Gay by choice?

[Lisa Simpson]

Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice".

"For me, it is a choice," Nixon is quoted as saying in a New York Times magazine profile. "I understand that for many people it's not, but for me it's a choice, and you don't get to define my gayness for me." The 45-year-old actress is engaged to long-time partner Christine Marinoni, who gave birth to their son Max last year. Prior to their relationship, Nixon, who is currently sporting a bald head for a Broadway role, was in a 15-year relationship with Danny Mozes, with whom she Has two children.

Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.

[kerikiwi]

Being sexually active is a choice.
I just do not believe being gay can be chosen or unchosen. You either are or you are not

[AdMan]

Are anyone but the religious conservatives or the deeply ignorant (they may overlap) still seriously arguing that sexual orientation is a choice?

[JoeyDonuts]

I think the research shows that it's somewhere between the invisible points of "born this way" and "developmental/experiential" factor.

Then again, most psychology research is a little...what's the word?

[Tsukasa Buddha]

This has been making the rounds, and it is quite irritating. Basically she is conflating identity with orientation. She is bisexual in orientation, but claims choice in her "gay identity".

It’s so not fudging. It’s so not. I think for gay people who feel 100 percent gay, it doesn’t make any sense. And for straight people who feel 100 percent straight, it doesn’t make any sense. I don’t pull out the “bisexual” word because nobody likes the bisexuals. Everybody likes to dump on the bisexuals.

But it is the “B” in LGBT.

CN: I know. But we get no respect.

You just said “we,” so you must self-identify as one.

I just don’t like to pull out that word.

Linky. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/01/24/cynthia-nixon-discusses-her-role-in-wit-her-cancer-bisexuality-and-her-kids.html)

But this debate is really very dull. The only reason people are so hard up about it not being a choice is in reaction to homophobes relying on it being a choice to call it immoral. Outside of that context, saying that I was "born this way" is an impotent argument.

Anyway, there are people who claim fluid sexuality, but this person isn't one of them. She has internalised bi-phobia. She claims that sticking to "it's not a choice" is caving to bigots.

Reading the comments on the gay sites I frequent is quite depressing. There seems to be a movement afoot that we "can't define other's sexuality". Whatever the hell that means in this context. It is like Nixon has crafted the most misunderstand-able way she could image to call herself bisexual. Sure, she has "the right to define her sexuality as she sees it", but the rest of us are using a different dictionary.

This debate usually comes up in Queer discussions, and whether a straight person could be queer. I say, "No, WTF are you talking about?" But apparently there is some philosophical stuff about identity behind it.

[Gazpacho]

Why not just call yourself bisexual?
Because that wouldn't communicate what she means to say.
Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree.
The presentation of sexuality as necessarily inborn plays into the hands of conservatives. It encourages them to discuss homosexuality in terms of biological degeneracy.

[TheAnachronism]

I find nothing wrong with Cynthia Nixon speaking about the subjective experience of her own sexuality for herself. I see no reason that some people couldn't experience their sexuality as being easily manipulated by personal will or something, depending on the parameters used for the definition of "choice" in this context. But why is everyone always in such a rush to generalize from personal experiences, to assume that their experience is in any way universal? At least she added the caveat of "for me" and "I understand that for many people it's not."

There is no reason to suppose, in my view, that Cynthia Nixon's views of her own sexuality are in any way more valuable anecdotes or data points than mine or yours or anyone else's.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I find nothing wrong with Cynthia Nixon speaking about the subjective experience of her own sexuality for herself. I see no reason that some people couldn't experience their sexuality as being easily manipulated by personal will or something, depending on the parameters used for the definition of "choice" in this context. But why is everyone always in such a rush to generalize from personal experiences, to assume that their experience is in any way universal? At least she added the caveat of "for me" and "I understand that for many people it's not."

There is no reason to suppose, in my view, that Cynthia Nixon's views of her own sexuality are in any way more valuable anecdotes or data points than mine or yours or anyone else's.

Do you choose to like [insert favourite food]? How does one choose an orientation? And of course there is the majority of scientific research on the matter and the statements of numerous psych association. I have heard of a few reports showing a few cases of fluidity, but there just hasn't been enough. Also, fluidity =/= choice.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Because that wouldn't communicate what she means to say.

The presentation of sexuality as necessarily inborn plays into the hands of conservatives. It encourages them to discuss homosexuality in terms of biological degeneracy.

But it counters the "choosing sin" argument, so you really get nowhere no matter which is true :p .

And I'm not sure she knows what she is communicating herself. She is intentionally choosing an identity that is not congruent with her personal experience of orientation, and doing a very poor job of explaining.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Here is something the APA noted when it was looking into re-orientation therapy:

The task force also drew a distinction between sexual orientation and sexual orientation identity, said Glassgold, noting that some people who are attracted to members of their own sex choose to identify themselves as heterosexuals.

"There really is no evidence that orientation can change, [or that you can change] who you're attracted to or who you fall in love with," she said.

Linky. (http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/10/orientation.aspx)

I think this is the key here. People choose identities that don't fit their unchosen orientation.

[Pardalis]

I choose to be depressed.

[TheAnachronism]

Do you choose to like [insert favourite food]? How does one choose an orientation? And of course there is the majority of scientific research on the matter and the statements of numerous psych association. I have heard of a few reports showing a few cases of fluidity, but there just hasn't been enough. Also, fluidity =/= choice.

I think you misunderstand my perspective. I have stated elsewhere that I am in a same-sex relationship, and I would consider myself gay or homosexual if pressed. I could not, under any of the definitions of "choice," say that I chose to be attracted to other men and not to females; indeed, Cynthia Nixon's perspective on "choice" with regards to her sexuality is not one that I share, and I am inclined to believe that however CN experiences sexual or romantic attraction, choice does not play as large a role as she seems to express. However, my point is just that such a statement should not be damning to people who do experience same-sex attraction or even opposite-sex attraction; Cynthia Nixon cannot experience anyone else's sexuality and is therefore no more an authority on how other people feel than she is on what sorts of foods I enjoy.

[Kopji]

I don't see any reason teh gay people can't have shallow opportunist publicity seeking actors to call their very own jes like us straights. :) Hug them and love them and make them your very own!

[ponderingturtle]

Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice".



Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.

The thing here is that calling someone gay means many different things. It is a label for behavior, for attraction and for identity. So while a bisexual attraction pattern might fit her she might be uncomfortable with a bisexual identity.

Of course we do not say people who realize they are gay after they are married to an opposite sex partner are really bi.

[ponderingturtle]

But it counters the "choosing sin" argument, so you really get nowhere no matter which is true :p .

And I'm not sure she knows what she is communicating herself. She is intentionally choosing an identity that is not congruent with her personal experience of orientation, and doing a very poor job of explaining.

And here you seem to be making assumptions about her personal experience that may or may not be true.

[arthwollipot]

I'm sure that some people who are already bisexual or bicurious can choose to enter into a same sex relationship. I know I did.

In the end it didn't work out for me, but I'm still open to the possibility.

[ponderingturtle]

Here is something the APA noted when it was looking into re-orientation therapy:



Linky. (http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/10/orientation.aspx)

I think this is the key here. People choose identities that don't fit their unchosen orientation.

The issue here is how broad is bisexual. It can be defined so narrowly that no one fits into it or so broadly that just about anyone does. I do not think that either extreme is useful in describing people.

Do you call Dan Savage a lier when he calls himself gay as he admits to heterosexual acts in his sexual history. This reminds me of the arguments about Willow on Buffy being bi or gay.

[IDB87]

If someone is bisexual, but they have a higher attraction to the same sex and decide to pursue it indefinitely rather than the other, does that constitute gay by choice?

Doesn't ruin the show for me either way :o

[Ethan Thane Athen]

The idea of choice is an interesting one as two of my daughter's friends have just 'decided' they're bi-sexual and the view of my daughter and her friends is that this is now a common thing amongst their generation and is generally done in an attempt to be 'more interesting'. It's almost a fashion thing now - in their minds.

NB Anecdotes are not evidence etc, I just find it interesting how, in the space of a couple of generations, homo / bi sexuality has seemingly gone from stigma, to accepted, to desirable. Obviously with these particular individuals it may just be the flowering of previously suppressed inclinations but they had no reason to suppress them previously and, knowing the individuals I tend to side with my daughter's interpretation.

[Brown]

We may have our tastes and be born with them, but we may also have the power to choose to modify them.

Most people might agree with this proposition if we were talking about food and drink. Why might it not apply to sexual tastes as well?

