the results compel me to suspend my disbelief

[Donks]

Originally posted by Prester John
Have you ever considered that its because of people like olaf that some MDs might prescribe homeopathy :D

If Olaf goes to an non-homeopath MD once in a while, the poor doctor must rip his/her hair out every time Olaf walks through the door.

[qII]

i'm still waiting for someone to successfully explain away the findings of the following study:

"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water.

"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/A...,4152521,00.htm

[Timble]

We have. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Can't be reproduced by following the protocol.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
i'm still waiting for someone to successfully explain away the findings of the following study:


You've been shown the problem many many times.

[qII]

you have not shown anything other than some ridiculous TV stunt that used a different protocol.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
you have not shown anything other than some ridiculous TV stunt that used a different protocol.

Once again you are making a very serius acusation. Prove that the BBC used a different protcol.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by olaf
i'm still waiting for someone to successfully explain away the findings of the following study:

"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water.

"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/A...,4152521,00.htm Your link seems to be busted. Here's a link from The Guardian that works:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1159913,00.html

For some therapies, including autogenic training (a self-help technique based on auto-hypnosis), homeopathy, relaxation and yoga, research is inconclusive. ...a Cochrane review of homeopathy for asthma showed "not enough evidence to reliably assess the possible role of homeopathy in asthma". Our own study in this area, published after this review, also failed to yield any evidence in favour of homeopathy. This is my favorite bit:

But many providers of complementary medicine are still overtly or covertly against the scientific investigation of their patch. They insist that complementary therapies are too subtle, holistic or individualised for rigorous research. If this were true, they should be honest and admit that this takes complementary medicine into the realm of religion - medicine, by definition, does not defy science. · Edzard Ernst is professor of complementary medicine at the Peninsula Medical School, Universities of Exeter and Plymouth

[Capsid]

Originally quoted by Olaf

"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings."

Does anyone know if Ennis has started searching for a "rational explanantion" since the original 2001 study? The usual reason for not publishing more findings is because the results could not be reproduced.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf
you have not shown anything other than some ridiculous TV stunt that used a different protocol.

Hardly a ridiculous TV stunt. Funny how you can use TV to back up your findings, but skeptics can't point out even one publicly aired event.

And you, Xanta, have not shown one viable repeatable study that homeopathy even works at all. You have not shown how Rolfe is a liar about acupuncture. You have not shown how Claus or any other skeptic is a brain dead depressive. You have not shown how Geni is an idiot. You have not actually contacted the moderators or administrators to get me kicked off the board. You have not shown how "Soapy Sam is on to Rolfe's deceit."

Even the better Turing machines have more credible answers.

[qII]

Originally posted by Psiload
Your link seems to be busted. Here's a link from The Guardian that works:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1159913,00.html

This is my favorite bit:

· Edzard Ernst is professor of complementary medicine at the Peninsula Medical School, Universities of Exeter and Plymouth

those clowns are on a mission to trash chinese medicine and homeopathy. there are 1000's of these clowns running around.

[qII]

all i can say is--




. 100,000 european medical doctors!!!!! .

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


those clowns are on a mission to trash chinese medicine and homeopathy. there are 1000's of these clowns running around.

More conspirocy theories?

[qII]

100,000 medical doctors --- has you baffled doesn't it? -------:D

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
all i can say is--




. 100,000 european medical doctors!!!!! .

I think we kinda noticed. What we didn't notce was a source for your claims

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
100,000 medical doctors --- has you baffled doesn't it? -------:D

Yes it is quite bafferling why someone would come onto a skeptics board and repeat the same claim over and over again without providing any evidence to back it up

[Timble]

Not, in the least, there's far more who don't use homeopathy.

BTW: Where in the Guardian article does it set out to trash Chinese Medicine? It says that it's inconclusive in studies on eczema/atopic dermatitis.

And Chinese medicine is a different beast from homeopathy, it uses a range of techniques including herbs that have pharmacological activity.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by geni


I think we kinda noticed. What we didn't notce was a source for your claims The smell alone should tip you off to where exactly she pulled that steaming nugget from.

[Fordama]

Originally posted by olaf


those clowns are on a mission to trash chinese medicine and homeopathy. there are 1000's of these clowns running around. The old ad hominem.

I think these "clowns" are trying to save lives. Homeopathy is a distraction from actual treatment--basically meaning it kills.

Fordama

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Timble
Not, in the least, there's far more who don't use homeopathy.

BTW: Where in the Guardian article does it set out to trash Chinese Medicine? It says that it's inconclusive in studies on eczema/atopic dermatitis.

