The LBJ-CIA Assassination of JFK

[Robert Morrow]

Hey, folks, here is my current take on the JFK assassination. Feel free to give me any feedback on what you think. This is essay is based on the cream of the cream of JFK research. I have been studying the JFK assassination pretty intensely for 4 years. If you would have asked me what I thought about the JFK assassination 4 years ago, I would have had no opinion. This essay reflects my current views on this topic. Also, you might want to google some of the suggested reading materials at the end of the essay. - Robert Morrow Austin, TX 512-306-1510

The LBJ-CIA Assassination of JFK

Lyndon Johnson made a dirty deal with CIA Republicans to murder John Kennedy in the 1963 Coup d’Etat. (People like Clint Murchison Sr., H.L. Hunt, Ed Clark, D.H. Byrd, Allen Dulles, Nelson Rockefeller, David Rockefeller, top Nelson Rockefeller aide Henry Kissinger, McGeorge Bundy, George Herbert Walker Bush, Gen. Edward Lansdale (CIA), Jack Crichton, Gen. Charles Willoughby, and J. Edgar Hoover all are excellent candidates for elite sponsorship.) Lyndon Johnson and Allen Dulles may very well have been co-CEOs of the JFK assassination; with the CIA in charge of the killing of JFK, and Lyndon Johnson and (his close friend and neighbor of 19 years in Washington, DC) FBI director J. Edgar Hoover in charge of the cover up.

<snip>

http://lyndonjohnsonmurderedjfk.blogspot.com/


Edited to remove repost of text. Read the complete text at the above link.

[NoahFence]

tl;dr

You lost me at 1963 Coup d’Etat

I'm not sure you understand what that phrase means. No government was overthrown. An individual died.

Its your opinion that a secret cabal led by LBJ (a democrat) overthrew JFK (another democrat)?

It's also your opinion that he did this with the aid of Republicans?

Why wouldn't the Republicans ensure that LBJ then left office after that term, and replace him with, oh, I dunno. A Republican?


Woo is so dumb.

[calebprime]

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22GHW+Bush+is+also+a+notorious+homosexua l+pedophile.%22&hl=en&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=images

This is posted on at least three other forums/blogs, from the looks of it.

[NotJesus]

Here is my current take on the JFK assassination:

Guy named Oswald shot him.

[LSSBB]

Go to this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=222556). This should be merged with that thread.

[JohnG]

My current take is that Robert Morrow needs another hobby.

[Brown]

Here is my current take on the JFK assassination:

Guy named Oswald shot him.Motive doth not make a crime.

In fact, motive is not even a necessary element of proof of first-degree murder.

And the evidence against Oswald as the trigger man was very strong (and is even stronger today than it was in the 1960s), and there is no physical evidence of another trigger man. Assuming that a high government official ordered the hit, therefore, that official must have ordered, directly or indirectly, that Oswald be dealt with. "Dealt with" could mean paying him, blackmailing him, tricking him, brainwashing him ... anything to get him to be the instrument.

And there are just a few small problems with this notion.

[Tomtomkent]

ANYthing that claims knowledge of the case, but cites the Oliver Stone film as a source in the bibliography is just plain wrong.

[timhau]

I have been studying the JFK assassination pretty intensely for 4 years.

My condolences.

[Border Reiver]

Here is my current take on the JFK assassination:

Guy named Oswald shot him.

He was alone too, right?

[jhunter1163]

tl(oony);dr

ETA: Here's your reading assignment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reclaiming_History

To my mind, this book disproves JFK conspiracy theories beyond all doubt, not just beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Biscuit]

That's four years NOT spent looking for the lockness monster, what a shame.

[BaaBaa]

Saw a book with this thesis in a dump bin at a Woolworths', thirty years ago. And the book was ten years old at the time.

"Macbird" was kind of funny, in a "freak the straights!" kind of way.

[SpitfireIX]

KENNEDY SLAIN BY CIA, MAFIA, CASTRO, LBJ, TEAMSTERS, FREEMASONS: President Shot 129 Times from 43 Different Angles (http://o.onionstatic.com/images/articles/article/10584/11221963_101_Kennedy-Slain_jpg_445x1000_upscale_q85.jpg)

:rolleyes:

[JohnG]

ANYthing that claims knowledge of the case, but cites the Oliver Stone film as a source in the bibliography is just plain wrong.


The same Oliver Stone who described his own film as a counter-myth to the "myth" of the Warren Commission. In other words, it's an artistically oblique way of implying that his film JFK is a LIE (probably also gives him an out if anyone he implicates tried to sue him for defamation). Of course the naive, the ignorant, the mentally ill, the intellectually lazy and/or the just not terribly bright aren't aware of this sly/CYA disclaimer of Stone's and so take the film as gospel.

[BravesFan]

The same Oliver Stone who described his own film as a counter-myth to the "myth" of the Warren Commission. In other words, it's an artistically oblique way of implying that his film JFK is a LIE (probably also gives him an out if anyone he implicates tried to sue him for defamation). Of course the naive, the ignorant, the mentally ill, the intellectually lazy and/or the just not terribly bright aren't aware of this sly/CYA disclaimer of Stone's and so take the film as gospel.

i never understood why Stone got so much flack for JFK. It's based on real stuff that happened! Jim Garrison really did bring charges against all of these people and I'm sure that much of the investigation went tin the manner depicted. was it hyper accurate? (no but what movie is?).

I found it entertaining and really, one of Stone's best films. And one of the few good (non old jock) performances by Kevin Costner.

[yodaluver28]

i never understood why Stone got so much flack for JFK. It's based on real stuff that happened! Jim Garrison really did bring charges against all of these people and I'm sure that much of the investigation went tin the manner depicted. was it hyper accurate? (no but what movie is?).

I found it entertaining and really, one of Stone's best films. And one of the few good (non old jock) performances by Kevin Costner.

I agree. The movie is a brilliant historical novel. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not history or a documentary.

[NotJesus]

He was alone too, right?

Probably. Who would bring a date to an assassination?

[Robert Prey]

i never understood why Stone got so much flack for JFK. It's based on real stuff that happened! Jim Garrison really did bring charges against all of these people and I'm sure that much of the investigation went tin the manner depicted. was it hyper accurate? (no but what movie is?).

I found it entertaining and really, one of Stone's best films. And one of the few good (non old jock) performances by Kevin Costner.

When you mix fact with fiction, fact becomes suspect. Also, Kevin Kostner -- one of the worst acting performances ever -- and a pathetic attempt at a southern accent. Also the Viet Nam motive is pure fiction.

[BravesFan]

It's spelled Costner and it wasn't a southern accent it was a New Orleans accent, and not the popular 9th ward one or a deep cajun one like on Swamp people. The accent wasn't great, but his performance was pretty darn effective.

You just don't like it because it goes against your own delusional agenda

[bynmdsue]

One Hundred Errors of Fact and Judgment in Oliver Stone's JFK

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100menu.html

But it does have Costner, Pesci, Jones, Oldman, Rooker, Lemmon, Asner, Matthau, Sutherland, D'Onofrio and Spacek.

Plus Newman and Aunt Jackie.

[BravesFan]

It's a movie based on a real event and the unfortunate investigation by Garrison. But, after all of this is said , it's still a movie.


Don't forget John Candy!!!



edit: btw, Oldman should have gotten a supporting actor nod...but he should have gotten 5 or 6 nominations by now

[Horatius]

Probably. Who would bring a date to an assassination?


I would! Chix Dig Badasses.

[bynmdsue]

Don't forget John Candy!!!

Oh crap! Hell yeah, John Candy! "You as crazy as your mama. Goes to show it's in the genes."

Goddammit. Now I'm gonna end up watching JFK this weekend.

[Captain_Swoop]

Not NOW Silent Singer!

[Sword_Of_Truth]

KENNEDY SLAIN BY CIA, MAFIA, CASTRO, LBJ, TEAMSTERS, FREEMASONS: President Shot 129 Times from 43 Different Angles (http://o.onionstatic.com/images/articles/article/10584/11221963_101_Kennedy-Slain_jpg_445x1000_upscale_q85.jpg)

:rolleyes:

OMG! LBJ was into fat chicks!?

[uke2se]

JFK was a really good film. I still watch it from time to time.

That said, Lord of the Rings is a really good film too, and I watch that from time to time as well.

[LSSBB]

JFK was a really good film. I still watch it from time to time.

That said, Lord of the Rings is a really good film too, and I watch that from time to time as well.

Fargo too. It says in the movie it was based on a true story, you know...

[Myron Proudfoot]

Ts:dr

[Alferd_Packer]

Unfortunately, I have to deal with a family legacy regarding the JFK nonsense.

As a result, I have a special distain for this B.S.

[bynmdsue]

Not NOW Silent Singer!

Sorry Jolly.

[BStrong]

"Robert Morrow" was the author of a book claiming he supplied the rifles (plural) used in the JFK hit.

I didn't dig the book any better than I dig the op.

If I'm not mistaken, the same author then came out with a book about the RFK hit naming a photographer on site as the "real" murderer of RFK

[timhau]

tl(oony);dr

ETA: Here's your reading assignment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reclaiming_History

To my mind, this book disproves JFK conspiracy theories beyond all doubt, not just beyond a reasonable doubt.

Actually, no, it doesn't. It's just simply not possible to prove something beyond irrational doubt. Bugliosi's book should convince any sane person, but the qualifier is still important.

[Robert Morrow]

If you want to get quickly “up to speed” on the JFK assassination, here is what to read:

1) LBJ: Mastermind of JFK’s Assassination by Phillip Nelson
2) JFK and the Unspeakable:Why He Died and Why it Matters by James Douglass


...

Snipped for compliance with Rule 4. Please do not copy and paste lengthy tracts of text available elsewhere. Instead, cite a short passage and either link to or direct others to a link to the source. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

[Robert Morrow]

BStrong - that is a different "Robert Morrow." The author of First Hand Knowledge was a CIA guy and he died in 1998 or 1999. I am age 47.

[Robert Morrow]

Oswald did not try to assassinate Edwin Walker, the ultra right retired general. That is a canard creating by the murderers of John Kennedy in an attempt to posthumously blame the JFK assassination on Oswald. Additionally, Oswald shot no one on 11/22/63.

Anything that Marina Oswald said in 1963-64 is highly suspect because she was 22 years old, with 2 children (including a toddler), could not speak English and government CIA/media was saying that her husband had just murdered the president. Marina was a marionette doll in the hands of the murderers of JFK and they induced to say many ridiculous things.

[Robert Morrow]

Oswald was US intelligence; a fake pro-Castro Marxist. Read these sources to get up to spead on that:

1) "Oswald and the CIA" book by John Newman
2) "Spy Saga: Lee Harvey Oswald and US Intelligence" book by Philip Melanson
3) "History Will Not Absolve Us" by Martin Schotz (Chapter 5 "Oswald and U.S. Intelligence" by Christopher Sharrett)
4) "Me and Lee" book by Judyth Vary Baker (Oswald's mistress in New Orleans, summer 1963)
5) "A Certain Arrogance: U.S. Intelligence's Manipulation of Religious Groups and Individuals in Two World Wars and the Cold War - and the Sacrificing of Lee Harvey Oswald" book by George Michael Evica
6) Google “Lee Harvey Oswald’s reading habits summer 1963” by Judyth Vary Baker

[timhau]

If you want to get quickly “up to speed” on the JFK assassination, here is what to read:

By "up to speed" you mean "neck deep in delusions", don't you?

[calebprime]

Instead of posting a reading list, make a case, in your own words, starting with the most solid evidence you've got.

[Regnad Kcin]

It's nice that crazies have a hobby.

[EventHorizon]

I am age 47.

Holy jeez, that's embarrassing. You'd think that in 47 years of life you'd have been able to figure it out. I was in the rabbit hole for about 8 years or so before I clawed myself out.

[timhau]

BTW, of those four years you spent intensively studying the JFK assassination, how many of them were spent on YouTube?

[BStrong]

BStrong - that is a different "Robert Morrow." The author of First Hand Knowledge was a CIA guy and he died in 1998 or 1999. I am age 47.

I read his book Betrayal.

Pure *********.

His later books are more of the same.

[jargon buster]

If you want to get quickly “up to speed” on the JFK assassination, here is what to read:
Regardless of who killed Kennedy it is to long past to do anything about it.
"The CIA did it", so what, if they did they had their reasons.
Shall we re-open the files on the stabbing of Caesar?

[SpitfireIX]

Shall we re-open the files on the stabbing of Caesar?


It's been done (http://www.forensic-psych.com/articles/artLTimesEtTuJulius3903.php).

[Robert Morrow]

Calebprime, I posted my entire essay, but then the moderator truncated it and posted my blog link on the JFK assassation. If you would like to read it, go to "lyndonjohnsonmurderedjfk (dot) blogspot (dot) com. Then look on the right hand side and scroll down to the "LBJ-CIA Assassination of JFK." This is the latest version of my overview of the JFK assassination. I am constantly adding to/tweaking this essay and it has appeared in various forms over the internet. This is my most updated version.

[Robert Morrow]

The KGB had concluded by Sept., 1965, that Lyndon Johnson had orchestrated the JFK assassination.

Google "JFK assassination Records Review Board Releases Top Secret Records" and read document #1.

It is a memo from Hoover to LBJ on 12/1/66 stating that the KGB had concluded by September, 1965, that Lyndon Johnson was behind the JFK assassination.

...

Document 1

December 1, 1966


REACTION OF SOVIET AND COMMUNIST PARTY OFFICIALS TO THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY


A source who has furnished reliable information in the past and who was in Russia on the date of the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy advised on December 4, 1963, that the news of the assassination of President Kennedy was flashed to the Soviet people almost immediately after its occurrence. It was greeted by great shock and consternation and church bells were tolled in the memory of President Kennedy.

...

http://www.indiana.edu/~oah/nl/98feb/jfk.html#d1 (http://www.indiana.edu/~oah/nl/98feb/jfk.html#d1)

Snipped for compliance with Rule 4. Please do not copy and paste lengthy tracts of text available elsewhere. Instead, quote a short passage and cite a link to the source. Thanks in advance for your anticipated cooperation.

[BStrong]

It's pretty bad when a newcomer signs up to pimp their website, but even worse when said website is the same old tired CT crap.

[calebprime]

Calebprime, I posted my entire essay, but then the moderator truncated it...

No, I was suggesting the opposite. Instead of posting an entire essay, try to discuss your strongest points.

There are a number of people here who will engage with you if you do it that way.

Your previous long post will be truncated, with a link, as well, because it also occurs on Amazon.com.

This site is for discussion, not posting wall o' texts.

[SpitfireIX]

The KGB had concluded by Sept., 1965, that Lyndon Johnson had orchestrated the JFK assassination.


No, they hadn't.

It is a memo from Hoover to LBJ on 12/1/66 stating that the KGB had concluded by September, 1965, that Lyndon Johnson was behind the JFK assassination.


It doesn't say that.

This is one of the jewels produced by the ARRB: a memo from J. Edgar Hoover dated 12/1/66 (and sent to LBJ on that day) which stated that as of September, 1965 the Soviets were telling their KGB agents in America that they had concluded that Lyndon Johnson was behind the JFK assassination.


Ditto.

Also, go to page 1,492-1,496 of Doug Horne's Volume V of his book "Inside the Assassinations Record Review Board." The leader of the FBI records team Phil Golrick told author Doug Horne that "the specific language in the FBI report indicates that the information was obtained through electronic surveillance, not human intelligence, and it should be considered a very reliable record of what the KGB had been telling its own people behind closed doors in its own Residency in New York City." (Horne, p. 1493, Volume 5, Inside the ARRB).

I consider this to be of GARGANTUAN significance in understanding the JFK assassination. It is up there with Gen. Ed Lansdale being photographed at TSBD. Up there with Antonio Veciana identifying "Maurice Bishop" aka David Atlee Phillips with Oswald.


Here (http://www.prouty.org/tramps1.jpg) is the photo allegedly of Lansdale's back. Prove it's actually him, and not a figment of Fletcher Prouty's fevered imagination.

And from the HSCA's report (http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/), pp. 136-137:

The committee was left with the task of evaluating Veciana's story, both with respect to the existence of Maurice Bishop and the alleged meeting with Oswald, by assessing Veciana's credibility. It found several reasons to believe that Veciana had been less than candid:

First, Veciana waited more than 10 years after the assassination to reveal his story.
Second, Veciana would not supply proof of the $253,000 payment from Bishop, claiming fear of the Internal Revenue Service.
Third, Veciana could not point to a single witness to his meetings with Bishop, much less with Oswald.
Fourth, Veciana did little to help the committee identify Bishop.
In the absence of corroboration or independent substantiation, the committee could not, therefore, credit Veciana's story of having met with Lee Harvey Oswald.


Fail.

