Was Moses an Atheist?

[h.g.Whiz]

Did Moses have faith or simply harness it?

[Mister Earl]

Are we even sure the person described in the bible actually existed? If memory serves, for example, the biblical plagues of egypt were never noticed or recorded by the egyptians.

[GodMark2]

Did Moses have faith or simply harness it exist?

Better first question.

[dafydd]

No, he is mythical.

[Cainkane1]

How could he be an atheist. he watched god stick his finger into solid rock and carve out 10 or whatever commandments.

[GT/CS]

Actually, yes I am an athiest, and I do exist so why the past tense?

Oh, sorry, do you mean the Moses from the bible?

[dafydd]

Actually, yes I am an athiest, and I do exist so why the past tense?

Oh, sorry, do you mean the Moses from the bible?
Yes, the imaginary Moses.

[Complexity]

Who cares?

[dafydd]

Who cares?

Red Sea pedestrians?

[Gawdzilla]

Red Sea pedestrians?

:D

[angrysoba]

What's brilliant about the Bible is that while the stories are almost certainly made up even if you believe that someone was faithfully recording these stories the "prophet" characters seem to behave very suspiciously.

For example, Moses traipses up the mountain to talk to God and says that NOBOBY is allowed to follow him up there so who knows what he got up to?

[dafydd]

What's brilliant about the Bible is that while the stories are almost certainly made up even if you believe that someone was faithfully recording these stories the "prophet" characters seem to behave very suspiciously.

For example, Moses traipses up the mountain to talk to God and says that NOBOBY is allowed to follow him up there so who knows what he got up to?

God was giving him tablets. Patient confidentiality.

[Complexity]

For example, Moses traipses up the mountain to talk to God and says that NOBOBY is allowed to follow him up there so who knows what he got up to?


Sneaky little bastard.

No wonder that Tablets-R-Us didn't make it.

Location, location, location.

[Gawdzilla]

What's brilliant about the Bible is that while the stories are almost certainly made up even if you believe that someone was faithfully recording these stories the "prophet" characters seem to behave very suspiciously.

For example, Moses traipses up the mountain to talk to God and says that NOBOBY is allowed to follow him up there so who knows what he got up to?

The Bronze Age Goat-herders' Anthology of Campfire Tales for Boys: God's Little Instruction Manual for Handling Slaves, Sex Slaves, Kitchen Help, Naughty Offspring, Babysitters and the Soon-to-be-extinct Tribes Next Door. Now with The Egomanical Hippie and His All-Boy Posse Hang Out in Palestine.

[Leumas]

The Bronze Age Goat-herders' Anthology of Campfire Tales for Boys: God's Little Instruction Manual for Handling Slaves, Sex Slaves, Kitchen Help, Naughty Offspring, Babysitters and the Soon-to-be-extinct Tribes Next Door. Now with The Egomanical Hippie and His All-Boy Posse Hang Out in Palestine.



See this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4F5z8cVux0&feature=player_embedded) and this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6sdpc8stqI&feature=BFa&list=PL195FC576175D3A81&lf=results_main).

b4F5z8cVux0&feature=player_embedded
i6sdpc8stqI&feature=BFa&list=PL195FC576175D3A81&lf=results_main


ETA: I love your avatar by the way....very apt.

[h.g.Whiz]

Even if Moses never existed, his alleged literature does exist, which leads me to think someone had to have existed in order to create the literature.

[Complexity]

Even if Moses never existed, his alleged literature does exist, which leads me to think someone had to have existed in order to create the literature.


We call them con-men these days.

[Leumas]

Even if Moses Harry Potter never existed, his alleged literature does exist, which leads me to think someone had to have existed in order to create the literature.



I corrected it for you....

[slingblade]

I corrected it for you....

Beat me to it, that time. :p

[Bikewer]

"Say, Imhotep, what's with all the frogs lately."

"Ah....Pharoah says just ignore 'em...."

[h.g.Whiz]

We call them con-men these days.

