President Bush does his best Captain Louis Renault impersonation

[shemp]

Bush Blasts Abuse Of Iraqi POWs (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/home/main100.shtml)

President Bush on Friday expressed disgust at photographs depicting naked and abused Iraqi prisoners in U.S. custody.

"Their treatment does not reflect the nature of the American people. That's not the way we do things in America. I didn't like it one bit," Mr. Bush said.

"I share a deep disgust that those prisoners were treated the way they were treated," Mr. Bush said.

"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

"Your winnings, sir."

[Elio]

Question is :

What is he going to do about it ?

Play it Colin ?

Elio.

[Nasarius]

I happened to catch it live, though I was kinda half-asleep. I was particularly unamused when Bush started joking about the translation or something at the end...

[Charlie Monoxide]

Good one Shemp. It took me a few seconds to realize, who the heck is Captain Louis Renault....

Charlie (but, as time goes by, I figured it out) Monoxide

[zakur]

I disagree with your assessment, Shemp. I have no doubt that Bush is as clueless about this as he is about just about everything else. He's stupid, not mean.

[c0rbin]

Electrocuting people is NOT how we do it in Texas. We inject them.

[Elio]

Question is :

What is he going to do about it ?

Play it Colin ?
And my joke went totally unnoticed...

Try to show some film culture... :(

Elio.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Elio

And my joke went totally unnoticed...

Try to show some film culture... :(

Elio.


Not all of us are porn addicts. :p ;)

[Charlie Monoxide]

Originally posted by Elio

And my joke went totally unnoticed...

Try to show some film culture... :(

Elio.

I thought my signoff was waggish (and unappreciated, thank you very much) as well ....

Charlie (but, as time goes by, I figured it out) Monoxide

[Elio]

Tony,
Not all of us are porn addicts

Hey ! I only saw the edited version of 'Casablanca' ! :D

Elio.

[coalesce]

I got nervous for a moment. I thought the thread title was "President Bush does his best Captain Louis Albano impersonation."

My mistake. Sorry.

Michael

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by shemp
Bush Blasts Abuse Of Iraqi POWs (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/home/main100.shtml)


"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

"Your winnings, sir."

I'm not a fan of Bush. I didn't vote for him, will not vote for him and I consider him a huge embarrassment to our nation.

However, this is uncalled for. There are plenty of grounds to criticize the man based upon what he has done, what he has not done, and what he has done badly. This event, Bush expressing disgust at the apparent mistreatment of these prisoners is correct by any reasonable standard. While this story is still unfolding, until we see the results of any investigation and prosecution, such comparisons are absurd.

[Frank Newgent]

"I share a deep disgust that those prisoners were treated the way they were treated. Round up the usual suspects."

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Mycroft
This event, Bush expressing disgust at the apparent mistreatment of these prisoners is correct by any reasonable standard. While this story is still unfolding, until we see the results of any investigation and prosecution, such comparisons are absurd.

There ya go again Mycroft, using logic...we're going to have to change your name to Spock, ya keep this up. :roll:

That said, you're probably right. GB the 2nd tends to see things in black and white, and he probably is truly shocked that US soldiers (our heroes) could do Evil Things.

Whereas most people know there are shades of grey out there, and young soldiers, with complete control over the prisioners, are apt to act badly at times (the Stanford Experiment has been cited elsewhere). So while I am disappointed and expect retribution upon the guilty, I am not as shocked as GB2nd undoubtedly was.

Again, just my opinion.

[Scott]

Originally posted by Hutch
That said, you're probably right. GB the 2nd tends to see things in black and white, and he probably is truly shocked that US soldiers (our heroes) could do Evil Things.

Whereas most people know there are shades of grey out there, and young soldiers, with complete control over the prisioners, are apt to act badly at times (the Stanford Experiment has been cited elsewhere). So while I am disappointed and expect retribution upon the guilty, I am not as shocked as GB2nd undoubtedly was.

Again, just my opinion. I'm curious, Hutch, where is the shade of grey on this issue? The way I see it is these knotheads are:

A. stupid for mistreating the prisoners; and,
B. stupider for doing it in a group setting; and,
C. even stupider for having pics taken.

No grey there, just black.

