Haarp attacks!

[IndridCold]

A friend of mine is coming to me with his youtube videos blaming some disasters on the HAARP telling me it is Nicola Tesla's death ray and that it's going to split the Earth.
The only time before that I had heard of this contraption was on CT with Jesse Ventura, which I can't take seriously anyways. But he says it does just about everything. Changing weather, mind control, straight up killing people, you name it, right?

So anyways, can someone with a better understanding of the HAARP tell me what it actually does without telling me it's out to kill me?

[defaultdotxbe]

ill admit i dont know much about it myself, but the wiki article seems a good starting point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haarp

[SpringHallConvert]

Just ask the U.S. government what it does, because you can be certain that they will tell you the truth. The government always tells the truth.

[IndridCold]

It has it's own website.
People like to say it's 'top secret', but it has it's own website full of info.
http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

And I've read something like "not intended for military use", which to me almost sounds like it could be. And if so, what could it do?

Basically this is my understanding of it...
Big antenna array, pumps high energy, intended to research ionosphere, ?????, people say it is weapon.

[dafydd]

It has it's own website.
People like to say it's 'top secret', but it has it's own website full of info.
http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

And I've read something like "not intended for military use", which to me almost sounds like it could be. And if so, what could it do?

Basically this is my understanding of it...
Big antenna array, pumps high energy, intended to research ionosphere, ?????, people say it is weapon.

Ignorant people, and they are wrong.

[dafydd]

A friend of mine is coming to me with his youtube videos blaming some disasters on the HAARP telling me it is Nicola Tesla's death ray and that it's going to split the Earth.
The only time before that I had heard of this contraption was on CT with Jesse Ventura, which I can't take seriously anyways. But he says it does just about everything. Changing weather, mind control, straight up killing people, you name it, right?

So anyways, can someone with a better understanding of the HAARP tell me what it actually does without telling me it's out to kill me?

Perhaps your friend needs medication?

[sts60]

It pumps RF energy into a patch of the ionosphere. It's good for studying some of the ionospheric behaviors and effects on radio propagation, and thus has military as well as civilian applications in communications.

The daily variation in energy received from the Sun by the ionosphere dwarfs the maximum energy HAARP can put out. HAARP isn't a weapon, and it can't do the crazy things ascribed to it by ignorant and/or deluded people.

But because it's got a neat acronym, and people generally don't understand what it does, and because it's off the beaten path, it's a great favorite of conspiracy theorists. Mind control, causing earthquakes, shooting down space shuttles, you name it - some idiot thinks HAARP can do it. No job too big or too small.

I read an article in the Anchorage Daily News some years back, describing an open house held at HAARP. There were conspiracy nuts wandering around inside the facility, fuming at how the eeevil gummint was hiding The Awful Truth from them, much to the bemusement of facility personnel.

[SpringHallConvert]

HAARP isn't a weapon, and it can't do the crazy things ascribed to it by ignorant and/or deluded people.

How do you really know?

I read an article in the Anchorage Daily News some years back, describing an open house held at HAARP. There were conspiracy nuts wandering around inside the facility, fuming at how the eeevil gummint was hiding The Awful Truth from them, much to the bemusement of facility personnel.

Right, because as we all know, the government has never hid The Awful Truth from the people.

[JayUtah]

How do you really know?

Because some people know how to do science.

[SpringHallConvert]

Because some people know how to do science.

You mean, some people claim to know how to do science. But that doesn't really answer my question about HAARP.

So, again, how do you guys really know what HAARP can do and what it's capabilities are? How do you really know what it's intended purpose is? Because the government told you so?

And that's credible how?

[JayUtah]

You mean, some people claim to know how to do science.

No, that's not what I mean.

[dudalb]

Not that all the scientific evidence on planet Earth would cause SHC to admit that one of his conspiracy theories was wrong........

[SpringHallConvert]

No, that's not what I mean.

Maybe you can stop tap dancing around to answer the following questions:

So, again, how do you guys really know what HAARP can do and what it's capabilities are? How do you really know what it's intended purpose is? Because the government told you so?

And that's credible how?

[SpringHallConvert]

Not that all the scientific evidence on planet Earth would cause SHC to admit that one of his conspiracy theories was wrong........

How will any of that help you know what HAARP's capabilities truly are and what its intended purpose is?

Does scientific evidence somehow aid you in your wishful thinking endeavors?

[JayUtah]

Maybe you can stop tap dancing around...

Maybe you can stop trying to put words in my mouth. I gave you my answer. You're now just trying to handwave some vague doubt.

Don't like my answer? Get a degree.

[SUSpilot]

Maybe you can stop tap dancing around to answer the following questions:

So, again, how do you guys really know what HAARP can do and what it's capabilities are? How do you really know what it's intended purpose is? Because the government told you so?

And that's credible how?

Ok, let's do this a different way: what do you think it's for?

[SpringHallConvert]

Maybe you can stop trying to put words in my mouth. I gave you my answer. You're now just trying to handwave some vague doubt.

Don't like my answer? Get a degree.

Since you're being so positively cryptic in your responses, let me see if I understand this using some of your own words...

"Because some people know how to do science", as you responded earlier, that must necessarily mean they know exactly what the government's capabilities and intent are with regard to a government-funded scientific effort such as HAARP?

How, pray tell? How does a degree in a scientific field inform you about government capabilities or intentions? Does a degree provide you with E.S.P., or something?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Ok, let's do this a different way: what do you think it's for?


Jesus Christ... Don't encourage him.

[JayUtah]

How will any of that help you know what HAARP's capabilities truly are and what its intended purpose is?

Straw man. Science helps us evaluate the validity and credibility of various conspiracy theories regarding HAARP.

Does scientific evidence somehow aid you in your wishful thinking endeavors?

Science provides a reliable, testable, and predictive framework for understanding the behavior of the physical world. As such it provides a yardstick against which to evaluate claims made about the behavior of the physical world.

I don't know what else you're babbling about.

[SpringHallConvert]

Ok, let's do this a different way: what do you think it's for?

I don't know, but I don't and wouldn't in the future rule out the possibility that it could be used as a weapon for nefarious purposes.

[JayUtah]

Since you're being so positively cryptic in your responses...

I'm simply avoiding your blatant attempts at straw-man arguments.

"Because some people know how to do science", as you responded earlier, that must necessarily mean...

More attempts to put words in my mouth. Please address the arguments I make, not the ones you wish I had.

[SpringHallConvert]

Straw man. Science helps us evaluate the validity and credibility of various conspiracy theories regarding HAARP.

How can you determine whether or not HAARP is or could be used as a weapon? Simply declaring that you or somebody else knows how to do science isn't an answer to that question.

Science provides a reliable, testable, and predictive framework for understanding the behavior of the physical world. As such it provides a yardstick against which to evaluate claims made about the behavior of the physical world.

I don't know what else you're babbling about.

How can science inform you of whether or not HAARP is a weapon?

[JayUtah]

I don't know...

Do you know what its stated purpose is? Can you explain in your own words how it is purported to work?

I don't ... rule out the possibility that it could be used as a weapon for nefarious purposes.

Too vague. There are specific conspiracy theories that claim HAARP is being or has been used for specific purposes. Can you comment on those, please?

[JayUtah]

How can science inform you of whether or not HAARP is a weapon?

By providing us with a reliable, tested framework for evaluating specific claims of its alleged use.

[Horatius]

But he says it does just about everything. Changing weather, mind control, straight up killing people, you name it, right?


No, that's the Swiss Army HAARP he's thinking of.

[SpringHallConvert]

Do you know what its stated purpose is? Can you explain in your own words how it is purported to work?

Sure, I can look at the HAARP website and regurgitate what they claim HAARP's purpose is and how it works, but what's the point? They could be lying just as easily as they could be telling the truth.

Too vague. There are specific conspiracy theories that claim HAARP is being or has been used for specific purposes. Can you comment on those, please?

Why? What purpose would that serve? There could be a thousand different conspiracy theories surrounding HAARP? Why would I care to comment on them?

[SpringHallConvert]

By providing us with a reliable, tested framework for evaluating specific claims of its alleged use.

How are you going to reliably test these claims and evaluate them if you aren't allowed to test the HAARP equipment yourself?

[oody]

I don't know, but I don't and wouldn't in the future rule out the possibility that it could be used as a weapon for nefarious purposes.

Certainly a better understanding of how radio waves propogate through the ionosphere might gain us an advantage over an enemy. I don't think anyone's disputing that.

[SpringHallConvert]

Certainly a better understanding of how radio waves propogate through the ionosphere might gain us an advantage over an enemy. I don't think anyone's disputing that.

Are you assuming that that is all HAARP does? If so, why?

[dudalb]

I don't know, but I don't and wouldn't in the future rule out the possibility that it could be used as a weapon for nefarious purposes.

Problem is for HAARP to be used as a weapon in the way the CT theories have it takes it into Science Fiction territory way past the point of plausibility.

[dudalb]

Certainly a better understanding of how radio waves propogate through the ionosphere might gain us an advantage over an enemy. I don't think anyone's disputing that.

Problem is the CT's think HAARP has pretty much the same capablities of the Main Weapon Darth Vader had in The Death Star.........

[SpringHallConvert]

Problem is for HAARP to be used as a weapon in the way the CT theories have it takes it into Science Fiction territory way past the point of plausibility.

I haven't inventoried every HAARP conspiracy theory out there, and I seriously doubt you have either.

How about this instead? Is it plausible that our government has lied/misled about HAARP and that it does have some applications as a weapon with some unusual and/or destructive capabilities?

I personally don't see why not.

[JayUtah]

They could be lying just as easily as they could be telling the truth.

Then by that logic, everything ever built by anyone at any time for any purpose is equally a potential weapon.

Since you don't know what it purports to be, and you admit you don't know what it "really" is, and you can't speak meaningfully at any level about any of the concepts involved, you're just handwaving. Sorry, not interested.

Why? What purpose would that serve?

Because your entire approach to this topic is to avoid being pinned down on anything, so that you can take comfort in the very wide latitude offered by almost infinite and useless vagueness. From that point of view, you propose to look down your nose at anyone who tries to introduce even the slightest hint of a fact into the discussion. Sorry, but as the proponent you'll have to take some stand.

There could be a thousand different conspiracy theories surrounding HAARP? Why would I care to comment on them?

Because they're what Sts60 was talking about. If you're going to take him to task for pointing out that HAARP can't do the crazy things attributed to it, you could at least pay attention to what those crazy claims are. Address the claims made, not the claims you wish were made.

[JayUtah]

How are you going to reliably test these claims and evaluate them if you aren't allowed to test the HAARP equipment yourself?

That's not what I meant by "reliable" and "testable" in my statement.

[CORed]

Ok, let's do this a different way: what do you think it's for?

Jesus Christ... Don't encourage him.

I don't disagree with you, but I think it's safe to say that he will never answer that question.

[Mudcat]

I don't know, but I don't and wouldn't in the future rule out the possibility that it could be used as a weapon for nefarious purposes.

I would. Just by knowing basic laws of physics.

[oody]

Originally Posted by oody
Certainly a better understanding of how radio waves propogate through the ionosphere might gain us an advantage over an enemy. I don't think anyone's disputing that.
Are you assuming that that is all HAARP does? If so, why?
I'm just establishing that you're okay with the defense department having a legitimate interest in studying effects of an excited ionosphere. Good to know you're on board with that.