Who is we and who are them?

Woo whisperers, atheists, critical thinkers, pytheticians perhaps?

[Dinwar]

Who is we More or less anyone who's not a devout Morman in Europe and the USA. If you are a devout Morman you call them "Prophets".

who are themAnyone who systematically constructs a world-view that contradicts everything observable and all rationality, and who do so while insisting that you not question their motives or methods. Basically, anyone who wants us to believe what's obviously not true.

As for Moses, assuming that someone that's somehow similar in some way to what was written in the Bible actually existed, I'd assume that he wasn't an atheist. Very few people were. In fact, monotheism (if he was that) was rare.

[h.g.Whiz]

More or less anyone who's not a devout Morman in Europe and the USA. If you are a devout Morman you call them "Prophets".

Anyone who systematically constructs a world-view that contradicts everything observable and all rationality, and who do so while insisting that you not question their motives or methods. Basically, anyone who wants us to believe what's obviously not true.

As for Moses, assuming that someone that's somehow similar in some way to what was written in the Bible actually existed, I'd assume that he wasn't an atheist. Very few people were. In fact, monotheism (if he was that) was rare.

Why are authors of the past, whose scope was quite limited when compared with today's, the target of ridicule.

If you encountered a chemist that insisted that noble gases did not exist would you blame it on Dimitri Mendeleev?:eusa_think:

[h.g.Whiz]

We call them con-men these days.

So the authors were atheist then?

[h.g.Whiz]

WooBagger, where are you?

[slingblade]

So the authors were atheist then?

Is this really what you came to do?

[slingblade]

Why are authors of the past, whose scope was quite limited when compared with today's, the target of ridicule.

In the case of the probably fictional Moses?

He's a target of apathy, mostly. But any ridicule you perceive would be due to his insisting god was speaking to him, and yet god appears to know nothing more than Moses knew.

If you encountered a chemist that insisted that noble gases did not exist would you blame it on Dimitri Mendeleev?


I blame an ignorance of easily accessible facts on the person who is ignorant.

I don't think you were talking about facts, though, were you?

[I Ratant]

So the authors were atheist then?
.
Yeah, you can say that.
They were/and still do, prey on the gullibility of the audience, raking in the big bucks and the perks, alla time shouting about god, knowing there is no such thing, but it makes for a easy sell, with little effort other than the shouting.
Watcher tv 'vangelists for the modern counterparts of the fabricators of the
"Bronze Age Goatherders....." .

[Complexity]

Is this really what you came to do?


I love it how they nonchalantly stroll around, whistling to the birdies, working their way around us and getting ready to pounce, thinking that we're too dumb to notice them.

[slingblade]

I love it how they nonchalantly stroll around, whistling to the birdies, working their way around us and getting ready to pounce, thinking that we're too dumb to notice them.

Meanwhile, they're carrying around a brass band playing "Onward! Christian Soldiers," strapped to their backs... :rolleyes:

[Complexity]

Meanwhile, they're carrying around a brass band playing "Onward! Christian Soldiers," strapped to their backs... :rolleyes:


What a nasty song.

And they always think they're the first ones to try the 'new' trick they just heard of on us...

[caniswalensis]

Whether he was fictional or based on a real person, it is clear that the person called Moses depicted in the bible is not an atheist.

At several key junctures, he is clearly operating on a sense of personal faith in his God.

A good example would be during the plague on the first born. He instructs the isrealites to mark their doorposts with lamb's blood, as a sign to God that the home belonged to one of his children. They did so, and Moses and the rest remained safe in their homes, having faith in their God that he would keep his promise. Moses could have told them to flee, but instead he held to his faith and kept his people safe while the egyptians died all around them.

Now, if you want to dig deeper and say "maybe he was really just having them on" or something like that; that is fine. Just remember that it is only speculation. You are making up your own fictional story when you do it, and while it might be interesting, it signifies nothing.

The stories in the bible are what they are, no more or no less. they are there for people to read, believe in as they see fit, and possibly learn something from.

