The Brits - Friend or Foe?

Gotcha, didn't I?

I just thought I'd beat the flaming right-wingers to it.

How many DAYS do you think it will be before you start seeing this said seriously, if the Brits pull out of the war? I think many Americans are so crazed with war fever that they'll even see the Brits as the enemy if they pull out.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by sundog
Gotcha, didn't I?

I just thought I'd beat the flaming right-wingers to it.

How many DAYS do you think it will be before you start seeing this said seriously, if the Brits pull out of the war? I think many Americans are so crazed with war fever that they'll even see the Brits as the enemy if they pull out.

Don't hold your breath. It won't happen. Besides, contrary to Eurothinking, Americans are not against thoughtful and reasoned differences of opinion. We just don't like people like the French who have made the issue one of America instead of Iraq.

"Will veto any new resolution no matter what it says," quoth Chirac. And then people wonder why so many Americans have lost faith in the value of the UN.

[headscratcher4]

Yes...to help build the list...

Remember, the Brits were the architects of "appeasement" in 1938/39. The only thing that saved their butts was Churchill (half American) and the United States ... and we'd of done it quicker, too, if we didn't always have to bend over backwards to keep Montgomery happy!

Others can fill in the rest of the soon to be emergent anti-brit rants...

One wonders what will happen to English Muffins? Or, putting "English" on the ball in pool or tennis? The mind boogles...

[LillyThePink]

Originally posted by Jocko

Besides, contrary to Eurothinking, Americans are not against thoughtful and reasoned differences of opinion.

Except when it doesn't agree with yours ;) Again I say to you, your President has stated that if you are not "with" him, then you are against him.

Which would put the Brits on the enemy team if Tony decides to save his own skin.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by LillyThePink

Except when it doesn't agree with yours ;) Again I say to you, your President has stated that if you are not "with" him, then you are against him.

Which would put the Brits on the enemy team if Tony decides to save his own skin.
The last thing I want to do is defend the moronic things said by GWB. However, in this case, I don't think that easy cowboy rhetoric was aimed at everbody out there. And I don't think it's fair to take that soundbyte literally.

The context for the "you're either for us or against us," was 9/11. GWB was speaking to the Middle Eastern states who openly support and sympathize with terrorist causes. The meaning was, "don't help hide al Qaeda."

GWB may not be the smartest guy around, but he's not crazy.

[LillyThePink]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
Yes...to help build the list...

Remember, the Brits were the architects of "appeasement" in 1938/39. The only thing that saved their butts was Churchill (half American) and the United States ... and we'd of done it quicker, too, if we didn't always have to bend over backwards to keep Montgomery happy!

Others can fill in the rest of the soon to be emergent anti-brit rants...

One wonders what will happen to English Muffins? Or, putting "English" on the ball in pool or tennis? The mind boogles...

ah don't worry about us colonising b*strds, we'll be back we're teaming up with the Canadians and we're planning on making your heads explode with a combination of English Muffins and Maple Syrup.

I love anti-Brit rantage...

AS for what George says, and what he means.... not the same, granted, but for a public speaker, he sure makes a great goalie.

[richardm]

Originally posted by LillyThePink


ah don't worry about us colonising b*strds, we'll be back we're teaming up with the Canadians and we're planning on making your heads explode with a combination of English Muffins and Maple Syrup.


Shhh... So far the Americans haven't realised that the reason for luring all their military to the Middle East is so that Britain can sneak back and re-colonise... and with luck, they won't cotton on until it's too late!
(Which is why the French are opposed, of course)

[richardm]

Oops.

[Wile E. Coyote]

As much as the aid of the UK would be appreciated, I think Tony Blair should pull out of the agreement. The people have spoken, and it is supposed to be a democracy, so let them have their way.

Although I support the war and think that it needs to be done, I believe the US should give up and go home. Remove the sanctions that everyone bitches about, and then watch the Middle East go to hell.

The entire world complains that the US gets involved in everything. Maybe it is time they realized what non-involvement entails.

[LillyThePink]

Non-involvement is impossible in the global market, mate, although I would LOVE to send you back all your McDonalds and other such nonsense. The fact is that the world is getting smaller.

And I'm not saying that Sadaam is not a bad man. I'm not saying that Iraq cannot function as a dictator state. I'm not even condemning our leaders for imposing 12 years of crippling sanctions before starting to act. But I AM blaming them for telling outright lies in a propaganda campaign that would have put the Stalinists to shame.

What is apparent to me is that British public opinion is terribly important right now. Get out there and hit the streets!

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by LillyThePink


ah don't worry about us colonising b*strds, we'll be back we're teaming up with the Canadians and we're planning on making your heads explode with a combination of English Muffins and Maple Syrup.


