Chronic Dehydration

[RamblingOnwards]

I've ventured over from general skeptism to query a particular tenant of popular medicine - that the average adult is permanantly dehydrated.

We need to drink 8 glasses of liquid (or 8 glasses of water PLUS an extra glass of water for each caffienated drink we drink according to others) each day, apparently.

Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/toxins/water.htm
says that the whole issue behind this is incredibly fuzzy (none whatsoever is probably all right to six glasses a day) and we should just drink when we're thristy.

Is there any real science behind any of this?

[roger]

This thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32816&highlight=water) covers that topic. Short answer, no science or evidence behind it.

[Benguin]

In my encounters with alt medics they love to finish up by saying
"Avoid alcohol and strenuous exercise this evening and make sure you drink plenty of water"

I think they think makes them sound professional.

Either that or they are hoping the alcies amongst will lay off the sauce for a night, rehydrate and wake up feeling unusually refreshed the next morning.

[jimlintott]

I keep hearing this and the big question for me is: How many litres in a glass?

My cupboard is full of glasses that vary wildly in size. Is a glass some official measurment I've never heard of?

I drink about two to three litres of water a day.

[RamblingOnwards]

Is a glass some official measurment I've never heard of?

A 'standard' glass is supposed to be 250ml. (that is, you're supposed to drink > 2 liters a day).

Thanks for the link to the thread, roger - I did do a search on 'dehydration' but I must have missed it.

(edit for < / > typo)

[jimlintott]

A 'standard' glass is supposed to be 250ml.

Cool. Oddly enough that's also a cup. I never knew that a cup = a glass.

All my glasses are non-standard.:(

[Exposer]

I was told by my doctor that 90% of headaches are caused by dehydration.

I checked it out on myself, and it does seem right. If I have a headache, I drink an enormous amount of water, and within 20-30 minutes the headache is gone.

[athon]

I often have kids mention the whole 'we have to drink X glasses of water a day'.

I ask them, 'are you thirsty?'

They say, 'no'.

'Well then you don't need to drink'.

The body is a wonderful thing. Once upon a time, we did not have doctors advising us how much water we needed, so we relied upon a crude method of determing how much we were to drink -- we got thirsty when we were dehydrated.

I'm still not satisfied that we have to force ourselves to drink a number of litres of water a day simply because it is a standard of a level of health.

Athon

[Benguin]

I seem to remember feeling thirsty for long periods as a child. The perception amongst my family seemed to be that drinking too much fluids wasn't good thing.

Not sure why, but I certainly feel better that I can drink as much as I want now. >> hic <<

[Suezoled]

If I go running, I take a nice long drink beforehand, because I'm dumb and refuse to stop until I've covered my 5 miles. I take a nice long drink afterward.
I guzzle water like a thirsty camel anyway, but if I run, of course I'll drink more.

[garys_2k]

Hey, is there a homeopathic mix of water?

[RamblingOnwards]

Sure - start with alcohol, mix with a large quantity of water, consume - does wonders for hangovers.

The opposite (start with water, dilute with alcohol), cures sobriety.

But only if you mix it properly.

[Rolfe]

Athon is right. We feel thirsty when we need to drink. Drinking those sorts of volumes without thirst is plain weird.

Animals can't be induced to drink if they're not thirsty. (You can take a horse to water....) If they are, they drink. If they drank the equivalent of the volumes these silly articles recommend for humans, I'd be running a battery of tests on them to find the (probably serious) illness that was making them pathologically thirsty.

Rolfe.

[Wrath of the Swarm]

And you'd be misinterpreting those tests and probably making the poor beasties very ill, too.

Don't listen to those doctors. Do what your body tells you.

[Benguin]

In other words, you agree with Rolfe's assertion ...

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Only to the degree to which she says she should be ignored.

[cbish]

Rolfe wrote:
Animals can't be induced to drink

Really?! My aunt's little terrier could. His favorite cocktail was vodka & A1 steak sauce. Of course when you only weigh about 15 lbs, a bowl of vodka hits hard.;)

Exposer wrote:
I was told by my doctor that 90% of headaches are caused by dehydration.

One of the major components of a hangover!

