Religion - Let it be?

[American]

Although I'm an athiest, I also recognise that I'm gonna die someday, and those final hours may be fearful. I can only look forward to the comfort of prayer.

So what do I do? This is just nuts. I have no faith, except when I'm scared or in physical pain. Then you'd think I'm a priest or something.

Any advice? I'm practically a hypocrite.

I only attack religion when its damage is glaring and obvious. I have a tendency to let innocuous faith just be, without challenging what I know is total BS.

So how 'bout it? Do we allow lies to thrive if they actually do good for people? I'm looking beyond the "opiate for the masses" crap. I'm more interested in individual examples of faith.

No way could I tell an old person "there's no God." It's just cruel. It's like picking a random person and berating their problems. "Hey, you're fat." Yeah, thanks for the helpful observation, dickweed. Thanks alot.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by American
Although I'm an athiest, I also recognise that I'm gonna die someday, and those final hours may be fearful. I can only look forward to the comfort of prayer.

Then you aren't an atheist. One doesn't pray to something they don't believe in.

So what do I do? This is just nuts. I have no faith, except when I'm scared or in physical pain. Then you'd think I'm a priest or something.

No, you are a believer but you realize your belief is silly. You can overcome your beliefs by doing lots of research into religion. Start with your native religion.

So how 'bout it? Do we allow lies to thrive if they actually do good for people? I'm looking beyond the "opiate for the masses" crap. I'm more interested in individual examples of faith.

What good does religion do that cannot be done by secular means? If something can be done without the lie, then is it "good"?

No way could I tell an old person "there's no God." It's just cruel.

So don't, but if that old feller starts to preach, you can either ignore him, agree with him or disagree with him. I'm the type that would tell him his god beliefs are absurd.

It's like picking a random person and berating their problems. "Hey, you're fat." Yeah, thanks for the helpful observation, dickweed. Thanks alot.

Atheists don't have to go around telling people there is no god. I don't tell people they are fat unless they ask me and they are.

[American]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Atheists don't have to go around telling people there is no god. I don't tell people they are fat unless they ask me and they are.

True. But what about exerting your influence? I don't "tell people what to think", but it would be nice if they were all just like me. All athiests, destined to grovel pathetically in the last few minuntes of life and beg God for His mercy.

----
So what do I do? This is just nuts. I have no faith, except when I'm scared or in physical pain. Then you'd think I'm a priest or something.

Any advice? I'm practically a hypocrite.
----


Hi American,

I know I'm going against some of the dictionary-humpers on this board when I say this, but don't worry about the terms atheist and theist too much. They are just words and can't accurately describe how you feel. And no, I don't think it is nuts. It is a perfectly normal feeling.

I'd read about all the religions you can (and do NOT just limit yourself to Christianity, Judiasm and Islam, which is what most athiests do in their research). Read up on as many religions you can get your hands on.

I'd also read real books instead of the Internet. I've found the Internet tends to have extremely biased and inaccurate information on religion and related issues, in general.
(basically because everyone is pushing ther own agenda, theists and atheists).

I'd also look into the reasons why you are scared exactly. That could shed light on whether there is some way you can overcome (not overcome like defeat, but overcome like 'understand and cope with') those feelings. -Perhaps learning a martial art, or various psychological methods and techniques for working with stress.

If you are interested in being 'spiritual' (for lack of a better word), then you may want to investigate religions/philosophies like forms of Buddhism, forms of Taoism, forms of Shinto, and many others.

[Fade]

I don't go around telling people there is no god, why should I? It doesn't serve me in any fashion, and can ruffle feathers unintentionally.

When confronted with immense physical pain, I have never felt the need to look to something "out there" to comfort me. Instead, I reached out to my friends and family. Or, barring that, I forced myself to bear it out alone. There is nothing magical or mystical about this world, nothing. People that count on there being something out there always end up disappointed in the end. Eventually, you reach out, and there's nothing there. That sort of let down isn't worth years of belief.

----
I don't go around telling people there is no god, why should I? It doesn't serve me in any fashion, and can ruffle feathers unintentionally.

When confronted with immense physical pain, I have never felt the need to look to something "out there" to comfort me. Instead, I reached out to my friends and family. Or, barring that, I forced myself to bear it out alone. There is nothing magical or mystical about this world, nothing.
----


It appears you do go around telling people there is no god(s).
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[MRC_Hans]

American: Basically, I dont think you are an atheist. You believe there is some God out there. This doesnt mean you have to show up in churches and chant prayers, if there is a God, he is everywhere, not just in the church. And its not God that needs you to pray, he'll know what you want and what to do about it (if anything).

In my opinion, it doesn't matter what you call your God, it's what you do in the name of your God that matters.

(Note: God may be female, in which case replace all the "he" in the text above with "she")

Hans

(edited to correct typo)

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by American
I don't "tell people what to think", but it would be nice if they were all just like me. All athiests, destined to grovel pathetically in the last few minuntes of life and beg God for His mercy. Paging Jedi Kuh-niggit.

