Female Soldiers Can Be Kept as Slaves

[Mycroft]

At least Muqtada al-Sadr says so:

BASRA, Iraq — A senior aide of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr (search) told worshippers during a Friday sermon in southern Iraq that anyone capturing a female British soldier can keep her as a slave.

The aide, Sheik Abdul-Sattar al-Bahadli (search), also called on supporters to launch jihad, or holy war, against British troops in this southern city.

He offered money to anyone capturing or killing a member of the Governing Council, the interim administration appointed by the U.S.-led occupation 10 months ago.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119325,00.html


Al Jazeera profile (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/815FF50A-4D63-43CB-A404-84DF9E6CDF70.htm)

[reprise]

He's certainly not as generous as Osama (http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/latest/story/0,4390,249725-1083967140,00.html).

[curious]

"A 250,000 dinar reward will be given to whomever detains a female British soldier," Bahadli said.

"She should be handed to the office of Sadr, the martyr, and she will be treated as a concubine."
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=506898&section=news

[iain]

They should be Jewish or Christian! Moses had a very similar deal for his soliders in the Old Testament. The good old days?

[chrisberez]

Originally posted by Mycroft
At least Muqtada al-Sadr says so:




http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119325,00.html


Al Jazeera profile (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/815FF50A-4D63-43CB-A404-84DF9E6CDF70.htm)

I read this too. Simply vile. Of course, such a statement isn't any more vile then what our (U.S.) troops are doing. So while I think it is a horrible thing, at the same time I feel we have to aknowledge that this isn't those "barbaric others" doing this sort of thing- rahter both sides are doing it (it seems). And either way, it is extremely disturbing.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Mycroft
At least Muqtada al-Sadr says so:




http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119325,00.html


Al Jazeera profile (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/815FF50A-4D63-43CB-A404-84DF9E6CDF70.htm)
Its hard to take the moral high ground on the treatment of prisoners in the current circumstances, what sort of reaction were you expecting?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by The Fool

Its hard to take the moral high ground on the treatment of prisoners in the current circumstances, what sort of reaction were you expecting?
If Bush was going on TV telling US troops to feel free to take slaves and concubines, you'd have a point.

Kill or capture a British male soldier, get a reward. If it's a female you get to rape her and keep her as your slave. Abuse Iraqi prisoners and you get to spend serious time in Leavenworth and your military career is over in disgrace. Can you see the difference?

[shemp]

Female slaves! I'm converting right away! Wahoooooooooo!!!

This clown sounds like the Islamic version of Pat Robertson. There's a lot of idiots like both of them out there. The only difference is that Western society overthrew its dependence on the clergy, but Islamic society hasn't.

[American]

Originally posted by shemp
Female slaves! I'm converting right away! Wahoooooooooo!!!

This clown sounds like the Islamic version of Pat Robertson. There's a lot of idiots like both of them out there. The only difference is that Western society overthrew its dependence on the clergy, but Islamic society hasn't.


LIAR!!!

YOU SAYS YOU WAS LEAVING AND NOW YOU DIDNT LEAVE!!!!

Everything you say is MEANINGLESS now, 'cause your word is WORTHLESS HERE!!!!

YOU LIED LIAR!!!!!!!!

[wollery]

Originally posted by American



LIAR!!!

YOU SAYS YOU WAS LEAVING AND NOW YOU DIDNT LEAVE!!!!

Everything you say is MEANINGLESS now, 'cause your word is WORTHLESS HERE!!!!

YOU LIED LIAR!!!!!!!! So he's not entitled to change his mind?

Get a grip moron.

[shemp]

Originally posted by American



LIAR!!!

YOU SAYS YOU WAS LEAVING AND NOW YOU DIDNT LEAVE!!!!

Everything you say is MEANINGLESS now, 'cause your word is WORTHLESS HERE!!!!

YOU LIED LIAR!!!!!!!!

Elton John totally copied REO Speedwagon (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=32963&highlight=elton+john)

[Dorian Gray]

American, everything you say has always been meaningless.