And Chinese medicine is a different beast from homeopathy, it uses a range of techniques including herbs that have pharmacological activity.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't consider homeopathy to be in a league anywhere close to Chinese Medicine. Don't even try to hook your wagon to that horse, olaf. Holding homeopathy up against Chinese Medicine will only make the case for homeopathy that much weaker, and that much more transparently foolish.

If nothing else, Chinese Medicine is, at the very least, detectable.

[qII]

Originally posted by Psiload


I can only speak for myself, but I don't consider homeopathy to be in a league anywhere close to Chinese Medicine. Don't even try to hook your wagon to that horse, olaf. Holding homeopathy up against Chinese Medicine will only make the case for homeopathy that much weaker, and that much more transparently foolish.

If nothing else, Chinese Medicine is, at the very least, detectable.

you better not tell that to rolfe. speaking of her, will someone tell her to take me off of ignore (same with zep). i find it intolerably rude that they would resort to such a tactic.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by olaf


you better not tell that to rolfe. speaking of her, will someone tell her to take me off of ignore (same with zep). i find it intolerably rude that they would resort to such a tactic.

I'm sure Rolfe would agree with me in regards to Chinese Medicine vs. homeopathy.

Speaking of intolerably rude... when can we expect the next blast out of your spam cannon?

[qII]

Originally posted by Psiload


I'm sure Rolfe would agree with me in regards to Chinese Medicine vs. homeopathy.

Speaking of intolerably rude... when can we expect the next blast out of your spam cannon?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9708713&dopt=Abstract

Homeopathic vs conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study.

Weiser M, Strosser W, Klein P.

OBJECTIVE: To compare the efficacy and safety of a homeopathic remedy (Vertigoheel, Heel Inc, Albuquerque, NM) vs betahistine hydrochloride (active control) in the treatment of patients with vertigo of various origins in a confirmative equivalence trial. DESIGN: Randomized (1:1) double-blind controlled clinical trial. SETTING: Fifteen study centers (general practice) in Germany between November 1995 and November 1996. SUBJECTS: A total of 119 patients with vertigo of various origins


CONCLUSIONS: Concerning the main efficacy variable, therapeutic equivalence between the homeopathic remedy and betahistine could be shown with statistical significance (confirmative analysis). Both remedies reduced the frequency, duration, and intensity of vertigo attacks during a 6-week treatment period. Also, vertigo-specific complaints were significantly reduced in both treatment groups.

[qII]

www.thymos.com/mind/zohar.html
http://www.purifymind.com/WuantumMechnicalMod.htm
a french physicist –alain aspect -- has proven some remarkable phenomena. Elementary particles are affected by connections that exist unseen across time and space.
2 electrons once correlated can maintian their connection over distance.
Zohar writes that our brain cells are sensitive enough to register the absorption of a single photon….. and thus is capable of being influenced by odd, quantum level behavior.
ahhh ---very interesting. i thought that it would boil down to something like this

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9708713&dopt=Abstract

Homeopathic vs conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study.

Weiser M, Strosser W, Klein P.

OBJECTIVE: To compare the efficacy and safety of a homeopathic remedy (Vertigoheel, Heel Inc, Albuquerque, NM) vs betahistine hydrochloride (active control) in the treatment of patients with vertigo of various origins in a confirmative equivalence trial. DESIGN: Randomized (1:1) double-blind controlled clinical trial. SETTING: Fifteen study centers (general practice) in Germany between November 1995 and November 1996. SUBJECTS: A total of 119 patients with vertigo of various origins


CONCLUSIONS: Concerning the main efficacy variable, therapeutic equivalence between the homeopathic remedy and betahistine could be shown with statistical significance (confirmative analysis). Both remedies reduced the frequency, duration, and intensity of vertigo attacks during a 6-week treatment period. Also, vertigo-specific complaints were significantly reduced in both treatment groups.

Translation neither homeopathy or the drug worked.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
www.thymos.com/mind/zohar.html
http://www.purifymind.com/WuantumMechnicalMod.htm
a french physicist –alain aspect -- has proven some remarkable phenomena. Elementary particles are affected by connections that exist unseen across time and space.
2 electrons once correlated can maintian their connection over distance.
Zohar writes that our brain cells are sensitive enough to register the absorption of a single photon….. and thus is capable of being influenced by odd, quantum level behavior.
ahhh ---very interesting. i thought that it would boil down to something like this

How does this apply to homeopathy? You are claiming a quantum effects on a marco scale. You had better have some very good evidence to back up that claim.

[Timble]

Betahistine is indicated for Meniere's disease, not vertigo generally.

This is one of those studies where homeopathy is is as effective as the active drug, because the active drug isn't a lot of use either.

