Colin Powell, in USA Weekend

[Riddick]

Above the statue of Jefferson, in 2-foot-high letters on the base of the monument's dome is this inscription: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Jefferson Memorial, Washington, D.C.

Here, I said, you see the foundation of America, a nation where "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights." - Colin Powell, "Of Memory and Our Democracy", USA Weekend.

I showed the general the final lines of Lincoln's second inaugural address: "With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow, and his orphan..." - Colin Powell, "Of Memory and Our Democracy", USA Weekend.

The haunting symbolism of the 168 empty chairs at the Oklahoma City National Memorial, the heartbreaking piles of shoes in the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, the carefully tended headstones bearing crosses, crescents and Stars of David standing row-on-row in Arlington and our other national cemetaries --- all speak to the value we place on human life. - Colin Powell, "Of Memory and Our Democracy," USA Weekend.

USA Weekend (http://www.usaweekend.com/04_issues/040502/040502colin_powell.html)

[Zep]

Hmmmm. Quoting Powell quoting others. So this means...?

:confused:


Your point, Riddick?

[Lord Emsworth]

Riddick,

you apparently misunderstood a very crucial thing about Christianity. The one that is your savior is not Colin Powell. It is Jesus Christ.

Remember this. Jesus Christ and not Colin Powell.

[Nyarlathotep]

Riddick, I am very curious as to why you post this sort of thing. Do you honestly think anyone is going to read this and think "Oh, well if Colin Powell beleives in God, that's good enough for me"?

I am genuinely curious as to your motives.

[uruk]

God!! everyone believes in him. Why don't you?
Everybody does it! why don't you?

If everybody jumped off a cliff, would you jump too?

[Mr Manifesto]

I just farted in the bath, and it sounded exactly like the book of acts! I'm not kidding! This is what came out:

Acts 1
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

So now I'm confused. Is my butt holy, or is Jesus farty?

edit Forgot to mention: It was the King James Version, too!

[Riddick]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
Riddick, I am very curious as to why you post this sort of thing. Do you honestly think anyone is going to read this and think "Oh, well if Colin Powell beleives in God, that's good enough for me"?

I am genuinely curious as to your motives.
Let's set Colin Powell on the back burner for a little while. Again, turning our attention away from Colin Powell....

Let's turn our attention to the National Mall (http://www.fineliving.com/fine/adventure_essentials/article/0,1663,FINE_1421_1500498,00.html) located in Washington, D.C. Maybe you have had a chance to visit the National Mall and it's unforgettable monuments.

The Jefferson Memorial. One of the monuments at the National Mall is the Jefferson Memorial. The monument to Thomas Jefferson, principal writer of the Declaration of Independence, is a beautiful domed structure that houses a standing statue of the President himself. Located on the tidal basin, the memorial is surrounded by Japanese cherry trees that blossom in April and enhance the splendor of the marble structure.

The Jefferson Memorial is capped by a dome. Standing inside the Jefferson Memorial looking up at the base of the dome one can see the following inscription in two foot high letters: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

The Lincoln Memorial. [Gary] Scott thinks of the Lincoln Memorial as the most imposing monument on the mall. A huge rectangular structure containing a massive seated statue of the President and inscriptions of famous speeches, the building also provides a wonderful view of the Washington Monument and, in the distance, the Capitol Building. "...the final lines of Lincoln's second inaugural address: 'With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in;'"

In summary, we have Thomas Jefferson referencing "God" in two foot high chiseled letters and Abraham Lincoln's words in his second inaugural address referencing "God."

Additionally, if you visit George Washington's home, you will see the sarcophagus where George and Martha lay. Inscribed on the wall inside the sarcophagus structure is a bible text.

Interesting, is it not?

[cbish]

Riddick wrote:
Interesting, is it not?

Perhaps!?!:confused: I've been to these places and they are interesting. Have you ever read any of their published works? Do you know Jefferson's and Washington's stand on religion. As I understand it, they were deists.

You're not suggesting that our government was established on good christian foundations, are you?

[uruk]

I'm a christian, he's a christian, she's a christian. Wouldn't you like to be a christian too? Be achristian, come on and be christian.

