the results compel me to suspend my disbelief

[olaf]

Partial extract from The Guardian 15.03.01

"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water.

In order to make sure no bias was introduced into the experiment by the scientists from the four laboratories involved, they were all "blinded" to the contents of their test solutions. In other words, they did not know whether the solutions they were adding to the basophil-aIgE reaction contained ghost amounts of histamine or just pure water. But that's not all. The ghost histamine solutions and the controls were prepared in three different laboratories that had nothing further to do with the trial.

The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise.

Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions.
[...]
"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." "



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4152521,00.htm

__________________

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

[olaf]

http://www.nhsdirectory.org/default.asp?Page=Homeopathy

Providing a Choice - Homeopathy within Primary Care
Homeopathy is a complementary therapy that can provide low-cost, effective treatments for a range of disorders that are often a continuous drain on NHS resources. Many disorders can be safely, cheaply and effectively treated by a professional registered Homeopath.

[olaf]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9708713&dopt=Abstract

Homeopathic vs conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study.

Weiser M, Strosser W, Klein P.


CONCLUSIONS: Concerning the main efficacy variable, therapeutic equivalence between the homeopathic remedy and betahistine could be shown with statistical significance (confirmative analysis). Both remedies reduced the frequency, duration, and intensity of vertigo attacks during a 6-week treatment period. Also, vertigo-specific complaints were significantly reduced in both treatment groups.

[olaf]

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/30/1728_72611

WEB MD –new article

Homeopathy a Good Alternative for Treating Ear Infections

Feb. 16, 2001 -- The applications of homeopathy are widespread -- everything from treating the common cold to clearing up childhood ear infections. It's this latest use that caught the attention of a group of West Coast researchers, who set out to evaluate in a scientific way the many reports of homeopathic success.
"We set this up as a pilot study, not really expecting to see any positive effect from homeopathy," says researcher Jennifer Jacobs, MD, MPH, clinical assistant professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington School of Public Health and Community Medicine in Seattle. "We were surprised that homeopathy decreased symptoms [of middle ear infections] in the first 24 hours of treatment."

[olaf]

http://www.hmedicine.com/news/guide/ncsu.php

Researchers at CalTech have discovered magnetic particles throughout the human brain. The Cal Tech team speculates that homeopathic dilutions create a higher level of the electromagnetic field, thus triggering the defense mechanisms of the body

[olaf]

The distinguished Italian physicist Emilio del Giudici has set forth a theory that helps explain homeopathy's mode of therapeutic action. Del Giudici proposes that water molecules form structures capable of storing minute electromagnetic signals.

[olaf]

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ MONDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 2003 02:24:04 AM ]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?artid=298138


Dr Mukesh Batra , Leading homoeopath, On the changing perception of homoeopathy in India
How would you evaluate homeopathic treatment in India ?

India leads the world with about five lakh (500,000) homoeopathic practitioners. The homoeopathic market is estimated at Rs 630 crore and has been growing annually at 20 to 25 per cent for the last five years. An independent research commissioned by Dr Batra’s Positive Health Clinic Ltd (DBPHCL) two years ago in Bangalore and Mumbai showed that more and more people today choose homoeopathy as the first choice of treatment especially in chronic diseases such as asthma, arthritis, chronic allergies and stress-related disorders.

[olaf]

http://www.abc.net.au/dimensions/health/transcripts/s370216.htm

AMA (Australian Medical Association) calls for an "open mind" on homoeopathy

AMA calls for an "open mind" on homeopathy
Some medical groups have found it difficult to accept evidence of homoeopathy's effectiveness because it appears to counter the current understanding of how drugs work. Many homoeopathic medicines are so dilute that no single molecule is left in the solution.

" My view is that the evidence should speak for itself ," says Dr Roberta Chow, a member of the Federal AMA's Advisory Committee on Complementary Medicine. "There have been other studies like this and if the BMJ is prepared to look at it perhaps we should be more open minded about it."

[olaf]

54,000 German medical doctors practice homeopathy because they know it works.

Over 100,000 European medical doctors practice homeopathy because they know it works.

[geni]

The first one was de-buked live on TV twice.

The second one has homeopaths as it's source

The third one was a test where the drug being tested against had not been shown to have an effect (in other words they were both plaecbos)

The fourth one refrences a pilot study. Tell me when the real tests are done will you?

The fith one fails because if water deveolped a stable magnetic field it would easerly be detecerble.

The sixth one is a waste of space. Once again the effect would be pretty obvius. The whole thing is pure speculation. Btw if the guy is so distinguished why havn't I herd of him outside this context?

[olaf]

In all countries homeopaths are organised. India has the largest number of homeopaths. The Central Body of Registration has over 125 000 registered homeopathic practitioners on its register.


In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners , 700 veterinarians and 2 000 dentists (5%) prescribe homeopathic medicines to their patients. This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths.


http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/survey.html

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
54,000 German medical doctors practice homeopathy because they know it works.

Over 100,000 European medical doctors practice homeopathy because they know it works.

source?

[Fordama]

As a newbie here, I'm not familiar with what many people think and believe around here yet. Therefore I did a search on your posts and read a good number of them.

The conclusion I came to is that you don't have much disbelief to suspend. You seem pretty much credulous for many unproven theories.

Fordama

[olaf]

E. Ernst, T. Saradeth, and K.L. Resch,
Complementary Treatment of Varicose Veins: A Randomized Placebo-controlled, Double-Blind Trial,
Phlebology, 1990, 5:157-163.
This study of 61 patients showed a 44% improvement in venous filling time in the homeopathic treated group when compared with placebo.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
http://www.abc.net.au/dimensions/health/transcripts/s370216.htm

AMA (Australian Medical Association) calls for an "open mind" on homoeopathy

AMA calls for an "open mind" on homeopathy
Some medical groups have found it difficult to accept evidence of homoeopathy's effectiveness because it appears to counter the current understanding of how drugs work. Many homoeopathic medicines are so dilute that no single molecule is left in the solution.

" My view is that the evidence should speak for itself ," says Dr Roberta Chow, a member of the Federal AMA's Advisory Committee on Complementary Medicine. "There have been other studies like this and if the BMJ is prepared to look at it perhaps we should be more open minded about it."

Nice try but once again just homeopaths blowing their own trumpet.

[olaf]

P. Fisher, A. Greenwood, E.C. Huskisson, et al.,
Effect of Homoeopathic Treatment on Fibrositis
British Medical Journal, August 5, 1989, 299:365-66.
This trial was double-blind with a crossover design, comparing R toxicodendron to a placebo in 30 patients all suffering from an identical syndrome identified as the admission criteria. It showed a significant reduction in tender spots, by 25%, when patients were given the homeopathic medicine, as compared to when they were given the placebo.

[garys_2k]

Again?

Why bother, Oaf ? You know these are baloney and don't prove anything. Why? :hb:

[geni]

Originally posted by Fordama
As a newbie here, I'm not familiar with what many people think and believe around here yet. Therefore I did a search on your posts and read a good number of them.

The conclusion I came to is that you don't have much disbelief to suspend. You seem pretty much credulous for many unproven theories.

Fordama

Xanta/olaf is a hard core beliver. His only tacktic is spaming and insults.

[geni]

Xanta I know you havn't read those studies. Tell me when you do and I will disscuss them untill then please stop wasteing bandwith. Thankyou

[garys_2k]

That first link, used for the thread title, is malformed and won't work anyway. So no, I do doubt he even bothered trying to read these articles. More Google spew.

[olaf]

"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/A...,4152521,00.htm

yep, i hear ya Madeline. shocking isn't it?

hard to believe that it could work but it does indeed!!!

[olaf]

Originally posted by geni
Xanta I know you havn't read those studies. Tell me when you do and I will disscuss them untill then please stop wasteing bandwith. Thankyou

Geni,

i will be happy to educate you on these matters but first you must give up your closed minded ways.

the most hardcore of the flat earthers had to bite the bullet at some point. you eventually will have to do it also. just relax and don't fight it -- it will be easier if you don't fight it.

[Bjorn]

Olaf quit LYING about homeopathy!!!!!!

over 1,000,000 MEDICAL DOCTORS!!!!!!!!!!

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/A...,4152521,00.htm

yep, i hear ya Madeline. shocking isn't it?

hard to believe that it could work but it does indeed!!!

Destroyed live on TV twice. You may remeber the second time.

[garys_2k]

Nobody's fighting anything, just recognizing lousy information. Just provide some good data and we can discuss it.

Now, please fix that link.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


Geni,

i will be happy to educate you on these matters but first you must give up your closed minded ways.

the most hardcore of the flat earthers had to bite the bullet at some point. you eventually will have to do it also. just relax and don't fight it -- it will be easier if you don't fight it.

Ok lets see one properly conduted trial that supports homeopathy lets see just one homeopath take the million dollars. Come on do it or admit you have nothing but empty stories. Not one homeopath amoungst all those thousands you boast about has been able to show that when blinded they can tell the difference between a homeopathic remedy and a stock solvant. Can you? If so you know where to apply. If not then there is no way it can work.

[olaf]

Originally posted by garys_2k
Nobody's fighting anything, just recognizing lousy information. Just provide some good data and we can discuss it.

Now, please fix that link. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4152521,00.htm

[olaf]

Experiments have backed what was once a scientific 'heresy', says Lionel Milgrom

Lionel Milgrom
Guardian

Thursday March 15, 2001


A bout homeopathy, Professor Madeleine Ennis of Queen's University Belfast is, like most scientists, deeply sceptical. That a medicinal compound diluted out of existence should still exert a therapeutic effect is an affront to conventional biochemistry and pharmacology, based as they are on direct and palpable molecular events. The same goes for a possible explanation of how homoeopathy works: that water somehow retains a "memory" of things once dissolved in it.

This last notion, famously promoted by French biologist Dr Jacques Benveniste, cost him his laboratories, his funding, and ultimately his international scientific credibility. However, it did not deter Professor Ennis who, being a scientist, was not afraid to try to prove Benveniste wrong. So, more than a decade after Benveniste's excommunication from the scientific mainstream, she jumped at the chance to join a large pan-European research team, hoping finally to lay the Benveniste "heresy" to rest. But she was in for a shock: for the team's latest results controversially now suggest that Benveniste might have been right all along.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4152521,00.htm

[olaf]

Originally posted by geni


Ok lets see one properly conduted trial that supports homeopathy lets see just one homeopath take the million dollars. Come on do it or admit you have nothing but empty stories. Not one homeopath amoungst all those thousands you boast about has been able to show that when blinded they can tell the difference between a homeopathic remedy and a stock solvant. Can you? If so you know where to apply. If not then there is no way it can work.
randi's challenge is an absurd joke. pure rubbish. see peter morris' comments. see amherst's posts.

wake up.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
Experiments have backed what was once a scientific 'heresy', says Lionel Milgrom

Lionel Milgrom
Guardian

Thursday March 15, 2001


A bout homeopathy, Professor Madeleine Ennis of Queen's University Belfast is, like most scientists, deeply sceptical. That a medicinal compound diluted out of existence should still exert a therapeutic effect is an affront to conventional biochemistry and pharmacology, based as they are on direct and palpable molecular events. The same goes for a possible explanation of how homoeopathy works: that water somehow retains a "memory" of things once dissolved in it.

