A personal dillema (quite long)

[Enceladan]

As this is my first post to the forum, I’ll take a moment to explain my situation. I’m 28, almost 29, working a fairly typical eight hour work day in an office at the state capitol complex. That bit of information isn’t entirely relevant for what follows, but is included because hey, first post, and I wanted to share! I didn’t really intend to write a novel, but it looks like that very well may have happened.

(tl;dr preface, this ultimately results in me asking for advice on how to have the “I’m leaving the religion/church talk” when a family member/members are the leaders of said church. Since this is such a long post, I've put most of it under a spoiler tab so it can be quickly passed over to my actual questions if needed)

When I stop to think about my earliest memories, they involve being in an independent Baptist church. We’re talking fundamentalist, believing in literal biblical interpretation and all that other enjoyable stuff. This was basically the life I was born into, as my parents were churchgoers and that choice was made for me. At the same time, they were, and are, remarkably relaxed when it comes to a lot of the more strict tenets that the faith would otherwise expect. My dad is a sci-fi nut, and also enjoys reading and studying about astronomy, so I was never actively shielded from differing views, or told (by my parents) that they were wrong and I should avoid them. Naturally there was always the belief that evolution was untrue and that the world was created in six days (and on the seventh God rested,) but there wasn’t an active effort on their part to counter anything else that I might’ve learned outside of Sunday school.

I believed, as much as a kid who was born into a religion could. Looking back, it’s actually pretty harsh on a kid to be told that they were born terrible, that no amount of good behavior can change that, and that because they were born bad, a very, very nice man a long time ago had to die. Combined with all the stories of great heroes, magical occurrences, and that very nice man who loved us so very much, of course a kid is going to buy into it. And, lacking both differing views on the subject matter and the necessary maturity to weigh them and reach an informed decision (that’s not to say it’s impossible for a kid to do that, simply that it wasn’t for me at the time,) I latched on and didn’t let go.

So did my sister, which is where my dilemma begins. As I got older, I took more after my dad, and acquired a fascination with science, technology, and good ol’ stories involving both. When I started encountering concepts like the big bang and the theory of evolution, I felt challenged, but also the encouragement from both the family and the church to hold to my beliefs. I feel like I did, for the most part, even though the facts were clearly staring into my eyes at the time. My sister, a couple of years older than I am, endured the same, but I don’t think she ever felt challenged by it at all. At some point in high school, something “clicked” (for lack of a better term) for her in regard to her faith, and she decided to truly make it the focus of her life. She attended a bible college after graduating high school, where she met a fellow who was studying to be a pastor. They married, and after graduating college they found a local church and he became their pastor. After some internal issues at the church that I and my parents had been attending became a bit too much for the conscience to deal with (funny how churches suffer that) we left and began attending the church my brother-in-law preached at instead. They built a house on the lot next door to us (I still live at home) so there’s very little in the way of distance. In a family sense, I’m sure many might consider this to be good.

The problem it presents to me is that my sister came back from college as if she had a mandate from God to ensure that the religion finds its way into every aspect of life, and extends to the family itself. And because there’s no distance at all between us, she knows everything that happens. Not at church? Expect to be asked why. Dislike having to do something? Expect to be asked whether it was the equivalent of “your cross to bear.” Overbearing stuff like that.

So anyway, let’s jump to about four years ago, which is when I started to actually question things regarding faith and religion. While I’m trying not to inject politics into this, it was actually something politically-related that made me say, “But that makes NO SENSE!” It was how, when facts were put plain as day in front of them, my sister and brother-in-law were refusing to believe that Barack Obama was neither a citizen of the United States, nor anything but a Muslim. And because of this, anything he said or did was evil. IT MADE NO SENSE. I wasn’t going to argue for or against the president’s political leanings and whether they were evil or not, but the fact that they were letting something else entirely form that unwavering opinion about made my head explode (and still does, for that matter.)

I think that’s what led me to actually start looking at and appreciating facts. Before then, I remember I used to enjoy reading Dr. Phil Plait’s blog (again, I enjoyed and still do enjoy science and astronomy,) but would be turned off by his stance against creationism, as this was effectively a trained behavior for me at the time. But once I realized how easy it was to toss up that wall of dissonance between facts that were readily available, and beliefs held in defiance of reason, and that I had been doing that the entire time as well, I found I was able to begin looking at differing views without that trained defiance kicking in.

I guess you could say that Dr. Plait “converted” me (and say that with no small amount of humor and irony!), and as a result that led me to visit the JREF site more and more, free of that dissonance and able to fully appreciate the need for critical thinking and fair evaluation of facts.

Naturally, this would eventually create problems at home. Especially since after a while, it effectively amounted to me saying, “Despite declarations and appeals to the contrary, the Bible has issues. It shouldn’t, according to those appeals. But it does, which means everything involving it is suspect.” A little while later, I added, “I don’t understand how any of this, especially God Himself, can be justifiable.” That bit came from me deciding how silly the idea was that God, who wanted to provide the means of salvation to all mankind, gave the only viable message to a group of genocidal xenophobes in a desert, who lacked a viable means of spreading that message even IF they felt at all inclined to do so. And as a result, people everywhere else in the world were being sent to hell.

The above happened over the course of about two years. The end result was, my faith had been left ravaged, and the only sensible choice was its abolition. Probably the first real informed decision that I’d ever made in my life. And it’s oh so liberating to know that anything I say, do, or feel isn’t bound by that knowledge that somewhere, God was watching and knew what was happening, and at some point I would be called to account for my imperfections.

This did not, however, result in me embarking on a drug-fueled binge of sex, partying, more sex, bad decisions, and did I mention sex? In fact, you’d probably not know much of a difference just by looking at me. I’m still the quiet, almost excessively introverted person who doesn’t like causing a stir or creating conflict when it can be avoided (and will actively attempt to avoid doing so, just because the hassle isn’t worth it.)

And so we’ve arrived at the heart of my issue: in avoiding the hassle for so long, I’ve effectively backed myself into a corner. After I made the decision to let go of faith entirely, the idea of disappointing my family (and the hassle of having to deal with that) effectively imprisoned me into continuing to go to church. In the course of these last two years, however, I met a girl, managed to pretty much fall completely ass over head for her, despite the fact that she lives a good distance away. I include this information only to form the context for what resulted in some things coming into the open. Up until then, I didn’t think anyone in the family had an idea that something (for how they would view it) was terribly, terribly wrong in my mind. Not confident in my ability to hide that, however, I promised myself that if I ever was asked, I would answer truthfully.

I was preparing to go and visit the aforementioned girl one evening, and my sister started talking to me about some unrelated things (she entered the psychology field after college – I’m sure there’s no small amount of irony in that – and I know one of the “tricks” is to just get someone talking, and go from there) before she finally hit me with the hammer. In response to me saying I was relatively unhappy about a few things: “How are you thinking about this in terms of what God wants for your life?”

In an astonishingly powerful amount of courage, will, and strength that I didn’t know I possessed at that point, I looked her in the eye and said, “I’m not. There isn’t a God in anything at all.” Could’ve heard a mouse fart in the silence.

She then went on the attack, questioning me on all the things like how did I think we were created, what I thought was the purpose for life, things of that nature. I couldn’t defend myself that well against it. I wasn’t ready for it, I didn’t have enough of a personal base of information to draw upon to defend myself, and I fear I didn’t acquit myself quite as well as I would’ve hoped.

When I came back a few days later from my trip (which as FANTASTIC) the issue wasn’t brought up. But I could see the looks of pity from her, and the others in the family. That look that said “You poor thing, you’re going in such a bad direction and you’re going to suffer for it.”

To say that I was paralyzed into inaction would be an understatement. I continued going to church, because I couldn’t handle those disapproving looks. Up until about eight months ago.

I don’t know what changed, but I couldn’t handle it anymore. I think it was the constant bashing of issues like gay marriage, abortion, the evils of the Democrats, the fearmongering about how all these evils in the world were clearly the work of Satan. It finally hit a point where I was getting angry and offended by how easily the venomous rhetoric was being thrown to the congregation, and how happily it was being devoured, week after week. So I began to make excuses to not attend church. I was the guy who ran the sound system for the services, which I think was another reason why I was reluctant to leave, as my work ethic in that regard was to not abandon a job like that. But I couldn’t do it anymore. After a couple of weeks of this, my dad (who also worked some of the equipment each week) asked me if I would start attending again, if he took over those duties for me.

Once again, an instance where I was finally asked straight, and I had promised not to lie. “No. I don’t believe in any of this anymore, and I can’t continue going and pretending everything is all right, when I know it’s not. And I know that I’m only still going because I’m expected to do so. And I can’t do that anymore.”

My dad told me afterward that he knew that was coming, and that he and my mom had been waiting a while for me to admit that. The only disappointment they had in the matter was that I had put so much stock in not wanting to upset them, and assuming that they would think less of me for attempting to discern things for myself.

In other words, they’re cool with it. And I think that led me to begin assessing where I stood with my own ethics and standards of what I consider right and wrong, free of biblical requirements (though to say they aren’t influenced by it would be a lie. But, saying something was influenced by concept, and saying it’s dependent upon it aren’t the same.)

I attended the services for a few more weeks, in order to help teach someone to take over my work with the sound equipment, with the knowledge that at the end of the year, I was gone. This began in October, and I stopped attending entirely when I came home after New Year’s, having gone to once again visit the aforementioned girl.

I thought that would be the end of it, but it’s not. Apparently people at the church have noted my absence, and I’ve been receiving cards asking me to come back. I’ve stopped opening them. I hate being that way, and I know the intent of the cards isn’t to guilt me into returning, but that’s what they’ll effectively try to do, which’ll result in me reacting with hostility. I don’t want to do that.

I’m getting the pitying looks again at the dinner table.