No thanks, I drink Iced tea!!

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Riddick

Let's set Colin Powell on the back burner for a little while. Again, turning our attention away from Colin Powell....

Let's turn our attention to the National Mall (http://www.fineliving.com/fine/adventure_essentials/article/0,1663,FINE_1421_1500498,00.html) located in Washington, D.C. Maybe you have had a chance to visit the National Mall and it's unforgettable monuments.

The Jefferson Memorial. One of the monuments at the National Mall is the Jefferson Memorial. The monument to Thomas Jefferson, principal writer of the Declaration of Independence, is a beautiful domed structure that houses a standing statue of the President himself. Located on the tidal basin, the memorial is surrounded by Japanese cherry trees that blossom in April and enhance the splendor of the marble structure.

The Jefferson Memorial is capped by a dome. Standing inside the Jefferson Memorial looking up at the base of the dome one can see the following inscription in two foot high letters: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

The Lincoln Memorial. [Gary] Scott thinks of the Lincoln Memorial as the most imposing monument on the mall. A huge rectangular structure containing a massive seated statue of the President and inscriptions of famous speeches, the building also provides a wonderful view of the Washington Monument and, in the distance, the Capitol Building. "...the final lines of Lincoln's second inaugural address: 'With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in;'"

In summary, we have Thomas Jefferson referencing "God" in two foot high chiseled letters and Abraham Lincoln's words in his second inaugural address referencing "God."

Additionally, if you visit George Washington's home, you will see the sarcophagus where George and Martha lay. Inscribed on the wall inside the sarcophagus structure is a bible text.

Interesting, is it not?

You didn't answer my question. There are a lot of religious people in the world, there were a lot of religious people int he world in the 18th century. Thus it stands to reason that many prominant people of the past and present were religious. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. I still don't get it, are you expecting people to think "Wow! all these famous people were Christians! Maybe I should become one too!"?

I would be careful using Jefferson as an example for your cause, though, he was a deist and his concept of God would have been very different than your average Christian would be. That quote is especially bad because if you read the whole letter (to Benjamin Rush in 1800) you see that he said it as a means of being ironic,a s he was explaining why the clergy of the time opposed his candidacy for presidency. Yes, I know that it is written on the Jefferson Memorial, but most people don't realize that in it's original context it was meant as a jab at the clergy rather than a profound statement of faith, as people such as yourself like to take it.

[Riddick]

Here (http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/lit/jeff04.htm) is the letter you speak of. If you want my opinion, you're really reaching for the meaning you imply. That's it, straight up, I don't know how to put flowers around it --- if I did, I'd be a governor or something.

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." It is what it is. K.I.S.S.

More on Jefferson here (http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2001/01/daily-01-16-2001.shtml).

Indeed, if these people are referencing God, would that be something that you also should consider? It seems only prudent, don't you agree? Or does your skepticism allow you the freedom to discard their thinking as dimwitted?...?...?

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by uruk
I'm a christian, he's a christian, she's a christian. Wouldn't you like to be a christian too? Be achristian, come on and be christian.


I'm a guy,
You're a guy,
He's a guy,
But is she one?
We are guys,
You guys are guys,
She sure would like to be one.

-Douglas Hofstadter

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by Riddick
Indeed, if these people are referencing God, would that be something that you also should consider? It seems only prudent, don't you agree? Or does your skepticism allow you the freedom to discard their thinking as dimwitted?...?...?



Yes.

[Riddick]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth
Yes.
You feel that your likeness should be in place of Abraham Lincoln at the Lincoln Memorial at the National Mall?

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by Riddick

You feel that your likeness should be in place of Abraham Lincoln at the Lincoln Memorial at the National Mall?



Where have I said such?

[Riddick]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth
Where have I said such?
You seemed to imply that Lincoln's thinking was dimwitted by nature of your "Yes" reply.

So I wondered how lofty you regarded yourself.

[Lord Emsworth]

Your question was:

Or does your skepticism allow you the freedom to discard their thinking as dimwitted?...?...?

To which I answered with Yes. The only thing that that implies is that my skepticism allows me the freedom to discard their thinking as dimwitted!...!...!