[Caper]

I think it's different for women. I think many women can just kind of choose it. Not the lesbians that look like Chaz Bono.... I think gay men are different... are think they are more born that way.

BTW.... I have seen men I would have never guessed that they were gay. But is there the opposite? The ultra effeminate flaming male that is straight?

[arthwollipot]

Huh. That's interesting. I too have observed that many young women these days are going gay or at least bisexual for their first sexual experiences. I don't see young males doing the same. Maybe in about twenty years we'll have caught up.

[arthwollipot]

BTW.... I have seen men I would have never guessed that they were gay. But is there the opposite? The ultra effeminate flaming male that is straight?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Proops

[IDB87]

Huh. That's interesting. I too have observed that many young women these days are going gay or at least bisexual for their first sexual experiences. I don't see young males doing the same. Maybe in about twenty years we'll have caught up.

I know of several guys that I grew up with who had gay experiences but didn't talk about it. It's just as common with men, I'd wager, but the social stigma of guys being gay ["ick"] opposed to girls being gay ["hawt"] prevents men from openly talking about.

[sgtbaker]

I know of several guys that I grew up with who had gay experiences but didn't talk about it. It's just as common with men, I'd wager, but the social stigma of guys being gay ["ick"] opposed to girls being gay ["hawt"] prevents men from openly talking about.

I would think the same thing, although my high school daughter says that the quickest way for a guy to get himelf surrounded by girls is to come out as either bi or gay.

[ponderingturtle]

The idea of choice is an interesting one as two of my daughter's friends have just 'decided' they're bi-sexual and the view of my daughter and her friends is that this is now a common thing amongst their generation and is generally done in an attempt to be 'more interesting'. It's almost a fashion thing now - in their minds.

NB Anecdotes are not evidence etc, I just find it interesting how, in the space of a couple of generations, homo / bi sexuality has seemingly gone from stigma, to accepted, to desirable. Obviously with these particular individuals it may just be the flowering of previously suppressed inclinations but they had no reason to suppress them previously and, knowing the individuals I tend to side with my daughter's interpretation.

There is nothing new about this. See the band Queen and how the straight members wanted to be seen as bi. Then there are the homosexual teens not yet comfortable with labeling themselves as gay.

It is an interesting contrast with the actress who is rejecting bi for gay as well.

[Philosaur]

Keep in mind that she was in a committed heterosexual relationship with a man, and has two kids with him. If she says that she was born gay, then she gets to explain to her kids (or not explain, which is worse, I think) why she spent 15 years with someone she wasn't attracted to--and had two children with him! I would think this would push her to embrace her bisexuality, but for whatever reason she's denying (or down-playing) it publicly. Maybe she sees some stigma there; maybe some people expect bisexuals to be more promiscuous because their pool of potential partners is doubled. <-- (Someone told me this once...)

Quick caveat: I don't know anything about her history of public comments regarding hers or anyone else's sexuality. That being said, if she doesn't want to be in the fight, or doesn't espouse the "correct" ideas (i.e. homosexuality is not a choice), then that's her business. If she wants to say that for her it's a choice, I don't see how anyone in the LGBT community can fault her for it. It's unsavory, like people are trying to commandeer her sexuality to further their cause.

[Lamuella]

I'm racking my brains, but I can't remember the moment I chose my sexual orientation. I don't remember really thinking about attraction of this kind very much before feeling it. I just remember catching sight of particular ladies on TV and thinking they were lovely (Ace in Doctor Who was an early favourite), and then getting a huge crush on a girl at school.

I definitely remember the points where I chose to act on this orientation (asking the girl I had a crush on to dance at a school disco), but I didn't choose to be attracted to women, and I couldn't choose to stop if I wanted to.

Cynthis Nixon, from what I have seen, feels attraction to men and women. She says she is "gay by choice", and by this seems to mean that she acts on attraction to women but not on attraction to men. That makes sense to me, but it does raise the question of whether we say someone is gay/straight/bisexual based on who they are attracted to or what they do about it.

[RobDegraves]

I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Let's see... I ask myself "Am I sexually attracted to men?" Nope. Ergo I am not gay.

It's not really hard to understand that it probably works in reverse as well. If I was gay I could ask "Am I sexually attracted to women?" If it's nope, I'm likely gay.

If the answer is yes in both, I'm bi-sexual.

The hard part sometimes is asking that question devoid of other factors... social, religious, cultural, etc. However, it is still fairly obvious that it is a choice in only one of those circumstances.

[RockNroll]

If we could magically choose our sexual orientation, I'd be bisexual.

Hell, I tried. Oh, how I tried! But it didn't work.

[Noztradamus]

We may have our tastes and be born with them, but we may also have the power to choose to modify them.

Most people might agree with this proposition if we were talking about food and drink. Why might it not apply to sexual tastes as well?

I can accept that some people who are omnivorous may choose to live as vegans.

[Cleon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Proops

Spooky. I thought the exact same thing.

[Caper]

If we could magically choose our sexual orientation, I'd be bisexual.

Hell, I tried. Oh, how I tried! But it didn't work.

Are you male or female? Did you try because you didn't want to be gay? or wanted to try being gay?

[joobz]

From a gay rights and societal acceptance perspective, I think the "Choice/not a choice" argument does not help anyone.

Is Rape any less immoral if the rapist doesn't "choose" to be a rapist?
Is pedophilia any less immoral if the pedophile doesn't "choose" to be a pedophile?

The reason these two actions are immoral is because it has forced an action on someone who did not consent or is psychologically unable/unprepared to offer consent. Further, these actions result in well established psychological damage to the victims.

On the contrary, gay/bi sex/relationships between consenting adults doesn't rely upon forcing one into something against their. From this view, choice doesn't even enter into it. A gay man can CHOOSE to have straight sex and it wouldn't be a problem. (or the reverse)
Further, there is no indication that day/bi relationships/sex acts result in psychological damage to the participants. In fact, the persecution of these individuals is the greatest cause of psychological damage. From this perspective, I would argue that anti-gay attitudes is closer in form (but certainly NOT the degree or magnitude) to the immorality of rape/pedophilia than gay/bi sex is.
1.) Anti gay rhetoric works against the consenting will of a individual, resulting in a victimization.
2.) The persecution of the victim results in long lasting psychological damage.

[Noztradamus]

Spooky. I thought the exact same thing.

Are you sure that you are in the right forum? At best that's no more than coincidence, more likely an expected response from a shared cultural background, nothing to do with woo. :D

[crimresearch]

Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice".



Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.
But what's the use of being gay if you can't tell other people that they're doing it all wrong? ;-}

[RockNroll]

Are you male or female? Did you try because you didn't want to be gay? or wanted to try being gay?

Male heterosexual. I wasn't trying to be gay, just wanted to see if I could double my pool of potential sex partners by enjoying guys as well as gals. Turns out I couldn't just make myself like guys through sheer force of will :)

[Complexity]

While I don't think being gay is a choice, I do think she has every right and an obligation to speak the truth about how she perceives being gay in her own experience.

How this might be used or misused by others shouldn't be relevant.

[Crossbow]

Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice".



Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.

Unfortunately, quite a few people have trouble clearly defining their sexuality since they are rather unlcear about the issue themselves: and this case is a good example of that very behavior.

[crimresearch]

Unfortunately, quite a few people have trouble clearly defining their sexuality since they are rather unlcear about the issue themselves: and this case is a good example of that very behavior.
What behavior? Marrying her long time partner and mother of their child is 'unclear'?

'Unclear' would be letting people bully her into claiming something she doesn't identify as.

[whatthebutlersaw]

Spooky. I thought the exact same thing.

...and he makes no case for it.





*loves Greg Proops*

[Crossbow]

What behavior? Marrying her long time partner and mother of their child is 'unclear'?

'Unclear' would be letting people bully her into claiming something she doesn't identify as.

Thanks for you question, but I since I doubt that you would understand my reply, then I will not bother to post one.

[Sledge]

While I don't think being gay is a choice, I do think she has every right and an obligation to speak the truth about how she perceives being gay in her own experience.

How this might be used or misused by others shouldn't be relevant.

Indeed. And let's face it, religious conservatives are going to misrepresent anything to make their case. If Cynthia Nixon said she knew she was gay for as long as she could remember, the ever-forgiving religious types would shout about how homosexuality is a defect to be cured and that the immoral queers are using straight people for their own ends.

Also: Greg Proops? Really? My thought was Chip Esten.

[Darat]

Male heterosexual. I wasn't trying to be gay, just wanted to see if I could double my pool of potential sex partners by enjoying guys as well as gals. Turns out I couldn't just make myself like guys through sheer force of will :)

Oh you just haven't met the right guy yet!