Our local newspaper had an article in the health & fitness section debunking the eight glasses a day claim. The article right below....drink eight glasses a day....:rolleyes:

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by cbish
Really?! My aunt's little terrier could. His favorite cocktail was vodka..... Well, the thread was about drinking water! :D

Rolfe.

[Benguin]

Don't you know anything????

Vodka is almost 60% water

[richardm]

Originally posted by Benguin
Don't you know anything????

Vodka is almost 60% water

You bloody cheapskate! :D

[Badger]

Originally posted by athon
I often have kids mention the whole 'we have to drink X glasses of water a day'.

I ask them, 'are you thirsty?'

They say, 'no'.

'Well then you don't need to drink'.

The body is a wonderful thing. Once upon a time, we did not have doctors advising us how much water we needed, so we relied upon a crude method of determing how much we were to drink -- we got thirsty when we were dehydrated.

I'm still not satisfied that we have to force ourselves to drink a number of litres of water a day simply because it is a standard of a level of health.

Athon

I understood that the feeling of thirst is often confused with the feeling of hunger, so people have a snack instead of drinking something.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Badger


I understood that the feeling of thirst is often confused with the feeling of hunger, so people have a snack instead of drinking something.

Actually, I've noticed that in myself lately. I hope it isn't an indication of anything significant.

[Tanja]

I drink very little water. It must be a miracle I am still alive.

I go through a typical day on one cup of coffee, two cups of tea and maybe one glass of water or juice. I am hardly ever thirsty - only if it is very hot or if I have just exercised. I often force myself to drink some water when I relise it is like 4pm and I haven't had anything to drink that day.

I am not sure I ever drank eight glasses of water in a single day.

Did I mention my skin is really dry? :(

[jj]

Originally posted by jimlintott
My cupboard is full of glasses that vary wildly in size. Is a glass some official measurment I've never heard of?


Yeah, my glasses range from 1.75 liquid oz to an imperial pint. Rather a difference there.

[Benguin]

A wine glass to a beer glass.

Yep, my cupboard too.

You want water, drink it out the tap.

[Exposer]

It seems to me, with water, the more the better. I don't think there are any negative side efects of drinking too much.

Aside from thirst, the best ways to know that you need water are headaches and yellow wizz. I worked one summer as a trail guide, and I learned that...

clear wizz = hydrated

yellow wizz = dehydrated

dark yellow or neon yellow wizz = drink water or get ready for a heat stroke

[Benguin]

Well you can kill yourself drinking too much, but I've only ever heard this risk in the context of people off their head on MDMA and speed drinking many litres in a couple of hours.

[Exposer]

Originally posted by Benguin
Well you can kill yourself drinking too much, but I've only ever heard this risk in the context of people off their head on MDMA and speed drinking many litres in a couple of hours.

:confused:

How did it happen? I have been known to drink many liters of water within a couple of hours. Did their stomachs rupture or something?

[Benguin]

I think it was kidney problems ...

Says something about it in the risks section here (http://talktofrank.com/azofdrugs/E/Ecstasy.aspx).

Although (what I didn't know before) is that it seems something in ecstacy is causing water problems beyond just intefering with your ability to know whether you are thirsty.

The drug can cause the body to release a hormone which prevents the production of urine. This means that if you drink a few pints of liquid too quickly, it interferes with your body's salt balance which can be as deadly as not drinking enough water.

The history was, people were kealing over with heat stroke and dehydration through dancing 4 or 5 hours straight like a whirling dervish and taking no fluids in ... a big publicity campaign was launched here (UK) to persuade youngsters to make sure they keep drinking water, and the problem flipped over.

[RamblingOnwards]

neon yellow wizz = you're taking too much vitamin B.

[Exposer]

Benguin, I was aware that there were hydration issues associated with X, but my question was about whether drinking too much water in and of itself could be dangerous?

I don't see a risk, but maybe someone else knows better.

[Benguin]

I reckon without being on a mind-altering substance you'd really struggle to force yourself to drink enough for it to be a problem. But that's just my opinion.

[RamblingOnwards]

Originally posted by Exposer
but my question was about whether drinking too much water in and of itself could be dangerous?

I don't see a risk, but maybe someone else knows better.

My understanding is that hyponatremia (over-hydration) only occurs when something interferes with the production of urine - notably drugs and heavy exercise.

