No evolution for Italian teens

[Abdul Alhazred]

Not only in America:

Tens of thousands of Italians have expressed their disagreement
with a plan by the minister of education, universities, and research,
Letizia Moratti, to ban the teaching of evolutionary theory to young
teenagers.

Fearing the measure will pave the way for creationist teaching, more
than 40,000 citizens -- and the number is still increasing -- have
subscribed a petition launched last week by some of the country's
top scientists through the daily La Repubblica.

Please click the link before commenting:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040428/04

[Jas]

Hmmm...wonder what religion the minster of education is over there?

[Riddick]

Italy population: 57,000,000

[Fordama]

Strange, considering how the Pope has pretty much acknowledged the legitimacy of evolution.

Fordama

[Abdul Alhazred]

Update: She backed down.

Darwin back in Italy's schools (http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040429/01)

Pressed by a petition signed by some of the country's top scientists,
and inundated by thousands of protest E-mails and faxes, Italy's
minister of education, universities, and research, Letizia Moratti,
reconsidered on Wednesday evening (April 28) her position on the
teaching of evolution, stating that the theory will be taught starting
from primary school.
If only it were so easy in the USA.

[Brian the Snail]

Originally posted by Fordama
Strange, considering how the Pope has pretty much acknowledged the legitimacy of evolution.

That's true, but from what I've read, it seems that older students were still going to be taught evolution. So I don't think there were any sinister religious motives involved in this decision, just practicalities. And the speed at which the minister involved reconsidered seems to support that view.

I certainly haven't heard of anything like what goes on in parts of the US with Intelligent Design and Wedge strategies and all that crap. Europe tends to be somewhat free of all that rubbish (though of course, plenty of other rubbish goes on instead).

[Luciano]

The absence of evolution was only, I believe, an error, caused by the fact Letizia Moratti is a moron.
She's trying to divert funds from the public schools to the private, catholic schools :mad:

It's a hot, hard topic in Italy right now and my English isn't good ebough to talk about it, but creationism isn't an issue.
If someone should suggest to teach it in the schools the proposal would end suddenly amongst the laughters of all the Italians :D

Ciao
Luciano

[wollery]

Originally posted by Riddick
Italy population: 57,000,000 Thank you for that fascinating statistic, was there a point in your posting it?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by wollery
Thank you for that fascinating statistic, was there a point in your posting it? I was guessing that he was trying to imply that while 40,000 people were against the evolution ban, since there are 57,000,000 residents in Italy, obviously 56,960,000 people must be for the ban. :rolleyes:

[geni]

Originally posted by Brian the Snail
I certainly haven't heard of anything like what goes on in parts of the US with Intelligent Design and Wedge strategies and all that crap. Europe tends to be somewhat free of all that rubbish (though of course, plenty of other rubbish goes on instead).

So the large creationist display that turned up at my uni didn't happen right?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Luciano
The absence of evolution was only, I believe, an error, caused by the fact Letizia Moratti is a moron.
She's trying to divert funds from the public schools to the private, catholic schools :mad:

It's a hot, hard topic in Italy right now and my English isn't good ebough to talk about it, but creationism isn't an issue.
If someone should suggest to teach it in the schools the proposal would end suddenly amongst the laughters of all the Italians :D

Ciao
Luciano

Some of my ancestors left Italy because they were going hungry. Needless to say this was a very long time ago.

Is the Roman Catholic church still the official religion? And what is the official RC position on evolution? I said official, obviously the rank and file (in Italy) are sensible on this issue.

[Brian the Snail]

Originally posted by geni


So the large creationist display that turned up at my uni didn't happen right?

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post. I was talking specifically about people trying to get creationism/intelligent design/critiques of evolution taught in schools, which I haven't heard much of in Europe (though IIRC there was a bit of a fuss a year or two ago about a college in Gateshead that was teaching ID).

I'm sure there's creationists everywhere, especially now with the joys of the internet. Though I didn't realise that they're starting to put up displays in universities. What happened, exactly?

[geni]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
And what is the official RC position on evolution?
http://www.origins.org/mc/resources/pope.html

Basicly it boild down to; science can do the evolution bit and the church will keep the theology.

[geni]

Originally posted by Brian the Snail
I'm sure there's creationists everywhere, especially now with the joys of the internet. Though I didn't realise that they're starting to put up displays in universities. What happened, exactly?

It was Islamic week or something and the islamic socirty put up a stand in the union. They had invided in an asscosation who seem to do quite a lot of this kind of event. Unfortunetly their version of Islam supports creationism.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by geni


It was Islamic week or something and the islamic socirty put up a stand in the union. They had invided in an asscosation who seem to do quite a lot of this kind of event. Unfortunetly their version of Islam supports creationism.

So it's Muslims driving this? In Italy of all places? Wow!

What 'version' of Islam supports the infidel theory of evolution? If none (as it is), don't say 'version'.

Yes many Muslims are tolerant, but that's because they are decent human beings, not because of some evolutionary 'version' of their religion.

There are evolutionary versions of Christianity (which I think are silly, but that's another thread).