;)

[Darat]

Indeed. And let's face it, religious conservatives are going to misrepresent anything to make their case. If Cynthia Nixon said she knew she was gay for as long as she could remember, the ever-forgiving religious types would shout about how homosexuality is a defect to be cured and that the immoral queers are using straight people for their own ends.

Also: Greg Proops? Really? My thought was Chip Esten.

No idea who he is but I did a quick Wiki look-up and he went to "College of William and Mary" - how much gayer can you get than a college named "College of William and Mary"!

[crimresearch]

Thanks for you question, but I since I doubt that you would understand my reply, then I will not bother to post one.
Yeah, how would a gay man possibly understand any points about being gay? (rolleyes)

[Tsukasa Buddha]

What behavior? Marrying her long time partner and mother of their child is 'unclear'?

'Unclear' would be letting people bully her into claiming something she doesn't identify as.

"Unclear" would be choosing an identity because she admits she doesn't want the identity of her orientation.

[Lamuella]

...and he makes no case for it.





*loves Greg Proops*

He's probably the only straight male in the world whose curse of choice is "Kittens McTavish!"

[Tsukasa Buddha]

The issue here is how broad is bisexual. It can be defined so narrowly that no one fits into it or so broadly that just about anyone does. I do not think that either extreme is useful in describing people.

Do you call Dan Savage a lier when he calls himself gay as he admits to heterosexual acts in his sexual history. This reminds me of the arguments about Willow on Buffy being bi or gay.

And here you seem to be making assumptions about her personal experience that may or may not be true.

She said herself she doesn't want to be labelled bi because people treat bisexuals poorly. She knows she is one of "us", but is playing intellectual games to run away from it because she thinks it gets her social acceptance. I don't need to assume anything, because she outright said it all.

[willhaven]

With regards to what rights gays should be afforded, whether or not homosexuality is a choice is irrelevant.

If it makes them happy and doesn't hurt anyone else, shouldn't they be allowed to do it?

[Baloney]

I think we shouldn't have to publicly announce our sexual orientation/identity for political or publicity reasons; neither should people make sexual orientation/identity a political or publicity issue. Also, my opinion carries more weight with me than yours does.

[Sledge]

No idea who he is but I did a quick Wiki look-up and he went to "College of William and Mary" - how much gayer can you get than a college named "College of William and Mary"!
He's one of the regular fourth guests on the US Whose Line Is It Anyway. Always struck me as far camper than any of the other performers.

I still can't get over the idea that someone is being criticised for how they perceive their own sexuality. It seems like everyone should be free to be what they want, as long as what they want is something we agree with.

[tyr_13]

Spooky. I thought the exact same thing.

Me too! Although I've been working in an improv comedy trope and studying 'successful' improv comedy artists recently...

What's your excuse?

[ponderingturtle]

What behavior? Marrying her long time partner and mother of their child is 'unclear'?

'Unclear' would be letting people bully her into claiming something she doesn't identify as.

Being monogamous does not preclude a bisexual identity or attraction.

[Crossbow]

Yeah, how would a gay man possibly understand any points about being gay? (rolleyes)

If you cannot answer such a question yourself, then I surely cannot answer it for you.

[ponderingturtle]

She said herself she doesn't want to be labelled bi because people treat bisexuals poorly. She knows she is one of "us", but is playing intellectual games to run away from it because she thinks it gets her social acceptance. I don't need to assume anything, because she outright said it all.

The point stands in general regardless of its fit to her.

[Max_mang]

As for effeminate men being straight, years ago I had a friend named Adam. He spoke with a slight lisp, used his hands a lot when talking, was very emotional, ran screaming from spiders and bugs, etc etc...He was ragingly hetero and always had the sexiest girlfriends.

Didn't Richard Simmons have a really hot wife?

[AvalonXQ]

Do you choose to like [insert favourite food]?
Absolutely I do. There are some foods that I've liked since I was little, because of my environment growing up. There are other foods I have chosen to learn to enjoy since then. Ever heard the term "acquired taste"? This is a real thing.

How does one choose an orientation?

Exposure, acclimation, and patterning.
What I'm attracted to changes over the years through repeated exposure in media and in person. Although a lot of my sexual "tastes" were impacted by upbringing and chidhood experience, over time what is liked and disliked can change signficantly by choosing to focus on certain elements, through reward/punishment, and by associating elements with individual traits.
I'll admit that it continually surprises me that it doesn't seem to work this way for everyone else. Gender and gender ideals are culturally defined; our personalities are crafted through years of experiences; what's the problem with recognizing that orientation is an interaction of personality with culture, and therefore certainly changable over time?

[crimresearch]

"Unclear" would be choosing an identity because she admits she doesn't want the identity of her orientation.



Right. And are black people who choose to identify as white actually just 'unclear' as well? Men who choose to identify as women the same? They just don't know their place?

How lucky the world is to have all of you morally superior beings to tell us how we should be, in order to be what we are.


*ETA*: Seriously, I'm surprised at that choice of words coming from you. It really does read as intolerance. which I've come to expect from others, but not from your posts.

[Darat]

Probably not well known outside the UK but folk might find Tom Robinson's self-labelling of being a "gay man who just so happens to be in love with a woman" interesting to read about in light of the opening post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Robinson#Personal_life

[sadhatter]

The idea of choice is an interesting one as two of my daughter's friends have just 'decided' they're bi-sexual and the view of my daughter and her friends is that this is now a common thing amongst their generation and is generally done in an attempt to be 'more interesting'. It's almost a fashion thing now - in their minds.

NB Anecdotes are not evidence etc, I just find it interesting how, in the space of a couple of generations, homo / bi sexuality has seemingly gone from stigma, to accepted, to desirable. Obviously with these particular individuals it may just be the flowering of previously suppressed inclinations but they had no reason to suppress them previously and, knowing the individuals I tend to side with my daughter's interpretation.

To shine a bit of light on that as someone a tad younger who experienced the Fashionably bi craze, while being actually bi.

There is a difference between saying your bi to seem more liberal, or to seem different, and actually being bisexual. And there is a massive difference between a female being bisexual and a male.

It is common as yell for younger people, to claim to be bisexual, this has nothing to do with their preference, but merely their image. Personally i find this half funny half offensive. The amount of **** a bisexual ( especially a bisexual male.) takes from both sides of the fence is enormous, if these kids were to experience the actual issues associated with being bi, they would quickly retire the moniker. But they are kids, this week they are bisexual, next week they are a raver, week after that maybe they are wearing led zeppelin shirts and talking about how music sucks now. It is a different ballgame when dealing with the young and silly.

[sadhatter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Proops

Me and Greg Proops have the same problem It isn't effeminate, it is ******* smarmy, get it right.

That being said, i have always assumed, or maybe the word is hoped, the man was at least playing on my team. ( well , in my younger days, now he is a bit...chronologically gifted for my liking.)

[ServiceSoon]

If you cannot answer such a question yourself, then I surely cannot answer it for you.You might think that you are clever for saying this, but the quite embarrassing fact is that YOU have done just that, ergo already answered that question for Crossbow.

[TragicMonkey]

Next, she's going to choose to be black!

[Ron_Tomkins]

Do you choose to like [insert favourite food]? How does one choose an orientation? And of course there is the majority of scientific research on the matter and the statements of numerous psych association. I have heard of a few reports showing a few cases of fluidity, but there just hasn't been enough. Also, fluidity =/= choice.

This.

But it counters the "choosing sin" argument, so you really get nowhere no matter which is true :p .

And I'm not sure she knows what she is communicating herself. She is intentionally choosing an identity that is not congruent with her personal experience of orientation, and doing a very poor job of explaining.

I love the Food analogy because I find that it is by far the best analogy for discussing sexual orientation. Speaking for myself, most of the food and beverage products that I like, I feel that I have always liked them and I never made a conscious choice to like them. But there is also a small category of food products (and also alcohol drinks) that I sort of educated myself to like over time. As I changed, my tastes changed, and also I did some rational decision-making with some of them (such as, "veggies are good for me, maybe I should give this one a try.... oooh, this one doesn't taste so bad if I put some balsamic vinegar on it, etc etc") so I developed a taste for things I didn't like before, and now I like them as much as those other things I have always liked since I was born.

As I mentioned in another thread after getting in a heated discussion about this topic, I did some research to prove my opponent that there was plenty of solid scientific evidence that proves once and for all that homosexuality is either genetic or at least can be traced to some biological factor. I failed to find this evidence. What I found is that there's a bit of both. There are biological factors but there are also upbringing factors, and that on this topic one cannot generalize. It depends on the individual.