[The Dark Lord]

Maybe the evil Jew billionaires that secretly control everything are using HAARP to control SHC's mind just because they like *********** with him. Can you prove that this isn't happening SHC?

lol

[dafydd]

Maybe the evil Jew billionaires that secretly control everything are using HAARP to control SHC's mind just because they like *********** with him. Can you prove that this isn't happening SHC?

lol

His tinfoil hat will take care of that.

[Mudcat]

His tinfoil hat will take care of that.

Actually the MythBusters busted that myth, it would actually make SHC more susceptible to transmissions.

[The Dark Lord]

His tinfoil hat will take care of that.

That is what they want him to think.

[Kid Eager]

I don't know, but I don't and wouldn't in the future rule out the possibility that it could be used as a weapon for nefarious purposes.

The same argument could be made for lime jello.

[Travis]

Are you assuming that that is all HAARP does? If so, why?

Because I understand physics. For HAARP to do anything other than what they say it is doing would require us to throw out everything we know about physics. And that means our accomplishments in sending robot probes to other planets, keeping satellites in orbit or just plain old artillery aiming have all been done through dumb luck.

So do you think all of physics is wrong or do you agree that people who claim a little tiny antennae array in Alaska is just for studying the ionosphere are correct?

[Laton]

Actually the MythBusters busted that myth, it would actually make SHC more susceptible to transmissions.

That would explain a lot.

[IdiotWhacker]

Just ask the U.S. government what it does, because you can be certain that they will tell you the truth. The government always tells the truth.

the strawman is armed and ready.

[Humanzee]

the strawman is armed and ready.

Oh gawd! <fumbles with tinfoil hat>

[Checkmite]

I haven't inventoried every HAARP conspiracy theory out there, and I seriously doubt you have either.

Doesn't matter; when somebody specifically says "this earthquake was caused by HAARP" or "these Doppler weather radar images show HAARP at work", we can say "that's not true for reasons X, Y, and Z". So far we've been able to do this with every specific claim about HAARP's "secret" abilities that I'm aware of.

How about this instead? Is it plausible that our government has lied/misled about HAARP and that it does have some applications as a weapon with some unusual and/or destructive capabilities?

I personally don't see why not.

It is possible. It is not plausible; if HAARP was a secret project or weapon of some kind there would be some serious physical and TS/SCI protection around it. Contrarily, nothing about HAARP is classified; the facility even holds open houses. There never seem to be any armed or unarmed guards present at HAARP, even during these open house events where strangers are free to wander and observe. In fact, the entirety of the facility's security seems to consist of a padlocked gate during off-hours; roughly the equivalent of my back yard's security.

[IdiotWhacker]

So SHC your not going to bring mathematics or any science to the table, but your mere opinion to address the technical capabilities of HAARP like always?

[SpringHallConvert]

I would. Just by knowing basic laws of physics.

How do the laws of physics inform you of HAARP's capabilities and its intended uses? Be specific.

[Checkmite]

How do the laws of physics inform you of HAARP's capabilities and its intended uses? Be specific.

Here is one specific example: "aimed" radio waves cannot be directed over the horizon; meaning that even if HAARP could use radio frequencies to cause earthquakes or create weather events, it could only cause them at locations within HAARP's line of sight. This would exclude Japanese and Haitian earthquakes, Gulf hurricanes, and Indonesian tsunamis.

[Kid Eager]

How do the laws of physics inform you of HAARP's capabilities and its intended uses? Be specific.

You'll have to be more specific

[BazBear]

How do you know the KRLD transmission antenna in Garland TX is really a radio antenna SHC? How do you know it's not for nefarious purposes?

How do you know your computer isn't reading your mind? Maybe the NSA is reading your every thought!

[SpringHallConvert]

Then by that logic, everything ever built by anyone at any time for any purpose is equally a potential weapon.

If you say so.

Since you don't know what it purports to be, and you admit you don't know what it "really" is, and you can't speak meaningfully at any level about any of the concepts involved, you're just handwaving. Sorry, not interested.

You don't really know what it is, so you can't speak meaningfully either.

Because your entire approach to this topic is to avoid being pinned down on anything, so that you can take comfort in the very wide latitude offered by almost infinite and useless vagueness. From that point of view, you propose to look down your nose at anyone who tries to introduce even the slightest hint of a fact into the discussion. Sorry, but as the proponent you'll have to take some stand.

The problem with that is, you don't have any facts to introduce.

Because they're what Sts60 was talking about. If you're going to take him to task for pointing out that HAARP can't do the crazy things attributed to it, you could at least pay attention to what those crazy claims are. Address the claims made, not the claims you wish were made.

Sts60 claimed HAARP isn't a weapon. I don't see how he could really know that. What evidence is he basing his assertion on? What the government says?

[SpringHallConvert]

Here is one specific example: "aimed" radio waves cannot be directed over the horizon; meaning that even if HAARP could use radio frequencies to cause earthquakes or create weather events, it could only cause them at locations within HAARP's line of sight. This would exclude Japanese and Haitian earthquakes, Gulf hurricanes, and Indonesian tsunamis.

Perhaps HAARP has other intended uses and capabilities beyond that?

[Checkmite]

Perhaps HAARP has other intended uses and capabilities beyond that?

Like what?

Give me an example of a hypothetical use and I'll tell you to the best of my ability how plausible it is.

[SpringHallConvert]

It is possible. It is not plausible; if HAARP was a secret project or weapon of some kind there would be some serious physical and TS/SCI protection around it.

Maybe, but not necessarily. Much of the security around HAARP could be electronic or well-hidden, as well.

Contrarily, nothing about HAARP is classified; the facility even holds open houses.

At least, that's what we are told. Open houses don't signify anything, as visitors can easily be herded into the least sensitive areas.

There never seem to be any armed or unarmed guards present at HAARP, even during these open house events where strangers are free to wander and observe.

Well, there could be a good reason for that. Armed guards are a dead giveaway of something that needs to be protected.

In fact, the entirety of the facility's security seems to consist of a padlocked gate during off-hours; roughly the equivalent of my back yard's security.

Sure, that's what is visible from the outside. Sometimes when I go to the bank, I'll see the vault door wide open with not a guard in sight, but I know that my attempting to rob the place would trip numerous unseen security systems.

[SpringHallConvert]

Like what?

Give me an example of a hypothetical use and I'll tell you to the best of my ability how plausible it is.

I don't know. Our government has a long, sordid history of doing things I couldn't even conceive of while in my foulest, worst mood. Maybe HAARP also has a purpose I can't conceive of.

[CORed]

How are you going to reliably test these claims and evaluate them if you aren't allowed to test the HAARP equipment yourself?

SHC, don't let these people get you down. I work for the government and I know that the real purpose of HAARP is to beam stupid rays at people who don't believe everything the government tells them in order to make them post stuff on the internet that discredits them.

ETA: Of course since I work for the government you can be assured that part of this post is a lie.

[sts60]

It has it's own website.
People like to say it's 'top secret', but it has it's own website full of info.
http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/
And you will note at that web site that there are no classified aspects to HAARP. It's not secret. Which is not to say that the military might not develop classified communications technology based partly on increased understanding of ionospheric behavior, but the HAARP research itself is not classified.

And I've read something like "not intended for military use", which to me almost sounds like it could be. And if so, what could it do?

Nothing of direct military value. It generates data which is of use to the military as well as civilian researchers.

Basically this is my understanding of it...
Big antenna array, pumps high energy, intended to research ionosphere,

Correct.

?????, people say it is weapon.

People say a lot of stupid things. That's one of them.

IndridCold, I hope your questions are being usefully answered, despite SpringHallConvert's apparent (I have him on Ignore) attempt to turn this into another demonstration of appeals to ignorance and strawman-beating. I'm not a comm guy, and my space physics degree was back in the Stone Age, but you don't need to be much of an expert to debunk claims like those you have heard. I'll do what I can to answer any further questions you may have.

[Kid Eager]

I don't know. Our government has a long, sordid history of doing things I couldn't even conceive of while in my foulest, worst mood. Maybe HAARP also has a purpose I can't conceive of.

You'll have to provide more evidence to support that claim - I have no way of knowing how foul your worst moods are.

Do you or have you ever used lime jello?

[Checkmite]

Just out of personal curiosity, I went and had a look at the VFR sectional for that area in Alaska, and HAARP is on it:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c159/jk_mellifera/ceeb1af1.jpg

It's visible just above the center of the image, represented by a blue triangle (the standard symbol for obstructions under 1000 feet tall). The numbers next to it represent the tallest obstruction's height in feet above sea level (and above ground level).

What's interesting and relevant to this discussion is that one immediately notices there's no restricted or Class B/C/D airspace around it. What this means is, during VFR conditions anybody can fly over and around the HAARP facility at any time for any duration and at any altitude below 18,000 feet, no clearance required. Obviously the government doesn't consider HAARP's HF radio operations a hazard to aviation, nor do they seem concerned about people flying overhead and (for instance) taking video or photographs. Not very likely for a "secret" project or weapons site.

[Humanzee]

^ +1

Excellent point!

[Mudcat]

Five seconds with Google and I found images of the actual Area 51 online... the very same place that has signs prohibiting photography all around it and is considered absolutely off limits to all but authorized personnel.

Probably not a good idea to post those images here though.

[SpringHallConvert]

Nothing of direct military value.

How do you know? Because the website says so? Because the government says so?

[Mudcat]

Just out of personal curiosity, I went and had a look at the VFR sectional for that area in Alaska, and HAARP is on it:


I can't help but notice the town by the name of 'Sourdough' on that map. :D

[SpringHallConvert]

Not very likely for a "secret" project or weapons site.

Not necessarily, especially considering the low level of air traffic in that region of the country.

[The Dark Lord]

Maybe SHC is actually a government disinfo agent sent to make conspiracy theorists looked whacked out. Can you prove that you are not a disinfo agent, SHC?

[Checkmite]

Five seconds with Google and I found images of the actual Area 51 online... the very same place that has signs prohibiting photography all around it and is considered absolutely off limits to all but authorized personnel.

Probably not a good idea to post those images here though.

You can find it in Google Earth. The military can't force satellites to not take photos. Aircraft, on the other hand...

[Checkmite]

Not necessarily, especially considering the low level of air traffic in that region of the country.

If it was secret, the airspace would be restricted.

Consider this map:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c159/jk_mellifera/90d4626d.jpg

That's "Area 51". The airport itself doesn't appear on the chart of course, but the (labeled) lake bed and topography does - it's the little round lake in the center of the box marked "R 4808 N" at the upper-leftish. The Las Vegas terminal area is at the bottom-right corner of this image, some 80 miles SSE. Groom Lake is in a much more remote location, air traffic wise, than HAARP; yet it is clearly surrounded by vast, immense quantities of restricted airspace where planes aren't permitted to fly. Meanwhile, there's a public airport less than 20 miles from HAARP.

[Mudcat]

You can find it in Google Earth. The military can't force satellites to not take photos.
Indeed, most of the photos I found were from satellites. That place is huge.

Aircraft, on the other hand...
And yet aerial photos of Area 51 exist, which does nothing to dispute your argument and a lot to dispute SHC's harebrained claims about a place in Alaska you can go up and walk to as versus Area 51 you'd likely be detained if you tried the same thing.

[SezMe]

Jesus Christ... Don't encourage him.
Ya know, in the context of this thread that is one funny post. Made me laugh.

[SezMe]

The problem with that is, you don't have any facts to introduce.
Please list the posts in this thread which contains facts that you have introduced.

[SpringHallConvert]

Please list the posts in this thread which contains facts that you have introduced.

I introduced the fact that you guys don't really know what HAARP does, despite all the claims to the contrary.