So once again, was moses an atheist? Most certainly not.

Can we invent our own story where he is an atheist? yes, but why bother doing so?

Was he a real person? I will leave that to others. :)

[h.g.Whiz]

Is this really what you came to do?

What are the odds of successfully extinguishing religion from society.

[Complexity]

What are the odds of successfully extinguishing religion from society.


No clue, but is a fight worth fighting.

[h.g.Whiz]

No clue, but is a fight worth fighting.

So for every time I witness a friend or family member mention their faith and I keep my opinion to myself, am I retreating.

[Bram Kaandorp]

So for every time I witness a friend or family member mention their faith and I keep my opinion to myself, am I retreating.

No, you're being diplomatic, friendly even.

However, as soon as a family member tries to impose their views onto you, and you choose to keep your opinion to yourself, then.... you're still not retreating.

It would only be retreating if you were to give in and adopt their world view.

But only when it's against your will.

[slingblade]

What are the odds of successfully extinguishing religion from society.

I'm sure I wouldn't know the odds, and have no idea why you're asking me.
Why are you asking me?

[AlaskaBushPilot]

Fictional characters do not have beliefs.

Not sure what the OP is up to, since he has concealed his purpose.

[caniswalensis]

Fictional characters do not have beliefs.

Not sure what the OP is up to, since he has concealed his purpose.

They can have beliefs as ascribed to them by the author of the work they appear in.

The beliefs are as real as the characters are. Which is to say, not at all. :)

For instance, the fictional character Luke Skywalker believes in the power of the force. It is part of his character make-up. If someone tries to explain some part of the story by saying that he is only pretending to believe in it, they have mis-understood the character in a fundamental way. If they begin to write their own stories about Luke from that mistaken viewpoint, the stories are not really about the particular character in question. they have created their own, new character for whatever purposes they seek to fulfill.

[AlaskaBushPilot]

They can have beliefs as ascribed to them by the author of the work they appear in.


The OP asked this question:

Did Moses have faith or simply harness it?

A fictional character cannot harness the beliefs of real people. The author(s) can, but the OP didn't ask that, and I am unsure of his aims because they remain concealed.

There is more than one cultural tradition in the Pentateuch (first five books of the Hebrew Bible allegedly written by Moses). Straight off there are two different creation stories, one right after the other, that were merged by a "redactor" (the author who merged the two). There are other examples of this, called "doublets".

As the Jewish religious authority represents political authority, the Pentateuch is a political compromise between the Northern and Southern Kingdoms which had their own traditions insofar as creation, the flood, etc., a lot of which is recycled poppycock from the older Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh. The rest is a bunch of B.S. (the captivity in Egypt, the 40 years wandering in the desert, etc.) to fabricate a pre-history to indigenous Judeans, and exercise control over them.

The OP is a false dichotomy, but who wrote the Hebrew Bible and why is a very interesting question demonstrating the greed, avarice, and utter depravity of religious leaders.

[Brainache]

They can have beliefs as ascribed to them by the author of the work they appear in.

The beliefs are as real as the characters are. Which is to say, not at all. :)

For instance, the fictional character Luke Skywalker believes in the power of the force. It is part of his character make-up. If someone tries to explain some part of the story by saying that he is only pretending to believe in it, they have mis-understood the character in a fundamental way. If they begin to write their own stories about Luke from that mistaken viewpoint, the stories are not really about the particular character in question. they have created their own, new character for whatever purposes they seek to fulfill.

So I suppose the interesting question is: Did the person or persons unknown who invented the Moses character, believe in God, or were they Atheist? Does George Lucas believe in The Force?

If they are Folk-Tales which were eventually collected and redacted, then I guess the original inventers were the believers and their Story-Tellers who wouldn't have been Atheists.

If they were a cynical invention of a Ruling Elite to legitimise their authority over a gullible population, then I'd say the Authors could have been Atheist.

