Was America Really Founded Upon Christianity?

[TexasBEAST]

We hear it all the time. Especially from conservative radio talk show hosts. 'America was founded upon Judeo-Christian values.' 'While there is a plurality of religious views in this country, America's core values come from the Bible.'

Any truth to this?

Or was America founded primarily upon the Reawakening/Enlightenment secular philosophical movement?

What about the NT's commands to submit to rulers? (I vaguely recall the Founders did the exact opposite of submitting.)

What about the NT's orders to turn the other cheek, walk another mile, and basically just take it? (Didn't the Founders believe in the notion of freedom and liberty?)

What about the NT's commands to sell all your property, give your money to the poor, start a socialistic commune, etc.? (Seems to me that the Founders liked their property and fought to hold on to it--not give it away.)

What about the NT's repeated claims that the end of the world was upon us, so don't take any interest in this world's affairs, don't worry about the future, and just focus, fixate, obsess, and fanaticize about Christ? (Wouldn't the creation of a whole new form of government constitute some degree of concern about the future and active involvement in worldly affairs?)

What about the NT's instructions to reject any newfangled philosophy or wisdom that might come along afterward?

What about the fact that the "Word of God" claims to be constant and eternal and never-changing (because of divine perfection, of course), while the Founders readily admitted that their efforts could stand some improvement, so they included processes for vigorous debate and amendments?

Just seems like the 'Christian origins' claim gets thrown around a little too casually sometimes. Any comments for or against?

[susheel]

From what I remember from my school History, the Pilgrims who landed at Plymouth rock came with the intention of starting a Protestant Christian colony...a new Eden in the Biblical mould. Where Christian values would rein supreme.

The key word here is 'colony'...I doubt if an independent nation was in their mind. Incidentally the continent was already settled by Europen settlers who had no such intention and whose motives were of a more economic nature.

It is only in the constitiution that the idea of separate Nation is first formally put forth. From what I gather, the drafters were pretty careful to see to it that they kept it as secular as they could.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by susheel:
It is only in the constitiution that the idea of separate Nation is first formally put forth. From what I gather, the drafters were pretty careful to see to it that they kept it as secular as they could.

IIRC many of the drafters were quite irreligious. Thomas Jefferson especially made atheistic remarks from time to time.

[Denise]

Putting aside if America was founded by Christian values, what does it matter?

I mean a lot of countries were founded by people who believed that their monarchs deserved their power by God. Is that really relevent to their nations today? Feudalism is dead in most countries. People move on, governments change.

[Agammamon]

Unfortunately, that arguement can be used quite persuasively to institute a theocracy. You can say that it doesn't matter what the Founders had in mind, that was then and this is now.

[Michael Redman]

Whatever their personal feelings, they clearly set up a government that is decidedly secular, and in doing so, they made a notable deviation from the standard of the day. It's pretty hard to argue that they intended to create a "christian" nation, when they went out of their way to avoid doing just that.

[corplinx]

As any good conspiracy theorist can tell you, the country was founded on freemasonry.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by TexasBEAST
We hear it all the time. Especially from conservative radio talk show hosts. 'America was founded upon Judeo-Christian values.' 'While there is a plurality of religious views in this country, America's core values come from the Bible.'



Since the only (for the most part) people who will hear this, is people who already believe it, I can't see what much difference it will/does make..

As far as the ' core values of the Bible ' are concerned, they can be pretty ambiguous, and be confused with the core values of any morally responsible society.

Of course, the same could be said about it's core predjudices.

[Denise]

I find it hilarious that many Christians believe that our country was founded upon Christianity and want the "Ten commandments" exhibited in government buildings, yet they break the commandment about worshipping on the Sabbath, which is clearly Saturday and not Sunday.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Denise
I find it hilarious that many Christians believe that our country was founded upon Christianity and want the "Ten commandments" exhibited in government buildings, yet they break the commandment about worshipping on the Sabbath, which is clearly Saturday and not Sunday.


Actually I think Thursday was the Sabbath when God issued the commandments.. All the changes in the calendar and the rotation of the earth slowing down a bit have pushed it up to Sunday..

