kids. If everyone did it there would be no checkout jobs and no job for a kid cleaning tables at McDs
On the other hand, if eating at McDs is cheaper than a more "formal" restaurant, or if the self-checkouts allow stores to cut prices, that means that you (as a consumer) will have more money to spend in other establishments or at other stores, this providing more jobs in other areas.

[SumDood]

I love the new self-checkout lanes at my local grocery, but I still use the human lines when the wait will be shorter.

What I'm waiting for is a 'smart' shopping cart. One that you can upload a shopping list to, with a display screen showing a map of the store where all your items would be and tracks the total of your purchases. Probably not a good idea from a business stand point because stores profit from 'impulse buys'.

<--googles 'smart shopping cart'-->

Well there you go:
Smart Shopping Cart (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/5462556/ns/today-food/t/we-check-out-latest-supermarket-smart-cart/#.Tq7BKJs4_34)

So maybe 2 years before they go mainstream?

[Hellbound]

I love the new self-checkout lanes at my local grocery, but I still use the human lines when the wait will be shorter.

What I'm waiting for is a 'smart' shopping cart. One that you can upload a shopping list to, with a display screen showing a map of the store where all your items would be and tracks the total of your purchases. Probably not a good idea from a business stand point because stores profit from 'impulse buys'.

<--googles 'smart shopping cart'-->

Well there you go:
Smart Shopping Cart (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/5462556/ns/today-food/t/we-check-out-latest-supermarket-smart-cart/#.Tq7BKJs4_34)

So maybe 2 years before they go mainstream?

Even better, give it a robotic arm and a motor. Then I can give it my list, and it can go get things off the shelves. It could even communicate with my smartphone:

"You asked for "wheat bread", we have three brands:
1.Wonder at $1.25
2.Sunshine at $1.47
3.Generic at $.73. Which would you like?"
Please enter your selection (1,2,3):"

I could spend my shopping time sitting in a lounge, having a drink and watching the news :)

[Modified]

I hate the self-service checkouts as I'm a computer programmer. Every time the damned machine tells me to do something that I have already done irritates me. Use a *********** interrupt handler you ****!

-scan- "beep" "Please scan your first item."

Happens every time.

[Wudang]

I'm waiting for one to say "I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the store. And I want to help you."

[Silly Green Monkey]

During the times I tend to shop (before 6 am) there are no checkers on the line, they're all working on the shelves and only the self-checkers are available. I don't tend to have the problems you've seen, I tend to make mistakes entering vegetable numbers.

McDs employees (like all fast food employees) are not paid to CLEAR the tables, just to WIPE them. By leaving your trash all over the table instead of putting it in the clearly marked receptacle (do you think the trash cans are labeled for stupid employees?) you are creating more work for people with other stuff to do, annoying them and wasting their time, and making yourself look like a pig.

[psionl0]

I could spend my shopping time sitting in a lounge, having a drink and watching the news :)You can do that now.

Many supermarkets will deliver goods ordered from them through the internet.

[Hazel]

During the times I tend to shop (before 6 am) there are no checkers on the line, they're all working on the shelves and only the self-checkers are available. I don't tend to have the problems you've seen, I tend to make mistakes entering vegetable numbers.

McDs employees (like all fast food employees) are not paid to CLEAR the tables, just to WIPE them. By leaving your trash all over the table instead of putting it in the clearly marked receptacle (do you think the trash cans are labeled for stupid employees?) you are creating more work for people with other stuff to do, annoying them and wasting their time, and making yourself look like a pig.

Perhaps wake up and smell the coffee? Employers ask customers to do the work so they don't have to hire more employees or pay their current employees to do more work for more pay.

And it isn't just fast food and grocery stores doing it. Try getting a moving company to pack "everything" as you ask. They'll bring used, damaged, soiled boxes and tell you to pack most of it yourself and they'll do the fragile things. That way you work full time for free while their packers work part time and struggle to get by.

Or furniture companies that are incapable of assembling their own product which often refuses to fit together rightly. Next thing you know, artists will furnish the canvas and paints and tell us to "do it yourself".

Speaking from experience I am. Maybe people could have a living wage if employers weren't making customers do their work for free - and still charging full price.

[Cayvmann]

I like the insinuation that any job requiring a brain needs be turned over to the customer. ;)

The customer is always right, right?

[rjh01]

The customer is always right, right?

The customer can be right out of their mind. Or they can be misinformed.

[progressquest]

I have an excellent reply to this thread, but you will have to wait for the courier I hired to hand-deliver the message to all participators of this thread.

I would've included it in this reply, but I was worried that using a more efficient method would cause further job loss.

[Wudang]

The customer is always right, right?
http://notalwaysright.com/

[Complexity]

My local supermarket removed the self checkout aisles. This seems to be a trend in the industry.

http://supermarketnews.com/retail_financial/albertsons_checkouts_0707/


I can't tell you how much this will anger autistic people.

I will wait in line for the self checkout aisles for ten minutes rather than go to a regular checkout line that has no waiting. I want to minimize my interactions with other people.

[Mark6]

Funnily enough 'wetware' is a word I have been using for years - think I got it from a steam punk novel, though I can't be sure (got a few wetware issues m'self!)

Insufferably smug Yuri
Rudy Rucker's series: "Software", "Wetware", "Freeware". There may be more by now -- I never got past "Wetware".

And it's cyberpunk, not steampunk.

[CapelDodger]

Even better, give it a robotic arm and a motor. Then I can give it my list, and it can go get things off the shelves.

My thought exactly. Kick back, have a coffee, check out the other singles.

[CapelDodger]

Speaking from experience I am. Maybe people could have a living wage if employers weren't making customers do their work for free - and still charging full price.

Actually, "full price" now is a lot less than it was when you queued at a counter. In several shops. It's a win-win for consumers and retail productivity.

Shop-work has never been well-paid, but it should at least be liveable. Otherwise, where's the next generation of shop-workers to come from?

[CapelDodger]

Funnily enough 'wetware' is a word I have been using for years - think I got it from a steam punk novel, though I can't be sure (got a few wetware issues m'self!)

Insufferably smug Yuri

It was current in the IT world by at least the late-60's. Hardware, software, and wetware - users. You can design test-plans for hardware and software, but not for wetware. Make it idiot-proof and have your conception of "idiot" re-calibrated. Again.

[dlorde]

I'm waiting for one to say "I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the store. And I want to help you."

"Open the bagging area doors, Hal."

"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that. There's an unexpected item in the bagging area."