How many truthers believe

[911kongen]

that terror in Oslo summer 2011 was an inside job? What do you think?

[cjnewson88]

anyone of them who pay attention to the alex jones show, so at least 40% I'd say

[Scott Sommers]

that terror in Oslo summer 2011 was an inside job? What do you think?

Truthers are in general pretty ignorant about what goes on anywhere outside the continental United States. Anything about 9/11 Truth that still exists exists almost completely now as a part of the American Patriot Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_movement). The same could be said for most conspiracy theory that is not related to Jews.

Some may be vaguely aware of the event, having heard something on Alex Jones. And since everything bad is caused by gubbermint, this too must be a gubbermint plot to kill the da' people. But in fact, I doubt most of those people who endorse conspiracy items on national surveys or the people who belong to We Are Change or even the people trolling around the Internet acting like conspiracy freaks even know where Oslo is on a map.

[911kongen]

Well, most truthers believe in 7/7, Madrid and Mumbai-conspiracy? You know same elite that did 911.

[Scott Sommers]

Well, most truthers believe in 7/7, Madrid and Mumbai-conspiracy? You know same elite that did 911.

They'll believe this in the sense that believe all major world leaders must be somehow connected to the NWO, but they won't be able to tell you who anyone is. You've talked to Luke Rudkowski and those guys. Do they strike you as the kind of guys who know anything other than 9/11 Truth rhetoric? Do the Truther freaks that congregate here on the JREF come across like well-informed intellectuals? So where would these informed Truthers be hiding?

[911kongen]

I don't know about informed truthers! :D But still they can be convinced that oslo was an inside job, they just believe it because they have heard it on Alex Jones, or something like that. They normally don't know a great deal about what they believe in. The case here is the norwegian truthers normally DONT believe Oslo was an inside job, but I can see in many forums and that AJ said it was an inside job, so are the norwegian truthers now different from "normal" truthers?

I have not found one norwegian truther that believes oslo was an inside job, but I have not found a truther in other countries that believes it was not an inside job. So is this the norm? Most truthers believe it was an inside job, but not those from Norway?

[Scott Sommers]

I don't know about informed truthers! :D But still they can be convinced that oslo was an inside job, they just believe it because they have heard it on Alex Jones, or something like that. They normally don't know a great deal about what they believe in. The case here is the norwegian truthers normally DONT believe Oslo was an inside job, but I can see in many forums and that AJ said it was an inside job, so are the norwegian truthers now different from "normal" truthers?

I have not found one norwegian truther that believes oslo was an inside job, but I have not found a truther in other countries that believes it was not an inside job. So is this the norm? Most truthers believe it was an inside job, but not those from Norway?

I would say it would have to be. Probably 100% of American Truthers would have no problem with Oslo being 'an Inside Job'. Why would they, if they had heard of it? Almost all of them believe vaccines are part of this, as well.

I can understand from your point of view, 9/11 Truth is an anti-American statement, but from the point of view of American Truthers, it's about a world-wide conspiracy to threaten American power. But even if it doesn't have anything to do with America, if they think it could have been part of this world-wide conspiracy to threaten american culture, then that's proof that it is.

[minnemouse]

Hiya kongen.

I am all to familiar with the Norwegian "truthers" you refer to. And I also wonder why they are so hysterical as to not wanting to admit that if using their own "logic", 22/7 is every bit as much a conspiracy as 911. Somehow I think these guys you refer to are losers thats sitting in their mums basement, and write outrageous stuff just to stir the pot. I tried to ask in the thread in the forum you refer to, to get the most stir crazy of the dudes, to come with points that he means is wrong in the NIST report, but I am sure you read the reply; "the entire report is wrong, cause its based on something that never happened". How the heck do you debate with such morans??And on top of that; they front every possible and impossible theory; no planes+thermite, planes+explosives, no planes+nukes, planes+nukes, no planes+star wars weapons and so on and so on. Thats why I think a few of them only argues for the arguements´ sake, and are only there cause their mums wont let them go out on their own :D I dont believe that these people have jobs or even much of a life outside the internet.

But I think you are doing a good job, Kongen, although I dont know if it helps much. The circular argumentation has gone on for over 70 pages in that thread, and its at least makes me feel like Don Quixote - fighting windmills.

[911kongen]

I would say it would have to be. Probably 100% of American Truthers would have no problem with Oslo being 'an Inside Job'. Why would they, if they had heard of it? Almost all of them believe vaccines are part of this, as well.

I can understand from your point of view, 9/11 Truth is an anti-American statement, but from the point of view of American Truthers, it's about a world-wide conspiracy to threaten American power. But even if it doesn't have anything to do with America, if they think it could have been part of this world-wide conspiracy to threaten american culture, then that's proof that it is.

I think most truthers hate america. Like AJ and Ventura that are saying America is dead. Ventura will only call it the fascist stat of america. They only love a fictional america that existed 100 years ago. That is not america, and that means they hate america, because America 100 years ago is not america now.. They hate everything about america, and can not call them self patriots, but a eery of the american state an society... But then i Know american debunkers probably think most truthers believe in Oslo-inside job.