If it is a cliched plot device parlayed into an industry of psuedo-mystical nonsense based on "Close your eyes and hope for the best" level wishful thinking, then I guess the Author knows a thing or two about milking the Rubes...

I don't know enough about the Moses stories. Who first wrote them down?

It wasn't Lucas was it? That's another guy needs an Editor...

[Limbo]

Do poets have inspiration or simply harness it?

[Foolmewunz]

A possible rephrasing of the question:

Did the character of Moses, as written about in the OT and whether you believe that book or find it a crock, actually have faith or did he merely harness the faith of the other characters in the book, ... as written.

ETA: And I'm at a loss to answer as I don't know the OT as well as I know the Cecil B. DeMille version. But I know that amongst our more activist atheists there is a fairly good working knowledge of those old books.

[MRC_Hans]

Even if Moses never existed, his alleged literature does exist, which leads me to think someone had to have existed in order to create the literature.

Obviously, someone created the literature. So is your question: Was the author(s) of Genesis atheist?

To that, I'd say the they talk an awful lot about God for atheists.

Hans

[Complexity]

Obviously, someone created the literature. So is your question: Was the author(s) of Genesis atheist?

To that, I'd say the they talk an awful lot about God for atheists.

Hans


They could simply be nasty, power-hungry, control-freaky, greedy bastards (much like scientologists).

[bruto]

I may be missing something in this discussion but the original question seems not to make much sense. Staying for the moment within the context of the scriptures, which is to say not worrying about whether the character described is real or fictional, how could he have been an atheist? He interacted directly with god and acted as his agent. Maybe he didn't have the kind of faith asked of theists these days, or perhaps asked of Moses's followers, who are not privileged to meet the boss in person, but he hardly needed it. It seems paradoxical to suggest that a person who knows God through contact and receives his commandments directly would or could be an atheist simply because he need not make a leap of faith. Was Abraham an atheist too, then? Or Job?

[Complexity]

I may be missing something in this discussion but the original question seems not to make much sense. Staying for the moment within the context of the scriptures, which is to say not worrying about whether the character described is real or fictional, how could he have been an atheist? He interacted directly with god and acted as his agent. Maybe he didn't have the kind of faith asked of theists these days, or perhaps asked of Moses's followers, who are not privileged to meet the boss in person, but he hardly needed it. It seems paradoxical to suggest that a person who knows God through contact and receives his commandments directly would or could be an atheist simply because he need not make a leap of faith. Was Abraham an atheist too, then? Or Job?


I think they were all unworthy of being atheists.

We do have standards.

[dafydd]

I think they were all unworthy of being atheists.

We do have standards.

We don't let just anyone into the club.

[Leumas]

I may be missing something in this discussion but the original question seems not to make much sense. Staying for the moment within the context of the scriptures, which is to say not worrying about whether the character described is real or fictional, how could he have been an atheist? He interacted directly with god and acted as his agent. Maybe he didn't have the kind of faith asked of theists these days, or perhaps asked of Moses's followers, who are not privileged to meet the boss in person, but he hardly needed it. It seems paradoxical to suggest that a person who knows God through contact and receives his commandments directly would or could be an atheist simply because he need not make a leap of faith. Was Abraham an atheist too, then? Or Job?



I am writing the following analysis just like a student of literature might analyze the character of Shylock or Othello.

Let's consider something..... Moses refused to do god's bidding. He argued and argued with him so as to send someone else.

Also when the Israelites started worshiping a bull they just cast, god became quite irate and wanted to kill them all. Moses then reminded god that the egyptians would gloat and snicker at god and managed to dissuade god from doing what he wanted to do out of precipitous impetuous rashness.

Also Moses saw it more fit to strike the rock to get water than to speak to it as god commanded him. Obviously Moses thought that the SHOW OFF effect would be more impressive. So Moses sinned against god (http://www.godsacres.org/ss.MosesSinsAgainstGod.pdf) despite knowing him personally face to face and talking to him all the time. Perhaps familiarity does breed contempt.

So it looks like Moses was not very impressed by god.