[Skeptic]

Kill or capture a British male soldier, get a reward. If it's a female you get to rape her and keep her as your slave. Abuse Iraqi prisoners and you get to spend serious time in Leavenworth and your military career is over in disgrace. Can you see the difference?

No, he can't.

[iain]

I think the insurgents are playing a reasonably clever game here. Bear in mind that they are trying to win a conflict against an enemy with vastly superior numbers, weapons and training and several orders of magnitude more money.

Bear in mind also that the enemy has declared them to be terrorists; effectively saying that the rules of war do not apply when dealing with them.

To have a chance of anything other than valiant defeat against such odds you've got to do something more that just hide and fire bullets.

What they are trying to do is to encourage their own troops ("you can have some American women for sex slaves and Allah won't complain.") whilst unsettling the coalition forces. I suspect for a female soldier who might be psychologically prepared for incarceration and even a degree of torture if captured, facing the risk of being forced into sexual slavery is something that would take some psychological reajustment.

From their point of view, this is not some competition about who can be the most morally correct by western standards. They are, as they see it, fighting for their religion and way of life. These guys have never made any claims to be upholding liberal western morality so I'm not sure why anyone would expect them to, or feel that to not do so would weaken their moral authority in their own eyes.

This is not to say that it is morally correct; just that whether the west feels it to be so is of supreme irrelevance to these people in the situation they are in.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by WildCat

If Bush was going on TV telling US troops to feel free to take slaves and concubines, you'd have a point.

Kill or capture a British male soldier, get a reward. If it's a female you get to rape her and keep her as your slave. Abuse Iraqi prisoners and you get to spend serious time in Leavenworth and your military career is over in disgrace. Can you see the difference?

Of course he can't. On Planet Fool, all cultures are equal and anyone who questions the value of one system compared to another is branded a bigot. How dare you intimate that a stack of nude prisoners is NOT just as abhorrent as public calls for rape and slavery? Bigot!

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
Its hard to take the moral high ground on the treatment of prisoners in the current circumstances, what sort of reaction were you expecting?

I certainly expected your reaction.

In fact, I bet you would have come up with something to turn the US into the bad guy even without with prison photo scandal.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by chrisberez
I read this too. Simply vile. Of course, such a statement isn't any more vile then what our (U.S.) troops are doing. So while I think it is a horrible thing, at the same time I feel we have to aknowledge that this isn't those "barbaric others" doing this sort of thing- rahter both sides are doing it (it seems). And either way, it is extremely disturbing.

Welcome to the forum Chrisberez.

While I certainly agree that both are terrible, do you really think that they're the same?

[iain]

Originally posted by Mycroft
[BWhile I certainly agree that both are terrible, do you really think that they're the same? [/B]Depends what you mean.

So far, someone has said that captured American female soldiers may be taken as sex slaves. No female soldier has been taken as a sex slave as far as I know, so all we have is words.

On the coalition side, we know that abuse of prisoners has been going on pretty much since the start to some extent. We know that there are worse things than we've been shown (Rumsfeld told us that). We don't yet know what those things are. Critically, we don't know whether the abuse really was isolated to a few rogue soldiers or whether it was directly or indirectly sanctioned or encouraged by more senior people.

Is a year of real abuses more serious than one person saying that soldiers can be taken as sex slaves? Probably, yes. Would abuses by a few rogue soldiers be more serious than female soldiers actually being taken as sex slaves sanctioned by their leaders? Probably not.

[DanishDynamite]

Of course females can be taken as slaves. This was the norm back in the 10th century. Which is the century where these religious fanatics are living.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by iain
They should be Jewish or Christian! Moses had a very similar deal for his soliders in the Old Testament. The good old days?

The difference is that Jews and Christians don't do like that any more. Christians for about 500 years, Jews for about 2500 years.

Time for Mustafa to catch up!

[Fade]

Originally posted by shemp


Elton John totally copied REO Speedwagon (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=32963&highlight=elton+john)

As much as I dislike American, I would have to agree with him.