Heck, it even allows me the freedom to discard any thinking as dimwitted.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Riddick
Here (http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/lit/jeff04.htm) is the letter you speak of. If you want my opinion, you're really reaching for the meaning you imply. That's it, straight up, I don't know how to put flowers around it --- if I did, I'd be a governor or something.

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." It is what it is. K.I.S.S.
Not reaching at all. The "they" in the letter is the clergy. Jefferson pretty much considered religion, as practiced by the clergy he was talking about, to be a form of "tyranny over the mind of man". Knowing WHY he wrote the letter (because these clergymen were opposing his candidacy for presidency) makes it no reach to draw this conclusion.


More on Jefferson here (http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2001/01/daily-01-16-2001.shtml).

Information put out by a religious website, sure, I bet that's fair and balanced. I would recomend going to the library and checking out "The Empire of Reason" by Henry Steele Commager. Commager is regarded as one of the nations foremost historians (and I have never heard accusations by anyone that he has either a pro or anti religious bias. his book seems pretty balanced) and that book has a good chapter on the religious views of the founding fathers (and the influence of those views on the Constitution)

Indeed, if these people are referencing God, would that be something that you also should consider? It seems only prudent, don't you agree? Or does your skepticism allow you the freedom to discard their thinking as dimwitted?...?...?

Ah finally you begin to answer my question. FIrst of all, you presume that I haven't considered the existance of God. Ihave considered the idea, found it lacking and rejected it. Your last question is a strawman. I do not reject their thinking as "dimwitted" but my skepticism does not allow me the freedom to accept their thinking for no better reason than the fact that they thought it.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Riddick

You seemed to imply that Lincoln's thinking was dimwitted by nature of your "Yes" reply.

So I wondered how lofty you regarded yourself.

It is possible to disagree with someone without thinking that you are better than them all around. You might not be able to, I don't know, but most of the rest of us can.

[rebecca]

Nyarlathotep,

Your answers are well-reasoned and fair in response to a very odd question posed by Riddick. I read the Jefferson letter and agree with you regarding the tone of his statement. Thanks for the book suggestion about "The Empire of Reason," I'm going to check that out.

As for Riddick's point itself, which appears to be "If a respected person appears to believe in a particular god, so should we," I really don't understand how that holds any water. The past few centuries have seen many great intellectuals who believed in a variety of philosophies. I admire them all for different reasons, but surely no one expects me to agree with everything they believe. I don't see how this is debatable.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by rebecca
Nyarlathotep,

Your answers are well-reasoned and fair in response to a very odd question posed by Riddick. I read the Jefferson letter and agree with you regarding the tone of his statement. Thanks for the book suggestion about "The Empire of Reason," I'm going to check that out.

It's very dry reading, but very informative. It gives good insight into why a lot of things were designed the way they are in the cosntitution.

As for Riddick's point itself, which appears to be "If a respected person appears to believe in a particular god, so should we," I really don't understand how that holds any water. The past few centuries have seen many great intellectuals who believed in a variety of philosophies. I admire them all for different reasons, but surely no one expects me to agree with everything they believe. I don't see how this is debatable.

Yep. I would never deny that many smart educated people were Christians. Many smart educated people are atheists, too. You can find smart educted people following just every philosophy under the sun. I would be willing to bet that you would find them in roughly the same proprtion as the general population. So any attempt to say "look at so and so he was a Christian so you should be too!" is doomed to failure.

[cbish]

From this:
More on Jefferson here.

It seemed that nothing scared church monopolists so much as the Bible--and with good reason. The Bible has a way of turning the world upside down, because God's way of looking at things is so different from our everyday thinking. Just imagine how radical Jesus sounded the first time he said that it is not big shots, but servants, who are greatest in the kingdom of heaven!

This is the websites slant. Nothing to do with Jefferson.

The problem was monopoly. A single denomination would be established as the faith of a country and everyone was taxed to support it. These established churches were often opposed to reforms, because they wanted to hang onto their privileges. Governments also preferred to have just one church because a single church is easier to oversee.

Yes, this is what Jefferson politically objected to.

Thomas Jefferson was disgusted. If you tell a man what to believe and punish him if he doesn't, .......

Yes, again Jefferson politically objects. And I agree.