This last notion, famously promoted by French biologist Dr Jacques Benveniste, cost him his laboratories, his funding, and ultimately his international scientific credibility. However, it did not deter Professor Ennis who, being a scientist, was not afraid to try to prove Benveniste wrong. So, more than a decade after Benveniste's excommunication from the scientific mainstream, she jumped at the chance to join a large pan-European research team, hoping finally to lay the Benveniste "heresy" to rest. But she was in for a shock: for the team's latest results controversially now suggest that Benveniste might have been right all along.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4152521,00.htm

Quoteing Lionel Milgrom is on the same level as quoteing an NRA member as say guns are a good thing. And once again we all know what happend to ennis. Twice.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf

randi's challenge is an absurd joke. pure rubbish. see peter morris' comments. see amherst's posts.

wake up.

The next few posts to it to the cleaners without even trying. Anyway homeopathy is very easy to test since all you have to do is show that you can tell the difference between a remedy and a stock solvent.

Still If you won't accept the randi chalange how about my challange. I can't match the million but £10 says you can't tell the difference between a 30C (or higher potency) and a stock solvent with the odds of passing the test by chance alone being 1000 to 1 (see I just made it a million times easyer than the JREF test).

[olaf]

Originally posted by geni


The next few posts to it to the cleaners without even trying. Anyway homeopathy is very easy to test since all you have to do is show that you can tell the difference between a remedy and a stock solvent.

Still If you won't accept the randi chalange how about my challange. I can't match the million but £10 says you can't tell the difference between a 30C (or higher potency) and a stock solvent with the odds of passing the test by chance alone being 1000 to 1 (see I just made it a million times easyer than the JREF test).

i can't do it.

besides, the mind plays tricks on people. that is why the placebo effect is so confounding to researchers. despite that -- it still works that is why 100,000 european medical doctors plus close to 3/4 of a million indian and pakistani practitioners do what they do.

quit being a flat earther.

"machines can't fly" -- "yes they can" -- "no they can't"

[olaf]

But she was in for a shock: for the team's latest results controversially now suggest that Benveniste might have been right all along.

[Ladewig]

Question 1. Olaf, do you really believe "chucking" is the best way to evaluate medical claims on a message board?


---------
Question 2. (from your first post and link)
Benveniste believes he already knows what constitutes the water-memory effect and claims to be able to record and transmit the "signals" of biochemical substances around the world via the internet. These, he claims, cause changes in biological tissues as if the substance was actually present.
Do you believe that homeopathic signals can be transmitted over the internet?


-----------
Question 3. (from first post and link)
Ennis: "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings."
It has been three years, has Ennis found a rational explanation for those findings?


-----------
Question 4a and 4b.
Do you have any bouble blind studies that determined the most effective and safest level of dilution to use for each illness? If not, then isn't putting homeopathic medicines on the market dangerously premature?


------------
Question 5.
quit being a flat earther.
"machines can't fly" -- "yes they can" -- "no they can't"
What difference does it make to you what the people on this board believe about homeopathy? The people here have no influence in the government, the marketplace, or the media. Homeopathic solutions are sold around the world and are freely available.

------------
Observation 1
It still works. that is why 100,000 European medical doctors plus close to 3/4 of a million Indian and Pakistani practitioners do what they do.
Or... Just maybe... It is possible that the doctors know a bunch of patients that believe in homeopathy and the doctors know that giving patients a few drops of water does no harm.

[An Infinite Ocean]

Xanta, why does Ennis believe in homeopathy now, even though only half of the story has been (cough) proven to her?

'Like cures like' is not a scientific principle. So why does Ennis believe in homeopathy? Answer me, you stupid little freak.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Fordama
The conclusion I came to is that you don't have much disbelief to suspend. You seem pretty much credulous for many unproven theories.

Fordama Ding ding ding! Got it in one! Nice work.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by olaf
Geni:
Anyway homeopathy is very easy to test since all you have to do is show that you can tell the difference between a remedy and a stock solvent.

olaf:
i can't do it.

... the mind plays tricks on people.
Correct.

despite that -- it still works that is why 100,000 european medical doctors plus close to 3/4 of a million indian and pakistani practitioners do what they do.
I'm not so much concerned with the numbers at the moment, but how on earth do the personal beliefs of others objectively validate the legitimacy of homeopathy?

[Fordama]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Correct.


I'm not so much concerned with the numbers at the moment, but how on earth do the personal beliefs of others objectively validate the legitimacy of homeopathy? Not to mention the heavy reliance on astrology that the Indian culture has. Is he supporting that also?

Fordama

[Benguin]

despite that -- it still works that is why 100,000 european medical doctors plus close to 3/4 of a million indian and pakistani practitioners do what they do.

1. Please clarify what criteria you are using for this; ie does "do what they do" mean personally use it, recommend it to their patients, refer to a homeopathic practitioner or actually prescribe the potions to patients. We need to know the minimum level of participation, by a doctor, you would consider to characterise acceptance (or whatever you'd term it).

2. Point us to a study (or a number of studies) that verify your figures.

Don't bother with this article (www.h2rc2.com/downloads/Homstats.pdf+homeopathy+germany&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 )) as I explained here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870423084#post1870423084) the flaws in that one.

[athon]

The tactic is lame, overdone and pointless, Olaf. The whole post-bomb and run does nothing to prove your case, especially when you fail to respond to any queries put forth (BTW, calling people idiots is not a response).

Better people have done the same thing, gotten bored and left this forum when they realised they were playing with people who know science better than they do. So I suggest you find a nice, safe corner of the web where nobody will ask difficult questions and then you can post all the nonsense you want.

Athon

[richardm]

Originally posted by Fordama
As a newbie here, I'm not familiar with what many people think and believe around here yet. Therefore I did a search on your posts and read a good number of them.

The conclusion I came to is that you don't have much disbelief to suspend. You seem pretty much credulous for many unproven theories.

Fordama


I dropped into this thread to make much the same point, but you beat me to it! Well spotted!

[digital goldfish]

Originally posted by olaf


Geni,

i will be happy to educate you on these matters but first you must give up your closed minded ways.

the most hardcore of the flat earthers had to bite the bullet at some point. you eventually will have to do it also. just relax and don't fight it -- it will be easier if you don't fight it.

Um, BTW, no one ever actually thought the earth was flat. It's a very common misconception. It was known as far back as Pythagoras that the earth was round. The mistake comes from Irving Washington's history of Chirstopher Columbus in 1882, where he made up a meeting, where the natives believed the earth was flat.. It's fiction; it never happened! Fiction, just like the 'principles' of Homeopathy in fact.. So it is you who is the flat earther, Olaf.

http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUSSELL/FlatEarth.html

[olaf]

[i]Answer me, you stupid little freak. [/B]

:D

[MRC_Hans]

WHatever the fact about flat earthers (there HAVE been people who thought Earth was flat), the argument is void.

I can PROVE Earth is round.
I can PROVE aircraft can fly.
I can PROVE all those things we now know people were wrong about in the past.

ALL I ask, olaf, is that you PROVE that homeopathy works.

Now, for the 100.000 doctors thingy:

Lets say you are right. So how is that an argument for your case? 100.000 evil allopathic doctors who also use vaccination, antibiotics, hydrocortisons, hormone replacements, chemotherapy, radiation therapy, surgery. 100.000 descendants of the users of bloodletting, leeches, enemas and worse things.

Are you SURE you wanna use them as reference?

Hans ;)

[Benguin]

Lets say you are right. So how is that an argument for your case? 100.000 evil allopathic doctors who also use vaccination, antibiotics, hydrocortisons, hormone replacements, chemotherapy, radiation therapy, surgery. 100.000 descendants of the users of bloodletting, leeches, enemas and worse things.

Save us from 100 000 of these sort (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2666411.stm)

[Prester John]

I think olaf is a computer program designed to communicate like a human. Not a very good one tho' :D

spam bot!

[olaf]

Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions.

Still, Professor Ennis was not satisfied. "In this particular trial, we stained the basophils with a dye and then hand-counted those left coloured after the histamine- inhibition reaction. You could argue that human error might enter at this stage." So she used a previously developed counting protocol that could be entirely automated. This involved tagging activated basophils with a monoclonal antibody that could be observed via fluorescence and measured by machine.

The result, shortly to be published in Inflammation Research, was the same: histamine solutions, both at pharmacological concentrations and diluted out of existence, lead to statistically significant inhibition of basophile activation by aIgE, confirming previous work in this area.

"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4152521,00.htm

read it and weep!

[Benguin]

Why would we weep? I feel no emotional attachment to the efficacy or otherwise of homeopathy, and I'm sure others don't.

If it is proven to work that will be interesting, fascinating in fact.

How does reposting that same article contribute to the discussion? I've seen it THREE TIMES from you now.

Please answer the queries others have raised, you might go some way to persuading us you have a point to make then.

[olaf]

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

[MRC_Hans]

The only reason to weep might be because it is now at least the third time you have posted this particular trial. In consequence, this is at least the third time you are being told that that particular trial has been effectively refuted.

Come on, oaf, now is your time to show us what a complete dummy you are: Post it again! I dare you!

Hans ;)

[olaf]

Originally posted by Benguin
Why would we weep? I feel no emotional attachment to the efficacy or otherwise of homeopathy, and I'm sure others don't.

If it is proven to work that will be interesting, fascinating in fact.

wrong!

there is a great deal of emotional attachment involved. the pseudo-skeptics must not waver from the course. the course is to protect orthodox medicine from anything considered as competition.

[olaf]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
this is at least the third time you are being told that that particular trial has been effectively refuted.

Come on, oaf,

Hans ;)
rubbish.

[Psiload]

Impressive rate of fire olaf's getting out of that spam cannon. Too bad it's only firing blank loads.

[Benguin]

wrong!

Nonsense, I can unequivocally guarantee not a tear will pass from me at all.

Others can speak for themselves.

Please find me evidence of ONE person who will weep in the event of their being proved wrong about homeopathy (you can exclude yourself from the poll).

[Prester John]

The result, shortly to be published in Inflammation Research,

you have this reference do you olaf? The newspaper article is somewhat old now......

It was published wasn't it?

[garys_2k]

Originally posted by olaf
Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions.

Still, Professor Ennis was not satisfied. "In this particular trial, we stained the basophils with a dye and then hand-counted those left coloured after the histamine- inhibition reaction. You could argue that human error might enter at this stage." So she used a previously developed counting protocol that could be entirely automated. This involved tagging activated basophils with a monoclonal antibody that could be observed via fluorescence and measured by machine.

The result, shortly to be published in Inflammation Research, was the same: histamine solutions, both at pharmacological concentrations and diluted out of existence, lead to statistically significant inhibition of basophile activation by aIgE, confirming previous work in this area.

"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4152521,00.htm

read it and weep!

OK, I read it. It's too bad the real study isn't available, not just the Guardian's story about it, but whatever.

Let's say that the study was done perfectly, with no errors or bias. Perhaps it was. What does that mean, does it mean homeopathy has been proven?

No, by itself it does not. In order to be accepted and "proven," those results would have to be replicated to show that the original tests really weren't biased or just lucky.