So I feel that sexual orientation, like food, is something that cannot be narrowed to a specific source. It's neither entirely biological nor entirely cultural. It's a bit of both and it depends on the individual. Some people are born with a clear taste of what they like. Others switch back and forth. The important thing is to avoid generalizations such as "Homosexuality is a choice", as much as "Homosexuality is innate in the individual" because it isn't always like that. If we can accept this, we can work toward a society that allows the differences from individual from individual. It's when you generalize and say "Homosexuality is this one thing always for everyone, and anyone deviating from this norm is a freak" that you start to get in trouble.

[crimresearch]

"I failed to find this evidence. What I found is that there's a bit of both. There are biological factors but there are also upbringing factors, and that on this topic one cannot generalize. It depends on the individual."



This.

[Crossbow]

Right. And are black people who choose to identify as white actually just 'unclear' as well? Men who choose to identify as women the same? They just don't know their place?

How lucky the world is to have all of you morally superior beings to tell us how we should be, in order to be what we are.


*ETA*: Seriously, I'm surprised at that choice of words coming from you. It really does read as intolerance. which I've come to expect from others, but not from your posts.

Wow!

You sure do have a way of quickly personalizing things and thereby taking offense to them.

[Cainkane1]

She should have said she was bi. Having sex is a choice not whom you want to have sex with.

[Cainkane1]

Heterosexual people in certain situations choose to do gay sex fairly often. Especially in prison where its gay sex or no sex. I've also known gay men and women who have kids so you can choose to do straight sex if your gay.

[crimresearch]

Wow!

You sure do have a way of quickly personalizing things and thereby taking offense to them.
When you broadcast intolerant and judgemental beliefs about others, they *are* going to take it personally.

Your comments about certain people being 'unclear', are divisive and explicitly offensive, whether you admit that or not.

[ponderingturtle]

"I failed to find this evidence. What I found is that there's a bit of both. There are biological factors but there are also upbringing factors, and that on this topic one cannot generalize. It depends on the individual."



This.

Is there any positive evidence of upbringing instead of say random factors?

[Crossbow]

When you broadcast intolerant and judgemental beliefs about others, they *are* going to take it personally.

Your comments about certain people being 'unclear', are divisive and explicitly offensive, whether you admit that or not.

Wow! Thanks much for so abundantly demonstrating my point.

[timhau]

Maybe Ms. Nixon just chose to like boobs. I can certainly relate to that.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Right. And are black people who choose to identify as white actually just 'unclear' as well? Men who choose to identify as women the same? They just don't know their place?

How lucky the world is to have all of you morally superior beings to tell us how we should be, in order to be what we are.


*ETA*: Seriously, I'm surprised at that choice of words coming from you. It really does read as intolerance. which I've come to expect from others, but not from your posts.

My position is that she is reacting to anti-bisexual intolerance in a remarkably unhealthy fashion. When people say homosexuality is not a choice, they are referring to orientation, not identity. Yet she is claiming that they are caving to bigots, and pronouncing that she is choosing her identity. This just doesn't make sense.

I do not see why identity is something sacrosanct. Indeed, it is largely a cultural product. When people say being "gay" is a modern invention, they are referring to the identity. When people say that they didn't choose to be gay, they are referring to orientation.

Most of us recognise the choice in identity because of the "closet cases". I do not believe such incongruent identities lead to happiness, and I feel no shame in saying so. Just as with this woman who is running away from who she is. The problem, as with closet cases, is that as a public figure she is inviting more hate on her.

Some people, including me, choose the "queer" identity. This leads to lots of crazy discussion, even amongst ourselves (I referenced one earlier about if heterosexuals could be queers). There is tons of discord, but it doesn't get out of hand because when asked most of us explain our orientation. The purpose is not to hide ourselves behind a convenient label, but to allow us to be ourselves without the constraints of the mainstream identities.

[real american]

As someone said earlier Sexual Activity is a choice. you dont choose to be straight but you choose to have sex with the opposite sex. My view is that seeing that there is a choice in acting on sexual preferences then it is not an issue of civil rights issue, this meaning sexual activity not sexual preference.

[cambion]

Clearly it's not a choice for most people.

However, if she feels it is a choice in her case, so what? Why should she lie about her feelings just because they might be distorted to play into the agenda of bigots?

There's nothing wrong with choosing to be sexually exclusive to your own gender, and I don't think she should get held to flame for saying as much.

If she'd made a general statement that being gay was a choice, then she should absolutely be called out for it. But she didn't, she even qualified her statement by pointing out that for most people, it's NOT a choice. The fact that her honesty is a convenient soundbite for losers with an axe to grind with LBGT people isn't indicative of a failing on her part. It's their problem, and they're the ones who deserve the scorn.

[AvalonXQ]

Honestly, I feel that sexual orientation is a choice in the same way that one's weight is a choice.

One can't flip a mental switch today and suddenly be fifty pounds lighter. Nor do normal people make a conscious, deliberate choice to be overweight or thin or athletic. And there is certainly a large element that is biological, in that people respond to food and stress differently and some bodies are much more likely to shed pounds or pick them up. However, longterm changes in lifestyle do affect weight, musculature, and body mass. We may not have had much choice in what we were fed as children or what our genes say, but we can make decisions as to what we're going to eat now that have a future effect on our body shape and health.

Sexual attraction is the same way. We may not have had much say over our biology or our childhood experiences, but the exposure and experiences I choose to have today can affect my sexual proclivities and reactions in the future.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Honestly, I feel that sexual orientation is a choice in the same way that one's weight is a choice.

One can't flip a mental switch today and suddenly be fifty pounds lighter. Nor do normal people make a conscious, deliberate choice to be overweight or thin or athletic. And there is certainly a large element that is biological, in that people respond to food and stress differently and some bodies are much more likely to shed pounds or pick them up. However, longterm changes in lifestyle do affect weight, musculature, and body mass. We may not have had much choice in what we were fed as children or what our genes say, but we can make decisions as to what we're going to eat now that have a future effect on our body shape and health.

Sexual attraction is the same way. We may not have had much say over our biology or our childhood experiences, but the exposure and experiences I choose to have today can affect my sexual proclivities and reactions in the future.

This is a much better explanation than most, but the problem is in verifying it. We've got a quite a few mechanisms for unchosen biological and environmental factors. But what about chosen mechanisms? Is orientation only fluid at certain life stages? I know people will try to slip choice in here, but we simply don't have the data to know for sure. We know all about high-fat, low-calorie, gluten-free etc. diets, but we haven't found anything from re-orientation therapy.

[Sledge]

So in lieu of not knowing for sure, we'll just assume that our personal beliefs are correct and criticise anyone who says they feel differently?

[crimresearch]

So in lieu of not knowing for sure, we'll just assume that our personal beliefs are correct and criticise anyone who says they feel differently?
Le syndrome simien vert

[joobz]

Honestly, I feel that sexual orientation is a choice in the same way that one's weight is a choice.

One can't flip a mental switch today and suddenly be fifty pounds lighter. Nor do normal people make a conscious, deliberate choice to be overweight or thin or athletic. And there is certainly a large element that is biological, in that people respond to food and stress differently and some bodies are much more likely to shed pounds or pick them up. However, longterm changes in lifestyle do affect weight, musculature, and body mass. We may not have had much choice in what we were fed as children or what our genes say, but we can make decisions as to what we're going to eat now that have a future effect on our body shape and health.

Sexual attraction is the same way. We may not have had much say over our biology or our childhood experiences, but the exposure and experiences I choose to have today can affect my sexual proclivities and reactions in the future.
This is a good analogy.
It also explains well how not each and every person will have the exact same "healthy setpoint"
Just like you wouldn't say 170lbs is a healthy weight for someone 4'10". But for someone 5'10-11", it may be ideal.

[Sledge]

Le syndrome simien vert

But I don't even own a hovercraft. :confused:

[Tsukasa Buddha]

So in lieu of not knowing for sure, we'll just assume that our personal beliefs are correct and criticise anyone who says they feel differently?

(Assuming this is directed at me)

If you read the interview, you will see that she admits being bisexual and chooses to identify as gay (she even accidentally identifies as bi). She was talking about identity, but then complained about gay people who say their orientation is not a choice. Ignoring the absurdity, I get her personal feelings about being labeled "bisexual". My problem is how she has publicly tried to deal with it.

[curi0us]

However, if she feels it is a choice in her case, so what? Why should she lie about her feelings just because they might be distorted to play into the agenda of bigots? It's probably more accurate to her call her really confused rather then lying. Here is a little more from Nixon that makes it clear that her choosing to describe herself as something other then bisexual is a result of her internalized bigotry against bisexuals:


"I don't pull out the 'bisexual' word because nobody likes the bisexuals. Everybody likes to dump on the bisexuals," she said.

