Of the southern European countries, why is it only Italy that has a powerful mafia?

[Humes fork]

Of the southern European nations, why is it Italy that has such powerful mafia groups? Of course there is organized crime in Greece and Spain as well, but those groups appear not to have infiltrated the government and businesses as much as the Italian mafiosos. Why is this? Why are there no comparable Greek or Spanish mafias?

Of course you can point to the Balkan mafias, but the history of the Balkans is quite different from those of Italy, Greece and Spain. So that's a different case entirely.

[Dancing David]

And what is the basis of your data?

Hmmm?

Spain is in southern europe?

[theprestige]

Spain is in southern europe?

Well it's not in northern Europe. It's part of the EU, and ever since the Greek meltdown started, I've heard countless soundbites with European pundits and man-on-the-streets, using north/south to distinguish the Eurozone countries perceived to have shaky economies (Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal).

[epepke]

I don't know if how it could possibly relate to geography, but the reason the Mafia succeeded in the United States was structural. Individuals could easily be replaced. The Jewish and Greek and other gangs were based on individuals, so when they died or retired, so did the gang.

[Damien Evans]

Of the southern European nations, why is it Italy that has such powerful mafia groups? Of course there is organized crime in Greece and Spain as well, but those groups appear not to have infiltrated the government and businesses as much as the Italian mafiosos. Why is this? Why are there no comparable Greek or Spanish mafias?

Of course you can point to the Balkan mafias, but the history of the Balkans is quite different from those of Italy, Greece and Spain. So that's a different case entirely.

You do realise Greece is in The Balkans, don't you?

[Darth Rotor]

Hume, are you familiar with the error of begging a question?

In other words, do you understand the problem of asking a question with an answer already assumed but not shown?

Have you ever heard of a place called Corsica?

[Complexity]

Perhaps he should read more and create fewer threads...

[Humes fork]

And what is the basis of your data?

Can you find a lot of information about the Spanish and Greek mafias?

Spain is in southern europe?

Yes. It's one of the most southern countries in Europe.

I don't know if how it could possibly relate to geography, but the reason the Mafia succeeded in the United States was structural. Individuals could easily be replaced. The Jewish and Greek and other gangs were based on individuals, so when they died or retired, so did the gang.

Wasn't the reason that the Italian (and Irish) communities were poor, insular and had poor relations with the wider American society?

From what I know, the Italian mafia in the US was family-based.

You do realise Greece is in The Balkans, don't you?

My mistake, I meant former Yugoslavia.

Hume, are you familiar with the error of begging a question?

In other words, do you understand the problem of asking a question with an answer already assumed but not shown?

Yes.

Have you ever heard of a place called Corsica?

Yes.

Perhaps he should read more and create fewer threads...

Perhaps you should shut up.

[Crossbow]

Of the southern European nations, why is it Italy that has such powerful mafia groups? Of course there is organized crime in Greece and Spain as well, but those groups appear not to have infiltrated the government and businesses as much as the Italian mafiosos. Why is this? Why are there no comparable Greek or Spanish mafias?

Of course you can point to the Balkan mafias, but the history of the Balkans is quite different from those of Italy, Greece and Spain. So that's a different case entirely.

Psst!

I have a hot tip for you!

If there actually is a really good organized criminal organization which has infiltrated one or more national governments, then their activities would not be in the news and you would not be able to find out about said activities.

[Complexity]

<nasty little comment snipped>


Simply commenting on the number and quality of OPs that you generate.

Have you considered that 'mafia' is an Italian word for a type of gang (organized crime syndicate, whatever)?

Is it so surprising that 'mafia' is used for Italian organized thuggery and that other words, in other languages, might be used for organized thuggery in other countries?

Does it have to be any more complicated than this?

Of course, not.

This thread was rather unnecessary, don't you think?

[Humes fork]

Psst!

I have a hot tip for you!

If there actually is a really good organized criminal organization which has infiltrated one or more national governments, then their activities would not be in the news and you would not be able to find out about said activities.

Infiltrated is perhaps* the wrong word, but the Italian gangs have certainly corrupted them, at least in southern Italy. In certain countries (unsure about Italy) journalists who write on gangsters risk their lives in the process. Ask Roberto Saviano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Saviano).

*Actually, Berlusconi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi#Allegations) has been reported for collusion with the mafia.

Have you considered that 'mafia' is an Italian word for a type of gang (organized crime syndicate, whatever)?

Is it so surprising that 'mafia' is used for Italian organized thuggery and that other words, in other languages, might be used for organized thuggery in other countries?