This is extremely important because it is coming from Soviet internal intelligence, not their propaganda organs (who were accusing the Texas oil men closely associated with LBJ). FBI counter-intelligence discovered in the mid 1960's that the Soviets believed internally that Lyndon Johnson was behind the JFK assassination. The Russians at that time had the largest foreign intelligence agency in the world. They were quite competent, too, having stolen our complete atomic bomb secrets in the early mid 1940's.


Again, the memo does not say any such thing. Further, it wasn't overly difficlult for the Soviets to obtain data on the Manhattan Project when some of the people working on it were Communists. :rolleyes:

<snip>

On September 16, 1965, this same source reported that the KGB Residency in New York City received instructions approximately September 16, 1965, from KGB headquarters in Moscow to develop all possible information concerning President Lyndon B. Johnson's character, background, personal friends, family, and from which quarters he derives his support in his position as President of the United States. Our source added that in the instructions from Moscow, it was indicated that "now" the KGB was in possession of data [B]purporting to indicate President Johnson was responsible for the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy. KGB headquarters indicated that in view of this information, it was necessary for the Soviet Government to know the existing personal relationship between President Johnson and the Kennedy family, particularly between President Johnson and Robert and "Ted" Kennedy.

<snip>[bolding mine]


You need to look up the meaning of the word "purport."

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The KGB had concluded by Sept., 1965, that Lyndon Johnson had orchestrated the JFK assassination.

I'm shocked, SHOCKED... that after a known communist had murdered the President of the United States that the KGB would sloppily and ham-fistedly try to point fingers elsewhere.

[Robert Morrow]

Spitfire, I think is pretty clear that the KGB by Sept, 1965 had come into possession of material that had convinced the then world's largest foreign intelligence service that Lyndon Johnson had orchestrated the JFK assassination. The Russians certainly had a keen interest in determining who *really* killed JFK because they were in danger of being framed for it. The best scholarship considers Oswald to be fake defector, a US intelligence agent. But in 1963 Oswald had the public persona of a pro-Castro Marxist, which made him easy to posthumously frame for the JFK assassination.

Here is Hoover's key paragraph:

"On September 16, 1965, this same source reported that the KGB Residency in New York City received instructions approximately September 16, 1965, from KGB headquarters in Moscow to develop all possible information concerning President Lyndon B. Johnson's character, background, personal friends, family, and from which quarters he derives his support in his position as President of the United States. Our source added that in the instructions from Moscow, it was indicated that "now" the KGB was in possession of data purporting to indicate President Johnson was responsible for the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy. KGB headquarters indicated that in view of this information, it was necessary for the Soviet Government to know the existing personal relationship between President Johnson and the Kennedy family, particularly between President Johnson and Robert and "Ted" Kennedy."

And this is worth repeating as well:

The leader of the FBI records team Phil Golrick told author Doug Horne that "the specific language in the FBI report indicates that the information was obtained through electronic surveillance, not human intelligence, and it should be considered a very reliable record of what the KGB had been telling its own people behind closed doors in its own Residency in New York City." (Horne, p. 1493, Volume 5, Inside the ARRB).

So this is what had really concluded about the JFK assassination for their own private uses. Interestly, the Russian press has been saying for 48 years that Texas oil men, Lyndon Johnson's biggest supporters, were behind the JFK assassination.

This is confirmed by what Lyndon Johnson told his mistress Madeleine Brown on 12/31/63 as well as by the accounts of Barr McClellan who worked closely with LBJ's intimate and close friend Ed Clark, who was his point of contact with the Texas oil men, particularly Clint Murchison.

[Robert Morrow]

Google "Education Forum Pravda H.L. Hunt" for the web link

After 4 years of research into the JFK assassination, I agree with Pravda. Here is Pravda in 2007:

"Many experts on America believe that the conspiracy in Dallas was organized by a group of billionaires from Texas with Harold Hunt at head. The man was considered the world’s richest man of that time. The Texas businessman took an active part in the political life of America; he nominated Texas senator Lyndon Johnson for presidential election in 1960. The first attempt to promote Johnson was a failure, but Hunt finished the game in Dallas as a result of which Kennedy was killed and his candidate came to the White House."

In 1963-64, the controlled Soviet press was saying "Texas oil barons played a fatal role" in the JFK assassination.

[Robert Morrow]

Spitfire, it was not just Col. Fletcher Prouty who identified Ed Lansdale at TSBD; it was also Gen. Victor Krulak who also worked closely with Lansdale. I do think CIA and Air Force general Ed Lansdale was in Dallas to supervise the JFK assassination.

Google: "Krulak Letter Re: Dealey Plaza Photos And Lansdale Identity"

15 March 1985

Mr. Fletcher Prouty
Alexandria, Virginia

Dear Fletch:

As I read your interesting letter it is plain that you have not wanted for interest or achievement in your life. It has to have been exciting and rewarding too.

Mine has been a lively existence too. I had much to do with Vietnam from '64 to '68, and was loudly disenchanted with what went on and how. I recorded it as part of my book First to Fight that came out a few months ago.

I've also spent ten years in the newspaper business (a most useful education) and now write a syndicated weekly column. I wrote another book, Organization for National Security that resulted in my testifying before a Senate committee.

All taken together, a stirring life.

As to your chronicle concerning the JFK assassination period, I remember your going to Antarctica. I was in the Pentagon at the time of the tragedy but have no recollection of where Lansdale was.

The pictures.-- The two policemen are carrying shotguns, not rifles. Their caps are different (one a white chinstrap, one black). One has a Dallas police shoulder patch, one does not and their caps differ from that of another police officer in photo 4. Reasonable conclusion -- they are either reservists or phonys. And, as you know, city cops don't have anything to do with Sheriff's offices.

As to photo no. 1. That is indeed a picture of Ed Lansdale. The haircut, the stoop, the twisted left hand, the large class ring. It's Lansdale. What in the world was he doing there? Has anyone ever asked him and who was the photographer? Why did he take the pictures? What did he do with them?

I have examined my own records and find no clue that would help. Suffice to say, it is a fascinating proposition.

I am returning your pictures.

Best regards always.

Sincerely,

[signed, Brute Krulak]

[timhau]

I ask again: how much of your 4 years of JFK assassination studies was spent googling and watching YouTube?

[SpitfireIX]

Spitfire, I think is pretty clear that the KGB by Sept, 1965 had come into possession of material that had convinced the then world's largest foreign intelligence service that Lyndon Johnson had orchestrated the JFK assassination. The Russians certainly had a keen interest in determining who *really* killed JFK because they were in danger of being framed for it. The best scholarship considers Oswald to be fake defector, a US intelligence agent. But in 1963 Oswald had the public persona of a pro-Castro Marxist, which made him easy to posthumously frame for the JFK assassination.


No. What is "pretty clear" is that you are desperate to latch on to any information that appears to confirm your belief in an LBJ/CIA conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy, and to reject any information that tends to disconfirm it.

Here is Hoover's key paragraph:

"On September 16, 1965, this same source reported that the KGB Residency in New York City received instructions approximately September 16, 1965, from KGB headquarters in Moscow to develop all possible information concerning President Lyndon B. Johnson's character, background, personal friends, family, and from which quarters he derives his support in his position as President of the United States. Our source added that in the instructions from Moscow, it was indicated that "now" the KGB was in possession of data purporting to indicate President Johnson was responsible for the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy. KGB headquarters indicated that in view of this information, it was necessary for the Soviet Government to know the existing personal relationship between President Johnson and the Kennedy family, particularly between President Johnson and Robert and "Ted" Kennedy."


I read the paragraph, quoted it in my response to your post, and bolded the key word, "purported," which you are ignoring. Your reposting the paragraph doesn't magically make it mean what you wish it to mean.

The definition of "purport (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/purport)" from dictionary.com: "to present, especially deliberately, the appearance of being; profess or claim, often falsely [bolding mine]". There is no indication whatsoever that the Soviets accepted the information at face value; in fact the opposite is implied. And even if they did believe it, that would in no way constitute any kind of proof. Recent history is replete with instances of intelligence organizations', including the KGB's, having drawing incorrect conclusions. Google "KGB and 'intelligence failure'" and you'll find several examples.

And this is worth repeating as well:

<snip>


Irrelevant. The accuracy of the FBI's report of what the Soviets were saying is not in question. Your interpretation of what the Soviets were saying is in question.

So this is what had really concluded about the JFK assassination for their own private uses.


No. See above.

Interestly, the Russian press has been saying for 48 years that Texas oil men, Lyndon Johnson's biggest supporters, were behind the JFK assassination.


And the Cubans have been saying for over 40 years that the moon landings were faked. What does that prove?

This is confirmed by what Lyndon Johnson told his mistress Madeleine Brown on 12/31/63 . . .


There is no evidence that Brown had an affair with LBJ, or that he ever told her any of the things she claimed, other than her own word. She had a clear financial interest in telling the most sensational and salacious tale she could, in order to increase sales of her book. See here (http://jfkhistory.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=51054809ac7f38d83695e1e4187da8 7f&topic=1278.msg15690#msg15690) for a thorough debunking of her claims.

. . . as well as by the accounts of Barr McClellan who worked closely with LBJ's intimate and close friend Ed Clark, who was his point of contact with the Texas oil men, particularly Clint Murchison.


From Wikipedia's article on Barr McClellan:

After McClellan made his allegations on the History Channel on November 18, 2003 (in "The Guilty Men," part 9 of "The Men Who Killed Kennedy"), former presidents Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter protested, and former LBJ staffers Bill Moyers and Jack Valenti asked the History Channel to investigate the charges. On April 2, 2004, after having three historians examine the charges, the History Channel issued a press release stating that the claim of LBJ's complicity "is entirely unfounded and does not hold up to scrutiny. ... [the show] fell short of the high standards that the network sets for itself. The History Channel apologizes to its viewers and to Mrs. [Lady Bird] Johnson and her family for airing the show."[note omitted]


The source of the above is Bugliosi, p. 925.

[Walter Ego]

Go to this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=222556). This should be merged with that thread.

Agreed. Robert Morrow is not proposing anything that Robert Prey has not claimed on that thread. Prey also believes that LBJ was the perp.

[SpitfireIX]

Spitfire, it was not just Col. Fletcher Prouty who identified Ed Lansdale at TSBD; it was also Gen. Victor Krulak who also worked closely with Lansdale. I do think CIA and Air Force general Ed Lansdale was in Dallas to supervise the JFK assassination.


My point wasn't that the man doesn't resemble Lansdale from behind. My point was that the resemblance proves absolutely nothing. Other conspiracy theorists have claimed that photos taken around the time of the assassination show E. Howard Hunt, Joseph Milteer, and even Lee Harvey Oswald. Those photos were all taken from the front, and the claims have all been proven to be cases of mistaken identity.

Further, attention is directed to this Wikipedia talk page (http://www.territorioscuola.com/wikipedia/en.wikipedia.php?title=Talk:Assassination_of_John_ F._Kennedy/Archive_9#Major_General_Edward_Lansdale_identified _at_Texas_School_Book_Depository) where you had your head handed to you on the issue of Lansdale's allegedly being in the photo.

[bynmdsue]

That History Channel press release is pretty funny considering their current programming line-up.

[Noztradamus]

Originally Posted by LSSBB
Go to this thread. This should be merged with that thread.

Agreed. Robert Morrow is not proposing anything that Robert Prey has not claimed on that thread. Prey also believes that LBJ was the perp.

NO! Can you imagine the confusion. One of them will make a claim, be asked in a friendly manner to justify it. Then both of them will respond, either both arguing they never made the claim, or both supporting it, on different and probably contradictary grounds.

Better to keep them isolated.

[Walter Ego]

Google "Education Forum Pravda H.L. Hunt" for the web link

After 4 years of research into the JFK assassination, I agree with Pravda. Here is Pravda in 2007:

"Many experts on America believe that the conspiracy in Dallas was organized by a group of billionaires from Texas with Harold Hunt at head. The man was considered the world’s richest man of that time. The Texas businessman took an active part in the political life of America; he nominated Texas senator Lyndon Johnson for presidential election in 1960. The first attempt to promote Johnson was a failure, but Hunt finished the game in Dallas as a result of which Kennedy was killed and his candidate came to the White House."

In 1963-64, the controlled Soviet press was saying "Texas oil barons played a fatal role" in the JFK assassination.

So basically you believe the Soviet propaganda about the JFK assassination. You are not the first conspiracy theorist to do so. Russian propaganda put out in the wake of the assassination is still circulating on the internet (usually unsourced but accepted as gospel by the conspiracy hucksters). Khrushchev must be smiling up from his grave.

[Robert Morrow]

Walter, why should I not believe Soviet propaganda on the JFK assassination especially when it is consistent with their internal beliefs as articulated by the KGB to their assets to the KGB Residency in NYC (that FBI counterintelligence intercepted)?

And especially when their is a mountain of evidence unearthed by American researchers - not on the government payroll - that support's the Russian view.

And *who* do you think is credible on this topic? Surely not CIA Operation Mockingbird assets in the American media!

1) Google "The CIA and the Media" by Carl Bernstein
2) Google "CIA Instruction to Media Assets 4/1/67"
3) Google "Limit CIA Role to Intelligence" Harry Truman on 12/22/63
4) Google "Dwight Eisenhower Farewell Address" on 1/17/61
5) Google "Jerry Policoff NY Times." Read everything Jerry Policoff ever wrote about the CIA media cover up of the JFK assassination.

[EventHorizon]

Gotta love the Investi-Googlers.

[Robert Morrow]

Timhau,

I have 300+ books on the JFK assassination. I have read 30 of the cream of the cream JFK books and read relevant passages or skimmed the rest. I have found the internet to be an absolutely invaluable source for learning on the JFK assassination. I have done much reading on the internet about the JFK assassination. With every medium, you have to read and watch critically. Oftentimes the National Enquirer or even a porn magazine is a more credible source of information on the JFK assassination than the NYT, Wash Post, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX. But if you read selectively and with a critical mind you can even learn from those sources as well.

Of course I do watch YouTube videos as well.

[timhau]

Oftentimes the National Enquirer or even a porn magazine is a more credible source of information on the JFK assassination than the NYT, Wash Post, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX.

I buy porn mags only for the investigative journalism too.

[BravesFan]

Timhau,

I have 300+ books on the JFK assassination. I have read 30 of the cream of the cream JFK books and read relevant passages or skimmed the rest. I have found the internet to be an absolutely invaluable source for learning on the JFK assassination. I have done much reading on the internet about the JFK assassination. With every medium, you have to read and watch critically. Oftentimes the National Enquirer or even a porn magazine is a more credible source of information on the JFK assassination than the NYT, Wash Post, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX. But if you read selectively and with a critical mind you can even learn from those sources as well.

Of course I do watch YouTube videos as well.

Stundie worthy!! Congrats!

[Robert Morrow]

Here is a web link for photos of Ed Lansdale - folks can decide for themselves if it is him or not at TSBD. It is a data point. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=edward+lansdale+jfk+assassination&gs_sm=1&gs_upl=1777l5190l0l7841l16l14l0l2l2l0l386l1808l4.5 .1.2l13l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=793&bih=521&wrapid=tlif133055825241110&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=MLVOT9CIPK_isQLExZH7Dw

And it certainly is a fact that 2 men of high positions: Col. Fletcher Prouty and Gen. Victor Krulak (who fired Lansdale one time) are of the opinion that the man in the photo at TSBD is Ed Lansdale. It is my *opinion* too that it is Lansdale - the rectangular head being one give away.

JFK researchers have determined by looking at the Lansdale papers that he was indeed in a Fort Worth hotel around the time of 11/22/63. David Atlee Phillips, big CIA guy, was from Fort Worth and his own family suspected he was involved in the JFK assassination.

[BStrong]

Here is a web link for photos of Ed Lansdale - folks can decide for themselves if it is him or not at TSBD. It is a data point. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=edward+lansdale+jfk+assassination&gs_sm=1&gs_upl=1777l5190l0l7841l16l14l0l2l2l0l386l1808l4.5 .1.2l13l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=793&bih=521&wrapid=tlif133055825241110&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=MLVOT9CIPK_isQLExZH7Dw

And it certainly is a fact that 2 men of high positions: Col. Fletcher Prouty and Gen. Victor Krulak (who fired Lansdale one time) are of the opinion that the man in the photo at TSBD is Ed Lansdale. It is my *opinion* too that it is Lansdale - the rectangular head being one give away.

JFK researchers have determined by looking at the Lansdale papers that he was indeed in a Fort Worth hotel around the time of 11/22/63. David Atlee Phillips, big CIA guy, was from Fort Worth and his own family suspected he was involved in the JFK assassination.

I wouldn't trust Prouty to feed my dog, and there are a hell of a lot of folks out there with rectangular heads.

Johnny and Edgar Winter are from Texas too - where were they in '63?

[EventHorizon]

An inability to learn after reading 300+ books is not really something I'd be shouting out for the whole world to hear, but that might be just me.

