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Julia
23rd January 2003, 10:20 AM
First of all, I apologize to Joshua for hijacking his thread when I asked Franko to expand on the word he had used - "fate".
Fate is a concept that had always interested me, but as with many things, the jury is still out on what I believe.
A friend of mine always uses the expression, "If you are meant to be stabbed, then you won't drown." Huh?
I have been honest about not knowing myself well enough to be sure what I really believe. I often come here to read others views and see what fits.
Back to fate. Can anyone help sort this out for me? I don't know what I believe, and am simply trying to educate myself.
Thanks

Franko
23rd January 2003, 11:39 AM
Julia,

Unless you have some evidence that indicates you have "free will" then all of your actions are governed by Fate.

Atoms obey The Laws of Physics.
You are made of Atoms.
You obey The Laws of Physics.

Can you even define the term "free will"? Most people can't ... at least they can't define it in a logically consistent fashion.

All of the evidence indicates that You and I have no more "free will" then the Moon does.

Skeptical Greg
23rd January 2003, 11:42 AM
As in many cases, any opinion on this, would be irrelevant in the absence of an agreement on a definition
of 'Fate'..

It would seem the classic definition would include an idea of ' predetermined ', or 'predestined.. i.e. It was
'fated' to happen , or ' I guess it was just fate.

Any type of confidence in the concept of fate as an actuality, would seem to preclude the existence of free will, or at least some degree of it..(free will )


Dismissing an occurrence as a result of fate, also seems to exhibit a degree of intellectual laziness,
a lack of ability to see cause and effect, or a degree of wishful thinking tied to a need to avoid
responsibility for ones actions.


I'm sure there are those who will disagree with some of my thoughts, and there is certainly much more
that can be said to add to this.

Franko
23rd January 2003, 12:50 PM
Dismissing an occurrence as a result of fate, also seems to exhibit a degree of intellectual laziness

Only to an immoral A-Theist who wanted to pretend their were no consequences for his actions.

a lack of ability to see cause and effect, or a degree of wishful thinking tied to a need to avoid responsibility for ones actions.

Actually this A-Theist has it all upside down. Diogene’s is very brainwashed.

A person who believes in "free will" believes in Indeterminism (the world is random and magical). A "free willy" believer doesn't believe in consequences because in his mind the present is NOT based on the past, nor will the future be based on the present. "free will" is a rejection of determinism and objectivity and an embracing of a magical, random, supernatural, subjective universe.

Samus
23rd January 2003, 01:06 PM
Franko, you're almost too obnoxious to engage...almost

He said: "Dismissing an occurrence as a result of fate, also seems to exhibit ... a degree of wishful thinking tied to a need to avoid responsibility for ones actions."

And you said: "Only to an immoral A-Theist who wanted to pretend their were no consequences for his actions"

Uh, you just said what he said, though you said it in a more insulting manner.

I'm reminded of Forrest Gump, when he's talking to Jenny's grave (a very sad scene, by the way). He's not sure if everything is fate, or if we make our own destiny, but he think's "maybe it's a little bit of both."

Looks like Forrest Gump has you beat on the IQ charts there, bubba.

Franko wrote:
A person who believes in "free will" believes in Indeterminism (the world is random and magical). A "free willy" believer doesn't believe in consequences because in his mind the present is NOT based on the past, nor will the future be based on the present. "free will" is a rejection of determinism and objectivity and an embracing of a magical, random, supernatural, subjective universe.
I guess I lack the understanding of free will that you seem to possess. I don't see this as an "all or none" thing. Like, if I doubt that everything is due to fate, that means I believe in a world of magic and unicorns. Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

Fate is the lack of a system of consequences. If my fate is to die by gunshot, then I'm free to swim in the ocean even though I'm a bad swimmer, because no matter what I do, the end result will be death by gunshot.

Blaming fate for poor judgment is weak.

Franko
23rd January 2003, 01:13 PM
Fate is the lack of a system of consequences.

Only A-Theists who are utterly clueless regarding Determinism ever make absurd statements like this (2 + 2 = 3). You should go read up on the subject before you come here and expose yourself as another fanatical A-Theist moron.