And now this past Saturday evening, my brother-in-law asked why I stopped going, and applied some guilt about me not being there for Easter. My conflict avoidance instinct led me to say “I’ll talk to you about it, but not tonight. I need to think about how to answer this.”

I know this issue will never truly be resolved. I know that no matter how this goes, the matter won’t be left alone, but I also feel like this is the time to put EVERYTHING on the table, and if that means burning a bridge or three, do it now rather than try to put it off. But, I also know that I need to live with these people for at least another year or so, and I kind of want to just try and let it go if I can. I’m not sure that’s going to continue to be an option.

So I guess the reason I’m bringing this here is that I don’t know how to approach this. I’m going to be going against someone who is effectively an expert on the bible, apologetics, and everything else that goes along with it. At least, he’s an expert in that he’s been making this sort of thing his life, and will have ready arguments, counterpoints, and God on his side for all the handwaving defense needed if all else fails.

I suppose I’ll ask if anyone has any suggestions for some quick reads (I don’t feel I have the luxury of reading a lot of books before I get cornered on this again), blogs, articles, etc., on some of the concepts like refuting biblical inerrancy, countering points on evolution that creationists constantly get wrong, and anything else that might be thought as relevant. I don’t have an issue with quoting things I’ve heard and read (because I *know* I’m going to have the bible quoted at me as if it were artillery), but I also want to at least try and better understand some things that I might use.

So, with that also in mind, this is more a personal question that I'll ask everyone her (that I won’t mind having answered if others want to weigh in.) Am I wrong for feeling that I should at least make some effort to draw my line? And am I wrong for, at the same time, not wanting to fight that battle because I know that any question or point I can’t effectively counter is going to be thought of as a “point” against me and my stance on the matter? I’m aware that ultimately it won’t matter who “wins,” because I’m long past the point of anything from the bible swaying me, and I'm quite sure I won't put a dent in his armor either.

Anyway, I think I’ll conclude my post here. I know I was probably a little too general and vague about some things. I’m willing to elaborate if desired later on, especially if knowing something specific might help give a little bit of direction on how I can better handle this.

[ExMinister]

I did read your entire post.

First, I think it takes a lot of courage to do what you've done in this situation.

I recommend Godless by Dan Barker. http://www.amazon.com/Godless-Evangelical-Preacher-Americas-Atheists/dp/1569756775/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334000393&sr=8-1

John Loftus also writes books that might be helpful, similar to Dan Barker's. http://www.amazon.com/Why-Became-Atheist-Preacher-Christianity/dp/1591025923/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334000444&sr=1-1

ETA: Welcome to the forum!

[Brainache]

I guess the bottom line is: If you don't believe, you don't believe. No amount of Bible verses is going to change that. They can't force you to believe something, they can only force you to pretend. Do they want you to pretend?

[tsig]

As this is my first post to the forum, I’ll take a moment to explain my situation. I’m 28, almost 29, working a fairly typical eight hour work day in an office at the state capitol complex. That bit of information isn’t entirely relevant for what follows, but is included because hey, first post, and I wanted to share! I didn’t really intend to write a novel, but it looks like that very well may have happened.

(tl;dr preface, this ultimately results in me asking for advice on how to have the “I’m leaving the religion/church talk” when a family member/members are the leaders of said church. Since this is such a long post, I've put most of it under a spoiler tab so it can be quickly passed over to my actual questions if needed)

When I stop to think about my earliest memories, they involve being in an independent Baptist church. We’re talking fundamentalist, believing in literal biblical interpretation and all that other enjoyable stuff. This was basically the life I was born into, as my parents were churchgoers and that choice was made for me. At the same time, they were, and are, remarkably relaxed when it comes to a lot of the more strict tenets that the faith would otherwise expect. My dad is a sci-fi nut, and also enjoys reading and studying about astronomy, so I was never actively shielded from differing views, or told (by my parents) that they were wrong and I should avoid them. Naturally there was always the belief that evolution was untrue and that the world was created in six days (and on the seventh God rested,) but there wasn’t an active effort on their part to counter anything else that I might’ve learned outside of Sunday school.

I believed, as much as a kid who was born into a religion could. Looking back, it’s actually pretty harsh on a kid to be told that they were born terrible, that no amount of good behavior can change that, and that because they were born bad, a very, very nice man a long time ago had to die. Combined with all the stories of great heroes, magical occurrences, and that very nice man who loved us so very much, of course a kid is going to buy into it. And, lacking both differing views on the subject matter and the necessary maturity to weigh them and reach an informed decision (that’s not to say it’s impossible for a kid to do that, simply that it wasn’t for me at the time,) I latched on and didn’t let go.

So did my sister, which is where my dilemma begins. As I got older, I took more after my dad, and acquired a fascination with science, technology, and good ol’ stories involving both. When I started encountering concepts like the big bang and the theory of evolution, I felt challenged, but also the encouragement from both the family and the church to hold to my beliefs. I feel like I did, for the most part, even though the facts were clearly staring into my eyes at the time. My sister, a couple of years older than I am, endured the same, but I don’t think she ever felt challenged by it at all. At some point in high school, something “clicked” (for lack of a better term) for her in regard to her faith, and she decided to truly make it the focus of her life. She attended a bible college after graduating high school, where she met a fellow who was studying to be a pastor. They married, and after graduating college they found a local church and he became their pastor. After some internal issues at the church that I and my parents had been attending became a bit too much for the conscience to deal with (funny how churches suffer that) we left and began attending the church my brother-in-law preached at instead. They built a house on the lot next door to us (I still live at home) so there’s very little in the way of distance. In a family sense, I’m sure many might consider this to be good.

The problem it presents to me is that my sister came back from college as if she had a mandate from God to ensure that the religion finds its way into every aspect of life, and extends to the family itself. And because there’s no distance at all between us, she knows everything that happens. Not at church? Expect to be asked why. Dislike having to do something? Expect to be asked whether it was the equivalent of “your cross to bear.” Overbearing stuff like that.

So anyway, let’s jump to about four years ago, which is when I started to actually question things regarding faith and religion. While I’m trying not to inject politics into this, it was actually something politically-related that made me say, “But that makes NO SENSE!” It was how, when facts were put plain as day in front of them, my sister and brother-in-law were refusing to believe that Barack Obama was neither a citizen of the United States, nor anything but a Muslim. And because of this, anything he said or did was evil. IT MADE NO SENSE. I wasn’t going to argue for or against the president’s political leanings and whether they were evil or not, but the fact that they were letting something else entirely form that unwavering opinion about made my head explode (and still does, for that matter.)

I think that’s what led me to actually start looking at and appreciating facts. Before then, I remember I used to enjoy reading Dr. Phil Plait’s blog (again, I enjoyed and still do enjoy science and astronomy,) but would be turned off by his stance against creationism, as this was effectively a trained behavior for me at the time. But once I realized how easy it was to toss up that wall of dissonance between facts that were readily available, and beliefs held in defiance of reason, and that I had been doing that the entire time as well, I found I was able to begin looking at differing views without that trained defiance kicking in.

I guess you could say that Dr. Plait “converted” me (and say that with no small amount of humor and irony!), and as a result that led me to visit the JREF site more and more, free of that dissonance and able to fully appreciate the need for critical thinking and fair evaluation of facts.

Naturally, this would eventually create problems at home. Especially since after a while, it effectively amounted to me saying, “Despite declarations and appeals to the contrary, the Bible has issues. It shouldn’t, according to those appeals. But it does, which means everything involving it is suspect.” A little while later, I added, “I don’t understand how any of this, especially God Himself, can be justifiable.” That bit came from me deciding how silly the idea was that God, who wanted to provide the means of salvation to all mankind, gave the only viable message to a group of genocidal xenophobes in a desert, who lacked a viable means of spreading that message even IF they felt at all inclined to do so. And as a result, people everywhere else in the world were being sent to hell.

The above happened over the course of about two years. The end result was, my faith had been left ravaged, and the only sensible choice was its abolition. Probably the first real informed decision that I’d ever made in my life. And it’s oh so liberating to know that anything I say, do, or feel isn’t bound by that knowledge that somewhere, God was watching and knew what was happening, and at some point I would be called to account for my imperfections.

This did not, however, result in me embarking on a drug-fueled binge of sex, partying, more sex, bad decisions, and did I mention sex? In fact, you’d probably not know much of a difference just by looking at me. I’m still the quiet, almost excessively introverted person who doesn’t like causing a stir or creating conflict when it can be avoided (and will actively attempt to avoid doing so, just because the hassle isn’t worth it.)

And so we’ve arrived at the heart of my issue: in avoiding the hassle for so long, I’ve effectively backed myself into a corner. After I made the decision to let go of faith entirely, the idea of disappointing my family (and the hassle of having to deal with that) effectively imprisoned me into continuing to go to church. In the course of these last two years, however, I met a girl, managed to pretty much fall completely ass over head for her, despite the fact that she lives a good distance away. I include this information only to form the context for what resulted in some things coming into the open. Up until then, I didn’t think anyone in the family had an idea that something (for how they would view it) was terribly, terribly wrong in my mind. Not confident in my ability to hide that, however, I promised myself that if I ever was asked, I would answer truthfully.

I was preparing to go and visit the aforementioned girl one evening, and my sister started talking to me about some unrelated things (she entered the psychology field after college – I’m sure there’s no small amount of irony in that – and I know one of the “tricks” is to just get someone talking, and go from there) before she finally hit me with the hammer. In response to me saying I was relatively unhappy about a few things: “How are you thinking about this in terms of what God wants for your life?”

In an astonishingly powerful amount of courage, will, and strength that I didn’t know I possessed at that point, I looked her in the eye and said, “I’m not. There isn’t a God in anything at all.” Could’ve heard a mouse fart in the silence.

She then went on the attack, questioning me on all the things like how did I think we were created, what I thought was the purpose for life, things of that nature. I couldn’t defend myself that well against it. I wasn’t ready for it, I didn’t have enough of a personal base of information to draw upon to defend myself, and I fear I didn’t acquit myself quite as well as I would’ve hoped.