[geni]

She went to sleep but died in bed two hours later. A post mortem examination showed the biochemical disturbance hyponatraemia and the cause of death was acute water intoxication


http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2001%2F11%2F13%2Fnwater13 .xml

[TruthSeeker]

And, then, of course, there is the alt med perspective regarding curative effects of water (http://www.watercure.com/)


, I have written the book, "Water Cures: Drugs Kill," to show the realities of what is going on. The book is 230 pages. The first 30 pages are revelations on how medical science has been hijacked by the drug industry with published proof of how prescription drugs do actually kill, followed by 187 pages of uplifting reports of how water cured incurable diseases, when prescription drugs had failed.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Exposer
It seems to me, with water, the more the better. I don't think there are any negative side efects of drinking too much.

There are two I know of:

1) Washing out the loop of Henle, which causes mineral loss, and
2) An acute reaction that causes tissues of your nervous system to swell up.

These aren't major dangers, but people have died from them.

[Eos of the Eons]

What would the woos suggest for diarrhea?

My doctor says to avoid water and fruit juice. I was doing both of those and was keeling over in pain.

Well, turns out I was conserving gas bubbles and the water and juice were just running right through, and coming out unchanged.

So, what did they give me at the hospital for the sever pain and diarrhea? A can of ginger ale. A few burps and other gas expulsions later, I felt great! Then throw in sports drink for good measure. Get rid of the gas, and restore electrolytes.

Turns out you need to keep some balance of electrolytes (the salts potassium and sodium). Drinking just water and fruit juice when I was dehydrated just made things worse.

I can see the same thing happening even if you aren't ill. Drink too much water and you lose too many electrolytes.

[roger]

Originally posted by RamblingOnwards
My understanding is that hyponatremia (over-hydration) only occurs when something interferes with the production of urine - notably drugs and heavy exercise. It's a real risk in marathons, and more importantly, ultramarathons, ironman, and the like. Heavy exercise removes electrolytes from the body through sweat, and you drink water to rehydrate, but you are not restoring your electrolyte balance. Do that enough, and you drop dead. Some races monitor the fluid consumptions of the participants to ensure they can not overconsume water.

Note that the issue is not production of urine, but just the fact that you are sweating out electrolytes.

[gethane]

Just pointing out that while I think most adults will do fine regulating their own fluid intake, pregnant women really DO need lots and lots of water. Even though this last baby was my 4th, I didn't know that if a pregnant woman is even a little dehydrated she can begin cramping badly and even go into premature labor.

And nursing women should also drink lots of fluid :)

[epepke]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Then throw in sports drink for good measure. Get rid of the gas, and restore electrolytes.

Turns out you need to keep some balance of electrolytes (the salts potassium and sodium). Drinking just water and fruit juice when I was dehydrated just made things worse.

Trouble is that, as I pointed out elsewhere, a serving of Gatorade contains a mere 1% of the RDA of potassium. That's 30 mg, which is damn near homeopathic in concentration. Drinking enough of it to do any serious restoration would probably wash out the loops of Henle, so you'd lose it all anyway.

If you need potassium, and for some weird reason you can't just eat a baked potato, the salt substitute they give for people who are on low sodium diets is just the ticket. It tastes pretty weird, but it's probably tolerable in a cup of salt-free bullion. Most people have far more sodium than they need, but if that's really a problem, ordinary table salt works fine.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by epepke


Trouble is that, as I pointed out elsewhere, a serving of Gatorade contains a mere 1% of the RDA of potassium. That's 30 mg, which is damn near homeopathic in concentration. Drinking enough of it to do any serious restoration would probably wash out the loops of Henle, so you'd lose it all anyway.

If you need potassium, and for some weird reason you can't just eat a baked potato, the salt substitute they give for people who are on low sodium diets is just the ticket. It tastes pretty weird, but it's probably tolerable in a cup of salt-free bullion. Most people have far more sodium than they need, but if that's really a problem, ordinary table salt works fine.

Thanks epeke,

Well, if I was that severely dyhydrated I would have been told to do more. I think the gas pain and diarrhea were the main concern. Do severely dehydrated people have diarrhea?

My daughter is hopefully getting over her diarrhea she had over the last 3 days. She seems rather prone to it. I don't know if it is allergies or what?

I imagine the salt concentration in pedialyte isn't too high either.