[Mudcat]

I introduced the fact that you guys don't really know what HAARP does, despite all the claims to the contrary.

I think you're confusing 'opinion' with 'fact', as there's been repeated demonstration here that people do understand what HAARP is. The only one struggling here is you.

[Checkmite]

I introduced the fact that you guys don't really know what HAARP does, despite all the claims to the contrary.

HAARP emits radio waves on the HF band for the purpose of exciting an area of the ionosphere directly above the facility and uses radio and optical instruments to study the results.

[The Dark Lord]

You guys don't really know what the moon is. Maybe it is really a giant transmitter put there by the inter-dimensional shape-shifting reptilians in order to control people's minds. Except mine, because I am special.

[SpringHallConvert]

HAARP emits radio waves on the HF band for the purpose of exciting an area of the ionosphere directly above the facility and uses radio and optical instruments to study the results.

At least, that's what we are told.

[SpringHallConvert]

I think you're confusing 'opinion' with 'fact', as there's been repeated demonstration here that people do understand what HAARP is. The only one struggling here is you.

Not really, as these people claiming to know what HAARP does can't prove what they believe one way or the other. They're just regurgitating whatever they've been told by the government.

[The Dark Lord]

At least, that's what we are told.

Similar to how we are told that the moon is just a giant rock orbiting the earth. But I am skeptical.

[Mudcat]

HAARP emits radio waves on the HF band for the purpose of exciting an area of the ionosphere directly above the facility and uses radio and optical instruments to study the results.

I never even knew of HAARP's existence before today and yet it makes perfect sense to me to put such a station in part of the world where the Aurora (which interferes with normal transmissions) is fairly common.

Would help us develop technologies that allow communications to function properly during solar flares (which also interferes with normal transmissions).

[Checkmite]

Conveniently, one of the live data feeds HAARP offers on its website is an HF spectrum waterfall (http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/data/spectrum2/www/hf.html). Although HAARP does not officially announce when it operates, one can easily find out by checking the waterfall; its signal appears as a solid bright yellow line, usually between 2500khz and 3500khz. Of course they could be "faking it"; but it just so happens that when a signal appears on the waterfall, people who live close enough are able to hear it; and when there's no signal indicated; people don't hear it.

HAARP hasn't done any signals at all this month AFIAK; but they were rather busy in early February every night for about a week and a half or so.

[Dcdrac]

I thought HAARP was jsut an atmpsheric testing station and not much else...

[SezMe]

Not really, as these people claiming to know what HAARP does can't prove what they believe one way or the other.
Describe what you would accept as proof.

[SpringHallConvert]

Describe what you would accept as proof.

I don't know. What do you have? Anything other than what the government says?

[The Dark Lord]

SHC's religious beliefs are unfalsifiable. There is literally nothing that could convince him that he is wrong.

[LSSBB]

SHC's religious beliefs are unfalsifiable. There is literally nothing that could convince him that he is wrong.

The funny thing is he can visit the facility. They have open house times and give tours.

[JimBenArm]

The funny thing is he can visit the facility. They have open house times and give tours.
"...and on the left is the death ray control room. Please don't touch the orange knob unless you really hate Overland Park, Kansas."

[LSSBB]

"...and on the left is the death ray control room. Please don't touch the orange knob unless you really hate Overland Park, Kansas."

"How about this wed wun?"
"Not the wed wun! Don't ever press the we wun!"

[PetersCreek]

Not necessarily, especially considering the low level of air traffic in that region of the country.

You obviously don't know much about my region of the country or General Aviation in Alaska. We're home to 6 times as many private pilots and 16 times as many aircraft (per capita) as any other US state, the largest float plane base in the world, and the smallest road system in the country.

Don't take my word for it, though. After all, I work for the government and have a long, sordid history of providing accurate information in support of the National Airspace System.

[LSSBB]

HAARP attacks the Schaumburg Medieval Times.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=819&pictureid=5825

[JimBenArm]

You obviously don't know much about my region of the country or General Aviation in Alaska. We're home to 6 times as many private pilots and 16 times as many aircraft (per capita) as any other US state, the largest float plane base in the world, and the smallest road system in the country.

Don't take my word for it, though. After all, I work for the government and have a long, sordid history of providing accurate information in support of the National Airspace System.
Ya rat bastage, ya! How can you sleep at night?

[Travis]

I don't know. What do you have? Anything other than what the government says?

Knowledge that radio waves do not cause earthquakes or hurricanes.

What do you got?

[twinstead]

I don't know. What do you have? Anything other than what the government says?

He asked you a question. Specifically, EXACTLY what evidence would convince you?

[JimBenArm]

He asked you a question. Specifically, EXACTLY what evidence would convince you?
If a big, ol' harp fell out of the sky and he got his head caught in the strings.

[jhunter1163]

<snip> nor do they seem concerned about people flying overhead and (for instance) taking video or photographs...

Or getting vaporized by high-energy RF rays...

[HawksFan]

If a big, ol' harp fell out of the sky and he got his head caught in the strings.

Isn't that how we got to this point in the first place?

[sts60]

You obviously don't know much about my region of the country or General Aviation in Alaska. We're home to 6 times as many private pilots and 16 times as many aircraft (per capita) as any other US state, the largest float plane base in the world, and the smallest road system in the country.

Haha, did SpringHallConvert really say there's not much air traffic around there? GA is king in Alaska. (My dad used to fly up there in the wild 'n' wooly '50s.) It was partly SHC's speaking ex cathedra on things he knew nothing about - like this - that had me put him on Ignore in the first place.

But, hey, "the government" says we also landed on the Moon. Maybe SHC wants to participate in the Apollo hoax thread; I'd take him off Ignore for that. Not much going on over there - I suppose FF88 is busy link-spamming San Antonio basketball fans again or something.

Again, IndridCold, I hope we've been able to answer your questions. HAARP, by its observed nature, as well as detailed descriptions, isn't a weapon*, although it is partly funded by the military in hopes of developing applications for communications and long-wave sensing. It cannot do any of the bizarre things I've seen ascribed to it; that's physics.

*I suppose, if you could trick a bad guy into grabbing one of the antennas while transmitting, give him a nasty RF burn. Seems a bit inefficient.

[JayUtah]

I don't know.

Then we win. There are no goalposts.

[JayUtah]

At least, that's what we are told.

Argument from ignorance.

HAARP is purported to work a specific way. There's a buttload of evidence suggesting it does work that way, but of course you think anyone who believes that is a chump. Science can tell us whether the way HAARP supposedly works is compatible with any of the conspiracy theories proposed: mind control, weather control, etc. Those are easy to refute. If one accepts the premise that HAARP works as advertised, then a whole bunch of conspiracy theories are simply untenable.

But you want to tell us that HAARP works in some other, unknown way. You can't give any specifics about how you think it "really" works, and you can't show us any evidence that HAARP "really" works that way, except through your standard handwaving about how govenment always lies. Nothing specific, nothing testable. Just a very creatively phrased, "I don't have the faintest idea."

The reason that rational people aren't willing to follow you into that fantasy world is that propositions of the form, "It could be anything but what they say it is," are too vague and far-reaching to be useful. Yes, even lime Jell-O could be "anything other than what they say it is." That doesn't give us any rational reason to believe it's an alien mind-control agent. If someone wanted to make that specific claim, he'd have to test that specific claim according to evidence of commensurate specificity.

That whole "specificity of evidence" problem really has you baffled. You think you're clever in leaving the goalposts so far apart than any kicked ball will go through it. Well, unfortunately when you do that, you don't get to hype up the skill of the kicker. Nobody ever won a Nobel Prize for saying "this might be true" You only get the prize when you should that certain specific things are not only possible, but actually favored by the evidence.

If you want to suggest, for example, that HAARP is a mega death ray, you have to show evidence from the HAARP site or its data that supports that particular conclusion. You don't get to rationally propose that just because you, for whatever reason, don't know what's going on there.

[JayUtah]

Not necessarily, especially considering the low level of air traffic in that region of the country.

You've never been to Alaska, have you?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

SpringHallConvert must have taken the revelation that Santa Claus wasn't real very hard. Now he implicitly doubts everything that adults say. He doesn't even make an attempt at personal verification, he's that broken.

Poor kid...

Problem is for HAARP to be used as a weapon in the way the CT theories have it takes it into Science Fiction territory way past the point of plausibility.


Perhaps more accurately labelled "Science Fantasy".

[aggle-rithm]

How will any of that help you know what HAARP's capabilities truly are and what its intended purpose is?


How do you know twinkies aren't really mind-control devices?

How do you know that dogs aren't actually in charge, with us as their slaves?

How do you know the moon isn't smaller and closer than scientists say it is?

How do you know that frogs weren't genetically engineered to spy on us?

....

See how idiotic this line of reasoning is?

[aggle-rithm]

Perhaps HAARP has other intended uses and capabilities beyond that?

Congratulations, you've breeched the "God-of-the-gaps" argument.

You're well on your way to becoming a first-class troll!

[beachnut]

How can you determine whether or not HAARP is or could be used as a weapon? Simply declaring that you or somebody else knows how to do science isn't an answer to that question.



How can science inform you of whether or not HAARP is a weapon?

If you could do science you could explain why HAARP is not a weapon. The events of 911 are the same as HAARP to you; unknown. Why can't you figure out HAARP? Because it requires research and reading?

What do you think HAARP is? Are you gullible on HAARP like you are on 911?

Fantasy and crackpots on HAARP - http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1207.cfm
The crack pot appraoch has some level of sanity as Satan arrives in time to save HAARPs reputation... Soliciting Satan’s assistance in causing storms actually seems more plausible to me than HAARP. http://theintelhub.com/2012/04/04/deadly-supercells-followed-haarp-weather-mod-activity/

Reality - http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/factSheet.html

If you would like, you could show me the energy of HAARP with simple equations. Go ahead show us some science stuff.

1.7 gigawatts (billion watts) is transmitted by HAARP, so say insane idiots who think HAARP modifies weather on a global scale. But HAARP transmits 3600 kW, 472 times less.
The intensity of the HF signal in the ionosphere is less than 3 microwatts per cm2, tens of thousands of times less than the Sun's natural electromagnetic radiation reaching the earth and hundreds of times less than even the normal random variations in intensity of the Sun's natural ultraviolet (UV) energy which creates the ionosphere. http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/tech.html

Tens of thousands of times less than the Sun's natural electromagnetic radiation. You need science not your standard delusional fantasy pile of poppycock.

HAARP is equal to 3,000 microwave ovens in power output. You may want to worry about ATC RADARs, with thousand of them putting out all that electromagnetic stuff you don't understand. Add the hundreds of weather RADARS, the thousands of microwave transmitters stations, cell towers, etc, etc, etc.

Wow, you don't do science or research. Not news.

Don't need the government to understand or find out about HAARP, science does it. You could study it and figure it out for yourself. But you will post nonsense backed with more nonsense.

[JayUtah]

I don't know. Our government has a long, sordid history of doing things I couldn't even conceive of while in my foulest, worst mood. Maybe HAARP also has a purpose I can't conceive of.

Translation: My vague, hysterical handwaving is a good reason that everyone should consider lime Jell-O a potential biological weapon.

[JimBenArm]

Translation: My vague, hysterical handwaving is a good reason that everyone should consider lime Jell-O a potential biological weapon.
Dear god, no! I just got my colonoscopy prep kit and in it is a box of (dun-dun-dah!) LIME JELLO! I knew I should have kept quiet!