I can't say without looking at the data what the standard of "hits" used to be considered, but it is very possible (enormously likely, I suspect in this case, given the lack of independent verification) that these were anomalous results. In other words, this is INTERESTING, at best, and it can lead one to suggest there's something, but on its own it's not all that's needed.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by olaf
Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions.

Anyone else think this has been very carefully worded to be deliberately misleading? It does not claim that the total results are "statistically significant", only positive (whatever that may mean). I suspect that is because they were NOT statistically significant overall, therefore the need to select the bits that were and report them separately.

Still I'm sure oaf will be able to provide a link to the published work which will prove my suspicions wrong?

[Benguin]

And if no one has successfully repeated this experiment, doesn't that suggest a problem with the way it was conducted?

[Rolfe]

You know, there's such a lot to be said for reading this thread with Xanta on ignore. People who want to respond to certain bits of her nonsense tend to quote them, and as for the rest, well we know what it is without even opening the posts, don't we.

H'pathy during February and March, until they banned the sceptics and poor Xanta's life's meaning was taken away, as she can't live unles she gets to post exactly the same words to a bunch of them at least twice a week. Then very recently in about four other threads in this forum.

She's got them saved, and just pops in to repost another selection every so often and then run. She's seen all the rebuttals dozens of times, though has she read them we have to ask?

Well, I think I'll consolidate a bit, I've answered all these studies already (some more than once), and I'm off on holiday now anyway.

Besides, I think Xanta's getting worse. Any apparent grip on sanity seems to be loosening rapidly.

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

Have a nice holiday ;). I'm going a week from now :D, 10 days without a computer.


Hans

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Has anyone found anything on this since 2001? Follow-ups or commentary? I can't find anything.

~~ Paul

[Timble]

I think found the original article:

Stimulatory effect of high dilutions of histamine on activation of human basophils induced by anti-IgE.
Sainte-Laudy J
Inflamm Res 2001 Apr 50 Suppl 2:S63-4

But I can't pull an abstract from anywhere, which is weird.

Horizon the BBC science documentary (I think they air as Discovery in the US tried to replicate the study, following the protocol as described.

The Programme went out in November 2002:

It found there was no effect whatsover on basophil activation, by the highly dilute solutions.

There's a transcript at http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathytrans.shtml

Whether the results were fully published, I haven't found out yet,

[Ladewig]

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

Well, I believe the only rational response to that post is to point out that "Anything you can do I can do better, I can do anything better than you."


Question 1. Olaf, do you really believe "chucking" is the best way to evaluate medical claims on a message board?


---------
Question 2. (from your first post and link)

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benveniste believes he already knows what constitutes the water-memory effect and claims to be able to record and transmit the "signals" of biochemical substances around the world via the internet. These, he claims, cause changes in biological tissues as if the substance was actually present.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you believe that homeopathic signals can be transmitted over the internet?


-----------
Question 3. (from first post and link)

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ennis: "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It has been three years, has Ennis found a rational explanation for those findings?


-----------
Question 4a and 4b.
Do you have any bouble blind studies that determined the most effective and safest level of dilution to use for each illness? If not, then isn't putting homeopathic medicines on the market dangerously premature?


------------
Question 5.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
quit being a flat earther.
"machines can't fly" -- "yes they can" -- "no they can't"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
What difference does it make to you what the people on this board believe about homeopathy? The people here have no influence in the government, the marketplace, or the media. Homeopathic solutions are sold around the world and are freely available.

------------
Observation 1

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It still works. that is why 100,000 European medical doctors plus close to 3/4 of a million Indian and Pakistani practitioners do what they do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or... Just maybe... It is possible that the doctors know a bunch of patients that believe in homeopathy and the doctors know that giving patients a few drops of water does no harm.

[Prester John]

"Stimulatory effect of high dilutions of histamine on activation of human basophils induced by anti-IgE.
Sainte-Laudy J
Inflamm Res 2001 Apr 50 Suppl 2:S63-4

But I can't pull an abstract from anywhere, which is weird."

I think the clue is in the journal. Its been published in a supplementary journal. The journals that i read use the supplemental journals to publish posters from their conferences. If this is true for Inflamm Res then we are looking at a piece of work that was published as a short extract. Conferences would typically expect a large number of poster presentations, and whilst they are all put through a limited peer review system it is no where near as rigorous as for a full paper. Infact to get a poster presented you just have to put in its abstract (a few hundred words).
I will be published in this manner later this year :)

[Timble]

Hi, Prester John, thanks for explaining supplements to the board, I hadn't thought to do that.

I was surprised that, though the thing was probably published as an abstract or poster, someone, somewhere hadn't transcribed it as supporting the case for homeopathy. I'd wondered about trawling conference proceedings,but it seemed like a needle - haystack job.

[Prester John]

was surprised that, though the thing was probably published as an abstract or poster, someone, somewhere hadn't transcribed it as supporting the case for homeopathy.

Probably because it doesn't have the word homeopathy in its title so they haven't picked up on it !

[Benguin]

Any apparent grip on sanity ...

EVIDENCE ????????

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf
wrong!

there is a great deal of emotional attachment involved. the pseudo-skeptics must not waver from the course. the course is to protect orthodox medicine from anything considered as competition.

well actually a Pseudo-skeptic is different from a skeptic. I'm sure you can look up the difference. Or maybe not.

Wishful thinking compels people to throw pennies in wishing wells. At least that money goes to some charity, usually.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Benguin
EVIDENCE ???????? I said "any apparent". I'm beginning to wonder if my brain is coming out my ears, but doesn't that leave open the possibility that there may be none?

Rolfe.

[athon]

Originally posted by olaf
wrong!

there is a great deal of emotional attachment involved. the pseudo-skeptics must not waver from the course. the course is to protect orthodox medicine from anything considered as competition.

Sorry, just have to jump in and comment on this -- mainly because it annoys me how this is still the perception of anybody who advocates CAM.

Let's see if we can put it simply; when somebody is sick, and they go to a doctor, the doctor has a range of methods at their disposal with which they can treat their patient. If it is cancer, for instance, there are various substances that can be administered that combat anything from the growth of new bloodvessels to the movement of specific cell-development proteins. They can remove the tumour using surgery. They can use chemotherapy, and they can use radiotherapy.

Often, a change in diet and lifestyle is advocated to assist in recovery.

Now, no doctor I know of reduces their options to one and only one pathway. Many tumours are treated with two to three types of drug (often made by different -- competing -- pharmaceutical companies), some surgery if it is specific to a location, followed up with chemotherapy and then a change in diet and lifestyle during the recovery phase.

Doctors have to watch patients suffer through the agony of all of this. Chemotherapy is one of the most difficult choices an oncologist has to make.

1) If homeopathy was a powerful option that could do away with the rest of the treatment, no doctor -- ever! -- would ignore it.

2) If homeopathy was a weak option, yet had its efficiency, lacking side effects would mean oncologists would again use it as part of the regime.

3) There is no such thing as competition between treatments in medicine. Sure, some doctors will choose to use some treatments over others in consideration of the patient's fitness, health, lifestyle, type and severity of illness etc. But 'competition' is not a fear the medical profession has.

There is no such thing as 'alternative' medicines. If a medicine works, it becomes part of the arsenal in physician's box of tricks. If it does not work, or has negative effects that outweigh the positives, it won't be used.

Again, I'm sure the only rebuttal that can be made to this is 'I'm such an idiot'...but at least I've said my piece.

Athon

[olaf]

Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise.

I know the feeling. i was completely surprised to discover that homeopathy worked.

I guess all it means is that man has not yet uncovered all of life's mysteries.

[Prester John]

talking like that to your computer is a bad sign olaf, so have you read the actual paper/poster or whatever it was or do you learn your science from newspapers ? (old ones at that)

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf


I know the feeling. i was completely surprised to discover that homeopathy worked.

I guess all it means is that man has not yet uncovered all of life's mysteries.

Actually, it's well known humans don't know everything. But quoting yourself simply means you're...erm, talking to yourself. Putting out the stereotypical statement "all life's mysteries are not uncovered" in an attempt to make your own point of view loftier is ...well, hot air balloons would surely benefit if we could convert it to such.

[olaf]

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532

Bizarre chemical discovery gives homeopathic hint
19:00 07 November 01


It is a chance discovery so unexpected it defies belief and threatens to reignite debate about whether there is a scientific basis for thinking homeopathic medicines really work.

A team in South Korea has discovered a whole new dimension to just about the simplest chemical reaction in the book - what happens when you dissolve a substance in water and then add more water.

Conventional wisdom says that the dissolved molecules simply spread further and further apart as a solution is diluted. But two chemists have found that some do the opposite: they clump together, first as clusters of molecules, then as bigger aggregates of those clusters. Far from drifting apart from their neighbours, they got closer together.

The discovery has stunned chemists, and could provide the first scientific insight into how some homeopathic remedies work. Homeopaths repeatedly dilute medications, believing that the higher the dilution, the more potent the remedy becomes.

[olaf]

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532

German chemist Kurt Geckeler and his colleague Shashadhar Samal stumbled on the effect while investigating fullerenes at their lab in the Kwangju Institute of Science and Technology in South Korea. They found that the football-shaped buckyball molecules kept forming untidy aggregates in solution, and Geckler asked Samal to look for ways to control how these clumps formed.

What he discovered was a phenomenon new to chemistry. "When he diluted the solution, the size of the fullerene particles increased," says Geckeler. "It was completely counterintuitive," he says.

Further work showed it was no fluke. To make the otherwise insoluble buckyball dissolve in water, the chemists had mixed it with a circular sugar-like molecule called a cyclodextrin. When they did the same experiments with just cyclodextrin molecules, they found they behaved the same way. So did the organic molecule sodium guanosine monophosphate, DNA and plain old sodium chloride.

[Benguin]

Originally posted by olaf
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532

Bizarre chemical discovery gives homeopathic hint
19:00 07 November 01


It is a chance discovery so unexpected it defies belief and threatens to reignite debate about whether there is a scientific basis for thinking homeopathic medicines really work.

A team in South Korea has discovered a whole new dimension to just about the simplest chemical reaction in the book - what happens when you dissolve a substance in water and then add more water.

Conventional wisdom says that the dissolved molecules simply spread further and further apart as a solution is diluted. But two chemists have found that some do the opposite: they clump together, first as clusters of molecules, then as bigger aggregates of those clusters. Far from drifting apart from their neighbours, they got closer together.

The discovery has stunned chemists, and could provide the first scientific insight into how some homeopathic remedies work. Homeopaths repeatedly dilute medications, believing that the higher the dilution, the more potent the remedy becomes.

Apart from having the word "Homeopath" everywhere you are going to need to explain how this proves anything. There are no molecules in a homeopathic remedy, other than H2O and a few impurities.

[athon]

Originally posted by olaf
[B they clump together, first as clusters of molecules, then as bigger aggregates of those clusters. Far from drifting apart from their neighbours, they got closer together.
[/B]

Against all wisdom, and knowing how pointless an exercise in pointing out scientifc thinking to Olaf is, I'm going to tackle this.

How in God's name does this support homeopathy? It's got one connection with it -- they both involve diluting a substance! Sex and sleeping both involve using a bed, but I don't put them in the same category.