Sure the word is of Italian origin, but is nowadays also used to describe organized crime of that sort in other countries. Unless you completely isolate yourself from ever reading news or books, you know this. Hence you are just trolling.

[Ryokan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_mafia

[Ryokan]

Of the southern European nations, why is it Italy that has such powerful mafia groups? Of course there is organized crime in Greece and Spain as well, but those groups appear not to have infiltrated the government and businesses as much as the Italian mafiosos. Why is this? Why are there no comparable Greek or Spanish mafias?

Of course you can point to the Balkan mafias, but the history of the Balkans is quite different from those of Italy, Greece and Spain. So that's a different case entirely.

I'm not sure why you handwave away the Balkan mafias. Most of the Balkans is in southern Europe, so why don't they count? Why would history make a difference for you, when your question related to a geographical area?

My mistake, I meant former Yugoslavia.

Then surely the Albanian mafia counts?

[Spindrift]

What's the point of this thread?

Why are you comparing Italy to Spain and Greece and not France and Austria?

[Jensen]

I agree that the Italian mafia is unique, and stands out as an example of what a weak government poisoned with corruption and nepotism, can do to an otherwise civilized country. The Italian mafia is integrated in all levels of society in a way we don't see anywhere else in Europe, except perhaps Russia. Other European crime syndicates can be very brutal, large and wealthy, but they are not part of the local culture and society in the same way.

Quick introduction on the Italian mafia: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/organizedcrime/italian_mafia

Excellent article on organized crime in Europe: http://www.organized-crime.de/KlausvonLampeOCEuropePolicing2008.pdf

[HansMustermann]

I would like to add that most of the "mafia" historically wasn't actually all that organized and family based as Hollywood presents it. In fact, pretty much the other way around, rather than Scorsese's films being about previous real mafiosi, it's more like they influenced some future mafiosi to try to be more like that romanticized and honourable thing.

In reality, most of the historical mafia everywhere has been more like, as Complexity puts it, thuggery and making money by any means available. American "mafia" gangs have been known to stoop as low as smashing parking meters for a handful of coins. We're talking about something which actually was a lot less like like secret societies manipulating first world governments, and more like illiterate thugs being willing to do whatever violent thing it takes to make some money, including any illegal stuff.

It also contains a too ill defined range of illegal activities, to be able to look at some crime gang and say that that one's mafia, while the other one is totally not mafia. It includes everything from mugging or stealing for money, to robbing with threats of violence (which extortion is really a form of), to smuggling just about anything illegal, to prostitution (yeah, a lot of supposedly big time mafiosi were really just head-pimps of some prostitution rings), to shady business practices, to everything.

It's also things which happened in other countries at various times and places even if they weren't called thus. E.g., the German robber barons (and I mean the real thing, not the pejorative name for industrialists) extorting illegal tolls from merchants.

[Humes fork]

I'm not sure why you handwave away the Balkan mafias. Most of the Balkans is in southern Europe, so why don't they count? Why would history make a difference for you, when your question related to a geographical area?

If you look at history, Yugoslavia has been a border region, first between Islam and Christendom, and the later between the East Bloc and the West Bloc during Cold War. There are always people who want to trade with those on the other side of the border, hence it breeds smugglers. Also, Yugoslavia not long ago had quite a few wars, from which their gangsters profited handsomely.

The modern histories of Greece, Italy and Spain are rather different.

Then surely the Albanian mafia counts?

Well, this is why I originally wrote Balkans, as the modern history of Albania is a bit alike that of Yugoslavia (no civil wars though).

[Ryokan]

So what you're really asking is why, of the southern European countries, except for countries that are different from Italy, why is it only Italy that has a powerful mafia?

If history trumps geography, why didn't you say so in the OP and only mention geography as your criteria?

[Zelenius]

Of the southern European nations, why is it Italy that has such powerful mafia groups? Of course there is organized crime in Greece and Spain as well, but those groups appear not to have infiltrated the government and businesses as much as the Italian mafiosos. Why is this? Why are there no comparable Greek or Spanish mafias?

Of course you can point to the Balkan mafias, but the history of the Balkans is quite different from those of Italy, Greece and Spain. So that's a different case entirely.

This is an interesting though flawed question. Since the mafia is more a phenomenon of southern Italy than northern Italy, perhaps it would have been better to compare these two regions of Italy than to compare organized crime in Italy to the perceived lack of organized crime in countries with very different histories.