When I came back a few days later from my trip (which as FANTASTIC) the issue wasn’t brought up. But I could see the looks of pity from her, and the others in the family. That look that said “You poor thing, you’re going in such a bad direction and you’re going to suffer for it.”

To say that I was paralyzed into inaction would be an understatement. I continued going to church, because I couldn’t handle those disapproving looks. Up until about eight months ago.

I don’t know what changed, but I couldn’t handle it anymore. I think it was the constant bashing of issues like gay marriage, abortion, the evils of the Democrats, the fearmongering about how all these evils in the world were clearly the work of Satan. It finally hit a point where I was getting angry and offended by how easily the venomous rhetoric was being thrown to the congregation, and how happily it was being devoured, week after week. So I began to make excuses to not attend church. I was the guy who ran the sound system for the services, which I think was another reason why I was reluctant to leave, as my work ethic in that regard was to not abandon a job like that. But I couldn’t do it anymore. After a couple of weeks of this, my dad (who also worked some of the equipment each week) asked me if I would start attending again, if he took over those duties for me.

Once again, an instance where I was finally asked straight, and I had promised not to lie. “No. I don’t believe in any of this anymore, and I can’t continue going and pretending everything is all right, when I know it’s not. And I know that I’m only still going because I’m expected to do so. And I can’t do that anymore.”

My dad told me afterward that he knew that was coming, and that he and my mom had been waiting a while for me to admit that. The only disappointment they had in the matter was that I had put so much stock in not wanting to upset them, and assuming that they would think less of me for attempting to discern things for myself.

In other words, they’re cool with it. And I think that led me to begin assessing where I stood with my own ethics and standards of what I consider right and wrong, free of biblical requirements (though to say they aren’t influenced by it would be a lie. But, saying something was influenced by concept, and saying it’s dependent upon it aren’t the same.)

I attended the services for a few more weeks, in order to help teach someone to take over my work with the sound equipment, with the knowledge that at the end of the year, I was gone. This began in October, and I stopped attending entirely when I came home after New Year’s, having gone to once again visit the aforementioned girl.

I thought that would be the end of it, but it’s not. Apparently people at the church have noted my absence, and I’ve been receiving cards asking me to come back. I’ve stopped opening them. I hate being that way, and I know the intent of the cards isn’t to guilt me into returning, but that’s what they’ll effectively try to do, which’ll result in me reacting with hostility. I don’t want to do that.

I’m getting the pitying looks again at the dinner table.

And now this past Saturday evening, my brother-in-law asked why I stopped going, and applied some guilt about me not being there for Easter. My conflict avoidance instinct led me to say “I’ll talk to you about it, but not tonight. I need to think about how to answer this.”

I know this issue will never truly be resolved. I know that no matter how this goes, the matter won’t be left alone, but I also feel like this is the time to put EVERYTHING on the table, and if that means burning a bridge or three, do it now rather than try to put it off. But, I also know that I need to live with these people for at least another year or so, and I kind of want to just try and let it go if I can. I’m not sure that’s going to continue to be an option.

So I guess the reason I’m bringing this here is that I don’t know how to approach this. I’m going to be going against someone who is effectively an expert on the bible, apologetics, and everything else that goes along with it. At least, he’s an expert in that he’s been making this sort of thing his life, and will have ready arguments, counterpoints, and God on his side for all the handwaving defense needed if all else fails.

I suppose I’ll ask if anyone has any suggestions for some quick reads (I don’t feel I have the luxury of reading a lot of books before I get cornered on this again), blogs, articles, etc., on some of the concepts like refuting biblical inerrancy, countering points on evolution that creationists constantly get wrong, and anything else that might be thought as relevant. I don’t have an issue with quoting things I’ve heard and read (because I *know* I’m going to have the bible quoted at me as if it were artillery), but I also want to at least try and better understand some things that I might use.

So, with that also in mind, this is more a personal question that I'll ask everyone her (that I won’t mind having answered if others want to weigh in.) Am I wrong for feeling that I should at least make some effort to draw my line? And am I wrong for, at the same time, not wanting to fight that battle because I know that any question or point I can’t effectively counter is going to be thought of as a “point” against me and my stance on the matter? I’m aware that ultimately it won’t matter who “wins,” because I’m long past the point of anything from the bible swaying me, and I'm quite sure I won't put a dent in his armor either.

Anyway, I think I’ll conclude my post here. I know I was probably a little too general and vague about some things. I’m willing to elaborate if desired later on, especially if knowing something specific might help give a little bit of direction on how I can better handle this.

Welcome to JREF!

[AvalonXQ]

A very interesting post. Possibly off-topic, but I wanted to address one issue you had in there:
That bit came from me deciding how silly the idea was that God, who wanted to provide the means of salvation to all mankind, gave the only viable message to a group of genocidal xenophobes in a desert, who lacked a viable means of spreading that message even IF they felt at all inclined to do so. And as a result, people everywhere else in the world were being sent to hell.
Standard Christian eschatology for inerrantists does not hold that the Law of Moses was necessary for salvation or that all non-Jews were being sent to Hell during the Mosaic Dispensation. Instead, God would speak to members of Gentile households as well, and their relationship with God was according to family-specific Patriarchal covenants.
The Law of Moses was binding on Israel only. Not until the coming of Christ is a unified global plan established.

[The Norseman]

Hi, welcome!

I read your story too and I also commend you for this -- it will more than likely be a very difficult thing to do.

I don't have any books to recommend; my only advice is when they start quoting the bible to you, you can just shrug and say that those passages have no meaning for you any longer.

I mean, you aren't trying to convince yourself (at least, that's my reading of your situation) and at this point, it won't do any good to try and argue against your family and friends' entrenched beliefs, right?

It sounds like avoidance and it is in a way. Maybe you don't know why you feel the way you do, or arrived at the conclusion that you have arrived at and it's okay to say so. Tell them that you will be able to better express what you're going through at a later time and in the meantime, they can feel free to pray and seek answers through their god.

You could also check out websites such as the skeptics annotated bible if you want to start formulating responses to specific bible quotes. Watching some TED talks are really very good at letting you hear the rational and skeptical viewpoint about gods and theism. Michael Shermer is really good and this video series from his website will get you started. http://www.michaelshermer.com/2007/02/dinesh-shermer-debate3/

I personally like the videos better than reading the books because it more accurately reflects the real-life quotes and thought processes that you'll run into. Books are great at giving an in-depth reasoning so I'm not panning books, but if it were me, I'd watch the videos while waiting for the books, then do both concurrently.

[Resume]

As this is my first post to the forum, I’ll take a moment to explain my situation. I’m 28, almost 29, working a fairly typical eight hour work day in an office at the state capitol complex. That bit of information isn’t entirely relevant for what follows, but is included because hey, first post, and I wanted to share! I didn’t really intend to write a novel, but it looks like that very well may have happened.

(tl;dr preface, this ultimately results in me asking for advice on how to have the “I’m leaving the religion/church talk” when a family member/members are the leaders of said church. Since this is such a long post, I've put most of it under a spoiler tab so it can be quickly passed over to my actual questions if needed)

When I stop to think about my earliest memories, they involve being in an independent Baptist church. We’re talking fundamentalist, believing in literal biblical interpretation and all that other enjoyable stuff. This was basically the life I was born into, as my parents were churchgoers and that choice was made for me. At the same time, they were, and are, remarkably relaxed when it comes to a lot of the more strict tenets that the faith would otherwise expect. My dad is a sci-fi nut, and also enjoys reading and studying about astronomy, so I was never actively shielded from differing views, or told (by my parents) that they were wrong and I should avoid them. Naturally there was always the belief that evolution was untrue and that the world was created in six days (and on the seventh God rested,) but there wasn’t an active effort on their part to counter anything else that I might’ve learned outside of Sunday school.

I believed, as much as a kid who was born into a religion could. Looking back, it’s actually pretty harsh on a kid to be told that they were born terrible, that no amount of good behavior can change that, and that because they were born bad, a very, very nice man a long time ago had to die. Combined with all the stories of great heroes, magical occurrences, and that very nice man who loved us so very much, of course a kid is going to buy into it. And, lacking both differing views on the subject matter and the necessary maturity to weigh them and reach an informed decision (that’s not to say it’s impossible for a kid to do that, simply that it wasn’t for me at the time,) I latched on and didn’t let go.

So did my sister, which is where my dilemma begins. As I got older, I took more after my dad, and acquired a fascination with science, technology, and good ol’ stories involving both. When I started encountering concepts like the big bang and the theory of evolution, I felt challenged, but also the encouragement from both the family and the church to hold to my beliefs. I feel like I did, for the most part, even though the facts were clearly staring into my eyes at the time. My sister, a couple of years older than I am, endured the same, but I don’t think she ever felt challenged by it at all. At some point in high school, something “clicked” (for lack of a better term) for her in regard to her faith, and she decided to truly make it the focus of her life. She attended a bible college after graduating high school, where she met a fellow who was studying to be a pastor. They married, and after graduating college they found a local church and he became their pastor. After some internal issues at the church that I and my parents had been attending became a bit too much for the conscience to deal with (funny how churches suffer that) we left and began attending the church my brother-in-law preached at instead. They built a house on the lot next door to us (I still live at home) so there’s very little in the way of distance. In a family sense, I’m sure many might consider this to be good.

The problem it presents to me is that my sister came back from college as if she had a mandate from God to ensure that the religion finds its way into every aspect of life, and extends to the family itself. And because there’s no distance at all between us, she knows everything that happens. Not at church? Expect to be asked why. Dislike having to do something? Expect to be asked whether it was the equivalent of “your cross to bear.” Overbearing stuff like that.