This study says diluting a substance means some particles from the solute clump together. So? How would this affect the potency of the substance? After a number of dilutions, how are you going to locate these aggregates?

This tells us nothing, and while it is indeed an interesting find, it has nothing to do with homeopathy. I hate it when we have to lecture you on your own belief system. The least you could do is get your own pseudo-science right!

Athon

[garys_2k]

Originally posted by olaf
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532

Bizarre chemical discovery gives homeopathic hint
19:00 07 November 01


It is a chance discovery so unexpected it defies belief and threatens to reignite debate about whether there is a scientific basis for thinking homeopathic medicines really work.

A team in South Korea has discovered a whole new dimension to just about the simplest chemical reaction in the book - what happens when you dissolve a substance in water and then add more water.

Conventional wisdom says that the dissolved molecules simply spread further and further apart as a solution is diluted. But two chemists have found that some do the opposite: they clump together, first as clusters of molecules, then as bigger aggregates of those clusters. Far from drifting apart from their neighbours, they got closer together.

The discovery has stunned chemists, and could provide the first scientific insight into how some homeopathic remedies work. Homeopaths repeatedly dilute medications, believing that the higher the dilution, the more potent the remedy becomes.
So, Oaf, you're saying that in homeopathic preparations some "clumps" of molecules of the solute may exist? If so, we should be able to find them with some pretty ordinary chemical assays, right? But so far we haven't found anything, nor would doing so even if there were say anything about the myriad of other issues wrong (eg, why not just try the solute in the first place, how could "clumps" of a few molecules help more).

You really DO like talking to yourself, don't you?

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532

Bizarre chemical discovery gives homeopathic hint
19:00 07 November 01


(snipped)

Yeah, that's great. It's also right next to the top news stories like:
Secret of eternal life may give cancer cure

Microwave ovens should warn of exploding eggs

Gerbil population boom predicts plague

[Timble]

But your man himself doesn't believe that this is the explanation for homeopathy.



Other researchers failed to reproduce Benveniste's experiments, but homeopaths still believe he may have been onto something. Benveniste himself does not think the new findings explain his results because the solutions were not dilute enough. "This [phenomenon] cannot apply to high dilution," he says.

[Benguin]

Forgive me for being pedantic and off topic, but surely referring to these remedies as high dilution is inaccurate .... surely once they've gone beyond any statistical chance of still containing a molecule of the original substance, they are no longer a dilute of anything?

[olaf]

Originally posted by Benguin


Apart from having the word "Homeopath" everywhere you are going to need to explain how this proves anything. There are no molecules in a homeopathic remedy, other than H2O and a few impurities.

energy medicine==subatomic

wake up

[Benguin]

In what language exactly?

[Benguin]

In any case the study you sight is talking about molecular clumping, that is very definitely not a sub-atomic thing ..

[Prester John]

Originally posted by olaf


energy medicine==subatomic

wake up

What a well presented argument, certainly got me convinced now.



homeopathy==boll*cks

wake up

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


energy medicine==subatomic

wake up

So homeopathic remedies work through sub atomic changes? The high energy radition should be pretty easy to spot.

[olaf]

Originally posted by Benguin
In any case the study you sight is talking about molecular clumping, that is very definitely not a sub-atomic thing .. something must be happening at the subatomic level. i don't know what it is but something.

why do you people ignore the possibility of it?

madeliene ennis did not believe until she saw it.

i did not believe until i saw it (experienced it).

shocking!

i guess there are things that exist that we are not aware of yet.

i am sure that it is only a matter of time before the physicists provide the answers.

[Benguin]

Well it is a more persuasive idea than molecule memory.

Please Olaf, explain in detail how this works ...

[olaf]

Originally posted by geni


So homeopathic remedies work through sub atomic changes? The high energy radition should be pretty easy to spot.

you don't know that.

you don't know it because you don't know what is actually even happening.

[olaf]

Originally posted by Benguin
Well it is a more persuasive idea than molecule memory.

Please Olaf, explain in detail how this works ...

how should i know.

i am not a physicist nor a chemist.

all i know is that i discovered -- much to my amazement -- that it does indeed work.

shocking!

100,000 european doctors know that it works.

[Timble]

I found an abstract about quantum entanglement...fast becoming the standard explantion for the unbelievable...and homeopathy.

It's nonsense on stilts as a explanation....but olaf and Lucianarchy will have to find it for themselves. :D

[Benguin]

Sorry olaf, you can't make an appeal to a study you don't understand, invoke a theory you can't explain and then quote a statistic you can't prove ...

strike that, you've just done all three.

What you haven't done is made a convincing argument.

Please, explain in your own words how you think homeopathic medication works.

Here's a clue, the shorter it is the more likely it is to be a persuasive case.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


you don't know that.

you don't know it because you don't know what is actually even happening.

I know what happens when you do things on a subatomic level (think hiroshima) even pretty minor stuff invloves some pretty high energies.

[olaf]

Originally posted by Benguin
Sorry olaf, you can't make an appeal to a study you don't understand, invoke a theory you can't explain and then quote a statistic you can't prove ...

strike that, you've just done all three.

What you haven't done is made a convincing argument.

Please, explain in your own words how you think homeopathic medication works.

Here's a clue, the shorter it is the more likely it is to be a persuasive case.

like i said, i don't know.

all i know is that somehow, someway it does indeed work.

madeliene ennis is in the same situation as me. she was a nonbeliever but now she is searching for an explanation.

[olaf]

Originally posted by Timble
I found an abstract about quantum entanglement...fast becoming the standard explantion for the unbelievable...and homeopathy.

It's nonsense on stilts as a explanation....but olaf and Lucianarchy will have to find it for themselves. :D
show it.

what are you afraid of?

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
something must be happening at the subatomic level. i don't know what it is but something.

Not nearly enough energy involed to overcome the electrostaic repulsion.

why do you people ignore the possibility of it?


Because it is not a possibility. Some of atcherly know some physics


madeliene ennis did not believe until she saw it.


It has been shown very publicly twice that she did not in fact see it. You know this


i did not believe until i saw it (experienced it).


The "I'm a sceptic too" has lost all it's credibilty Xanta

[Benguin]

Well she isn't searching very hard, no-ones heard from her since she proved she couldn't reproduce the study.

And there is no evidence she is doing any work on the topic.

OK, accepting you believe it works but can't explain how or fully comprehend the theories behind it (I feel like that about quantum physics. And cricket).

What is the basis of your belief in it?

[olaf]

Fred Pearce of University College London, who tried to repeat Benveniste's experiments, agrees. But it could offer some clues as to why other less dilute homeopathic remedies work, he says. Large clusters and aggregates might interact more easily with biological tissue.

Chemist Jan Enberts of the University of Groningen in the Netherlands is more cautious. "It's still a totally open question," he says. "To say the phenomenon has biological significance is pure speculation." But he has no doubt Samal and Geckeler have discovered something new. "It's surprising and worrying," he says.

*******************************

yeah the pseudo-skeptics better worry. their world view may be in danger and that is too shocking to even think about.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf

show it.

what are you afraid of?

Having to explain to you what Planck's constant is. I've seen the papers. You can't remove Planck's constant for some pretty basic reasons

[olaf]

"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings."

[olaf]

Originally posted by geni


Having to explain to you what Planck's constant is. I've seen the papers. You can't remove Planck's constant for some pretty basic reasons

this constant mention of planck's is gibberish.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


this constant mention of planck's is gibberish.

Nope. The quantum entangment papers relating to homeopathy rely on say that planck's constant does not apply. I can assure you that it does

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings."

And what is interesting is that she hasn't let anyone else have a looka at how she got her findings in order to see if there is an explanation.

[Rolfe]

Gosh, Xanta's gone large bold pink. It'll be the Queen of England next!

I'm off to the hills.

Rolfe.

[Benguin]

Originally posted by olaf
Fred Pearce of University College London, who tried to repeat Benveniste's experiments, agrees. But it could offer some clues as to why other less dilute homeopathic remedies work, he says. Large clusters and aggregates might interact more easily with biological tissue.


Surely what he describes there isn't homeopathy, actual molecular presence is involved.


discovered something new. "It's surprising and worrying," he says.


Where did you get that from? I don't see what he'd be worried about.


yeah the pseudo-skeptics better worry. their world view may be in danger and that is too shocking to even think about.

Well thanks kindly for the implied ad-hom (you'll notice I've refrained from them). Please, what have I to be shocked about? I don't believe you because you've not presented a persuasive argument. If I'm wrong, it really is not going to cause me any concerns

[olaf]

Originally posted by geni



It has been shown very publicly twice that she did not in fact see it. You know this

ridiculous

[MRC_Hans]

Ahh, olaf. I found a place on my ignore list for you; since Winston has been banned, his name there is redundant. I'm giving you his place. Byeee!

Hans

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by olaf
"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the merry-go-round makes another revolution. Well, it's time for me to get off. You kids have fun now. Bye-bye.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
ridiculous

So you missed the panicly dana ullman posting all over the homeopathy boards

[olaf]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Ahh, olaf. I found a place on my ignore list for you; since Winston has been banned, his name there is redundant. I'm giving you his place. Byeee!

Hans

smart thing to do. if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

all of you are defenseless against the findings of madeliene ennis.

even randi is shaking in his shoes. that is why he had to backtrack a little while ago by stating that more research into homeopathy is needed.

he is covering his ass for the inevitable.

i will supply his quote to any who are interested.

homeopathy does indeed work -- ennis knows as do 100,000 MDs

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


smart thing to do. if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

all of you are defenseless against the findings of madeliene ennis.

No I'm not
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml

even randi is shaking in his shoes. that is why he had to backtrack a little while ago by stating that more research into homeopathy is needed.


Of course more research is needed. More ammo is always handy

he is covering his ass for the inevitable.

i will supply his quote to any who are interested.



Go on then

homeopathy does indeed work -- ennis knows as do 100,000 MDs [/B]

Source for this 100,000 MDs thing?

[Benguin]

Why would Randi care if you are right or not?

If someone proved him wrong I'm sure he'd be happy to see the million transferred over, after all it doesn't make much difference to him ... it's all publicity in the end.

I've asked you now THREE TIMES why people should be scared about homeopathy being proved valid and you have evaded responding.

Please, all I want to know is why. Those of us who are patients will be glad to see a new lot of cures for long term ailments, and the scientists will have a whole new field to go and get research grants for.

Or is this a huge strawman?

[olaf]

Originally posted by olaf
Partial extract from The Guardian 15.03.01

"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water.

In order to make sure no bias was introduced into the experiment by the scientists from the four laboratories involved, they were all "blinded" to the contents of their test solutions. In other words, they did not know whether the solutions they were adding to the basophil-aIgE reaction contained ghost amounts of histamine or just pure water. But that's not all. The ghost histamine solutions and the controls were prepared in three different laboratories that had nothing further to do with the trial.

The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise.

Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions.
[...]
"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." "



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4152521,00.htm

__________________

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

i am still waiting for someone to debunk this study (other than geni's lame attempt -- i.e., "it was debunked on TV".

give me a break!

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


i am still waiting for someone to debunk this study (other than geni's lame attempt -- i.e., "it was debunked on TV".

give me a break!