[911kongen]

Hiya kongen.

I am all to familiar with the Norwegian "truthers" you refer to. And I also wonder why they are so hysterical as to not wanting to admit that if using their own "logic", 22/7 is every bit as much a conspiracy as 911. Somehow I think these guys you refer to are losers thats sitting in their mums basement, and write outrageous stuff just to stir the pot. I tried to ask in the thread in the forum you refer to, to get the most stir crazy of the dudes, to come with points that he means is wrong in the NIST report, but I am sure you read the reply; "the entire report is wrong, cause its based on something that never happened". How the heck do you debate with such morans??And on top of that; they front every possible and impossible theory; no planes+thermite, planes+explosives, no planes+nukes, planes+nukes, no planes+star wars weapons and so on and so on. Thats why I think a few of them only argues for the arguements´ sake, and are only there cause their mums wont let them go out on their own :D I dont believe that these people have jobs or even much of a life outside the internet.

But I think you are doing a good job, Kongen, although I dont know if it helps much. The circular argumentation has gone on for over 70 pages in that thread, and its at least makes me feel like Don Quixote - fighting windmills.

I think some of the people in 911 truth norway has to be sick. It impossible to just have a normal debate with them. Its like they cant communicate...

[R.Mackey]

Truthers are in general pretty ignorant about what goes on anywhere outside the continental United States. Anything about 9/11 Truth that still exists exists almost completely now as a part of the American Patriot Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_movement). The same could be said for most conspiracy theory that is not related to Jews.

This is a good point -- and one that particularly irritates me.

There is a pattern to conspiracy theorists. Many of them are attracted to perfectly worthy causes, but instead of following them rationally, wrap an incredibly complicated, black-or-white, struggle against ultimate evil mindset around them that distorts them beyond recognition.

Example, many Truthers were motivated, in part, by an anti-war sentiment. This is a perfectly good goal, and obviously there were many good arguments against fighting in West Asia. Nanotermites, however, was not one of them. But real activism is difficult. For a certain population of fantasists, it's more fun to make their cause into an episode of The Twilight Zone.

You see the same thing in the "American Patriot Movement." A few, typically historically ignorant people have this strange notion that by rejecting any case law outside the actual text of the Constitution, we'll all channel the spirits of Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton and life will be puppies and flowers forever. It ain't so. The Founding Fathers themselves fought bitterly with each other, even carrying out actual duels. :eek: They also gave us occasional abominations like the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798.

Real patriotism is a lifelong struggle, just like any other form of activism. It's hard work. It also takes an informed perspective and knowledge of the world outside your own basement.

Truthers : peace activists :: "American Patriot Movement" : actual American patriotism.

/soapbox

[Scott Sommers]

I think most truthers hate america. Like AJ and Ventura that are saying America is dead. Ventura will only call it the fascist stat of america. They only love a fictional america that existed 100 years ago. That is not america, and that means they hate america, because America 100 years ago is not america now.. They hate everything about america, and can not call them self patriots, but a eery of the american state an society... But then i Know american debunkers probably think most truthers believe in Oslo-inside job.

There's a long history to this kind of belief system in the USA. A widely known version of it is found in Richard Hofstadter, The Paranoid Style in American Politics, some of which you can find on the Net. Hofstadter is only one interpretation of this problem, but it's interesting and accessible.

[Scott Sommers]

This is a good point -- and one that particularly irritates me.

There is a pattern to conspiracy theorists. Many of them are attracted to perfectly worthy causes, but instead of following them rationally, wrap an incredibly complicated, black-or-white, struggle against ultimate evil mindset around them that distorts them beyond recognition.

Example, many Truthers were motivated, in part, by an anti-war sentiment. This is a perfectly good goal, and obviously there were many good arguments against fighting in West Asia. Nanotermites, however, was not one of them. But real activism is difficult. For a certain population of fantasists, it's more fun to make their cause into an episode of The Twilight Zone.

You see the same thing in the "American Patriot Movement." A few, typically historically ignorant people have this strange notion that by rejecting any case law outside the actual text of the Constitution, we'll all channel the spirits of Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton and life will be puppies and flowers forever. It ain't so. The Founding Fathers themselves fought bitterly with each other, even carrying out actual duels. :eek: They also gave us occasional abominations like the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798.

Real patriotism is a lifelong struggle, just like any other form of activism. It's hard work. It also takes an informed perspective and knowledge of the world outside your own basement.

Truthers : peace activists :: "American Patriot Movement" : actual American patriotism.

/soapbox

I came at this Truther thing from an entirely different point of view than I suspect most of the other people here. I lived in blissful ignorance for most of the history of this event, and was only introduced to it 2009 by a colleague. For the longest time, I had no understanding of 9/11 Truthines the way it's described here on the JREF.