[Fade]

Originally posted by Whodini
----
I don't go around telling people there is no god, why should I? It doesn't serve me in any fashion, and can ruffle feathers unintentionally.

When confronted with immense physical pain, I have never felt the need to look to something "out there" to comfort me. Instead, I reached out to my friends and family. Or, barring that, I forced myself to bear it out alone. There is nothing magical or mystical about this world, nothing.
----


It appears you do go around telling people there is no god(s).
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


I appreciate your effort to troll and bait me, but they won't work, honey bunches. *giggle*

[Gregor]

Thank you for reminding me of what I believe is the biggest shortcoming of the major religions.

The "Fear Factor" that Xianity and Islam is based upon is reprehensible. What 12-year old kid is not going to accept Jesus when the preacher says (as he does every week), "If you were to die tomorrow, would you be in paradise or roast in hell for eternity?"

When you add a society in favor of religion to the "authority" figure of an Imam or Pastor (he must know more than me, he's spent his life studying this stuff), the threat of eternal punishment is difficult for adults to overcome, let alone young people.

Whether you call it by its benign name - Pascal's wager (if you're wrong you lose nothing if you're right you spent eternity in heaven) or call it by a harsher name - the threat of a vengeful god, punishment stick is outrageous in the extreme. For a religion to prey upon everyone's major fear - fear of the unknown - to win converts is wrong.

I have two conflicting ideas on the eternal punishment question.

1. THE BIG LIE. There is no eternal punishment, and it's all a psychological hoax. Xianity, Judaism, and Islam intentionally adopted this tenet to increase membership and justify their persecution complex ("those infidels will get there's, and for an eternity to boot!").

2. THE BIG VENGEFUL GUY. There is eternal punishment, and only those who happen to believe the right particular flavor of a religion will escape it. We can't know whether Baptists, Catholics, Jews, or Islamists are correct, so a damn big percentage of people are going to roast. How could any conception of a vengeful God be worshiped when the risk is extraordinarily great and the punishment is extraordinarily horrible. Ask a Baptist whether he really can accept that God will torture Jews forever for not believing in Jesus, when the evidence of his existence, let alone divinity, is so questionable.

[WARNING: Baseless guess ahead] American: you started this thread honestly pointing out that your insecurities make you occasionally pray or think of praying. I submit that if you poll church attenders on a Sunday morning and really got them to justify why they believe in God (not attend church, as that has a social impact), the following would be a reasonably expected result:

10% don't believe, attending for spouse or kids
20% read the Bible, accept as true despite no personal evidence of God
20% accept Bible, believe they have personal, miraculous evidence of God
50% question Bible's truth, have no personal miracles, believe solely because they are worried about this whole threat of eternal punishment thing

[MRC_Hans]

I suppose there could be a third option:

3) Benevolent God. Reward is admonished to all who have behaved well under the circumstances given to them. Only those who have done bad things in spite of the opportunity to do better go to hell. Obviously this implies that it doesnt matter which brand of God you worship, or any at all.

Hans

[mindless]

hypotheticaly lets say you had only a few hours to live, and in that moment of weakness you renounced your athiesim and prayed your hardest ever, would that make you religious?

I dont think so, your just trying to grasp onto whatever life line you can to prevent the inevitability of your destruction.

"When logic and life fails you there is only hope left in the unknown"

certainly there is alot of pascals wagering going on, no one wants to bet on a horse thats not going to finish the race as a winner.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by American


True. But what about exerting your influence? I don't "tell people what to think", but it would be nice if they were all just like me. All athiests, destined to grovel pathetically in the last few minuntes of life and beg God for His mercy.


You haven't described an Atheist, regardless of what someone chooses to call themself.

Millions of Christians do not come close to emulating (the supposed teachings of) the name they embrace.

What's in a name?

Their are Atheists who wish to force their agenda on others. I would suggest they are a minority, as in most special interest groups..

I take this as an appropriate time to repeat one of my favorite tennants:

"If religious practices disappeared, so would Atheists. However, the opposite would not be true."

[Keneke]

Although I'm an athiest, I also recognise that I'm gonna die someday, and those final hours may be fearful. I can only look forward to the comfort of prayer.
I go through the same thing. My thread "What God means to me" provides a good explanation fo why I think that is.

So how 'bout it? Do we allow lies to thrive if they actually do good for people? I'm looking beyond the "opiate for the masses" crap. I'm more interested in individual examples of faith.

I'd say yes. Doesn't a positive attitude help in health? Stress can cause ulcers, this I know, and maybe even more. Religion can be a balm to soothe a conscience, and therefore that person's (and everyone around him) quality of life improves.

What good does religion do that cannot be done by secular means?

Provide easily digestible hope that does not require intelligence or strength of will. However, if someone thinks that always telling the truth is more important than quality of life, then the opposite is true.