So anyway, let’s jump to about four years ago, which is when I started to actually question things regarding faith and religion. While I’m trying not to inject politics into this, it was actually something politically-related that made me say, “But that makes NO SENSE!” It was how, when facts were put plain as day in front of them, my sister and brother-in-law were refusing to believe that Barack Obama was neither a citizen of the United States, nor anything but a Muslim. And because of this, anything he said or did was evil. IT MADE NO SENSE. I wasn’t going to argue for or against the president’s political leanings and whether they were evil or not, but the fact that they were letting something else entirely form that unwavering opinion about made my head explode (and still does, for that matter.)

I think that’s what led me to actually start looking at and appreciating facts. Before then, I remember I used to enjoy reading Dr. Phil Plait’s blog (again, I enjoyed and still do enjoy science and astronomy,) but would be turned off by his stance against creationism, as this was effectively a trained behavior for me at the time. But once I realized how easy it was to toss up that wall of dissonance between facts that were readily available, and beliefs held in defiance of reason, and that I had been doing that the entire time as well, I found I was able to begin looking at differing views without that trained defiance kicking in.

I guess you could say that Dr. Plait “converted” me (and say that with no small amount of humor and irony!), and as a result that led me to visit the JREF site more and more, free of that dissonance and able to fully appreciate the need for critical thinking and fair evaluation of facts.

Naturally, this would eventually create problems at home. Especially since after a while, it effectively amounted to me saying, “Despite declarations and appeals to the contrary, the Bible has issues. It shouldn’t, according to those appeals. But it does, which means everything involving it is suspect.” A little while later, I added, “I don’t understand how any of this, especially God Himself, can be justifiable.” That bit came from me deciding how silly the idea was that God, who wanted to provide the means of salvation to all mankind, gave the only viable message to a group of genocidal xenophobes in a desert, who lacked a viable means of spreading that message even IF they felt at all inclined to do so. And as a result, people everywhere else in the world were being sent to hell.

The above happened over the course of about two years. The end result was, my faith had been left ravaged, and the only sensible choice was its abolition. Probably the first real informed decision that I’d ever made in my life. And it’s oh so liberating to know that anything I say, do, or feel isn’t bound by that knowledge that somewhere, God was watching and knew what was happening, and at some point I would be called to account for my imperfections.

This did not, however, result in me embarking on a drug-fueled binge of sex, partying, more sex, bad decisions, and did I mention sex? In fact, you’d probably not know much of a difference just by looking at me. I’m still the quiet, almost excessively introverted person who doesn’t like causing a stir or creating conflict when it can be avoided (and will actively attempt to avoid doing so, just because the hassle isn’t worth it.)

And so we’ve arrived at the heart of my issue: in avoiding the hassle for so long, I’ve effectively backed myself into a corner. After I made the decision to let go of faith entirely, the idea of disappointing my family (and the hassle of having to deal with that) effectively imprisoned me into continuing to go to church. In the course of these last two years, however, I met a girl, managed to pretty much fall completely ass over head for her, despite the fact that she lives a good distance away. I include this information only to form the context for what resulted in some things coming into the open. Up until then, I didn’t think anyone in the family had an idea that something (for how they would view it) was terribly, terribly wrong in my mind. Not confident in my ability to hide that, however, I promised myself that if I ever was asked, I would answer truthfully.

I was preparing to go and visit the aforementioned girl one evening, and my sister started talking to me about some unrelated things (she entered the psychology field after college – I’m sure there’s no small amount of irony in that – and I know one of the “tricks” is to just get someone talking, and go from there) before she finally hit me with the hammer. In response to me saying I was relatively unhappy about a few things: “How are you thinking about this in terms of what God wants for your life?”

In an astonishingly powerful amount of courage, will, and strength that I didn’t know I possessed at that point, I looked her in the eye and said, “I’m not. There isn’t a God in anything at all.” Could’ve heard a mouse fart in the silence.

She then went on the attack, questioning me on all the things like how did I think we were created, what I thought was the purpose for life, things of that nature. I couldn’t defend myself that well against it. I wasn’t ready for it, I didn’t have enough of a personal base of information to draw upon to defend myself, and I fear I didn’t acquit myself quite as well as I would’ve hoped.

When I came back a few days later from my trip (which as FANTASTIC) the issue wasn’t brought up. But I could see the looks of pity from her, and the others in the family. That look that said “You poor thing, you’re going in such a bad direction and you’re going to suffer for it.”

To say that I was paralyzed into inaction would be an understatement. I continued going to church, because I couldn’t handle those disapproving looks. Up until about eight months ago.

I don’t know what changed, but I couldn’t handle it anymore. I think it was the constant bashing of issues like gay marriage, abortion, the evils of the Democrats, the fearmongering about how all these evils in the world were clearly the work of Satan. It finally hit a point where I was getting angry and offended by how easily the venomous rhetoric was being thrown to the congregation, and how happily it was being devoured, week after week. So I began to make excuses to not attend church. I was the guy who ran the sound system for the services, which I think was another reason why I was reluctant to leave, as my work ethic in that regard was to not abandon a job like that. But I couldn’t do it anymore. After a couple of weeks of this, my dad (who also worked some of the equipment each week) asked me if I would start attending again, if he took over those duties for me.

Once again, an instance where I was finally asked straight, and I had promised not to lie. “No. I don’t believe in any of this anymore, and I can’t continue going and pretending everything is all right, when I know it’s not. And I know that I’m only still going because I’m expected to do so. And I can’t do that anymore.”

My dad told me afterward that he knew that was coming, and that he and my mom had been waiting a while for me to admit that. The only disappointment they had in the matter was that I had put so much stock in not wanting to upset them, and assuming that they would think less of me for attempting to discern things for myself.

In other words, they’re cool with it. And I think that led me to begin assessing where I stood with my own ethics and standards of what I consider right and wrong, free of biblical requirements (though to say they aren’t influenced by it would be a lie. But, saying something was influenced by concept, and saying it’s dependent upon it aren’t the same.)

I attended the services for a few more weeks, in order to help teach someone to take over my work with the sound equipment, with the knowledge that at the end of the year, I was gone. This began in October, and I stopped attending entirely when I came home after New Year’s, having gone to once again visit the aforementioned girl.

I thought that would be the end of it, but it’s not. Apparently people at the church have noted my absence, and I’ve been receiving cards asking me to come back. I’ve stopped opening them. I hate being that way, and I know the intent of the cards isn’t to guilt me into returning, but that’s what they’ll effectively try to do, which’ll result in me reacting with hostility. I don’t want to do that.

I’m getting the pitying looks again at the dinner table.

And now this past Saturday evening, my brother-in-law asked why I stopped going, and applied some guilt about me not being there for Easter. My conflict avoidance instinct led me to say “I’ll talk to you about it, but not tonight. I need to think about how to answer this.”

I know this issue will never truly be resolved. I know that no matter how this goes, the matter won’t be left alone, but I also feel like this is the time to put EVERYTHING on the table, and if that means burning a bridge or three, do it now rather than try to put it off. But, I also know that I need to live with these people for at least another year or so, and I kind of want to just try and let it go if I can. I’m not sure that’s going to continue to be an option.

So I guess the reason I’m bringing this here is that I don’t know how to approach this. I’m going to be going against someone who is effectively an expert on the bible, apologetics, and everything else that goes along with it. At least, he’s an expert in that he’s been making this sort of thing his life, and will have ready arguments, counterpoints, and God on his side for all the handwaving defense needed if all else fails.

I suppose I’ll ask if anyone has any suggestions for some quick reads (I don’t feel I have the luxury of reading a lot of books before I get cornered on this again), blogs, articles, etc., on some of the concepts like refuting biblical inerrancy, countering points on evolution that creationists constantly get wrong, and anything else that might be thought as relevant. I don’t have an issue with quoting things I’ve heard and read (because I *know* I’m going to have the bible quoted at me as if it were artillery), but I also want to at least try and better understand some things that I might use.

So, with that also in mind, this is more a personal question that I'll ask everyone her (that I won’t mind having answered if others want to weigh in.) Am I wrong for feeling that I should at least make some effort to draw my line? And am I wrong for, at the same time, not wanting to fight that battle because I know that any question or point I can’t effectively counter is going to be thought of as a “point” against me and my stance on the matter? I’m aware that ultimately it won’t matter who “wins,” because I’m long past the point of anything from the bible swaying me, and I'm quite sure I won't put a dent in his armor either.

Anyway, I think I’ll conclude my post here. I know I was probably a little too general and vague about some things. I’m willing to elaborate if desired later on, especially if knowing something specific might help give a little bit of direction on how I can better handle this.

Hello there. Is a debate something you necessarily have to indulge? Can't you just say you've made your decision not to believe for personal reasons just as they've made theirs? And discussion of those personal reasons will probably lead to more vitriol.

Unless you just want to go at it. Then I have a boatload of books, articles and YouTube videos to suggest.

[AdMan]

As this is my first post to the forum, I’ll take a moment to explain my situation. I’m 28, almost 29, working a fairly typical eight hour work day in an office at the state capitol complex. That bit of information isn’t entirely relevant for what follows, but is included because hey, first post, and I wanted to share! I didn’t really intend to write a novel, but it looks like that very well may have happened.

<snipped for brevity>




First of all, Enceladan, welcome to the forum. I have to say that is one of the best first posts I have read. It's not easy to open up like you did, on an internet forum that's full of strangers.

I have to echo ExMinister's opinion that it takes a lot of courage to do what you did, and I congratulate you (and welcome you to our secret society of baby-eating atheists :D).

I know you are asking for ways in which you may prepare for the upcoming "debate" with your brother-in-law, and, while I have enjoyed debating the religious many a time, I wonder if it is such a good idea in your case, given that it's such a close and important family issue. Yes, I don't have any doubt that standing your ground and defending your lack of belief is worthwhile, but I don't see how a debate with your pastor brother-in-law is going to help your situation. There certainly is not going to be a winner--he won't convince you and you definitely won't convince him. It may turn into an acrimonious situation that will only make the year you have left living there even more difficult.