It's not even much use in its actual indication:

http://www.update-software.com/abstracts/AB001873.htm

[Psiload]

Originally posted by olaf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9708713&dopt=Abstract

Homeopathic vs conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study.

Weiser M, Strosser W, Klein P.

OBJECTIVE: To compare the efficacy and safety of a homeopathic remedy (Vertigoheel, Heel Inc, Albuquerque, NM) vs betahistine hydrochloride (active control) in the treatment of patients with vertigo of various origins in a confirmative equivalence trial. DESIGN: Randomized (1:1) double-blind controlled clinical trial. SETTING: Fifteen study centers (general practice) in Germany between November 1995 and November 1996. SUBJECTS: A total of 119 patients with vertigo of various origins


CONCLUSIONS: Concerning the main efficacy variable, therapeutic equivalence between the homeopathic remedy and betahistine could be shown with statistical significance (confirmative analysis). Both remedies reduced the frequency, duration, and intensity of vertigo attacks during a 6-week treatment period. Also, vertigo-specific complaints were significantly reduced in both treatment groups. Well... at least she's finally acknowledging the fact that it's spam.

I guess you could call that progress.

[qII]

Originally posted by Timble
Betahistine is indicated for Meniere's disease


you mean --syndrome

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Timble
Betahistine is indicated for Meniere's disease, not vertigo generally.

This is one of those studies where homeopathy is is as effective as the active drug, because the active drug isn't a lot of use either.

It's not even much use in its actual indication:

http://www.update-software.com/abstracts/AB001873.htm Actually... that's a pretty smart strategy on the part of homeopathic crowd. You pick a standard pharmacuetical that shows little or no efficacy, and you compare it to your favorite homeopathic delusion du jour remedy.

Voila! The homeopathic remedy is every bit as good as the pharmacuetical.

Like a dead heat for the gold at the Special Olympics.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by olaf
you mean --syndrome Google brings up 52,100 hits for Meniere's disease.

52,100!

Meniere's syndrome only brings up 45,800. So, according to olaflogic(tm), Timble is correct.

[qII]

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/3/7

Ameliorating effect of microdoses of a potentized homeopathic drug, Arsenicum Album, on arsenic-induced toxicity in mice

Arsenic in groundwater and its accumulation in plants and animals have assumed a menacing proportion in a large part of West Bengal, India and adjoining areas of Bangladesh. Because of the tremendous magnitude of the problem, there seems to be no way to tackle the problem overnight. Efforts to provide arsenic free water to the millions of people living in these dreaded zones are being made, but are awfully inadequate. In our quest for finding out an easy, safe and affordable means to combat this problem, a homeopathic drug, Arsenicum Album-30, appears to yield promising results in mice. The relative efficacies of two micro doses of this drug, namely, Arsenicum Album-30 and Arsenicum Album-200, in combating arsenic toxicity have been determined in the present study on the basis of some accepted biochemical protocols.

Methods
Mice were divided into different sets of control (both positive and negative) and treated series (As-intoxicated, As-intoxicated plus drug-fed). Alanine amino transferase (ALT) and aspartate amino transferase (AST) activities and reduced glutathione (GSH) level in liver and blood were analyzed in the different series of mice at six different fixation intervals.

Results
Both Arsenicum Album-30 and Arsenicum Album-200 ameliorated arsenic-induced toxicity to a considerable extent as compared to various controls.

Conclusions
The results lend further support to our earlier views that microdoses of potentized Arsenicum Album are capable of combating arsenic intoxication in mice, and thus are strong candidates for possible use in human subjects in arsenic contaminated areas under medical supervision.

[qII]

http://homeoinfo.com/09_reference/literature/ullman_0701_ennis_inflammation.php

One of London's major newspapers, The Guardian, just reported (March 15, 2001) on a study by four independent European laboratories on the research of respected but controversial physician/immunologist Jacques Benveniste.

This is very exciting news because Dr. Benveniste's earlier research in Nature (June 30, 1988), which was replicated in laboratories in three other universities (in Italy, Canada, and Israel) was supposedly debunked by the editor of Nature, a specialist of scientific fraud, and a magician.

The newer research includes a series of studies conducted in four highly respected laboratories in Europe (Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Scotland). A total of 3,764 measurements were taken, and significant biological effects were found from highly diluted doses of histamine. Specifically, doses of histamine that were diluted 1:100 15 to 19 times were found to have substantially significant effects on inhibiting degranulation of basophils (p<0.0001).

[Fordama]

Originally posted by olaf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9708713&dopt=Abstract

Homeopathic vs conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study.

Weiser M, Strosser W, Klein P.

