"He seemed so normal"

[Some Friggin Guy]

It always blew my mind when people would make that comment about serial killers and cult leaders. I always thought "Sure, they seemed normal if shaving your head and changing your name to 'Do' is considered normal."

Well, I will no longer think that way after reading this (http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/1492153/detail.html). The article is old, as is the story behind it. I just found out about it tonight. A brief synopsis from the article:

"Jacques Robideaux calmly advised [sect members] to ignore the physical, he told other members of this cult to ignore [his son] Samuel's pain, ignore the fact that he was dying. That he was starving to death," state prosecutor David Frank told a judge last year during Robideaux's arraignment for the murder.

Robideaux is charged with first-degree murder in the death of his 10-month-old son Samuel, whose tiny body was found buried in a casket in the woods of Maine, along with another sect baby's remains. That child was said to have been stillborn.

Robideaux was the leader of the cult they are talking about.

I went to high school with Jaques Robideaux. We weren't friends, but we were in the same home-room and had a few classes together each semester. He was popular and most of the girls liked him. In our senior year, he was one of the first stringers on the football team and was good friends with Chris Sullivan, currently of the New England Patriots.

Probably what I fiind the most confusing is the fact that in high school, I was very religious, and he wasn't. Now, obviously, the opposite is true.

I suppose this post is more venting of my confusion about this than anything else, but I welcome any discussion or comments people might have.

[RCNelson]

I am fascinated by the phenomena of cults, but it's not the cult leaders that are hard to figure out - it's the cult followers that are inscrutable.

Cult Leader: Hi! My name is Do (http://www.rickross.com/groups/heavensgate.html), and I've just been castrated, and now I'm going to kill myself and go for a ride on a spaceship.

Cult Follower: Gee, that sounds like fun! Can I go too?

Cult Leader: Sure! But you'll have to kill yourself first.

Cult Follower: OK.

[Agammamon]

How do you think the Home Shopping Network stays in business? As Scott Adams say - for every person who joins a cult, there are five others who barely resist.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Charles Manson's success in recruiting came about because he did not attempt to draw in anyone from the mainstream. He went after losers, misfits, people who felt they did not belong anywhere. There is a huge pool of people to draw from in those catagories. Ask 100 people if they want to start a new society and odds are at least one will go along with the plan, no matter how wacky.

Do's cult, Mormon's, Sun Moon, etc.

[UndercoverElephant]

Slightly off topic, but this weeks New Scientist carries a very similar article about suicide bombers. There is a tendency to believe suicide bombers are not normal people - that they come from cultures that are beyond hope, that they are mentally unstable, that they have no education, that they are extremely religious to the point of total brainwashing etc..... Studies show this is not true, and that most of the suicide bombers are well educated, not particularly poor, not particularly religious and definately not mad or otherwise suicidal. In other words almost anybody could become a suicide bomber. Probably almost anybody could become a cult member too.

[Marc]

Just about anyone can be conned into a cult. It is a matter of how and when to approach. They don't start you on the first day saying "hey, we are going to poison ourselves so we can hop on a spaceship". Instead you can approach a normally intelligent person who is having a rough time and offer to give them help. A helping hand to build trust and friendship. Find the right buttons to press then slowly bring them in.

[Denise]

I saw the story on one of those news shows last night. Very disturbing. The mother got off with a slap to the wrist, which I found disturbing. She was saying that she had no where to go to get help and I am thinking "What about the family members you have that left the cult, maybe go there? Geez!"

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Marc
Just about anyone can be conned into a cult. It is a matter of how and when to approach. Na-na-na-na na-na-na-na LEADER! Na-na-na-na na-na-na-na LEADER!

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Denise
I saw the story on one of those news shows last night. Very disturbing. The mother got off with a slap to the wrist, which I found disturbing. She was saying that she had no where to go to get help and I am thinking "What about the family members you have that left the cult, maybe go there? Geez!"

The interviewer really blew it in one regard (and the prosecution could have scored this, too). He asked, "Why didn't you leave?" and she says, "Where could I have gone?"

The question that _should_ have been asked was, "Did you ever consider leaving? Did you want to leave?"

I'm guessing that, if she were really honest, the answer would be no. She believed in that crap, and was fully supportive of the actions they took.

If the prosecution raised the question, they could have left it for the jury to think about. The only thing the defense could have done in response would have been to put her on the stand, in which case the DA could have gone after her.

How the jury could not find "Involuntary Manslaughter" is a mystery to me. They said their hangup was on the word "intent." I don't know what intent has to do with involuntary manslaughter. I thought that was the whole point of calling it "involuntary"? They didn't mean to kill the victim, but reckless actions caused the death? Sounds exactly like this case.