[Garrison]

After 50 years of 'investigating' the Kennedy CT's still can't agree on a theory of the crime. and as for a trigger man, how many dozens of them have been proposed? Worse since just about everybody who was ever allegedly involved is dead all they can do is rake over the same old evidence for the umpteenth time.

[Robert Morrow]

I think that what Lyndon Johnson told Madeleine Brown on the night of 12/31/63 is the most important piece of evidence to understanding the JFK assassination.

Madeleine Duncan Brown was the most beloved mistress of Lyndon Johnson for 21 years from 1948 until 1969. Madeleine is one of the truth tellers and keys to understanding the ugly reality of the JFK assassination. She had a son Steven Mark with Lyndon in 1950. Madeleine lived from 1925 to 2002 and was madly in love with Lyndon Johnson when she wrote the book Texas in the Morning 24 years after the death of LBJ. She makes some BLOCKBUSTER revelations in this book, such as:

In the night of 12/31/63, just 6 weeks after the JFK assassination, Madeleine asked Lyndon Johnson:

"Lyndon, you know that a lot of people believe you had something to do with President Kennedy's assassination."
He shot up out of bed and began pacing and waving his arms screaming like a madman. I was scared!
"That's bull___, Madeleine Brown!" he yelled. "Don't tell me you believe that ____!"
"Of course not." I answered meekly, trying to cool his temper.
"It was Texas oil and those %$%& renegade intelligence bastards in Washington." [said Lyndon Johnson, the new president; Texas in the Morning, p. 189]

[LBJ told this to Madeleine on 1/1/64 in the locally famous Driskill Hotel, Austin, TX in room #254. They spent New Year's Eve `64 together here (12/31/63). Room #254 was the room that LBJ used to have rendezvous’ with his girlfriends - today it is known as the LBJ Room, and rents for $600-1,000/night as a Presidential suite at the Driskill; located on the Mezzanine Level.]

[SpitfireIX]

I think that what Lyndon Johnson told Madeleine Brown on the night of 12/31/63 is the most important piece of evidence to understanding the JFK assassination.

<snip>




What part of "There is no evidence that Brown had an affair with LBJ, or that he ever told her any of the things she claimed, other than her own word" did you not understand?

[azzthom]

I think that what Lyndon Johnson told Madeleine Brown on the night of 12/31/63 is the most important piece of evidence to understanding the JFK assassination.

Madeleine Duncan Brown was the most beloved mistress of Lyndon Johnson for 21 years from 1948 until 1969. Madeleine is one of the truth tellers and keys to understanding the ugly reality of the JFK assassination. She had a son Steven Mark with Lyndon in 1950. Madeleine lived from 1925 to 2002 and was madly in love with Lyndon Johnson when she wrote the book Texas in the Morning 24 years after the death of LBJ. She makes some BLOCKBUSTER revelations in this book, such as:

In the night of 12/31/63, just 6 weeks after the JFK assassination, Madeleine asked Lyndon Johnson:

"Lyndon, you know that a lot of people believe you had something to do with President Kennedy's assassination."
He shot up out of bed and began pacing and waving his arms screaming like a madman. I was scared!
"That's bull___, Madeleine Brown!" he yelled. "Don't tell me you believe that ____!"
"Of course not." I answered meekly, trying to cool his temper.
"It was Texas oil and those %$%& renegade intelligence bastards in Washington." [said Lyndon Johnson, the new president; Texas in the Morning, p. 189]

[LBJ told this to Madeleine on 1/1/64 in the locally famous Driskill Hotel, Austin, TX in room #254. They spent New Year's Eve `64 together here (12/31/63). Room #254 was the room that LBJ used to have rendezvous’ with his girlfriends - today it is known as the LBJ Room, and rents for $600-1,000/night as a Presidential suite at the Driskill; located on the Mezzanine Level.]

...and here's an analysis of her claims.
http://dperry1943.com/browns.html

[Robert Morrow]

What part of "There is no evidence that Brown had an affair with LBJ, or that he ever told her any of the things she claimed, other than her own word" did you not understand?

Spitfire, Madeleine Brown has been vetted by a whole generation of JFK researchers. Dozens if not hundreds of them met her, talked with her. Some even interviewed her 20 or 30 or 40 times. She most certainly was a key mistress of Lyndon Johnson. Jim Marrs investigated her with the Texas press corps and found out, yes, Madeleine was a well known mistress of LBJ.

I also know 2 of Madeleine's friends Betty Windsor and Connie Kritzberg - they knew Madeleine Brown for perhaps 20 years and are very familiar with her story and high credibility.

Researcher Casey Quindlan interviewed her at least 20 times. Jim Fetzer at least 30 times. Her deep insider knowledge of Lyndon Johnson and his inner circle vouched for her bona fides.

Another person who knew her well was James Tague, the man who was almost hit by bullet at TSBD. She became a good friend of his and they often traded stories and information.

That does mean I believe *everything* that Madeleine ever said, but I think her essential story is golden and highly credible.

I also took a Dallas tour last fall 2011 at JFK Lancer and the tour guide said he knew Madeleine's son Stephen Mark (1950-1990) and his words to me were that you would not even need a DNA test to know that Stephen was LBJ's son - they were practically clones.

And, finally, the very fact that Dave Perry would even seriously question Madeleine's credentials as a longtime and key LBJ mistress is a sign that Dave Perry is not really looking for the truth, but rather to act as a disinformationist on the JFK assassination.

Also, there is another longtime JFK researcher Ed Tatro who knew Madeleine Brown extremely well. In fact, he told me he re-united Madeleine with the manager of Clint Murchison's Del Charro hotel and they hugged each other like long lost friends and smiled.

Madeleinne used to vacation with LBJ at the Del Charro and that just confirmed it.

[calebprime]

Madeleine Brown was convicted of forgery and sentenced to 10 years probation. That doesn't do much to support her credibility.

What else?

[Walter Ego]

Walter, why should I not believe Soviet propaganda on the JFK assassination especially when it is consistent with their internal beliefs as articulated by the KGB to their assets to the KGB Residency in NYC (that FBI counterintelligence intercepted)?

Your willingness to be a useful idiot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot) for long discredited communist propaganda is not surprising. In fact, there is a long history of this sort of thing in the JFK assassination "research community."

KGB records released in 1999 (http://www.jfk-online.com/mitrokhin.html) reveal that the Soviets passed money to Mark Lane in the 1960s to aid in the dissemination of his "discoveries" about the assassination and that the first JKF assassination conspiracy book published in U.S. (written by German communist Joachim Joesten) was issued by a New York publisher covertly financed by Moscow. (Read about the Soviets dezinformatsiya campaign to link Clay Shaw to the CIA here (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/lobster.htm) and here (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sii.htm).)

Interestingly, though, the one thing the Soviets did not believe is that the poorly educated and emotionally unstable Oswald could be a U.S. government agent of any kind. Having had a good look at him, up close and in person, the KBG (who knew a thing or two about the spy game), wouldn't touch Oswald with a ten-foot pole, not even to try to "turn" him as a double agent.

[dafydd]

Calebprime, I posted my entire essay, but then the moderator truncated it and posted my blog link on the JFK assassation. If you would like to read it, go to "lyndonjohnsonmurderedjfk (dot) blogspot (dot) com. Then look on the right hand side and scroll down to the "LBJ-CIA Assassination of JFK." This is the latest version of my overview of the JFK assassination. I am constantly adding to/tweaking this essay and it has appeared in various forms over the internet. This is my most updated version.

There is much better fiction available.

[dafydd]

Timhau,

I have 300+ books on the JFK assassination. I have read 30 of the cream of the cream JFK books and read relevant passages or skimmed the rest. I have found the internet to be an absolutely invaluable source for learning on the JFK assassination. I have done much reading on the internet about the JFK assassination. With every medium, you have to read and watch critically. Oftentimes the National Enquirer or even a porn magazine is a more credible source of information on the JFK assassination than the NYT, Wash Post, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX. But if you read selectively and with a critical mind you can even learn from those sources as well.

Of course I do watch YouTube videos as well.

One handed studying. That's a new one on me.

[TheRedWorm]

I'll post this again, as it seems appropriate:

Shot 1: LHO lines up the scope for a head shot on JFK, misses, and can't see the splash.
Shot 2: LHO aims center of mass to try to determine round placement.
Shot 3: LHO sees that rounds are impacting most likely centerline but high (shot mid body, and roughly hit throat based on JFK's reaction). Seeing this, he aims below the head to try and hit the same, fires, and cycles the bolt because he couldn't see the obviously mortal wound. LHO then sees said wound and leaves.

I think that this is eminently plausible. Robert, can you do the same thing for the supposed conspiracy shots?

[theprestige]

why should I not believe Soviet propaganda

I can think of at least two reasons: One, it's propaganda. Two, it's Soviet propaganda.

I mean, I can see believing, or at least going along with British propaganda during World War 2, but what you're talking about here is taking credulousness to a whole other level.

[Dcdrac]

Sheer fantasy

One person killed JFK, lee Harvey Oswald a washed up loser, failed reovlutionary even the USSR chucked him back as an annoyance....

[JimBenArm]

Oswald. With the rifle. In the book depository.

[CurtC]

Shot 3: LHO sees that rounds are impacting most likely centerline but high (shot mid body, and roughly hit throat based on JFK's reaction). Seeing this, he aims below the head to try and hit the same, fires, and cycles the bolt because he couldn't see the obviously mortal wound. LHO then sees said wound and leaves.

I never thought about this tidbit. The casing from the third shot was found on the floor. I don't know much about guns, but does this mean that he cycled the bolt after firing the third shot? Or is the empty casing ejected automatically by the recoil?

I guess I've always assumed that the empty casings were ejected automatically so there's no need to postulate that he cycled the bolt once more after the mortal shot.

[CORed]

I never thought about this tidbit. The casing from the third shot was found on the floor. I don't know much about guns, but does this mean that he cycled the bolt after firing the third shot? Or is the empty casing ejected automatically by the recoil?

I guess I've always assumed that the empty casings were ejected automatically so there's no need to postulate that he cycled the bolt once more after the mortal shot.

It was a bolt-action rifle, not a semi-automatic. The casing is not ejected until the bolt is cycled.

[TheRedWorm]

I never thought about this tidbit. The casing from the third shot was found on the floor. I don't know much about guns, but does this mean that he cycled the bolt after firing the third shot? Or is the empty casing ejected automatically by the recoil?

I guess I've always assumed that the empty casings were ejected automatically so there's no need to postulate that he cycled the bolt once more after the mortal shot.


Yeah, I didn't appreciate the nuances of using a scoped rifle until relatively recently, and thus didn't understand why a bolt action would leave 3 shell casings in the TSBD. After lots of shooting, however, my scenario seems plausible. To me, anyway.

[kookbreaker]

I never thought about this tidbit. The casing from the third shot was found on the floor. I don't know much about guns, but does this mean that he cycled the bolt after firing the third shot? Or is the empty casing ejected automatically by the recoil?

I guess I've always assumed that the empty casings were ejected automatically so there's no need to postulate that he cycled the bolt once more after the mortal shot.

One of the things one 'picks up' by training with a bolt-action is to cycle the bolt instinctively. Even if there were only 3 cartridges in the gun and he knew that he probably would have cycled the last fired round out of borderline muscle-memory.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Walter, why should I not believe Soviet propaganda on the JFK assassination

You mean aside from the 100 million+ murdered by communism from 1917 to 1990?

[TheRedWorm]

You mean aside from the 100 million+ murdered by communism from 1917 to 1990?


[Eye-rolling nitpick mode]Communism never killed anyone. Just governments based on communist ideals.[/Eye-rolling nitpick mode]

[Brattus]

I'll post this again, as it seems appropriate:

Shot 1: LHO lines up the scope for a head shot on JFK, misses, and can't see the splash.
Shot 2: LHO aims center of mass to try to determine round placement.
Shot 3: LHO sees that rounds are impacting most likely centerline but high (shot mid body, and roughly hit throat based on JFK's reaction). Seeing this, he aims below the head to try and hit the same, fires, and cycles the bolt because he couldn't see the obviously mortal wound. LHO then sees said wound and leaves.

I think that this is eminently plausible. Robert, can you do the same thing for the supposed conspiracy shots?

I will take a guess that this would be Roberts response.

Shot 1: LBJ lines up scope for head shot. LHO walks into room and sees LBJ in window with rifle. LHO throws coke bottle at LBJ causing him to miss head shot.
Shot 2: LBJ aims center of mass. LHO lunges at LBJ but trips over boxes of books. LBJ fires striking JFK in the throat.
Shot 3: LBJ aims below the head to try and hit the same. LHO yells down the stairs that the Vice President of the United States is trying to shoot the President of the United States through their window. LBJ then sees the mortal wound and leaves. LHO then sees it's his break time and goes down to the break room for a coke.

[Walter Ego]

You mean aside from the 100 million+ murdered by communism from 1917 to 1990?

Here's Walter Cronkite reporting the Soviet response to the assassination.QKrQCOI4PykI found the video on this page (http://gizadeathstar.com/2011/11/cbs-report-walter-cronkite-on-soviet-response-to-jfk-assassination/) with this commentary. (The comments from readers are, needless to say, amusing.)

What interests me here are the statements reported by Cronkite of the Soviet spokesman Valentin Zorin,, who quite rightly pointed out that the security measures around President Kennedy on that fateful day were not what normal security protocols intended. Zorin also points out that the people behind it were essentially right wing elements, a kind of “rogue” or hidden government, and opposed to Kennedy’s attempts at thawing Soviet-American relations. This is, it should be noted, as I do in LBJ and the Conspiracy to Kill Kennedy, an argument for the involvement of powerful people within the government, for only such people could remove the President’s normal security protocols. It is chilling too, to see how CBS news compliantly dismissed Zorin’s trenchant observation as just more “Soviet propaganda.”

Pravda was dishing out the party line on the assassination as late as 2007 (http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2007/09/pravda-says-truth-about-kennedy.html)and the state run Russia Today cable channel is a purveyor of anti-American conspiracy theories to this day. The audience of useful idiots eager to lap up this swill hasn't apparently declined with the end of the Cold War and the breakup of the USSR.

[timhau]

Pravda was dishing out the party line on the assassination as late as 2007 (http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2007/09/pravda-says-truth-about-kennedy.html)

I have to wonder if it was Pravda the newspaper or Pravda Online, which is the Russian equivalent of WorldNutDaily. Neither is a source I'd give much credence to, but the latter is more openly crazy.

[Ranb]

I have read 30 of the cream of the cream JFK books and read relevant passages or skimmed the rest.

Here is something for you. It is what I call my idiot check. Remember CE 399? The bullet that was claimed to have wounded JFK and Connally? My idiot check is to see if the author calls the bullet pristine. Most JFK CT promoters like to show side view of the bullet only. They also conveniently use a very loose definition of the word pristine when calling it the "pristine bullet".

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/Issues_and_evidence/Single-Bullet_theory/Pristine_bullet/Pristine_bullet.html

But if you look at the base of the bullet, you can see how squashed out of round it is. So you have to ask yourself, if anyone calls CE 399 pristine, do they really know what they are talking about? Can you really trust them if they are this blind or prejudiced?

How many of your "cream of the cream" authors have ever described CE 399 as immaculate (pristine)? Here is something almost everyone who has ever recovered a bullet shot out of a rifled barrel knows. Once the powder in the cartridge ignites, the bullet is no longer pristine. Why don't your cream of the cream know this?

Ranb

[TheRedWorm]

I will take a guess that this would be Roberts response.

Shot 1: LBJ lines up scope for head shot. LHO walks into room and sees LBJ in window with rifle. LHO throws coke bottle at LBJ causing him to miss head shot.
Shot 2: LBJ aims center of mass. LHO lunges at LBJ but trips over boxes of books. LBJ fires striking JFK in the throat.
Shot 3: LBJ aims below the head to try and hit the same. LHO yells down the stairs that the Vice President of the United States is trying to shoot the President of the United States through their window. LBJ then sees the mortal wound and leaves. LHO then sees it's his break time and goes down to the break room for a coke.


:D Made my day.

[Regnad Kcin]

The best scholarship considers Oswald to be fake defector, a US intelligence agent.No.

[Regnad Kcin]

Stundie worthy!! Congrats!It's that good!

[Walter Ego]

The hit-and-run spammer has left and gone away. :(

Too bad. This might have been an amusing thread. Did anybody look at his blog? Mr. Morrow, a resident of Austin, Texas, (according to some biographical info found here (http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17364)) seems to be suffering from a pronounced case of LBJ derangement syndrome judging by this post on his blog entitled (ready for it?) Was Lyndon Johnson homosexual? Bisexual? Did he have sex with his grandmother? (http://lyndonjohnsonmurderedjfk.blogspot.com/2012/03/was-lyndon-johnson-homosexual-bisexual.html)

No comment except that Austin is also the home base of Alex Jones. Connect the dots, people! ;)

[Robert Morrow]

Walter, did it ever occur to you, that you might be a "useless idiot" who is conducting rear guard action for the murderers of John Kennedy, some of whom are probably still around today?