Just do not think that drinking gallons of water needlessly is a the best idea. Gatorade and Pedialyte are the first 'home cures' that can be tried for diarrhea, not juice or straight water.

Chronic dehydration though? I just don't see it. I will try drinking more water when a headache comes up though. I usually just put up with it or lie down (obviously minor, not a migraine).

[homer]

Headaches caused by dehydration ? I find that drinking causes dehydration , at least when I drink a bottle of scotch . And the morning after...... A headache !! So I need to drink another...
There's a name for this kind of behaviour: Alcoholism !
Seriously this is perfectly true . After a night out I find a drink of water cures a hangover . However it has been 3 years since I've had a hangover .

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by homer
Headaches caused by dehydration ? I find that drinking causes dehydration , at least when I drink a bottle of scotch . And the morning after...... A headache !! So I need to drink another...
There's a name for this kind of behaviour: Alcoholism !
Seriously this is perfectly true . After a night out I find a drink of water cures a hangover . However it has been 3 years since I've had a hangover . :P
I think it has been at least that long for me too.

Yep, alcohol causes dehydration. That causes a headache. Then you drink water. No more dehydration, no more headache, no more hangover, you can try it. Just like in that thread on those dumb hangover prevention pills.

I just don't get how having more alcohol gets rid of a hangover when it caused it in the first place? I never tried that cure. Can anybody explain it?

[TeaBag420]

Originally posted by Exposer
I was told by my doctor that 90% of headaches are caused by dehydration.

I checked it out on myself, and it does seem right. If I have a headache, I drink an enormous amount of water, and within 20-30 minutes the headache is gone.

I find that beer works just as well. Strangely, these headaches seem to come on in the morning.

[roger]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Do severely dehydrated people have diarrhea? Yes, but with cause and effect reversed. Severe diarrhea causes dehydration. Can, and does cause death if it is not gotten under control.

I have a personal story to that effect, but will spare all. You're welcome!

[TeaBag420]

Originally posted by Exposer
Benguin, I was aware that there were hydration issues associated with X, but my question was about whether drinking too much water in and of itself could be dangerous? I don't see a risk, but maybe someone else knows better.

My foggy recollection (I forgot to take my ecstasy that day) is that it causes some sort of electrolyte problem in the brain by diluting the blood. Which raises the question, is it possible to drink more water than the kidneys can handle?

There's a lot of pseudo-science about exstacy, put out by scientists; additionally, there's a lot of Xstacy that isn't actually MDMA. A lot of today's swinging youngsters never had the chance to take legal X. I would distrust anything in pill form, for starters.

[Suezoled]

I'm wondering if a person becomes dehyrated from throwing up often, should they be given fluid orally to prevent dry heaves? Should they be given fluid at all if they can't keep it down? I always thought you don't do that, but it's been a while...

[Badger]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
:P
I think it has been at least that long for me too.

Yep, alcohol causes dehydration. That causes a headache. Then you drink water. No more dehydration, no more headache, no more hangover, you can try it. Just like in that thread on those dumb hangover prevention pills.

I just don't get how having more alcohol gets rid of a hangover when it caused it in the first place? I never tried that cure. Can anybody explain it?

Actually, the headache of a hangover is caused by partially oxidized alcohols and sugars becoming aldehydes and ketones. If one minimizes the sugars one takes in when drinking (ie. straight booze, no (or water) mix; dry wines, NOT draft beer, and drinks lots of water to help oxidize and flush out these aldehydes and ketones, you'll be in good shape. And if you do get a hangover, it's best to get your blood moving through exercise, to help shuffle those nasty chemicals along.

(years of intense testing went into the above......my liver will never forgive me)

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Badger


(snipped). And if you do get a hangover, it's best to get your blood moving through exercise, to help shuffle those nasty chemicals along.

(years of intense testing went into the above......my liver will never forgive me)

Um, wouldn't exercise cause you to sweat and therefore lose more water? Or are you saying just a light walk will do?

[Badger]

Suezoled, I've found any exercise good. Something that gets one's heart rate up. If one consumes while exercising with a hangover, that will also help get rid of the aldehydes and ketones.

[Kumar]

Why people drink more or less water in normal health & in any disease & its effects on the body? Which body substances causes retention of fluid/water retention & dehydration? Is it related to avoid some toxic effect due to concentration of any bio/foreign chemical/substance? Is there any differance between fluid & water retention in body?