You are a god damned attention whore. You cry and scream in multiple fora so that everybody takes pity on poor little shemp, then leave for less than a week.

[iain]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


The difference is that Jews and Christians don't do like that any more. Christians for about 500 years, Jews for about 2500 years.

Time for Mustafa to catch up! Good point. Of course, they do still do it, but on a smaller scale and not with official sanction. (e.g. many prostitutes working in the UK are Eastern Europeans forced into prostitution against their will by criminal gangs; yet the British punters seem generally happy to take advantage of the lower prices this has brought).

Worth saying again, though, that so far this is only words and not a single coalition soldier has been forced into sexual slavery in this way as far as we know.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by iain
Good point. Of course, they do still do it, but on a smaller scale and not with official sanction. (e.g. many prostitutes working in the UK are Eastern Europeans forced into prostitution against their will by criminal gangs; yet the British punters seem generally happy to take advantage of the lower prices this has brought).

Worth saying again, though, that so far this is only words and not a single coalition soldier has been forced into sexual slavery in this way as far as we know.

OK so there's involuntary prostitution in the UK, and in the USA as well.

Only when a C of E priest preaches a sermon in favor of it can we talk about moral equivalence.

Meantime your and mine police seek to suppress it.

[shemp]

Originally posted by Fade


As much as I dislike American, I would have to agree with him.

You are a god damned attention whore. You cry and scream in multiple fora so that everybody takes pity on poor little shemp, then leave for less than a week.

Thank you for your kind words.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Mycroft


I certainly expected your reaction.

In fact, I bet you would have come up with something to turn the US into the bad guy even without with prison photo scandal.
No Mycroft...the US has done absolutely nothing wrong here. I really had to work hard to find something negative in this business. Such trivial things as basic human rights should not be something you need concern yourself with.

But look on the bright side...all you Zionists can now point to the USA and use yourstandard line that you are good as long as someone is worse.

I'm not at all sure what sort of reaction you expected from these prisoner abuse revelations...Angry words and threats of retribution is what I expected, that seems to be what is happening. Remember the photos of the bruised and battered British and US prisoners...remember the chorus of Americans screaming for revenge...does this sound familiar? I guess it doesn't, not to you anyway.

[demon]

Difference is Sadr and his bandits haven’t invaded a foreign country under the pretext of spreading freedom, democracy and human rights. At least Sadr and his henchmen are honest in their claims - kill the occupiers and rape their women whereas Americans claim to be “liberating” Iraqis but instead let them get raped and tortured behind closed doors and in front of digital cameras.

If you want less fanatics then take care of business at home first. Too many churches and not enough schools. That`s a suggestion that might make a difference. Next time the US want to go after religious fundamentalists they can save on the airfare.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
OK so there's involuntary prostitution in the UK, and in the USA as well.

Only when a C of E priest preaches a sermon in favor of it can we talk about moral equivalence.

Meantime your and mine police seek to suppress it.

As someone else pointed out, though, all we have from Sadr's side are words. Abominable ones, yes, but so far only words.

Whereas US forces have already raped at least one Iraqi woman in captivity, and that's just what has already leaked out. We have been told there is more and worse to come.

In the same way, sex slavery in the UK has been an ongoing business for some time. No one has stated in public that they are in favour of it, but nonetheless it keeps going on. Somehow the clients keep managing to find out where the slave brothels are, but the police don't.

These things are worth pointing out because, sadly, there are people in the first world who will use this incident as an opportunity to demonise and dehumanise the people of Iraq. It doesn't make the slavery statement any less abominable to point out these failures in our own societies, but it makes it harder for us to claim absolute moral superiority.