[dudalb]

"...and on the left is the death ray control room. Please don't touch the orange knob unless you really hate Overland Park, Kansas."

That reminds me of that line in "Diamonds Are Forever" where Blofeld is deciding what to destroy with his satellite based super death ray to demonstrate it's power:

"We could destroy the whole state of Kansas.But who would miss it?".

[Checkmite]

One of the bigger problems with the "what if it's something else" tangent is that if HAARP is not being used to create earthquakes or alter the weather (because radio just can't do that, scientifically-speaking), then there's nothing else "nefarious" that its RF equipment really could be doing. Communications relay? Satellite uplink? These are fairly mundane, non-evil things.

[PetersCreek]

What's interesting and relevant to this discussion is that one immediately notices there's no restricted or Class B/C/D airspace around it. What this means is, during VFR conditions anybody can fly over and around the HAARP facility at any time for any duration and at any altitude below 18,000 feet, no clearance required. Obviously the government doesn't consider HAARP's HF radio operations a hazard to aviation, nor do they seem concerned about people flying overhead and (for instance) taking video or photographs. Not very likely for a "secret" project or weapons site.

To expand on this point, here's the relevant FAA Flight Advisory (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/systemops/fs/alaskan/advisories/haarp/). Rather than issue a NOTAM or impose a TFR, HAARP operations are conducted with deference to air traffic within 5 nm of the facility.

Maybe, but not necessarily. Much of the security around HAARP could be electronic or well-hidden, as well.

Do you have any understanding of government/military security that isn't based on movies, television, or conspiracists' hyperbole? I do and the physical security of the facility is not consistent with an operation as sensitive as you suggest.

At least, that's what we are told. Open houses don't signify anything, as visitors can easily be herded into the least sensitive areas.

Can you name any other operation as nefarious as you suggest that has such open access?

Armed guards are a dead giveaway of something that needs to be protected.

True. But the presence of armed guards is not a dead giveaway as to the nature of the protected assets. Our local En Route facility has armed guards at the entry gate. Are they a Top Secret facility? Do they have a death ray?

Ya rat bastage, ya! How can you sleep at night?

Usually on my side...or on my back...but rarely on my stomach. My wife insists I can sleep standing up but that's never been observed...on video...or by independent witnesses.

[JimBenArm]

But what if they used it to overcook your burgers on the grill? Huh? Did you ever think of that?
"My god, Martha, this burger is dry! DRY!"

[tsig]

Maybe, but not necessarily. Much of the security around HAARP could be electronic or well-hidden, as well.



At least, that's what we are told. Open houses don't signify anything, as visitors can easily be herded into the least sensitive areas.



Well, there could be a good reason for that. Armed guards are a dead giveaway of something that needs to be protected.



Sure, that's what is visible from the outside. Sometimes when I go to the bank, I'll see the vault door wide open with not a guard in sight, but I know that my attempting to rob the place would trip numerous unseen security systems.

So if I see armed guards I know there's something to be protected and if I don't see armed guards I know there's something to be protected?

[PetersCreek]

Dear god, no! I just got my colonoscopy prep kit and in it is a box of (dun-dun-dah!) LIME JELLO! I knew I should have kept quiet!

Now who's the bastage? My kit wasn't nearly that appetizing. I just had to choke down a gallon of vile stuff.

[LSSBB]

Now who's the bastage? My kit wasn't nearly that appetizing. I just had to choke down a gallon of vile stuff.

I was just given a list and had to buy all the vile stuff myself.

[JimBenArm]

Now who's the bastage? My kit wasn't nearly that appetizing. I just had to choke down a gallon of vile stuff.
Well, they weren't trying to "off" you. Just make you miserable!

[tsig]

"...and on the left is the death ray control room. Please don't touch the orange knob unless you really hate Overland Park, Kansas."

Grabs orange knob. Never did like Overland Park.:)

[JimBenArm]

Grabs orange knob. Never did like Overland Park.:)
Who does?

[tsig]

Haha, did SpringHallConvert really say there's not much air traffic around there? GA is king in Alaska. (My dad used to fly up there in the wild 'n' wooly '50s.) It was partly SHC's speaking ex cathedra on things he knew nothing about - like this - that had me put him on Ignore in the first place.

But, hey, "the government" says we also landed on the Moon. Maybe SHC wants to participate in the Apollo hoax thread; I'd take him off Ignore for that. Not much going on over there - I suppose FF88 is busy link-spamming San Antonio basketball fans again or something.

Again, IndridCold, I hope we've been able to answer your questions. HAARP, by its observed nature, as well as detailed descriptions, isn't a weapon*, although it is partly funded by the military in hopes of developing applications for communications and long-wave sensing. It cannot do any of the bizarre things I've seen ascribed to it; that's physics.

*I suppose, if you could trick a bad guy into grabbing one of the antennas while transmitting, give him a nasty RF burn. Seems a bit inefficient.

Yes there are lots of pilots in Alaska but do you know who licenses those pilots, that's right the government so they're not gonna blow the whistle./SHC off

[tsig]

Then we win. There are no goalposts.

No rules, no contest, there's nothing to win.

[JimBenArm]

Well, Vanna does have some lovely parting gifts. And a home version.

[BazBear]

*I suppose, if you could trick a bad guy into grabbing one of the antennas while transmitting, give him a nasty RF burn. Seems a bit inefficient.
Yeah, that means a RT-524 is a weapon too. Well it is if the dumb *** vehicle driver turns it on and keys the ******* mic when you're changing the antenna matching unit cable. That was more a shock than a burn though, it just made my left palm slightly pink for a day or so.

[Craig4]

Then we win. There are no goalposts.

Don't bother. He's not the caliber of person who gets taken seriously anyway. I have him on ignore. He amused me as a chew toy for a while but he's a bit of a one trick pony.

[sts60]

...Do you have any understanding of government/military security that isn't based on movies, television, or conspiracists' hyperbole? I do and the physical security of the facility is not consistent with an operation as sensitive as you suggest...

Not from what I've seen. That's why I put him on Ignore in the first place - his "understanding" of how things worked was a Hollywood/YouTube version, but of course anybody disagreeing with him was lectured in the condescending tones of a 12-year-old fresh from a Matrix and V for Vendetta marathon. From what I've seen quoted, that hasn't changed, nor have his childish notions of what constitutes "evidence". I already waste too much time giving FF88/David C my attention; the junior model, SHC, won't get it unless he wants to join the Apollo "hoax" thread.

The funny thing is, HAARP has a stated military reserach purpose perfectly commensurate with its observed characteristics. Researchers from UAF and other civilian institutions publish scholarly articles on its real operations all the time in open literature. But because they don't understand it, and because (IMO) it's got a cool acronym, the conspiracy nuts can't accept the reality, and project all their paranoia and ignorance onto it.

[PetersCreek]

The funny thing is, HAARP has a stated military reserach purpose perfectly commensurate with its observed characteristics. Researchers from UAF and other civilian institutions publish scholarly articles on its real operations all the time in open literature. But because they don't understand it, and because (IMO) it's got a cool acronym, the conspiracy nuts can't accept the reality, and project all their paranoia and ignorance onto it.

It would not surprise me in the least if some CTs claim that the fictional HARP system from the movie Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins is a whistleblow.

[JayUtah]

Don't bother. He's not the caliber of person who gets taken seriously anyway. I have him on ignore. He amused me as a chew toy for a while but he's a bit of a one trick pony.

Yeah, that's the problem. His one trick is the argument from ignorance, following by the condescending lecture about how much less brainwashed he is than all us government cheerleaders, followed by the ham-fisted attempts to shift the burden of proof. He's too predictable to be much amusement as a troll.

At least AL has good timing with trying to regurgitate the Titanic CT on the weekend of the anniversary.

[phunk]

A friend of mine is coming to me with his youtube videos blaming some disasters on the HAARP telling me it is Nicola Tesla's death ray and that it's going to split the Earth.

Your friend needs to do some more research, he's mixing unrelated conspiracies now. Tesla's nonsense claim that he could split the earth was based on mechanical resonnance, and completely unrelated to EMF or anything HAARP could do.

[SpringHallConvert]

He asked you a question. Specifically, EXACTLY what evidence would convince you?

I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?

[DGM]

I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?
Now all you have to convince people you're worth the effort to try to convince (given your terms).

Have at it. Convince us.

[SezMe]

SpringHallConvert, I'd like you to join in a beauty contest I'm sponsoring. What? You want to know what the evaluation criteria are before entering? I don't know until I see you.

[Kid Eager]

I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?

This is it? I was hoping for something more entertaining, or at least something that demonstrated some care and attention to his craft.

Oh well, my hope that he would grow into something worth reading for the luz has failed to materialise. Onto ignore you go.

[tsig]

I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?

Since you categorically refuse to admit that evidence exists proving anything to you is like pounding sand down a rathole.

[Matthew Cline]

It pumps RF energy into a patch of the ionosphere. It's good for studying some of the ionospheric behaviors and effects on radio propagation, and thus has military as well as civilian applications in communications.

Ah, but you see, according to some CTers, since RF can be used as a carrying wave, that means that RF energy can be used to carry other kinds of energy, so it doesn't matter that RF energy can't do ______, because the unnamed other sort of energy could do it.

I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?

Lets say that any civilians who wanted to were not only allowed to inspect every room and every square inch of the HAARP facility, but were also given complete access to every computer, and were allowed to take apart every single piece of equipment to study their insides. Would that convince you? If so, would anything short of that convince you? If not, why wouldn't it convince you?

Also, do you doubt the government's claims about HAARP just as much as you doubt any other claim the government makes, or do you doubt the HAARP claims more? If you doubt the HAARP claims more, why?

[SpringHallConvert]

This is it? I was hoping for something more entertaining, or at least something that demonstrated some care and attention to his craft.

Oh well, my hope that he would grow into something worth reading for the luz has failed to materialise. Onto ignore you go.

There's that Government Truther religious tendency I referenced in the 9/11 forum oozing to the surface:

"Think as I do or I'll ignore you!"

How persuasive.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I think that a battery powered Nerf gun can be made into a real assault rifle firing real bullets if you just replace the stock spring with a much stronger one!

[BazBear]

I think that a battery powered Nerf gun can be made into a real assault rifle firing real bullets if you just replace the stock spring with a much stronger one!
Nonsense. You also need some Top Secret MilSpec Nerf and a free energy cell.

[Redtail]

I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?

How would you know it when you saw it?

[sts60]

Ah, but you see, according to some CTers, since RF can be used as a carrying wave, that means that RF energy can be used to carry other kinds of energy, so it doesn't matter that RF energy can't do ______, because the unnamed other sort of energy could do it.

The funny thing is that here we have a system whose military funding, and the reasons the military has an interest, are publicly described - a place that you can fly over in your small plane, a place that you can walk through in an open house - a place that is so super-secret that some of the guys using it are from the Russian Academy of Sciences - and because it's so obviously not the McGuffin, to the crackpots it's the ultimate McGuffin.

You are partly right, though. It turns out HF radio waves are an excellent carrier for ignorant paranoia.

[LSSBB]

HAARP attacks my back yard.
http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=819&pictureid=5831

[Alareth]

Just ask the U.S. government what it does, because you can be certain that they will tell you the truth. The government always tells the truth.

Where did you ever get a crazy idea like that?

All governments tell lies, there isn't a single person here that will tell you otherwise. But that doesn't mean they only tell lies.

Think of it this way, when you were a child, did your parents ever tell you stories about the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny or Santa Clause? If so they lied to you. Does that mean that everything else they ever told you was also a lie?