[Regnad Kcin]

Interesting how in the story there are characters named Renault and Ferrari. Sounds intentional (and cool) until you realize that Ferrari the company was founded in 1947, quite a few years before the events at Rick's Cafe Americain transpired. (Of course, Renault had already been in business for decades.)

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Originally posted by Mycroft
However, this is uncalled for. There are plenty of grounds to criticize the man based upon what he has done, what he has not done, and what he has done badly. This event, Bush expressing disgust at the apparent mistreatment of these prisoners is correct by any reasonable standard. While this story is still unfolding, until we see the results of any investigation and prosecution, such comparisons are absurd. Sure. And our prison camp in Cuba was located there to take best advantage of the crisp ocean breeze.

Even I don't think Bush is so stupid he couldn't put two and two together. The world has long suspected what's been going on in these camps - although it's worse than even I feared.

That response is *absolutely* called for.

[Silicon]

Originally posted by Scott
I'm curious, Hutch, where is the shade of grey on this issue? The way I see it is these knotheads are:

A. stupid for mistreating the prisoners; and,
B. stupider for doing it in a group setting; and,
C. even stupider for having pics taken.



D. Monumentally stupid for doing this in an era of global media and 24/7 Al Que-- (oops) Jazeera.

[Wrath of the Swarm]

If I were really paranoid, I might think this is some attempt to ensure America is threatened by terrorism for decades to come, solidifying the power elites who know how to exploit the fears of the populace for political gain.

Since I'm only moderately paranoid, I'll just marvel at the stupidity of a government that ignores fifty years' worth of psychological research and countless cases in reality to give such unsupervised power to anyone, soldiers or otherwise.

God, I hate this civilization.

[shemp]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin


Interesting how in the story there are characters named Renault and Ferrari. Sounds intentional (and cool) until you realize that Ferrari the company was founded in 1947, quite a few years before the events at Rick's Cafe Americain transpired. (Of course, Renault had already been in business for decades.)



??? When do you think WWII took place?

[shemp]

Originally posted by Mycroft




I'm not a fan of Bush. I didn't vote for him, will not vote for him and I consider him a huge embarrassment to our nation.

However, this is uncalled for. There are plenty of grounds to criticize the man based upon what he has done, what he has not done, and what he has done badly. This event, Bush expressing disgust at the apparent mistreatment of these prisoners is correct by any reasonable standard. While this story is still unfolding, until we see the results of any investigation and prosecution, such comparisons are absurd.

How absurd do you think my post was? As absurd as going into Iraq with absolutely no idea of what we were going to do after the ouster of Saddam? As absurd as declaring that the war is over, then leaving our soldiers to be sitting ducks? As absurd as a nation of low-wage employees who see no connection between Bush's fiscal machinations and the loss of millions of higher-paying jobs? Please let me know exactly how absurd my post was so I can adjust my scorecard.

[subgenius]

As absurd as thinking mercenaries might more readily do things than those subject to the Geneva Convention and motivated by love of their country.

[Scott]

Originally posted by Silicon
D. Monumentally stupid for doing this in an era of global media and 24/7 Al Que-- (oops) Jazeera. Yep. you know it kind of reminds me of a story that broke here a few days ago about a child porn ring that was busted.

A. stupid people were paying looking at child porn on the 'net
B. more stupid - they were paying for it with their credit card

"Here's yer sign"

And there should be kudos for someone in the Iraq chain of events. Someone had to give up these pics so that this event would be brought to light.

I don't know if it was the photographer or someone he/she showed/gave the pics to, but at least they stood up for what's right. in the event it was the photographer, at least he/she eventually stood up.

[subgenius]

Ah, McLuhan's "Global Village".
As someone much funnier, and smarter, than I pointed out recently, the concept is complete.
We have a global village idiot.

[crackmonkey]

As repulsive as these acts were, I can't see how the behavior of a handful of abusive troops can be seen as evidence of anything other than their own lack of integrity. Perhaps their commanding officers should be punished for lack of oversight or training, but I have seen nothing to indicate that this is anything other than an aberration.
If anyone has any evidence showing that this is a chronic problem, I'd love to see it...