When the writer said that bisexual is the "B" in LGBT, Nixon responded, "I know, but we get no respect."

"You just said 'we,' so you must self-identify as one," the writer continued.

"I just don't like to pull out that word," the actress explained.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_162-57365588-10391698/cynthia-nixon-says-shes-gay-by-choice/

[truethat]

Personally I have always thought she was a completely repulsive person. I never watched SATC but could never figure out how the chinless wonder was ever cast on that show.

She's trying to save face for her kids. Her kids are probably confused and now that she's had another baby with her wife, the kids might feel like she's turned her back on her "old life." That's how I'm taking it.

She doesn't have to say it's not a choice. She could just shut the feck up about it. Seriously

[Caper]

Male heterosexual. I wasn't trying to be gay, just wanted to see if I could double my pool of potential sex partners by enjoying guys as well as gals. Turns out I couldn't just make myself like guys through sheer force of will :)

Wow. That is crazy. Man you read about some strange stuff on this site.

[crimresearch]

But I don't even own a hovercraft. :confused:
Luvs ya ;-}

[applecorped]

I am not gay, but I am willing to learn.

[cambion]

"I don't pull out the 'bisexual' word because nobody likes the bisexuals. Everybody likes to dump on the bisexuals," she said.

When the writer said that bisexual is the "B" in LGBT, Nixon responded, "I know, but we get no respect."


Ah. Well, if she said that, then I agree. There's nothing defensible about either of those statement.

[crimresearch]

Because no true gay person would ever say that? (rolleyes).

[cambion]

Because no true gay person would ever say that? (rolleyes).

Ooh, you knowingly used a no true scot to make a straw man argument. That's gotta be some kind of ironic first.

[crimresearch]

Ooh, you knowingly used a no true scot to make a straw man argument. That's gotta be some kind of ironic first.
Is that all you've got? Projecting the fallacies onto the person who called them?

Spare me the 'nuh uh, you're one too' garbage.

[cambion]

Wrong. You misrepresented what I said.

My statement did not in any way imply that no gay person would ever say something like that. She identifies as being gay, and she said something stupid about bisexuals. So obviously a gay person might say such a thing.

[RockNroll]

Wow. That is crazy. Man you read about some strange stuff on this site.

You think a guy engaging in some bi-curious experimentation to see whether he likes it or not is "crazy" and "strange"? May I suggest going out more?

[Rasmus]

Wrong. You misrepresented what I said.

My statement did not in any way imply that no gay person would ever say something like that. She identifies as being gay, and she said something stupid about bisexuals. So obviously a gay person might say such a thing.

I thought we were agreed that she ain't gay? :boxedin:

[cambion]

I thought we were agreed that she ain't gay? :boxedin:

Ah, I forgot that the top part of curious' post said as much, so I see why my reply was misleading. What I meant is that I agree that those statements were indefensible, which after reading the whole post again, wasn't really curious' point. So my bad.

So to be clear, I'm still perfectly fine with her identifying as gay. If she just does so because she's afraid of the bi label for some reason, I guess that's her problem, but I don't really see any reason to stick my nose into her sexual identity just because I might disagree with her reasoning behind it.

[Mark6]

If someone is bisexual, but they have a higher attraction to the same sex and decide to pursue it indefinitely rather than the other, does that constitute gay by choice?

I would not phrase it that way, but Cynthia Nixon apparently does.

More interestingly, if someone is bisexual, but they have a higher attraction to the opposite sex and decide to pursue it indefinitely rather than the other, isn't that straight by choice? To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever uses "straight by choice" in that context (and hardly ever at all).

[Edited] Somewhat more seriously, I am convinced most people are least somewhat bisexual. If you make a scale with 0 meaning "totally gay, cannot possibly have sex with opposite sex", and 100 meaning the opposite, most people would fall somewhere in between. But if you fall anywhere above 50 on that scale, it is exceedingly unlikely for you do engage in same-sex relationship. Why would you? It is not your first choice, and there are large social drawbacks. OTOH, if you are at 40-45 on that scale, being "straight by choice" is a real possibility. Even though it is not their first choice.

[Dessi]

Because no true gay person would ever say that? (rolleyes).
Ooh, you knowingly used a no true scot to make a straw man argument. That's gotta be some kind of ironic first.
Is that all you've got? Projecting the fallacies onto the person who called them?

Spare me the 'nuh uh, you're one too' garbage.
Will have to agree with cambion. Your comment makes absolutely no sense, except to criticize an argument that no one made.

Tsusaka Buddha's comment (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7963048&postcount=5) captures the criticism perfectly: Ms Nixon's choice of words, that she is "gay by choice", is a deliberately misleading form of equivocation.

The choice of headline is meant to draw in viewers, particularly the homophobes who might say "omg, this woman actually chooses to be attracted to women, that proves it, being gay is a choice! Gays can choose to be straight, ha ha!" -- then she talks about something totally different, identity and labels. She dislikes the bi label, prefers gay instead.

I can understand why bi people do that for a few reasons. 1) There's a slight stigma attached to bisexual people, particularly for men more than than women. 2) Some bi people fall predominately closer to one side of the Kinsey scale than another, making them feel closer or further from the gay/straight communities than the bisexual community. 3) Some bisexual people are romantically attracted to one gender, while being sexually attracted to both, or attracted to just plain gayness, how on earth do they label that without explaining the nuances of their sexual orientation for the rest of their life?

Whatever the case, criticism of Ms Nixon comes from her not particularly helpful equivocation between sexual orientation and sexual orientation identity, not whether her comments are what a "true" gay person would say.

[Antiquehunter]

My issue with this, is that she seems to have purposefully chosen a word that is particularly 'loaded' in the broader GLBT areana. Largely because of the nonsense that gay people are believed to be 'broken' and 'fixable' by certain idiots - 'fixable' through therapy etc...

If she's trying to state that she is attracted to both sexes, and actively CHOOSES to be in relationship with another woman, then sure - she is making a 'choice'. That is a bit foreign to me, because I'm not bisexual - not the least bit.

Its unfortunate she didn't find a better way to describe this, because I do expect this quote will be abused by those who are trying to turn back the clock on GLBT rights.

[crimresearch]

Will have to agree with cambion. Your comment makes absolutely no sense, except to criticize an argument that no one made.

Tsusaka Buddha's comment (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7963048&postcount=5) captures the criticism perfectly: Ms Nixon's choice of words, that she is "gay by choice", is a deliberately misleading form of equivocation.

The choice of headline is meant to draw in viewers, particularly the homophobes who might say "omg, this woman actually chooses to be attracted to women, that proves it, being gay is a choice! Gays can choose to be straight, ha ha!" -- then she talks about something totally different, identity and labels. She dislikes the bi label, prefers gay instead.

I can understand why bi people do that for a few reasons. 1) There's a slight stigma attached to bisexual people, particularly for men more than than women. 2) Some bi people fall predominately closer to one side of the Kinsey scale than another, making them feel closer or further from the gay/straight communities than the bisexual community. 3) Some bisexual people are romantically attracted to one gender, while being sexually attracted to both, or attracted to just plain gayness, how on earth do they label that without explaining the nuances of their sexual orientation for the rest of their life?

Whatever the case, criticism of Ms Nixon comes from her not particularly helpful equivocation between sexual orientation and sexual orientation identity, not whether her comments are what a "true" gay person would say.


The assertion has been repeatedly made in this thread that by claiming choice, Ms. Nixon is wrong and more specifically that she must be bisexual because no true gay person would say that it is a choice.
The labels 'confused' and 'unclear' as well as the insistence that she is 'really bi' make that clear. Lumping her in with homophobes carries my point over the top.

The fact is that all the science we have on human development indicates that life isn't as simple or one dimensional as 100% genetic.

Applying such fallacies in the same manner as those invested in woo-woo and blind faith to this topic helps no one.

You don't get to say what she is, any more than you get to say that a man who identifies as a woman isn't what they claim they are.

If people don't like having the mirror held up to their own biases, there is a simple solution.

[Dessi]

The assertion has been repeatedly made in this thread that by claiming choice, Ms. Nixon is wrong and more specifically that she must be bisexual because no true gay person would say what she says.
People are stating Cynthia Nixon is bisexual because, in her own words (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/01/24/cynthia-nixon-discusses-her-role-in-wit-her-cancer-bisexuality-and-her-kids.html), she states unambiguously that she's bisexual:
It’s so not fudging. It’s so not. I think for gay people who feel 100 percent gay, it doesn’t make any sense. And for straight people who feel 100 percent straight, it doesn’t make any sense. I don’t pull out the “bisexual” word because nobody likes the bisexuals. Everybody likes to dump on the bisexuals.