I am referring to CIA George Herbert Walker Bush.

The KGB did indeed know a thing or 2 about the spy game. They had the world's largest foreign intelligence service in 1963 and by 1965 their private communications to their agents in NYC were saying that they - meaning KGB headquarters - were *now* in possession of information *purporting* to show that Lyndon Johnson had orchestrated the JFK assassination.

Of course, LBJ was telling his mistress Madeleine Brown in real time 12/31/63 that his biggest supporters, Dallas, TX oil men and CIA renegades were behind the JFK assassination. Later the testimonies of Barr McClellan and Billie Sol Estes confirmed this. Significantly, Lyndon Johnson was the #1 suspect of JFK's long time secretary Evelyn Lincoln as she was compiling a list of perp suspects on the plane ride back from Dallas.

By 1966, after the publication of Mark Lane's "Rush to Judgement" the vast majority of the American people has always believed that a conspiracy killed JFK and that their government was covering something up. It did not start with Oliver Stone's excellent movie JFK.

As for disinformation campaigns, the CIA's Operation Mockingbird has been unparalled in that. In fact, it is possible - maybe - that Cord Meyer who ran this effort was himself involved in the JFK assassination. At least that is what longtime CIA operative E. Howard Hunt posited in his death bed semi-confessions where he said he was a "backbencher" in the JFK assasination.

Your problem is, and it is kind of sad, that you actually give more credence to CIA Operation Mockingbird propaganda than to the internal intelligence of the KGB, the Russian newspapers and Fidel Castro, all of whom are more credible sources on the JFK asssassination than say, the New York Times, CBS News or Time-LIFE.

[BravesFan]

Or , it could be the simple answer that LHO acted alone and conspiracy people just don't want to admit it. Or they gain personal satisfaction by living under the delusion that they , and only they, are "in on the truth".

There's a psychological explanation of the conspiracy theorist you know.

[Robert Morrow]

The hit-and-run spammer has left and gone away. :(

Too bad. This might have been an amusing thread. Did anybody look at his blog? Mr. Morrow, a resident of Austin, Texas, (according to some biographical info found here (http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17364)) seems to be suffering from a pronounced case of LBJ derangement syndrome judging by this post on his blog entitled (ready for it?) Was Lyndon Johnson homosexual? Bisexual? Did he have sex with his grandmother? (http://lyndonjohnsonmurderedjfk.blogspot.com/2012/03/was-lyndon-johnson-homosexual-bisexual.html)

No comment except that Austin is also the home base of Alex Jones. Connect the dots, people! ;)

Walter, I have excellent sources on Lyndon Johnson's over the top promiscuous sex life. Of course, LBJ was insanely rampant with the women - he once said that he had gotten more women by accident than JFK had gotten on purpuse. But what folks don't know - and it's not in the biographies yet or even much on the internet - was the President Loves a Lot - and I don't mean JFK - had a *homosexual side* as per my deep sources in Texas.

The most blockbuster of these is Ray Hill, a Houston gay activist, who worked at the Alfred Kinsey Institute in the mid 1960's and read LBJ's detailed sexual histories. Kinsey made a point to interview a lot of prominent people and grill them on their sex history.

LBJ's interview detailed rampant bisexuality.

And apparently, Lyndon Johnson had sexual intercourse with the grandmother on his mother's side: Ruth Ament Huffman. I estimate she was age 68 at the time.

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/archives.hom/faqs/genealogy/geniealbj.asp

On a side note, I have been a guest on the Alex Jones show, which is based here in Austin, TX: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNqPuqEU8TU

[Robert Morrow]

I have to wonder if it was Pravda the newspaper or Pravda Online, which is the Russian equivalent of WorldNutDaily. Neither is a source I'd give much credence to, but the latter is more openly crazy.

The Russians have been saying, quite correctly, since in real time in 1963 and 1964 that Lyndon Johnson's ultra-reactionary Texas oil men were behind that JFK assassination. That Pravda article was from 2007. Russia media was saying essentially the same thing in 1964.

[Rich_C]

On a side note, I have been a guest on the Alex Jones show

This explains so much.

[Walter Ego]

Walter, I have excellent sources on Lyndon Johnson's over the top promiscuous sex life. Of course, LBJ was insanely rampant with the women - he once said that he had gotten more women by accident than JFK had gotten on purpuse. But what folks don't know - and it's not in the biographies yet or even much on the internet - was the President Loves a Lot - and I don't mean JFK - had a *homosexual side* as per my deep sources in Texas.

The most blockbuster of these is Ray Hill, a Houston gay activist, who worked at the Alfred Kinsey Institute in the mid 1960's and read LBJ's detailed sexual histories. Kinsey made a point to interview a lot of prominent people and grill them on their sex history.

LBJ's interview detailed rampant bisexuality.

And apparently, Lyndon Johnson had sexual intercourse with the grandmother on his mother's side: Ruth Ament Huffman. I estimate she was age 68 at the time.

<url's snipped>


You posted this on the Education Forum.

I agree Lyndon Johnson was a world class criminal; if I had a magic wand I would take his name off everything. I would just be content for more folks to know Johnson's key role in the JFK assassination.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showuser=6333


How is LBJ's rampant bisexuality (if it existed) relevant to his status (in your opinion) as a "world class criminal"? How is it any more relevant than JFK's rampant heterosexuality? Is there something intrinsically evil about homosexuality or bisexuality or are you just attempting to guid the lilly?

That you would stoop to gay bashing in a effort to discredit Johnson tells more about your prejudices than you may realize. Thanks for letting us know that that JFK wasn't a homo, though. We really appreciate that.

(Btw, the only thing that really offended me in Oliver Stone's silly and mendacious cinematic "masterpiece" JFK was the resurrection of the clichéd "evil fag" villain which had more or less disappeared from American movies by the mid-1970s. Stone wasn't too proud to appeal to his audience's baser instincts. Apparently you are following in his footsteps in this regard.)

[Robert Morrow]

Well, Walter, Lyndon Johnson was the central perp in the JFK assassination. Everything we can learn about him is completely relevant to studying him and that includes his rampant and heavily documented sexual promiscuity. Both JFK's and LBJ's rampant risk-taking sexual adventures gives us key insights as to who there were. Ditto Bill Clinton.

What it shows is recklessness, sexual addiction and a sense of entitlement that rules that apply to others don't apply to them. What is also shows is lying for every man (or woman), especially of the married type, have to be experienced liars to their wives and the public in general if they are engaging on a sex-a-thon the scale of a JFK, LBJ or Clinton.

Make no mistake about it, Lyndon Johnson was a sexual gorilla and my deep Texas sources have told me about LBJ's "homosexual side" as well, something that is not widely known even among his top biographers Dallek and Caro. So you are getting the cutting edge, inside stuff from me, from my base here in Austin, TX where Lyndon Johnson operated out of for decades.

Beyond the sexual wantonness, Lyndon Johnson was a mental fruitcake; I think at times when president the man was literally insane, delusional, deeply depressed and in alcoholic (and "sober") hallucinations.

I think LBJ from 1965 on was mentally collapsing over both the weight of his Vietnam fiasco as well as his terror of being exposed for his central role in the JFK assassination.

A very important book to read is "Power Beyond Reason: the Mental Collapse of Lyndon Johnson" by D. Jablow Hershman: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=LBJ+mental+collapse&x=0&y=0

It is a psychological "smoking gun" to the JFK assassination.

[Robert Morrow]

One more thing, Jim Garrison himself was almost certainly a bisexual, and perhaps a homosexual pederast. You can read about those allegations in Patricia Lambert's "False Witness: The Real Story of Jim Garrison's Investigation and Oliver Stone's Film JFK"

http://www.amazon.com/False-Witness-Garrisons-Investigation-Oliver/dp/0871319209/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331347383&sr=8-1

She convinced me.

[BStrong]

Given this new blockbusting information, can there be any doubt?

Yep, somebody is nuts about nuts.

[Walter Ego]

Make no mistake about it, Lyndon Johnson was a sexual gorilla and my deep Texas sources have told me about LBJ's "homosexual side" as well, something that is not widely known even among his top biographers Dallek and Caro. So you are getting the cutting edge, inside stuff from me, from my base here in Austin, TX where Lyndon Johnson operated out of for decades.


So, by believing everything negative and sordid you've read or heard whispered around Austin about LBJ you've sussed out the truth that those professional historians couldn't find? Have you emailed them with your "discoveries" so they can update any future editions of their books?

Beyond the sexual wantonness, Lyndon Johnson was a mental fruitcake; I think at times when president the man was literally insane, delusional, deeply depressed and in alcoholic (and "sober") hallucinations.

It is a psychological "smoking gun" to the JFK assassination.

There's definitely a smoking gun lying on the carpet but it's not pointed in the direction you think it is.


One more thing, Jim Garrison himself was almost certainly a bisexual, and perhaps a homosexual pederast. You can read about those allegations in Patricia Lambert's "False Witness: The Real Story of Jim Garrison's Investigation and Oliver Stone's Film JFK"

<url snipped>

She convinced me.

I've read the Lambert book which exposed Garrison as a demagogic fraud who ruined the life of a completely innocent man and almost surely drove him to an early death by trying to convict him with perjured testimony. Is Garrison's alleged sexual deviance the only thing you brought away from that book?

[Robert Morrow]

Garrison's alleged sexual deviance seemed credible to me. I see no reason why Lambert would have made up those interviews or her subjects, who were boys at the time, lie to her. Clay Shaw is now known to have had dealings with the CIA; his alias was indeed Clay Bertrand; he and David Ferrie did indeed know Oswald and he basically perjured his way through this trial. That does not mean he assassinated John Kennedy, but Shaw was a liar and a perjurer. And a homosexual. That is why Stone featured that in the movie JFK; the whole point is Shaw was lying about not having his "Clay Bertrand" alias.

JFK researcher Ed Tatro went down to New Orleans for the Clay Shaw trial. He went to the French Quarter and found many people who knew exactly who "Clay Bertrand" was ... Clay Shaw. So, Shaw was lying through his teeth and the only reason he would do that was he feared opening a Pandora's Box if he were to be truthful

As for Lyndon Johnson, a lot of people have sexual secrets, but in the case of Lyndon Johnson this has been documented to the hilt. I personal know a real estate agent, age 78 today, who LBJ - liquor on his breath - hit on while on the tarmac of the Houston airport on election day 1964. She was a news director for a radio station and the sexual gorilla Lyndon Johnson was trying to get her to hop on his campaign plane and go the the LBJ Ranch. I am sure Johnson would have tried to have sex with her if she did that.

Just a tour of the LBJ Ranch and if you ask the docents they will tell you all about LBJ's ways. Most guys cheat when they are away from home; LBJ was screwing women 2 rooms down from Lady Bird while she was in the house!

Again, that is a sense of entitlement, recklessness and the belief that rules apply to others but not to Lyndon Johnson. It also shows how Johnson was able to turn his wife and aides into slaves for him; willingly degrading themselves.

[Robert Morrow]

Trenton Parker was one of those elite CIA counter-intelligence agents. I have always believed that what he told author and FAA whistleblower in 1993 probably had a lot of truth in regards to the JFK assassination.

From Defrauding America, Rodney Stich, 3rd edition 1998 p. 638-639]:

“The Role of deep-cover CIA officer, Trenton Parker, has been described in earlier pages, and his function in the CIA's counter-intelligence unit, Pegasus. Parker had stated to me earlier that a CIA faction was responsible for the murder of JFK … During an August 21, 1993, conversation, in response to my questions, Parker said that his Pegasus group had tape recordings of plans to assassinate Kennedy. I asked him, "What group were these tapes identifying?" Parker replied: "Rockefeller, Allen Dulles, Johnson of Texas, George Bush, and J. Edgar Hoover." I asked, "What was the nature of the conversation on these tapes?"

I don't have the tapes now, because all the tape recordings were turned over to [Congressman] Larry McDonald. But I listened to the tape recordings and there were conversations between Rockefeller, [J. Edgar] Hoover, where [Nelson] Rockefeller asks, "Are we going to have any problems?" And he said, "No, we aren't going to have any problems. I checked with Dulles. If they do their job we'll do our job." There are a whole bunch of tapes, because Hoover didn't realize that his phone has been tapped. Defrauding America, Rodney Stich, 3rd edition p. 638-639]

[BravesFan]

Convenient lack of evidence is convenient.

All of your statements are just statements made by people whose credibility is questionable. They possess no evidence to back up their stories making it useless and/or contrived nonsense.


I have tapes proving that Castro killed Cuba, You can have them for $500,000

[Robert Morrow]

"They possess no evidence to back up their stories making it useless and/or contrived nonsense." - Prove it.

That is your *opinion* which you claim to be *fact.* The testimony of Trenton Parker is indeed evidence. He may not have supporting evidence to back up his claims, but it is evidence nonetheless and you can evaluate it however you wish.

There was another CIA Pegasus agent Chip Tatum who I think is highly credible. In 1992 GHW Bush wanted Tatum to either kill or terrify Ross Perot. Perot knew all about the 1980's CIA/Bush/Clinton drug running.

Here is the story of Chip Tatum: http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/TATUM/tatum.html

[Robert Morrow]

Lyndon Johnson once gave an interview where he said that the USA had been running "Murder, Inc." down in the Carribean. What most folks don't know, because it has been heavily suppressed and ignored by the MSM, is that Lyndon Johnson was running "Murder, Inc" down in Texas to cover up is over the top criminality, bribes, kick backs etc.

Billie Sol Estes was LBJ's cut out for doing business (business for LBJ meant massive kick backs, bribes, etc). One of the things LBJ did was arrange for the murder of Henry Marshall, a US agricultural dept official who was investigating Billie Sol Estes in 1960-61. LBJ, Estes, Cliff Carter and LBJ's personal hitman Malcolm Wallace arranged for the murder of Marshall. Malcolm Wallace probably personally did it himself.

http://home.earthlink.net/~sixthfloor/estes.htm

LETTER #2 - FROM DOUGLAS CADDY (lawyer for Billie Sol Estes)
August 9, 1984
Mr. Stephen S. Trott
Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division
U.S. Department of Justice
Washington, D. C. 20530
RE: Mr. Billie Sol Estes
Dear Mr. Trott:
My client, Mr. Estes, has authorized me to make this reply to your letter of May 29, 1984. Mr. Estes was a member of a four-member group, headed by Lyndon Johnson, which committed criminal acts in Texas in the 1960's. The other two, besides Mr. Estes and LBJ, were Cliff Carter and Mac Wallace. Mr. Estes is willing to disclose his knowledge concerning the following criminal offenses:
I. Murders
1. The killing of Henry Marshall
2. The killing of George Krutilek
3. The killing of Ike Rogers and his secretary
4. The killing of Harold Orr
5. The killing of Coleman Wade
6. The killing of Josefa Johnson
7. The killing of John Kinser
8. The killing of President J. F. Kennedy.
Mr. Estes is willing to testify that LBJ ordered these killings, and that he transmitted his orders through Cliff Carter to Mac Wallace, who executed the murders. In the cases of murders nos. 1-7, Mr. Estes' knowledge of the precise details concerning the way the murders were executed stems from conversations he had shortly after each event with Cliff Carter and Mac Wallace.
In addition, a short time after Mr. Estes was released from prison in 1971, he met with Cliff Carter and they reminisced about what had occurred in the past, including the murders. During their conversation, Carter orally compiled a list of 17 murders which had been committed, some of which Mr. Estes was unfamiliar. A living witness was present at that meeting and should be willing to testify about it. He is Kyle Brown, recently of Houston and now living in Brady, Texas.
Mr. Estes, states that Mac Wallace, whom he describes as a "stone killer" with a communist background, recruited Jack Ruby, who in turn recruited Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Estes says that Cliff Carter told him that Mac Wallace fired a shot from the grassy knoll in Dallas, which hit JFK from the front during the assassination.
[The letter continues …]

Sincerely yours,
Douglas Caddy

[BravesFan]

Well, it's in a letter written by a defense lawyer! Who wouldn't trust that!

[Robert Morrow]

Well, it's in a letter written by a defense lawyer! Who wouldn't trust that!

It is an attorney writing a letter where his client, Billie Sol Estes, is admitting to murders that he arranged with other people, namely Lyndon Johnson.

Henry Marshall, murdered in June, 1961, near Bryan-College Station was one of there prime victims.

LBJ said "Get rid of him." And Malcolm Wallace, LBJ's personal hitman, did.

[JohnG]

Just a tour of the LBJ Ranch and if you ask the docents they will tell you all about LBJ's ways.


Those are some indecent docents!

Most guys cheat when they are away from home; LBJ was screwing women 2 rooms down from Lady Bird while she was in the house!