[demon]

Don`t worry your little cotten socks Crackmonkey, the US aren`t the only ones...the Brits (softly, softly approach you know), have been "pissing" around too.
So lets see here...we invade another country, ignore the Geneva Convention and torture prisoners. Does that remind you of anyone?
Where the comparison breaks down of course is that we accused him of having WMD which he didn`t...but we do :p

[subgenius]

"Acting so much like the man they hate"--"Trouble in Paradise" Kid Creole and the Coconuts

[subgenius]

" I have seen nothing" c.m.
Paging Sgt. Schultz

[crackmonkey]

I've absolutely seen photos that look to me like criminal conduct of several people. These people should be tried and punished as the law deems fit.
I have yet to see any evidence suggesting that this is typical of US troops. If there is any extant, please provide it. If you have none, and mock my hesitation to accept your faith-based assertions, I'll gladly accept your scorn.
Just surrender your 'Skeptic' badge at the door, and don your 'credulous zealot' hat...

[fishbob]

I have yet to see any evidence suggesting that this is typical of US troops. If there is any extant, please provide it. Doesn't matter if this is typical or not. The locals will believe it or spin it for others to believe. Our troops will take more casualties because of it, evidence or not.

What you or I believe has no bearing.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by Mycroft

I'm not a fan of Bush. I didn't vote for him, will not vote for him and I consider him a huge embarrassment to our nation.

However, this is uncalled for. There are plenty of grounds to criticize the man based upon what he has done, what he has not done, and what he has done badly. This event, Bush expressing disgust at the apparent mistreatment of these prisoners is correct by any reasonable standard. While this story is still unfolding, until we see the results of any investigation and prosecution, such comparisons are absurd.
You are 100% correct. (Did I say that? ;) )

Other than humor, where almost anything goes imo, and it seems to me some of these posts fall in that category... I hate it when liberals demonize Bush, because it's lame as a matter of principal and because it hurts my causes due to implausability.

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Scott
I'm curious, Hutch, where is the shade of grey on this issue? The way I see it is these knotheads are:

A. stupid for mistreating the prisoners; and,
B. stupider for doing it in a group setting; and,
C. even stupider for having pics taken.

No grey there, just black.

What I was trying to get across (albeit poorly, it appears) is that while GB2 sees things in absolutes (my opinion only), that is, the US does only things for good, Iraqis who oppose us do only evil, most folks know that out of 110,000 troops, at least some of them will cross the line, while not everybody who opposes us is pure evil (lest we have to lock up 30% of Iraquis).

That's all I meant.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
I've absolutely seen photos that look to me like criminal conduct of several people. These people should be tried and punished as the law deems fit.
I have yet to see any evidence suggesting that this is typical of US troops. If there is any extant, please provide it. If you have none, and mock my hesitation to accept your faith-based assertions, I'll gladly accept your scorn.
Just surrender your 'Skeptic' badge at the door, and don your 'credulous zealot' hat...
I don't think anyone here at least has said this is typical or widespread.
As fishbob said that's not going to matter to the Iraqis. Or the world.

[crackmonkey]

True. Unfortunate, but true.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by shemp
Bush Blasts Abuse Of Iraqi POWs (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/home/main100.shtml)





What's the problem? It doen't specifically say in the geneva convention that sand ni88er$ are human beings, nor does it state that sand ni88er$ are subject to be treated within the guidelines of the GC.

I notice that Bush says

" not the way we do things in America",

I for one believe him, The US reserves these sort of actions to to occur in convenient places like Guantanomo, or Iraq prisons where private unregulated contractors carry out interogations, or send supected terrorists to Syria to be tortured during interogation.


It appears the US military did its own investigation, and it is prosecuting the men that acted out these these abuses. Did the US appointed Warden of that prison get charged too? Fortunately it appears the US military is making efforts to investigate and prosecute, and this behaviour does not appear to be institutionalised. Or am I being naive?

BTW speaking of human rights abuses:
how are those 2 American citizens doing in the US who are being held indefinately (2 years plus now) without access to counsel?

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by shemp
??? When do you think WWII took place? Yikes! Of course I meant: Sounds intentional (and cool) until you realize that Ferrari the company was founded in 1947, quite a few years after the events at Rick's Cafe Americain transpired.

Oops, and all that.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Mycroft
I'm not a fan of Bush. I didn't vote for him, will not vote for him and I consider him a huge embarrassment to our nation.