No I won't. It was debunked. the fact that it was debunked on TV is irrelivant. thw work was done by proper scientist and was cariead out according to a well designd protocol. The involment of the BBC mearly ment that you should be awaer of this fact.

[olaf]

Originally posted by geni


No I won't. It was debunked. the fact that it was debunked on TV is irrelivant. thw work was done by proper scientist and was cariead out according to a well designd protocol. The involment of the BBC mearly ment that you should be awaer of this fact. ridiculous

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
ridiculous

Say what you like. The truth wont change.

[Donks]

Olaf: How about you provide a link to the actual paper by M Roberfroid? Or at least the abstract?

[Timble]

How may time do we have to tell you that the alleged confirmation of Beneviste's work has been found to be irreproducible?

I won't bother to post the link again as it's now on about three threads and it probably constitutes spamming.

You still haven't found the article about quantum entanglement I guess, otherwise you'd be waving it around as evidence.:D

[olaf]

Originally posted by geni


Say what you like. The truth wont change. geni,

you suffer from a delusion.

it is like denying that airplanes can fly based on some ridiculous study stating so.

the study is very clear. it involved hundreds of trials and the result is significant.

that is why 100,000 european medical doctors use homeopathic remedies.

the only people who insist that they can NOT work are the diehard, negative, depressive, pessimistic pseudo-sketics.

now go see a psychiatrist and get your depression treated.

************************************************


Belon P, Cumps J, Ennis M, Mannaioni PF, Sainte-Laudy J, Roberfroid M, et al. Inhibition of human basophil degranulation by successive histamine dilutions: results of a European multi-centre trial. [PMID: 10350142] Inflamm Res. 1999;48(suppl 1):17-8.

[olaf]

Originally posted by Timble
How may time do we have to tell you that the alleged confirmation of Beneviste's work has been found to be irreproducible?

I won't bother to post the link again as it's now on about three threads and it probably constitutes spamming.

You still haven't found the article about quantum entanglement I guess, otherwise you'd be waving it around as evidence.:D

Dr. Benveniste's earlier research in Nature (June 30, 1988), which was replicated in laboratories in three other universities (in Italy, Canada, and Israel) was supposedly debunked by the editor of Nature, a specialist of scientific fraud, and a magician.

The newer research includes a series of studies conducted in four highly respected laboratories in Europe (Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Scotland). A total of 3,764 measurements were taken, and significant biological effects were found from highly diluted doses of histamine. Specifically, doses of histamine that were diluted 1:100 15 to 19 times were found to have substantially significant effects on inhibiting degranulation of basophils (p<0.0001).

********************************************

you fools are being victimized by clowns who will do anything to maintain the status quo.

they are terrified of the unknown.

*******************************************

the facts are in front of you ---- DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!

[geni]

1 million dollars says it dosen't work. Have fun

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by olaf

homeopathy does indeed work -- ennis knows as do 100,000 MDs

homeopathy is particularly popular in India where there are over 120 four-year homeopathic medical schools.

CIA World Fact Book

Life expectancy at birth:

India - 63.62 years
United States - 77.14 years

Now, why is that Olaf????

[olaf]

A total of 3,764 measurements were taken, and significant biological effects were found from highly diluted doses of histamine.




DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[An Infinite Ocean]

Prove it and collect the million dollars.

Incidentally, do you suffer from learning difficulties? Or are you just lacking basic intelligence?

[olaf]

are you dense?

the million prize is a farce. homeopathy is not a perfect science. it will not give amazingly perfect results every time. the clowns running that farce prize know this and that is why they have set up the impossible test.

get it, got it, good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

[olaf]

Originally posted by olaf
Partial extract from The Guardian 15.03.01

"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels,

.. .. Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. .. ..

The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4152521,00.htm

__________________

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by olaf
homeopathy is not a perfect science. it will not give amazingly perfect results every time.

So this is opposed to alleopathic medicine that DOES often given amazing results??

So you're saying you prefer at best mediocre results versus consistent proven treatments and methods?

[olaf]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs


So this is opposed to alleopathic medicine that DOES often given amazing results??

So you're saying you prefer at best mediocre results versus consistent proven treatments and methods?

books could be written on your post.

the only thing i will say is that there are tens of millions of people around the world who are suffering from chronic illness that modern medicine is not helping them with.

if you think that modern medicine can help people who have chronic illness then you are sadly mistaken and i don't want to argue with a 25 year old dimwit.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by olaf


books could be written on your post.

the only thing i will say is that there are tens of millions of people around the world who are suffering from chronic illness that modern medicine is not helping them with.

if you think that modern medicine can help people who have chronic illness then you are sadly mistaken and i don't want to argue with a 25 year old dimwit.

Which chronic illnesses?

Let me ask a hypothetical question...

You have a cut on your hand that has become infected. There are red lines going up your arm from the point of infection.

Which is more effective:

A homeopathic cure or $10 worth of alleopathic antibotics?

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
are you dense?

the million prize is a farce. homeopathy is not a perfect science. it will not give amazingly perfect results every time. the clowns running that farce prize know this and that is why they have set up the impossible test.

get it, got it, good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

The placebo is not a perfect medcine. It will not give amazing results every time.

[olaf]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs


Which chronic illnesses?

Let me ask a hypothetical question...

You have a cut on your hand that has become infected. There are red lines going up your arm from the point of infection.

Which is more effective:

A homeopathic cure or $10 worth of alleopathic antibotics?

quit trying to sidetrack me from driving home the ennis study.

however, i will admit that antibiotics are very powerful and effective medicines.

but there is a big downside to them as our scientists are finding out --- strains of bacteria that can NOT be killed, and severe cases of intestinal dysbiosis are cropping up all over the place.

(in the case of an infection i will not comment on which method to use because i do not practice homeopathy and i do not know how effective it is against acute infections -- possibly it is inferior to conventional methods)

(edfited for spelling)

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by olaf


quit trying to sidetrack me from driving home the ennis study.


So lets just go with "Which chronic illnesses?"

[olaf]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs


So lets just go with "Which chronic illnesses?"
NO.

i'm too smart (and lazy) to get into a dead end debate with any pseudo-skeptic here other than on homeopathy.

[Prester John]

Do you know what the Planck constant is olaf ?
or why it is important?
or why removing it from a piece of theoretical physics pretty much invalidates the work?
do you have any idea of how quantum effects can affect biochemical systems?
do you have a better theory than placebo effect to account for homeopathys percieved effects?
are you capable of coherent discussion?
do you think that appeals to popularity prove anything?
do you think the queen of england knows the answers to any of the above?
why don't you post at hpathy anymore?
why does improvement in 2 out of 20 symptoms prove homeopathy works?
have you had any lasting improvement in any of your symptoms yet?
do you understand that if A follows B it is does not follow that A caused B?

i've got to go out now, i have plenty more questions for you xanta/olaf, i doubt you can/will answer them but who knows......

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
[B]

quit trying to sidetrack me from driving home the ennis study.


We have no interest in disscussing an article that has been so effectivly de-bunked


but there is a big downside to them as our scientists are finding out --- strains of bacteria that can NOT be killed, and sever cases of intestinal dysbiosis are cropping up all over the place.

So we go back to where we were before we disscoved anti-botics. Or we would if it wasn't for the invention of new ones

[Prester John]

but there is a big downside to them as our scientists are finding out --- strains of bacteria that can NOT be killed

not actually got any of them yet, so wrong there xanta. Never let the truth get in way tho eh!

[olaf]

Boissel 1996
Report for European Commission. 15 trials. Very strict inclusion criteria. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the significance levels (p-values) for the primary outcomes from each trial.
 Combined p value for the 15 trials was highly significant p=0.0002.
 ' There is evidence that homeopathic medicine is more effective than placebo' .
 Little evidence of publication bias.
 Further high quality studies are needed.


Linde 1997
Lancet. 89 trials. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the odds ratios.
 Combined odds ratio 2.45 (95% CI 2.05, 2.93) in favour of homeopathy.
 Odds ratio for 26 best quality studies was 1.66.
 No evidence of significant publication bias.
 The results are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo.

[olaf]

Physician David Reilly of the Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital in Scotland and his colleagues determined what substance caused the allergies of 51 patients, then had a supplier create pills with these substances diluted to infinitesimal levels. Compared to a placebo group, the patients who got the homeopathic treatment had significantly less nasal congestion. However, the patients' subjective evaluations of their condition did not differ between the groups.

Combined with the results from the team's three previous trials -- which used a similar regimen against hay fever and allergies -- the work suggests that homeopathy is more than a placebo, Reilly and colleagues conclude in the

August 19-26 issue of the British Medical Journal.

[olaf]

why do you people continue to think that i am xanta just because i use her research (too lazy to find my own)?

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by olaf

NO.

i'm too smart (and lazy) to get into a dead end debate with any pseudo-skeptic here other than on homeopathy.

Then why post here? Are we supposed to take what you post on faith?

You claim homeopathy is proven to work.

But that it's results are not perfect.

You also state homeopathy can help millions of people worldwide with "chronic illnesses".

But then you state that you would probably use alleopathy for a simple blood infection over homeopathy - a SIMPLE blood infection???

So alleopathy daily heals hundreds of thousands of common infections that would otherwise result in "chronic illness" or death, but homeopathy may be the answer?

(Keep in mind that I am using just one example of alleopathy's effectiveness as an example.)

[olaf]

100,000 european medical doctors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by olaf
100,000 european medical doctors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Keeping repeating it... maybe someone someday will believe you.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
why do you people continue to think that i am xanta just because i use her research (too lazy to find my own)?

Same typeing style same spamming same total inbilty to take on board crtitism of your pet "evidence" oh and I you are useing Xanta's "reasearch" then you must have noticed starburn and others distroying it.

[olaf]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs


Then why post here? Are we supposed to take what you post on faith?

You claim homeopathy is proven to work.

But that it's results are not perfect.

You also state homeopathy can help millions of people worldwide with "chronic illnesses".

But then you state that you would probably use alleopathy for a simple blood infection over homeopathy - a SIMPLE blood infection???

So alleopathy daily heals hundreds of thousands of common infections that would otherwise result in "chronic illness" or death, but homeopathy may be the answer?

(Keep in mind that I am using just one example of alleopathy's effectiveness as an example.)

i am not sure what i would do in this situation. i have only has one such infection that i can remember. it was a staph infection 8 years ago and antibiotics treated it fairly quickly.

the only problem was that i got a respiratory infection about 2 months later -- the first time i ever got one of those.

--and then my health went straight to hell shortly after. i have some solid evidence that the antibiotics messed up my gut flora but i am not going to argue with a bunch of pseudo-skeptics over these points.

[Timble]

Olaf, all that screaming can't be doing you any good.

Are you taking something homeopathic for the stress?

BTW: antibiotics are well known for taking out your gut flora, some people recommend live yoghurts and the probiotic stuff, but I really have no idea if they help.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by olaf
these points.

You mean where alleopathy saved your life?

[olaf]

100,000 european medical doctors.

(there is that better?)



http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/survey.html



. . In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners, 700 veterinarians and 2 000 dentists (5%) prescribe homeopathic medicines to their patients. This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths.
.

[olaf]

it works, that is why so many doctors use it

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
100,000 european medical doctors.