In any case, good luck--please let us know how things turn out. And remember you have a lot of virtual friends and support here.

[AvalonXQ]

You could also check out websites such as the skeptics annotated bible if you want to start formulating responses to specific bible quotes.

I would not recommend doing this. The S.A.B. is a particularly ignorant site; it takes most superficial approach to any given scripture without trying to understand it in content or dig deeper. An educated apologist can blow away any random S.A.B. "contradiction" with about thirty seconds of research.

There are far better, more informed sources for Biblical criticism if you're looking to tackle the subject intelligently.

[wardenclyffe]

I guess the bottom line is: If you don't believe, you don't believe. No amount of Bible verses is going to change that. They can't force you to believe something, they can only force you to pretend. Do they want you to pretend?

This. Basically, you do not have faith. You don't feel it. They do. You've tried. You convinced yourself that you felt it at one point, but now you don't. You don't need to get into an argument about the Bible. You and they can both agree that it requires faith to truly participate in their religion. You ain't got it. "Why don't you believe?" Respond with "Why do you believe?" The answer will probably have something to do with feeling the presence in their hearts or something. But you don't have that feeling. But if you believed you would.

Basically, you force them into accepting an extra-Biblical Catch-22. You cannot have faith unless you feel the Holy Spirit or whatever and you cannot feel that unless you have faith.

But, it seems as though you have to live with these people for an extended period. I don't know what's keeping you from moving closer to your girlfriend. Most likely school or money. Finish one and get the other and get out. It will make your life and your relationship with your family (which you value) much easier.

Ward

[AdMan]

But, it seems as though you have to live with these people for an extended period. I don't know what's keeping you from moving closer to your girlfriend. Most likely school or money. Finish one and get the other and get out. It will make your life and your relationship with your family (which you value) much easier.



I had wanted to say something like this in my post above. Enceladan, you're nearing 30 and have what sounds like a good, full-time job. What's keeping you from leaving? I don't think debates are going to significantly improve the situation with your sister and brother-in-law. And when you leave you won't need to worry about nasty glances at the dinner table.

[Kaylee]

Welcome to the forum Encleadan!

FWIW, I agree with AdMan's post, esp with what he says here:



<snip>

I know you are asking for ways in which you may prepare for the upcoming "debate" with your brother-in-law, and, while I have enjoyed debating the religious many a time, I wonder if it is such a good idea in your case, given that it's such a close and important family issue. Yes, I don't have any doubt that standing your ground and defending your lack of belief is worthwhile, but I don't see how a debate with your pastor brother-in-law is going to help your situation. There certainly is not going to be a winner--he won't convince you and you definitely won't convince him. It may turn into an acrimonious situation that will only make the year you have left living there even more difficult.

<snip>

I think there may be a couple of other issues going on here also. My guess is that your sister is many years older than you so even if your religous opinions were the same -- at one point you would both need to learn how to start relating to each other on a peer to peer basis if you are going to continue to have a meaningful relationship when you are both adults. Not all sibs get there -- so I do wish you luck with that. :)

Another issue is that your brother-in-law's congregation may be looking to see how he handles an atheist within his immediate family. He is probably dealing with external pressures, expectations and politics that are awkward for him since he is just not a member but also the leader of his congregation.

I do agree with AdMan that its not going to be helpful to have a big debate with your family. I would try to focus on what things you still have in common with your family and also let your b-i-l know that you understand that this is an awkward situation for him and while you are not willing to continute to do things that don't reflect your beliefs you do realize that that this is awkward situation for him. If he realizes that you realize that, maybe you will both be able to focus on what you have in common instead of what you disagree on. Maybe.

FWIW, I grew up in an orthodox Jewish family and stopped being an orthodox Jew when I was in my 20s. I didn't go into details with my family -- I just told them that it was important for me to have consistency in all the areas of my life and left it at that. IMHO, religion is not an area where logic is going to prevail among people who have religous beliefs.

ETA: I read the next few posts after this one and I see that I missed that your sister is only a couple of years older than you and that your are in your late 20s.

However, it still sounds like to me that your sister is playing the "big sister" role accented with a smidge of "I'm an adult and you are not quit there yet" flavor.

[Dunstan]

Hello there. Is a debate something you necessarily have to indulge? Can't you just say you've made your decision not to believe for personal reasons just as they've made theirs? And discussion of those personal reasons will probably lead to more vitriol.

Unless you just want to go at it. Then I have a boatload of books, articles and YouTube videos to suggest.

I had wanted to say something like this in my post above. Enceladan, you're nearing 30 and have what sounds like a good, full-time job. What's keeping you from leaving? I don't think debates are going to significantly improve the situation with your sister and brother-in-law. And when you leave you won't need to worry about nasty glances at the dinner table.

I echo both of these.

You are never going to "win" this debate in the sense of winning over your sister and brother-in-law, or the "audience" (if your parents or others are present). You seem more like you're dreading the prospect rather than relishing the opportunity to hash these issues out, so why do it? All you would be doing is encouraging them to think that they have a green light to evangelize to you and try to win you back.

Your goal should be to establish new relationships with these family members by which you can coexist without every conversation becoming an argument. And, if that's not possible, then you may need to seriously limit your contact with those who won't respect your lack of belief.

It sounds like your parents are at least willing to give you some space on this.

[Quinn]

Welcome, and as others have said, kudos for making this decision, having the guts to stick with it, and opening up about it here. For a moment I was honestly wondering whether you could be the little brother of a girl I dated in high school, because up to a point your description of your sister sounded just like her.

You seem to have a solid grasp of what you reasonably can and can't expect to change in this situation, which is a good thing. I don't have a lot of specific advice to offer in terms of having "the big talk," other than that I agree that approaching it as a debate is the wrong way to go. Don't try to convince them that you're right; instead, accept the fact that they believe you're wrong, and they're going to continue to believe that. From there it simply becomes a matter of how best to inform them that you're no longer going to let that belief control your life. Just know in advance that this talk will not go well and will not resolve anything, and the matter certainly won't be settled after that one talk is finished, because these things never are.

Because of this, I would start thinking less about the talk itself, and more about moving on with your life afterward. It sounds like your family, and by extension this church, is a major part of your life and your social support structure. If that's true, then to put it bluntly, you're gonna have to find new friends. If you think of religion as a form of addiction (which many of us do), then this comes clear. A junkie might get clean, but he's never gonna stay clean if he comes out of rehab and goes right back to hanging out with his old junkie friends. It sounds like you've accepted the painful possibility of having to "burn bridges" with your sister, but that alone won't be enough. Once you start getting people out of your life, it will be to your benefit to start bringing others in -- ones who won't cram their religion down your throat or judge you because of your lack of belief. They don't even have to be fellow atheists, as long as they're not psycho about their religion. This involves actively making an effort to get out and meet new people, which can be difficult for anyone, especially a self-described introvert. Online Meetup groups can be great for this, as can classes in topics that interest you. You might also see if there are any atheist/skeptic groups in your area, which would obviously help with meeting like-minded people.

Best of luck, and keep us posted.

[FSM]

Welcome Enceladan!

Everyone here has said it well: Debating might not be the path to take here...

I have a very Christian family-- and a mother that likes to tell me all the time that she's praying for me and that one day I will change my mind and find love instead of hate, an open heart instead of a cold one, etc. etc.

After debating her, ignoring her, joking with her about it, yelling, crying... really, I'm happiest when I just resign myself to the fact that she won't understand me and I probably won't understand her. She's coming from an honorable place, I guess, because she thinks she's trying to save me from eternal hellfire...

I try to appreciate her for the great qualities she has and let go of what I can't change about her without any expectation of her doing the same for me. :)

ETA: With that said, I don't spend a hell of a lot of time with my family because they just aren't my type of people.

[Beelzebuddy]

I say go for it. Your parents are already accepting of your break from faith, the hard part's done. Worst that happens is you learn something.

Arguing with preachers is either the easiest or most difficult thing in the world, but in both cases it's damned entertaining. It all depends on how much of their arguments rely on preaching to the choir, and how skilled they are at steering the conversation away from YHWH and toward Lil J. It's not hard to be the moral superior of the god of Abraham and Isaac, but J was savvy enough to only talk about all the good stuff and leave the real stinkers either begged (Hell) or for underlings to argue (Timotheus).

My advice would be to remain respectful but firm. You won't get any brownie points for acting like an ass here. If bridges need to be burnt, let him do the burning - he's the one with the imaginary friend commanding it, after all. Alternately, let him sit down, then sucker punch him, yell "God is dead!," chug a flask of whiskey, light his bible on fire and walk out the door with AC/DC's "Highway to Hell" playing in the background. Be sure to film this.

One thing that I know preachers HATE is science. Though as you might expect there's tons of studies which claim that prayer helps with this and helps with that, they're generally pretty crappy, (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17146135) and when you add it all together there's not really any effect. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16827626) So God really does't answer prayers, I'm afraid.

Failing all the above, you could invite him here. We've done respectful, moderated (in the debating sense, not the Nazi sense) conversations on topics far sillier than this, it's unlikely he'll be ridden out on a rail. Worst that happens is he learns something.

[Enceladan]

Well well, first off I'd like to thank everyone who welcomed me. It's rather reassuring to be reminded that people can actually stop, talk, and care about what a stranger's going through!

Without going into much more personal detail (even more than I have already? GASP!), I'll say that part of the reason why I'm still at home was health concerns that've been recently addressed, so I haven't been working full time for all that long. That being said, the moment that I think I can make the clean break and get out of here to be with that certain someone, I'm going to do it. Just a case of getting money and work experience set aside so I can actually be a good partner rather than a deadbeat, y'know?

