Rumsfeld prediction

[varwoche]

Gone within 60 days.

[fishbob]

Why are you predicting a Rumsfeld eviction? Something to do with the mistreatment of prisoners?

[varwoche]

Originally posted by fishbob
Why are you predicting a Rumsfeld eviction? Something to do with the mistreatment of prisoners? Yes.

add: Plus, he was already a political liability.

[The idea]

Doesn't he prefer to be known as "Rummy"?

[subgenius]

Funny how if the scandals come so fast and furious no one can keep up with them.
Bushie is blaming Rummy behind the scenes (leak, leak) for not keeping him fully advised (even though he admittedly doesn't read the papers and relies on summaries from a small circle of advisors).
I thought the thread was going to be about Rummy dummy's predictions about how good the war was going to go.

[fishbob]

add: Plus, he was already a political liability.
Bush opening his mouth in public is a political liability too, but he is not going to put a sock in it. Betcha a nickel Rummy stays more than 60 days.

[subgenius]

Rumsfeld Chastised by President for His Handling of Iraq Scandal
By ELISABETH BUMILLER and RICHARD W. STEVENSON

Published: May 6, 2004


WASHINGTON, May 5 — President Bush on Wednesday chastised his defense secretary, Donald H. Rumsfeld, for Mr. Rumsfeld's handling of a scandal over the American abuse of Iraqis held at a notorious prison in Baghdad, White House officials said.

The disclosures by the White House officials, under authorization from Mr. Bush, were an extraordinary display of finger-pointing in an administration led by a man who puts a high premium on order and loyalty. The officials said the president had expressed his displeasure to Mr. Rumsfeld in an Oval Office meeting because of Mr. Rumsfeld's failure to tell Mr. Bush about photographs of the abuse, which have enraged the Arab world.
...
Still, Mr. Rumsfeld faced increasingly restive Republicans on Capitol Hill, who were angry that the defense secretary told them nothing about the photographs, which showed Iraqis stripped of their clothes, piled on top of one another and in positions that appeared to simulate sexual acts, when he briefed them last Wednesday, the same day that "60 Minutes II" broadcast its story.

"No member of the Senate had any clue," said Senator Richard G. Lugar, the Indiana Republican who is chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee. "This is entirely unacceptable. I think it's a total washout as far as communications, and it has to be rectified."

Democrats were even more caustic. Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, the top Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, stopped just short of calling for Mr. Rumsfeld's resignation, saying that if the blame went all the way to Mr. Rumsfeld's office, he should step down. "This is a disaster of significant proportions," Mr. Biden said. "It calls for accountability and quickly."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/politics/06CABI.html?th

[fishbob]

"No member of the Senate had any clue," said Senator Richard G. Lugar, the Indiana Republican who is chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee. "This is entirely unacceptable. I think it's a total washout as far as communications, and it has to be rectified." I know that this is not in context, but Lugar appears to be saying that:
1) All Senators are clueless
2) The washout in communications is what is unacceptable and what needs to be fixed.

Senator Joseph R. Biden . . . . stopped just short of calling for Mr. Rumsfeld's resignation, saying that if the blame went all the way to Mr. Rumsfeld's office, he should step down. "This is a disaster of significant proportions," Mr. Biden said. "It calls for accountability and quickly."

Also missing some context, was Biden also talking about the failure in communications or was he talking about the abuse of prisoners?

[Luke T.]

Bush can't play the "don't change horses in midstream" argument for keeping him in office during the war on terror if he dismissess Rumsfeld midstream.

[Luke T.]

Amplifying my last point, it is too close to the election to shake up the cabinet.

Additional point. So far, no one else has been dismissed from military service over the prisoner abuse.

[Charlie Monoxide]

What does it matter? Bush will be gone in 6 months (err actually next January) anyway?

Charlie (Rumsfield and coke) Monoxide

[varwoche]

Originally posted by fishbob

Betcha a nickel Rummy stays more than 60 days. Make it a dinner, timed for the copper river run. ;)

[varwoche]

I neglected to mention... In deference to recently posted analysis of on/off topic content vis-a-vis jref mission -- this prediction is based on psychic powers.

[c0rbin]

I think I agree with LukeT.

Nothing major will happen until after they ahve secured the white house.

The mantra I hear anytime I listen to "conservative" radio is that Kerry is a waffler, Kerry can't stay the course.

I think the Administration would avoid doing so until it crossed the finishe line, so to speak.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by c0rbin
I think I agree with LukeT.

Nothing major will happen until after they ahve secured the white house.

The mantra I hear anytime I listen to "conservative" radio is that Kerry is a waffler, Kerry can't stay the course.