What a charming anecdote! So, "most guys cheat when they are away from home", huh? How do you know this? Do you cheat when you are away from home?

Is there any U.S. President in the last 50 years who wasn't in your opinion a sexually deranged super villain?

[bynmdsue]

So it wasn't the homosexual thrill-killing Garrison posited but instead a homosexual power grab. Glaad that's cleared up.

[BravesFan]

It was evil gay jewish texas oilmen in league with communists....

I bet if you took a survey you might find one or two people who fit this mold. But odds are not enough to start any cabals.

[Robert Morrow]

John G., half of US presidents are sociopaths: thinking of LBJ, Bill Clinton, GHW Bush, Richard Nixon.

Jimmy Carter comes out looking like a pretty nice guy when compared to most of them. I would vote for Jimmy Carter over these seriously deranged criminals.

John Kennedy - despite being a man-whore - ranks pretty high up there with me because he helped us to avoid nuclear war when they were folks in the US government, thinking Gen. Curtis LeMay, who were just *dying* to get it over with.

[TheRedWorm]

I'll post this again, as it seems appropriate:

Shot 1: LHO lines up the scope for a head shot on JFK, misses, and can't see the splash.
Shot 2: LHO aims center of mass to try to determine round placement.
Shot 3: LHO sees that rounds are impacting most likely centerline but high (shot mid body, and roughly hit throat based on JFK's reaction). Seeing this, he aims below the head to try and hit the same, fires, and cycles the bolt because he couldn't see the obviously mortal wound. LHO then sees said wound and leaves.

I think that this is eminently plausible. Robert, can you do the same thing for the supposed conspiracy shots?

focus Robert

[Robert Morrow]

All law enforcement knew there was a shooter on the Grassy Knoll. But the murderers gameplan was to frame patsy and US intelligence agent Oswald because of his fake public persona of being a “pro-Castro Marxist:

"Washington's word to me was that it would hurt foreign relations if I alleged conspiracy - whether I could prove it or not. I was just to charge Oswald with plain murder and go for the death penalty. Johnson had Cliff Carter call me three or four times that weekend"
Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade

The reason Henry Wade could not charge “conspiracy” when everyone knew that was one, was because the “murderers” and “conspirators” were the ones in government.

[BStrong]

All law enforcement knew there was a shooter on the Grassy Knoll. But the murderers gameplan was to frame patsy and US intelligence agent Oswald because of his fake public persona of being a “pro-Castro Marxist:

"Washington's word to me was that it would hurt foreign relations if I alleged conspiracy - whether I could prove it or not. I was just to charge Oswald with plain murder and go for the death penalty. Johnson had Cliff Carter call me three or four times that weekend"
Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade

The reason Henry Wade could not charge “conspiracy” when everyone knew that was one, was because the “murderers” and “conspirators” were the ones in government.

So every law enforcement officer, local, state and fed are in on the cover-up?

Or just the gay ones?

[BravesFan]

John G., half of US presidents are sociopaths: thinking of LBJ, Bill Clinton, GHW Bush, Richard Nixon.

Jimmy Carter comes out looking like a pretty nice guy when compared to most of them. I would vote for Jimmy Carter over these seriously deranged criminals.

John Kennedy - despite being a man-whore - ranks pretty high up there with me because he helped us to avoid nuclear war when they were folks in the US government, thinking Gen. Curtis LeMay, who were just *dying* to get it over with.

What's your degree in again that you are making psychological diagnoses of dead presidents?

What evidence do you have to support said hypothesis of "sociopathology" can you give me a definition of what a sociopath is and then give verifiable examples of each president replicating said behavior? Without using google and wiki?

[Robert Morrow]

A small handful of people 10-20 can manipulate 8 different organizations and thousands of basically honest people. LBJ, Hoover of the FBI, LBJ's good friend Rowley at the Secret Service and the people running the CIA (not James McCone) and the JCS were Kennedy haters and a certain amount of them were key plotters in the JFK assassination. Even more of them were willing to cover it up.

And there was the outside shadow government of Texas oil men and perhaps the Rockefellers, because they were so hard wired into intelligence, that were supporting the whole operation.

[Robert Morrow]

Robert Kennedy, in the fall of 1963, was telling the Washington press corps that it was open season on Lyndon Johnson. LBJ was very aware of this & angry, frightened and concerned.

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Esixthfloor/brennen.htm

"A few days later, the attorney general, Bobby Kennedy, called five of Washington's top reporters into his office and told them it was now open season on Lyndon Johnson. It's OK, he told them, to go after the story they were ignoring out of deference to the administration.

And from that point on until the events in Dallas, Lyndon Baines Johnson's future looked as if it included a sudden end to his political career and a few years in the slammer. The Kennedys had their knives out and sharpened for him and were determined to draw his political blood - all of it.

In the Senate, the investigation into the Baker case was moving quickly ahead. Even the Democrats were cooperating, thanks to the Kennedys, and an awful lot of really bad stuff was being revealed - until Nov. 22, 1963."

[Robert Morrow]

What's your degree in again that you are making psychological diagnoses of dead presidents?

What evidence do you have to support said hypothesis of "sociopathology" can you give me a definition of what a sociopath is and then give verifiable examples of each president replicating said behavior? Without using google and wiki?

A sociopath is a person who exhibits anti-social behavior such as deeply violating another person. Some good examples of sociopaths, who are often good liars, would be Bill Clinton who raped Juanita Broaddrick and had a whole string of other unacceptable sexual behaviors such as his attack on Elizabeth Ward Gracen, his hard pass at Juanita Broaddick, a rape on Eileen Wellstone when he was at Oxford, exposing himself to Paula Jones, a hard pass at Kathleen Willey in fall 1993 and his attack on a woman interviewed by author Roger Morris.

Not to mention that Clinton goons beat up and nearly murdered Gennifer Flower's next door neighbor Gary Johnson on 6/26/92. Or that Bill and Hillary have long used private detectives to harass, intimidate and terrify Bill's sex victims and former girlfriends.

And that is just the sociopath Clintons.

One example of Richard Nixon would be planning with Gordon Liddy and E. Howard Hunt to murder columnist Jack Anderson. That is a sociopath, although the murder never actually happened. Nixon told a lot of lies, too. And google "Richard Nixon Operation Red Rock."

GHW Bush - I think was a key player in the JFK assassination. GHW Bush certainly was a homosexual pederast for a long time. Google "Chip Tatum Pegasus" and you will learn about his terror campaign against Ross Perot in 1992. GHW Bush was heavy into the drug trade in the 1980's with CIA/Clintons/Oliver North.

I am for legalizing drugs ... just not killing people to cover up one's crimes-

Not to mention Bush's role in the treasonous "October Surprise" negociations with the Iranians.

Lyndon Johnson was not just a sociopath; he was a textbook psychopath. Just read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Power-Beyond-Reason-Collapse-Johnson/dp/1569802432/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1331423516&sr=1-1

LBJ was also killing people down in Texas with his personal hitman named Malcolm Wallace. He made his mistresses nanny, Dale Turner disappear forever because she saw LBJ in a hotel hallway with Madeleine Duncan Brown.

That is a starter list for you.

[BravesFan]

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM IV-TR), defines antisocial personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]
A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:
failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;
irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;
B) The individual is at least age 18 years.
C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.
New evidence points to the possibility that children often develop antisocial personality disorder as a result of environmental as well as genetic influence. The individual must be at least 18 years of age to be diagnosed with this disorder (Criterion B), but those commonly diagnosed with ASPD as adults were diagnosed with conduct disorder as children. The prevalence of this disorder is 3% in males and 1% from females, as stated in the DSM IV-TR.



So, you are claiming that of the 3% of males who suffer from APD, that many of them have remarkably made it into the White House? ...uh huh......

Not to mention that APD is often expressed as a child by the trinity of behaviors. Fire setting, prolonged bed wetting and cruelty to animals. I would think this sort of behavior would've been noticed in childhood and treated and some enterprising young journalist would've discovered the evidence. (but I bet you will say it was covered up as your type always does)

You don't seem to understand what an actual sociopath is like. generally they aren't what you would call people persons. They tend to be shy, repressed, possess no empathy and also tend to work with their hands as their pathology prevents them from being capable of moving up a corporate ladder.

Now there are exceptions (Ted Bundy comes to mind) But for your scenario to work, not only would the rare exception of the highly socially functioning sociopath have to make it through Ivy League colleges without going nuts and killing someone, they would also have to shmooze their way to the apex to become the Prez.

Wow, that's just a kind of crazy that folks can't make up....

I just wish I could find a way to capitalize on this financially

[JohnG]

Not to mention that Clinton goons beat up and nearly murdered Gennifer Flower's next door neighbor Gary Johnson on 6/26/62.


:confused:


I'm also still curious about your "most guys cheat when they are away from home" statement. How do you know this? Do you cheat when you are away from home? Now you are painting "most guys" with your broad brush?

What is your deal?

[Robert Morrow]

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM IV-TR), defines antisocial personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]
A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:
failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;
irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;
B) The individual is at least age 18 years.
C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.
New evidence points to the possibility that children often develop antisocial personality disorder as a result of environmental as well as genetic influence. The individual must be at least 18 years of age to be diagnosed with this disorder (Criterion B), but those commonly diagnosed with ASPD as adults were diagnosed with conduct disorder as children. The prevalence of this disorder is 3% in males and 1% from females, as stated in the DSM IV-TR.



So, you are claiming that of the 3% of males who suffer from APD, that many of them have remarkably made it into the White House? ...uh huh......

Not to mention that APD is often expressed as a child by the trinity of behaviors. Fire setting, prolonged bed wetting and cruelty to animals. I would think this sort of behavior would've been noticed in childhood and treated and some enterprising young journalist would've discovered the evidence. (but I bet you will say it was covered up as your type always does)

You don't seem to understand what an actual sociopath is like. generally they aren't what you would call people persons. They tend to be shy, repressed, possess no empathy and also tend to work with their hands as their pathology prevents them from being capable of moving up a corporate ladder.

Now there are exceptions (Ted Bundy comes to mind) But for your scenario to work, not only would the rare exception of the highly socially functioning sociopath have to make it through Ivy League colleges without going nuts and killing someone, they would also have to shmooze their way to the apex to become the Prez.

Wow, that's just a kind of crazy that folks can't make up....

I just wish I could find a way to capitalize on this financially

Lyndon Johnson was not just a textbook sociopath; he was a textbook psychopath. And a textbook manic-depressive: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=LBJ+mental+collapse&x=0&y=0

The most dangerous sociopaths and psycopaths are ... the ones who never get arrested. They good at lying, can be very charming (a la Ted Bundy) and they have the social skills to climb the ladder. In fact, a case can be made that *because* they have no conscience and will do anything to get ahead (killing people, having goons beat up people, embezzling, stealing) that feature of them actually makes them more *successful* if by success one means getting to the top by any means necessary. Two examples of psycopaths would be Lyndon Johnson and George Herbert Walker Bush, both of whom were/are murderers and never spent a day in jail. Or even got arrested, although LBJ's grandmother, probably the one he had sex with, predicted that he would end up in jail.

I'm sorry, friend, but sociopaths are not exclusive to the blue collar class. There are many white collar sociopaths and psycopaths.

A good example would be Bernie Madoff- that is a charming criminal who had folks fooled for decades, but I would no way put Madoff in the class with LBJ or GHW Bush.

Sociopaths and psychopaths violate others with impunity and just don't care. And they can to it in a whole variety of ways, not just personal physical assaults.

[Robert Morrow]

Robert Caro spent several years interviewing people who knew him during those years and concluded: “By the time the researcher completes his work on Lyndon Johnson’s college years, he knows that one alumnus had not been exaggerating when he said, “A lot of people at San Marcos didn’t just dislike Lyndon Johnson; they despised Lyndon Johnson.”

Here is Robert Caro again on LBJ:

"And by 1941, also the major patterns of his entire life are established and clear. In attaining this influence, he has displayed a genius for discerning a path to power, an utter ruthlessness in destroying obstacles in that path, and a seemingly bottomless capacity for deceit, deception and betrayal in moving along it"

Remember Caro is talking about 1941, 22 years before the JFK assassination and he is giving us the textbook description of a sociopath: ruthless and deception.

In reading the LBJ biographies, there is another characteristic that comes out. Lyndon Johnson never apologized to anyone for whatever he did no matter how awful it was. In his mind everything was acceptable if it advanced his goals, human wreckage left behind be damned.

[Robert Morrow]

:confused:


I'm also still curious about your "most guys cheat when they are away from home" statement. How do you know this? Do you cheat when you are away from home? Now you are painting "most guys" with your broad brush?

What is your deal?

That would be "most guys who cheat" do it away from home. LBJ would literally boink the girls under his own roof with Lady Bird 2 rooms down. Seriously. LBJ had a way of turning people into slaves and getting them to degrade themselves, do things they would not normally do. LBJ was the "bad crowd" who your mom warned you not to hang out with.

As for the Clintons, they sent goons to beat up and nearly murder Gary Johnson on 6/26/92. Gary Johnson was the lawyer for former Clinton insider Larry Nichols and Gary Johnson had videotapes from a security camera of Bill Clinton often entering the condo of his neighbor Gennifer Flowers.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2804988/posts

All this stuff is true ... and it has been suppressed in the controlled MSM. They will tell you about Monica's dress when they have to, but the controlled MSM will never tell you the real dirty stuff on a Clinton or Bush.

[BStrong]

That would be "most guys who cheat" do it away from home. LBJ would literally boink the girls under his own roof with Lady Bird 2 rooms down. Seriously. LBJ had a way of turning people into slaves and getting them to degrade themselves, do things they would not normally do. LBJ was the "bad crowd" who your mom warned you not to hang out with.

As for the Clintons, they sent goons to beat up and nearly murder Gary Johnson on 6/26/92. Gary Johnson was the lawyer for former Clinton insider Larry Nichols and Gary Johnson had videotapes from a security camera of Bill Clinton often entering the condo of his neighbor Gennifer Flowers.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2804988/posts

All this stuff is true ... and it has been suppressed in the controlled MSM. They will tell you about Monica's dress when they have to, but the controlled MSM will never tell you the real dirty stuff on a Clinton or Bush.

But it's been discussed ad infinitum in the NSM - Nut Stream Media - and no indicments, not even a decent civil suit.

Funny thing, when you have assets, and a half baked story comes along, competent counsel will advise to steer clear until proven true.

With all your "proof," why no Pulitizer?

[BravesFan]

Lyndon Johnson was not just a textbook sociopath; he was a textbook psychopath. And a textbook manic-depressive: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=LBJ+mental+collapse&x=0&y=0

The most dangerous sociopaths and psycopaths are ... the ones who never get arrested. They good at lying, can be very charming (a la Ted Bundy) and they have the social skills to climb the ladder. In fact, a case can be made that *because* they have no conscience and will do anything to get ahead (killing people, having goons beat up people, embezzling, stealing) that feature of them actually makes them more *successful* if by success one means getting to the top by any means necessary. Two examples of psycopaths would be Lyndon Johnson and George Herbert Walker Bush, both of whom were/are murderers and never spent a day in jail. Or even got arrested, although LBJ's grandmother, probably the one he had sex with, predicted that he would end up in jail.

I'm sorry, friend, but sociopaths are not exclusive to the blue collar class. There are many white collar sociopaths and psycopaths.

A good example would be Bernie Madoff- that is a charming criminal who had folks fooled for decades, but I would no way put Madoff in the class with LBJ or GHW Bush.

Sociopaths and psychopaths violate others with impunity and just don't care. And they can to it in a whole variety of ways, not just personal physical assaults.


So you think that all of these presidents were sociopaths, did all of these things, killed all of these people and nobody ever talked ? You can't claim the media covered it up either as there's nothing our media likes more than to knock down the powerful a few notches. We impeached a president in one house of congress for lying about getting a blowjob for christ sake!!! Yet you think that the media has covered for Republican pedophiles?


Yep, this is officially the craziest thing I have ever heard of. There are Truthers blushing somewhere....:jaw-dropp


I would love to see you have to prove any of this in court. I mean PROVE. You could really get hit with a libel suit for some of this stuff you know. True that public figures generally don't care what fringe loons say on the internets, but.....man this is just crazy stuff.

[Robert Morrow]

LogicFail, that is the whole point. A president will get impeached over lying in a deposition about having an affair, but the controlled MSM media won't touch the larger issues - such as assassinations, CIA drug smuggling and elite pedophilia - because it is too discrediting the the system and the elites of both Republican and Democratic parties.

Read about Chip Tatum, the CIA Pegasus assassin who turned down the intimidation of Ross Perot. Tatum has murdered plenty of people in the name of "national security" but he turned this job down ... and he knew all about CIA drug running.