Sorry, the Canadian Military can't afford Maple Syrup anymore. But we can provide extra Bryan Adams and Celine Dion records.

Just please, don't try to sell us any more leaky submarines.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Segnosaur
But we can provide extra Bryan Adams and Celine Dion records.


... Are those allowable under the Geneva Convention?

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by tjwojo

Although I support the war and think that it needs to be done, I believe the US should give up and go home. Remove the sanctions that everyone bitches about, and then watch the Middle East go to hell.

The entire world complains that the US gets involved in everything. Maybe it is time they realized what non-involvement entails.
You know, that was covered in a recent episode of the "Daily Show". Jon Stewart was interviewing someone from an international think tank (sure wish I could remember his name, or the organization he worked for), and the topic was brought up of how people around the world thought Bush was more "dangerous" than Saddam. But, when people are questioned further about whether they think the U.S. should withdraw its military from the area, they tend to say "No".

There's another thread here about a similar situation in South Korea... The president of SK had campaigned on an anti-American platform, but when the U.S. decided to redeploy its troops, they complained. (See: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15511)

[LillyThePink]

It amuses me when people claim that Americans can deal with criticism or differences of opinion, when in practise what happens is that one of you always goes "we should just take our ball in, THEN you'd be stuffed"

Yeah, I reckon we would, BUT we wouldn't have to put up with you always telling us how you continue to save the world single-handedly.

[LeFevre]

Originally posted by LillyThePink
It amuses me when people claim that Americans can deal with criticism or differences of opinion, when in practise what happens is that one of you always goes "we should just take our ball in, THEN you'd be stuffed"

Yeah, I reckon we would, BUT we wouldn't have to put up with you always telling us how you continue to save the world single-handedly.

yeah one of us ALWAYS does that, no stereotypes there :)


hey someone has to clean up after the Brit empire! :p

[LillyThePink]

Originally posted by tjwojo
Although I support the war and think that it needs to be done, I believe the US should give up and go home. Remove the sanctions that everyone bitches about, and then watch the Middle East go to hell.

The entire world complains that the US gets involved in everything. Maybe it is time they realized what non-involvement entails.

Le, darlin' this is the post I was referring to in this instance - but there IS always one.. I appreciate you think it's a stereotype, but really, hon....

;) Do that tongue thing again ;)

[LeFevre]

Originally posted by LillyThePink


Le, darlin' this is the post I was referring to in this instance - but there IS always one.. I appreciate you think it's a stereotype, but really, hon....

;) Do that tongue thing again ;)

uh Le? Think you missed some letters there!

never say always, or never, no wait . . .

Maybe I think it a stereotype cause I dont consider myself "one" of those. It is sad to think that the Time Cube guy is "one of us" humans! :eek:


I like anything pink, even spam :p

[LillyThePink]

Time Cube??

Spammity spam... wonderful spam..... *viking hat*

[LeFevre]

Originally posted by LillyThePink
Time Cube??

Spammity spam... wonderful spam..... *viking hat*

The Time Cube guy is another wonderful insane person on the web here. (http://www.timecube.com/)

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by LillyThePink
But I AM blaming them for telling outright lies in a propaganda campaign that would have put the Stalinists to shame.

Amen. I'm with you on that one 100%.

I have these nightmares, that the idiots I went to high school with are now running the country.

Everyone makes a few spelling mistakes from time to time. But on a job application, you do everything in your power to avoid them. In that context, mistakes take on new significance.

Likewise, when you testify before the U.N., you ought not to:
1. claim that a tape from OBL is evidence of a link between Iraq and al qaida, when a trancript of the tape explicitly declares Saddam as an enemy of al qaida.
2. claim that satellite photos are of a certain town in Iraq, when they're actually of another town.
3. use a report from a British agency in support of your case, when that report contains plagarized articles from several years ago.

We absolutely ought not tolerate this level of performance from our leaders. Perhaps Powell can't directly be faulted. Perhaps the sloppiness is due to errors made by others. But something is still wrong with a system that lets this stuff get by.

[LillyThePink]

Originally posted by LeFevre


The Time Cube guy is another wonderful insane person on the web here. (http://www.timecube.com/)

oooooooooooooh - lovely! Isn't he good at ad homs? ;)

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by LillyThePink
It amuses me when people claim that Americans can deal with criticism or differences of opinion, when in practise what happens is that one of you always goes "we should just take our ball in, THEN you'd be stuffed"

Yeah, I reckon we would, BUT we wouldn't have to put up with you always telling us how you continue to save the world single-handedly.

Mmmm, sour grapes.

It seems a bit unreasonable to say that America is needed to keep the world safe and promote freedom while simultaneously condemning it for defending the very same actions. I would think that the occassional boast from a proud American would be a small price to pay for the enormous contributions America makes to the oppressed people of the world.