That said, perhaps the works of Francis Fukuyama (http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/seminar/1999/reforms/fukuyama.htm) can help get you closer to answering your question. He has written a lot about the importance of social capital in shaping the destinies of various countries. Countries with poor social capital(lack of trust, lack of community-mindedness) tend to have less stable governments than countries with strong social capital. They also tend to be less democratic and breed more corruption. Mafia groups will tend to thrive more in regions with poor social capital since the government is weak and/or the people don't trust it. The people living in such places will tend to be more clannish and insular as a result(although it's probably more of a vicious cycle).

The social capital in Greece and Italy is similar I think, but Greek organized crime isn't as notorious or well known as its Italian counterpart. It probably isn't as well "organized" either, and these days many Albanians and other outsiders are involved in it. Also, the Italian mafia tends to have large operations in the U.S(especially in the drug trade), which gives a boost to the mafia back in Italy; the Italian-American community is huge(around 20 million), while the Greek-American(at most 3 million if you count people who are part Greek) and Spanish-American(directly from Spain - less than a million) communities are much smaller.

I've been studying various ethnic-based mafias for years now. It's always interesting to compare their operations. Lately I've been reading a lot about the Armenian mafia of southern California. They rarely make big news outside of California these days.

[Humes fork]

I would like to add that most of the "mafia" historically wasn't actually all that organized and family based as Hollywood presents it. In fact, pretty much the other way around, rather than Scorsese's films being about previous real mafiosi, it's more like they influenced some future mafiosi to try to be more like that romanticized and honourable thing.

But aren't the Italians family-oriented in organization, at least at the core of it? If I'm not mistaken, in the book McMafia the author describes the difference between the Russian gangsters (at least those gaining prominence in the early 90s) as not being family-based (like the Italians) but rather being purely money-based, resulting in extremely high death rates in their wars.

In reality, most of the historical mafia everywhere has been more like, as Complexity puts it, thuggery and making money by any means available. American "mafia" gangs have been known to stoop as low as smashing parking meters for a handful of coins. We're talking about something which actually was a lot less like like secret societies manipulating first world governments, and more like illiterate thugs being willing to do whatever violent thing it takes to make some money, including any illegal stuff.

But the American mafia was able to infiltrate trade unions (thereby gaining a legal cover for their income). If I'm not mistaken the Italian mafiosos generate 5% of the country's GDP. That's very different from the rabble that makes up for organized crime here.

It also contains a too ill defined range of illegal activities, to be able to look at some crime gang and say that that one's mafia, while the other one is totally not mafia. It includes everything from mugging or stealing for money, to robbing with threats of violence (which extortion is really a form of), to smuggling just about anything illegal, to prostitution (yeah, a lot of supposedly big time mafiosi were really just head-pimps of some prostitution rings), to shady business practices, to everything.

Sure. But what is categorized as "mafia" typically focuses on things with higher returns on investments like drugs, and then laundering the money, as well as exhortion, don't they?

So what you're really asking is why, of the southern European countries, except for countries that are different from Italy, why is it only Italy that has a powerful mafia?

If history trumps geography, why didn't you say so in the OP and only mention geography as your criteria?

That Italy, Greece and Spain have more similar modern histories than either of them has with Albania should not be a controversial statement.

[Aepervius]

Have you ever heard of a place called Corsica?

Yeah. Small island. Like to explode vacancy home with gas bottle. Local mafia. And an incredible number of "vertical" grasing field for cow (long running joke about corsica had at a time more subsidy than many traditional region with cow on the mainland).

You wanna buy get for free we give you money and you take the island ? Most of us would glady give that province up.

[Ausmerican]

Yeah. Small island. Like to explode vacancy home with gas bottle. Local mafia. And an incredible number of "vertical" grasing field for cow (long running joke about corsica had at a time more subsidy than many traditional region with cow on the mainland).

You wanna buy get for free we give you money and you take the island ? Most of us would glady give that province up.

How much will you pay and can it be towed?

[Humes fork]

I agree that the Italian mafia is unique, and stands out as an example of what a weak government poisoned with corruption and nepotism, can do to an otherwise civilized country. The Italian mafia is integrated in all levels of society in a way we don't see anywhere else in Europe, except perhaps Russia.

I agree but from what I understand the Russian and Italian mobsters have different backgrounds. The Italian gangsters were originally rabble, whereas the Russian gangsters to a large part consist of KGB and other former government employees. In general, many intelligence service employees in the former USSR already had networks established that were excellent for smuggling.

I also recall watching a documentary about the Russia mafia. According to it, many Russian gangsters are highly educated with degrees in fields like economics and engineering.

Other European crime syndicates can be very brutal, large and wealthy, but they are not part of the local culture and society in the same way.