I think the Administration would avoid doing so until it crossed the finishe line, so to speak.
Ya dance with the one what brung ya.

[subgenius]

O'Reilly's an idiot too he's just not as callous and mean as Rush:

"O'REILLY: No, there's no question about it. And there's no question. There's no justification for it. But how do you wind up in a prison if you're just innocent and didn't do anything? See, our commanders and our embedded reporters tell me that they're way too busy to be rounding up guys in the marketplace and throwing them into prison.

So I'm going to dispute your contention that we had a lot of people in there with just no rap sheets at all, who were just picked up for no reason at all. The people who were in the prison were suspected of being either Al Qaeda or terrorists who were killing Americans and knew something about it.

HERSH: The problem is that it isn't my contention. It's the contention of Maj. Gen. Taguba, who was appointed by General Sanchez to do the investigation.

It's his contention, in his report, that more than 60 percent of the people in that prison, detainees, civilians, had nothing to do with the war effort.

O'REILLY: How did they get there then? Because I...

HERSH: Because how do they get into the prison?

I'll tell you how they get there. You bust the guy that doesn't have anything to do. You humiliate him. You break him down. You interrogate him. He gives up the name of you want to know who is an insurgent, who is Al Qaeda? He gives up any name he knows. "
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118955,00.html

In case you're in the "they got what's coming to them" camp.

[corplinx]

The democrats on capitol hill declared they wanted Rumsfeld out....... For not revealing the photos sooner? HA. These guys are so weak right now, its empty suit central on capitol hill.

[tamiO]

Quite a huffy day in the House. Rangel of New York left the podium today declaring he was going to go file impeachment papers.

When questioned today, President Bush said Rumsfeld would remain a member of his cabinet.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by corplinx
The democrats on capitol hill declared they wanted Rumsfeld out....... For not revealing the photos sooner? HA. These guys are so weak right now, its empty suit central on capitol hill.
Ignore the fact that Bush is pissed that he (supposedly) wasn't informed by Rum, and that he said he's sickened by the torture, which you and Rush characterize as frat pranks.

Oh yeah, the dems are straining for any issue, there's nothing here, move along. Interesting world.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by corplinx
The democrats on capitol hill declared they wanted Rumsfeld out....... For not revealing the photos sooner? HA. These guys are so weak right now, its empty suit central on capitol hill.

There have been calls for his resignation months ago. They are upset that he didn't properly equip the troops. 25% of our men who have been killed were killed because they lacked proper protection gear.

Rumsfeld came to the House floor and didn't mention the little problem with the prison. Twice, I believe.

I can see his side. He would want to keep that a secret as long as he could. I am sure he wishes it never happened. It has put our men in "harm's way."

I have no idea whether he will stay or go. I would have said he would resign, until I heard the President say he would remain on his cabinet. I did notice that the President didn't deliver the answer in a strong manner, he seemed caught off guard and unsure.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by subgenius
Ignore the fact that Bush is pissed that he (supposedly) wasn't informed by Rum, and that he said he's sickened by the torture, which you and Rush characterize as frat pranks.Hasn't he (Dubya) been backpedaling a tiny bit today, claiming he isn't (so) pissed after all?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by subgenius

Ignore the fact that Bush is pissed that he (supposedly) wasn't informed by Rum, and that he said he's sickened by the torture, which you and Rush characterize as frat pranks.

Oh yeah, the dems are straining for any issue, there's nothing here, move along. Interesting world.

You are so funny Sub. I said the human pyramind photo looked like hell week at an american frat. I never said being sodomized was a frat prank. You don't have to put words in my mouth to try to derail rational arguement. Also, there is a big difference between a frat initiation and being humiliated in a prison. The frat members (at the risk of being bullied and stygmatized for the rest of their college years) can always pull out of the hazing.

So what if Bush is pissed? Its a military matter and the military is handling it. If he wants to be the CEO pres who delegates matters and tries not to micromanage, then he only has himself to blame.

I am not ignoring any facts, I just don't respond like a reactionary as you do.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by corplinx
So what if Bush is pissed? Its a military matter and the military is handling it. If he wants to be the CEO pres who delegates matters and tries not to micromanage, then he only has himself to blame. If I believe Rumsfeld knew about the 'problem' and Dubya wasn't told, I can clearly see why the president was pissed.

How can you manage or micro-manage something you're not told about?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Bjorn
If I believe Rumsfeld knew about the 'problem' and Dubya wasn't told, I can clearly see why the president was pissed.

How can you manage or micro-manage something you're not told about?