If my fate is to die by gunshot, then I'm free to swim in the ocean even though I'm a bad swimmer, because no matter what I do, the end result will be death by gunshot.

Blaming fate for poor judgment is weak.

Your comprehension of reality (and Time) is what is really weak …


These aren't the Droids you're looking for .... Move along ...

Samus
23rd January 2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Franko
Only A-Theists who are utterly clueless regarding Determinism ever make absurd statements like this (2 + 2 = 3). You should go read up on the subject before you come here and expose yourself as another fanatical A-Theist moron.
Only un-educated trolls make outlandish statements like this and provide nothing in the way of justification.

Look, you can sit here and fling poo at me until you're blue in the face, but I have yet to see anything besides insults and cheap shots that justifys whatever position you take on this issue.

Since you seem to be the subject matter expert on all things Determinism, how about you suggest some good reading material, instead of behaving like a 7-year-old? Oh, wait, that would take effort on your part.

Skeptical Greg
23rd January 2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by dwb
Franko, you're almost too obnoxious to engage...almost

..snip

Not yet anyway..

I have Franko on ignore, so I only see it's posts when someone chooses to quote it. Interestingly ( or not ) enough,
what I see hasn't changed in the last few hundred posts, and serves to justify (in my mind) my decision.

I believe I approached 200 posts before I made the decision (to ignore Franko ), so I always find it interesting
to observe the efforts of newcomers to engage this entity, known as ' Franko '..

Good luck.. and welcome to The JREF forums..

Samus
23rd January 2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Diogenes
I believe I approached 200 posts before I made the decision (to ignore Franko ), so I always find it interesting to observe the efforts of newcomers to engage this entity, known as ' Franko '..

Good luck.. and welcome to The JREF forums..
Heh, I knew debate was futile before I even registered for the forums. :)

In the real world, when someone makes a point, the natural reply from an opposing party would be a counterpoint, or rebuttal.

In Franko's world, when someone makes a point, the natural reply is to tell them their feet stink, their breath smells, and they are dumber than a box of rocks.

While my feet might just stink, it doesn't do anything to advance the conversation. As I have done with other people who are incapable of civilized debate, I might adopt the policy of pretending he doesn't exist. Time will tell, for now I'm having fun letting him try to categorize me to make himself feel better.

Checkmite
23rd January 2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by dwb

Fate is the lack of a system of consequences. If my fate is to die by gunshot, then I'm free to swim in the ocean even though I'm a bad swimmer, because no matter what I do, the end result will be death by gunshot.


I wrote a simple computer program that visually demonstrates this point.

Franko said it was flawed, then admitted that he hadn't even read the program. I don't know if he has read it since, but according to him, the program "doesn't prove anything".

CSSMariner
23rd January 2003, 01:45 PM
G'day Diogenes;

I hope you are still in search of a honest man, or has your lamp been extinguished? Nope, I think not, if you can choose to ignore theists the likes of Mr. 5K+ posts, then you are pressing on in your search and your lamp burns as bright as ever. It is impossible for a theist to be honest as he or she is lying to himself or herself in order to create the god they seek to make them above all the other life forms on the planet.

If "A-theists" are immoral, according to 5K+ himself, or is it herself, where does that place the altar boy buggering priests? They supposedly have a direct hot line to the great yahoo in the sky, so why did not the great yahoo tell them to bugger off and not ruin the lives of those guys? Perhaps he, she, or it is a closet pedophile or at least a voyeur.

It is a form of supreme idiocy and a waste of time arguing with any of them.

Skeptical Greg
23rd January 2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by dwb
While my feet might just stink, it doesn't do anything to advance the conversation. As I have done with other people who are incapable of civilized debate, I might adopt the policy of pretending he doesn't exist. Time will tell, for now I'm having fun letting him try to categorize me to make himself feel better.

When it comes to internet discourse, pointing out someone's stinky feet, might be the highest of compliments..:D


Ain't it fun?

Skeptical Greg
23rd January 2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by CSSMariner
G'day Diogenes;

I hope you are still in search of a honest man, or has your lamp been extinguished? Nope, I think not, if you can choose to ignore theists the likes of Mr. 5K+ posts, then you are pressing on in your search and your lamp burns as bright as ever. It is impossible for a theist to be honest as he or she is lying to himself or herself in order to create the god they seek to make them above all the other life forms on the planet.