As for the debate itself... mm, it's true that I probably don't have to have it. And I honestly don't want to have it either. The suggestions on some things I could say to kind of ward it off have merit, and I'll have to think about it a bit more. I guess on some level I have a fear that me simply saying that I don't want to have that talk, or that it's a case where I don't believe, and that I need them to respect my differing views won't be sufficient.

It might be, and I'm simply over-worrying an issue that isn't worth the concern.

The problem is, though, as Kaylee pointed out: my sister really is taking the big sister role, on everything. I have a suspicion that it's because she has a view of me being this delicate little thing (I can't exactly fault her for this, I was never all that tall or able to do much to stand up for myself when growing up, and she would do that for me), but I also feel like there's this impression of me that she has, and it doesn't apply anymore.

I'll take a look at the book suggestions that ExMinister tossed up, and also at some of the videos suggested. I appreciate the time you've all taken to make the suggestions, and I'll most certainly keep everyone updated regarding how this ultimately plays out, however I decide to act on it.

ETA: I did want to say something about what AvalonXQ posted: the concept on how the law of Moses only applied to Israel is an interesting point, and both one I hadn't heard of and one that I'm not at all qualified to comment upon, but at the same time, the plan of salvation only applying AFTER Christ still doesn't account for people elsewhere in the world never being able to hear the gospel. And since John 14:6 doesn't leave much room for good intentions by virtuous pagans, were I to take it literally, I would say God sent people he happened to create on other continents to hell. It doesn't add up to me, but that's certainly not to say that there isn't an answer that apologetics could provide for it (whether it's valid is a whole different game.)

[Enceladan]

My advice would be to remain respectful but firm. You won't get any brownie points for acting like an ass here. If bridges need to be burnt, let him do the burning - he's the one with the imaginary friend commanding it, after all. Alternately, let him sit down, then sucker punch him, yell "God is dead!," chug a flask of whiskey, light his bible on fire and walk out the door with AC/DC's "Highway to Hell" playing in the background. Be sure to film this.


Hah! Anyone that knows me would be aware that this would be the most horrifically out of character thing for me to do, ever.

And it would be totally worth it.

I must consider this.

[Quinn]

I did want to say something about what AvalonXQ posted:


Handy tip: while I would certainly never try to suppress discussion, I'll point out that resisting the temptation to respond to posts like that one, which try to suck you back into arguing about the merits of religion itself rather than discussing the actual matter at hand, is excellent practice for avoiding that trap in real life conversations. ;)

[Beelzebuddy]

ETA: I did want to say something about what AvalonXQ posted: the concept on how the law of Moses only applied to Israel is an interesting point, and both one I hadn't heard of and one that I'm not at all qualified to comment upon, but at the same time, the plan of salvation only applying AFTER Christ still doesn't account for people elsewhere in the world never being able to hear the gospel. And since John 14:6 doesn't leave much room for good intentions by virtuous pagans, were I to take it literally, I would say God sent people he happened to create on other continents to hell. It doesn't add up to me, but that's certainly not to say that there isn't an answer that apologetics could provide for it (whether it's valid is a whole different game.)
AvalonXQ would be a good guy to practice on, actually. His arguments generally demonstrate common tactics of apologetics (excessively loquacious circumlocution designed to obfuscate the generally made-the-hell-up nature of all the excuses) without being so refined as to make it hard to pick out the ass pulls. Case in point: OT God used to have a heart-to-heart with the friends and family of deceased gentiles, but nowadays damns them without a second thought on the basis that they're unappreciatve of their atonement? Srsly?

Anyway, when Avalon starts disappearing from your conversations, his only excuse when pressed being "Well, I ignore a lot of posts," you'll know you're ready for meatier stuff.

Handy tip: while I would certainly never try to squelch discussion, I'll point out that resisting the temptation to respond to posts like that one, which try to suck you back into arguing about the merits of religion itself rather than discussing the actual matter at hand, is excellent practice for avoiding that trap in real life.Oh, I disagree. Arguing theology with theologicians (even attempting to do so) is the quickest route to either earning their respect or exposing them as someone who is never going to listen to anything you say. The key is to tell the difference.

[Beerina]

I would not recommend doing this. The S.A.B. is a particularly ignorant site; it takes most superficial approach to any given scripture without trying to understand it in content or dig deeper. An educated apologist can blow away any random S.A.B. "contradiction" with about thirty seconds of research.

I have to agree -- it's an entertaining read, to be sure, but a number of their snarky comments have adequate responses disproving their interpretations.

Still, it's a good place to go as a first site to look up the controversies about any given passage.

[Quinn]

Arguing theology with theologicians (even attempting to do so) is the quickest route to either earning their respect or exposing them as someone who is never going to listen to anything you say.


I agree. And if your goals include either or both of those things, then I'd say it's a worthwhile activity. On the other hand, if your goal is simply to get said theologicians (nice word, btw) to leave you alone so you can get on with your life, I'd say that's among the worst ways to go about it.

[Myriad]

I don’t know what changed, but I couldn’t handle it anymore. I think it was the constant bashing of issues like gay marriage, abortion, the evils of the Democrats, the fearmongering about how all these evils in the world were clearly the work of Satan. It finally hit a point where I was getting angry and offended by how easily the venomous rhetoric was being thrown to the congregation, and how happily it was being devoured, week after week.


If the church you and your family were attending has been preaching sanctimonious intolerance and bigotry (things Jesus was not, according to scripture, in favor of), declaring God's favor for one political side or another (that's a form of taking the Lord's name in vain), bearing false witness against its perceived enemies (e.g. Obama) in direct violation of several commandments, voicing contempt for the actual genius of creation revealed by science, and other such sinful behaviors, you have every moral justification for ceasing your support and participation in that church.

I understand that that's not the reason you stopped believing and participating, and I'm not advocating that you lie and claim it is. (That ship has sailed anyhow.)

But, you might point out that even if you did still believe in Jesus, you would have to reject that church for failing to follow so many of the teachings of the Savior they themselves lay claim to. Christianity claims to be moral, so if a church's teachings are not moral, they cannot be true. So, if there is "blame" for your decision (I'm not saying there should be, but in their eyes there must be), they must share it.

If they're seeing Satan everywhere, then Satan is the beam in their eyes, not the mote in yours (see Matthew 7:5).

Respectfully,
Myriad

[ExMinister]

You might also be interested in books by Bart D. Ehrman, a New Testament scholar and former evangelical Christian.

Jesus Interrupted http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions/dp/0061173940/ref=pd_sim_b_3

or Misquoting Jesus http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=pd_sim_b_1

[MattusMaximus]

I guess the bottom line is: If you don't believe, you don't believe. No amount of Bible verses is going to change that. They can't force you to believe something, they can only force you to pretend. Do they want you to pretend?

It's worse than that. Ask them if they want you to lie, both to yourself and to them. Then remind them that lying is a sin, as per their own Commandments.

ETA: And welcome to the Forum, Enceladan.

[The Norseman]

I would not recommend doing this. The S.A.B. is a particularly ignorant site; it takes most superficial approach to any given scripture without trying to understand it in content or dig deeper. An educated apologist can blow away any random S.A.B. "contradiction" with about thirty seconds of research.

There are far better, more informed sources for Biblical criticism if you're looking to tackle the subject intelligently.
I have to agree -- it's an entertaining read, to be sure, but a number of their snarky comments have adequate responses disproving their interpretations.

Still, it's a good place to go as a first site to look up the controversies about any given passage.
I'm not attached to this particular website; it was the first to come to my mind. Besides, it can still be valuable for someone in this position to see what works, what doesn't and what could be considered a valid argument and what could not.

My specific point was made, however, about simply saying that whatever passages or that bible is no longer meaningful to you and leave it at that.

[Enceladan]

You folks are making me feel like I should've decided to speak up on here sooner, heh.

(Despite being a lurker for about half a year, I suspect I'll learn through experience who's worth replying to or not)

I've certainly been left with a bit to think about (certainly not a bad thing!) and also the feeling that I need to be careful that my conclusions on this issue are my own. I guess that's one of the problems with having an impression of something or a feeling, but not entirely knowing the reasons why, or how to explain it.

I've kind of forgotten where I was going with that, so I'll just state that I'm starting to get something of a feel for how to handle this, and for that, I appreciate the advice.

[AvalonXQ]

Beelzebuddy provides a very valuable example here of something you might encounter.

Anyway, when Avalon starts disappearing from your conversations, his only excuse when pressed being "Well, I ignore a lot of posts," you'll know you're ready for meatier stuff.

If you do decide to seriously engage your family, some of them may engage in disingenuous tactics similar to Beelzebuddy's, such as "argument by exhaustion". That's where they (often as a group) hit you with a dozen different arguments at once, or persist in saying the same things over and over and over. Any attempt to disengage, or just a failure to respond to any specific point, is then used as proof that you can't respond or you're "not really serious" about the discussion.

The best advice for dealing with these people is to point out that truth is not established by the person who has the most time on his hands to argue the point. Human discussion isn't like bulldogs fighting over a bone; the ability to latch on and refuse to ever shut up doesn't make someone right.

Engage when and where you choose to engage. Disengage when the conversation ceases to have value. Try to be respectful about it, and in the end future discussions are more likely to occur on your terms.

Anyway, good luck. It's very difficult to be honest with people who are likely to respond both very personally and very negatively to what you have to say. Personally I've chosen to make my position clear, give them the opportunity to express their position, and then forcibly steer the conversation to other, less contentious topics. In my family it was the best way to keep the peace. Your situation may differ.

[BravesFan]

First off welcome to the forum!

I agree with my fellow posters that what you did took an buttload of guts and you are commended for doing what you feel is right. i also think that your parents are being very cool about it (I have a suspicion your dad agrees with you but has chosen the path of least resistance as far as your mom is concerned).

Your sister is probably always going to be a bit of a pain about this, because she made a drastic life decision focused around an entire belief system and by saying it's not valid, you have not only dismissed this belief system, but her entire life choice as well..... I think that she will get over it eventually.