Governments lie to their people for numerous reasons and while I'm not going to get into the ethics of such actions, there are things that the general public is better off not knowing. There is dialog from Men in Black that comes to mind "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."

Don't assume it's a lie without a reason to suspect such.

[gabeygoat]

He amused me as a chew toy for a while but he's a bit of a one trick pony.

That's what made him the solitary person on my "ignore" list. I think in 10 years I've only had a total of 2 people on "ignore" lists.
I don't mind, in fact, I enjoy debating with people, even if their arguments are bizzarre, and wrong-headed. However, as you point out, he is a one trick pony, "If you don't believe what I believe, then you believe everything the government tells you." Seriously, that seems to be the person's sole message. It's boring.

[tsig]

I think that a battery powered Nerf gun can be made into a real assault rifle firing real bullets if you just replace the stock spring with a much stronger one!


This thread has jumped the Haarp.

[SpringHallConvert]

That's what made him the solitary person on my "ignore" list. I think in 10 years I've only had a total of 2 people on "ignore" lists.
I don't mind, in fact, I enjoy debating with people, even if their arguments are bizzarre, and wrong-headed. However, as you point out, he is a one trick pony, "If you don't believe what I believe, then you believe everything the government tells you." Seriously, that seems to be the person's sole message. It's boring.

Well, what do you know? More government trutherism religious mumbo jumbo.

[Travis]

Well, what do you know? More government trutherism religious mumbo jumbo.

Do you really believe that physics are dictated to us by some government bureaucrat?

[JimBenArm]

Do you really believe that physics are dictated to us by some government bureaucrat?
It's the Bureau of Approved Physics Bureau.

[Dcdrac]

THis is the HAARP website

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

Overview of Active Ionospheric Research
In the field of geophysics, the use of high power transmitters, such as the one located at the HAARP facility, to study the upper atmosphere is called "active ionospheric research." The HAARP facility will be used to introduce a small, known amount of energy into a specific ionospheric layer for the purpose of studying the complex physical processes that occur in these naturally occurring plasma regions that are created each day by the sun. The effects of this added energy are limited to a small region directly over the HAARP observatory ranging in size from 9 km in radius to as much as 40 km in radius.
It is important to realize that HAARP interacts only with charged (or ionized) particles in a limited region of the ionosphere directly over the facility. Interaction occurs because a charged particle (electron or positive ion) will react to an external electric field. HAARP does not interact with the neutral atoms and molecules that make up the bulk of the gas at all atmospheric heights.

When the HAARP HF transmitter is shut down at the end of an experiment, any ionospheric effects rapidly dissipate, becoming imperceptible over time frames ranging from fractions of a second to minutes. Extensive research conducted over many years at other active ionospheric research facilities around the world has shown that there are no permanent or long term effects resulting from this research method. The following sections discuss these points in greater detail.

[Redtail]

SHC, you were asked what evidence you would accept that would show that Haarp wasn't a weapon. You dodged this question. Why?

[sts60]

Do you really believe that physics are dictated to us by some government bureaucrat?
Unfortunately, people like David C/FatFreddy88 and (from quoted items), SHC, really do believe this. They don't understand science and engineering, but instead of recognizing their limitations, they think no one who does could disagree with them. Thus, if you point out that well-understood principles disprove their claims, you are either (a) ignorant, and fooled by the real experts, or (b) knowledgeable, and lying about it.

One way this manifests itself is FF88's claims that I don't actually believe what I'm saying about Apollo. Since I am an expert in various aspects of space flight, his worldview requires that I must be lying; I can't be telling the truth as I know it, or his reality-shield starts to develop cracks. (This goes much more in the case of JayUtah, but he's not indulging FF88's obsession any more.)

Another way is folks like FF88 and SHC insisting that the record (documentation, data, hardware, etc.) is simply government propaganda which can't be independently verified. In other words, your "government bureaucrat" dictates how things are supposed to work, and everyone except a small group of insiders is helplessly fooled by it. This, of course, is laughed at by anyone who understands the relevant fields, and especially by anyone who works in them.

No, it's not just some Agent Smith telling us that what the space radiation environment is like, or what an HF antenna farm can and can't do. It's physics and engineering, and the experience of practitioners in these fields worldwide. But if you can't stand the results, it's much easier to pretend it's all lies spread by some malevolent government priesthood than to learn how the real world works.

In support of this, FF88 and SHC deploy their own loyalty tests, wherein if you don't agree with the interpretation of some video, or if you evaluate rather than automatically reject information from "the government", you are therefore branded as a disinfo agent/shill/mindless slave. "You're with us or you're against us." The irony, of course, is that they are dedicatedly using the same mindset and method as the entities they profess to despise.

[twinstead]

Well, what do you know? More government trutherism religious mumbo jumbo.

Calling you out on your idiotic and irrational debate "techniques" is hardly mumbo jumbo. Your reaction to it sure is though.

[JayUtah]

Well, what do you know? More government trutherism religious mumbo jumbo.

Well what do you know? More name-calling.

[Craig4]

Calling you out on your idiotic and irrational debate "techniques" is hardly mumbo jumbo. Your reaction to it sure is though.

Funny how he confuses religious mumbo jumbo with an inability to grasp.

[tsig]

It's the Bureau of Approved Physics Bureau.

I believe you worked in the Gravity Division making entire ships sink and rise.

[LSSBB]

I believe you worked in the Gravity Division making entire ships sink and rise.

He spent his time working with tubes filled with Seamen? :D

[TjW]

There's that Government Truther religious tendency I referenced in the 9/11 forum oozing to the surface:

"Think as I do or I'll ignore you!"

How persuasive.

Fixed that for you.

[SpringHallConvert]

Have any of the government truthers yet posted any evidence of HAARP's inability to be used as a weapon?

[scans latest replies]

Nope, not yet. Still just regurgitating whatever the government or HAARP website says.

That's what I figured!

[The Dark Lord]

SHC, what if HAARP is controlling your mind right now? Just to **** with you? Can you prove this is not happening?

[Mudcat]

Have any of the government truthers yet posted any evidence of HAARP's inability to be used as a weapon?

[scans latest replies]

Nope, not yet. Still just regurgitating whatever the government or HAARP website says.

That's what I figured!

Let's talk specifics then, shall we? I'm going to start with the claims that HAARP can cause earthquakes:

So what really causes earthquakes?
Let's first take a look at the earth. The earth is made up of 4 main layers-the inner core, the outer core, the mantle and the crust. The crust is where we live, on the surface of the earth. Below the crust lies the mantle, which is made up of solids, liquids and gases.

The lithosphere is made up of the crust and the upper most layer of the mantle, and is divided up into 12 major plates. As the plates of the lithosphere shift, weak spots, or "faults" develop. When this shifting has built up over long periods of time, the crust of the earth weakens and an earthquake occurs. The place where the crust is weakened is called a "fault".

Sometimes the movement of plates is slow, with great pressure accumulating over time. Other times, plates become locked together and when pressure has reached a certain point, the plates are released and an earthquake happens. If this earthquake happens in a populated area, the effects on mankind can be devastating[Source] (http://www.hlnfamily.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1169:understanding-earthquakes&catid=38:free-unit-studies&Itemid=154).

Now let's ask ourselves, is it possible to induce an earthquake? Yes... in theory. One could drill holes at predetermined depths around an active fault line and set off a series of nukes to cause earthquakes (although the original idea for such a action would be to alleviate stress at faults, thus preventing earthquakes). This is obviously putting aside the ensuing complications.

This is currently impossible since it would require drilling to depths that we can't get to and using warheads far in excess of anything in existence. The energy in warheads currently in existence is far in excess of anything that HAARP is capable of producing and since the laws of thermodynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics) exist and we have such a sound understanding of them we can be reasonably sure that HAARP doesn't cause earthquakes.

http://www.woosk.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/myth.jpg

[abaddon]

Have any of the government truthers yet posted any evidence of HAARP's inability to be used as a weapon?

[scans latest replies]

Nope, not yet. Still just regurgitating whatever the government or HAARP website says.

That's what I figured!
Telecommunications squirrel sez you are wrong, and have no evidence of HAARP weaponisation.

[aggle-rithm]

Have any of the government truthers yet posted any evidence of HAARP's inability to be used as a weapon?


The rational default position would be that it is not a weapon. I come to that conclusion because it lacks one critical attribute that all weapons have.

It doesn't go anywhere.

So unless it's designed to wait patiently until its target happens to move into its line-of-sight, it ain't a weapon.

[Mudcat]

Now I address some other specific claims about HAARP, weather control.

SHC it's no conspiracy theory saying that there's an interest and experiments looking into weather control. It's undeniable, indisputable fact and, what's more, it's not a top secret project or anything remotely new. A version of weather control exists where clouds are 'seeded' using various means since at least the 1950's all across the globe, although the results are debatable. That isn't to say that other means aren't being looked into (and they are) but the potential applications are endless.

However, and this is important to know, international law has proactively prohibited such technology to be used as a weapon. It's just as well if you stop and think about it, who knows what kind of detrimental effects it would have on the environment used for destructive purposes?

So what does any of that have to do with HAARP? Not a damned thing. None of the ideas involving weather control involve involving HF or any other radio waves.


http://www.woosk.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/myth.jpg

[sts60]

JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH, VOL. 113, A10201, 12 PP., 2008
doi:10.1029/2008JA013157

Magnetospheric amplification and emission triggering by ELF/VLF waves injected by the 3.6 MW HAARP ionospheric heater

M. Gołkowski, U. S. Inan, A. R. Gibby, M. B. Cohen
STAR Laboratory, Department of Electrical Engineering, Stanford University, Stanford, California, USA

The HF dipole array of the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) in Gakona, Alaska, was recently upgraded to 180 elements, facilitating operations at a total radiated power level of 3.6 MW and an effective radiated power of ∼575 MW. In the first experiments at the new power level, the HAARP array is used for magnetospheric wave injection. Modulated heating of auroral electrojet currents in the ionosphere yields radiation in the ELF/VLF frequency range. The HAARP-generated signals are injected into the magnetosphere, where they propagate in the whistler mode in field-aligned “ducts,” allowing them to be observed at the conjugate point on a ship-borne receiver and on autonomous buoy platforms. The observation of the 1-hop signals is accompanied by the observation of associated 2-hop components in the northern hemisphere, which have reflected from the ionospheric boundary in the southern hemisphere. The observed signals are accompanied by triggered emissions and exhibit temporal amplification of 15–25 dB/s and bandwidth broadening to ∼50 Hz. Amplification occurs at injected signal frequencies selected in near real time on the basis of observations of natural emission activity, and only certain components of the frequency-time formats transmitted are amplified. Observations at multiple sites and dispersion analysis show that the signals are injected into the magnetosphere directly above the HF heater. The duration of echo observation and the prevalence of 1-hop observations are consistent with statistics from 1986 Siple Station experiments. The particle-trapping wave amplitude near the magnetic equator is estimated in the range 0.1–0.4 pT and gyroresonance with 10 keV–100 keV electrons.
Translation: RF energy radiated by HAARP array stimulates generation of low-frequency waves, which bounce back and forth. Potential applications in communications and (possibly) detection. I think this would be of interest to archaeologists and geologists as well as the military. IndridCold, if you're still interested, note that this is an example of published scientific research describing what HAARP does, which matches the descriptions, stated motivations, and observed (by anyone who cares to go there) characteristics of the HAARP research facility.