(there is that better?)



http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/survey.html



. . In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners, 700 veterinarians and 2 000 dentists (5%) prescribe homeopathic medicines to their patients. This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths.
.

Still falling short of your 100,000 medical doctors

[olaf]

100,000 european medical doctors

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
it works, that is why so many doctors use it

It doesn't work. That is what the evidence says

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf

100,000 european medical doctors


Prove it

[Donks]

Originally posted by olaf

100,000 european medical doctors


Honestly, repeating this in a variety of colors and font sizes will not convince anyone or help your credibility. This is, as has been pointed out about 57 times, a logical fallacy. Stop using it already.

[An Infinite Ocean]

Originally posted by olaf
if you think that modern medicine can help people who have chronic illness then you are sadly mistaken and i don't want to argue with a 25 year old dimwit.
Why? Don't you like arguing with people that are older than you?

I had guessed your age to be something like 14. Certainly no older than 16. If you are over 25 then you are clearly even more derranged than I first thought.

[MRC_Hans]

We have here another example of someone doing more harm to the credibility of the system they believe in that a dozen skeptics could do. Just like Karen Boesen. With friends like olaf, homeopathy does not need enemies.

Hans

[olaf]

Originally posted by olaf
100,000 european medical doctors.

(there is that better?)



http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/survey.html



. . In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners, 700 veterinarians and 2 000 dentists (5%) prescribe homeopathic medicines to their patients. This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths.
.

hans,
choke on this for a while.

[MRC_Hans]

Yeah, just dig yourself in deeper....

Hans

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


hans,
choke on this for a while.

Why? it's just a blip related to the way the french healthcare system is set up.

[olaf]

i would hardly call ------------- 32% -------------------- a blip.

would you?

[olaf]

nor would i call 54,000 german MDs a blip

[Fordama]

Originally posted by olaf


hans,
choke on this for a while. I'm not sure what he supposed to choke on? Is it the fact that some French doctors have basically prescibed nearly costless placebos to boost their own share of the socialized medicine pie in France?

Sounds like a nice little scam!

Fordama

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
i would hardly call ------------- 32% -------------------- a blip.

would you?

Yes I would since it has everything to do with how the french healthcare system is run and nothing to do with the efffectivness or other wise of homeopathy.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
nor would i call 54,000 german MDs a blip

Source?

[olaf]

Originally posted by olaf
Partial extract from The Guardian 15.03.01

"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water.

In order to make sure no bias was introduced into the experiment by the scientists from the four laboratories involved, they were all "blinded" to the contents of their test solutions. In other words, they did not know whether the solutions they were adding to the basophil-aIgE reaction contained ghost amounts of histamine or just pure water. But that's not all. The ghost histamine solutions and the controls were prepared in three different laboratories that had nothing further to do with the trial.

The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise.

Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions.
[...]
"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." "



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4152521,00.htm

__________________

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

you have no answer for this :D :D :D

close to 4000 trials yet you think it was successfully debunked on TV ----- :D :D :D

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by olaf
Fred Pearce of University College London, who tried to repeat Benveniste's experiments, agrees. But it could offer some clues as to why other less dilute homeopathic remedies work, he says. Large clusters and aggregates might interact more easily with biological tissue.

Chemist Jan Enberts of the University of Groningen in the Netherlands is more cautious. "It's still a totally open question," he says. "To say the phenomenon has biological significance is pure speculation." But he has no doubt Samal and Geckeler have discovered something new. "It's surprising and worrying," he says.

*******************************

yeah the pseudo-skeptics better worry. their world view may be in danger and that is too shocking to even think about.

Xanta

You haven't forgotten that the diluted remedy is often dried onto tablets have you?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by geni


So you missed the panicly dana ullman posting all over the homeopathy boards

Do you have a link for that?

[olaf]

. A total of 3,764 measurements were taken, and significant biological effects were found from highly diluted doses of histamine.
.

what part of significant do you not understand? :D :D :D

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
. A total of 3,764 measurements were taken, and significant biological effects were found from highly diluted doses of histamine.
.

what part of significant do you not understand? :D :D :D

That when it was repeated the results were no different from chance.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by olaf
why do you people continue to think that i am xanta just because i use her research (too lazy to find my own)?

1. Same posts

2. Same chronic health problem

3. Same monomania

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Xanta

Are we to assume from this new burst of enthusiasm that another symptom has gone away? But the hypomania has persisted?

What remedy are you currently taking?

Are you aware that according to Hahnemann a single dose of the correct remedy should have effected a permanent and complete cure? What the hell went wrong with your treatment? Are you going to get your money back?

[geni]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey


Do you have a link for that?
http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=118&

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by geni

http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=118&

Ah, I'm back to needing a good recommendation for a proxy server service since they killed my last sock-puppet and banned IPs can't even load the site any more. Megaproxy?

[Donks]

From "Les médecins: Estimations au 1er janvier 2003", published by the Ministries of Health, Family and Handicapped persons, and of Social Issues, Work and Solidarity. Available in French, in PDF format
here (http://www.sante.gouv.fr/drees/seriestat/pdf/seriestat57.pdf).

I'll translate some things and put them in parenthesis. Don't like it, get someone that reads french.

First, lets look at table 1a. "Ensemble des médecins" (All medical practitioners) on page 17. (15 on the pdf), we can see the total number is 201 400.

Now lets look at the table 1c. " Médecins acupuncteurs et homéopathes" (Acupuncture and homeopaths) on page 19 (17 on pdf).There are 1760 that practice both, 3798 that practice only acupuncture, and 4485 that practice homeopathy only. Total: 10043

10043/201400 is 0.049, so about 5%.

Edit: Oh, and on the plan for 2004 is a study on the market share on homeopathic medicins,no idea when the results will be out.

[Capsid]

Usually when scientists find something of significance it is followed up with further research. So why hasn't Ennis and her collaboraters done so? After all this is 3 years ago now and there is a million dollars on offer.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey


Ah, I'm back to needing a good recommendation for a proxy server service since they killed my last sock-puppet and banned IPs can't even load the site any more. Megaproxy?

No it's OK they've not got all my numbers so I've just read the page.

Certainly Ullman sounded pretty panicky.

It also explains something that had been confusing me. I've read previously about a 'doomed to fail' replication of Ennis's woo experiment and gathered there is much bickering over the detailed protocol being used for the TV show's study. Am I right in thinking that this is typical Americanocentricity complaining about this US experiment and not Horizon's previous shooting down in flames of Ennis's work?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Donks
From "Les médecins: Estimations au 1er janvier 2003", published by the Ministries of Health, Family and Handicapped persons, and of Social Issues, Work and Solidarity. Available in French, in PDF format
here (http://www.sante.gouv.fr/drees/seriestat/pdf/seriestat57.pdf).

I'll translate some things and put them in parenthesis. Don't like it, get someone that reads french.

First, lets look at table 1a. "Ensemble des médecins" (All medical practitioners) on page 17. (15 on the pdf), we can see the total number is 201 400.

Now lets look at the table 1c. " Médecins acupuncteurs et homéopathes" (Acupuncture and homeopaths) on page 19 (17 on pdf).There are 1760 that practice both, 3798 that practice only acupuncture, and 4485 that practice homeopathy only. Total: 10043

10043/201400 is 0.049, so about 5%.

Edit: Oh, and on the plan for 2004 is a study on the market share on homeopathic medicins,no idea when the results will be out.

Can 10043 French doctors really be wrong?

Yes.

Now Xanta, about your overhyped numbers....

[olaf]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey


Can 10043 French doctors really be wrong?

Yes.

Now Xanta, about your overhyped numbers.... . . In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners, 700 veterinarians and 2 000 dentists (5%) prescribe homeopathic medicines to their patients. This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths.

[Donks]

10043 French doctors
10043 French doctors
10043 French doctors

[olaf]

Originally posted by olaf
. . In France .

This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths.


This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths.

well, it certainly seems like about 10,000 of them consider themselves to be homeopaths!!!!!! :D :D :D

the other 8,000 still practice eclecticly.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
. . In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners, 700 veterinarians and 2 000 dentists (5%) prescribe homeopathic medicines to their patients. This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths.

Source? Whatever you figures have been comprihensivly trashed

[olaf]

Originally posted by Donks
10043 French doctors
10043 French doctors
10043 French doctors donks,
thanks for the info. you solidified my research.

another 8,000 prescribe remedies but don't consider themselves to be hardcore homeopaths.

thanks! :D

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Xanta

What remedy are you currently taking?

[geni]

Originally posted by Donks
10043 French doctors
10043 French doctors
10043 French doctors

The number of homeopaths going by your figures is 6245. Your figure includes those who pratice acupuinture.

[Donks]

Originally posted by olaf
donks,
thanks for the info. you solidified my research.

another 8,000 prescribe remedies but don't consider themselves to be hardcore homeopaths.

thanks! :D

Those mythical 8000 would ammount to 4% more. You're still missing 26%. And sources. Yes, let's not forget those.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
donks,
thanks for the info. you solidified my research.

another 8,000 prescribe remedies but don't consider themselves to be hardcore homeopaths.

thanks! :D

The correct figure is 6245. That means you need to find another 12000 have fun.

[Donks]

Originally posted by geni


The number of homeopaths going by your figures is 6245. Your figure includes those who pratice acupuinture.

Yeah, but I decided not to split hairs too much, I'll let her have his 3800 acupuncturers :)

Edit: him to her.

[An Infinite Ocean]

What's this American experiment I keep hearing about? Someone trying to replicate the experiments of Benveniste/Ennis?

[geni]

Originally posted by An Infinite Ocean
What's this American experiment I keep hearing about? Someone trying to replicate the experiments of Benveniste/Ennis?

I think it'sa got something to do with the 20/20 show which embarised homeopaths to quite a degree. Search the comentries for more detials.

[DangerousBeliefs]

I'm still wanting to know what Olaf thinks homeopathy fixes...

I don't care if it's 1 or a million doctors which give patients homeopathic remedies...

What does homeopathy fix that alleopathy doesn't do better?

What are these chronic illnesses?

US leading causes of death in 1900:

1. Pneumonia and flu
2. Tuberculosis
3. Diarrhea
4. Heart disease
5. Intracranul lesions
6. Nephritis (Kidney disorder)
7. All accidents
8. Cancer
9. Senility
10. Diphtheria

*Source CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/statab/lead1900_98.pdf)

As of 1998, suicide is the EIGHTH greatest killer in the United States. That's a hard one for alleopathic medicine to treat... could we start putting a homeopathic cure in the tap water or something?

[olaf]

hans egebo,

how are you going to refute:

"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water.

********************************

you claim to have bought a homeopathic remedy. do you really think that a single half-hearted attempt by a person who has already made up his mind is going to reveal anything?

[olaf]

.
. A total of 3,764 measurements were taken, and significant biological effects were found from highly diluted doses of histamine.


hans egebo,

3764 measurements versus your single measurement. do you care to comment?

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by olaf
.
. A total of 3,764 measurements were taken, and significant biological effects were found from highly diluted doses of histamine.

OLAF! QUIT lying about homeopathy!!!!!!!

[Benguin]

Olaf,

Any scientific research is only of value if it produces a reproducable experiment. What is the point of either the beiniviste or ennis studies if they cannot explain to other scientists how to do an experiment the same way producing the same results?