If you want information to help you express your thoughts better (as well as counter the most common arguments most atheists face) i would read Christopher Hitchens book God is Not Great .

Also google sites on defending atheism.

It can be a bit of a bother sometimes ,atheism, but trust me, you will sleep better at night having your convictions.


P.S. Maybe you should search for work where that girl lives and start yourself a new fresh life away from your immediate family. You would be free from constant defense of your position yet in this modern age, never too far away to have a chat or skype.

[BravesFan]

Oh, I forgot to add this:

When you choose to have the discussion with your brother in law, I would preface it with this statement" I am not here to debate you, nor am I interested in being re-converted or talked into returning. What I am about to say are my personal feelings on this issue and to disagree is fine, but to attempt to manipulate is not"

Plus, you can always tell him it's part of Gods plan right? :-)

[dlorde]

Excellent thread, Enceladan! You'll find quite a few people here who've been through a religious upbringing and discovered that they were only going through the motions and didn't have faith.

You seem to be on reasonably good terms with your family, and you say your parents are cool about your lack of belief (although I expect they express some disappointment and hurt). Having been in a vaguely similar position, growing up in a Roman Catholic environment, I don't think that having a big debate about it will get you anywhere positive - as I see it, the details of dogma, scripture, etc., are incidental to the underlying faith and consequent belief. In many cases, the things you see as reasons not to believe will be, to them, the reasons they do believe. You're more likely to build walls of incomprehension between you, by attempting rational argument, than become closer. They're not going to change their faith, and neither are you.

In your position, to stay on good terms, I'd try to be honest and sympathetic; explain that you understand their concerns, and how difficult it must be for them; that you haven't suddenly chosen to reject your religious heritage, but over time you've come to realise that you just don't have the faith they have, and without that faith you can't believe in it. They may not be able to understand how you feel, but they should understand that it would be dishonest to pretend to believe when you don't.

I was fortunate - in that, when I reached my mid-to-late teens and was clearly old enough to think things out for myself, my folks let me get on with it - they'd done their duty to raise me in the prescribed way, and from then on they felt it was up to me to exercise my own free will.

ETA: it just occurred to me that you might find some useful ideas in Alain de Botton's recent book 'Religion for Atheists', in which he argues that religion has some positive aspects, and you don't have to throw out all the bath water with the baby. I have some sympathy with that argument, although, having browsed the book, it's not really my cup of tea bathwater ;)

[Daald]

Hi.

I would recommend two websites.

1. http://www.atheist-experience.com/
2. http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

Both of these come from the Atheist Community of Austin.

The first has all the TV shows they have done and they debate religious people online all the time.

The second website deals with a lot of the apologetics for the existence of god and shows how the arguments don't logically work.

My advice to you would be to avoid the debate with you brother in law. Such debates with your family will not lead anywhere nice whether you win them or lose them. Just cut them off with "I do not believe anymore. Let me find my own way in life. If I need your help I will ask for it."

[sowellfan]

Without going into much more personal detail (even more than I have already? GASP!), I'll say that part of the reason why I'm still at home was health concerns that've been recently addressed, so I haven't been working full time for all that long. That being said, the moment that I think I can make the clean break and get out of here to be with that certain someone, I'm going to do it. Just a case of getting money and work experience set aside so I can actually be a good partner rather than a deadbeat, y'know?
Congrats on your deconversion, and good luck on dealing with your family. I was raised in the Assemblies of God, and my family has been fairly reasonable about my being an atheist - though they obviously don't agree. In my case, they don't *want* to discuss it - I think because they suspect that I've learned a lot more about the problems than they have learned to address. In addition to the various books, I'd advise listening to various atheist-themed podcasts - Reasonable Doubts is a good one that goes into depth on lots of subjects, and Chariots of Iron is good also. 'The Atheist Experience' is great when it's a good episode, but they seem to have really poor discipline at keeping one crappy caller from stinking up an entire episode with vapid yammering.

Also - regarding moving out - I think most people are much better off moving out on their own first, without moving straight in with the person that they're romantically involved with. Especially with it being an LDR to start, it's almost impossible to know if you're *really* going to be compatible, without *lots* of time spent together. Going straight from LDR to moved in together, without having ever lived outside of your house, running your own life at your own pace, just seems like a recipe for massive extra stress on the relationship.

[Kaylee]

ETA: it just occurred to me that you might find some useful ideas in Alain de Botton's recent book 'Religion for Atheists', in which he argues that religion has some positive aspects, and you don't have to throw out all the bath water with the baby. I have some sympathy with that argument, although, having browsed the book, it's not really my cup of tea bathwater ;)

Interesting point, dlorde. It reminds me that I have met at least one agnostic who stays strongly affliliated with a religion because they appreciate the community and the values even if they don't share the supernatural beliefs.

Religions do vary widely. Not all of them are interested in looking for evil in every corner and in every person not part of their community. And some of them even take on projects and try to do helpful things for their community.

[Mudcat]

Welcome to JREF, newcomer. I read through your post to the end and I have to say I identify up to a certain point, although none of my relatives run a church to my knowledge.

Up to a couple years ago I had lived on my own until I got laid off from work and could no longer support myself financially so I moved back in with my mother and rented space in her basement (any wisecracks about that get's reported, no exceptions) who had become a widow shortly before. All of a sudden this intelligent and critically thinking woman is converting to Judaism and sharing it with me because I'm the only one of her three children living with her.

I take issue that the Jewish church was so underhanded that it converted her and filled her head with superstitious rot in what they knew was her moment of weakness and now she's theirs completely. Now she's quite insistent that we (her children) believe in God, when none of us do.

Religion really is quite insidious, isn't it?

[BravesFan]

Dangit Mudcat, I was doing fine until you said (any wisecracks will be reported no exceptions) now all that keeps running through my head is "pardon me Roy, is that yer mama landlord new jew?"

Go ahead, report me.... i will take my whooping

[Vic Vega]

I really don't have a heck of a lot to add other than my congratulations. You did a very hard thing in standing up to your family and telling them what you believe (or don't believe). You deserve praise for this.

In the end though, you've done yourself a great service. You are now free.

[Beelzebuddy]

Beelzebuddy provides a very valuable example here of something you might encounter.

If you do decide to seriously engage your family, some of them may engage in disingenuous tactics similar to Beelzebuddy's, such as "argument by exhaustion". That's where they (often as a group) hit you with a dozen different arguments at once, or persist in saying the same things over and over and over. Any attempt to disengage, or just a failure to respond to any specific point, is then used as proof that you can't respond or you're "not really serious" about the discussion.
By the way, Enceladan, Avalon and I are referring to this thead. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=232090&page=4) I'm linking to page 4 because thats where I came in. You can decide for yourself whether Avalon was being inflammatory or everyone else was being obfuscatory. Do read my second post on that page though; where I relate my own "coming out" journey.

[AvalonXQ]

By the way, Enceladan, Avalon and I are referring to this thead. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=232090&page=4) I'm linking to page 4 because thats where I came in. You can decide for yourself whether Avalon was being inflammatory or everyone else was being obfuscatory. Do read my second post on that page though; where I relate my own "coming out" journey.

I second the recommendation to read the very excellent personal stories related on that thread. It's always good to understand where people are coming from.

[Psi Baba]

I *know* I’m going to have the bible quoted at me as if it were artillery
I just want to say that this is an excellent statement. Good luck with everything, Enceladan.

[Seismosaurus]

So I guess the reason I’m bringing this here is that I don’t know how to approach this. I’m going to be going against someone who is effectively an expert on the bible, apologetics, and everything else that goes along with it. At least, he’s an expert in that he’s been making this sort of thing his life, and will have ready arguments, counterpoints, and God on his side for all the handwaving defense needed if all else fails.
Perhaps the best way to approach it is not to engage in the argument? If you want to have justifications and arguments ready then that's fine, of course... but it's equally fine to simply decide not to. You are, after all, in no way required to justify yourself to others for your beliefs. A simple "I don't want to discuss it," or "whatever the arguments for and against, what it comes down to is that I no longer have faith," would save you a lot of work.

I suppose I’ll ask if anyone has any suggestions for some quick reads (I don’t feel I have the luxury of reading a lot of books before I get cornered on this again), blogs, articles, etc., on some of the concepts like refuting biblical inerrancy, countering points on evolution that creationists constantly get wrong, and anything else that might be thought as relevant. I don’t have an issue with quoting things I’ve heard and read (because I *know* I’m going to have the bible quoted at me as if it were artillery), but I also want to at least try and better understand some things that I might use.
If you do want arguments, I like sites like this (http://www.atheistfaq.com/search/label/all%20faqs), this (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/nontheism/atheism/arguments.html), and this (http://www.argumentsforatheism.com/).

Am I wrong for feeling that I should at least make some effort to draw my line? And am I wrong for, at the same time, not wanting to fight that battle because I know that any question or point I can’t effectively counter is going to be thought of as a “point” against me and my stance on the matter? I’m aware that ultimately it won’t matter who “wins,” because I’m long past the point of anything from the bible swaying me, and I'm quite sure I won't put a dent in his armor either.
Ask yourself this : what purpose would be served by engaging them in this debate? There's nothing wrong with an honest discussion, but that's not what this sounds like. The implication seems to be that you're accountable to them for your views, that both you and they think you should either justify yourself to them or, if you can't, then you should change your beliefs.

I think you are not only right in drawing the line, but that you need to draw the line rather more firmly and tell them they're not welcome to cross it.

[Scopedog]

I’m going to be going against someone who is effectively an expert on the bible, apologetics, and everything else that goes along with it. At least, he’s an expert in that he’s been making this sort of thing his life, and will have ready arguments, counterpoints, and God on his side for all the handwaving defense needed if all else fails.

The way you articulated your story is wonderful and compelling. I can't offer too much advice but maybe it would help to confront him with the thought in mind that an expert on the bible is like an expert on Star Wars or Star Trek or Lord of the Rings or Dungeons and Dragons or the Twilight Trilogy. In other words, don't be intimidated and good luck!