If "A-theists" are immoral, according to 5K+ himself, or is it herself, where does that place the altar boy buggering priests? They supposedly have a direct hot line to the great yahoo in the sky, so why did not the great yahoo tell them to bugger off and not ruin the lives of those guys? Perhaps he, she, or it is a closet pedophile or at least a voyeur.

It is a form of supreme idiocy and a waste of time arguing with any of them.


G'day, yourself..

The lamp burns brightly..
I never have to worry about oil any more, I have switched to Lithium Ion batteries..:D

One of my favorite quotes; I think I may have seen it in a sig around here from time to time:

"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level,
then beat you with experience."

Franko
24th January 2003, 01:02 PM
I wrote a simple computer program that visually demonstrates this point.

Franko said it was flawed, then admitted that he hadn't even read the program. I don't know if he has read it since, but according to him, the program "doesn't prove anything".

What EXACTLY are you claiming that your program proves?

You were never clear on that point Joshua K.

(more a-theist obfuscation)

Megalodon
25th January 2003, 05:55 AM
He was clear Franky

Have you read the programs yet?

MRC_Hans
25th January 2003, 07:32 AM
What EXACTLY are you claiming that your program proves?

You were never clear on that point Joshua K.

Liar.

Hans

Franko
25th January 2003, 12:46 PM
So two more fanatics who can't explain it.

very convincing ... :rolleyes:

(all my computer programs have "free will" -- don't yours?)

justsaygnosis
25th January 2003, 01:22 PM
Hi Julia,
It's actually hilarious to read the passion that goes into the posts on this forum topic.
Religion from the atheistic standpoint is completely ungrounded in reality therefore any postulates, theories, stautes and ordinances or subsets of beliefs that emanate from religion are regarded as congruently invalid.
Philosophy is supposed to be speculation and inquiry based on known and provable facts therefore philosophy should be regarded as a more desirable map on which people should plot their life journey.
Both religion and philosophy are divided into multiple perspectives and scores of schools and disciplines. In the USA we have the liberty of finding the one that fit's best and wearing it so long no laws are violated. Due to that, religion needn't be instituted as the prevailing law of the land nor prohibited outright. For me, I hope it remains this way until our sun goes nova or we vanish or evolve into something else either as a species or just a body politique. Regrettably this isn't true of the globe but that's best suited to be posted on Politics and Current Events.
There is overlap in everything in life that can be studied and observed. None of the preeminent schools of science stand without contributions from the others.
Medicine, Physics, Chemistry, Engineering, Agriculture, Mathematics, Psychology, Philosophy, Theology, Anthropology, Geology et al are fields in and of themselves yet none exist independently of the others.
In the microcosm no human being exists that does not draw from all of these as well.
Nature is compatrmentalized insofar as it manifests itself in astounding (infinite?) variety yet all of it is described by consensus as the universe.
To my observation one of the least diverse species that exists is homo-sapien in terms of sub-specieal manifestation yet we are amazingly diverse in expression as a species as a whole. We are enigmatic, paradoxical, contadictory and mysterious from one to another and at any given time unto ourselves as an individual.
If you are truly going to come to terms with the concepts of fate and will and whether it is deterministic or libertarian or entirely random then I say this. "WELCOME TO THE MYSTERY."
After however many thousands of years we homo-sapiens have been a colony on this fragile yet enduring host organism, planet earth, we have yet to reconcile to fully homogenous and androgynous paradigms on the topics of will and fate.
I am of french descent on my father's side. In the spirit of open debate, what I personally hold to be the legitimate battleground of 'CIVILIZATION', I wish you well in your study and will close with this.
Vive La Difference.

justsaygnosis
25th January 2003, 02:09 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CSSMariner

For the record, my birthday is Feb. 23, '44. I can not remove the Dec. 31, '69 from my profile for some reason although it is correct on my form.


I e-mailed Linda about mine, 1/20/55.
It's a program thing.
Perhaps LD doesn't want to acknowledge anyone older than 12/31/69.