But it is the “B” in LGBT.

CN: I know. But we get no respect.

You just said “we,” so you must self-identify as one.

I just don’t like to pull out that word. But I do completely feel that when I was in relationships with men, I was in love and in lust with those men. And then I met Christine and I fell in love and lust with her. I am completely the same person and I was not walking around in some kind of fog. I just responded to the people in front of me the way I truly felt.

No one in this thread is using a "no true gay" argument, there's no point criticizing people for things they've never said.

[Ausmerican]

[Edited] Somewhat more seriously, I am convinced most people are least somewhat bisexual. If you make a scale with 0 meaning "totally gay, cannot possibly have sex with opposite sex", and 100 meaning the opposite, most people would fall somewhere in between. But if you fall anywhere above 50 on that scale, it is exceedingly unlikely for you do engage in same-sex relationship. Why would you? It is not your first choice, and there are large social drawbacks. OTOH, if you are at 40-45 on that scale, being "straight by choice" is a real possibility. Even though it is not their first choice.

/\ This is how I have always looked at it. A sliding scale not separate points. Much like everything else that we argue about on here like there is only two points, right and wrong. Capitalism/socialism? Sliding scale. Liberal/conservative? Sliding scale. Theist/atheist? Same thing. Many of us are towards one end or another on these scales but that doesnt invalidate the large center areas we often ignore.

[Marduk]

Are anyone but the religious conservatives or the deeply ignorant (they may overlap) still seriously arguing that sexual orientation is a choice?

I used to identify as gay, nowadays I identify as pansexual
by choice
:p

[Psi Baba]

My issue with this, is that she seems to have purposefully chosen a word that is particularly 'loaded' in the broader GLBT areana. Largely because of the nonsense that gay people are believed to be 'broken' and 'fixable' by certain idiots - 'fixable' through therapy etc...

If she's trying to state that she is attracted to both sexes, and actively CHOOSES to be in relationship with another woman, then sure - she is making a 'choice'. That is a bit foreign to me, because I'm not bisexual - not the least bit.

Its unfortunate she didn't find a better way to describe this, because I do expect this quote will be abused by those who are trying to turn back the clock on GLBT rights.
Exactly. I don't think anyone would have a problem with her saying that she would prefer to be thought of as gay, but claiming to be "gay by choice" carries implications that she probably isn't intending to make. It's not that she suddenly went to play for the other team, but that she's a switch hitter who has decided that she would rather be thought of as a lefty.

No idea who he is but I did a quick Wiki look-up and he went to "College of William and Mary" - how much gayer can you get than a college named "College of William and Mary"!
Ball State? Moorehead?

[katy_did]

People are stating Cynthia Nixon is bisexual because, in her own words (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/01/24/cynthia-nixon-discusses-her-role-in-wit-her-cancer-bisexuality-and-her-kids.html), she states unambiguously that she's bisexual

Of course, she also says (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-05-11/gossip/27064080_1_sexuality-danny-mozes-cynthia-nixon):
If anybody, prior to my meeting and falling in love with Christine, had asked me about what I think about sexuality, I would have said I think we're all bisexual," the actress says. "But I had that point of view without ever having felt attracted to a woman. I had never met a woman I was attracted to [before Christine]. And maybe if I'd met her when I was 20, I would have fallen in love and only dated women. But maybe if I'd met her at 20, I wouldn't have responded at all. Who knows?"

So I'm not sure she's using the word 'bisexual' in the same way that others are when they use it to describe her.

[Dessi]

Maybe the takeaway from all of this is, **** labels.

[katy_did]

Maybe the takeaway from all of this is, **** labels.

I'll drink to that. :)

[Crossbow]

Maybe the takeaway from all of this is, **** labels.

Indeed! That is a good takeaway.

However, I think a better one is that there are some posters who over-personalize things and that makes is rather difficult to have good communication with them.

[AvalonXQ]

Maybe the takeaway from all of this is, **** labels.

Absolutely.

[sadhatter]

He's one of the regular fourth guests on the US Whose Line Is It Anyway. Always struck me as far camper than any of the other performers.

I still can't get over the idea that someone is being criticised for how they perceive their own sexuality. It seems like everyone should be free to be what they want, as long as what they want is something we agree with.

I don't think it is that, that people have a problem with.

A description is something meant to make people understand something. If your description is so odd, and using language in a way that is not consistent at all with common usage, it is simply not useful as an explanation. She would have done better to just say " It's complicated."

I mean hell, i am in the same boat. Do i go into a long tirade about exactly who , why , when and where i bang? No, i realize that if it does come up people simply want to know , in broad strokes what i am about in that regards, so i say " Bisexual" as i know people take that meaning to mean one that has sex with both genders.

People put way too much focus on trying to manipulate the english language and meaning of words to their exact flavor of sexuality. The way i see it, broad strokes, and if the person knows you well enough to make the minutia matter, they will pick up on it by knowing you. Giving an explanation that damn near takes a professional tolerance speaker to explain, just isn't helping anyone.

[sadhatter]

Absolutely I do. There are some foods that I've liked since I was little, because of my environment growing up. There are other foods I have chosen to learn to enjoy since then. Ever heard the term "acquired taste"? This is a real thing.



Exposure, acclimation, and patterning.
What I'm attracted to changes over the years through repeated exposure in media and in person. Although a lot of my sexual "tastes" were impacted by upbringing and chidhood experience, over time what is liked and disliked can change signficantly by choosing to focus on certain elements, through reward/punishment, and by associating elements with individual traits.
I'll admit that it continually surprises me that it doesn't seem to work this way for everyone else. Gender and gender ideals are culturally defined; our personalities are crafted through years of experiences; what's the problem with recognizing that orientation is an interaction of personality with culture, and therefore certainly changable over time?

Someone could quickly curb your d and d loving by appropriate punishment, does that mean that it is right?

Forcing someone, through punishment or reward does not mean that an attraction, whether it be sexual or otherwise is a choice. It simply shows that the person in question has a brain and wants to avoid unpleasantness.

And again, like always in this debate your confusing homosexual sex, with homosexuality. Sure you can stop having gay sex, but you can't stop being gay. Think of if suddenly you were no longer able to play d and d. You would still be a d and d player, simply not one in an active game.

By saying someone choosing to not have gay sex means that they are not gay , makes about as much sense as saying because someone can choose not to eat meat, humans are not omnivorous.

[sadhatter]

Heterosexual people in certain situations choose to do gay sex fairly often. Especially in prison where its gay sex or no sex. I've also known gay men and women who have kids so you can choose to do straight sex if your gay.

I have to bring this up when i see it, but prison sex is used as a weapon and a punishment, not akin to eating McDonalds when you really want a steak. Sure there are homosexuals in prison who are in homosexual relationships, but the majority of prison sex is about shame and punishment, not taking what one can get.

[sadhatter]

You think a guy engaging in some bi-curious experimentation to see whether he likes it or not is "crazy" and "strange"? May I suggest going out more?

How else would one know?

I mean if you never had an urge to "See one up close." i can see that, but coming from experience, a lot of folks just get curious. And an interesting situation happens ever so often, i find.

An otherwise straight gent may, for some reason or another give a watch of porn involving gay activity. They may dig this, but not actually dig actually doing it, its one of those things like a swordfight ( speaking of a literal swordfight.) it looks really cool on film, but in real life, its a lot different.

So how does this guy find out without experimenting a bit?

"Crazy"? No, just the same premise as trying a new food, maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't but if you never try it, you'll never know.

[sadhatter]

I would not phrase it that way, but Cynthia Nixon apparently does.

More interestingly, if someone is bisexual, but they have a higher attraction to the opposite sex and decide to pursue it indefinitely rather than the other, isn't that straight by choice? To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever uses "straight by choice" in that context (and hardly ever at all).

[Edited] Somewhat more seriously, I am convinced most people are least somewhat bisexual. If you make a scale with 0 meaning "totally gay, cannot possibly have sex with opposite sex", and 100 meaning the opposite, most people would fall somewhere in between. But if you fall anywhere above 50 on that scale, it is exceedingly unlikely for you do engage in same-sex relationship. Why would you? It is not your first choice, and there are large social drawbacks. OTOH, if you are at 40-45 on that scale, being "straight by choice" is a real possibility. Even though it is not their first choice.