I think psychologists call it an inferiority complex.

[Doubt]

Originally posted by richardm


... Are those allowable under the Geneva Convention?

No, they are not allowed under the Geneva Convention. They are discussed in a sub-section titled "Mimes and other annoying entertainment." People often overlook that one because they think is about Mines instead of Mimes. However, the US is also in violation of this part of the convention because our illegal exporting of Elvis impersonators. We have got to stop the proliferation of bad entertainment. We have also refused to sign the anti-Elvis treaty on the grounds that we need to keep them in Karaoke bars in South Korea.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by LillyThePink
It amuses me when people claim that Americans can deal with criticism or differences of opinion, when in practise what happens is that one of you always goes "we should just take our ball in, THEN you'd be stuffed"

Yeah, I reckon we would, BUT we wouldn't have to put up with you always telling us how you continue to save the world single-handedly.

I somewhat agree with this.

However, there is reasonable balanced criticism from someone like you or Danish Dynamite and there is America is ALWAYS wrong no matter what the facts, people like AUP.

The we saved the world thing is silly, though this is not limited to America. Everyone is a bit provincial...In India I was told India was the height of civilzation and non-Indians like myself must recognize this.

[originalgagster]

Originally posted by tjwojo


enormous contributions America makes to the oppressed people of the world.



For example?

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by originalgagster


For example?
The fall of communism for one, which was in large part due to the U.S. and its military strength.

Unless you're one of those people who thinks communism wasn't really all that bad.

[Kiri]

Originally posted by sundog
Gotcha, didn't I?

I just thought I'd beat the flaming right-wingers to it.

How many DAYS do you think it will be before you start seeing this said seriously, if the Brits pull out of the war? I think many Americans are so crazed with war fever that they'll even see the Brits as the enemy if they pull out.

Hey, I think it's overboard to call THE FRENCH nasty names over this. They were our allies before we even finished our revolution!Am I old-fashioned and naive to think that friendly democracies can agree to disagree in a civil manner?

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Kiri

Hey, I think it's overboard to call THE FRENCH nasty names over this. They were our allies before we even finished our revolution!
If my memory serves me correctly... the people that supported the american revolution were the French monarchy. These same people were eventually killed off in the revolution.

Of course, I'm Canadian, and we have our own reasons to criticize France.

[Kiri]

Originally posted by richardm



Shhh... So far the Americans haven't realised that the reason for luring all their military to the Middle East is so that Britain can sneak back and re-colonise... and with luck, they won't cotton on until it's too late!
(Which is why the French are opposed, of course)

(sings "God Save the Queen" whilst waving a Union Jack)

Welcome to Washington! It was SUPPOSED to be part of British Columbia anyway!!

[originalgagster]

Originally posted by Segnosaur

The fall of communism for one, which was in large part due to the U.S. and its military strength.

Unless you're one of those people who thinks communism wasn't really all that bad.

The US didnt oppose communism from a moral perspective, but from one of economic gain.

As it happens i think it is quite demonstrable that communism does not have to be as evil as many conservatives would brainwash us into believing.

For example, ordinary working people have a better life in Cuba than in almost any capitalist Latin American country.

[Kiri]

Originally posted by Segnosaur

If my memory serves me correctly... the people that supported the american revolution were the French monarchy. These same people were eventually killed off in the revolution.

Of course, I'm Canadian, and we have our own reasons to criticize France.

Correct. They were killed off in a revolution that was in part inspired by OUR revolution.

Life's funny sometimes...

[LillyThePink]

Originally posted by Mike B.


However, there is reasonable balanced criticism from someone like you or Danish Dynamite and there is America is ALWAYS wrong no matter what the facts, people like AUP.


Thank you eternally for this gorgeous compliment :) You have quite made my day!


In reference to your remark about saving the world....to hear some Americans talk you would imagine that WW2 only started when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour - you know it started in 1939, right? Sometimes it gets a little testing when everybody else's contribution is utterly ignored/overlooked/belittled whilst the (seemingly grudging) contributions of the US are lauded. (ad nauseum)

Originally posted by

. I would think that the occassional boast from a proud American would be a small price to pay for the enormous contributions America makes to the oppressed people of the world.

I think psychologists call it an inferiority complex.


Resorting to insulting people and belittling them is part of why Americans are generally disliked - you are perceived as having an (undeserved) superiority complex. A bit like the French, but with sh!tty fast food instead of the great gourmet stuff.

And if it were only the occasional boast, I'd probably think your "enormous contributions" were worthwhile.... but as it stands I find it laughable that you seem to think your government and countrymen have acted in the manner they have for truly altruistic reasons. Your "enormous contributions" are usually made for reasons of self interest and to pretend otherwise is naiive in the extreme. I at least do not try and convince myself that my country has ever acted in the interests of any other state- The social control of your patriotic conditioning precludes you from anything other than a staunch defence of your governments actions, right or wrong.