[Bikewer]

It's a normal tactic for the Mormons as well. The door-to-door visits by the "elders" on their little bikes result in very few conversions.

It's the neighbors that are the source of most conversions; the church members present themselves as good neighbors, caring parents, good citizens, etc., and only gradually introduce their faith.

[Denise]

Originally posted by pgwenthold




How the jury could not find "Involuntary Manslaughter" is a mystery to me. They said their hangup was on the word "intent." I don't know what intent has to do with involuntary manslaughter. I thought that was the whole point of calling it "involuntary"? They didn't mean to kill the victim, but reckless actions caused the death? Sounds exactly like this case.

Yes, I agree. At the very least she was guilty of involuntary manslaughter. I think she was convicted of assault or something like that. Well, she had almost a year after her husband's trial to groom herself into the victim role and the jury bought it.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
Probably what I fiind the most confusing is the fact that in high school, I was very religious, and he wasn't. Now, obviously, the opposite is true.

What is strange to consider is - you may have had an affect on him beyond your knowledge. He may have been spurred to spirituality by your high school spirituality.

[Phil]

A bit off topic, but last night the local news here in Houston ran a story about one of Manson's followers who, at one time, tried to break Manson out of jail, and served 7 years for it. While serving his sentence, he found Jesus, don't ya know, and now is being applauded for spreading the Gospel to inmates around the country.

Now I know the Manson family and the Christian church aren't exactly the same animal, but I couldn't help thinking as I watched the story that perhaps some people have a built-in need to be in a cult setting.

Seems like we had a thread concerning the psychology of cult members at one time, but I can't be sure. Be an interesting topic for another thread.

Sorry for the hijack.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by triadboy


What is strange to consider is - you may have had an affect on him beyond your knowledge. He may have been spurred to spirituality by your high school spirituality.

Great. now, not only do I have this strange, surreal feeling about the situation, I get to have potential guilt, too.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Originally posted by JustGeoff
Slightly off topic, but this weeks New Scientist carries a very similar article about suicide bombers. There is a tendency to believe suicide bombers are not normal people - that they come from cultures that are beyond hope, that they are mentally unstable, that they have no education, that they are extremely religious to the point of total brainwashing etc..... Studies show this is not true, and that most of the suicide bombers are well educated, not particularly poor, not particularly religious and definately not mad or otherwise suicidal. In other words almost anybody could become a suicide bomber. Probably almost anybody could become a cult member too.

In spite of background, education, etc, it is the belief that nothing will work...nothing will change....in large part to the people and culture that surround them, outside influences they are powerless to affect, that suicide bombers believe will change if they blow up a shopping market or office building. There IS a feeling of hopelessness. The phrase "you can't fight City Hall" could be applied here. The culture is all are to some degree happy and content with the way things are, lazy, jaded, corrupt or uneducated to affect the change on their own, and there are those that feel since they can't rally millions to march on City Hall in support of their crazy cause, then they will use one to make a big noise in another way.

[c4ts]

The whole thing with Robideaux's cult turned crazy when they started believing all institutions except theirs were creations of the devil. Glasses are evil, take them off! You don't need them to see. Now you're not allowed to ride the car because you can't see. Society is evil, let's run off to a state park and not take baths for a year. That will show them! Our country's laws are evil, let's break them so the taxpayers will suffer! Medicine is evil, it promotes our health! Food is evil, we don't need it to survive because we live in biblical times! God made this world so we could ignore it and sit on our asses all day long waiting for a miracle! Hoo haw ding dawg fo the Jeezis halelooyah!

The fundies are always saying the devil is supposed to be a liar. Look at all the things Robideaux was saying. God says you don't need glasses to see. Take your glassess off, and you can't see. God says the world will end in 2000. The world does not end. God says not to feed the baby anything but breast milk and he dies of starvation. Each time God doesn't do what he says, each time the same "he's testing your faith" excuse comes up so you keep believing him. That way nobody can question Robideaux, because he says the divinest authority in the universe is behind him. There's no way out of his cult except hell, there's no taking the baby away to get help when he's dying of starvation. Congradulations, you've just committed murder. The fundie devil isn't in hiding in secularism or evolutionary theory or anything else they say he is, he's in Robideaux, and others like him. The fundie devil is on the loose, telling everybody that the whole world is against them, keeping people ignorant and isolated, telling them exactly what to think, praising gullibility towards himself and nobody else, until he can make people suffer while they sit their praying to him, threating divine punishment to all who are beyond his grasp. Jack Chick's faceless God is nothing but a devil on the throne with a nylon pulled over his head.

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy


Great. now, not only do I have this strange, surreal feeling about the situation, I get to have potential guilt, too.


I hope this was a joke. You have absolutely no reason to feel guilty.