OBJECTIVE: To compare the efficacy and safety of a homeopathic remedy (Vertigoheel, Heel Inc, Albuquerque, NM) vs betahistine hydrochloride (active control) in the treatment of patients with vertigo of various origins in a confirmative equivalence trial. DESIGN: Randomized (1:1) double-blind controlled clinical trial. SETTING: Fifteen study centers (general practice) in Germany between November 1995 and November 1996. SUBJECTS: A total of 119 patients with vertigo of various origins


CONCLUSIONS: Concerning the main efficacy variable, therapeutic equivalence between the homeopathic remedy and betahistine could be shown with statistical significance (confirmative analysis). Both remedies reduced the frequency, duration, and intensity of vertigo attacks during a 6-week treatment period. Also, vertigo-specific complaints were significantly reduced in both treatment groups. Since this was nearly a decade ago, I'm sure you can find where this experiment for vertigo has been succesfully repeated, yes?

Fordama

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/3/7

Ameliorating effect of microdoses of a potentized homeopathic drug, Arsenicum Album, on arsenic-induced toxicity in mice

Arsenic in groundwater and its accumulation in plants and animals have assumed a menacing proportion in a large part of West Bengal, India and adjoining areas of Bangladesh. Because of the tremendous magnitude of the problem, there seems to be no way to tackle the problem overnight. Efforts to provide arsenic free water to the millions of people living in these dreaded zones are being made, but are awfully inadequate. In our quest for finding out an easy, safe and affordable means to combat this problem, a homeopathic drug, Arsenicum Album-30, appears to yield promising results in mice. The relative efficacies of two micro doses of this drug, namely, Arsenicum Album-30 and Arsenicum Album-200, in combating arsenic toxicity have been determined in the present study on the basis of some accepted biochemical protocols.

Methods
Mice were divided into different sets of control (both positive and negative) and treated series (As-intoxicated, As-intoxicated plus drug-fed). Alanine amino transferase (ALT) and aspartate amino transferase (AST) activities and reduced glutathione (GSH) level in liver and blood were analyzed in the different series of mice at six different fixation intervals.

Results
Both Arsenicum Album-30 and Arsenicum Album-200 ameliorated arsenic-induced toxicity to a considerable extent as compared to various controls.

Conclusions
The results lend further support to our earlier views that microdoses of potentized Arsenicum Album are capable of combating arsenic intoxication in mice, and thus are strong candidates for possible use in human subjects in arsenic contaminated areas under medical supervision.


This one was debunked over at hpathy. I doubt you have even read the study

[qII]

you know, i have thought about it long and hard. i think you guys are correct that homeopathy does not work.

i can admit when i am wrong. thanks for straightening me out on this issue.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
http://homeoinfo.com/09_reference/literature/ullman_0701_ennis_inflammation.php

One of London's major newspapers, The Guardian, just reported (March 15, 2001) on a study by four independent European laboratories on the research of respected but controversial physician/immunologist Jacques Benveniste.

This is very exciting news because Dr. Benveniste's earlier research in Nature (June 30, 1988), which was replicated in laboratories in three other universities (in Italy, Canada, and Israel) was supposedly debunked by the editor of Nature, a specialist of scientific fraud, and a magician.

The newer research includes a series of studies conducted in four highly respected laboratories in Europe (Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Scotland). A total of 3,764 measurements were taken, and significant biological effects were found from highly diluted doses of histamine. Specifically, doses of histamine that were diluted 1:100 15 to 19 times were found to have substantially significant effects on inhibiting degranulation of basophils (p<0.0001).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml

[qII]

Originally posted by geni


http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml

no more proof. i surrender. seriously, you guys win.

[Timble]

Good of you to agree, thanks.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by olaf


no more proof. i surrender. seriously, you guys win. You finally overheated the barrel, and your spam cannon exploded, huh?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Look, I'm going to do Xanta's work for her since she seems to be too dim to find any Ennis publications more recent than 2001.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15105967

This looks to have just been published.

Seems Ennis is sticking to her guns. We'll need a pharmacologist to sort out the details of the paper. It appears to be too recent to have generated critical comment that can be called up via Google, so I guess it's watch and wait unless someone can get instant access to the paper and give us the story.

I know little about the details of the assay so will not personally find it easy to pick holes. All I would say is that the process as I understand it has a lot of subjectivity and I want to know how far up the chain of experimenters did the blinding go and when was the blinding broken?

[Timble]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Look, I'm going to do Xanta's work for her since she seems to be too dim to find any Ennis publications more recent than 2001.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15105967

This looks to have just been published.