Lastly, your "enormous contributions" may be so, but are given with so little grace that it *does* make me wnder why you bother at all.... couldn't be the fact that EVERYONE ELSE IS CONTRIBUTING TOO could it? :rolleyes:

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by originalgagster:
The US didnt oppose communism from a moral perspective, but from one of economic gain.

Your evidence for this is?

As it happens i think it is quite demonstrable that communism does not have to be as evil as many conservatives would brainwash us into believing.

Quite right. Stalin never killed tens of millions of his own people and enslaved Eastern Europe. All poor maligned Uncle Joe was trying to do was establish a one world socialist Utopia. The conservatives never let you hear about this though. And all those people who claimed to have suffered through a half century of communism? Actors the lot of them. Some of them starred in the Moon Landing.

The Iron Curtain? That was there to stop the workers paradise being overrun by refugees from the capitalist, liberally democratic Hades.

For example, ordinary working people have a better life in Cuba than in almost any capitalist Latin American country.

Can you back this up?

[richardm]

Originally posted by Shane Costello

Quite right. Stalin never killed tens of millions of his own people and enslaved Eastern Europe. All poor maligned Uncle Joe was trying to do was establish a one world socialist Utopia.


Stalinism != Communism. The communism you saw in the USSR was far from being true Communism; in fact, there are no true Communist countries, never have been, and probably never will be. I'm pretty sure Karl Marx didn't write anything about it being a requirement to kill tens of millions of your own people.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by richardm:
Stalinism != Communism. The communism you saw in the USSR was far from being true Communism; in fact, there are no true Communist countries, never have been, and probably never will be. I'm pretty sure Karl Marx didn't write anything about it being a requirement to kill tens of millions of your own people.

Whatever. When Reagan talked about facing down "The Evil Empire" he was quite correct in his choice of words.

[Troll]

Originally posted by sundog
Gotcha, didn't I?

I just thought I'd beat the flaming right-wingers to it.

How many DAYS do you think it will be before you start seeing this said seriously, if the Brits pull out of the war? I think many Americans are so crazed with war fever that they'll even see the Brits as the enemy if they pull out.

and I think you're a fool for thinking that. Our closest allies are, in reality, the brits, israel, spain, turkey, australia, canada, south korea when they need defending, Japan wen they think we may not care about the Korea's anymore and some third world countries that like what we've done for them. we've already given Blair an easy out with the repeat of the " go it alone" thing after he decided to "come up with" "another proposal". It's way cool of allies to stick with one another, but sometimes you just have to step up and go it alone and acknowledge that your bud offered the assist.

[LillyThePink]

Bush needs Blair to talk to people who would find it ludicrous to discuss world affairs with a trained chimp.

;)

[Troll]

Originally posted by LillyThePink
It amuses me when people claim that Americans can deal with criticism or differences of opinion, when in practise what happens is that one of you always goes "we should just take our ball in, THEN you'd be stuffed"

Yeah, I reckon we would, BUT we wouldn't have to put up with you always telling us how you continue to save the world single-handedly.

One of us? so one of us says that Lassie should be sexed up and then slaughtered for food, and that makes all the people in the US beastiality, anti-humane society carnivores? quite the wrongful generalization you got there. especially coming from someone that lives where another claims that there is such a thing as pure anarchism

[LillyThePink]

Originally posted by Troll


One of us? so one of us says that Lassie should be sexed up and then slaughtered for food, and that makes all the people in the US beastiality, anti-humane society carnivores? quite the wrongful generalization you got there. especially coming from someone that lives where another claims that there is such a thing as pure anarchism

I can't discuss BTK's views with you Troll - I don't know the context or particularly understand the concepts ;)

And no, it's not really one of you. Perhaps I should have stated "one of you in every one of these debates in which I have participated".... so really it's quite a few of you, but usually only one per thread.

For example, the American from this thread, and Que from the other place, would make 2! :D

[Troll]

Originally posted by LillyThePink


I can't discuss BTK's views with you Troll - I don't know the context or particularly understand the concepts ;)

And no, it's not really one of you. Perhaps I should have stated "one of you in every one of these debates in which I have participated".... so really it's quite a few of you, but usually only one per thread.

For example, the American from this thread, and Que from the other place, would make 2! :D

Well yeah you have one type in every forum. But Billy and his admitted "socio-anarchist" views don't necesarrilly equate to your own views as a fellow brit, now do they?