Jeez, that is first year science in any school.

If no-one can reproduce it, they either missed an importatn factor, or there was a flaw in the conduct of the experiment. That doesn't disprove the results, it just says they've got to go back to the drawing board.

The research is not acceptable until it produces a reproducable test. That applies to any research in any field.

[olaf]

Originally posted by Benguin
Olaf,

Any scientific research is only of value if it produces a reproducable experiment. What is the point of either the beiniviste or ennis studies if they cannot explain to other scientists how to do an experiment the same way producing the same results?

Jeez, that is first year science in any school.

If no-one can reproduce it, they either missed an importatn factor, or there was a flaw in the conduct of the experiment. That doesn't disprove the results, it just says they've got to go back to the drawing board.

The research is not acceptable until it produces a reproducable test. That applies to any research in any field.

it is reproducible.

ennis set out once and for all to debunk it. you know the result.

has she done it again? has anyone from the 4 universities done it again. possibly.

all i know is that a study like she conducted costs a lot of money and a lot of time.

who is going to pay?

people are busy.

the drug companies fund much of the research. people don't care about homeopathy.

there have been hundreds of excellent studies published over the years but the pseudo-skeptics ignore them. almost everyone ignores them.

the pseudo-skeptics are scared of this type of study because it can be reproduced over and over and over.

of course, if some evil debunker researcher wants to sabotage the results he can easily do so.

plus, look at what that liar ---ROLFE--- just got finished saying about her incredible ability to manipulate statistics.

the truth becomes a lie and the lies become the truth.

(good luck with western medicine -- i think you already know what a failure it is -- concerning homeopathy, nobody wants to be duped ------ i found my answer)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by olaf
-- concerning homeopathy, nobody wants to be duped ------ i found my answer)

So how many symptoms is it now?

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf
[B]

it is reproducible.

ennis set out once and for all to debunk it. you know the result.



Yep it was de-bunked

has she done it again? has anyone from the 4 universities done it again. possibly.

all i know is that a study like she conducted costs a lot of money and a lot of time.


In comparisonto many other areas of research? Not really.


who is going to pay?

people are busy.


No one the research has been shown to be imposible to reproduce.

the drug companies fund much of the research. people don't care about homeopathy.


Strange they don't seem to fund much of the research in my deparment at uni.


there have been hundreds of excellent studies published over the years but the pseudo-skeptics ignore them. almost everyone ignores them.


There has not been one properly conducted trial that has produced repeaterble posertive results for homeopathy.


the pseudo-skeptics are scared of this type of study because it can be reproduced over and over and over.


No we are not. You are scared that the real world evidnece does not support your world view.


of course, if some evil debunker researcher wants to sabotage the results he can easily do so.


Prove it (hint lible is not a good idea)


the truth becomes a lie and the lies become the truth.


wrong

(good luck with western medicine -- i think you already know what a failure it is -- concerning homeopathy, nobody wants to be duped ------ i found my answer)


When you get something serious (ie fatel) I hope you will use real medcine to solvethe problem.

[Benguin]

Well I hope olaf does too, I don't wish suffering on anyone. I won't waste time and money on water drops that no-one can prove will help.

OK Olaf, just out of curiosity.

Let's assume you were a homeopath;

I come to you with thjumbs that are physically damaged, painful, loose in their sockets and arthritc on one side. I explain this started being a problem for me after a heavy fall.

What would your diagnosis be?
What would be the treatment/referral?
What would be the prognosis?

I can't ask this on hpathy as they just ban people for asking real questions.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by olaf

(good luck with western medicine -- i think you already know what a failure it is -- concerning homeopathy, nobody wants to be duped ------ i found my answer)

Could you give an example?

I pointed out one western medicine (antibotics) which you admit is probably better than homeopathy, to the point where you admitted taking it over possible homeopathic curealls.

I posted about the major causes of death in 1900. Are you claiming that homeopathy was the reason that mass deaths from Pneumonia and flu, Tuberculosis, Diarrhea, and Diphtheria (small list of diseases wiped out or reduced by western medicine) are a thing of the past in countries that practice western medicine?

Meanwhile, in a country which you claim is in the forefront of this homeopathic medicine revolution - INDIA - there are epidemics of polio, tuberculosis, and measles. In fact, according to WHO, India ranks in the lower third of the 191 countries it monitors for life expectency at birth...

[Jeepers]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs



Meanwhile, in a country which you claim is in the forefront of this homeopathic medicine revolution - INDIA - there are epidemics of polio, tuberculosis, and measles. In fact, according to WHO, India ranks in the lower third of the 191 countries it monitors for life expectency at birth...

I think that has a lot to do with economics and sanitation. You are not using a representative population in your arguement. Poor people everywhere have limited access to health care no matter what type.

Jeepers!

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by Jeepers


I think that has a lot to do with economics and sanitation. You are not using a representative population in your arguement. Poor people everywhere have limited access to health care no matter what type.

Jeepers!

I suspect that is exactly why people turn to homeopathy in India... the masses are uneducated and the "cure" is cheap. And I agree with you, if people could afford more and better medicine (alleopathic) in India, the poor would benefit greatly.

My original question for Olaf stands... what "chronic illnesses" is modern medicine not effective in treating?

[Jeepers]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs


I suspect that is exactly why people turn to homeopathy in India... the masses are uneducated and the "cure" is cheap. And I agree with you, if people could afford more and better medicine (alleopathic) in India, the poor would benefit greatly.



hmmm....homeopathy might be cheaper, but it is likely still too expensive for many people, especially those in the rural villages. Not saying one is better than the other...but that BOTH types of health care are probably unavailable to millions there. I am not out to debate your arguement with Olaf...just preferring that people don't use random statistics to try and make a point when the statistics are not specific to the question. It's like the green M&M exercise in stats.

Jeepers

[Ed]

Originally posted by olaf


i can't do it.

besides, the mind plays tricks on people. that is why the placebo effect is so confounding to researchers.


OK, got it. You really don't have a clue about science and you are berift of curiosity. Sad combination.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Jeepers


hmmm....homeopathy might be cheaper, but it is likely still too expensive for many people, especially those in the rural villages. Not saying one is better than the other...but that BOTH types of health care are probably unavailable to millions there. I am not out to debate your arguement with Olaf...just preferring that people don't use random statistics to try and make a point when the statistics are not specific to the question. It's like the green M&M exercise in stats.

Jeepers

If they drink water, which presumably they do, they are indeed practiceing homeopathy.

[olaf]

Originally posted by Benguin
Well I hope olaf does too, I don't wish suffering on anyone. I won't waste time and money on water drops that no-one can prove will help.

OK Olaf, just out of curiosity.

Let's assume you were a homeopath;

I come to you with thjumbs that are physically damaged, painful, loose in their sockets and arthritc on one side. I explain this started being a problem for me after a heavy fall.

What would your diagnosis be?
What would be the treatment/referral?
What would be the prognosis?

I can't ask this on hpathy as they just ban people for asking real questions.

i really don't know, but physical damage such as emphysema will not respond. i.e, the emphysema will not reverse itself.

[olaf]

Originally posted by olaf
Partial extract from The Guardian 15.03.01

"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water.

In order to make sure no bias was introduced into the experiment by the scientists from the four laboratories involved, they were all "blinded" to the contents of their test solutions. In other words, they did not know whether the solutions they were adding to the basophil-aIgE reaction contained ghost amounts of histamine or just pure water. But that's not all. The ghost histamine solutions and the controls were prepared in three different laboratories that had nothing further to do with the trial.

The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise.

Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions.
[...]
"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." "



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4152521,00.htm

__________________

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief"

deal with it! :D

[olaf]

Originally posted by olaf
"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings."

the truth is stranger than fiction.

[Jeepers]

Originally posted by Ed


If they drink water, which presumably they do, they are indeed practiceing homeopathy.

Way to side step the statistics issue. :crc:

Jeepers

[olaf]

Originally posted by olaf
100,000 european medical doctors.

(there is that better?)



http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/survey.html



. . In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners, 700 veterinarians and 2 000 dentists (5%) prescribe homeopathic medicines to their patients. This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths.
.

they use it because they know it works.

truth is stranger than fiction.

[Prester John]

Originally posted by Jeepers


hmmm....homeopathy might be cheaper, but it is likely still too expensive for many people, especially those in the rural villages. Not saying one is better than the other...but that BOTH types of health care are probably unavailable to millions there. I am not out to debate your arguement with Olaf...just preferring that people don't use random statistics to try and make a point when the statistics are not specific to the question. It's like the green M&M exercise in stats.

Jeepers

Makes you wonder about the ethics of those homeopaths then if their services cannot be afforded by the poor. Their material costs are minimal. Maybe they are not as altruistic as they would claim to be.

[Prester John]

Originally posted by Prester John
Do you know what the Planck constant is olaf ?
or why it is important?
or why removing it from a piece of theoretical physics pretty much invalidates the work?
do you have any idea of how quantum effects can affect biochemical systems?
do you have a better theory than placebo effect to account for homeopathys percieved effects?
are you capable of coherent discussion?
do you think that appeals to popularity prove anything?
do you think the queen of england knows the answers to any of the above?
why don't you post at hpathy anymore?
why does improvement in 2 out of 20 symptoms prove homeopathy works?
have you had any lasting improvement in any of your symptoms yet?
do you understand that if A follows B it is does not follow that A caused B?

i've got to go out now, i have plenty more questions for you xanta/olaf, i doubt you can/will answer them but who knows......

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by olaf


they use it because they know it works.

truth is stranger than fiction.

On what illnesses? Staph infections?

[Fordama]

Originally posted by olaf


they use it because they know it works.

truth is stranger than fiction. Far more people believe in astrology, so by your logic.......

Fordama

[Eos of the Eons]

This circus act is still on too? I'm saying jeepers too.

Still, no answer to my questions. How does water have memory and what proof is there?

I see proof that homeopathy is water and it only works when you believe. Just like with those evangelists-you have to believe their touch will cure you.

No thanks, I'd rather delude myself that chocolate will cure all that ails me. At least it's cheaper and the ingredients on the label are actually in the product.

Mmmmm, chocolate.

[olaf]

Originally posted by olaf
"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings."

whoops, wrong quote.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


whoops, wrong quote.

What say you stop quoting and start debating.

[olaf]

A total of 3,764 measurements were taken, and significant biological effects were found from highly diluted doses of histamine.



pseudo-skeptics,

what part of "SIGNIFICANT" do you not understand? :)

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


A total of 3,764 measurements were taken, and significant biological effects were found from highly diluted doses of histamine.



pseudo-skeptics,

what part of "SIGNIFICANT" do you not understand? :)

Dunno about pseudo-skeptics but if there is a real effect why did atempts to repeat it fail?

[olaf]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
This circus act is still on too? I'm saying jeepers too.

Still, no answer to my questions. How does water have memory and what proof is there?



the answer will come from our physicists.

anyone who thinks that all of life's mysteries are solved is an idiot.

why do you think so many MDs use this healing method?

simple answer --- it works!

[olaf]

Originally posted by geni


Dunno about pseudo-skeptics but if there is a real effect why did atempts to repeat it fail?

what are you talking about?

are you talking about that farce that was on TV?

the botched protocol using ammonium chloride?

