Mutual beneficial relationships with animals

[h.g.Whiz]

Turning our pests into servants seems like a good idea to me.

http://www.ted.com/talks/joshua_klein_on_the_intelligence_of_crows.html

[Modified]

Instead of breaking ground for gardening, I just poke holes with a rake handle and put a bit of fish guts in each one. The raccoons do a pretty good job of tearing up the hard ground.

[Dancing David]

Well it certainly helps us introduce new diseases.

[quarky]

That was great. I've got lots of thoughts along this angle, with many other species.
In the case of certain insect pests, they all have a tool, of sorts, designed for a particular type of work. We can exploit that, if we know how to invent our need for that work.

More later.

[Roboramma]

It seems fitting that quarky would have had thoughts along this line. Such "technology" deserves to be called truly elegant.

[h.g.Whiz]

I have often pondered exploiting ants. There are some animals that ants do not attack. Ants would make wonderful housekeepers. Not only could they dispose of our waste they could also keep out unwanted guest.

[h.g.Whiz]

Well it certainly helps us introduce new diseases.



http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_ewald_asks_can_we_domesticate_germs.html

[quarky]

Termites have great potential, imho, for exploitation, or symbiosis. We mostly concentrate on killing them, yet, with something like an artificial colony chamber, they could provide many services.

I've often wondered if raccoons could be domesticated. There's a lot of tasks that they could do well, with their awesome climbing abilities and their manual dexterity.

Geese are sometimes used to weed gardens. Their are other animals that would till and fertilize a garden. Goats are used to prepare plots of land for certain uses.
This is the tip of the iceberg, as per the possibilities.

Its interesting that crows are (evidently) quite willing to work for their food...in a way that benefits us.

[h.g.Whiz]

Termites have great potential, imho, for exploitation, or symbiosis. We mostly concentrate on killing them, yet, with something like an artificial colony chamber, they could provide many services.

I've often wondered if raccoons could be domesticated. There's a lot of tasks that they could do well, with their awesome climbing abilities and their manual dexterity.

Geese are sometimes used to weed gardens. Their are other animals that would till and fertilize a garden. Goats are used to prepare plots of land for certain uses.
This is the tip of the iceberg, as per the possibilities.

Its interesting that crows are (evidently) quite willing to work for their food...in a way that benefits us.


Do you know if any research is being done concerning your list of candidates?

[sphenisc]

From the comments section:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/magazine/12letters-t-CORRECTIONS-1.html

[h.g.Whiz]

From the comments section:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/magazine/12letters-t-CORRECTIONS-1.html

What impressed me the most in the video I posted, was the part about the crow dropping a nut in traffic and then eating it after the cars ran over it.

[Gawdzilla]

Instead of breaking ground for gardening, I just poke holes with a rake handle and put a bit of fish guts in each one. The raccoons do a pretty good job of tearing up the hard ground.

Plan a good grade of grass in your garden and use a seed drill to plant your veggies. Good method of "natural" weed control. (You can make seed drill by sharpening a handle. I tie a cross piece on mine at the depth I want the seeds and then just step on it. The drill stops when the cross piece hits the ground. Perfect depth every time.)

[quarky]

Do you know if any research is being done concerning your list of candidates?

Not aware of any.

[Roboramma]

From the comments section:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/magazine/12letters-t-CORRECTIONS-1.html

That's disappointing. For those who didn't click the link:

The article reported that beginning in June 2008, Klein tested the machine at the Binghamton Zoo, that the crows learned how to use it and that after a month the crows were actually scouring the ground for loose change.

The Times has since learned that Klein was never at the Binghamton Zoo, and there were no crows on display there in June 2008.
Klein did get a professor at Binghamton to help him try it out twice in Ithaca, with assistance from a Binghamton graduate student, and it was not a success. Corvid experts who have since been interviewed have said that Klein’s machine is unlikely to work as intended.

[h.g.Whiz]

That's disappointing. For those who didn't click the link:

I hope you weren't referring to me because, I did click it. However embarrassing it might be for Klein, I didn't pay much mind to the machine to begin with.

What impressed me the most in the video I posted, was the part about the crow dropping a nut in traffic and then eating it after the cars ran over it.

[Roboramma]

Not meant personally, just under the assumption that there are usually people like me reading the thread who don't often click on links. I thought this one was particularly relevant and thus worth quoting.

I agree that the crows dropping nuts on the street are pretty cool. I think, though, that they break the nuts simply in the act of dropping them, using streets because they offer a hard surface. it's just that once they're broken they have to wait for the light before it's safe to go and eat them: ie, for them the cars aren't a tool, they're just something to avoid.
I may be misremembering that, but I think I'm right.

[quarky]

There's quite a bit of research that shows crows solving unique problems. I wonder if they are flawed?
Chickens aren't known for their smarts, yet I've taught mine to do some complicated stuff.
A casual observer might see them as being smart, but I merely added one more step, very gradually, in the complex entry to the roost. Actually, only one chicken had to learn; the others follow. It was an effective method to keep varmints out.