So, why was this blockbuster stuff not on the front page of the "liberal" NYT or the "liberal" CBS News? You tell me. And the answer "because it is a lie" is not the right one.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/TATUM/tatum.html

Plenty of people have talked. Thank got for the internet, it gives them a bulletin board to post their stories and we can decide what we think about it.

[BravesFan]

But you have no evidence. You have people talking. The crazy guy who collects cans in my town talks a lot too, that doesn't mean he did any of the stuff he says....

The NYT would punch Chuck Norris in the balls for the chance to have run ANY dirt on W. In this age of bloggers and journalists posting millions of words a day online there is no keeping these kinds of things secret..

The answer to your question is obviously "they are all unsubstantiated malarky"

as are your arguments from ignorance, repetition and false attribution.

[BStrong]

LogicFail, that is the whole point. A president will get impeached over lying in a deposition about having an affair, but the controlled MSM media won't touch the larger issues - such as assassinations, CIA drug smuggling and elite pedophilia - because it is too discrediting the the system and the elites of both Republican and Democratic parties.

Read about Chip Tatum, the CIA Pegasus assassin who turned down the intimidation of Ross Perot. Tatum has murdered plenty of people in the name of "national security" but he turned this job down ... and he knew all about CIA drug running.

So, why was this blockbuster stuff not on the front page of the "liberal" NYT or the "liberal" CBS News? You tell me. And the answer "because it is a lie" is not the right one.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/TATUM/tatum.html

Plenty of people have talked. Thank got for the internet, it gives them a bulletin board to post their stories and we can decide what we think about it.

By all means - get yourself over to pownet and read about his "capture" in Cambodia.

If a bio starts out with a lie, it most likely doesn't get any better.

[Robert Morrow]

By all means - get yourself over to pownet and read about his "capture" in Cambodia.

If a bio starts out with a lie, it most likely doesn't get any better.

Who says pownet is "right?" People at the highest levels of intelligence and government have the ability to make people *appear* and *disappear* in official government documents. It is like when the send a spy overseas and not under diplomatic immunity. This poor soul - if he is caught - will be rejected by his own governent. Ditto Chip Tatum the operations he was in were too sensitive -- read "illegal" - to be recorded. He and his team were trying to provoke the Cambodians into war with N. Vietnam.

And as for LogicFail, you are making a critical mistake. You are vesting in the NYTimes and the MSM the power to decide if a story is real or not. You ought to look at the evidence and decide for yourself. I know somone who has interviewed Chip Tatum 4 times in the 1990's before he went underground. I have also studied his story and read many other confirming books on Bush/Clinton/CIA drug smuggling of the 1990's.

Never let the MSM (or Alex Jones or anyone else) tell you what is "true" or not.

[Robert Morrow]

LIFE Magazine, being fed damaging info by RFK, was on the verge of running a story on 11/29/63 that would have annihilated Lyndon Johnson’s political career once and for all:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=14966&st=0

James Wagenvoord to John Simkin (in November, 2009):

“I've been reading through you web site and believe that I can add one of the final jigsaw puzzle pieces that affect the timing of JFK's Dallas trip and the nervousness of LBJ during the weeks preceding the killing. At the time I was the 27 year old Editorial business manager and assistant to Life Magazines Executive Editor. Beginning in later summer 1963 the magazine, based upon information fed from Bobby Kennedy and the Justice Department, had been developing a major newsbreak piece concerning Johnson and Bobby Baker. On publication Johnson would have been finished and off the '64 ticket (reason the material was fed to us) and would probably have been facing prison time. At the time LIFE magazine was arguably the most important general news source in the US. The top management of Time Inc. was closely allied with the USA's various intelligence agencies and we were used after by the Kennedy Justice Department as a conduit to the public. Life's coverage of the Hoffa prosecution, and involvement in paying off Justice Department Memphis witnesses was a case in point.

The LBJ/Baker piece was in the final editing stages and was scheduled to break in the issue of the magazine due out the week of November 24 (the magazine would have made it to the newsstands on Nov.26th or 27th). It had been prepared in relative secrecy by a small special editorial team. On Kennedy's death research files and all numbered copies of the nearly print-ready draft were gathered up by my boss (he had been the top editor on the team) and shredded. The issue that was to expose LBJ instead featured the Zapruder film. Based upon our success in syndicating the Zapruder film I became Chief of Time/LIFE editorial services and remained in that job until 1968.”

[TheRedWorm]

I'll post this again, as it seems appropriate:

Shot 1: LHO lines up the scope for a head shot on JFK, misses, and can't see the splash.
Shot 2: LHO aims center of mass to try to determine round placement.
Shot 3: LHO sees that rounds are impacting most likely centerline but high (shot mid body, and roughly hit throat based on JFK's reaction). Seeing this, he aims below the head to try and hit the same, fires, and cycles the bolt because he couldn't see the obviously mortal wound. LHO then sees said wound and leaves.

I think that this is eminently plausible. Robert, can you do the same thing for the supposed conspiracy shots?


Can't you even attempt a response, Robert?

[Robert Morrow]

Can't you even attempt a response, Robert?

My response is google the Zapruder Film and you will find out that the kill shot to JFK came from the front. "Back and to the left," "back and to the left," "back and to the left" goes JFK's head and body, which implies a kill shot from the front right, i.e. the Grassy Knoll.

On top of that Oswald was US intelligence. Read those books I posted about that.

On top of that Oswald most probably was not even on the 6th floor and although I think he was somehow involved in the JFK assassination plot, because he was US intelligence, he shot no one on 11/22/63 - not JFK and not Tippit. Looks like a pure frame up to me on all counts.

Here is a whole book about all the people who saw or heard something fishy (sounds, smoke, men) up on the grassy knoll, mostly behind the stockade fence: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grassy-Knoll-Witnesses-Shot/dp/1438945612/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1331487157&sr=1-1

[BStrong]

Who says pownet is "right?" People at the highest levels of intelligence and government have the ability to make people *appear* and *disappear* in official government documents. It is like when the send a spy overseas and not under diplomatic immunity. This poor soul - if he is caught - will be rejected by his own governent. Ditto Chip Tatum the operations he was in were too sensitive -- read "illegal" - to be recorded. He and his team were trying to provoke the Cambodians into war with N. Vietnam.And as for LogicFail, you are making a critical mistake. You are vesting in the NYTimes and the MSM the power to decide if a story is real or not. You ought to look at the evidence and decide for yourself. I know somone who has interviewed Chip Tatum 4 times in the 1990's before he went underground. I have also studied his story and read many other confirming books on Bush/Clinton/CIA drug smuggling of the 1990's.

Never let the MSM (or Alex Jones or anyone else) tell you what is "true" or not.

You're living in a fantasy construct.

I'll make things a bit easier for you.

POWnet, like some other sites run by military folks, have a mission to exposed phony POW's and phony vets.

Tatum is an epic storyteller - the fact that some individuals (you clearly being one of them) want to believe the ******** he spins gives him the only validity he has - he is no different than Scott Barnes, Frank Dux or Warner Smith.

I'll leave you with a little homework.

Look up Msgt Fred Zabitosky - he was the real deal in every way, and was awarded the MOH for a SOG op in...wait for it...Laos.

The U.S. Military does not now, and did not then, "hide" special operations to the point where "no records exist" as is the common claim by phony vets and their supporters - the three individuals I referenced above have all used that dodge when caught.

Tatum did indeed serve, but there is no record of the guy being assigned to the 160th at Cambell or any other supporting records.

Here's the truth - if any individual claims all sorts of military daring-do and doesn't have a 201 or 214 to back it up, they're lying.

[BravesFan]

Who says pownet is "right?" People at the highest levels of intelligence and government have the ability to make people *appear* and *disappear* in official government documents. It is like when the send a spy overseas and not under diplomatic immunity. This poor soul - if he is caught - will be rejected by his own governent. Ditto Chip Tatum the operations he was in were too sensitive -- read "illegal" - to be recorded. He and his team were trying to provoke the Cambodians into war with N. Vietnam.

And as for LogicFail, you are making a critical mistake. You are vesting in the NYTimes and the MSM the power to decide if a story is real or not. You ought to look at the evidence and decide for yourself. I know somone who has interviewed Chip Tatum 4 times in the 1990's before he went underground. I have also studied his story and read many other confirming books on Bush/Clinton/CIA drug smuggling of the 1990's.

Never let the MSM (or Alex Jones or anyone else) tell you what is "true" or not.



think about that, you say I put too much faith in the mainstream media (who has to have evidence to back up their claims or the risk losing not just a lawsuit but their journalistic credibility so they attemp to maintain a very high standard of ethics.) Yet you put faith in cranks who write the craziest claims and have no ethical or moral standard of proof because they are in it to make a buck off of gullible readers. They don't care if they can back up their claims!! yet you buy it and act like you in some special little club of people who "know the truth". You aren't , you are basically checking yourself into an asylum

[Robert Morrow]

LogicFail, there is truth and lies everywhere from Alex Jones to the NY Times to the National Enquirer to Penthouse Magazine to the internet. Oftentimes the truth can be told in a porn magazine when it can't be told in the Wash Post because it is controlled by the CIA.

A good example is this fine article on CIA drug smuggling "The Crimes of Mena" by Sally Denton and Roger Morris in the July, 1995 Penthouse. This excellent and well sourced article was spiked at the last minute by a Wash Post editor: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/crimesOfMena.html

Because this story has been documented elsewhere, and because I have a friend who interviewed Chip Tatum, I believe his story. I think he is very credible.

1) Powerburns: Cocaine, Contras & the Drug War by former DEA agent Celerino Castillo, III
2) Dark Alliance by Gary Webb
3) Barry and the Boys: the CIA, the Mob and America's Secret History by Daniel Hopsicker
4) Whiteout by Alexander Cockburn
5) Cocaine Politics: Drugs, Armies and the CIA in Central America by Peter Dale Scott and
Jonathon Marshall
6) Lost History by Robert Parry
7) The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran-Contra Insider by Al Martin
8) The Big White Lie: The Deep Cover Operation That Exposed the CIA Sabotage of the Drug War: An Undercover Odyssey by Michael Levine and Laura Kavanau-Levine
9) The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia by Alfred W. McCoy (from the 1970’s era)
10) Out of Control: The Story of the Reagan Administration’s Secret War in Nicaragua, the Illegal Arms Pipeline, and the Contra Drug Connection by Leslie Cockburn
11) Blue Thunder: How the Mafia Owned and Finally Murdered Cigarette Boat King Donald Aronov by Thomas Burdick and Charlene Mitchell
12) The Mafia, CIA, & George Bush by Pete Brewton
13) Called to Serve by James “Bo” Gritz

[Robert Morrow]

Bobby Baker told Don Reynolds on 1/20/61 that the s.o.b. John Kennedy would never live out his term and that he would die a violent death; Bobby Baker, one of Lyndon Johnson’s closest associates, said this during the inauguration of John Kennedy

In fact, I think the "Bobby Baker scandal" of fall, 1963, and the fact that the Kennedys were going to use this to politically execute Lyndon Johnson was one of the big reasons for the JFK assassination.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbakerB.htm
(11) Edward Jay Epstein, Esquire Magazine (December, 1966)

”In January of 1964 the Warren Commission learned that Don B. Reynolds, insurance agent and close associate of Bobby Baker, had been heard to say the FBI knew that Johnson was behind the assassination. When interviewed by the FBI, he denied this. But he did recount an incident during the swearing in of Kennedy in which Bobby Baker said words to the effect that the s.o.b. would never live out his term and that he would die a violent death.”

[BravesFan]

If you put more faith in the "truth" being in a porn rag than in the mainstream media, (and I don't think much of the mainstream media, but I know they chomp at the bit for any chance to take down the politically powerful) than that is your problem.

Using the CIA's hiring of drug smugglers to gather intelligence (which was true) is not the same thing as claiming the CIA itself was condoning said drug smuggling either. They just decided that it was a necessary evil to get the information they needed. (but see that's not "evil" enough for CT'ers so they make crap up to make it fit their delusional worldview)

You claims are unsubstantiated and literally crazy. They are not backed up by evidence and I'm not going to trudge through all of those books to discover more of the same when I am not frankly that interested in understanding you delusional thinking any more than I do already.

Facts, not anecdotes. Evidence, not hypothesis. Empirical data, not stories.

[JohnG]

I have 300+ books on the JFK assassination. I have read 30 of the cream of the cream JFK books and read relevant passages or skimmed the rest. I have found the internet to be an absolutely invaluable source for learning on the JFK assassination. I have done much reading on the internet about the JFK assassination. With every medium, you have to read and watch critically. Oftentimes the National Enquirer or even a porn magazine is a more credible source of information on the JFK assassination than the NYT, Wash Post, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX. But if you read selectively and with a critical mind you can even learn from those sources as well.

Of course I do watch YouTube videos as well.
LogicFail, there is truth and lies everywhere from Alex Jones to the NY Times to the National Enquirer to Penthouse Magazine to the internet. Oftentimes the truth can be told in a porn magazine when it can't be told in the Wash Post because it is controlled by the CIA.
I spent 4 years putting the Clintons under a microscope; I literally bought every book EVER written about them off Amazon.


Just out of curiosity, is this research your vocation or your avocation?

[BStrong]

LogicFail, there is truth and lies everywhere from Alex Jones to the NY Times to the National Enquirer to Penthouse Magazine to the internet. Oftentimes the truth can be told in a porn magazine when it can't be told in the Wash Post because it is controlled by the CIA.

A good example is this fine article on CIA drug smuggling "The Crimes of Mena" by Sally Denton and Roger Morris in the July, 1995 Penthouse. This excellent and well sourced article was spiked at the last minute by a Wash Post editor: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/crimesOfMena.html

Because this story has been documented elsewhere, and because I have a friend who interviewed Chip Tatum, I believe his story. I think he is very credible.

1) Powerburns: Cocaine, Contras & the Drug War by former DEA agent Celerino Castillo, III
2) Dark Alliance by Gary Webb
3) Barry and the Boys: the CIA, the Mob and America's Secret History by Daniel Hopsicker
4) Whiteout by Alexander Cockburn
5) Cocaine Politics: Drugs, Armies and the CIA in Central America by Peter Dale Scott and
Jonathon Marshall
6) Lost History by Robert Parry
7) The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran-Contra Insider by Al Martin
8) The Big White Lie: The Deep Cover Operation That Exposed the CIA Sabotage of the Drug War: An Undercover Odyssey by Michael Levine and Laura Kavanau-Levine
9) The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia by Alfred W. McCoy (from the 1970’s era)
10) Out of Control: The Story of the Reagan Administration’s Secret War in Nicaragua, the Illegal Arms Pipeline, and the Contra Drug Connection by Leslie Cockburn
11) Blue Thunder: How the Mafia Owned and Finally Murdered Cigarette Boat King Donald Aronov by Thomas Burdick and Charlene Mitchell
12) The Mafia, CIA, & George Bush by Pete Brewton
13) Called to Serve by James “Bo” Gritz

As much as it pains me to say this, Gritz is another example of a ******** artist, one who wasted any credibility he may have had for a place in the spotlight post retirement. He was booted from the SOA (Special Operations Association) and the SFA (Special Forces Association) for scamming POW/MIA families for cash to run "rescue" operations out of Thailand. He also hooked up with Scott Barnes for his adventures - birds of a feather and all that, the only difference being Gritz was SF.

http://www.miafacts.org/gritz.htm

As I posted earlier, the only book worth reading on your list is The Politics...

[Robert Morrow]

Can't you even attempt a response, Robert?

As much as it pains me to say this, Gritz is another example of a ******** artist, one who wasted any credibility he may have had for a place in the spotlight post retirement. He was booted from the SOA (Special Operations Association) and the SFA (Special Forces Association) for scamming POW/MIA families for cash to run "rescue" operations out of Thailand. He also hooked up with Scott Barnes for his adventures - birds of a feather and all that, the only difference being Gritz was SF.

http://www.miafacts.org/gritz.htm

As I posted earlier, the only book worth reading on your list is The Politics...

Question, BStrong, have you read the *other* books on my list? If you have not, then how can you have an opinion on them?

[SpitfireIX]

My response is google the Zapruder Film and you will find out that the kill shot to JFK came from the front. "Back and to the left," "back and to the left," "back and to the left" goes JFK's head and body, which implies a kill shot from the front right, i.e. the Grassy Knoll.


You and other conspiracy theorists are simply wrong about this. See the following video at 8:00 for a demonstration. Will you now retract the claim?

45qUL681lmM

On top of that Oswald was US intelligence. Read those books I posted about that.


The books that provide no real evidence? Possibly you and your favorite authors have been taken in by the obviously fake McCone memo.

On top of that Oswald most probably was not even on the 6th floor and although I think he was somehow involved in the JFK assassination plot, because he was US intelligence, he shot no one on 11/22/63 - not JFK and not Tippit. Looks like a pure frame up to me on all counts.


