Am I Jewish?

[Verde]

I had a strange conversation with my brother. We are not close. He lives in England, and we usually speak at most once a year. He claims to have come across some interesting information about our maternal grandmother.

We never knew her. She died of TB in Austria, I think it was 1947, so about six years before I was born. My brother came along five years later. Our mother died back in 2000 so there is no way of checking.

He had received some information that our grandmother was descended from a prominent European Jewish family.
I asked for the info, but he is barely computer literate. His wife and wonderful daughters will probably send me the details.

My recollection is that our mother was Catholic, but that could have been just an act.

After that ramble, my question is does Jewishness (even if the story was true) come down the maternal line?

I actually don't care, as I have no stake in the matter. I'm just curious.

V.

[Mudcat]

I does come down the maternal line, at least according to the Jews. But really, it's all hogwash. The only reason they came up with that Grade A line of bull hockey reasoning is to pressure women into making sure their children get's programed early.

[davefoc]

I wonder with your history if you could apply to be a citizen of Israel and get subsidized for moving to Israel? My guess is yes.

At one point, Israel, opened up the definition of Jewish significantly to allow more non-Arabs to become citizens, I believe.

I also wonder if you could commit a crime and apply for sanctuary or at least to serve out your sentence in Israel with your history. My guess is no.

I don't think you would be considered a Jew by any Jewish religious groups but I wonder if a Jewish ancestor as distant as your grandmother would help get you into a Jewish initiation program. My guess is no, but maybe it would be helpful depending on the sect you were trying to become a part of.

Do you suppose a Jewish grandmother could have prevented you from joining a country club that didn't allow Jews in the US? Does a Jewish grandmother bar anybody from entering the Ku Klux Klan?

[epepke]

Lots and lots of Jewish groups would consider you Jewish.

[rjh01]

Suggest you get it all documented. You never know when or if it would be useful.

[davefoc]

Lots and lots of Jewish groups would consider you Jewish.

OK, it sounds like a fair amount of my guessing was wrong. The situation as I understand it:
Adult male with a possible Jewish grandmother and no religious training or beliefs.

Assuming that Verde really did have a Jewish grandmother which groups would consider him Jewish and what kinds of things could he do that he couldn't do before he was considered a Jew?

Could Verde do anything to not be considered a Jew by the groups you mentioned? How far back does this go? Would some groups consider him Jewish if he was a non-believer and his only connection to Jewishness was a great grandmother?

[yairhol]

If you can prove your grandmother (or mother) was Jewish then yes, you are considered Jewish as well and Israel would except you as a natural citizen along with all the benefits that Jewish citizens get when they make an Aliyah (becoming a citizen of Israel).
Congratulations, you have just made yourself a billion enemies. Welcome a board...

[epepke]

OK, it sounds like a fair amount of my guessing was wrong. The situation as I understand it:
Adult male with a possible Jewish grandmother and no religious training or beliefs.

Assuming that Verde really did have a Jewish grandmother which groups would consider him Jewish

Almost every Jewish group, excluding only the most Hassidic Orthodox Jews. Including the State of Israel, which would even in most cases consider a Jewish grandfather and indicator.

and what kinds of things could he do that he couldn't do before he was considered a Jew?

Pretty much everything. To participate in some of the rituals, it helps to know what to say. Still, just knowing the shema is good enough most of the time.

Could Verde do anything to not be considered a Jew by the groups you mentioned? How far back does this go? Would some groups consider him Jewish if he was a non-believer and his only connection to Jewishness was a great grandmother?

It's not easy. Being an atheist doesn't do it. Extremely few rabbis are going to say that you aren't a Jew because of being an atheist. About the worst you can expect is that they will give you wine and argue with you for hours.

It's actually kind of fun. Jews have a long, long tradition of arguing about God, even about the very existence of God. They will, of course, say a lot of stupid things, but they will seldom disrespect you for being an atheist per se.

I wrote a blog about arguing with Jews, but I am given to understand that linking to such things is frowned upon here.

To some Jews, converting to Christianity would, but that's mostly because of the traditional animosity.

[angrysoba]

Suggest you get it all documented. You never know when or if it would be useful.

Well, maybe, but then again it was also dangerous to have those things documented at the time of the inquisitions and the passing of the Nuremberg Laws.

[Leumas]

Suggest you get it all documented. You never know when or if it would be useful.



:i:

[Loss Leader]

The question of whether you are Jewish depends on who is doing the asking.