However, this is uncalled for. There are plenty of grounds to criticize the man based upon what he has done, what he has not done, and what he has done badly. This event, Bush expressing disgust at the apparent mistreatment of these prisoners is correct by any reasonable standard. While this story is still unfolding, until we see the results of any investigation and prosecution, such comparisons are absurd. I did vote for Bush and will again. However I understand your position and I respect you Mycroft for having the honesty to make your post.

If Bush had not said anything he would be critisized for his lack of compassion or failure to be a leader and speak out against such abuses.

If anyone has any evidence that Bush encouraged or approved of such treatment I would invite them to share it.

RandFan

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Wrath of the Swarm
That response is *absolutely* called for. We await your evidence.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by shemp
How absurd do you think my post was? As absurd as going into Iraq with absolutely no idea of what we were going to do after the ouster of Saddam? As absurd as declaring that the war is over, then leaving our soldiers to be sitting ducks? As absurd as a nation of low-wage employees who see no connection between Bush's fiscal machinations and the loss of millions of higher-paying jobs? Please let me know exactly how absurd my post was so I can adjust my scorecard. Begging the question. This is popular these days. In any event, what Bush did or didn't do does not excuse unfounded accusations against Bush. Well, it is no excuse for the intellectualy honest. I appologize shemp, carry on.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by varwoche

You are 100% correct. (Did I say that? ;) )

Other than humor, where almost anything goes imo, and it seems to me some of these posts fall in that category... I hate it when liberals demonize Bush, because it's lame as a matter of principal and because it hurts my causes due to implausability. :D

[subgenius]

Originally posted by RandFan
I did vote for Bush and will again. However I understand your position and I respect you Mycroft for having the honesty to make your post.

If Bush had not said anything he would be critisized for his lack of compassion or failure to be a leader and speak out against such abuses.

If anyone has any evidence that Bush encouraged or approved of such treatment I would invite them to share it.

RandFan
Just a question from an old fart.
Where does the buck stop these days?
Whose heads will roll?
They've already made Karpinski the scrapegoat (sic).

[subgenius]

Randfan: "I did vote for Bush and will again."

You of course mean, barring any change in circumstance or unforeseen event.
Right?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by subgenius

Just a question from an old fart.
Where does the buck stop these days?
Whose heads will roll?
They've already made Karpinski the scrapegoat (sic). Geneva Convention and U.S. U.K. abuse (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39637) RandFan

There is no excuse that any U.S. soldier does not know the Geneva Convention and appropriate rules for treating POW's and civilians.

If they don't know it is not an excuse. Any and all soldiers who violate the Geneva Convention should be court martialed.

Discipline should follow-up the chain of Command.

The President should bear personal responsibility as supreme commander to ensure that appropriate training is a priority for all American combatants. Is that clear enough?

[RandFan]

Randfan "I did vote for Bush and will again."

subgenius
You of course mean, barring any change in circumstance or unforeseen event. Right? Correct, recent books haven't changed my mind yet. But don't loose hope. I'm sure there is something out on the horizon.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by RandFan
Correct, recent books haven't changed my mind yet. But don't loose hope. I'm sure there is something out on the horizon.
Well I didn't really mean books from people inside the administration that have concerns, or anything like that, I did mean failures of leadership or grossly negligent mistakes that he yet may make that you may take into account. Or findings, yet to come, from one of the several commissions looking into various "issues".

One hardly knows where to post things such as this anymore, if you know where it should be filed feel free to re-direct me:

"The new ``Fallujah Brigade,'' put together by Iraqi generals from Saddam Hussein's ousted regime, likely will include some former army soldiers who fought American forces over the past month, Marine Lt. Gen. James Conway said.

http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm19633_20040501.htm

[subgenius]

Originally posted by RandFan
Geneva Convention and U.S. U.K. abuse (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39637) Is that clear enough?
Seems clear.
What's unclear is why you are still certain (barring unforeseen circumstances) that despite this presumed responsibility it wasn't enough for you to at least put yourself in the undecided category.

(Boy that was the most convoluted grammar I've ever put together)

[epepke]

Originally posted by subgenius

Just a question from an old fart.
Where does the buck stop these days?

I don't think the buck actually stops; it just gets devalued.