No one should suffer from the government on account of his religious beliefs. Everyone should be free to spread whatever religious opinions convince him. Jefferson did not argue that religion should be suppressed but only that the state must not make any form of it mandatory.

Yes and I agree also. The state has no business in religion. With all due respect, there is nothing on this page that is indicative of Jefferson's religious beliefs. Everything here is completely consistent with his political ideology that the government has no right to interfere in private matters. I agree with the sediment of this page and I also would have been proud to legistlatively push it..........even if I don't believe in god.

[Riddick]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
Ah finally you begin to answer my question.
Smarmyism noted. Sigh. Why do you feel you must resort to such quips. I hope you'll grow out of it one day. If you ever face a judge one day, he will promptly throw that *hit out in the garbage.

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
FIrst of all, you presume that I haven't considered the existance of God. I have considered the idea, found it lacking and rejected it.
You would say you are "gifted" with perfect knowledge?

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep Your last question is a strawman. I do not reject their thinking as "dimwitted" but my skepticism does not allow me the freedom to accept their thinking for no better reason than the fact that they thought it.
Forgive me for accepting their thinking more readily than I accept yours.

As far as the letter written by Jefferson, I suggest that the slide is somewhere between the two extremes:
[Jab @ clergy............................[Actual Slide position]............................statement of faith]

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Riddick

Smarmyism noted. Sigh. Why do you feel you must resort to such quips. I hope you'll grow out of it one day. If you ever face a judge one day, he will promptly throw that *hit out in the garbage.

But Riddick, you're not a judge. Why do you suppose I would talk to a judge the way I would talk to you? And besides it wasn't being smarmy, I asked you a direct question and it took you two posts before you gave me a direct answer.


You would say you are "gifted" with perfect knowledge?

Nope, I don't need to be. I have seen no evidence to convince me of God. Do you think that Lincoln or Jefferson were gifted with perfect knowledge? Any real study of histroy will disabuse you of that notion. they were men like anyone else. They were just as capable of error as you or I. Jefferson was a great statesman and Lincoln guided our country through the worst crisis it has ever faced bar none. These are great acheivements and I will likely never accomplish anything on that scale. But do I think that those acheivements give them any special insights into the nature of the universe? No way.


Forgive me for accepting their thinking more readily than I accept yours.

That's fine. You wil note that I am not asking you to accept my position. You seem to be asking me to accept yours and I am asking for a good reason why I should. So far you haven't given me one. The fact that any number of famous people have accepted yours is not a good reason.

As far as the letter written by Jefferson, I suggest that the slide is somewhere between the two extremes:
[Jab @ clergy............................[Actual Slide position]............................statement of faith]

My own studies of history lead me to conclude otherwise but I will grant you that even accepting it as somewhere in the middle puts you ahead of a lot of other religious types as far as I am concerned.

[WildCat]

Here's another smart Christian. (http://edition.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/26/white.supremacist.trial.ap/) Even heads his own church. Must be a nice guy, right?


http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/LAW/04/26/white.supremacist.trial.ap/story.hale.ap.jpg

Note the furrowed brow all good Christian preachers have. It shows his great concern for you, his flock. That or the prison sentence he's about to receive. :p

[uruk]

Jefferson owned slaves.
like a good christian.

Lincoln's first case as a lawyer was to have a runaway slave returned to his owner.
Like a good christian.

You say these men had some special insight? Bah!!!! they were just en of their times.

[rebecca]

Originally posted by Riddick

You would say you are "gifted" with perfect knowledge?


Let me get this straight. You began a thread by making a statement that essentially amounted to: "These individuals believed in the Christian god, and therefore so should you."

When questioned, you back up your statement by claiming it must be true because we're not perfect?

I'm not following. Why don't you just claim that you're right because my shirt is blue?

[Tony]

It only takes christian arrogance and stupidity to assume anyone mentioning the word "god" is an indication they are a christian. Most people who believe in god ARE NOT Christians.

[wollery]

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

My emphasis because I feel that these are the pivotal words in this sentence. It shows that he's against forcing people into believing anything, that he's for freedom of thought and belief.

Not really the point Riddick was trying to make is it? ;)