That might be the case. I am just pointing out some simple alternatives versus the "Rummy was actively hiding the information".
I am perfectly open to the fact that Rummy may have actively hidden the photos, whether because he was hoping noone would know or because he wanted to try to have more facts before he went forward. Obviously these photos have stirred such a reaction that properly investigating it would be impossible once they were public. You don.t want simple military matters to become a witchhunt.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by corplinx


You are so funny Sub. I said the human pyramind photo looked like hell week at an american frat. I never said being sodomized was a frat prank. You don't have to put words in my mouth to try to derail rational arguement. Also, there is a big difference between a frat initiation and being humiliated in a prison. The frat members (at the risk of being bullied and stygmatized for the rest of their college years) can always pull out of the hazing.

So what if Bush is pissed? Its a military matter and the military is handling it. If he wants to be the CEO pres who delegates matters and tries not to micromanage, then he only has himself to blame.

I am not ignoring any facts, I just don't respond like a reactionary as you do.

"Reactionary" interesting choice of slurs.
Believe me I tried to make sense of your rush reference on the subject and couldn't understand it (remind us again of how you characterized Upchurch's posts). I am sorry if I got your position wrong.
Its a military matter? So he's no longer commander in chief? I musta missed something.
Any reference to a frat hazing by the way is absurd in the extreme. You pledging for the Abu Ghraid frat?

I gotta admit I don't understand your present post: "So what if Bush is pissed? Its a military matter and the military is handling it. If he wants to be the CEO pres who delegates matters and tries not to micromanage, then he only has himself to blame."
What is your point? Is it the military's fault, Bush's, nobody's, what?
Remember, I'm no genius, so you have to splain it in terms that even someone like me can understand.

[subgenius]

"Simple military matters to become a witchhunt"
You gotta be kidding. You do have some idea of the global ramifications of these simple military matters, right?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by subgenius


"Reactionary" interesting choice of slurs.


Its not a slur, its a fact demonstrated by a pattern of behavior. Just look at the last 50 threads you started.

[zakur]

Bush Says Rumsfeld Will 'Stay in My Cabinet' (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=5064716&section=news)

[fishbob]

Make it a dinner, timed for the copper river run. Wait a minute - If you win I owe you a salmon dinner. If I win Rummy stays in office? What kind of deal is that?

[subgenius]

Originally posted by corplinx


Its not a slur, its a fact demonstrated by a pattern of behavior. Just look at the last 50 threads you started.
I must say, at this point, you're an i****.
"Revolutionary communist"
"Propaganda Minister for the DNC" or something like that would make more sense...."Reactionary" is just another projection on your part....just another "witty nonchallance" on your part that takes very little of the hard work of actual thinking...
You really don't have any idea of what "reactionary" means do you?

[varwoche]

You read it here first.

As a reminder, this thread predicts what will occur, but is not taking a stand on what should occur.

[Ladewig]

"O'REILLY: No, there's no question about it. And there's no question. There's no justification for it. But how do you wind up in a prison if you're just innocent and didn't do anything? See, our commanders and our embedded reporters tell me that they're way too busy to be rounding up guys in the marketplace and throwing them into prison.

So I'm going to dispute your contention that we had a lot of people in there with just no rap sheets at all, who were just picked up for no reason at all. The people who were in the prison were suspected of being either Al Qaeda or terrorists who were killing Americans and knew something about it.

The U.S. military is "too busy" to arrest innocent people? WTF, does this guy even listen to what he is saing?

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by varwoche
I neglected to mention... In deference to recently posted analysis of on/off topic content vis-a-vis jref mission -- this prediction is based on psychic powers.
I guess Rummy's is safe then. :D

[nemo]

With the latest scandal about ignoring the Geneva Convention, Rumsfeld should go, must go, and will go.

[davefoc]

I think Rumsfeld should go.

I don't think he will go.

I think Varwoched is thinking that at some point the Bush administration will do what is right for the country and not what the Bush administration thinks is right politically.

I doubt it. From the drug bill to the bizarre and immoral shift towards Sharon the Bush administration is putting forth a full out effort to get reelected and is ignoring the best interests of the country. I think the Bush administration has put their finger in the air and decided that they have a better chance of getting elected if they don't fire Rumsfeld. So they won't.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by davefoc
I think Rumsfeld should go.
I think Varwoched is thinking that at some point the Bush administration will do what is right for the country and not what the Bush administration thinks is right politically.

Exactly the opposite. The reason I predict he will be dumped is because of the election vis-a-vis withering public support for the war.

[davefoc]

OK, but someplace I heard that 70% of the country doesn't think he should go and with that firing him right now doesn't look politically expedient.