Stereotyping from the minority viewpoint? I thought you were above that.:p

[LillyThePink]

yeah, well, I had to disappoint you sometime. ;)

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by LillyThePink:
Bush needs Blair to talk to people who would find it ludicrous to discuss world affairs with a trained chimp. ;)

I guess Blair has a similar relationship with John Prescott and Claire Short. Oh sorry, you said trained chimp. ;)

[Frank Newgent]

Friend (http://www.smirkingchimp.com/print.php?sid=10553)

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by sundog
What is apparent to me is that British public opinion is terribly important right now. Get out there and hit the streets!

Sundoggy,

Go here (http://www.grouchymedia.com/die_terrorists_die_download.cfm) Click the link that says (small) windows media player...that way it'll stream from the website and you don't have to download....it's a big file.

A present to you and your lefty friends from us warmongers! ;) :D

Enjoy,
-zilla

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Sundoggy,

Go here (http://www.grouchymedia.com/die_terrorists_die_download.cfm) Click the link that says (small) windows media player...that way it'll stream from the website and you don't have to download....it's a big file.

A present to you and your lefty friends from us warmongers! ;) :D

Enjoy,
-zilla

Excuse me for finding that video rather tasteless. Remembered me somhow on the "Wochenschau" the Nazis produced by the hundreds in WWII. Besides, what exactly is the use of the armed forces shown in the video (stealth bombers, aircraft carriers, the whole lot) in killing a few handful of terrorists (die ************ die). It seems UBL is still alive an mobilizing the whole US Army won't get him. So it's not only a tasteless video, it's also stupid.

You really identify with that crap?
How sad :p

Zee

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by LillyThePink
Bush needs Blair to talk to people who would find it ludicrous to discuss world affairs with a trained chimp.
;)
You're assuming a lot.

That Bush is actually a "trained" chimp, and not just one running on instinct.

[LillyThePink]

Originally posted by Segnosaur

You're assuming a lot.

That Bush is actually a "trained" chimp, and not just one running on instinct.

I was being polite ;)

I figured being able to use the potty qualified as "trained" :p

[BillyTK]

I was watching Tony Blair on MTV last night (<;)>he was presenting his top ten dancefloor fillers </;)> and it struck me how much he's starting to look like Margaret Thatcher. Who can forget her partnership with Reagan? And who remembers Reagan's Bedtime for Bonzo (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0043325), in which he starred with a chimp? There's a link in all that somewhere...

Originally posted by rikzilla


Sundoggy,

Go here (http://www.grouchymedia.com/die_terrorists_die_download.cfm) Click the link that says (small) windows media player...that way it'll stream from the website and you don't have to download....it's a big file.

A present to you and your lefty friends from us warmongers! ;) :D

Enjoy,
-zilla

Thanks. Not sure what on Earth it has to do with Iraq, though. Did you watch it closely enough to realize that it's about terrorism, not Iraq, or is it really all the same to you?

I have shot Army promotional videos myself, believe it or not.

I can identify with the emotions in the video. LOTS of us are very frustrated that Bush can't find Bin Laden and is trying to turn everyone's attention elsewhere. Why can't we turn all this excess testosterone towards FINDING BIN LADEN?

You seem not to like the term "warmonger". By the dictionary definition, that's exactly what you are, so deal with it.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by sundog


Thanks. Not sure what on Earth it has to do with Iraq, though. Did you watch it closely enough to realize that it's about terrorism, not Iraq, or is it really all the same to you?

I have shot Army promotional videos myself, believe it or not.

I can identify with the emotions in the video. LOTS of us are very frustrated that Bush can't find Bin Laden and is trying to turn everyone's attention elsewhere. Why can't we turn all this excess testosterone towards FINDING BIN LADEN?

You seem not to like the term "warmonger". By the dictionary definition, that's exactly what you are, so deal with it.

War is like anything else Sundog. It can be good or bad. Just or un-just. War is objective and empirical...however our perception of good or bad, just or un-just is purely subjective.

Being a warmonger is not a bad thing. American warmongers, if listened to, could have gone to the UK's aid early enough to limit the scope of Hitler's attrocities in WWII. Instead, American isolationists and pacifists held the US back until such time as a global world war threatened us directly. Therefore, being completely logical, we can see that being a peacenik is not an automatically good thing.

Militant Islam is a direct threat to our society (see 9/11)...wiping out that threat is not only good for the continued growth and health of our society....it is our moral duty to do so. Our society is more highly evolved than theirs is. Were they to succeed in destroying it, it would plunge the world into another dark age of repression and anti-science. Just as it is the moral duty of the doctor to kill the germ which threatens the health of the patient, it is our moral duty to the human race to eliminate this threat and bring a more enlightened form of society to these peoples.

So yes,...we didn't start this WOT, but we will finish it and militant Islam. I am proud to be a warmonger in this context.

-zilla

Originally posted by rikzilla


War is like anything else Sundog. It can be good or bad.