This is my perception as well.

Quick introduction on the Italian mafia: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/organizedcrime/italian_mafia

Excellent article on organized crime in Europe: http://www.organized-crime.de/KlausvonLampeOCEuropePolicing2008.pdf

Very interesting, thanks.

This is an interesting though flawed question. Since the mafia is more a phenomenon of southern Italy than northern Italy, perhaps it would have been better to compare these two regions of Italy than to compare organized crime in Italy to the perceived lack of organized crime in countries with very different histories.

So northern Italy is very different from southern Italy?

I don't deny that there is organized crime in Greece and Spain (it exists in all countries), but it doesn't seem to have infiltrated society as much in these countries as in Italy. As you know, all three were in the West bloc during the Cold War and are EU members, so their modern histories are rather alike.

That said, perhaps the works of Francis Fukuyama can help get you closer to answering your question. He has written a lot about the importance of social capital in shaping the destinies of various countries. Countries with poor social capital(lack of trust, lack of community-mindedness) tend to have less stable governments than countries with strong social capital. They also tend to be less democratic and breed more corruption. Mafia groups will tend to thrive more in regions with poor social capital since the government is weak and/or the people don't trust it. The people living in such places will tend to be more clannish and insular as a result(although it's probably more of a vicious cycle).

Seems reasonable. I've heard many times that the reason corruption is so low in Sweden is because of high levels of trust in society. But is the trust in (southern) Italy significantly lower than in Greece or Spain?

The social capital in Greece and Italy is similar I think, but Greek organized crime isn't as notorious or well known as its Italian counterpart. It probably isn't as well "organized" either, and these days many Albanians and other outsiders are involved in it. Also, the Italian mafia tends to have large operations in the U.S(especially in the drug trade), which gives a boost to the mafia back in Italy; the Italian-American community is huge(around 20 million), while the Greek-American(at most 3 million if you count people who are part Greek) and Spanish-American(directly from Spain - less than a million) communities are much smaller.

Well yes. There is a reason after all that we imported the word "mafia" and not the Greek or Spanish equivalent. Btw I didn't know that the Italian-American gangsters were still in touch with the Italian gangsters in Italy.

I've been studying various ethnic-based mafias for years now. It's always interesting to compare their operations. Lately I've been reading a lot about the Armenian mafia of southern California. They rarely make big news outside of California these days.

Never heard of them. California seems to be an awful long distance from home for these guys though.

[Zelenius]

So northern Italy is very different from southern Italy?

There are a lot of differences between northern Italians and southern Italians. Many northern Italians tend to look down on southern Italians; some even refuse to see them as "real" Italians. Indeed, Sicilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language) is considered a separate language from Italian by many linguists, not just a dialect.

The further north you go in Italy, the more it starts to resemble Central Europe. The further south you go, the more it becomes like the Middle East - social capital starts disappearing(but the food gets tastier). The problems of southern Italy are similar to the problems in the "low trust" societies of the Middle East, which are closely intertwined with clannishness. Sicily and other parts of southern Italy were even occupied by Muslims for a few centuries.


I don't deny that there is organized crime in Greece and Spain (it exists in all countries), but it doesn't seem to have infiltrated society as much in these countries as in Italy. As you know, all three were in the West bloc during the Cold War and are EU members, so their modern histories are rather alike.

It may be instructive to compare Sicily with Greece, since so many Sicilians have Greek ancestry (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/08/sicilian-y-chromosomes-greek-and-north.html). The reason the mafia became so powerful in Sicily and not in Greece may be due to the very uneasy transition from feudalism to capitalism (http://mafiascene.net/forum/63-real-mob-stories/4146-the-genesis-of-the-sicilian-mafia-pre-1900) in the 19th century and lack of police to enforce property rights. The mafia stepped in to fill the void, often hired by rich land-owners. The citrus orchards in Sicily were very profitable, and various criminal elements wanted a slice of the citrus pie.

For some reason, organized crime in Greece seems to be disproportionately run by Albanians. Albanians remind me a lot of Sicilians, with their blood fueds, honor codes, and clannishness. This is kind of off topic, but the financial mess in Greece is another symptom of a low-trust/high corruption society, in my opinion. Interestingly enough, Spain and Portugal have similar economic issues.


Seems reasonable. I've heard many times that the reason corruption is so low in Sweden is because of high levels of trust in society. But is the trust in (southern) Italy significantly lower than in Greece or Spain?