Judaism does come down the maternal line, according to the strictest interpretations. Most non-orthodox Jewish synagogues would probably be glad to consider anyone with any Jewish blood to be Jewish. Now, the question is whether you would still have to "convert' to Judaism by their standards. The chances are that you would be required to study and to have some sort of ceremonial initiation in all but the most Reform temples.

Would you be considered Jewish by people who don't like Jews? Yes.

How about for political purposes by the State of Israel? I don't know. I doubt it.

What rights do get by being Jewish? None that are worth a damn. You could be buried in a Jewish cemetery. That's about it.

Obviously, far more interesting than your current religion, is the ability to learn about the history of your family. It's amazing to contemplate the the choice made by some Jews to pass as Christian, to give children away to Christian families, and to give up a religion, culture and family in order to stay alive (or keep a child alive)

[Verde]

to pressure women into making sure their children get's programed early.

My mother tried, and failed, to push me into Catholicism, so I guess that bit didn't work.

V.

[Verde]

I wonder with your history if you could apply to be a citizen of Israel and get subsidized for moving to Israel? My guess is yes.



Thanks, but that is one part of the world that I have never visited, nor have any desire to do so.
Maybe once it gets a bit more stability, but I have a sneaking suspicion that may well be past my time.

V.

[Verde]

Suggest you get it all documented. You never know when or if it would be useful.

Well, that would be a problem.
I never even knew her name. I have one photograph that probably was taken in the late 30s.
Her husband, my grandfather, had the same name as a notorious SS officer, so web searches produce an awful lot of crud.

I know my mother's name, but searching with that reveals nothing of relevance. She must have had a birth certificate, which may have given a clue, to get UK citizenship, but that is long lost. As a little one I remember seeing her passport, but a lot was thrown away when she died.

My initial suspicion was that this a scam; as in: give me a thousand pounds and I will tell you about your rich ancestors. From my brother's comments, though, it appears unlikely. It was from a friend that came across some information. I am waiting for my niece to forward something.

V.

[Verde]

If you can prove your grandmother (or mother) was Jewish

If her mother was actually Jewish, would my mother have automatically been one?
As I have said upstream, and in other posts, she presented herself as a Catholic.

V.

[slingblade]

It all boils down to one very serious question:

Can you give up bacon?

[Verde]

Congratulations, you have just made yourself a billion enemies. Welcome a board...

You just can't have too many enemies....

V.

Or was it enemas? At my age, it's confusing.

[Leumas]

It all boils down to one very serious question:

Can you give up bacon?


A priest and Rabbi met on a train.

They eyed each other out for a while then the priest leaned forward and said:

P: "I always wanted to know...you reeeeaaaalllly have never tried bacon"

R: "No...of course not."

P: "Come on...we are alone here...your secret is safe with me"

R: "Oh...alright I did...it tasted like chicken.....now it is your turn...you reaaaalllyy never had sex"

P: "No...of course not"

R: "Oh....really???....come on... I told you my secret"

P: "Alright...alright.... I did……… it was a LOT better than chicken I tell you."

[Verde]

What rights do get by being Jewish? None that are worth a damn. You could be buried in a Jewish cemetery. That's about it.



Wow! I didn't know that. Perhaps I will change the current instructions to my children that I am to chopped into small pieces and fed to my dogs.

V.

[Verde]

It all boils down to one very serious question:

Can you give up bacon?

Yes.

I have not eaten any bacon today.

That is because my children came over yesterday and ate it all.

V.

[slingblade]

a priest and rabbi met on a train....

:D:D:D

[Complexity]

It all boils down to one very serious question:

Can you give up bacon?


That would only matter if one wanted to be a conforming jew.

Who would want to do that.

Besides, he could be a non-religious jew, in which case he can continue to do what he wants but still be hated by billions.

That's my favorite.

[hgc]

How about for political purposes by the State of Israel? I don't know. I doubt it.

For automatic right of citizenship, he qualifies, with documentation.

[slingblade]

That would only matter if one wanted to be a conforming jew.

Who would want to do that.

Besides, he could be a non-religious jew, in which case he can continue to do what he wants but still be hated by billions.

That's my favorite.

Well, there ya go. Maximize your opportunities, I say. ;)

[Darth Rotor]

Thanks, but that is one part of the world that I have never visited, nor have any desire to do so.
Maybe once it gets a bit more stability, but I have a sneaking suspicion that may well be past my time.

V.
Yep. I visited there in the mid 80's, and I'd say it's worth a trip. Then again, the risks may be a bit higher now.

Full disclosure: the first half of your second sentence had me laughing hard enough that I nearly didn't finish the second part.

"Stability in the {that part of the world}!"

What a concept!