There's not enough detail in the abstract, to work out quite what went on....it'll be interesting to read it if someone does a fuller review. (It's $35 to buy the full article)

[geni]

I've got a copy of the paper but a lot of the stuff is beyond me however one of the addresses is intersting:

Boiron 20 rue de la Libération 69110 Sainte-Foy-Les-Lyon France

It was funded by the French instute of homeopathic reseach. A number of the paper cited are a bit dodgy.

[qII]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Look, I'm going to do Xanta's work for her since she seems to be too dim to find any Ennis publications more recent than 2001.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15105967


Now why on earth would you give me amunition?

this is almost as bad as what rolfe does.

BTW -- it is all faked! all of it. there is no way that homeopathy could possibly work. afterall our physicists already understand everything there is to understand, and Western Medicine (and biology) has already figured out everything about lifeforms.

(too dim???)

[qII]

Inflamm Res. 2004 Apr;53(5):181-8. Epub 2004 Apr 21. Related Articles, Links


Histamine dilutions modulate basophil activation.

Belon P, Cumps J, Ennis M, Mannaioni PF, Roberfroid M, Sainte-Laudy J, Wiegant FA.

Boiron, 20 rue de la Liberation, 69110, Sainte-Foy-Les-Lyon, France.

Background:In order to demonstrate that high dilutions of histamine are able to inhibit basophil activation in a reproducible fashion, several techniques were used in different research laboratories. Objective:The aim of the study was to investigate the action of histamine dilutions on basophil activation. Methods:Basophil activation was assessed by alcian blue staining, measurement of histamine release and CD63 expression. Study 1 used a blinded multi-centre approach in 4 centres. Study 2, related to the confirmation of the multi-centre study by flow cytometry, was performed independently in 3 laboratories. Study 3 examined the histamine release (one laboratory) and the activity of H(2) receptor antagonists and structural analogues (two laboratories). Results:High dilutions of histamine (10(-30)-10(-38) M) influence the activation of human basophils measured by alcian blue staining. The degree of inhibition depends on the initial level of anti-IgE induced stimulation, with the greatest inhibitory effects seen at lower levels of stimulation. This multicentre study was confirmed in the three laboratories by using flow cytometry and in one laboratory by histamine release. Inhibition of CD63 expression by histamine high dilutions was reversed by cimetidine (effect observed in two laboratories) and not by ranitidine (one laboratory). Histidine tested in parallel with histamine showed no activity on this model. Conclusions:In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. This activity observed by staining basophils with alcian blue was confirmed by flow cytometry. Inhibition by histamine was reversed by anti-H2 and was not observed with histidine these results being in favour of the specificity of this effect We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.

PMID: 15105967 [PubMed - in process]

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


Now why on earth would you give me amunition?

this is almost as bad as what rolfe does.

BTW -- it is all faked! all of it. there is no way that homeopathy could possibly work. afterall our physicists already understand everything there is to understand, and Western Medicine (and biology) has already figured out everything about lifeforms.

(too dim???)

Because we are interested in findiong out the truth. At the monet the paper seems to be fairly new.

[geni]

Xanta don't bother quoting the abstract. I've got the paper sitting in frount of me. Try at least making a comment to show that you have reade and understood it.

[qII]

.Conclusions:In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. .

i think she must be on drugs. she is being paid off by the homeopathy people.

someone stop this farce.

quick call john stossel --better yet call randi because he knows everything.

call the debunking squad!!!

(interesting note: just got finished reading the Quark and the Jaguar. gell-mann is/was an elected skeptic but even he is ashamed at the way the pseudo-skeptics (his colleagues) go about their business)

[qII]

Originally posted by geni


Because we are interested in findiong out the truth. At the monet the paper seems to be fairly new.

what are you saying? we aren't interested in the truth -- hush!

our mission is to resist all change. resist having to think in different ways. protect the $$$ interests of western medicine.

our mission is to persecute the homeopaths.

"the truth" --- nonsense!

(now lets start nitpicking the living bejesus out of that paper and if we can't do it successfully we can just attack her and her team!)

[qII]

hey i've got an idea. all we need to do is secretly hire a bunch of scientists who are anti-homeopathy and we can be fairly certain that the results of their studies will be "INCONCLUSIVE".

who is that editor of Nature -- Maddox??? surely he must know who we can hire.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
.Conclusions:In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. .

i think she must be on drugs. she is being paid off by the homeopathy people.

someone stop this farce.

quick call john stossel --better yet call randi because he knows everything.

call the debunking squad!!!