[Donks]

Ultramolecular homeopathy had no observable clinical effects. Source (http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/abstract.asp?ref=0306-5251&vid=56&iid=5&aid=14&s=&site=1)

What part of "no" don't you understand?

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


the answer will come from our physicists.

The answer has already arived. It doesn't work


anyone who thinks that all of life's mysteries are solved is an idiot.


Appeal to ignorace logical fallicy


why do you think so many MDs use this healing method?

simple answer --- it works! [/B]

Because:

A not that many MDs do use it
and
B MDs can make mistakes too.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf


the answer will come from our physicists.

anyone who thinks that all of life's mysteries are solved is an idiot.

why do you think so many MDs use this healing method?

simple answer --- it works!

So I guess that's a no, Xanta won't actively debate her point of view.
But once again she'll toss up strawmen, try a fallacious appeal to authority, and bear as fact a conclusion that she has yet to support.

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


what are you talking about?

are you talking about that farce that was on TV?

the botched protocol using ammonium chloride?

You are making a very serius acusation. Back it up.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by olaf


the truth is stranger than fiction. This post has been reported for possible spam.

I think this is a boarder-line case, olaf. You've posted the quote once. That should be sufficent. Consider this your fair warning to cease and desist.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Olaf

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870436813#post1870436813

DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[olaf]

Originally posted by Upchurch
This post has been reported for possible spam.

I think this is a boarder-line case, olaf. You've posted the quote once. That should be sufficent. Consider this your fair warning to cease and desist.

all right I QUIT!!!!

I'm out of here!

you people will be sorry.

you'll be bored without me.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf


all right I QUIT!!!!

I'm out of here!

you people will be sorry.

you'll be bored without me.

"You'll be sorry when I wun away and then you'll know how much you wuv me!"

[olaf]

Originally posted by Upchurch
This post has been reported for possible spam.

I think this is a boarder-line case, olaf. You've posted the quote once. That should be sufficent. Consider this your fair warning to cease and desist.


yo upchurch,

repetition is the mother of learning.

i really think these guys are about to crack. i have had them on the ropes for some time now.

they have no credible answer for the ennis study.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf



yo upchurch,

repetition is the mother of learning.

i really think these guys are about to crack. i have had them on the ropes for some time now.

they have no credible answer for the ennis study.

BWAHAHAHAHA!

You abusive repulsive liar!

How's your campaign to get me kicked off this forum going?

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf



yo upchurch,

repetition is the mother of learning.

i really think these guys are about to crack. i have had them on the ropes for some time now.

Crack? Please. You have a 100% percent recoed of defeat here and at hpathy. It's not going to change anytime soon

they have no credible answer for the ennis study. [/B]

We do. You just wont listen.

[Fordama]

Originally posted by olaf


why do you think so many MDs use this healing method?
Simpler answer : money. They get money for dispensing something that is probable worthless at worse, and easy on the overhead at best.

Fordama

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by olaf


the answer will come from our physicists.

anyone who thinks that all of life's mysteries are solved is an idiot.

why do you think so many MDs use this healing method?

simple answer --- it works!

The answer will not come our physicists, and that answer is a cop out as usual.


Any MD that uses homeopathy will not be visted by me ever because they are being unethical.

It does not work. We have proven it does not work AND why it does not work.

Your feeble broken record is wearing thin. It is still boring.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Olaf

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870436813#post1870436813

DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still not dealt with it!

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by olaf
repetition is the mother of learning.Do you really think you're doing anything good for yourself or your case by posting the same quote over and over (8 times at least in the same font and color)?

"the results compel me to suspend my disbelief" The only thing it's doing to me, is enforcing my disbelief in your ability to participate in a discussion in a civilized way.

Olaf stop repeating yourself!

(You might see this last one again)

[Timble]

Originally posted by olaf


they have no credible answer for the ennis study.



The link has been posted numerous times, to do it any more would be spamming.

How do you respond to the British Journal of Pharmacology article?....The link posted by Donks.

If homeopathy works, it should have induced belladonna-like symptoms. Nothing happened. We're talking people here too, not white blood cells.

Your insightful views on this?

Why do GPs use it? Sometimes to get someone who's got nothing in particular wrong with them out of the clinic.

[olaf]

Originally posted by Timble


The link has been posted numerous times, to do it any more would be spamming.

How do you respond to the British Journal of Pharmacology article?....The link posted by Donks.

.

let's see --- the british journal of DRUGS.

now i don't imagine they would be biased would they?

they don't have an agenda do they? :D :D :D :D :D

[geni]

Originally posted by olaf


let's see --- the british journal of DRUGS.

pharmacology is not equal to drugs.


now i don't imagine they would be biased would they?


Doesn't matter. Unless you can prove the paper is flawed you must accept it's conclusions

they don't have an agenda do they? :D :D :D :D :D

Not really. They can't aford to publish bed research since it would hurt them in the long run.

[Timble]

Originally posted by olaf



they don't have an agenda do they? :D :D :D :D :D



To be picky, Pharmacology is the study of the effect of drugs.

You're obviously incapable of critiquing a paper, why do you wave round the Ennis paper, when you don't understand it?

Do you actually know what a basophil is?


Don't Homeopathy (formerly the British Journal of Homeopathy), The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, etc have agendas?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by olaf

yo upchurch,

repetition is the mother of learning.Perhaps, but I highly recommend learning this lesson because I won't be repeating myself.

[olaf]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Perhaps, but I highly recommend learning this lesson because I won't be repeating myself.

no problem.

however, if i get banned it could be a good thing. being on the internet too much can be a negative thing.

i do think the pseudo-skeptics need people like me to show them the other side of the story.

the truth is discovered once you start experimenting. just ask madeliene ennis.

[geni]

When you start to experiment? Ah yes

CONCLUSIONS: This study provides no evidence that adjunctive homeopathic remedies, as prescribed by experienced homeopathic practitioners, are superior to placebo in improving the quality of life of children with mild to moderate asthma in addition to conventional treatment in primary care.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12668794&dopt=Abstract

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf


no problem.

however, if i get banned it could be a good thing. being on the internet too much can be a negative thing.

i do think the pseudo-skeptics need people like me to show them the other side of the story.

the truth is discovered once you start experimenting. just ask madeliene ennis.

Yes Xanta, must of us figured very early on you WANT to get banned so you can claim that Randiland folks are unfair and evil. Your AGENDA was to get kicked off so that you could run to your homeo-buddies claiming you were unfairly treated. Funny thing, though, is that YOU are the one flaming and accusing others of the very thing you yourself do.
You also make the same mistakes over and over, such as calling people "pseudo-skeptic." Your use of the term indicates you have no actual conception of what it means.
And as for your "the truth is out there," find us a repeatable viable verifiable lab procedure that supports even ONE method that homeopathy supposedly works, including this "vital force" or "memory molecules," etc etc.
Ah dang... I did it again. I wasted perfectly good time and bandwidth on someone who will conveniently ignore me unless I say something like "c*ck sucker" and then she'll just focus on the "c*ck sucker" part and simply ignore the rest as usual.
Though, I do wonder how Xanta's efforts to get me outed from the forum are going.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by olaf
however, if i get banned it could be a good thing. being on the internet too much can be a negative thing.
I dont think you'll be banned anytime soon, your method of spamming isnt really a patron evil.

i do think the pseudo-skeptics need people like me to show them the other side of the story.
What are you talking about? You yourself admitted you cannot distinguish between a homeopathic remedy and placebo, that should pretty much speak for itself: There is no "other side of the story".

[Zep]

Did oaf/Xanta say this?i do think the pseudo-skeptics need people like me to show them the other side of the story.Just a sec - she is on my Ignore list so I have to go back and check... {Zep searches} ...OK, yes, she did!

I would actually agree with you, oaf. We do need someone to show us the other side, the silly side, the irrational side, the plain nuts side. Without you for comparison we would not realise how much misinformation and prejudice there is being generated out there against science and logic, and their attendant disciplines like medicine. How many boogey-man stories, how much outdated and insane posturing masquerading as medicine actually exists. How many people are going to be persuaded to throw away good money after bad practice. How many people will be suckered by pretend "professionals" who know full well that they are playing their clients and their children for fools, and yet cheerfully take their money and give them no more than sugared water in return.

Yes, thanks, oaf/Xanta - we owe you a debt of gratitude for keeping us, the sane people, from getting complacent about the likes of you.

[An Infinite Ocean]

It's quite funny really - Olaf started out as borderline retard/troll, but completely crossed over to Trollsvile some time ago.

Just when you think it can't get any more trollish, it pushes back the boundaries once again.

I suspect that Olaf actually accepts that homeopathy is crap, but just enjoys winding people up. It's recent posts have been slightly too detached from reality even for a h'pathy regular.

[olaf]

Originally posted by An Infinite Ocean
It's quite funny really - Olaf started out as borderline retard/troll, but completely crossed over to Trollsvile some time ago.

Just when you think it can't get any more trollish, it pushes back the boundaries once again.

I suspect that Olaf actually accepts that homeopathy is crap, but just enjoys winding people up. It's recent posts have been slightly too detached from reality even for a h'pathy regular.

what are you talking about?

i am posting good information.

the ennis study is top of the line!!!

read it and weep. you people have no answer for it.

you are the same people who 100 years ago insisted that machines can't fly.

you are a bunch of negative, pessimistic, downers -- DEPRESSIVES.

you have brain lock.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by An Infinite Ocean
It's quite funny really - Olaf started out as borderline retard/troll, but completely crossed over to Trollsvile some time ago.

Just when you think it can't get any more trollish, it pushes back the boundaries once again.

I suspect that Olaf actually accepts that homeopathy is crap, but just enjoys winding people up. It's recent posts have been slightly too detached from reality even for a h'pathy regular.
I dont know... I've seen more impressive trolls...

Towelie made a pretty good troll, but he was tolerable...

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by olaf


what are you talking about?

i am posting good information.

the ennis study is top of the line!!!

read it and weep. you people have no answer for it.

you are the same people who 100 years ago insisted that machines can't fly.

you are a bunch of negative, pessimistic, downers -- DEPRESSIVES.

you have brain lock.

There is goes again. The same Turing machine is giving out the same information as before.
Read it and weep read it and weep read it and weep read it and weep
What the h*ll are we weeping about?
And why isn't the Ennis study reproducable in lab settings?
You are the same person 100 years ago who insisted the Gods demanded a human sacrifice.
Xanta is a wishful thinker and a defensive flamer. She doesn't even pass the Turing test.

[Quasi]

Olaf-

"The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise. "

No room for fraud? Did you ever think that the "independent" panel might just be cheating? Is there a web link to the exact manufacturing steps for these solutions? Who did the preparations? Is this another thing where they use the same vial for all the dilutions so it is not diluting serially at all?
Olaf- here is the rub, the JREF one million is ready for their or your taking. All these academics have to do is show that the cells change with only the succinated homeopathic solutions, and not the unshaken homeopathic solution. Its that simple. Even you could follow their protocol, it would not be terribly difficult. Care to apply?

[Prester John]

Have you ever considered that its because of people like olaf that some MDs might prescribe homeopathy :D