Awnser of all these questions is to be known to understand this topic.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons


Thanks epeke,

Well, if I was that severely dyhydrated I would have been told to do more.

Well, recently my roommate was told to drink Gatorade. She did it for more than a day. Eventually I made her eat a baked potato, and she perked right up.

I think the gas pain and diarrhea were the main concern. Do severely dehydrated people have diarrhea?

Often, yes.

My daughter is hopefully getting over her diarrhea she had over the last 3 days. She seems rather prone to it. I don't know if it is allergies or what?

Who knows? Some people are just prone to it. It runs in my family.

I imagine the salt concentration in pedialyte isn't too high either.

Pedialyte is actually pretty good. Of course, it's more expensive. But the best thing is to get a drip of lactated Ringer's solution.

Chronic dehydration though? I just don't see it. I will try drinking more water when a headache comes up though. I usually just put up with it or lie down (obviously minor, not a migraine).

Some people just have to be very careful about dehydration. I do. A couple of years ago I spent some time in the hospital (my first!). I had to argue with a doc to get him to give me enough IV fluids. I can tell when I'm properly hydrated, because the veins on the back of my hands are like garden hoses.

I finally convinced him by saying, "Look, there's a difference between hydrating an ordinary person and hydrating a large Bavarian." He laughed and said that they had a Bavarian in the ER recently, and then he ordered more fluids.

[Kumar]

Can you pls tell me that, what can be the differance (biochemically) between people who drink lot of water as well as passes lot of urine AND who do not drink much water & passes less urine? Can they become hypo or hyper in other electrolytes/biochemicals than Sodium?

[sickstan]

Originally posted by Exposer
I was told by my doctor that 90% of headaches are caused by dehydration.

I checked it out on myself, and it does seem right. If I have a headache, I drink an enormous amount of water, and within 20-30 minutes the headache is gone.

Yeah I stop feeling the headaches as soon as the hyponatremia seizures begin.

[sickstan]

Originally posted by Badger


Actually, the headache of a hangover is caused by partially oxidized alcohols and sugars becoming aldehydes and ketones. If one minimizes the sugars one takes in when drinking (ie. straight booze, no (or water) mix; dry wines, NOT draft beer, and drinks lots of water to help oxidize and flush out these aldehydes and ketones, you'll be in good shape. And if you do get a hangover, it's best to get your blood moving through exercise, to help shuffle those nasty chemicals along.

(years of intense testing went into the above......my liver will never forgive me)

You forgot the directly toxic effects of alcohol on the brain, the peripheral nervous system, and other parts of the body. You CAN get a nasty hangover from drinking bone-dry martinis and everclear. I can't seem to get funding for my experiment, though.

[Iamme]

I have heard that you should drink enough water so that your urine comes out a pale yellow. If it is bright yellow or even orange-tan (and it will probably smell as well)...that there is a good chance you are not drinking enough plain old water. You don't want to replace water by drinking sodas and juices. Just water. Water is good at flushing out the kidneys. Those other liquids are still putting things through your system that your kidneys have to filter out. *I* have gone spells with drinking JUST coffee and beer, and my urine has been very yellow and smelly and even probably led to the kidney stone that I got.

I know a middle age guy who had health issues and his doctor got him on a water drinking regimine and the guy has told me that he feels healthier, more refreshed, more 'cleaned out'. Although I suppose some of this could be psychosematic.

[stingy get]

I'm also one of those people who needs to drink a lot. If I don't drink enough water my first symptom is gettng snappy and irritable, (wife -'have you had anything to drink', me - 'no, what's it to you?'). If I ignore it then I start to get to a headache.

One glass of water and I'm Mr Nice again.

[stingy get]

I forgot to add that my wife is completely opposite, she can go all day on a can of coke with, apparently, no ill effects.

[Kumar]

Can you reply my questions/some questions?

Why people drink more or less water in normal health & in any disease & its effects on the body? Which body substances causes retention of fluid/water & dehydration? If water/fluid retention is related to avoid some toxic effect due to concentration of any bio/foreign chemical/substance OR to provide some coshioning effect to nerves, vessels etc? Is there any differance between fluid retention & water retention in body?