Also Abraham did the same thing....he HAGGLED with god and Sarah even LAUGHED at god.

Jacob even beat god in a wrestling match. Jacob even bargained with god on whether he would accept him as his god. Jacob told god that if god served Jacob really well and did everything Jacob wanted then Jacob would accept god as his god and he would even pay god 10% of the riches Jacob would gain from the good services god would give Jacob.


But I do agree with you in regards to Job....he was servile to god heart and soul.

But when it comes to Abraham and Moses and Jacob..... I must say that they really really were not that IMPRESSED with god...to them he was quite an anthropomorphic being with interesting super powers that can be bargained to serve them..... just like a human might tame a much more powerful lion or horse or falcon.

[bruto]

I am writing the following analysis just like a student of literature might analyze the character of Shylock or Othello.

Let's consider something..... Moses refused to do god's bidding. He argued and argued with him so as to send someone else.

Also when the Israelites started worshiping a bull they just cast, god became quite irate and wanted to kill them all. Moses then reminded god that the egyptians would gloat and snicker at god and managed to dissuade god from doing what he wanted to do out of precipitous impetuous rashness.

Also Moses saw it more fit to strike the rock to get water than to speak to it as god commanded him. Obviously Moses thought that the SHOW OFF effect would be more impressive. So Moses sinned against god (http://www.godsacres.org/ss.MosesSinsAgainstGod.pdf) despite knowing him personally face to face and talking to him all the time. Perhaps familiarity does breed contempt.

So it looks like Moses was very impressed by god.

Also Abraham did the same thing....he HAGGLED with god and Sarah even LAUGHED at god.

Jacob even beat god in a wrestling match. Jacob even bargained with god on whether he would accept him as his god. Jacob told god that if god served Jacob really well and did everything Jacob wanted then Jacob would accept god as his god and he would even pay god 10% of the riches Jacob would gain from the good services god would give Jacob.


But I do agree with you in regards to Job....he was servile to god heart and soul.

But when it comes to Abraham and Moses and Jacob..... I must say that they really really were not that IMPRESSED with god...to them he was quite an anthropomorphic being with interesting super powers that can be bargained to serve them..... just like a human might tame a much more powerful lion or horse or falcon.

But assuming that atheism hinges on the existence, rather than the characteristics, of gods, then someone who haggles with God, defies him, or bargains over service cannot be properly called an atheist. The Greek gods were also far from the supreme omni omni supergod theists prefer these days, but we don't usually consider pantheists and polytheists and the like atheists either.

[slingblade]

Do poets have inspiration or simply harness it?

Yes. Next "clever" question? :rolleyes:

[therival58]

Are we even sure the person described in the bible actually existed? If memory serves, for example, the biblical plagues of egypt were never noticed or recorded by the egyptians.

all of the historic records of the plagues in egypt were erased by satan, just like the fossil record for the flood!:jaw-dropp

[Bram Kaandorp]

all of the historic records of the plagues in egypt were erased by satan, just like the fossil record for the flood!:jaw-dropp

Why would he?

If the plagues really happened, that would be a great place for satan to tell people;

"Say, if God is so great, then why did he need those plagues to get the pharaoh to change his mind? And killing all those people who had nothing to do with it in the process? What kind of brute does that?"

Which just shows you that there is no satan either.

[Multivac]

What are the odds of successfully extinguishing religion from society.

No idea, but it is a worthy cause.

[Dinwar]

all of the historic records of the plagues in egypt were erased by satan, just like the fossil record for the floodI'll need to use this next time some idiot brings up Deluge Geology. :D

[caniswalensis]

Why would he?

If the plagues really happened, that would be a great place for satan to tell people;

"Say, if God is so great, then why did he need those plagues to get the pharaoh to change his mind?

If you read exodus, it answers this question with no diminishment of God's power.

Pharoh was going to relent and free the isrealites with no ruckus, but God felt like demonstrating his power. So he "hardened Pharoh's heart" and caused him to refuse, in spite of his own inclinations. Then he punished Pharoh & all of Egypt for doing what he forced them to do to so how mighty he was.