So yes,...we didn't start this WOT, but we will finish it and militant Islam. I am proud to be a warmonger in this context.

-zilla

Rik...

I apologize for interrupting your sermon, but we are talking about IRAQ. Hello?

Can you really not differentiate between the two situations?

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by sundog


Rik...

I apologize for interrupting your sermon, but we are talking about IRAQ. Hello?

Can you really not differentiate between the two situations?

Terrorism is not some existential thing that exists in some vacuum outside of all support. The invasion of Iraq is not about oil, or humanitarianism. It's about national security and the WOT. If it were not for 9/11 it wouldn't even be happening.

If need be I will repost this for you when you start complaining that the coming invasion of Iran has nothing to do with Bin Laden.

-zilla

Originally posted by rikzilla


Terrorism is not some existential thing that exists in some vacuum outside of all support. The invasion of Iraq is not about oil, or humanitarianism. It's about national security and the WOT. If it were not for 9/11 it wouldn't even be happening.

If need be I will repost this for you when you start complaining that the coming invasion of Iran has nothing to do with Bin Laden.

-zilla

Oh, don't worry about quoting. People will probably be quoting that post for weeks as the most incredibly lame "excuse" for war yet.

Unbelievable. So to you, it's just a lot of brown-skinned people over there who need to be dead, and we'll justify it by citing the World Trade Center bombing.

I note that you are already calling for war on Iran. I don't think even JK has done that yet. Welcome to the forefront of the right wing. You are unquestionably the most extreme rightist on the system now. Are you proud?

I'm sorry Rik, but this ends any respect I might have had for your opinions.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by sundog


Oh, don't worry about quoting. People will probably be quoting that post for weeks as the most incredibly lame "excuse" for war yet.

Unbelievable. So to you, it's just a lot of brown-skinned people over there who need to be dead, and we'll justify it by citing the World Trade Center bombing.

I note that you are already calling for war on Iran. I don't think even JK has done that yet. Welcome to the forefront of the right wing. You are unquestionably the most extreme rightist on the system now. Are you proud?

I'm sorry Rik, but this ends any respect I might have had for your opinions.

Oh...gee...and you had such respect for me before! ;) Now I'm really hurt...crushed even! :rolleyes:

Listen, "brownskinned people", is your term...not mine. Another liberal tactic: unlimber the big gun of racism and point it at anyone that they disagree with.

Terrorists who hijack planes and fly them into buildings can be whatever color you like. That's totally beside the point. If a bunch of white europeans had done it those 3,000 people would still be just as dead. Our society would be just as harmed. We would be just as justified in hunting them down and killing them while invading any lawless nation that supported them.

I would heartily cheer while black or hispanic American troops marched in to kill white europeans who threatened our free society in such a manner. The racism you hinted at actually sticks alot better to the pacifists than it does to guys like me. Why was it right to bomb Serbia into submission? Was it because these people being killed and oppressed were white euros themselves??

-zilla

Originally posted by rikzilla


Oh...gee...and you had such respect for me before! ;) Now I'm really hurt...crushed even! :rolleyes:



I did actually think that underneath all the terrified rightwing BS you spout, there were signs of a reasonable human being underneath. I am abandoning that hope and placing you on ignore, simply because you have shown that discussion with you is completely fruitless. You are the very portrait of the Ugly American.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by sundog


Oh, don't worry about quoting. People will probably be quoting that post for weeks as the most incredibly lame "excuse" for war yet.

And here's my current fave collection of incredibly lame excuses for war:

1 George Michael's anti-war dirge is the worst thing he's ever done and if it gets more publicity/success we might never again see the disco genius behind tracks like Outside and Fastlove. (ps stop smoking the weed, George)

2. All those smart bombs look good on TV.

3. Sigue Sigue Sputnik will re-release Love Missile F1-11 when war with Iraq starts. See what SSS look like now:
http://www.sputnikworld.com/

4. It'll p!ss off Bono.

(Courtesy of Popbitch (www.popbitch.com))

And if My Little Tony had use these reasons for attacking Iraq, he'd get my support!

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by sundog


I did actually think that underneath all the terrified rightwing BS you spout, there were signs of a reasonable human being underneath. I am abandoning that hope and placing you on ignore, simply because you have shown that discussion with you is completely fruitless. You are the very portrait of the Ugly American.

...and so Sundog rides off into the sunset after flinging a final ad-hom. Via con dios amigo.

If the UN you so adore adopted your debating style of "cut-and-run" the war would already be over!

-zilla :p

Well, now that we're rid of the troll, let's get back to it.

Any good Brit jokes? How about: The Brits are undernourished, undersexed, and under the illusion that they're still a world power.