(interesting note: just got finished reading the Quark and the Jaguar. gell-mann is/was an elected skeptic but even he is ashamed at the way the pseudo-skeptics (his colleagues) go about their business)

A decen't staistcian would be more help. They running signifcance tests I've never even herd of. Not stop getting excited and go and read the paper so you can maje an informed comment.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


what are you saying? we aren't interested in the truth -- hush!

our mission is to resist all change. resist having to think in different ways. protect the $$$ interests of western medicine.

our mission is to persecute the homeopaths.

"the truth" --- nonsense!

(now lets start nitpicking the living bejesus out of that paper and if we can't do it successfully we can just attack her and her team!)

Her team are suspcius to say the least but i've never found that kind of explantion satifactory.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
hey i've got an idea. all we need to do is secretly hire a bunch of scientists who are anti-homeopathy and we can be fairly certain that the results of their studies will be "INCONCLUSIVE".

who is that editor of Nature -- Maddox??? surely he must know who we can hire.

Going by your posting times you live in the US. You must know your countries lible laws. Don't accuse Maddox of any involment in fraud unless you can prove it.

[qII]

Originally posted by geni


Her team are suspcius to say the least

okay this is a good start comrade. we can start by attacking her team.

we need funds so we can hire a private detective agency and dig up (or plant) some dirt on them.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


okay this is a good start comrade. we can start by attacking her team.

we need funds so we can hire a private detective agency and dig up (or plant) some dirt on them.

Too much like hard work. Come on you know the critism you love to level at studies into rconventional drugs you know something about funding...
I'll leave you to work out what I'm hinting at while I get back to reading about how occupatiob theory relates to agonists.

[Virgil]

over 100,000 Medical Doctors!!!!!!!!!!


Olaf,

good to see you, how is the wife? kids?


Virgil

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by olaf
hey i've got an idea. all we need to do is secretly hire a bunch of scientists who are anti-homeopathy and we can be fairly certain that the results of their studies will be "INCONCLUSIVE".What makes you think so? Are you saying that scientific research is always finding new methods 'inconclusive'?

Can you grasp the fact that some scientists are just scientists, not anti-something or pro-something?

Originally posted by Geni
Boiron, 20 rue de la Libération 69110 Sainte-Foy-Les-Lyon France

It was funded by the French instute of homeopathic reseach. A number of the paper cited are a bit dodgy.Boiron is making homeopathic remedies for a living. See their website here:

http://www.boiron.com/index_en.htm

Mr. Boiron himself aswers a main question this way:

Should we do research to "prove" the value of homeopathy ?

No, I do not think soCase closed, I guess - no evidence needed ....

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf
you know, i have thought about it long and hard. i think you guys are correct that homeopathy does not work.

i can admit when i am wrong. thanks for straightening me out on this issue.

Xanta also promised she would be leaving, and before that she said she'd get me thrown off the board.

And besides, we already have a XxrationalxX/Towlie poster, so that position have been filled.

[An Infinite Ocean]

Originally posted by olaf
our mission is to resist all change. resist having to think in different ways. protect the $$$ interests of western medicine.
This is actually true, to be fair. Although I have no financial investment in western medicine, I am still part of the paranoid conspiracy to protect it. For some reason.

When I get sick, I want to be treated with western medicine - despite the fact that I know full well that homeopathic medicine is infinitely superior. For some reason.
our mission is to persecute the homeopaths.
Also true. Since witches more or less vanished from the scene, homeopaths make good targets. And they go up quite well when you burn them.
(now lets start nitpicking the living bejesus out of that paper and if we can't do it successfully we can just attack her and her team!)
Skilled scientists attempted to replicate the experiment - and showed no positive results.

Ennis herself has shown rather peculiar behavior which might indicate that she has more of a vested interest in homeopathy than she may have declared. Especially since she has allowed herself to become a poster girl for homeopaths, when the other main principle of homeopathy - sympathetic magic - is still known to be superstition. Why would any scientist ally herself with superstition like that, even if she had proved 'water memory'?

Face it Olaf, you're flogging a dead horse with this particular troll. Someone used her experiments to try and win the $1m, and they failed because they don't work.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by olaf
you know, i have thought about it long and hard. i think you guys are correct that homeopathy does not work.

i can admit when i am wrong. thanks for straightening me out on this issue.
Can we now say the results compel us to re-embrace our disbelief?

[qII]

Originally posted by An Infinite Ocean


Face it Olaf, you're flogging a dead horse with this particular troll. Someone used her experiments to try and win the $1m, and they failed because they don't work.

it sounds like the others are interested in the truth. i don't agree. i think that your idea of supression and denial is the way to go. i mean what if ennis really can inhibit basophil activation?

that would be a devastating blow to our agenda.

i really think that we need to start a character assasination assault asap.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Psiload
The smell alone should tip you off to where exactly she pulled that steaming nugget from.


http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/biglaff2.gif
Originally posted by Psiload

Like a dead heat for the gold at the Special Olympics.


http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/biglaff2.gif http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/biglaff2.gif


Well, we have oaf the clown and Psi the comedic ringmaster. This thread really is an awesome circus act!!