Yeah. that's what it says.

This is the story that made me realize the bible was written by man.

[davefoc]

I may be missing something in this discussion but the original question seems not to make much sense. Staying for the moment within the context of the scriptures, which is to say not worrying about whether the character described is real or fictional, how could he have been an atheist? He interacted directly with god and acted as his agent. Maybe he didn't have the kind of faith asked of theists these days, or perhaps asked of Moses's followers, who are not privileged to meet the boss in person, but he hardly needed it. It seems paradoxical to suggest that a person who knows God through contact and receives his commandments directly would or could be an atheist simply because he need not make a leap of faith. Was Abraham an atheist too, then? Or Job?

And did Harry Potter really have a magic wand?

I think the point that a number of people have made is that Moses was a fictional character and as such the question about whether he was an atheist is ambiguous. Can an individual that didn't exist be an atheist?

I see a few possibilities for what the author of the OP intended:
1. Assuming that Moses existed was he a true believer or a cynical scammer?
2. Was the fictional character Moses portrayed as an atheist in the bible?
3. Were the people that wrote the Moses stories true believers or scammers?
4. In general, are the founders of religious movements true believers or cynical scammers?

And my answers:
1. Impossible to answer. The biblical Moses did not exist. The whole thing is made up, but even if you posit a real Moses of some sort there is absolutely no information about him so there are no facts to make any kind of judgment about his beliefs.
2. The biblical (fictional) Moses is a true believer.
3. Probably a mix. The goal of the written stories, I think, was to provide work for priests and to unite a people around a particular political leadership. Some place in there, I suspect, are some people that convinced themselves that their embellishments of oral stories were close enough to truth that they were doing more than just making stuff up. Were the earliest originators of the oral stories true believers or scammers? I don't know. I suspect they were just guys making stuff up to puff up their own position as story tellers in their groups.
4. Probably a mix also. The religion that we can answer this most clearly on is Scientology and the founder was a pure scammer. The religion, I know the most about the formation of is Christianity. My sense of it is that the founders had a belief that lying for God was a good thing, but pure scammer can't be ruled out.*

* My view is that Christianity was formed by Greek speaking people separated by time, distance, language and culture from a hypothetical Jesus. Christianity was a modification of a religion that predated the hypothetical Jesus by more than 100 years that was derived from Judaism and focused on the Septuagint for which the adherents were known as God-Fearers. We don't know what the source of information about Jesus was for the people that founded Christianity. They may have been inspired by stories derived from an actual Jesus oriented Palestinian sect either directly or via Jewish Christians living near them or they could have just made the whole thing up. I lean to the idea that at least some of their writing was derived from the beliefs of a Jewish Jesus oriented Palestinian sect. I have never been able to find strong evidence for my belief about that though.

[bruto]

Davefoc, what you say makes a certain amount of sense, but I think we're overthinking this. We can never know for sure who was where or did what or why in real life. Most religions have an element of scam to them but that doesn't mean they aren't also sincerely held. The fact that the Pope really is Catholic doesn't mean he isn't also a political and cultural manipulator, for example. I take your point 2 as the core of the question and your answer #2 as the one I'd have chosen, and am satisfied to let the other issues be hashed out by others.

[h.g.Whiz]

And did Harry Potter really have a magic wand?

I think the point that a number of people have made is that Moses was a fictional character and as such the question about whether he was an atheist is ambiguous. Can an individual that didn't exist be an atheist?

I see a few possibilities for what the author of the OP intended:
1. Assuming that Moses existed was he a true believer or a cynical scammer?
2. Was the fictional character Moses portrayed as an atheist in the bible?
3. Were the people that wrote the Moses stories true believers or scammers?
4. In general, are the founders of religious movements true believers or cynical scammers?