Or this one my dad told me: Some Brits and American GI's were standing at a row of urinals. A GI zipped up and started to walk out, when a Brit sniffed, "In England they teach us to wash our hands afterwards."

The American says, "In America, they teach us not to piss on our hands."

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by sundog
Or this one my dad told me: Some Brits and American GI's were standing at a row of urinals. A GI zipped up and started to walk out, when a Brit sniffed, "In England they teach us to wash our hands afterwards."

The American says, "In America, they teach us not to piss on our hands."

Can't be. American restrooms even have signs saying "Employees are required to wash hands after using the lavatory"

Schtonk

Zee

[originalgagster]

Originally posted by Shane Costello

Your evidence for this is?

You only have to make some simple observations to see the US were not acting out of a moral principle during the cold war. For example the utter destruction wreaked in Vietnam, propping up of disgusting fascists throughout Latin America (Honduras, Chile, Guatemala, Brazil, Panama etc etc) as an apparent defense against communism. In fact I’m struggling to think of a single just war fought by the US during that period, although I’m sure someone can correct me.

Originally posted by Shane Costello
...stalin...gulags....30 000 000 .....atrocities...famine...etc etc etc....

Well of course I never reckoned with this response.:rolleyes:

Come on guy, you know perfectly well none of what you say here is incompatible with my original point – that communism doesn’t have to be as bad as conservatives would have everyone believe.

Communist China has far better standard of life indicators than capitalist India, even though 50 years ago both countries were similar in this regard.
Communist Russia was more prosperous and had a higher quality of life than post-Gorbachev Russia. I’m not saying communism is a fine political system, but nor am I blind to the shortcomings of rampant capitalism as some on this forum seem to be.

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Can you back this up?

You only have to look at simple indicators of quality of life. For example Cuba has the greatest life expectancy in the whole of Latin America.
Has a lower infant mortality rate than even the United States ( US infant mortality: 7 deaths per 1000 live births Cuban Infant mortality rate 6.2 deaths per 1000 live births ).

The literacy rate in Cuba is 95.7%. This compares to e.g. Bolivia 83.1%, Guatemala 55.6%, Mexico 89.6%, and Venezuela 91.1%. I couldn’t find a single Latin American country with a higher literacy rate than Cuba.
Here are some links, I can easily supply more.

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=2553

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1739773.stm

http://www.medicc.org/Medicc%20Review/II/heart/html/health_news_from_cuba.html

http://www.zmag.org/LAM/zlabasics.html

Originally posted by ZeeGerman


Can't be. American restrooms even have signs saying "Employees are required to wash hands after using the lavatory"

Schtonk

Zee

Lavatory? What's that? Some pinko crypto-Communist leftist flaming liberal totalitarian conspiracy word for "toilet"?

:D

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by sundog


Lavatory? What's that? Some pinko crypto-Communist leftist flaming liberal totalitarian conspiracy word for "toilet"?

:D

Yeah, i know my English is spoiled. have been under the influence of the leftist liberal feminazi indoctrination of US universities too long- God forbid, one of them was Berkeley, the cradle of all leftism in the US.

:D

Zee

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by originalgagster


You only have to make some simple observations to see the US were not acting out of a moral principle during the cold war. For example the utter destruction wreaked in Vietnam, propping up of disgusting fascists throughout Latin America (Honduras, Chile, Guatemala, Brazil, Panama etc etc) as an apparent defense against communism. In fact I’m struggling to think of a single just war fought by the US during that period, although I’m sure someone can correct me.



Well of course I never reckoned with this response.:rolleyes:

Come on guy, you know perfectly well none of what you say here is incompatible with my original point – that communism doesn’t have to be as bad as conservatives would have everyone believe.

Communist China has far better standard of life indicators than capitalist India, even though 50 years ago both countries were similar in this regard.
Communist Russia was more prosperous and had a higher quality of life than post-Gorbachev Russia. I’m not saying communism is a fine political system, but nor am I blind to the shortcomings of rampant capitalism as some on this forum seem to be.



You only have to look at simple indicators of quality of life. For example Cuba has the greatest life expectancy in the whole of Latin America.
Has a lower infant mortality rate than even the United States ( US infant mortality: 7 deaths per 1000 live births Cuban Infant mortality rate 6.2 deaths per 1000 live births ).

The literacy rate in Cuba is 95.7%. This compares to e.g. Bolivia 83.1%, Guatemala 55.6%, Mexico 89.6%, and Venezuela 91.1%. I couldn’t find a single Latin American country with a higher literacy rate than Cuba.
Here are some links, I can easily supply more.

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=2553

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1739773.stm

http://www.medicc.org/Medicc%20Review/II/heart/html/health_news_from_cuba.html

http://www.zmag.org/LAM/zlabasics.html

I am not writing this to argue that US actions are morally defendable in every circumstance...there is a lot of bad history there, no doubt.