[Solitaire]

Originally posted by TexasBEAST
Any comments for or against?
Well, I dug around and only fount a short PDF on the matter. State & Church (http://www.rationalists.org/pubs/newsletters/RCjanfeb03.pdf)
Did it help?

[Kiri]

Originally posted by corplinx
As any good conspiracy theorist can tell you, the country was founded on freemasonry.

No, no, this country was founded on the bodies of the Indians!
We stole it fair and square!

[Kiri]

Originally posted by TexasBEAST
We hear it all the time. Especially from conservative radio talk show hosts. 'America was founded upon Judeo-Christian values.' 'While there is a plurality of religious views in this country, America's core values come from the Bible.'

Any truth to this?

Or was America founded primarily upon the Reawakening/Enlightenment secular philosophical movement?

Just seems like the 'Christian origins' claim gets thrown around a little too casually sometimes. Any comments for or against?

Seriously, I think this is supposed to be a secular, humanist state, inasmuch that it was founded by secular humanists. These guys knew what trouble comes from collusion between church and state, and didn't want any of it.
The ratchetjaws who claim otherwise are attempting to establish a retroactive endorsement of their own narrow political and social agendas.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by corplinx

As any good conspiracy theorist can tell you, the country was founded on freemasonry.

Originally posted by Kiri

No, no, this country was founded on the bodies of the Indians!
We stole it fair and square! No, no, no... you guys are both higher than kites.

The first thing the early settlers did when they happened upon a likely spot to set up housekeeping, was build a brewery, and an alehouse. They only got around to building churches, and oppressing the natives after they had taken care of the essentials.

This country was founded on beer... and it remains true to its roots to this very day. Glory, glory, hallelujah... sniff(wiping a tear from my eye).

[patnray]

The individual colonies were established with deep religious roots, including persecution of other beliefs (including Jews). As explained in the Curch & State article, the framers of the constitution wanted to free the nation from such squabbles and deliberately avoided religion as a basis for civil authority.

So, the COLONIES were established on "Christian" values, but COUNTRY was established on secular/human values...

[Advocate]

I don't think the Founders intended to create a "Christian nation", especially since that would beg the question of what type of Christianity. But I don't think they intended to banish religion from public life either. It often seems to me that the government (except for politicians acting in their roles as candidates) is actively hostile toward religion generally and Christianity in particular. Since they included prohibitions against both "establishment of religion" and prohibiting "the free excercise thereof", it seems to me they intended the state to be neutral with regard to one religion versus another. Of course they didn't anticipate the state becoming involved in so much of our daily lives that the First Amendment would end up being used to keep religion out of public life. With so much of our lives today entangled with government programs, I wonder if it is even possible for the government to be neutral with regard to religion any more. IMHO the larger and more intrusive a government is, the harder it is to be neutral about anything.

[Kiri]

Originally posted by Psiload
No, no, no... you guys are both higher than kites.

Not at the moment, I'm not!


The first thing the early settlers did when they happened upon a likely spot to set up housekeeping, was build a brewery, and an alehouse. They only got around to building churches, and oppressing the natives after they had taken care of the essentials.

This country was founded on beer... and it remains true to its roots to this very day. Glory, glory, hallelujah... sniff(wiping a tear from my eye).

Hear, hear! (raises a frosty mug in salute)

(Love the Alex avatar... Did "Clockwork Orange" make it onto the cult movies thread?)

[TexasBEAST]

All the jokes are great, guys & gals, but could we address it based on the Bible? I know it's demeaning and disgusting to argue anything upon that basis, but I just wanted to turn their own material against them. And not just with witty one-liner quotes taken out of context. What are some of the integral "core values" that pertain to this subject?

Originally posted by Kiri
The ratchetjaws who claim otherwise are attempting to establish a retroactive endorsement of their own narrow political and social agendas.
That's conservatism for ya. If you want something to appear legit and authoritative, reinterpret the past and put words into the mouths of your heroes. Make it appear that you are only preserving or returning to the old ways, instead of just pulling something slick and slimy outta your arse!