According to Fukuyama, Sweden and most northern and western European countries are "high trust societies" due to their high level of social capital. This is why saying something like "Swedish Mafia" always sounds like a joke. The Middle East and North Africa are "low trust societies". Much of southern Europe is a transition zone between these two extremes. Endemic in so many low-trust societies is the practice of first cousin marriage(this is one of the things I mean by "clannishness") - this greatly undermines nation-building, democratic governance, and social progress in the Middle East and Africa. It is also associated with corruption.

To answer your question, according to a recent survery (http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results), it does look like Italy(67th least corrupt country in the world) as a whole is more corrupt than Spain(30th least corrupt country), but not as corrupt as Greece(78), which may reflect the level of trust people have in their government institutions. If Sicily/Southern Italy were a separate country, I imagine it would rank very close to Greece. This isn't very scientific, but it's all we have.

The Armenian mafia I mentioned before may just be a branch of the "Russian" mafia depending on how you look at it. I put "Russian" in quotes since while this powerful mafia group may be Russian-speaking, and does include some ethnic Russians, it's largely made up of lots of different semi-Russified ethnicities from eastern Europe and the Caucasus.

[Humes fork]

There are a lot of differences between northern Italians and southern Italians. Many northern Italians tend to look down on southern Italians; some even refuse to see them as "real" Italians. Indeed, Sicilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language) is considered a separate language from Italian by many linguists, not just a dialect.

The further north you go in Italy, the more it starts to resemble Central Europe. The further south you go, the more it becomes like the Middle East - social capital starts disappearing(but the food gets tastier). The problems of southern Italy are similar to the problems in the "low trust" societies of the Middle East, which are closely intertwined with clannishness. Sicily and other parts of southern Italy were even occupied by Muslims for a few centuries.

Oh I see. It seems like two countries have been artificially put together in modern Italy then.

It may be instructive to compare Sicily with Greece, since so many Sicilians have Greek ancestry (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/08/sicilian-y-chromosomes-greek-and-north.html). The reason the mafia became so powerful in Sicily and not in Greece may be due to the very uneasy transition from feudalism to capitalism (http://mafiascene.net/forum/63-real-mob-stories/4146-the-genesis-of-the-sicilian-mafia-pre-1900) in the 19th century and lack of police to enforce property rights. The mafia stepped in to fill the void, often hired by rich land-owners. The citrus orchards in Sicily were very profitable, and various criminal elements wanted a slice of the citrus pie.

I'd think culture is more important than genetics. But otherwise, yes, that seems likely. From what I've heard Sicily was always more lawless than the north.

For some reason, organized crime in Greece seems to be disproportionately run by Albanians. Albanians remind me a lot of Sicilians, with their blood fueds, honor codes, and clannishness. This is kind of off topic, but the financial mess in Greece is another symptom of a low-trust/high corruption society, in my opinion. Interestingly enough, Spain and Portugal have similar economic issues.

So it seems like the culture is very important then. The question then is what makes a society more or less clannish.

And yes, the Greek problems are certainly partially caused by their high levels of corruption.

According to Fukuyama, Sweden and most northern and western European countries are "high trust societies" due to their high level of social capital. This is why saying something like "Swedish Mafia" always sounds like a joke. The Middle East and North Africa are "low trust societies". Much of southern Europe is a transition zone between these two extremes. Endemic in so many low-trust societies is the practice of first cousin marriage(this is one of the things I mean by "clannishness") - this greatly undermines nation-building, democratic governance, and social progress in the Middle East and Africa. It is also associated with corruption.

Actually there is organized crime here too. The police has recently been using methods used by Italian and British polices to break what is often called the Södertälje network or the Södertälje mafia. That group however is composed of virtually exclusively Assyrians. Though these kind of people are rabble, they are not as organized or influential as the Italian mafias.

To answer your question, according to a recent survery (http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results), it does look like Italy(67th least corrupt country in the world) as a whole is more corrupt than Spain(30th least corrupt country), but not as corrupt as Greece(78), which may reflect the level of trust people have in their government institutions. If Sicily/Southern Italy were a separate country, I imagine it would rank very close to Greece. This isn't very scientific, but it's all we have.

It seems likely.

The Armenian mafia I mentioned before may just be a branch of the "Russian" mafia depending on how you look at it. I put "Russian" in quotes since while this powerful mafia group may be Russian-speaking, and does include some ethnic Russians, it's largely made up of lots of different semi-Russified ethnicities from eastern Europe and the Caucasus.

Yes, if I'm not mistaken the Russian mafia is to a large extent composed of groups that were disadvantaged during Soviet era, like Chechens and Georgians.