[sts60]

RADIO SCIENCE, VOL. 42, RS3025, 8 PP., 2007
doi:10.1029/2005RS003326

Generation of VLF waves in the ionosphere with coherent dual-site excitation

A. Y. Wong
High Power Auroral Stimulation (HIPAS) Observatory, Fairbanks, Alaska, USA
Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of California, Los Angeles, California, USA

E. Wei, J. Pau
High Power Auroral Stimulation (HIPAS) Observatory, Fairbanks, Alaska, USA

High Power Auroral Stimulation (HIPAS) Observatory and High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) are two radiating facilities in the Arctic region separated by a distance of the order of VLF wavelengths. The current-carrying plasma in the E region of the ionosphere above each facility can be modulated to radiate VLF waves via HF heating. Experiments demonstrated that VLF waves can be coherently excited by these two facilities through constructive interference that is sensitive to the phase difference between these two sources.
Translation: RF energy radiated by HAARP and HIPAS can generate low-frequency radio waves. Potential applications in communications and (possibly) detection (see prior post).

[Macgyver1968]

Have any of the government truthers yet posted any evidence of HAARP's inability to be used as a weapon?

[scans latest replies]

Nope, not yet. Still just regurgitating whatever the government or HAARP website says.

That's what I figured!

Believe it or not...some people actually understand how antennas work. Just by looking at the HAARP array, there are many things you can tell about it.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46946106/800px-HAARP20l.jpg

1. It's a phased array antenna made up of 180 individual transmitters pointed up. This kind of antenna would create a very large, wide beam of RF. Not really the best sort thing for a weapon.

2. You can tell from the length of the antenna approximately what frequency it transmits. A quick and dirty formula you can use to find out antenna length: 600 Million / Frequency = ~length in feet for a full wave antenna.

3. The antenna are fixed. As a general rule, weapons need to be aimed...and in order to aim something, you need to be able to move it. The HAARP array doesn't move. So unless they wait for their target to conveniently move itself above the array...they aren't going to hit anything but the sky above them.

If you wanted to use RF as some sort of weapon, you would use a parabolic antenna like this:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46946106/Erdfunkstelle_Raisting_2.jpg

..that would concentrate the RF into a nice, tight beam, and is also movable and aimable. I don't need the government to tell me any of this. It's just science.

[catsmate1]

You guys don't really know what the moon is. Maybe it is really a giant transmitter put there by the inter-dimensional shape-shifting reptilians in order to control people's minds. Except mine, because I am special.
Actually it's an Utu class planetoid warship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutineers%27_Moon) in parking orbit.

[Travis]

Until I see evidence that the laws of physics have been proven to be false I stand by my conviction that there is no way HAARP can be used as a weapon.

[JimBenArm]

Until I see evidence that the laws of physics have been proven to be false I stand by my conviction that there is no way HAARP can be used as a weapon.
What if you took a harp and loaded it into a big-ass catapult and hurled it? Huh? There you go! Weaponized Harps!

[BazBear]

Here's an example of a "weaponized" HARP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_HARP).
http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=810&pictureid=5847

I prefer something more on these lines.
http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=810&pictureid=5848

[PetersCreek]

All this reminds me of a brief e-mail exchange I had several years ago with a HAARP conspiracist who claimed the facility was responsible for destroying Space Shuttle Columbia...and that it's able to modify weather, take down missles, and even destroy inbound asteroids. He stated that HAARP is normally turned on during the summer months, some time before midnight, when the sky is very dark. I explained that our skies most definitely do not get "very dark" in the summer and even provided him with a year's worth of sunrise/sunset data, to no avail. He wouldn't let go of the obviously wrong notion.

I guess my mistake was using Government-provided (USNO) sun data. :rolleyes:

[BazBear]

I explained that our skies most definitely do not get "very dark" in the summer and even provided him with a year's worth of sunrise/sunset data, to no avail. He wouldn't let go of the obviously wrong notion.

I guess my mistake was using Government-provided (USNO) sun data. :rolleyes:Land of the midnight sun, axial tilt, just more gov't propaganda!:rolleyes:

[sts60]

It can be very disconcerting for someone from "Outside" to come out of a bar at 11 PM to broad daylight.

But PetersCreek's experience is typical. Once a dedicated conspiracist decides that the gummint is always evil and lying, anything related to it must be automatically rejected. Even if that is an emprically false notion that anyone who visits the higher latitudes in the summer can see for themselves is wrong. Because it supports their worldview, there's no letting go of it.

Similarly, HAARP in general must have an evil purpose, because it emits things people can't see and it's a little bit out of the way and, of course, it has a cool acronym. But most of all, it's supported by the military; therefore it can't be about the things it's supposed to be about, which are of interest to both civilian and military researchers. It has to have an outré secret identity. It's like conspiracy catnip.

[PetersCreek]

It can be very disconcerting for someone from "Outside" to come out of a bar at 11 PM to broad daylight.

I challenge that statement! Who comes out of a bar at 11 PM???

[sts60]

Ah, well, you see... (shifts weight, whispers PetersCreek's coordinates into button on shirt, mutters "Expedite!")

[frenat]

Have any of the government truthers yet posted any evidence of HAARP's inability to be used as a weapon?

[scans latest replies]

Nope, not yet. Still just regurgitating whatever the government or HAARP website says.

That's what I figured!

Have you posted any evidence that it can be used as a weapon? Nope.

What do you really think a NON-steerable, low power radio antenna can really do anyway? Why did you ignore the FACT that it couldn't be directed at anything over the horizon? Why have you basically done nothing but make yourself look like a base troll? Is that what you really want? Your extreme level of paranoia makes me seriously wonder how you manage to get out of bed every day.

[JayUtah]

Evidence presented that HAARP as presently constituted could be a weapon: none
Evidence presented that HAARP is constituted differently: none

Pretty straightforward to me.

[aggle-rithm]

Your extreme level of paranoia makes me seriously wonder how you manage to get out of bed every day.

Getting out of bed isn't strictly necessary for trolling.

[IdiotWhacker]

Evidence presented that HAARP as presently constituted could be a weapon: none
Evidence presented that HAARP is constituted differently: none

Pretty straightforward to me. This is like a proof for god no one wins at all but for SHC view point if you don't have evidence for anything that is with an event this includes government and independent investigators this is not evdience at all. Yet he has lack of evidence, so therefore he wins automatically, how this logic is supposed to prove a conspiracy I do not know. You can basically invent anything at this point as to what haarp is used for, but it will not break ground. An example of imagination is i can imagine HAARP antennas actually causing their victims to burn with elf waves. Of course The people who are spontaneously
combusting is the general cause of HAARP program yet no evidence is provided.

No I do not believe in that concept, but it is a invention that i thought in my head in less than 10 seconds.

[Matthew Cline]

To be fair to SHC, I don't think he's making the positive claim that it is a weapon, but rather that it being a weapon is something that can't be ruled out.

[SpringHallConvert]

To be fair to SHC, I don't think he's making the positive claim that it is a weapon, but rather that it being a weapon is something that can't be ruled out.

Holy crap. One of you guys actually gets it!

Maybe you don't all have one-track minds after all!

[SpringHallConvert]

What do you really think a NON-steerable, low power radio antenna can really do anyway?

How do you know that that is all it is? Because the government said so? Because you went to an open house? Because you asked a scientist who did an experiment there? Because you saw a picture?

[JayUtah]

Holy crap. One of you guys actually gets it!

We got it before; we just disputed it. The problem is that your argument also encompasses lime Jell-O as a "potential weapon." The fallacy aspect of the argument from ignorance is exactly that nothing can be ruled out.

Maybe you don't all have one-track minds after all!

Insult noted and reported.

[frenat]

How do you know that that is all it is? Because the government said so? Because you went to an open house? Because you asked a scientist who did an experiment there? Because you saw a picture?

Do you have ANY verifiable information it is anything else? Sure it COULD be a giant bowl of lime jello. It COULD be sentient jelly donut. But the only thing there is ANY evidence for is a large, non-steerable, low power antenna. There is such a thing as being so open-minded that your brains fall out.

[JayUtah]

How do you know that that is all it is?

How do you know lime Jell-O is only a food?

I covered this already. If you argue that HAARP as presently described and constituted is a weapon, then you have to describe how the physics of its purported operation would make a weapon.

If, on the other hand, you say that HAARP isn't really what it's advertised, then you have the burden of proof to show what it is instead. Simply claiming that it must or can be something other than what it appears to be isn't evidence or argument.

Do you understand why the argument from ignorance is a fallacy? Yes, the unknown can be literally anything. But it must be exactly something. You only get points if you can figure out the "something" that it actually is. You're still wallowing in useless vagaries.

[SpringHallConvert]

We got it before; we just disputed it. The problem is that your argument also encompasses lime Jell-O as a "potential weapon." The fallacy aspect of the argument from ignorance is exactly that nothing can be ruled out.

Hell, lime Jell-O technically could be used as a weapon. We could easily lace it with Ebola and send it abroad as "food aid". A million people would die, and you government truthers will probably sit here saying, "Ha ha, the government would have told us if they were going to do that! The FBI would have investigated it and told us! Somebody on the inside always tells the truth! Ha ha!".

It's always the same stuff with you guys.

Insult noted and reported.

Ten times as many insults are hurled at me than I hurl back, but I bet you don't report any of the ones directed at me, do you? No, that wouldn't fit the government truther agenda.

[JayUtah]

Hell, lime Jell-O technically could be used as a weapon. We could easily lace it with Ebola and send it abroad as "food aid".

Could you prove it's not being done now, if asked?

A million people would die, and you government truthers will probably...

It's always the same stuff with you guys.

I think it's cute how you always endeavor to try and convict your critics on imaginary charges.

No, that wouldn't fit the government truther agenda.

Do you have any arguments that don't revolve around calling people names?

[SpringHallConvert]

Do you have any arguments that don't revolve around calling people names?

Why don't you ever address this question to your cohorts here who address the opposing side as "9/11 truthers"? Why does it only bother you if it's coming from the other side but not your own side?

[Macgyver1968]

Ummm....9/11 truthers gave themselves that name...not us.

[SpringHallConvert]

Ummm....9/11 truthers gave themselves that name...not us.

I never gave that name to myself, nor have I granted authority to anyone to speak on my behalf.

So, again, if you guys can refer to me as a "9/11 truther", "troll", or "nutjob", why can't I refer to you guys as "government truthers", "parrots", or "dung-for-brains"? Why is JayUtah so fake-offended by my using labels but not offended when his side uses labels?

Maybe it's because he's intellectually dishonest? I think so.

[Redtail]

I never gave that name to myself, nor have I granted authority to anyone to speak on my behalf.

Can you prove the above assertions?

[TjW]

Holy crap. One of you guys actually gets it!

Maybe you don't all have one-track minds after all!

Can you rule out it being developed as a cure for cancer?
No?
Why don't you want cancer cured? Are you a shill for Big Pharma?

[squealpiggy]

Can you rule out it being developed as a cure for cancer?
No?
Why don't you want cancer cured? Are you a shill for Big Pharma?

Well obviously HAARP is an anti-cancer relay that uses its antenna to beam the healing power of radio waves to all the people who have cancer. You can't prove that it isn't.

[JayUtah]

Why don't you ever address this question to your cohorts here...?

"I know you are, but what am I?"

Please come up with a new rhetorical trick; this one doesn't amuse me anymore.

[JayUtah]

Why is JayUtah so fake-offended by my using labels but not offended when his side uses labels?

Because you use it instead of an argument. I try to point out the flaw in your logic, and your answer is always something like, "That's all you government truthers ever say." Try responding to the argument instead of just using everything as an excuse to call someone a "government truther."