There are no evolutionary versions of Islam. And the burden of proof is not on me, so don't say "prove it", you prove there are.

[Brian the Snail]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


So it's Muslims driving this? In Italy of all places? Wow!

I think geni was responding to my (off topic) question about creationists putting up a display at his university in the UK.

[geni]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
What 'version' of Islam supports the infidel theory of evolution? If none (as it is), don't say 'version'.

I've seen one person argue that evolutionm is mentioned in the koran but I will admit that for some reason the muslims I have known have seemed to have problems with evolution.

this is the article (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/nov96.html)

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by geni


I've seen one person argue that evolutionm is mentioned in the koran but I will admit that for some reason the muslims I have known have seemed to have problems with evolution.

this is the article (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/nov96.html)

Very interesting. But this view represents no known sect.

[Eos of the Eons]

http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040429/01/

Evolution back after all that.


"It is absolutely false that the ministry banned the teaching of evolution theories in primary and secondary schools. The discussion of Darwin's theories will be included in the education of all students from 6 to 18 years, according to gradual teaching criteria," she said.


They point out there was a 'misunderstanding'.

:)

[Luciano]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred

Some of my ancestors left Italy because they were going hungry. Needless to say this was a very long time ago.

Is the Roman Catholic church still the official religion? And what is the official RC position on evolution? I said official, obviously the rank and file (in Italy) are sensible on this issue.
IIRC (I was catholic until 28 years ago) the Church accept evolution as a scientific theory and the Bible as the (allegoric) word of God. Many Jesuits are scientist and haven't problems with evolution.
In Italy there isn't no more the official religion but it has still many advantages.
In the schools (public schools :mad: ) there are weekly lessons of "religion" but they teach only catholicism, often the teacher is a priest.
The good thing is the teaching of religion helped me (and many others) to become an agnostic and then an atheist.
The most part of Italians believe in some kind of catholic God, with a vague trust in the RCC, but less and less go to mass more than Easter and Christmas.
In many regions there are strong historical anticlerical feelings, as in many parts of Tuscany, Emilia Romagna and Lombardy.

My own evolution is typical: anticlerical at 10 (after 2 weeks in a mountain resort managed by nuns), agnostic at 17/18 and then atheist. At 28 I became a Buddhist, but that's another story :D

Ciao
Luciano

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Luciano

IIRC (I was catholic until 28 years ago) the Church accept evolution as a scientific theory and the Bible as the (allegoric) word of God. Many Jesuits are scientist and haven't problems with evolution.
In Italy there isn't no more the official religion but it has still many advantages.
In the schools (public schools :mad: ) there are weekly lessons of "religion" but they teach only catholicism, often the teacher is a priest.
The good thing is the teaching of religion helped me (and many others) to become an agnostic and then an atheist.
The most part of Italians believe in some kind of catholic God, with a vague trust in the RCC, but less and less go to mass more than Easter and Christmas.
In many regions there are strong historical anticlerical feelings, as in many parts of Tuscany, Emilia Romagna and Lombardy.

My own evolution is typical: anticlerical at 10 (after 2 weeks in a mountain resort managed by nuns), agnostic at 17/18 and then atheist. At 28 I became a Buddhist, but that's another story :D

Ciao
Luciano

Buddhist, eh? Very interesting. Thank you.

Would that American Protestants were so sweet about science.

[Luciana]

Just to add some confusion...

The governor of Rio, a Protestant woman, has said she believes in m, and that it should be taught in the state's schools as an "option" to evolutionism.

The debate has just started. I know that the *minimum* curriculum is set by the federal government, but I am not sure of how much the state can add to that curriculum. I am sure, though, that this proposal will encounter fierce opposition, as Brazilian politicians, historically, ascribe to the separation of Church and State. We folllow the French tradition in this regard. Actually, Brazil is the only, if not one of the few, secular countries in Latin American. All (most of?) the others have the RCC as the official religion.

It seems to now some people are trying to emulate the US in this respect. I'm afraid other religious leaders/politicians around the world will press for creationism at schools.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Just to add some confusion...

The governor of Rio, a Protestant woman, has said she believes in ...

Nothing is ever finally settled.

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."

[Ratman_tf]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I was guessing that he was trying to imply that while 40,000 people were against the evolution ban, since there are 57,000,000 residents in Italy, obviously 56,960,000 people must be for the ban. :rolleyes:

That conclusion would be so ignorant, childish and stupid that I wouldn't even presume to attribute it to Riddick.

At least, I seriously hope that wasn't his point.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Just to add some confusion...

It seems to now some people are trying to emulate the US in this respect. I'm afraid other religious leaders/politicians around the world will press for creationism at schools.

Scary thought. They already have churches, so they don't need schools teaching it as well. They can have hours each week devoted to creationism, and they do. So why the push to add it to schools as well? There are Christian schools already too.

What about other religions that don't teach creationism? Won't that be stepping on their feet? If anything, make the darn class optional.

If you ask me, this push on the school is a show of what control freaks they are. All they have is never enough. They have to ram their religion down EVERY throat.