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf


it sounds like the others are interested in the truth. i don't agree. i think that your idea of supression and denial is the way to go. i mean what if ennis really can inhibit basophil activation?

that would be a devastating blow to our agenda.

i really think that we need to start a character assasination assault asap.

Go for it Olaf. If Ennis can inhibit basophil activation through the memory of molecules, it should be reproducable in a lab. Funny how it's not. Keep going with your Towlie type rants, though Xanta. But you're not half as amusing, and not 1/3 as cute.

[qII]

Originally posted by Suezoled


Go for it Olaf. If Ennis can inhibit basophil activation through the memory of molecules, it should be reproducable in a lab. Funny how it's not

sure about that?

are you so sure that you would authorize all infants and children to drink this highly diluted water thinking it is harmless?

would you really do that?

based on this work plus 100,000 european MDs plus million of testimonials, plus hundreds of positive studies ---- you would have your babies and kids consume it every day?

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by olaf


sure about that?

are you so sure that you would authorize all infants and children to drink this highly diluted water thinking it is harmless?

would you really do that?

based on this work plus 100,000 european MDs plus million of testimonials, plus hundreds of positive studies ---- you would have your babies and kids consume it every day?

:roll:

My babies already consume it every day. Considering the dilutions in the planetary water systems are even more powerful (meaning may actually contain molecules) than your homeowater.

What hundreds of positive studies? Anectdotes don't count. They aren't studies.

Get a clue, clown.

[qII]

Homeopathy and structure of water: a physical model]

[Article in German]

Kratky KW.

Institut fur Experimentalphysik der Universitat Wien, Vienna, Austria. karl.kratzky@univie.ac.at

BACKGROUND: Formerly, the author has suggested a relatively simple water model. There, the dynamical structure of a typical water cluster was investigated, being represented by the movement of a ball in an abstract energy landscape. OBJECTIVE: Now the above-mentioned model is investigated in more detail to answer the following question: Are essential claims of homeopathy concerning potentiation (diluting and shaking) in agreement with science? METHODS: Equations of motion are employed that represent vibrations of clusters. For the computer experiments, the formalism of Nose-Hoover is used, the surrounding water being interpreted as a heat bath. Diluting corresponds to a shift of the energy landscape towards the pure solvent (water), shaking is accompanied by an increase of the contact to the heat bath. RESULTS: There is a tendency of the ball to be caught in local valleys of the energy landscape (metastable states) if the temperature is not too high and if the liquid is not shaken. Thus, even for a given landscape there are a variety of structures being durable for some time. CONCLUSIONS: The computer experiments suggest that the repeated process of potentiation eventually results in a specific metastable state of the pure solvent. The initial substance helps to obtain this goal, but is no longer necessary at last. Copyright 2004 S. Karger GmbH, Freiburg

PMID: 15004445 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The initial substance helps to obtain this goal, but is no longer necessary at last.


gee, not exactly sure what this means but i don't think it is good for us homeopathy haters.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf


sure about that?

are you so sure that you would authorize all infants and children to drink this highly diluted water thinking it is harmless?

would you really do that?

based on this work plus 100,000 european MDs plus million of testimonials, plus hundreds of positive studies ---- you would have your babies and kids consume it every day?

Funny how you build those strawmen. Did I say it was harmless? Did I say it wasn't? No, you did.

Oh, and don't even bring in the "think of the children" ploy. Homeopathy would sooner see children take homeopathic remedies and go through the "natural process of disease" rather than advocate vaccinations, it seems.

Based on the flawed lab tests, and MILLIONS of doctors who don't use homeopathy, plus more studies that find flaws in the pro-homeopathy studies than those that find "positive results"---- I'd sooner kids drink tap water, take their vaccinations, wash their hands, and get over their colds and stomach bugs with time, chicken soup, and/or ginger ale.

[Suezoled]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15004445

Forgot to post your link Xanta.

Originally posted by olaf
(snipped)


gee, not exactly sure what this means but i don't think it is good for us homeopathy haters.

You forget this statement before it: The computer experiments suggest that the repeated process of potentiation eventually results in a specific metastable state of the pure solvent

Geez-us. The person who did the study does research at the Institute of Experimental Physics. The word "metastable" should be ringing these LOUD bells in your head.
Nuclear mechanical energy states, half-lives... this is the realm of physics and radioactivity. Once again using Quantum Physics to back up your assertions.