Maybe it's because he's intellectually dishonest? I think so.

Keep trying to put words in my mouth. It's really funny.

[Matthew Cline]

How do you know that that is all it is? Because the government said so? Because you went to an open house? Because you asked a scientist who did an experiment there? Because you saw a picture?

Well, for certain specific claims about HAARP, like that it can, at remote locations, trigger earthquakes or control the weather, those can be ruled out by an understanding of physics. Unless you want to say that it can't be ruled out that the government has discovered one or more laws of physics which they've prevented the rest of the world from discovering, in which case you can't rule out anything as being caused by the government, since any event you can point to could have been caused by unknown means by these unknown laws of physics. Heck, you couldn't even rule out the government being responsible for the Black Plague wiping out a third of Europe's population during the 14th century, since the government might have a working time machine.

[Checkmite]

Hell, lime Jell-O technically could be used as a weapon. We could easily lace it with Ebola and send it abroad as "food aid". A million people would die, and you government truthers will probably sit here saying, "Ha ha, the government would have told us if they were going to do that! The FBI would have investigated it and told us! Somebody on the inside always tells the truth! Ha ha!".

It's always the same stuff with you guys.


No, see, it's actually nothing like that at all. It's possible to lace lime Jello with a virus; it's possible to distribute laced Jello abroad as food aid; it's possible that many people would die as the result of such a scheme.

It is not possible for an HF antenna array to beam harmful EM death- or earthquake- or mind-control- or weather-causing rays to the local vicinity or the world at large. In point of fact it's currently not possible for any kind of antenna array broadcasting in any frequency to do those things. It is possible for someone to stand very close to the transmitter while it is operating and get burned; but it's not a secret, nobody's claiming this is the government's nefarious plan to lure people close to the transmitter and burn them, and standing too close to a radar dish or a television station's transmitter would have the same effect which makes HAARP nothing special in this regard.

[Mudcat]

Why don't you ever address this question to your cohorts here who address the opposing side as "9/11 truthers"?

I call you a conspiracy loon, because to call it theorizing is to give you more credit than what you're actually due.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

HAARP isn't a weapon, and it can't do the crazy things ascribed to it by ignorant and/or deluded people.
How do you really know?

As jay Utah said; "SCIENCE!"

How can you determine whether or not HAARP is or could be used as a weapon?

That depends...What kind of weapon are you talking about?

Can HAARP be used to trigger earthquakes?


No. And not just "no", but "Hell no!"

The March 2011 earthquake and tsunami that devastated Japan pushed the entire island of Honshu 4 feet west. It even knocked the Earth itself 9 inches off its axis. Pushing a planet around is no small feat, it takes a staggering amount of energy. That earthquake released 3.9×1022 joules of energy (that's 39 followed by 21 zeros).

By comparison, the W-76 thermonuclear warhead that forms the backbone of the US nuclear arsenal contains about 4.184×1014 Joules of energy.

The 2011 Tohuko Quake released as much energy as 93 million W-76 nuclear warheads (the current US nuclear stockpile contains roughly 2,000 W-76 warheads). This is a HUUUUUGE amount of energy. Every powerplant in the US and Canada working together for a decade couldn't gather that much juice.

But wait, there's more... waste heat is also a huge issue. Everything from coal burning power plants to car engines to nuclear reactors produce gobs of waste heat. The most advanced computer controlled fuel-injected car engine turns about 15% of the energy in gasoline into forward motion. Coal, oil, natural gas plants and nuclear reactors turn only abut one third of their energy into electricity, the rest is lost as waste heat.

If HAARP could cause earthquakes, just using it once would release enough waste heat to turn Alaska into Mordor and end our civilization.

Can HAARP be used to cause storms and hurricanes?

No. Basically for the same reasons as why it can't cause earthquakes... only a few magnitudes of order smaller. Here's an explanation of why we can't use nuclear weapons to break up hurricanes:

Now for a more rigorous scientific explanation of why this would not be an effective hurricane modification technique. The main difficulty with using explosives to modify hurricanes is the amount of energy required. A fully developed hurricane can release heat energy at a rate of 5 to 20x1013 watts and converts less than 10% of the heat into the mechanical energy of the wind. The heat release is equivalent to a 10-megaton nuclear bomb exploding every 20 minutes. According to the 1993 World Almanac, the entire human race used energy at a rate of 1013 watts in 1990, a rate less than 20% of the power of a hurricane.

Again, it's the energy involved. Air is a lot lighter than rock, but taking a thousand cubic miles of it and whipping it around at 200 miles per hour takes more energy than the human race can crank out with all our machines working together.

Can HAARP be used to disrupt communications?

Probably. If you're living within 10 or 20 miles of the HAARP facility, and the scientist who runs it went insane, he could likely deny cell phone service to you and dozens of innocent americans.

...until someone pulls his plug.

Can a HAARP antenna be disassembled and the aluminum rods used to whack someone upside the head?

YES!

Though depending where you live, you can probably get an aluminum rod cheaper and faster from a nearby Lowes™ or Home Depot™

[The Dark Lord]

But who invented modern physics? Jews. And Jews are evil. So they might be lying about physics. Therefore physics cannot be trusted. Therefore HAARP might be a weapon.

QED.

Ha, ha, ha, ha!

[sts60]

To be fair to SHC, I don't think he's making the positive claim that it is a weapon, but rather that it being a weapon is something that can't be ruled out.

SHC is simply (from what I see from quotes) trying to cast FUD, because HAARP is a government-funded project and the government is eeeevil. Therefore, one must automatically reject the conventional explanation of what HAARP does, even though it matches the description and observed nature of the facility, and engineering and physics show that it's not a weapon.

Nothing I've seen indicates that SHC has the slightest understanding of the principles relevant to HAARP, or any knowledge of the facility, or even had any awareness of or at least interest in it before this thread. But, although though he had nothing useful to add to the discussion, he evidently felt compelled to run through his tiresome and vapid script because this project is government-funded, and therefore anyone who thinks the public description matches the reality must be a simpleton or government apologist. Even when they actually understand how things work and he does not.

Of course, as others have pointed out, for HAARP to be a weapon it would have to physically be something else altogether than what it is observed to be. Thus, the reductio ad absurdum to lime Jell-O, or for that matter the Washington Monument or Eiffel Tower or your neighbor's garden gnome secretly being some sort of superweapon. It's not an intellectual dead end; it's an intellectual non-starter.

[SpringHallConvert]

Keep trying to put words in my mouth. It's really funny.

OK, I will. It is kind of funny, eh?

[SpringHallConvert]

It is not possible for an HF antenna array to beam harmful EM death- or earthquake- or mind-control- or weather-causing rays to the local vicinity or the world at large.

Again, how do you know that that is all HAARP is? Because you saw a documentary on TV? Because the government issued a press release? Because you attended an open house and used the bathroom there?

What?

[The Dark Lord]

How do you know that HAARP isn't controlling your mind this very minute, SHC? Maybe they just like messing with you. Can you prove this is not the case?

I am predicting that this question will not be answered.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Again, how do you know that that is all HAARP is?

You're not reading anything anyone has said.

You're just spamming "how do you know, how do you know, how do you know, how do you know, how do you know" over and over again like an automated script.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

But who invented modern physics? Jews. And Jews are evil. So they might be lying about physics. Therefore physics cannot be trusted. Therefore HAARP might be a weapon.

QED.

Ha, ha, ha, ha!

That's pretty much the entire thought process of the primary participant from the other side of the aisle in this thread.

[Mudcat]

Again, how do you know that that is all HAARP is? Because you saw a documentary on TV? Because the government issued a press release? Because you attended an open house and used the bathroom there?

What?

They were paying attention in high school physics, which is all you need to have to know that claims about HAARP being a weapons is BS. What were you doing in high school physics?

[The Dark Lord]

They were paying attention in high school physics, which is all you need to have to know that claims about HAARP being a weapons is BS. What were you doing in high school physics?

At my high school, the stupid kids didn't usually take physics. Maybe SHC's was the same.

[SpringHallConvert]

They were paying attention in high school physics, which is all you need to have to know that claims about HAARP being a weapons is BS. What were you doing in high school physics?

Sorry, but no. High school physics imparts no special wisdom about HAARP and its capabilities.

Do you have anything other than these fantasies?

[SpringHallConvert]

You're not reading anything anyone has said.

Sure I am, but all they are doing is repeating what they heard on TV or read on the HAARP website, as if this constitutes real knowledge.

If you don't like it, that's too bad, but I aim to keep at it until one of these parrots brings real evidence to the table.

[The Dark Lord]

So, SHC, how do you know that HAARP isn't controlling your "mind" this very moment? I don't even know how many times you have dodged this question. Maybe it is the fault of your HAARP mind control program.

[ArmillarySphere]

Hang on, why'd they need HAARP? Don't we already have the orbital mind control lasers?

[Travis]

Sorry, but no. High school physics imparts no special wisdom about HAARP and its capabilities.

Um, yes it does.

Unless you have evidence that there is anything to HAARP beyond the antennae farm that is in all the pictures it cannot do anything nefarious no matter how much someone would want it to. HAARP, after all, must obey the same physics as the rest of the universe.

[SpringHallConvert]

Um, yes it does.

Unless you have evidence that there is anything to HAARP beyond the antennae farm that is in all the pictures it cannot do anything nefarious no matter how much someone would want it to. HAARP, after all, must obey the same physics as the rest of the universe.

Um, no it doesn't.

HAARP looks like an antennae farm, but you don't know if it has capabilities or purposes beyond that which you see. For all you know, it may utilize some very advanced or suppressed technology you are not aware of. You're just making uneducated guesses based on what you've seen on TV or read on government truther pseudoscience blogs.

You don't know.

[Harpo]

Um, no it doesn't.

HAARP looks like an antennae farm, but you don't know if it has capabilities or purposes beyond that which you see. For all you know, it may utilize some very advanced or suppressed technology you are not aware of. You're just making uneducated guesses based on what you've seen on TV or read on government truther pseudoscience blogs.

You don't know.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2ag58a8.png

[Border Reiver]

Um, no it doesn't.

HAARP looks like an antennae farm, but you don't know if it has capabilities or purposes beyond that which you see. For all you know, it may utilize some very advanced or suppressed technology you are not aware of. You're just making uneducated guesses based on what you've seen on TV or read on government truther pseudoscience blogs.

You don't know.


Then enlighten us.

Please explain in terms that may be understood by us poor benighted folks how the antennae can be used as weapons, or would be capable of affecting weather or ANY of the CT claims for the array.

We've provided you with evidence backed up by radio theory and physics - proven to the satisfaction of the "man on the Clapham omnibus". If you want to convince people that there is anything more here you need to supply an alternate theory with some evidence.

[Border Reiver]

SHC moving goalposts and/or attempting to shift burden of proof in 3, 2, 1...

[JayUtah]

Um, no it doesn't.

HAARP looks like an antennae farm, but you don't know if it has capabilities or purposes beyond that which you see. For all you know, it may utilize some very advanced or suppressed technology you are not aware of. You're just making uneducated guesses based on what you've seen on TV or read on government truther pseudoscience blogs.

You don't know.

Nonsense. In case it's not as obvious to you as it is to everyone else, you are the one who doesn't know.

You're reaching out to some mysterious ineffable unknown because you're unable to deal with the fact that there are people who work all day every day with energies, antenna designs, efficiency factors, and all those elements that make up the relevant physical world -- and those people disagree with you. There's is most certainly not an "uneducated guess." It is a conclusion based on a plethora of education and personal experience.