If something can be done without the lie, then is it "good"?
To be frank, what do atheists have to overcome the fear of the ultimate unknown, death? Nothing they or I can come up with can compete with the thrilling tale of life without end.

On a side note, I think that religion did not come in and take advantage of people's fear of death. I think religions developed as each society's perfect solution to that fear.

So don't, but if that old feller starts to preach, you can either ignore him, agree with him or disagree with him. I'm the type that would tell him his god beliefs are absurd.

Again, it's a matter of what you value more: truth or kindness. Note that this differs from days past, where you had to choose between truth or heretic burning. It's a much more difficult choice, now.

Eventually, you reach out, and there's nothing there. That sort of let down isn't worth years of belief.

But the ease of intellectual and moral burden can be worth it. Not to me or to us, but to most people.

The "Fear Factor" that Xianity and Islam is based upon is reprehensible.
For a religion to prey upon everyone's major fear - fear of the unknown - to win converts is wrong.

See my above statements. I posit that fear creates religion, not religion creates fear. A certain belief system might evangelize to keep it's version of things alive, but the need for an explanation is always going to be there. Religion may be reprehensible, but something of that nature will always be there for those who do not have the will or intelligence to own up to the truth.

[Upchurch]

For the most part, I respect other people's religious beliefs and keep my opinions to myself. There are three exceptions to this rule:

1. When people come to my door to discuss their religion with me (e.g. Jahova's Witnesses), I have no problem explaining why don't share their beliefs. Usually, the strength of my arguments are in direct proportion to how hard they push.
2. When people distort science (specifically physics, which is what my degree is in) to their religious needs, I feel an obligated to correct factual errors.
3. When someone tells me I am a bad person or pushes generalizations on to me because of my lack of belief in their god, I feel no need to respect their beliefs.

I don't think any of these are unreasonable. If I seem like a "pusher" of atheism, it's probably because a lot of arguments fall under one of the last two points.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Personally, I have a hard time imagining an afterlife that would not become boring after a few thousand years.

----
I appreciate your effort to troll and bait me, but they won't work, honey bunches. *giggle*
----


Right Fade, it won't work...

Obviously you'd never respond to me...

:rolleyes:

[Franko]

American

Although I'm an athiest, I also recognise that I'm gonna die someday, and those final hours may be fearful. I can only look forward to the comfort of prayer.

So what do I do? This is just nuts. I have no faith, except when I'm scared or in physical pain. Then you'd think I'm a priest or something.

Any advice? I'm practically a hypocrite.

Start calling yourself Agnostic (God/afterlife = Unknown [just like the invisible dragon in my garage])

You'll sleep better at night, God will sleep better at night, and theist everywhere will sleep better at night.

... and who knows ... one day you may just find out that you were wrong, and you really are an immortal ... ;)

[DialecticMaterialist]

I'd somewhat agree and am against inapropriate preaching or arguments at say like: parties and such unless the Xian speaks first.

However, memes either spread and excert their influence or they die in impotence(Just look at the success of missionary vs non-missionary religions). I value my beliefs and values and thus try to spread them. Thus the issue is how do we spread our memes, keep our ideas and values alive/attempt to make influential while avoiding fanaticism,dogmatism and closed mindedness? And the answer is as often: its not a cut and dry issue but one of approximation.

[Franko]

However, memes either spread and excert their influence or they die in impotence(Just look at the success of missionary vs non-missionary religions). I value my beliefs and values and thus try to spread them. Thus the issue is how do we spread our memes, keep our ideas and values alive/attempt to make influential while avoiding fanaticism,dogmatism and closed mindedness? And the answer is as often: its not a cut and dry issue but one of approximation.

What makes you believe this process couldn't be made systematic and entirely logical, thus freeing it from fanaticism, dogmatism, and close-mindedness?

Maybe it's just a matter of Time?

[c4ts]

Originally posted by American
Although I'm an athiest, I also recognise that I'm gonna die someday, and those final hours may be fearful. I can only look forward to the comfort of prayer.

So what do I do? This is just nuts. I have no faith, except when I'm scared or in physical pain. Then you'd think I'm a priest or something.

Well, everybody's gonna die eventually! But whoever said that the soul cannot exist (or that it cannot be immortal) if God cannot exist? People who use the same association between God and the world, but add a bunch of details to "soul" that make less sense than before (for example, that the soul will, for no apparent reason, retain enough of the body's senses to feel pleasure and pain without a body). So the possibility of your soul (if it does exist) "going" somewhere after you die (for example, going through a great metaphysical meat grinder before it gets spat out somewhere else... or into someone else) is not made any less probable. Another idea of death is something along the lines of the state of oblivion you were in before you existed. Try to live a long, healthy, and fulfilling life, because by the time you've had enough, even total and incomprenhisible oblivion will be a kind of relief, also known as "resting in peace."