Convicted Nazi criminal John Demjanjuk dead

[shemp]

link (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57399345/convicted-nazi-criminal-john-demjanjuk-dead)

BERLIN - German police say John Demjanjuk, who was convicted last year of serving as a Nazi death camp guard, has died.

Rosenheim police official Kilian Steger told The Associated Press that the 91-year-old died Saturday at a home for the elderly in southern Germany where he has stayed since his trial ended in Munich last year.

Steger says prosecutors in nearby Traunstein are looking into the case as a routine procedure.

Demjanjuk, a retired Ohio autoworker, was deported to Germany in 2009 to face trial in Munich after being stripped of his U.S. citizenship.

I'll come back and post my comments later.

[Cleon]

One of those times where I kinda wish I believed in Hell.

[Monketey Ghost]

If he really was the guy, that's one fewer.

[WildCat]

If he really was the guy, that's one fewer.
Yeah, but this case is so sketchy I have no idea if he was or wasn't the guy.

[Monketey Ghost]

Yeah, but this case is so sketchy I have no idea if he was or wasn't the guy.

One of those things where I have to say, "I'm sure the people with access to all the information know better than me".

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I predict that one or more of the usual gang of idiots will be along within 24 hours to crap all over this thread.

/patiently awaiting my 1 million dollars

[Redtail]

One of those times where I kinda wish I believed in Hell.

Yup.

[TubbaBlubba]

I'm rarely sure how to feel about these people. Those in positions of authority and execution, sure, those can be burdened by ample blame, but a death camp guard?

I'm not sure. I can't really begin to understand their mindset, or the zeitgeist, that made it possible to have so many go along with this.

I guess I should read more on it and try to understand it better...

[Ian Osborne]

Yeah, but this case is so sketchy I have no idea if he was or wasn't the guy.

That's my thoughts too.

[Checkmite]

He was allowed to live out of prison for the duration of his appeal, so...meh.

[casebro]

He is no longer "convicted", by U.S. standards. Dying before the appeals are exhausted cancels the 'conviction' because he hasn't had the full benefit of 'due process'. It's kind of hard to mount a full defense if you can't make it to court. Hey. he wouldn't be 'convicted' if he won the appeal, right? So, give him the benefit of 'presumed innocence until appeals are exhausted'.

I always figured it was a waste to go after an 80-something year old man for something he might have done 70 years earlier.

Maybe now Demjanjuk and Weisenthal can both rest quietly.

[Sherman Bay]

I always figured it was a waste to go after an 80-something year old man for something he might have done 70 years earlier. Some crimes are so horrendous that harboring a grudge for 70 years isn't unreasonable.

[Architect]

He is no longer "convicted", by U.S. standards.

Remind me what country he was convicted in, please?

[Beerina]

I always figured it was a waste to go after an 80-something year old man for something he might have done 70 years earlier.

It's about a lot more than just prosecuting one old man.

It's about showing the world that if you do something really, really rotten, they'll come after you, regardless of how old you get, and serve justice.

So that, should such a thing happen again in the future, every last officer and soldier will know that, once they are defeated, they will be hounded to the absolute ends of their days.

Hopefully that will be a deterrence.

[Roadtoad]

Right. It worked so well with Milosevic.

That said, the evidence in the case of Demjanjuk was never as airtight as claimed. Should it have been investigated? Without question. Did he commit crimes against humanity? That's something else, simply because we don't have all the facts. His conviction in Israel for being Ivan the Terrible was overturned, but the Israeli High Court held that while he wasn't Ivan, he had likely been in Sobibor, and he may well have committed high crimes.

If your goal is justice, you have a long fight here, simply because the man is dead doesn't mean it's over.

[Ian Osborne]

Right. It worked so well with Milosevic.

And William Calley. No prosecutions for juniors and low-ranks there.

[NoahFence]

Any day a Nazi or one of their sympathizers takes the dirt nap is a good day indeed.

[Ian Osborne]

Any day a Nazi or one of their sympathizers takes the dirt nap is a good day indeed.

I certainly wouldn't miss an enthusiastic, knowledgeable Nazi, but I often wonder what I'd do - and indeed what I'd think - if I was a teenager in Germany, 1933.

[TubbaBlubba]

I certainly wouldn't miss an enthusiastic, knowledgeable Nazi, but I often wonder what I'd do - and indeed what I'd think - if I was a teenager in Germany, 1933.

That's sort of my thought too. It's easy to resent and condemn Hitler, Göbbels and Mengele, but it's not at all as easy to condemn a random death camp guard. I'm sure it brought out a lot of psychos, but also some ordinary people who ended up like that because of contingencies.

[Arisia]

Honest question -
Is there any archive of 'average' death camp guards/low level Nazis willingly showing any remorse or disgust, or willingly admitting guilt after-the-fact for the small roles they played in the misery of the Holocaust and the Nazi Regime?

[WildCat]

I certainly wouldn't miss an enthusiastic, knowledgeable Nazi, but I often wonder what I'd do - and indeed what I'd think - if I was a teenager in Germany, 1933.
In Demjanjuk's case he was a Ukrainian drafted into the Soviet army and captured by the Germans. Stalin had starved the Ukraine in the 1930s, so I don't think he had much love for Stalin and the Soviets, and besides captured Soviet fighters didn't fare too well as POWs in Germany (like Germans captured by the Soviets). So like many other captured Ukrainians he joined the German army to fight the Soviets.

We know that much for certain, whether or not he was "Ivan the Terrible" is certainly open for debate. The key piece of evidence against him are ID papers supplied by the Soviet Union, and there are questions about their authenticity. The Soviets certainly had motive to frame someone they saw as a traitor.

The whole thing is a mess, and I don't put much faith in eyewitness memory from half a century prior.

[Beerina]

Right. It worked so well with Milosevic.

That said, the evidence in the case of Demjanjuk was never as airtight as claimed. Should it have been investigated? Without question. Did he commit crimes against humanity? That's something else, simply because we don't have all the facts. His conviction in Israel for being Ivan the Terrible was overturned, but the Israeli High Court held that while he wasn't Ivan, he had likely been in Sobibor, and he may well have committed high crimes.

If your goal is justice, you have a long fight here, simply because the man is dead doesn't mean it's over.

There's still defiling the body, true.

[ddt]

In Demjanjuk's case he was a Ukrainian drafted into the Soviet army and captured by the Germans. Stalin had starved the Ukraine in the 1930s, so I don't think he had much love for Stalin and the Soviets, and besides captured Soviet fighters didn't fare too well as POWs in Germany (like Germans captured by the Soviets). So like many other captured Ukrainians he joined the German army to fight the Soviets.
As a POW, he was transferred to Trawniki, a training ground for camp guards.


We know that much for certain, whether or not he was "Ivan the Terrible" is certainly open for debate. The key piece of evidence against him are ID papers supplied by the Soviet Union, and there are questions about their authenticity. The Soviets certainly had motive to frame someone they saw as a traitor.

The whole thing is a mess, and I don't put much faith in eyewitness memory from half a century prior.
The "Ivan the Terrible" claim was indeed based on papers supplied by the Soviets. But then, nobody believes anymore he was "Ivan the Terrible" who served in Treblinka. IIRC, part of the evidence which saved him from the death penalty in Israel was evidence that he served at the time as a camp guard in Sobibor instead. And that's what he has been convicted of in Germany. AFAIK, there's very little doubt about his time there.

[Roadtoad]

There's still defiling the body, true.

True. Tragically true.