Because you have some desperate need or desire to believe in a vast conspiracy to kill JFK. :rolleyes:


Here is a whole book about all the people who saw or heard something fishy (sounds, smoke, men) up on the grassy knoll, mostly behind the stockade fence: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grassy-Knoll-Witnesses-Shot/dp/1438945612/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1331487157&sr=1-1


First, modern ammunition is smokeless. There were, however, steam pipes in the area. Second, gunshots in an urban area can easily fool ear witnesses about the direction from which they are fired. Third, why is it suspicious that there would be "men" in the area? Many people were in the plaza to see the President, to protect the President, or simply going about their business.

[BStrong]

Question, BStrong, have you read the *other* books on my list? If you have not, then how can you have an opinion on them?

I have, and in other instances know the author(s).

There is no shortage of ******** written about Central America and what went on in the 1970's - 1980's.

People take rumors and outright lies and spin them as they see fit, and the facts be damned.

Google the Christic institute lawsuit - they had all the facts too, until it turned out that they didn't. Slinging bull on the 'net is one thing, slinging it in the courtroom is quite another.

That's the reason all of your theories don't make it into court - like the great reporter Herb Caen said: "Sources, check 'em and lose 'em."

[TheRedWorm]

My response is google the Zapruder Film and you will find out that the kill shot to JFK came from the front. "Back and to the left," "back and to the left," "back and to the left" goes JFK's head and body, which implies a kill shot from the front right, i.e. the Grassy Knoll.

On top of that Oswald was US intelligence. Read those books I posted about that.

On top of that Oswald most probably was not even on the 6th floor and although I think he was somehow involved in the JFK assassination plot, because he was US intelligence, he shot no one on 11/22/63 - not JFK and not Tippit. Looks like a pure frame up to me on all counts.

Here is a whole book about all the people who saw or heard something fishy (sounds, smoke, men) up on the grassy knoll, mostly behind the stockade fence: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grassy-Knoll-Witnesses-Shot/dp/1438945612/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1331487157&sr=1-1



So tell me exactly who took the shot, how, and why. Evidence would be nice, but since LHO and LHO alone shot and killed JFK, I know you won't be providing any. Also, when you actually get around to firing a rifle (of which I have several) at a relatively hard object enclosing a relatively soft/aqueous material, you actually come to expect the object moving back in the opposite direction of bullet travel. I got my results using a .22Mag firing at a plastic bottle filled with water.

[BStrong]

So tell me exactly who took the shot, how, and why. Evidence would be nice, but since LHO and LHO alone shot and killed JFK, I know you won't be providing any. Also, when you actually get around to firing a rifle (of which I have several) at a relatively hard object enclosing a relatively soft/aqueous material, you actually come to expect the object moving back in the opposite direction of bullet travel. I got my results using a .22Mag firing at a plastic bottle filled with water.

It's not nice, but the fact is that a living person absolutely does not respond to bullet impact in the way that Hollywood demonstrates.

Depending on body orientation at the moment of impact, an impact that turns out the lights can result in the body moving towards the direction of the shot, to the side, or simply a collapse. Nerve impulses play a part as well, but a terminal impact (brain or spine) doesn't leave much time for reponse from the target.

It's ugly, but watch the footage of the SVN police officer summarily executing the VC during Tet '68.

A little off topic, but one of the reasons you hear about LEO's putting multiple rounds into an attacker (beyond what an outside observer would think was required) is that even LEO's are conditioned to believe that a good impact on a live target should "knock them down." Nothing fired out of a handgun will "knock down" a living target as Hollywood would have you believe.

Guy draws down on an armed attacker, fires several rounds up close with no visible effect, he and everybody on scene open up and you end up with a bad actor with 30 holes in him.

[Robert Morrow]

I have, and in other instances know the author(s).

There is no shortage of ******** written about Central America and what went on in the 1970's - 1980's.

People take rumors and outright lies and spin them as they see fit, and the facts be damned.

Google the Christic institute lawsuit - they had all the facts too, until it turned out that they didn't. Slinging bull on the 'net is one thing, slinging it in the courtroom is quite another.

That's the reason all of your theories don't make it into court - like the great reporter Herb Caen said: "Sources, check 'em and lose 'em."

So you know the authors? Who? Well, spit them out? Do you know Terry Reed, Cele Castillo, Daniel Hopsicker, Chip Tatum, Robert Parry, Al Martin, Pete Brewton, Bo Gritz, etc? How do you know them and what are your associations with them.

I think it is beyond question that elements of the CIA and the "Secret Team," Bushes, Clintons etc were running huge amounts of drugs in the 1980's to fund illegal black operations and an unconstitutional "off the shelf" foreign policy.

Maybe that is why GHW Bush said this in 1992:

Reporter Sarah McClendon: "What will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George H.W. Bush: "Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us."

[BStrong]

So you know the authors? Who? Well, spit them out? Do you know Terry Reed, Cele Castillo, Daniel Hopsicker, Chip Tatum, Robert Parry, Al Martin, Pete Brewton, Bo Gritz, etc? How do you know them and what are your associations with them.

I think it is beyond question that elements of the CIA and the "Secret Team," Bushes, Clintons etc were running huge amounts of drugs in the 1980's to fund illegal black operations and an unconstitutional "off the shelf" foreign policy.

Maybe that is why GHW Bush said this in 1992:

Reporter Sarah McClendon: "What will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George H.W. Bush: "Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us."

I spent lots of time south of the border in the 1980's.

I witnessed my share of "writers" and "reporters" with agendas, and little interest in facts.

[TheRedWorm]

So tell me exactly who took the shot, how, and why. Evidence would be nice, but since LHO and LHO alone shot and killed JFK, I know you won't be providing any. Also, when you actually get around to firing a rifle (of which I have several) at a relatively hard object enclosing a relatively soft/aqueous material, you actually come to expect the object moving back in the opposite direction of bullet travel. I got my results using a .22Mag firing at a plastic bottle filled with water.

ahem

[BStrong]

ahem

Seconded.

[TheRedWorm]

So you know the authors? Who? Well, spit them out? Do you know Terry Reed, Cele Castillo, Daniel Hopsicker, Chip Tatum, Robert Parry, Al Martin, Pete Brewton, Bo Gritz, etc? How do you know them and what are your associations with them.

I think it is beyond question that elements of the CIA and the "Secret Team," Bushes, Clintons etc were running huge amounts of drugs in the 1980's to fund illegal black operations and an unconstitutional "off the shelf" foreign policy.

Maybe that is why GHW Bush said this in 1992:

Reporter Sarah McClendon: "What will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George H.W. Bush: "Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us."

no hypothesis

[Robert Morrow]

Lyndon Johnson wanted JACKIE to ride in his car in Texas!! Source: Sen. George Smathers, a good friend of JFK (11/18/63 talk on Air Force 1)

**Lyndon did not want Jackie’s brains to get blown out, too**

Sen. George Smathers, U.S. Congress 1946-1968:

“I came back to Washington with the President. He was lying down. They had a bed in the Air Force One for him to lie on. So he said, “Gee, I really hate to go to Texas. I got to go to Texas next week and it’s just a pain in the rear end and I just don’t want to go. I wish I could get out of it.” And I said, “Well, what’s the problem?” He said, “Well, you know how Lyndon is.” Lyndon was Vice President. “Lyndon wants to ride with me, but John Connally is the governor and he wants to ride and I think that protocol says that he’s supposed to ride and Johnson wants Jackie to ride with him.” And Connally was, at that time, a little bit jealous of Lyndon and Lyndon was a little jealous of him, so it’s all these fights were going on. He said, “I just don’t want to go down in that mess. I hate to go. I wish I could think of a way to get out of it.”

Transcript from PBS "American Experience - The Kennedys Part II - The Sons" available on line here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/transcript/kennedys-transcript/

about 1/2 way down the page on the transcript.

On the day of the JFK assassination, LBJ also got into a big argument with Kennedy as he tried to get his friend Texas Gov. John Connally into his car, move his enemy Sen. Ralph Yarborough into the kill zone.

[Supernaut]

Jackie Kennedy was a conspiracy nut!

NEW YORK – Tapes released by Caroline Kennedy reveal that Jackie Kennedy believed Lyndon B Johnson was the mastermind behind JFK’s assassination.

Tapes recorded by the First Lady months after the President’s death are to be released ahead of schedule by her daughter Caroline.

In the tapes, to be broadcast by ABC, Kennedy reveals her belief that Johnson and a cabal of Texas tycoons orchestrated the murder of her husband by gunman Lee Harvey Oswald.

http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/36655/jackie-kennedy-lyndon-johnson-killed-jfk/

This is happening, like, NOW.

Interesting observation in the comments;

"...she wore that pink suit covered in her husband's blood and brains to his [LBJ's] inauguration. Unless Johnson was a complete reptile, he would have been squirming inside."

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Hey, folks, here is my current take on the JFK assassination. Feel free to give me any feedback on what you think.

OK.

:dl:

This is essay is based on the cream of the cream of JFK research.

Wow. :eye-poppi

I have been studying the JFK assassination pretty intensely for 4 years.

Study harder. And longer.

[Regnad Kcin]

I have been studying the JFK assassination pretty intensely for 4 years.
But I thought you were "the nation's #1 anti-Clinton activist...I did opposition research on them for 4 years, pretty much every day." (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=8100967&postcount=1)

Have you any rational hobbies?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

This is essay is based on the cream of the cream of JFK research.

Baaaaaaad choice of words for someone so fixated on the sex lives of the elite.

[SpringHallConvert]

Evidence would be nice, but since LHO and LHO alone shot and killed JFK...

You don't know this with any certainty.

[JimBenArm]

You don't know this with any certainty.
I do. LHO absolutely did it, without any help.
Only stupid people think otherwise.

[BStrong]

I do. LHO absolutely did it, without any help.
Only stupid people think otherwise.

I think it's more delusion than stupidity, but it leads to the same end result.

[TheRedWorm]

So out of this post, Spring comments on only the bolded:


So tell me exactly who took the shot, how, and why. Evidence would be nice, but since LHO and LHO alone shot and killed JFK, I know you won't be providing any. Also, when you actually get around to firing a rifle (of which I have several) at a relatively hard object enclosing a relatively soft/aqueous material, you actually come to expect the object moving back in the opposite direction of bullet travel. I got my results using a .22Mag firing at a plastic bottle filled with water.


How about all the bits immediately preceding and succeeding it?

[Mudcat]

http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/129163250692547058.jpg

[SpringHallConvert]

I do. LHO absolutely did it, without any help.


Only stupid people think this.

[The Dark Lord]

Only stupid people think this.

The irony.

[Robert Morrow]

One big reason for the JFK assassination was that the Kennedys in the fall of 1963 were within days of politically and personally destroying Lyndon Johnson.

Robert Kennedy in fall of 1963, was telling the Wash DC press that it was open season on Lyndon Johnson: The Kennedys and LBJ were having a fight: the Kennedys brought knives to it and LBJ brought guns; they had no idea how dangerous LBJ was.

Here is a good link by Phil Brennan, detailing the pressure that Robert Kennedy was putting on Lyndon Johnson at this time: http://home.earthlink.net/%7Esixthfloor/brennen.htm
"Some Relevant Facts About the JFK Assassination" by Phil Brennan, who wrote this article in 2003.

[TheRedWorm]

So tell me exactly who took the shot, how, and why. Evidence would be nice, but since LHO and LHO alone shot and killed JFK, I know you won't be providing any. Also, when you actually get around to firing a rifle (of which I have several) at a relatively hard object enclosing a relatively soft/aqueous material, you actually come to expect the object moving back in the opposite direction of bullet travel. I got my results using a .22Mag firing at a plastic bottle filled with water.

Can't you even attempt a response, Robert?


So I'm going to go ahead and guess no.

[JimBenArm]

Only stupid people think this.
Who helped you come up with such an original comeback? I know you had to have assistance, because this is far too clever.

[SpringHallConvert]

Who helped you come up with such an original comeback? I know you had to have assistance, because this is far too clever.

I used your overwhelming originality as inspiration. Why, what's the matter? You don't find it very original?

Welcome to your world, pal.

[dafydd]

I used your overwhelming originality as inspiration. Why, what's the matter? You don't find it very original?

Welcome to your world, pal.

It is necessary to come down to your junior high school level.

[JimBenArm]

I used your overwhelming originality as inspiration. Why, what's the matter? You don't find it very original?

Welcome to your world, pal.
You're welcome to come live in it. Then you don't have to be paranoid over imaginary boogie men.

[SpringHallConvert]

You're welcome to come live in it. Then you don't have to be paranoid over imaginary boogie men.

You mean, like how you are with Lee Harvey Oswald?

No thanks. You're just as paranoid as anybody else. Even worse, you're a sucker for U.S. government B.S.

[JimBenArm]

You mean, like how you are with Lee Harvey Oswald?

No thanks. You're just as paranoid as anybody else. Even worse, you're a sucker for U.S. government B.S.
Paranoid over a dead man? Maybe you need to look up the definition. What would I need to be afraid of? Zombie LHO? Sorry, don't think he's much of a threat.

As far as being as paranoid as everyone else, I don't need to be. I'm ex-military, so I know how that works better than most. I pay my taxes, obey traffic laws, don't beat my wife or children. Nobody is out to harm me, and the only ones that want to shut me up are conspiracy loons who have no power or means to do so. Heck, most of your ilk would harm themselves trying to. Be like Elmer Fudd trying to get that wascaly wabbit.

Oh, and do try to do something about that blood pressure. Don't want you to have a stroke! You're my new best friend!

[DGM]

You mean, like how you are with Lee Harvey Oswald?

No thanks. You're just as paranoid as anybody else. Even worse, you're a sucker for U.S. government B.S.
But in your world you fear everyone. There are no "good guys", right? All governments are the same, everyone is out to get you.

[SpringHallConvert]

As far as being as paranoid as everyone else, I don't need to be. I'm ex-military, so I know how that works better than most.

Really? Do tell.

I pay my taxes, obey traffic laws, don't beat my wife or children. Nobody is out to harm me...

At least, as far as you know of.

...and the only ones that want to shut me up are conspiracy loons who have no power or means to do so.

Oh, yes, I'm sure those conspiracy theorists are out there with pitchforks trying to get you so they can make you shut up.

And you say you're not paranoid? Ha, ha, ha...

[JimBenArm]

Really? Do tell.



At least, as far as you know of.



Oh, yes, I'm sure those conspiracy theorists are out there with pitchforks trying to get you so they can make you shut up.

And you say you're not paranoid? Ha, ha, ha...
So, I need to be afraid of plots to harm me I don't know about? Really. Well, if my new best friend says so, I'm terrified. I'm hiding under the bed now. Will that protect me?
And why would I be afraid of the CT'ers? Now that we're bestest buddies, they'd never hurt me. After all, I'm one of you guys now.

Did you look up the definition of paranoid yet? I really think you should.

[dafydd]

Did you look up the definition of paranoid yet? I really think you should.

A truther doing research? Perish the thought! Ha ha ha.

[Robert Morrow]

Do you think gangster and Lansky Meyer associate, Lucky Luciano, was describing Lyndon Johnson in this vignette?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18962

“This one senator who come to see me in Naples, he drank more booze, took out more airline stewardesses and embassy secretaries, and spent more counterpart funds than any nine congressmen put together, and to top it, he had a yen to be in the White House. He also had a yen to meet me. So we met, and I found out he would steal a red-hot stove. He talked about tryin’ to fix up a way for me to come back to the States. He said he knew my record, but he also knew that Asslinger (Henry Anslinger ed.) was way off base where I was concerned; he said he’d asked the American Embassy guys, includin’ [Charles] Siragusa, to show him proof that I was connected with the drug traffic in Italy, and he said they had come up empty.

“Just before he left my apartment, he happened to look at this ring I wear on my pinky [a star sapphire and diamonds set in platinum] and he said to me, “That’s a beautiful ring. I’ve always wanted one like that.’ I could’ve thrown that hayseed right off the roof. Instead I said, ‘Senator, you can have it and a lot more the day I set foot in New York–permanent.’ We shook hands and he left and that’s the last I ever saw of that chiselin’ son of a bitch.”

(Off to one side of the room during this conversation sat an Italian friend of Luciano’s who spoke no English. But he remembered the meeting clearly, for when it was over Luciano told him the man was an important United States senator. He was not told the visitor’s name, but recently he described him as “a tall, thin man. He wore glasses and he had a very prominent nose. What I remember best about him is his enormous capacity for drinking.”

[jhunter1163]

His name was Meyer Lansky, not Lansky Meyer. And it was John McCone, not James. Getting this kind of thing wrong doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in the rest of your thesis.