Here's another take: It's kinda like how religionists are quick to call it a "miracle" anytime something good happens. They want their religion to get the credit. America is such a prosperous nation because--why else--it must've been based on Biblical teachings. We must be doing something right according to the Bible, or else God woulda done smitten us all by now.

[TexasBEAST]

Originally posted by patnray
The individual colonies were established with deep religious roots, including persecution of other beliefs (including Jews). As explained in the Curch & State article, the framers of the constitution wanted to free the nation from such squabbles and deliberately avoided religion as a basis for civil authority.

So, the COLONIES were established on "Christian" values, but COUNTRY was established on secular/human values...
You hit it on the head, Patnray. This is an important point that proponents of both sides of the aisle seem to miss all the time. Our Founders didn't want the central gov't to be mixed with religion, but many (not all) were perfectly happy for it to be mixed at the local level. Only a few states saw the universal problems with establishments of religion (e.g., Virginia and Rhode Island) and banned it outright. But the majority thought local leadership would be responsive enough to the actual needs of the people that it would be alright to incorporate religion into local politics. They only feared the big bad feds getting tangled in with it.

Too many religionists falsely interpret the statists' pro-establishment stance as a would-be federalists' pro-establishment stance. They're confusing the issue.

And too many separatists/disestablishmentarians falsely interpret the federalists' anti-establishment stance as a would-be universal anti-establishment stance. They're confusing things, themselves.

For a long while, we sadly had a situation where it was considered perfectly wrong for the national gov't to collude with religion, but perfectly OK for the states to do so. (Another failure of the Founders, methinks, like slavery...)

At any rate, this conundrum was partially fixed with the US Supreme Court's "incorporation" doctrine, which basically says that (in some cases) the civil rights guaranteed by the federal constitution must be considered to also be guaranteed by the states, even if not explicitly stated in the state constitutions. So if the US gov't couldn't approach an establishment of religion, then neither could state gov't's. Or, at least, in theory.

States-rightist hold-outs keep resisting it. Another source of resistance comes from the fact that establishments of religion at the state level are simply so thoroughly engrained in many people's minds because of time, history, and tradition, that that's all they know.

Change--it's a bitch, ain't it?

[Kiri]

Originally posted by TexasBEAST
All the jokes are great, guys & gals, but could we address it based on the Bible? I know it's demeaning and disgusting to argue anything upon that basis, but I just wanted to turn their own material against them. And not just with witty one-liner quotes taken out of context. What are some of the integral "core values" that pertain to this subject?


That's conservatism for ya. If you want something to appear legit and authoritative, reinterpret the past and put words into the mouths of your heroes. Make it appear that you are only preserving or returning to the old ways, instead of just pulling something slick and slimy outta your arse!

Here's another take: It's kinda like how religionists are quick to call it a "miracle" anytime something good happens. They want their religion to get the credit. America is such a prosperous nation because--why else--it must've been based on Biblical teachings. We must be doing something right according to the Bible, or else God woulda done smitten us all by now.

OK, lemme see if I got this right:
Your thesis, in essence, is that the Bible itself contradicts the assertion that this is a "Christian" nation, right?
Alright. I'm not such a scholar that I can recite chapter and verse, but it seems to me that the Bible makes a big deal about insisting upon the primacy of Christianity, beginning with the First Commandment:
"I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Obviously, this conflicts with Amendment 1:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

It's the Bible's "I am the only god" versus the Constitution's "I don't recognize god".
First Commandment or First Amendment? They seem mutually exclusive.

(Is that better than my usual cheap one-liners?)

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by TexasBEAST
All the jokes are great, guys & gals, but could we address it based on the Bible?
What the heck for? We are talking about the founding of this country, so the most relevant document would seem to be the U.S. Constitution, not the Bible. The only mention of God or religion in the constitution (including amendments) is that religion and government should not mix.

[NullPointerException]

The people that say this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values reference the Pilgrims when asked. To which I point out that this country wasn't founded until the war of independence. Before than it was just a system of colonies. If they want to be technical this country was founded on enlightenment/secular values.