[Eos of the Eons]

It uses what it doesn't understand to try to make its beliefs seem real. That is the makings of pseudoscience. Next lesson please.

[Benguin]

Sorry to go back to something earlier ....

our mission is to resist all change. resist having to think in different ways. protect the $$$ interests of western medicine.

1. By what criteria does Homeopathy not qualify as 'Western'?

2. Are you seriously suggesting there are not $ interests in homeopathic consultation and remedy sales?

[Quasi]

I have tried to download the paper, but the Inflamm res web site is down. Did they make their own solutions? Two, how were the dilutions carried out?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by olaf


Now why on earth would you give me amunition?




This is what science is. New information appears, it gets assessed. It does not get dismissed only because idiot homeopaths want it to be true. It gets accepted or dismissed on the strength of the evidence being presented.

We also remember all the homeopaths who lined up to say that it was a deeply unhomeopathic experiment when it last failed replication. Obviously we expect those homeopaths will stick to that view if the current study does appear to be sound.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Olaf

Why have you gone off on more of your wild rants? You've been given the Ennis citation. Use it. Argue from the evidence it contains.

What is your view of the blinding methods?

What steps were taken to exclude fraudulent fiddling with the protocol?

What is your view of the statistical analysis?

Are there clear methodological differences between this and the failed replication studies?

One for people with access to current citation indices and the paper itself:

Where is Inflammation Research in the league tables? That it was not published in Science or Nature suggests it does not conform to the most rigorous standards, but what are the problems with it?

[geni]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey


One for people with access to current citation indices and the paper itself:

Where is Inflammation Research in the league tables? That it was not published in Science or Nature suggests it does not conform to the most rigorous standards, but what are the problems with it?

The reason it didn't make any of the better journals is that there seems to be no new data.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by olaf


sure about that?

are you so sure that you would authorize all infants and children to drink this highly diluted water thinking it is harmless?

would you really do that?

based on this work plus 100,000 european MDs plus million of testimonials, plus hundreds of positive studies ---- you would have your babies and kids consume it every day? Once again... YES, I would allow my children to drink pure water. You just don't get it, Xanta... I don't believe in homeopathy, and I don't believe in voodoo curses. Just as I would allow a voodoo priestess to put a curse on my children, I would allow my children to drink homeopathic "medicine" aka pure water. Matter of fact, I encourage them to do it everyday.

No harm would come to them because I have taken the precaution of inoculating with the common sense vaccine. It's 100% effective in preventing infection by delusion, and superstition.

Let me state this in plain english...

I am not afraid of your mojo.

Is it really so hard for you to accept the fact that I don't believe in your "magic water"? Sorry, It takes more than a lab coat, a bunch of hand waving(or shaking in this case),a "scientificy" theory, and pseudomedicinal labels on a bottles of water to scare me.

**edited to potentiate my post and make it more powerful**

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by geni


The reason it didn't make any of the better journals is that there seems to be no new data.

Could you expand on that answer please?

[geni]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey


Could you expand on that answer please?

I think (all though I'm not certain) that the data is the same as the stuff published in the previus ennis paper. They may have done a reanalysis but other than that I can't see anything new.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by geni


I think (all though I'm not certain) that the data is the same as the stuff published in the previus ennis paper. They may have done a reanalysis but other than that I can't see anything new. There's gold in them there data!

http://www2.shastacollege.edu/geoscience/miner.gif

[An Infinite Ocean]

Originally posted by olaf


sure about that?

are you so sure that you would authorize all infants and children to drink this highly diluted water thinking it is harmless?

would you really do that?

based on this work plus 100,000 european MDs plus million of testimonials, plus hundreds of positive studies ---- you would have your babies and kids consume it every day?
I would, absolutely.

[digital goldfish]

Originally posted by Psiload
Once again... YES, I would allow my children to drink pure water. You just don't get it, Xanta... I don't believe in homeopathy, and I don't believe in voodoo curses. Just as I would allow a voodoo priestess to put a curse on my children, I would allow my children to drink homeopathic "medicine" aka pure water. Matter of fact, I encourage them to do it everyday.

No harm would come to them because I have taken the precaution of inoculating with the common sense vaccine. It's 100% effective in preventing infection by delusion, and superstition.

Let me state this in plain english...

I am not afraid of your mojo.

Is it really so hard for you to accept the fact that I don't believe in your "magic water"? Sorry, It takes more than a lab coat, a bunch of hand waving(or shaking in this case),a "scientificy" theory, and pseudomedicinal labels on a bottles of water to scare me.

**edited to potentiate my post and make it more powerful**

Can i just say for the record: ROFLMAO! :-D