And my answers:
1. Impossible to answer. The biblical Moses did not exist. The whole thing is made up, but even if you posit a real Moses of some sort there is absolutely no information about him so there are no facts to make any kind of judgment about his beliefs.
2. The biblical (fictional) Moses is a true believer.
3. Probably a mix. The goal of the written stories, I think, was to provide work for priests and to unite a people around a particular political leadership. Some place in there, I suspect, are some people that convinced themselves that their embellishments of oral stories were close enough to truth that they were doing more than just making stuff up. Were the earliest originators of the oral stories true believers or scammers? I don't know. I suspect they were just guys making stuff up to puff up their own position as story tellers in their groups.
4. Probably a mix also. The religion that we can answer this most clearly on is Scientology and the founder was a pure scammer. The religion, I know the most about the formation of is Christianity. My sense of it is that the founders had a belief that lying for God was a good thing, but pure scammer can't be ruled out.*

* My view is that Christianity was formed by Greek speaking people separated by time, distance, language and culture from a hypothetical Jesus. Christianity was a modification of a religion that predated the hypothetical Jesus by more than 100 years that was derived from Judaism and focused on the Septuagint for which the adherents were known as God-Fearers. We don't know what the source of information about Jesus was for the people that founded Christianity. They may have been inspired by stories derived from an actual Jesus oriented Palestinian sect either directly or via Jewish Christians living near them or they could have just made the whole thing up. I lean to the idea that at least some of their writing was derived from the beliefs of a Jewish Jesus oriented Palestinian sect. I have never been able to find strong evidence for my belief about that though.

Wow, thanks for the break down.

[davefoc]

Davefoc, what you say makes a certain amount of sense, but I think we're overthinking this. We can never know for sure who was where or did what or why in real life. Most religions have an element of scam to them but that doesn't mean they aren't also sincerely held. The fact that the Pope really is Catholic doesn't mean he isn't also a political and cultural manipulator, for example. I take your point 2 as the core of the question and your answer #2 as the one I'd have chosen, and am satisfied to let the other issues be hashed out by others.

This topic touched on issues I've done a bit of thinking about (not that this has led to any great insight) and I think I mostly just felt like talking about it a bit. I also was not quite sure there wasn't some hidden point to the question at the time I wrote my post (sorry h.g. whiz but you wouldn't be the first poster to start a thread off with a hidden agenda) and I was trying to be categorical about what the possible directions that h.g.whiz might have intended.

I am one that has no conscious memory of religious belief and I have been curious about the nature of people that believe and the nature of people that promote belief for a long time. Before I began participation in this forum (about 9 years ago or so) my thought was that most people that claimed religious beliefs were actually atheists. I assumed they were pretty much like me, going along with the deal so as to not offend the occasional old lady that might happen to be a true believer but secretly they were very skeptical of this stuff.

I believe I was wrong because when we have the threads about when you became skeptical of religion a fairly large percentage of the responders state that they were true believers for some part of their lives.

Of course you are right that founders and promoters of religion are some kind of mix between true believer and cynic, but the nature of that mix interests me. Schuller, the crystal cathedral guy, years ago faked a trip to China as part of a fund raising drive. My initial thought was that this suggested that cynicism more than true belief was the stronger driver for Schuller, but then I wondered is this part of the lying for religion is OK because religion is good and promoting it is good so maybe lying to promote religion is still possible for true believers? OK, spring forward 30 years or so and the Crystal Cathedral is in bankruptcy, Schuller has been using the thing as a giant cash cow for himself and his family for years even while the finances of the church were going into the toilet and low level creditors were going unpaid while the Schuller clan raked in the big bucks. So now can we say that Schuller was more cynic than true believer? Maybe not. Maybe his self interest bias is so strong that it blinds him to the reality that screwing people over is sort of hypocritical when a big part of your message is about Christian charity and loving your fellow man, etc.

So to tie this in to the opening post (which is a little difficult to do since it is a stretch to see it as relevant) we don't know remotely as much about the people that wrote the old testament as we do about Schuller and it still looks hard to figure out where true believer ends and scammer begins.