[sgtbaker]

I echo everyone else; avoid the debate it's not worth it. If you do end up defending your position, the strongest stance you can have is to remember the bible is the claim. It doesn't matter how educated he is in biblical studies, the claim can never be the evidence.

[Dani]

Welcome to the forum, Enceladan!

If you have the time, I recommend you to watch this series of videos. I've never been a believer because my enviornment isn't especially religious (quite the contrary) but even so I was fascinated and felt like my own story was being told while I watched these videos. It's brilliantly explained, with lots of questions and answers that I'm sure you'll enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A&feature=plcp

Here, the first video of the series:

PLA0C3C1D163BE880A

ETA: By the way. From what I've read, I think it's time for a little more introspection rather than debate, especially if the debate is with members of your own family, but that's up to you. These ideas take time. Use this forum as a way to polish your critical thinking skills, if you wish. If you ask me, finding your own internally consistent epistemology (the way you approach knowing stuff) is much more valuable than being an atheist, a theist or any other specific idea. You know, in order to build you need solid foundations.

[RobDegraves]

If you don't mind, I would like to offer a different kind of advice.


Don't avoid discussions on religious matters, but don't worry about winning or losing.


If you have a discussion on a subject and someone stumps you, that does not mean that this person is correct, though they could be. It does mean however that you have new information to examine critically. Too often we seem to think that decisions need to be taken before we have all the facts. That is what religion, and in fact most beliefs or bias, are all about.


Let's say I have a debate with someone, and he (or she) presents evidence that I didn't know existed or an argument that I cannot refute. I acknowledge the point politely (usually ;) ), then go and research the information presented to the best of my ability. Only with actual knowledge, only with careful and deliberate thought can I base a position.

Religion tends to be a very emotional subject. Often both believers and apostates tend to have strong feelings on the subject. However, if you are looking for truth, you cannot let those emotions cloud the issue. Be honest with yourself and do your homework (which obviously you are trying to do).


A discussion is there to examine facts.

Decisions should only occur after all the facts have been looked at clearly.

Take your time. :)

[Scopedog]

Another thought that occurs to me that is worth having in mind when discussing this topic with your family: church politics. I assume that your family's church is just like any other. Its a microcosm of society and it probably has juvenile high school politics and cattiness and gossip and back-stabbing and two-facedness and hypocrisy. Your parents and sister and brother-in-law probably have rivals within the church that are literally salivating over the thought of anything going wrong in the lives of your family so they can tear them down behind their back and boast about how much more pious they are. Your family probably also understands this on some level, although they would almost certainly describe it differently. They have a vested interest in not being compromised and exposed by your actions and that will at least be a subconscious element of their reasoning.

[Leumas]

...

Anyway, I think I’ll conclude my post here. I know I was probably a little too general and vague about some things. I’m willing to elaborate if desired later on, especially if knowing something specific might help give a little bit of direction on how I can better handle this.


This book is IMHO the best book you could read. It is about a missionary who becomes an atheist and documents his step by step awakening.


Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary (http://www.amazon.com/Why-Believed-Reflections-Missionary-ebook/dp/B003UNLMRY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1334558090&sr=8-2)


The Kindle version is $0.99 and you do not need a Kindle device to read it. You can read it using any device (PC, Mac, iPad, Androids, Phones etc.) using the appropriate Amazon app (http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=sa_menu_karl3?ie=UTF8&docId=1000493771).

The book has beautifully detailed reasoning against the apologetics that could be applied in your case and what makes it a lot more tangible is that it is from a person who used to apply the apologetics to convince himself along with others.

I think a few hours invested in reading this book would give you GREAT information to use in your own situation.


Also this book is excellent

The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails (http://www.amazon.com/The-Christian-Delusion-Faith-ebook/dp/B003OIBSAG/ref=pd_sim_kstore_41?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2)

[Enceladan]

So, now that I've had a few more days to think this over...

I agree that more introspection is necessary. I think "debate" may have been the wrong word to use, as I suppose my intent was more to draw the proverbial line and give my reasons without trying to win anyone over to my views. I'm not sure what I'd do if I actually managed to pull off a hat trick like that!

As for church politics, yes, a thousand times yes. I'm not completely certain that people are perched with spears in the trees, ready to pounce at the first sign of strife regarding me, but I do know of some occasions on other matters in the past where this has indeed been the case. Seems like there's always at least one family that has a lot of members in the church, and uses that influence to get their way. This one's not much different.

I think I've got a little bit of dissonance on the verge of full-blown ambivalence on the matter too, because I realize that, while I can't continue to be part of it or even condone it, the church is essentially my brother-in-law's livelihood. All other reasons aside, there's a realization on my part that I could very well cause issues with that.

(I'm sure some would be okay with that, but that's not really the point right now)

Leumas, I actually did pick up Why I believed a week or two ago when I saw it on sale, and started reading it this past week. I haven't finished it yet, but I'd also heartily agree and give it my endorsement. I'll take a look at the other one you suggested once I've finished it.

[tsig]

So, now that I've had a few more days to think this over...

I agree that more introspection is necessary. I think "debate" may have been the wrong word to use, as I suppose my intent was more to draw the proverbial line and give my reasons without trying to win anyone over to my views. I'm not sure what I'd do if I actually managed to pull off a hat trick like that!

As for church politics, yes, a thousand times yes. I'm not completely certain that people are perched with spears in the trees, ready to pounce at the first sign of strife regarding me, but I do know of some occasions on other matters in the past where this has indeed been the case. Seems like there's always at least one family that has a lot of members in the church, and uses that influence to get their way. This one's not much different.

I think I've got a little bit of dissonance on the verge of full-blown ambivalence on the matter too, because I realize that, while I can't continue to be part of it or even condone it, the church is essentially my brother-in-law's livelihood. All other reasons aside, there's a realization on my part that I could very well cause issues with that.

(I'm sure some would be okay with that, but that's not really the point right now)

Leumas, I actually did pick up Why I believed a week or two ago when I saw it on sale, and started reading it this past week. I haven't finished it yet, but I'd also heartily agree and give it my endorsement. I'll take a look at the other one you suggested once I've finished it.

It's hard to convince anyone of a fact when their paycheck depends on them not acknowledging that fact.

[Leumas]

Leumas, I actually did pick up Why I believed a week or two ago when I saw it on sale, and started reading it this past week. I haven't finished it yet, but I'd also heartily agree and give it my endorsement. I'll take a look at the other one you suggested once I've finished it.



You may also enjoy watching these 22 videos (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A0C3C1D163BE880A&feature=iv&src_vid=JOmSYHzeoNA&annotation_id=annotation_399556) (almost 3.5 hours altogether) about the deconversion of a previously quite theistic person. The videos are REALLY well done and very informative..... a very poignant story.

[P.J. Denyer]

Welcome to the wonderful world of JREF posting and congratulations on bootstrapping yourself out of belief under such difficult circumstances. I'm pleased to hear your parents are being so cool about it and even your sister and brother in law are still speaking to you!

I can only echo what others have said, this is your family and you have to consider if a debate will cause bad feeling and, if so, if it's worth it. Of course if your BiL and yourself can debate this subject and keep it friendly (and especially if it can be done on a mutual 'I didn't know that, can I go away, learn something about this and come back to you?' basis) then it could be very interesting and show that you're not close minded or insecure in your non belief. If you do get stumped, this is a great resource with plenty of people willing to look at the the arguments and help you rebut them.

[Dani]

You may also enjoy watching these 22 videos (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A0C3C1D163BE880A&feature=iv&src_vid=JOmSYHzeoNA&annotation_id=annotation_399556) (almost 3.5 hours altogether) about the deconversion of a previously quite theistic person. The videos are REALLY well done and very informative..... a very poignant story.

In fact, I mentioned it earlier. I saw those videos because you posted the link months ago in a different thread.

[Leumas]

In fact, I mentioned it earlier. I saw those videos because you posted the link months ago in a different thread.


Sorry Dani... I did not see your posting.... but it is so good that it is worth posting about twice... :)

[Leumas]

Welcome to the wonderful world of JREF posting and congratulations on bootstrapping yourself out of belief under such difficult circumstances. I'm pleased to hear your parents are being so cool about it and even your sister and brother in law are still speaking to you!

I can only echo what others have said, this is your family and you have to consider if a debate will cause bad feeling and, if so, if it's worth it. Of course if your BiL and yourself can debate this subject and keep it friendly (and especially if it can be done on a mutual 'I didn't know that, can I go away, learn something about this and come back to you?' basis) then it could be very interesting and show that you're not close minded or insecure in your non belief. If you do get stumped, this is a great resource with plenty of people willing to look at the the arguments and help you rebut them.



And even if you do not get stumped.... it is probably quite entertaining and informative to post the points on JREF and open them for further discussion.

You might get more insight about the issues from all the people here, many of whom are impressively knowledgeable and hilariously witty to boot.

Even if you had a rebuttal yourself it might be worthwhile to see what others have to add..... just the links to other sites and citations that people do here would make the whole thing an invaluable education.... even from people who are religious.... I learn quite a lot from people who disagree with me; sometimes even more than from people who agree with me.... but only sometimes :D

[dlorde]

Enceladan, to stay on reasonable terms with the family (if that's going to be possible), you may find you need to make them aware that you understand the concerns they have and the difficulties your loss of faith will cause them; it may help to persuade them that it is not an act of explicit rejection or rebellion, simply that you have stopped believing. Letting them know you understand their position could help avoid the polarization of positions that can separate people emotionally.

[RenaissanceBiker]

She then went on the attack, questioning me on all the things like how did I think we were created, what I thought was the purpose for life, things of that nature. I couldn’t defend myself that well against it.
The best answer to this type of question is, "I don't know and neither do you."