If stuff gets worse with respect to Iraq firing Rumsfeld won't help much for Bush since if Rumsfeld was a problem with regard to that the country might judge he should have been fired sooner.

If stuff gets worse with respect to the prison scandals the general support for Rumsfeld might go down, but right now I have checked Rumsfeld's astrology chart, talked to two or three of his dead ancestors and used my ouija board and they all are clearly showing that Rumsfeld will still be secretary of defense in 60 days. So right now I can only disagree with you based on a scientific review of the facts.

[Nasarius]

Originally posted by davefoc
OK, but someplace I heard that 70% of the country doesn't think he should go and with that firing him right now doesn't look politically expedient.

A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll showed job approval for Rumsfeld at 46%, down from 71% a year ago. But asked whether he should resign, 64% of poll respondents said no.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-05-10-bush-rumsfeld_x.htm

(edit) The poll results:
http://www.gallup.com/content/default.aspx?ci=11668&pg=4

31% said he should resign

[dsm]

Originally posted by varwoche

Exactly the opposite. The reason I predict he will be dumped is because of the election vis-a-vis withering public support for the war.

Given what happened to O'Neill and Clarke, dumping Rummy may solidify in the minds of many that Bush really knew about what was going on and this is just a tactic to cover his a**...

[varwoche]

Originally posted by dsm
Given what happened to O'Neill and Clarke, dumping Rummy may solidify in the minds of many that Bush really knew about what was going on and this is just a tactic to cover his a**...
Except that Rummy will bow out in honorable fashion because "the buck stops here" or "for the good of the country" or the like.

[Zombified]

Rumsfeld will be in office as long as W. is.

These are not the sort of people to admit mistakes. They'll pretend everything is going just fine when they can, blame other people when they have to, and accuse any and every critic of being politically motivated.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Zombified
Rumsfeld will be in office as long as W. is.

These are not the sort of people to admit mistakes. They'll pretend everything is going just fine when they can, blame other people when they have to, and accuse any and every critic of being politically motivated.
You're right, they don't admit mistakes because they are so fearful of the political ramifications. Even though they change course all the time for political purposes.
And the inside word is we'll be getting out soon (thankfully), and they will say the point (of Rumsfeld's departure) is moot.
The six (or seven) will be blamed for losing the war, and Bush's polls will jump.
The problem (?) is no one who didn't vote for him last time will vote for him this time, and many who did will stay home.
Watch out for those e-voting machines.
OK?

[varwoche]

It's been 30 days and no, I'm not spending my jref million bucks just yet.

Besides, if Bush keeps dropping in the polls, they may want to dump Cheney, with heart condition as handy excuse, and put Guiliani on the ticket (he says wigglingly).

Tenet sealed the doom of this prediction actually.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by varwoche
It's been 30 days and no, I'm not spending my jref million bucks just yet.

Besides, if Bush keeps dropping in the polls, they may want to dump Cheney, with heart condition as handy excuse, and put Guiliani on the ticket (he says wigglingly).

Tenet sealed the doom of this prediction actually.

Hey, that's pretty close. Maybe you'll qualify for 10% of the prize, sort of a parting gift.

[fishbob]

ME - on May 5: Betcha a nickel Rummy stays more than 60 days.
Varwoche - June 15: It's been 30 days and no, I'm not spending my jref million bucks just yet.

Trying to wiggle out of a bet? It has been 41 days.

This will be the easiest money I ever won, and on a bet I wanted to lose.

It seems to me that Bush is speaking in public more, but saying less. Also seems that Rummy and Cheney and Ashcroft are seen in public lot less and speaking hardly at all.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by fishbob
ME - on May 5:
Varwoche - June 15:

Trying to wiggle out of a bet? It has been 41 days.

This will be the easiest money I ever won, and on a bet I wanted to lose.

Damn, busted trying to shrink time.

There's 19 days to go -- not impossible. Willing to settle now for .04 on the nickel?

Do you take paypal?

[zakur]

More bad news for Rummy:

Rumsfeld order prisoner hidden from Red Cross (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=agQIaEsCR420&refer=us)It's the first direct link between Rumsfeld and possible violations of prisoner rights in Iraq...

[shemp]

Originally posted by Blue Monk


Hey, that's pretty close. Maybe you'll qualify for 10% of the prize, sort of a parting gift.

No, he just gets a home version of the game.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by shemp


No, he just gets a home version of the game.

Oh yeah, the one where the million dollars is in MONOPOLY money.

What a burn.

[Silicon]

Everyone knows the International Red Cross is an al Qaida front.

DUH!



Them's some dangerous people, those ICRC's. Can't trust them.


Because hiding prisoners from people checking on their treatment NEVER caused us problems before.