I applaud your try, but as a bi guy, with a preference for females, i'll shine some light on the subject.

It is not a matter of what is easier, since we are going with food analogies , i'll put it this way.

Ever want a steak? Why though? Its more expensive, takes longer to make, and can go bad much quicker than rice. Rice, is by far the easier option to take if you want to eat, but even if you like rice, you will still find yourself wanting a steak now and again, despite the drawbacks.

Sometimes i feel like a male, sometimes i feel like a female, hell sometimes i feel like both. And the social stigma attached to two of those options, has nothing to do with it, it is, for lack of a better term "the cost of doing business."

And it isn't just sex, relationships with females and males are extremely different, they both have their perks, they both have their detriments, it is essentially a matter of taste, the same way the rice and steak issue is.

A lot of factors influence my choice of who i am going after. Availability, situation, person, relationship, physical attraction, mental attraction, but no where in there is "What other folks think.".

[sadhatter]

People are stating Cynthia Nixon is bisexual because, in her own words (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/01/24/cynthia-nixon-discusses-her-role-in-wit-her-cancer-bisexuality-and-her-kids.html), she states unambiguously that she's bisexual:


No one in this thread is using a "no true gay" argument, there's no point criticizing people for things they've never said.

I think folks are getting confused because of the fact that the way bisexuals are treated, by both sides of the fence, is not really well known. And as such, the impetus to wriggle out of calling one's self bisexual is rather high.

[AlBell]

Re title: Is there someone somewhere who isn't gay by choice?

[sadhatter]

Re title: Is there someone somewhere who [b[isn't[/b] gay by choice?

Gay porn stars seem to have the market cornered. Your telling me someone who gets stuck with the name Randy Dicksin, or Roger Johnson, has any other choice of career?

[Antiquehunter]

I'm pretty confident there is no choice involved to my gayness.

And no, I'm not a porn star.

Although I'm damn good.

[Marduk]

Maybe the takeaway from all of this is, **** labels.

yup, that and if you feel you are being discriminated against for your sexuality
sue them
:D

[AlBell]

I applaud your try, but as a bi guy, with a preference for females, i'll shine some light on the subject.

It is not a matter of what is easier, since we are going with food analogies , i'll put it this way.

Ever want a steak? Why though? Its more expensive, takes longer to make, and can go bad much quicker than rice. Rice, is by far the easier option to take if you want to eat, but even if you like rice, you will still find yourself wanting a steak now and again, despite the drawbacks.

Sometimes i feel like a male, sometimes i feel like a female, hell sometimes i feel like both. And the social stigma attached to two of those options, has nothing to do with it, it is, for lack of a better term "the cost of doing business."

And it isn't just sex, relationships with females and males are extremely different, they both have their perks, they both have their detriments, it is essentially a matter of taste, the same way the rice and steak issue is.

A lot of factors influence my choice of who i am going after. Availability, situation, person, relationship, physical attraction, mental attraction, but no where in there is "What other folks think.".
Are your same sex partners steak or rice?

[Ron_Tomkins]

I applaud your try, but as a bi guy, with a preference for females, i'll shine some light on the subject.

It is not a matter of what is easier, since we are going with food analogies , i'll put it this way.

Ever want a steak? Why though? Its more expensive, takes longer to make, and can go bad much quicker than rice. Rice, is by far the easier option to take if you want to eat, but even if you like rice, you will still find yourself wanting a steak now and again, despite the drawbacks.

Sometimes i feel like a male, sometimes i feel like a female, hell sometimes i feel like both. And the social stigma attached to two of those options, has nothing to do with it, it is, for lack of a better term "the cost of doing business."

And it isn't just sex, relationships with females and males are extremely different, they both have their perks, they both have their detriments, it is essentially a matter of taste, the same way the rice and steak issue is.

A lot of factors influence my choice of who i am going after. Availability, situation, person, relationship, physical attraction, mental attraction, but no where in there is "What other folks think.".

Great post. Once again, the food analogy proves to be the most efficient one for the whole gay debate.

[TheAnachronism]

Great post. Once again, the food analogy proves to be the most efficient one for the whole gay debate.

I will agree that the food analogy is is helpful to illustrate certain principles about attraction that apply to sexuality of various types, but I would add that it also implies a sort of whimsicality to it that, while amusing in a certain way, might easily be misinterpreted. I am not in love with my boyfriend like I am in love with a banana :p

[Marduk]

I am in love with a banana :p

pictures or it didn't happen
:D

[ponderingturtle]

Maybe the takeaway from all of this is, **** labels.

I find it tends to chafe depending on the variety of label. The ones with adhesive backs are noticeably unpleasant.

The problem with this is that labels are also identities and in part how people define themselves. You see this with labels like geek or skeptic as well as sexual ones, and no set of labels is anywhere close to numerous enough to be a highly accurate fit on many of the people it is applied to.

I don't see labels going away but people should try to deemphasize them so that when there seem to be minor. For example why is it entirely wrong to categorize someone who would only seek serious emotional relationships with one sex but be open to casual sexual encounters with the other as not bi? I can see arguments either way and no reason to object to them about how they identify themselves.

[ponderingturtle]

I have to bring this up when i see it, but prison sex is used as a weapon and a punishment, not akin to eating McDonalds when you really want a steak. Sure there are homosexuals in prison who are in homosexual relationships, but the majority of prison sex is about shame and punishment, not taking what one can get.

Is that true about all such sexual flexibility in monosexual situations?

[ponderingturtle]

Gay porn stars seem to have the market cornered. Your telling me someone who gets stuck with the name Randy Dicksin, or Roger Johnson, has any other choice of career?

This is funny as many gay porn stars are straight in their personal life. The higher pay for males in gay porn vs straight porn is what causes them to go against their personal inclinations.

[Rasmus]

This is funny as many gay porn stars are straight in their personal life. The higher pay for males in gay porn vs straight porn is what causes them to go against their personal inclinations.

I'd assume all pornstars are pretty much constantly going against their personal inclinations - porn flicks are, after all, no documentaries.

[Darat]

I'd assume all pornstars are pretty much constantly going against their personal inclinations - porn flicks are, after all, no documentaries.

Hang on are you saying they are not documenting a pizza delivery job? Oh well I might as well rip-up my application form for Domino's.

[Arcade22]

This is funny as many gay porn stars are straight in their personal life. The higher pay for males in gay porn vs straight porn is what causes them to go against their personal inclinations.

What's so funny about that? It's the reason why the majority of professional gay-pornography is awful.

[RockNroll]

How else would one know?

I mean if you never had an urge to "See one up close." i can see that, but coming from experience, a lot of folks just get curious. And an interesting situation happens ever so often, i find.

An otherwise straight gent may, for some reason or another give a watch of porn involving gay activity. They may dig this, but not actually dig actually doing it, its one of those things like a swordfight ( speaking of a literal swordfight.) it looks really cool on film, but in real life, its a lot different.

So how does this guy find out without experimenting a bit?

"Crazy"? No, just the same premise as trying a new food, maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't but if you never try it, you'll never know.

I may be misinterpreting your post, especially since English is not my first language, but it seems you think I was the one making the claim that bi-experimenting is "crazy" and "strange".

The "guy" is question was me, and I was responding to a claim that my experimenting and curiosity were somehow a weird unusual thing.

I in fact totally agree with your opinion on the matter.

Sorry for the derail :)

[curious pheonix]

Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice".



Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.


hmmm i'm guessing she had just had enough of men for a lifetime or just preferred her female counterpart to everything else- to 'decide' or 'choose' by definition means to cut out all other options .. in this case including men...:eye-poppi

[Antiquehunter]

hmmm i'm guessing she had just had enough of men for a lifetime - to 'decide' or 'choose' by definition means to cut out all other options .. in this case including men...:eye-poppi

I think you're reading quite a bit into her statement. Assuming she is bisexual, she may at some point in time in the future choose differently. Or choose celibacy. Or be like Frankie and choose life.

[Bikewer]

My wife has hypothesized that some women do the "gay by choice" thing as they have had such rotten experiences with men....

We had a male friend who declared he was going to try this after a 4th or 5th breakup. (he was amazingly insensitive to his "loves"...)
Unfortunately, his idea of "becoming gay" was to dress funny and "act up".... Something which was met with...Detachment by actual gay folks.

[Antiquehunter]

My wife has hypothesized that some women do the "gay by choice" thing as they have had such rotten experiences with men....

We had a male friend who declared he was going to try this after a 4th or 5th breakup. (he was amazingly insensitive to his "loves"...)
Unfortunately, his idea of "becoming gay" was to dress funny and "act up".... Something which was met with...Detachment by actual gay folks.