[sphenisc]

Talking of clever birds, I bought a self-basting turkey this year.

[quarky]

One of the easiest exploitative scenarios I've had with insects has been with hormone traps for Japanese beetles. By adding a pipe to the bottom of the trap (instead of a bag) and setting the bottom of that pipe a few inches above a pan of water, I was able to feed my chickens for a few months, for a few cents of hormone.

They prefered the bugs over any other food, and produced very rich eggs during that time.

Friends have done similar over their catfish ponds.

[Toke]

I have heard of swine being used the clear land for gardening, just fence them in and perhaps throw some food under the densest bushes.

[quarky]

I have heard of swine being used the clear land for gardening, just fence them in and perhaps throw some food under the densest bushes.

Yes, and to seal a new pond.

[Toke]

Yes, and to seal a new pond.
what?

A pond is a hole in the ground expected to fill with water, right?

[quarky]

what?

A pond is a hole in the ground expected to fill with water, right?

Yes. Hogs will root around in the area, pulling out all traces of roots and leaky bits, while laying down a smeary poop layer, which goes a bit anaerobic. Mostly, the pre-pond soil gets nicely compacted. Then, the hogs are moved off.

[Toke]

Yes. Hogs will root around in the area, pulling out all traces of roots and leaky bits, while laying down a smeary poop layer, which goes a bit anaerobic. Mostly, the pre-pond soil gets nicely compacted. Then, the hogs are moved off.
Ok. :)

[CapelDodger]

Goats are used to prepare plots of land for certain uses.

Are they? The received wisdom is that if you want to make a desert, start with goats.

Pigs are great for preparing ground. They root up everything and manure as they go.

eta : oops, I see you know that already.

[quarky]

Goats will improve land (for our needs) if they are kept moving. They won't much disturb mature trees, except to keep vines off of them. Their browsing tends to minimize low-growing shrubs, whilst fertilizing for the future understory.

[h.g.Whiz]

Turning our pests into servants seems like a good idea to me.

http://www.ted.com/talks/joshua_klein_on_the_intelligence_of_crows.html


I tripped out after I realized I created this thread before I learned about http://www.calresco.org/texts/mutaid.htm

[quarky]

Oh no.

I'm going to have to read that.
I like being here at this school, but why do we have to have so much homework?

[Janadele]

Goat's milk is excellent for health.

[h.g.Whiz]

Oh no.

I'm going to have to read that.
I like being here at this school, but why do we have to have so much homework?

I listen too it.

[quarky]

I listen too it.

I'm a total e-tard.
the link didn't give me a listen option.

Or is that not what you meant; you listen to it?

Apologies for being this stupid, but it's true.

[h.g.Whiz]

I'm a total e-tard.
the link didn't give me a listen option.

Or is that not what you meant; you listen to it?

Apologies for being this stupid, but it's true.

http://archive.org/details/mutual_aid_0808_librivox

[h.g.Whiz]

Enjoy the accent.

[quarky]

thanks

[h.g.Whiz]

thanks

Can you understand him? You would think that they would assign someone that speaks english.

[Soapy Sam]

Watching crows haul rabbit and other roadkill carcasses off the road, I reckon they already do good work. I've been impressed by the fact that on roads with a "hard shoulder" (ie a surfaced, non drivable strip alongside the drivable carriageway- used for emergency access) they don't pull the carcass onto the grass verge, but stop once they get it across the painted line at the edge of the inside lane. They seem to recognise that this is a "barrier" to vehicles.

[quarky]

Watching crows haul rabbit and other roadkill carcasses off the road, I reckon they already do good work. I've been impressed by the fact that on roads with a "hard shoulder" (ie a surfaced, non drivable strip alongside the drivable carriageway- used for emergency access) they don't pull the carcass onto the grass verge, but stop once they get it across the painted line at the edge of the inside lane. They seem to recognise that this is a "barrier" to vehicles.

It is conspicuous that turkey vultures haven't learned this trick.
They expend enormous energy flying off the road, and back, whenever a car comes by, for the sake of a flattened squirrel.

You'd think by now, they would have picked up a few tricks, observing crows.
Perhaps they have a religious commitment to their niche, and simply can't adjust to the relatively new and bountiful road kill phenomena.

[bruto]

Termites have great potential, imho, for exploitation, or symbiosis. We mostly concentrate on killing them, yet, with something like an artificial colony chamber, they could provide many services.

I've often wondered if raccoons could be domesticated. There's a lot of tasks that they could do well, with their awesome climbing abilities and their manual dexterity.

Geese are sometimes used to weed gardens. Their are other animals that would till and fertilize a garden. Goats are used to prepare plots of land for certain uses.
This is the tip of the iceberg, as per the possibilities.

Its interesting that crows are (evidently) quite willing to work for their food...in a way that benefits us.

Is there no such thing as a domesticated goose?

All animals were wild once, and sure enough, people tamed them, bred them and put them to work. Dogs, geese, cows, horses, silkworms and bees, all were wild. By some standards reindeer still are. We may have done the easiest ones already, but the principle certainly is nothing new!