My understanding of 9/11 as related to the American Patriot Movement is empirical. I looked everywhere I could for 9/11 Truth stuff and tried to meet the people who were making these claims. If the two belief systems seem similar, this could be because there are thousands of Truthers who hold both of them simultaneously. This is the origin of Truther support for Ron Paul.

The causal ordering of this relationship is not clear to me. I believe Ron Paul is consciously courting the vote of people with conspiracy beliefs. Why is he doing this? Our very own Sword of Truth has suggested that Paul really is a member of the 9/11 freak show but will not admit it in public because of what he knows it would do to him. This could be. He also could be doing for sake of votes. The mentally ill have votes, as well.

Regardless, the result of this is that Paul uses conspiracy imagery and rhetoric to rally people, some of whom would be diagnosed paranoid schizophrenics, around the idea of the Constitution and patriotism. It has to be a simple message.

[Robrob]

I doubt the CT thing is motivated by any external "hate of America" etc... IMHO, it's an internal issue with the believer. Fear of a scary and random universe.

Psychologists believe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Psychological_origins) that the search for meaning is common in conspiracism and the development of conspiracy theories, and may be powerful enough alone to lead to the first formulating of the idea. Once cognized, confirmation bias and avoidance of cognitive dissonance may reinforce the belief. In a context where a conspiracy theory has become popular within a social group, communal reinforcement may equally play a part.

Humanistic psychologists argue that even if the cabal behind the conspiracy is almost always perceived as hostile there is, often, still an element of reassurance in it, for conspiracy theorists, in part because it is more consoling to think that complications and upheavals in human affairs, at least, are created by human beings rather than factors beyond human control. Belief in such a cabal is a device for reassuring oneself that certain occurrences are not random, but ordered by a human intelligence. This renders such occurrences comprehensible and potentially controllable. If a cabal can be implicated in a sequence of events, there is always the hope, however tenuous, of being able to break the cabal's power – or joining it and exercising some of that power oneself. Finally, belief in the power of such a cabal is an implicit assertion of human dignity – an often unconscious but necessary affirmation that man is not totally helpless, but is responsible, at least in some measure, for his own destiny.

[Scott Sommers]

I doubt the CT thing is motivated by any external "hate of America" etc... IMHO, it's an internal issue with the believer. Fear of a scary and random universe.

Rob, this is cut & paste job from the Great Wiki that's making it's way around the JREF. In fact, there has been very little research on the psychology of conspiracy beliefs. Several papers get cited regularly here, but there is no clear understanding among psychologists about what would motivate these beliefs or the direction of the causal variables that are frequently discussed.

The references used in the Great Wiki are many years old. Goertzel (1994) is a really good study, but it was published long before the 9/11 attacks and belief in it and any of the conspiracies that make up the core of JREF stuff are not addressed by him. In fact, he is directly addressing African-American conspiracies, and these are core of his findings.
There was a strong correlation (r = .44) with minority status (defined as white=1, hispanic=2, black=3) and with black race as a dummy variable (r = .42).
While it's probably true that the variables he associates with conspiracy beliefs, such as anomia, lack of interpersonal trust, and insecurity about employment
continue to explain much of what we see among Truthers, the 9/11 Truth Movement is overwhelming White and American, indicating that something different is happening.

[Robrob]

While it's probably true that the variables he associates with conspiracy beliefs, such as... continue to explain much of what we see among Truthers, the 9/11 Truth Movement is overwhelming White and American, indicating that something different is happening.

Good point. Previous to 9/11 minorities (usually black) might have been the greatest proponents of CT. I recall any number of "Black Muslim" anti-white stories and the "Out of Africa" sun people myths as well. I suppose it's tempting for a disadvantaged minority to seek a comforting scapegoat (in the form of a CT myth). The more recent spate of anti-government (anti-establishment) CT do seem to be mostly spouted by white or at least, non-minority, believers. Of course there was already an undercurrent of this as early as the mid 90's with the NWO/FEMA death camps mythology.

[Scott Sommers]

Good point. Previous to 9/11 minorities (usually black) might have been the greatest proponents of CT. I recall any number of "Black Muslim" anti-white stories and the "Out of Africa" sun people myths as well. I suppose it's tempting for a disadvantaged minority to seek a comforting scapegoat (in the form of a CT myth). The more recent spate of anti-government (anti-establishment) CT do seem to be mostly spouted by white or at least, non-minority, believers. Of course there was already an undercurrent of this as early as the mid 90's with the NWO/FEMA death camps mythology.

You go back to the 1990s and most of the scientific work on conspiracy addressed HIV/AIDS-type-stuff. Some of it is quite interesting and even relevant to an understanding of NWO/911/American identity conspiracy. It even appears on from the national probability surveys of 9/11 conspiracy beliefs that many of the people endorsing the items are coloured Americans.

The interesting thing to me is that you almost never see coloured Americans, Canadians, or Europeans making statements on the Net or public about the conspiracy. And if you do, they're Muslims. How many people in P4T, AE911T, We Are Change, the Youtube conspiracy scene, Scholars for 9/11 Truth, etc do you know to be African-American or even Hispanic?