Yes - good luck with that one.

People pretending to be Richard Simmons in the hopes of picking up a girl tend to get looked over by... pretty much everyone.

[WildCat]

This is funny as many gay porn stars are straight in their personal life. The higher pay for males in gay porn vs straight porn is what causes them to go against their personal inclinations.
I don't think any amount of money would get me sexually aroused for a man. And I doubt there would be so much difficulty finding gay men to do gay porn that they'd have to cast straight men for the role.

[Mark6]

My wife has hypothesized that some women do the "gay by choice" thing as they have had such rotten experiences with men....
I think your wife is onto something.

I had met a fair number of women who:

a) Preferred hetero sex, but only with a man they really liked
b) If they could not find a really good man, would sleep with each other rather than with some jerk man

What do you call women like that? "Lesbian by necessity"?

And from what I saw, real dyed-in-the-wool dykes either hated above mentioned women, or tried to "fully convert" them -- generally in vain.

[Complexity]

admits [/HILITE]being bisexual...


'admits' ? :(

[Complexity]

Is that all you've got? Projecting the fallacies onto the person who called them?

Spare me the 'nuh uh, you're one too' garbage.


Perhaps you two should get a room...

[SumDood]

Do most american men choose to be turned off by hairy legs and armpits on women?

[Complexity]

I used to identify as gay, nowadays I identify as pansexual
by choice
:p


No one, and no thing, is safe.

[Mark6]

deleted

[Tsukasa Buddha]

She has now "clarified":

While I don't often use the word, the technically precise term for my orientation is bisexual. I believe bisexuality is not a choice, it is a fact. What I have 'chosen' is to be in a gay relationship.

Linky. (http://www.towleroad.com/2012/01/cynthia-nixon-technically-im-a-bisexual-who-has-chosen-to-be-in-a-gay-relationship.html#comments)

[Lisa Simpson]

That makes more sense.

[Alan]

It's basically what she said in the previous interview, about how she doesn't like the b word.

[WildCat]

She has now "clarified":



Linky. (http://www.towleroad.com/2012/01/cynthia-nixon-technically-im-a-bisexual-who-has-chosen-to-be-in-a-gay-relationship.html#comments)
Too late, the fundies have already written it in stone and will use this for years to come.

[Captain Obvious]

Well I once tried being gay, but had to give up.
Couldn't be arsed.

[crimresearch]

Too late, the fundies have already written it in stone and will use this for years to come.
You're right, gay fundies won't admit to any clarification for her heresy.

http://igfculturewatch.com/2006/02/14/young-out-and-gaynot-queer/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/04/14/ED13182.DTL

[Crossbow]

Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice".



Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.

Update!

Just in case anyone is still interested, Cynthia Nixion has clarified her earlier statement and one can follow-up at:

http://news.yahoo.com/actress-clarifies-remark-being-gay-choice-060822580.html

[RandFan]

Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice".

Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.Sorry if this was already posted.

Cynthia Nixon Says Bisexuality Is Not a ‘Choice’ (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2012/01/cynthia-nixon-says-bisexuality-is-not-a-choice/)

“While I don’t often use the word, the technically precise term for my orientation is bisexual. I believe bisexuality is not a choice, it is a fact. What I have ‘chosen’ is to be in a gay relationship. As I said in the Times and will say again here, I do, however, believe that most members of our community — as well as the majority of heterosexuals — cannot and do not choose the gender of the persons with whom they seek to have intimate relationships because, unlike me, they are only attracted to one sex.”

ETA: Yeah, should have taken a moment just to check the last page. Doh!

[Bill Thompson]

A gay housemate once told me that for women they are not necessarily born gay. I have no idea if that is true or not.

[Weird Science]

'admits' ? :(

Reminds me of "The Onion" headline when it was discovered NJ's governor had a gay lover for a long time which he paid with government funds: "Gay Man Tearfully Admits to being Governor of New Jersey".

[RandFan]

A gay housemate once told me that for women they are not necessarily born gay. I have no idea if that is true or not.It's an incredibly ignorant statement that is counter to all sociological data. During the Prop 8 trial the defense, who offered no experts, tried to get the plaintiffs experts to agree with this claim. The experts testified that while sexuality can be fluid (bisexual) the idea that one isn't born gay and becomes gay is flat wrong.

[Cessna172]

The sexual orientation is not a choice. But BTW doesn't mean that is genetical.

[RandFan]

The sexual orientation is not a choice. But BTW doesn't mean that is genetical.A strong consensus based on empirical data is that it's nature and nurture and that genetics plays a very significant role (see sociobioloby and genetic predisposition).

[ponderingturtle]

A strong consensus based on empirical data is that it's nature and nurture and that genetics plays a very significant role (see sociobioloby and genetic predisposition).

Is there any positive evidence for nurture in the sense of non biological causes? There could well be just random elements as well such that you will never find a biological cause that leads to 100% of the people in the group being gay, but that doesn't mean society effects it.

[crimresearch]

Is there any positive evidence for nurture in the sense of non biological causes? There could well be just random elements as well such that you will never find a biological cause that leads to 100% of the people in the group being gay, but that doesn't mean society effects it.
It isn't either/or.

If someone has the genetics found to be associated with 'being gay', and never acts on them because of social pressures, that's nurture.
Likewise if somene does the opposite and overcomes whatever the social setting may dictate.

That's where the idea of choice comes in.

[kerikiwi]

It isn't either/or.

If someone has the genetics found to be associated with 'being gay', and never acts on them because of social pressures, that's nurture.
Likewise if somene does the opposite and overcomes whatever the social setting may dictate.

That's where the idea of choice comes in.

That is choice about whether to be active, not whether to be gay.
A celibate straight person is still straight, no matter what the reasons for celibacy.

[crimresearch]

That is choice about whether to be active, not whether to be gay.
A celibate straight person is still straight, no matter what the reasons for celibacy.
I'm not talking about coming out, or even acting on the self identity.

None of which makes it *not* a component of nurture.

I'm talking about people answering the question 'Who am I?' internally. The answers *can* change, and it isn't anyone else's place to tell them that they aren't really feeling what they feel.

People who identify as heterosexual, fall in love, raise children, and then make a choice later in life to identify as gay (or as bi, kinky, transexual, et al.) should not be fodder for negative speculation and labelling by others.

[Psi Baba]

I think your wife is onto something.

I had met a fair number of women who:

a) Preferred hetero sex, but only with a man they really liked
b) If they could not find a really good man, would sleep with each other rather than with some jerk man

What do you call women like that? "Lesbian by necessity"?
I've heard the term "political lesbians" for women who choose to be with other women on principal rather than out of sexual attraction. Not sure if that's a real distinction or just an outsider's perception.

[Tony]

I find the claim that gay people choose to be attracted to members of the same sex to be extremely bizarre. Speaking personally, I could never choose to be sexually and romantically attracted to another man. This makes Cynthia Nixon's claim puzzling. Did she wake-up one day and say "ya know, I am going to be attracted to women"?

[crimresearch]

I find the claim that gay people choose to be attracted to members of the same sex to be extremely bizarre. Speaking personally, I could never choose to be sexually and romantically attracted to another man. This makes Cynthia Nixon's claim puzzling. Did she wake-up one day and say "ya know, I am going to be attracted to women"?
'Suddenly' isn't the only way choice works. Over a period of days or years, revisiting thoughts (even denial) of being attracted to the same sex can lead to decisions, and for some people action.

[Antiquehunter]

@Tony - it is not believed that is what she is getting at. She states later that she identifies as a bisexual woman, and she CHOOSES at this time, to be in a relationship with another woman. It was a poor choice of words at the time, which got misused.

I don't disagree that I find bisexuality difficult to parse, because it is not my own experience. But I appreciate that everyone is wired a bit differently.

[Weird Science]

I don't see what the big deal is. Surely the point this woman is making is that "bi" people sometimes choose to have sex with one sex and sometimes with the other? Isn't that more or less the DEFINITION of being "bisexual"? (Puzzled look).

[KatieG]

I don't see how sexual orientation is a choice. My humble belief? People are born what they are. Gay, lesbian, transexual, what have you.

I almost literally dropped my jaw when my 90 yo mother expressed the same sentiments. She can still surprise me, that one.

[Alan]

I don't see what the big deal is. Surely the point this woman is making is that "bi" people sometimes choose to have sex with one sex and sometimes with the other? Isn't that more or less the DEFINITION of being "bisexual"? (Puzzled look).
It's not choosing to be gay or straight.

But if an individual looks at it that way for themselves then that's fine.