However, basically, the upshot of your post is that the end -- literacy, high birth rates -- justifies the means. That, for example, the millions killed by Mao, and the distruction of the Cultural Revolution, are justified because today (after reversing many of its policies) Some parts of China has a higher standard of living than "capitalist" India?

BTW, "Capitalist" India? Not many people, even Indians would agree that describes the Indian economy today, or over the period you are describing.

But, more importantly, it seems to me that you are essentially arguing that countries like Cuba, China, etc. can't achieve higher literacy, better healthcare, greater economic security for its people without imposing single-party dictatorships on the polical structure, jailing and crushing criticism, expelling dissenters, eliminating free speech -- creating conditions where millions seek to escape the system imposed (Miami is teaming with people who disagreed with Castro and, without any real say, were eliminated from the system).

In the end, as bad as the US has acted, I would stack the body count of the immoral west against the benevolent, social progressives in China, Vietnam, Cuba, etc. any day...because if you can't achieve progress without murdering and starving millions of people, it is a pretty sad society you are building.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman


Excuse me for finding that video rather tasteless. Remembered me somhow on the "Wochenschau" the Nazis produced by the hundreds in WWII. Besides, what exactly is the use of the armed forces shown in the video (stealth bombers, aircraft carriers, the whole lot) in killing a few handful of terrorists (die ************ die). It seems UBL is still alive an mobilizing the whole US Army won't get him. So it's not only a tasteless video, it's also stupid.

You really identify with that crap?
How sad :p

Zee

Sure I identify with it. The men in that video are wearing the same uniform that I wore when I stood at the Fulda pass and faced down the East German and Russian soldiers who would have annexed you and yours into their worker's paradise had I and mine not been there to stop them.

Had the Warsaw pact come thru the Fulda pass it would not have been Germans dying to save W. Germany. It would have been the men of the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. How soon you forget.

Rik, we're having a discussion here. Take your testosterone and your troll movies to another thread, please.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Sure I identify with it. The men in that video are wearing the same uniform that I wore when I stood at the Fulda pass and faced down the East German and Russian soldiers who would have annexed you and yours into their worker's paradise had I and mine not been there to stop them.

Had the Warsaw pact come thru the Fulda pass it would not have been Germans dying to save W. Germany. It would have been the men of the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. How soon you forget.
Boy oh Boy, Rik what's wrong with you?
You used to contribute quite a lot of reasonable stuff to this forum. But since you joined the JK Fan Club you seem to have lost the ability to focus on a topic and to maintain a certain level of accountability. You sure JK didn't put a little something in your beer?

:rolleyes:

Zee

[Shane Costello]

originally posted by originalgagster:
Come on guy, you know perfectly well none of what you say here is incompatible with my original point – that communism doesn’t have to be as bad as conservatives would have everyone believe.

The fact is that communism (or whatever passed for it) in practice was every bit as bad as conservatives claimed it was. That it doesn't have to be in theory isn't demonstrable.

You only have to make some simple observations to see the US were not acting out of a moral principle during the cold war. For example the utter destruction wreaked in Vietnam, propping up of disgusting fascists throughout Latin America (Honduras, Chile, Guatemala, Brazil, Panama etc etc) as an apparent defense against communism. In fact I’m struggling to think of a single just war fought by the US during that period, although I’m sure someone can correct me.

What country doesn't act out of a very large degree of self interest? Are the French and Germans currently threatening to use their veto on the UN security council out of concern for the Iraqi people?

What foreign policy path should the US have followed during the cold war? Should dodgy regimes have been left well alone to be replaced by even dodgier marxist regimes and the spread of communism left unchecked?

Communist China has far better standard of life indicators than capitalist India, even though 50 years ago both countries were similar in this regard.

Don't forget the havoc wrought by Mao's "Great Leap Forward".

India has been anything but a capitalist state. Nehru, it's first president, was heavily influenced by left wing, statist, ideaology he acquired at Oxford. IIRC this has been the case in most former colonies of the British Empire.

Communist Russia was more prosperous and had a higher quality of life than post-Gorbachev Russia. I’m not saying communism is a fine political system, but nor am I blind to the shortcomings of rampant capitalism as some on this forum seem to be.

And you fail to see the link between seventy years of communism and the present malodorous state of Russia?

Shortcomings of rampant capitalism? Sure there are shortcomigs, but you could also argue about the shortcomings of rampant democracy, as Fidel Castro is wont to do.

A better comparison to make would be between the countries of central Europe on either side of what was the Iron Curtain. Compare the Czech Republic with Austria. Before Communism both had comparable standards of living and industrial progress. Compare them now after the Czech's 50 years under communism.