[reprise]

Iraq is free of rape rooms and torture chambers.

from 8 October, 2003 White House press release (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031008-9.html)

One thing is for certain: There won't be any more mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms."

from 12 January, 2004 White House press release (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040112-7.html)

Saddam Hussein now sits in a prison cell, and Iraqi men and women are no longer carried to torture chambers and rape rooms.

from 4 February, 2004 White House press release (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/02/20040204-4.html)

Bush played the "freedom from rape and torture" card repeatedly in his public statements and continued to do so even after it became public knowledge (http://slate.msn.com/id/2100014/) that an investigation into alleged abuses was being conducted. Things like that make it difficult for people to understand how people can still defend and support his actions.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
No Mycroft...the US has done absolutely nothing wrong here.

I didn't say that, who are you talking to? Personally, I was against the war in Iraq, and am truly sickened by how we've treated these prisoners. The real difference between me and you is that I don’t let my initial opposition to the war blind me to the fact that there is a real chance that in the long term we might improve the lives of Iraqi citizens, and that that’s a goal still worth working towards despite these recent revelations. In fact, I think that goal becomes even more important because of these revelations.

I really had to work hard to find something negative in this business. Such trivial things as basic human rights should not be something you need concern yourself with.

Basic human rights are things we all should be concerned with all the time, not just when the U.S.A. is involved.

But look on the bright side...all you Zionists can now point to the USA and use your standard line that you are good as long as someone is worse.

I know you really hate it when people put words in your mouth, so I’m sure you will be able to come up with some quote of mine where I say this. You wouldn’t just make that up, would you?

I'm not at all sure what sort of reaction you expected from these prisoner abuse revelations...Angry words and threats of retribution is what I expected, that seems to be what is happening. Remember the photos of the bruised and battered British and US prisoners...remember the chorus of Americans screaming for revenge...does this sound familiar? I guess it doesn't, not to you anyway.

Right, it’s certainly wrong to respond to barbarity with a call for even greater barbarity. I see that, why can’t you?

[iain]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


OK so there's involuntary prostitution in the UK, and in the USA as well.

Only when a C of E priest preaches a sermon in favor of it can we talk about moral equivalence.

Meantime your and mine police seek to suppress it. I don't believe I mentioned moral equivalence; I think we are in agreement on that point - if at some point coalition women are actually kept as sex slaves sanctioned by the insurgent leaders, I would view that as morally worse than UK prostitution.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by reprise


from 8 October, 2003 White House press release (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031008-9.html)



from 12 January, 2004 White House press release (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040112-7.html)



from 4 February, 2004 White House press release (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/02/20040204-4.html)

Bush played the "freedom from rape and torture" card repeatedly in his public statements and continued to do so even after it became public knowledge (http://slate.msn.com/id/2100014/) that an investigation into alleged abuses was being conducted. Things like that make it difficult for people to understand how people can still defend and support his actions.


wow


Bush stays consistant to his theories despite the facts

Why are those at the top disconnected from the facts, the reality?

[c0rbin]

Does anyone on this forum know, off-hand, the number of courst marshal and congressional hearings against Iraqi rapists and torturers?

What recourse did Iraqi rapists and torturers face under Saddam?

[Skeptic]

But look on the bright side...all you Zionists can now point to the USA and use yourstandard line that you are good as long as someone is worse.

Ah, of course. Sadr is really a zionist stooge. How could I miss that.

[LFTKBS]

Could it be, perhaps, that both are bad?

It's not like one justifies the other.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by LFTKBS
Could it be, perhaps, that both are bad?

It's not like one justifies the other.

Exactly! And the badness of one does not take away from the badness of the other!

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by American
LIAR!!!

YOU SAYS YOU WAS LEAVING AND NOW YOU DIDNT LEAVE!!!!

Everything you say is MEANINGLESS now, 'cause your word is WORTHLESS HERE!!!!

YOU LIED LIAR!!!!!!!!

Don't sit on the fence American. Tell us what you really mean.

[Bearguin]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong


Don't sit on the fence American. Tell us what you really mean.

He meant to say that Elton John totally copied REO Speedwagon.

He just gets confused as to how to say it sometimes.

[Beerina]

With one tiny exception in the US, neither culture, "civilized or otherwise", allows legal prostitution. See, 'cause then the woman would be in charge, and neither society's men allow that.