[BStrong]

Do you think gangster and Lansky Meyer associate, Lucky Luciano, was describing Lyndon Johnson in this vignette?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18962

“This one senator who come to see me in Naples, he drank more booze, took out more airline stewardesses and embassy secretaries, and spent more counterpart funds than any nine congressmen put together, and to top it, he had a yen to be in the White House. He also had a yen to meet me. So we met, and I found out he would steal a red-hot stove. He talked about tryin’ to fix up a way for me to come back to the States. He said he knew my record, but he also knew that Asslinger (Henry Anslinger ed.) was way off base where I was concerned; he said he’d asked the American Embassy guys, includin’ [Charles] Siragusa, to show him proof that I was connected with the drug traffic in Italy, and he said they had come up empty.

“Just before he left my apartment, he happened to look at this ring I wear on my pinky [a star sapphire and diamonds set in platinum] and he said to me, “That’s a beautiful ring. I’ve always wanted one like that.’ I could’ve thrown that hayseed right off the roof. Instead I said, ‘Senator, you can have it and a lot more the day I set foot in New York–permanent.’ We shook hands and he left and that’s the last I ever saw of that chiselin’ son of a bitch.”

(Off to one side of the room during this conversation sat an Italian friend of Luciano’s who spoke no English. But he remembered the meeting clearly, for when it was over Luciano told him the man was an important United States senator. He was not told the visitor’s name, but recently he described him as “a tall, thin man. He wore glasses and he had a very prominent nose. What I remember best about him is his enormous capacity for drinking.”

No, and after having posting the story at the link you posted, you rejected the idea that it was LBJ.

Trying your luck here? hoping it will change?

[Regnad Kcin]

His name was Meyer Lansky, not Lansky Meyer. And it was John McCone, not James. Getting this kind of thing wrong doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in the rest of your thesis.Correct.

And yet how can this be, considering:

I have been studying the JFK assassination pretty intensely for 4 years.

[Robert Morrow]

No, and after having posting the story at the link you posted, you rejected the idea that it was LBJ.

Trying your luck here? hoping it will change?

I now think Luciano was referring to Estes Kefauver, not LBJ. And I also think Luciano was making the whole thing up.

However, it does describe Lyndon Johnson and his behavior to a t.

Hey, BStrong, would you care to tell us about all your experiences "south" of the border and how you knew so many of those folks who wrote books about CIA drug smuggling.

Any details we should know?

[Robert Morrow]

LBJ on 11/22/63

Gen. Godfrey McHugh had to slapped Lyndon Johnson to compose him on 11/22/63

But Johnson had no intention of leaving until he was sworn in as President- a needless formality that could easily have taken place at a later time, once everyone was out of harm's way. He had placed a call to Federal District Judge Sarah Hughes, and now everyone was forced to sit in the sweltering afternoon heat- the airconditioning could not be turned on until the engines were started- waiting for Judge Hughes to arrive.

Johnson, meantime, was cracking. General McHugh, who at first had no idea that LBJ was even on the plane, claimed that at one point he discovered Johnson cowering in the closet of the President's cabin. "They're going to kill us," he whimpered. "They're going to shoot down the plane, they're going to kill us all." It was then, McHugh said, that he actually got LBJ to "snap out of it" by slapping him. McHugh, in turn, was observed by others on the plane as dashing up and down the center aisle a half dozen times, wild-eyed and rambling.

Neither man was a picture of composure."

[Christopher Anderson, "Jackie After Jack," p. 11]

[BStrong]

I now think Luciano was referring to Estes Kefauver, not LBJ. And I also think Luciano was making the whole thing up.

However, it does describe Lyndon Johnson and his behavior to a t.

Hey, BStrong, would you care to tell us about all your experiences "south" of the border and how you knew so many of those folks who wrote books about CIA drug smuggling.

Any details we should know?

You wouldn't believe it anyway.

And as I posted earlier, the only book on your reading list that is worth reading is The Politics of heroin in S.E.A. by McCoy.

[CORed]

LBJ on 11/22/63

Gen. Godfrey McHugh had to slapped Lyndon Johnson to compose him on 11/22/63

But Johnson had no intention of leaving until he was sworn in as President- a needless formality that could easily have taken place at a later time, once everyone was out of harm's way. He had placed a call to Federal District Judge Sarah Hughes, and now everyone was forced to sit in the sweltering afternoon heat- the airconditioning could not be turned on until the engines were started- waiting for Judge Hughes to arrive.

Johnson, meantime, was cracking. General McHugh, who at first had no idea that LBJ was even on the plane, claimed that at one point he discovered Johnson cowering in the closet of the President's cabin. "They're going to kill us," he whimpered. "They're going to shoot down the plane, they're going to kill us all." It was then, McHugh said, that he actually got LBJ to "snap out of it" by slapping him. McHugh, in turn, was observed by others on the plane as dashing up and down the center aisle a half dozen times, wild-eyed and rambling.

Neither man was a picture of composure."

[Christopher Anderson, "Jackie After Jack," p. 11]

You know, I have no idea whether you story of LBJ getting into a panic after JFK's assassination is true or not (but considering the source I would put quite a bit of money on not), but, if your theory that LBJ was behind the JFK assassination is true, it doesn't make any sense at all that LBJ would be in a panic that "they" were going to kill him next. It looks like you've shot yourself in the foot in your effort to demonstrate how much inside dirt you know about.

[SpitfireIX]

But Johnson had no intention of leaving until he was sworn in as President- a needless formality that could easily have taken place at a later time, once everyone was out of harm's way. He had placed a call to Federal District Judge Sarah Hughes, and now everyone was forced to sit in the sweltering afternoon heat- the airconditioning could not be turned on until the engines were started- waiting for Judge Hughes to arrive.


Bull. My parents are retired secondary-school teachers, and they've told me about how upset their students were at the announcement of Kennedy's death. My mother in particular said that her students asked her if it meant the government was destroyed, and she had to reassure them that "the government would continue." Your source is a fool.

[Regnad Kcin]

In fairness, there is a story in a recent issue of The New Yorker, focusing on Mr. Johnson on the day of the assassination, both leading up to, and following the event. In the piece the author examines the oath-of-office issue from the perspective of the players at the time, including the office of the AG. Their conclusion: the oath is merely a ceremonial matter insofar as the Vice President becomes President immediately upon the latter's death.

Apparently Mr. Johnson's insistence on taking the oath as soon as possible had to do with, among several factors, a desire to clearly establish the fact in the eyes of the public, as well as his own sense of reality.

He may have become president, but speaking the words of the oath out loud may have served to firmly state that official reality.

ETA: Here is a link to the article, available for purchase. (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/04/02/120402fa_fact_caro)

[BaaBaa]

I now think Luciano was referring to Estes Kefauver, not LBJ. And I also think Luciano was making the whole thing up.

However, it does describe Lyndon Johnson and his behavior to a t.

So another persons' behaviour demonstrates that LBJ was corrupt?

[Robert Morrow]

You know, I have no idea whether you story of LBJ getting into a panic after JFK's assassination is true or not (but considering the source I would put quite a bit of money on not), but, if your theory that LBJ was behind the JFK assassination is true, it doesn't make any sense at all that LBJ would be in a panic that "they" were going to kill him next. It looks like you've shot yourself in the foot in your effort to demonstrate how much inside dirt you know about.

LBJ in a panic? Of course he knows he is not due to be shot. He is a psychopath "playacting" for his audience. Overselling, if you ask me.

Read this book and you will understand "Lyndon Johnson: Power Beyond Reason: The Mental Collapse of Lyndon Johnson"

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Beyond-Reason-Collapse-Johnson/dp/1569802432/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334474391&sr=1-1

[Robert Morrow]

You wouldn't believe it anyway.

And as I posted earlier, the only book on your reading list that is worth reading is The Politics of heroin in S.E.A. by McCoy.

That is pretty lame *non-answer.*

Were you working with the US government in its operations against Nicaragua? Were you working for the US government, if so, in what capacity in the countries of El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Panama?

Were you military at the time? What did you do?

Have you personally met either Terry Reed, Barry Seal, Felix Rodriguez, Chip Tatum, Oliver North, William Barr (that is just a starter list)? If so what was your capacity in dealing with those folks?

[Robert Morrow]

Lyndon Johnson was far, far worse than he has been betrayed in his biographies; it doesn't mean he murdered JFK, but he did with the help of military intelligence.

http://thebeerbarrel.net/threads/lbj-texas-sized-son-o-a-bitch.12198/

Mack White:

I worked at the library for about a year. It was easy work, and interesting. I would cue up the tapes on a reel-to-reel player, put on a pair of headphones, and, working a foot pedal to rewind, pause and fast-forward, transcribe interviews that had been conducted with people who had known Johnson at different times of his life.

Most of the interviewees spoke glowingly of him. Even those who were critical of him—Kennedy staffers, most notably—went to some pains to soften their criticism and try to find something nice to say. And yet, despite everyone's best efforts, what emerged from this Citizen Kane-style composite of interviews was not pretty. It was not said in so many words—in fact, was left entirely unsaid—but nothing could obscure the picture: Lyndon Johnson was an overbearing, coarse, ruthless, sociopathic, low-life, power-mad monster.

Another bad habit of his was to dictate letters and conduct meetings while seated on the toilet. Also, if he happened to be near the White House swimming pool, he would suddenly strip naked, no matter who was present, and jump in. His apologists defend these behaviors as harmless eccentricities, a charming earthiness in his character. This earthiness, however, would also cause him to do things less charming, such as fondle women in front of other people, including his wife, Lady Bird.

And these weren't even his worst traits. He was also a bully. In one of the oral histories, I recall a reporter describing an incident in which a drunken Vice President Johnson followed him around at a Washington party all evening, angrily haranguing him about something he had written. The harangue only ended when the man fled the party.

And everyone had stories to tell about Johnson's famous techniques of persuasion: his big face only inches from his victim's, talking, begging, pleading, imploring, threatening, while his hands worked constantly, grabbing an arm, grabbing a lapel, jabbing the chest, grabbing and jabbing and moving ever closer with no regard for social distance, until the victim agreed to whatever Johnson wanted.

These are animal behaviors. Animals defecate in public, for instance, and mate in public, without the least concern for who might see. Also, alpha males of many species engage in various behaviors to assert their dominance. The ape showing its genitals, for instance, has its human counterpart in Johnson stripping in front of everyone for an impromptu skinny-dip. His haranguing the reporter or shouting and gesturing at the heckler also correspond to primate aggression displays. Apes also assert their dominance by mounting their fellow apes, a behavior different only by degree from Johnson's violation of social distance and grabbing and jabbing.

[Tomtomkent]

What a sentence: "it doesn't mean he murdered JFK, but he did..."

So it doesn't mean what it means.


Glad you cleared that right up.

[SpitfireIX]

LBJ in a panic? Of course he knows he is not due to be shot. He is a psychopath "playacting" for his audience. Overselling, if you ask me.


No one asked you.

[Robert Morrow]

What a sentence: "it doesn't mean he murdered JFK, but he did..."

So it doesn't mean what it means.


Glad you cleared that right up.

Just because Lyndon Johnson was a psychopath, sociopath, pathological liar and alcoholic with his own personal hit man Malcolm Wallace and who hated John Kennedy and triply so Robert Kennedy *does not mean in and of itself* that LBJ murdered John Kennedy.

But he did and he had a lot of help from military intelligence. And LBJ certainly was a prime candidate for participation in it.

Here is a book that I consider a psychological "smoking gun" to the JFK assassination - "Power Beyond Reason: The Mental Collapse of Lyndon Johnson"

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Beyond-Reason-Collapse-Johnson/dp/1569802432/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334528173&sr=1-1

[Robert Morrow]

JFK assassination researcher Charles Drago:

"Let me set the record straight: My friend and mentor George Michael Evica correctly understood and thoroughly documented LBJ's criminal role in the assassination conspiracy to be that of Facilitator. He properly identified LBJ as a FALSE Sponsor of the assassination.

Further, George Michael was among the vanguard of deep political scientists who at an early date understood and documented the fact that far from pulling deep political strings, the occupants of the Oval Office were in fact among the puppets whose strings were being pulled by forces who operated behind and above the painted backdrops of Cold War differences.

With the exception, that is, of John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Hence the need for his removal."

[Robert Morrow]

Journalist Robert Novak married an aide of Lyndon Johnson. In summer, 1962, LBJ was telling Novak 1) the Kennedys were losing the Cold War 2) losing to conservatives in Congress and 3) that Robert Kennedy was planning to dump him from the 1964 Democratic ticket.

There is absolutely no question about point #3. RFK was out to politically destroy LBJ and fall 11/22/63 was within days of achieving that goal.

Robert Novak:

"After a Texas-style cookout, LBJ reclined, nearly prone, by the swimming pool. It was just the two of us drinking Scotch, and he spoke with a candor he never bestowed on me before or after. He felt the Kennedy administration was in serious trouble, losing the cold war to the Soviet Union and losing the legislative war to conservatives in Congress. He said that he had done everything the Kennedys had wanted, including foreign missions that only guaranteed him bad publicity.
He was repaid with insults and humiliation, especially from the attorney general. Johnson was sure Bobby Kennedy was plotting to dump him in 1964. "But I'm going to fool them," he said. "I'm going to pack it in after the term ends and go home to Texas." That would have been a huge scoop, but I knew Johnson was just blowing off steam.
As for going back to Texas, the political environment there was hardly more congenial for LBJ than it was in Washington. Johnson's protege, John B. Connally, had just won the Democratic nomination for governor of Texas, which still all but guaranteed election in Texas. As secretary of the Navy, Connally had been the highest Kennedy administration official bearing the LBJ brand.

But campaigning for governor, Connally removed the brand. With JFK and LBJ both unpopular in Texas, Connally ran against the administration he had just left, and won. Talking about Big John in that summer evening in 1962 led Johnson into self-pity. "John has turned my picture to the wall," LBJ told me. "You know I would never turn his picture to the wall.""

[Robert Novak, "The Prince of Darkness," p. 90-91]

[MSgtWeiss]

GHW Bush certainly was a homosexual pederast for a long time. Google "Chip Tatum Pegasus" and you will learn about his terror campaign against Ross Perot in 1992. GHW Bush was heavy into the drug trade in the 1980's with CIA/Clintons/Oliver North.


The fact that you regard the deranged Chip Tatum as some kind of reliable source doesn't add much to your credibility.

Tatum's phony "documentation" was some of the worst, childishly-forged claptrap I've ever seen, which matched his "special ops" fairy tales pretty well. The DD-214 he provided pretty much put the lie to his exploits, but he was so inexperienced in the field he didn't even realize he impeached himself nicely with it, disproving his far-fetched POW claims.

No one who has been anywhere near the intel community or White House correspondence would believe that pathetic White House letter ostensibly signed by George Bush, giving Tatum exemption from responsibility for killing whomever seemed necessary. Oh yes, we just KNOW a President would stick his ass this far out.

One has to wonder at the amazing gullibility of conspiracy freaks that they actually swallow this crapola without reflex vomiting.

[BStrong]

That is pretty lame *non-answer.*

Were you working with the US government in its operations against Nicaragua? Were you working for the US government, if so, in what capacity in the countries of El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Panama?

Were you military at the time? What did you do?

Have you personally met either Terry Reed, Barry Seal, Felix Rodriguez, Chip Tatum, Oliver North, William Barr (that is just a starter list)? If so what was your capacity in dealing with those folks?

Am I under oath?

The major difference between your conspiracy monger reading list and McCoy's work is that McCoy actually spoke with individuals with bona fides, who knew the subject matter. He actually went where the evidence took him.

Your reading list is populated with writers who had theories or political angles and wrote whatever they felt proved their hypothesis - facts be damned. The only place the writers on your list went to is down the rabbit hole.

I would suggest that individuals interested in what went down in the south during this time study the failure of the Christic Institute lawsuit against individuals who they described as being a so-called "Secret Team" of government.

Pay particular attention to what happened when it was time to provide evidence, as in real evidence, not wishful thinking, heresay or rumors, or in some cases, flat out ******** stories from individuals who loved the sound of their own voice, talking to the gullible who loved the sound of their BS right up until they had to prove it in court.

That's the way it goes with grand conspiracies - Murrow's reading list and obsession with sexual misconduct included.

[CORed]

The fact that you regard the deranged Chip Tatum as some kind of reliable source doesn't add much to your credibility.

Tatum's phony "documentation" was some of the worst, childishly-forged claptrap I've ever seen, which matched his "special ops" fairy tales pretty well. The DD-214 he provided pretty much put the lie to his exploits, but he was so inexperienced in the field he didn't even realize he impeached himself nicely with it, disproving his far-fetched POW claims.

No one who has been anywhere near the intel community or White House correspondence would believe that pathetic White House letter ostensibly signed by George Bush, giving Tatum exemption from responsibility for killing whomever seemed necessary. Oh yes, we just KNOW a President would stick his ass this far out.

One has to wonder at the amazing gullibility of conspiracy freaks that they actually swallow this crapola without reflex vomiting.

Oh come on! We all know James Bond had a "license to kill". Why wouldn't American spies have the same?

What's that you say? The James Bond books and movies were works of fiction? Blashpemy! :D