I saw the show as well. It seemed that he was led into the cult by his father. They didn't go into it, but I would wonder about that relationship and perhaps the son's need for the father's approval. This cult, as presented on the show at least, appeared to have a real "folie a deux (but about three dozen)" And to be able to watch a child starve to death for over 50 days ...well...I won't even begin to label it, other than to say SFG, you had no role in this. None.

[Denise]

Some Friggin Guy, I went to highschool with a guy who turned into a gay serial killer. His name was Jay Johnson and he's from Minnesota. You can google it for the details. Was a real popular person. Blew me away. Later I worked with a guy who seemed somewhat normal. Later (I was working in another department by then) he went to his sister's house and blugeoned her to death with a hammer.

It does change your life knowing that you were aquaintances with someone capable of murder. I realize that no one really knows people. I hear people say "Oh Tom (or Dick or Harry) would never hurt a fly. It's hard to realize that no one ever really knows what another is capable of.

[pumpit6]

Anybody with a certain level of capability has the ability to comit violent acts it just takes motive or enough mental trauma.

[bignickel]

J. Backderf, 'derf', who writes the cartoon "The City", hung around with Jeffrey Dahmer loosely back in high school.

He did a comic book about what he recollects about old Jeffrey, "My Friend Dahmer". It was particularly creepy. When Jeff would get in his and his friends car to go somewhere, he would take out a sixpack and work his way thru can by can. Not to get drunk; to get numb.

Another notable is when derf and Jeff go fishing, and Jeff catches a fish too small. Instead of throwing it back, Jeff takes out his knife and slices it to ribbons. derf angrily asks him why he did it; Jeff replies that he just felt like it.

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/arnold/article/0,9565,230442,00.html

[TAILGUNNER]

CULT LEADER

an individual inbalanced enough to have to create a direction because of a lack of real one in their own lives

usually non religious to start out with as such the introduction of religions into their plan always take the shape of the extreme's of beliefs based upon their assumed knowledge that core religions do not cater to them in the specific

cult followers

groups that assign themselves as pack elements and not individuals with their own free will, a desperate need to be controlled usually due to repressed upbringings and reliance on others to fuction at a basic level in life

that you knew of this man before he became what he became allows you to gauge the background slightly better than most, popular can be reasoned as a need for attention or minimum a desire to be see recieving it, a lack of a belief system that was obvious speaks of a lack of direction the two hand in hand usually spell trouble the sad fact that there are others who would later see him as something he wasnt is no real suprise when you understand the basics of human beings social abilities

[Kopji]

There was an incident back in the 80's that came to be known as the Kirtland Killings. Crimelibrary has a nice version of the story online: Lundgren (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/lundgren/index_1.html?sect=8)

The father, Dennis Avery, attended our congregation 'way back when' and we knew his parents very well. The Averys were very kind, simple, trusting, religious people.

Anyway, the weird thing is when this happened it did not have much impact on me at all. No self introspection about being so close to something so awful. These things always happen to someone else, and those people are a small minority and do not represent the vast majority... etc.

Some of the ex-lds people who read the story will certainly understand the cult's 'attraction', it has a uniquely 'Mormon' flavor. (They can relax, this one was fostered by ex-rlds people, not lds).

(edited - sorry, back in the 80's, my how time flies)

[Professor Frink]

I think there are some misconceptions about cult followers here.

All that has to happen for someone to become a cult follower is for the leader to convince them that he/she is a [god|leader|prophet|whatever]. That's a big "all you have to do" but it is a simple fact. Once you have the person believing that, and most won't but some will, then you've got them. Compare/contrast to most Christians who, once they believe the bible is the breathed Word of God, will simply then accept anything it says without question. They will also do so for their church leaders. I bet a million people have asked a pastor or priest "what does the church believe about ______" and then adopted that answer as their own personal belief from that time forward. (someone once said, allow me to misquote them slightly, "if you have one person who screams at the heavens, you have a madman. If you have 50 people who scream at heaven, you have a cult. If you have 10,000 people who scream at heaven, that's a religion).

Also, keep in mind that there are many kinds of "cults" in the world - there are cults of people who sell books door to door, there are weight-loss cults, there are all kinds of groups that use cult tactics to draw people in, convince them to change their lives, drive them with forceful speeches and motivation, and then control them using the same tactics that religious cults do.

I had a friend in college who sold books door to door one summer. Worked about 80 hours a week, and was subject to constant motivational speeches. When the group selling the books rolled into town the following spring, my friend was crying and shaking because she was so afraid that if she met with them for 5 minutes, they would easily be able to talk her into joining up again, no matter how much she knew (intellectually) that she would be joining up with what was effectively a sales cult. The tactics they used were no different from cult tactics, they were just used for a different purpose.