You on the other hand can do no more than handwave about some vague magic. You admitted being unaware and uninterested in the design of HAARP; it was just a springboard for another one of your "government truther" jibes. Please explain how uninformed demands for magic are less uneducated.

I laid it out for you. Either HAARP as presently constituted is a weapon, in which case the laws of physics have already spoken. Or else HAARP is constituted differently than reported, in which case you have the burden to prove just how differently constituted it is, such that it can be a weapon. Vague references to "suppressed" technology are not proof. They're not even a promise of proof.

You will take a big step into the real world when you realize that vague appeals to magic don't make your arguments better than everyone else's.

[squealpiggy]

So, SHC, how do you know that HAARP isn't controlling your "mind" this very moment? I don't even know how many times you have dodged this question. Maybe it is the fault of your HAARP mind control program.

HAARP is too busy curing cancer for the mind control business.

[aggle-rithm]

HAARP looks like an antennae farm, but you don't know if it has capabilities or purposes beyond that which you see.

We know this:

1)It cannot generate more power than goes into it.
2)It cannot direct any sort of energy beyond line-of-sight.
3)Both of these would be necessary for it to generate an earthquake on the other side of the world.

[Redtail]

Um, no it doesn't.

HAARP looks like an antennae farm, but you don't know if it has capabilities or purposes beyond that which you see. For all you know, it may utilize some very advanced or suppressed technology you are not aware of. You're just making uneducated guesses based on what you've seen on TV or read on government truther pseudoscience blogs.

You don't know.

So you don't know much about physics I take it.

[twinstead]

Appeals to magic are boring in a debate. It's a loose-loose. We lose time we can never get back, and SHC...well, he looses the debate.

[sts60]

This is very amusing. I see that SHC is calling "uneducated" all the people who actually understand the relevant concepts and how they work in the real world - unlike him - and have bothered to actually learn something about HAARP - unlike him.

Meanwhile, when backed into the corner by people who know what they're talking about - unlike him - he has finally come out and made clear his flat-out appeal to magic. See, it looks like a big antenna that sends HF up into the ionosphere above it, and it operates like the same according to the work of international scientists who use it, and it has open houses and no airspace restrictions and an environmental impact statement and on-line public data feeds and you can go right up by it with a spectrum analyzer if you want - therefore if you don't believe it might be a magic death-ray, then you believe in pseudoscience.

Funny stuff indeed. At least FatFreddy88 has the anonymous chutzpah to say everything is definitely a lie; of course SHC is Just Asking Questions.

[Travis]

Um, no it doesn't.

HAARP looks like an antennae farm, but you don't know if it has capabilities or purposes beyond that which you see. For all you know, it may utilize some very advanced or suppressed technology you are not aware of. You're just making uneducated guesses based on what you've seen on TV or read on government truther pseudoscience blogs.

You don't know.

That is a very strange definition of an "uneducated guess." Since I'm talking about what is known about the facility and what is known about physics.

You are the one proposing that there is an unknown technology somehow hidden out of sight. Now that is an uneducated guess.

[sts60]

Meanwhile, the government tells me that Discovery is about to land at Dulles, so I have the video feed up. (Discovery was the bird for the first Shuttle mission I worked.) But it's probably a holographic mind-control thing going on. The mind-control nanobots in the coffee I made this morning, and the suppressed-technology bagel I bought, along with the advanced government squirrels outside my window, all are combining to make me believe in this pseudoscience of flying things.

[abaddon]

Um, no it doesn't.

HAARP looks like an antennae farm, but you don't know if it has capabilities or purposes beyond that which you see. For all you know, it may utilize some very advanced or suppressed technology you are not aware of. You're just making uneducated guesses based on what you've seen on TV or read on government truther pseudoscience blogs.

You don't know.

As it happens, I do.

I see masts, crossed dipoles (4 dipoles per mast), ground planes, transmitters, AMUs, baluns, support wires, even bird balls.

There are no other objects present which could be doing anything else, besides the ones involved in the advertised purpose. None.

Do you want to start claiming there is extra invisible equipment?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Can you rule out it being developed as a cure for cancer?
No?
Why don't you want cancer cured? Are you a shill for Big Pharma?


You know, that makes me wonder... Why is it that when every conspiracy theorist goes for the "you don't know" angle, it's because they're trying to suggest the "truth" is something evil. Are there no good mysteries?

It's like they fear their own ignorance.

[JimBenArm]

You know, that makes me wonder... Why is it that when every conspiracy theorist goes for the "you don't know" angle, it's because they're trying to suggest the "truth" is something evil. Are there no good mysteries?

It's like they fear their own ignorance.
No, they fear everything.

[Alareth]

Obviously, everyone here is forgetting that Cobra seized the HAARP facility in 2009 and used it to superheat the ionosphere so they could fire particle beams at any target, anywhere in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Joe:_Resolute#Plot

[JayUtah]

Why is it that when every conspiracy theorist goes for the "you don't know" angle, it's because they're trying to suggest the "truth" is something evil.

Because two of the things conspiracism offers is a feeling of superiority (i.e., you people with all your "knowledge" don't really know as much as you think you do), and an excuse for one's poor assessment of self-worth (i.e., it's the Establishment's fault I can't get ahead; they don't deserve their success, and maintain it only by oppressing others).

[000063]

I really liked that miniseries, much as I often dislike Warren Ellis.

[JayUtah]

(Discovery was the bird for the first Shuttle mission I worked.)

Atlantis for me, although I worked on SSME parts early on that theoretically went into all the orbiters.

[tsig]

We know this:

1)It cannot generate more power than goes into it.
2)It cannot direct any sort of energy beyond line-of-sight.
3)Both of these would be necessary for it to generate an earthquake on the other side of the world.


All you have to do is reverse the spacial field thereby forcing the electromagnetic energy into the ground instead of the antennae, then by the process of controlled synchronicity you can make the tectonic plates harmonize with the tidal flux of the Earth so you can use the immense rotational force of the planet to generate earthquakes wherever you want. Haarp is merely the switch that turns on that power.

[Alareth]

Why do the conspiracy minded get fired up about HAARP but never talk about the much larger and just as "secretive" ELF arrays?

[JayUtah]

Appeals to magic are boring in a debate.

Very much so, because the proponent of magic is never willing to take the magic as far as his critics.

If you're going to give a new capability to HAARP by postulating about "magic" technology that is unknown to professional practitioners (but supposedly available to "government" scientists), then why stop? Why not postulate that we have cloaking devices, that audio monitoring bugs can be the size of skin cells, and that earthquake-causing technology can be so miniaturized as to fit in a pocket?

See, this is why appeals to ignorance are fallacies. If you're going to support an affirmative case by saying that you can't ever know enough to preclude it, then on what basis are you able to preclude even the patently absurd? Conspiracy theorists want to play the "you can't know" card only far enough to support their pet theory -- no farther. That's cheating, because "you can't know" has to apply to everyone in order to work, and if it applies also to them, then they "can't know" whether there are cloaked Secret Service agents following every man, woman, and child on the planet, whether fluorescent light bulbs contain alien monitoring devices, and whether every U.S. President has a key fob that he can press to create an earthquake anywhere on the world.

[The Dark Lord]

SHC can't know that HAARP isn't controlling his mind to force him to post his rants on the Internet.

[abaddon]

Very much so, because the proponent of magic is never willing to take the magic as far as his critics.

If you're going to give a new capability to HAARP by postulating about "magic" technology that is unknown to professional practitioners (but supposedly available to "government" scientists), then why stop? Why not postulate that we have cloaking devices, that audio monitoring bugs can be the size of skin cells, and that earthquake-causing technology can be so miniaturized as to fit in a pocket?

See, this is why appeals to ignorance are fallacies. If you're going to support an affirmative case by saying that you can't ever know enough to preclude it, then on what basis are you able to preclude even the patently absurd? Conspiracy theorists want to play the "you can't know" card only far enough to support their pet theory -- no farther. That's cheating, because "you can't know" has to apply to everyone in order to work, and if it applies also to them, then they "can't know" whether there are cloaked Secret Service agents following every man, woman, and child on the planet, whether fluorescent light bulbs contain alien monitoring devices, and whether every U.S. President has a key fob that he can press to create an earthquake anywhere on the world.
Jay, you can inevitably see the pothole I am putting in his path.

[CORed]

To be fair to SHC, I don't think he's making the positive claim that it is a weapon, but rather that it being a weapon is something that can't be ruled out.

Of course he hasn't SHC's "debate" strategy is limited to saying the equivalent of, "You can't prove there isn't an invisible pink unicorn in my basement. You believe everything the government tells you. I win."

[JimBenArm]

Jay, you can inevitably see the pothole I am putting in his path.
It's okay. He steers for the potholes anyway.

[Checkmite]

Again, how do you know that that is all HAARP is? Because you saw a documentary on TV? Because the government issued a press release? Because you attended an open house and used the bathroom there?

What?

Because literally anybody can walk up to it and take a photo and see that it's nothing but a HF antenna array, as mentioned before by the size of the antennas. Antennas have to be sized to match their band or they simply won't work well (if at all); you cannot for example "disguise" a microwave antenna as an HF antenna. It's one of those things where size really does matter.

You keep missing some salient points - chief among them the fact that it's impossible to do nefarious things at a distance with radio antennas of any kind (short of impaling somebody with one I suppose). So if HAARP is doing something beyond its stated purpose, whatever it is cannot be cause for too much concern.

[JayUtah]

We know this:

From SHC's point of view "what we know" is really just an expression of the limitations on conventional thinking which has been brainwashed by the government into anyone who claims to know about physics. "The government" is assumed to have access to the "real" science, which is supposedly leaps and bounds over anything that can be known by anyone who posts to web forums, and which is used to mislead, oppress, and persecute the masses almost undetectably.

1)It cannot generate more power than goes into it.

The argument from ignorance simply says you can't really know how much power goes into it, or similarly that there is some hidden power source we aren't aware of. No evidence of any additional power, of course, but the critics somehow have the burden to prove no additional power is available.

2)It cannot direct any sort of energy beyond line-of-sight.

The argument from ignorance says there's a form of energy that only "government" scientsts know about, that isn't subject to the limitations of ordinary EM radiation. And critics are responsible to prove that such a form of energy cannot exist.

3)Both of these would be necessary for it to generate an earthquake on the other side of the world.

The argument from ignorance says that the conventional understanding of how earthquakes work is limited and based on government-controlled information. They know how earthquakes are "really" caused, and therefore they can build a machine that causes them. The critics can't know that this is really what happens.

We can't know that the woman doesn't really get sawed in half.

[IdiotWhacker]

Sure I am, but all they are doing is repeating what they heard on TV or read on the HAARP website, as if this constitutes real knowledge.

Can you support this assertion that your trying to make? As if you constitute that this is the likely cause of people understanding HAARP.

[JayUtah]

Jay, you can inevitably see the pothole I am putting in his path.

Indeed. Let's dub it the Anders Lindman Memorial Pothole.

[abaddon]

Indeed. Let's dub it the Anders Lindman Memorial Pothole.
Brilliant.

[JayUtah]

but all they are doing is repeating what they heard on TV or read on the HAARP website, as if this constitutes real knowledge.

Is it your contention that no person who claims to understand the laws of physics really does?

Is it further your contention that imagining things that are not conclusively precluded somehow constitutes knowledge? If so, I'd like to hear you expound further on the broader definition of knowledge.

I aim to keep at it until one of these parrots brings real evidence to the table.

You have the burden to prove either that HAARP as constituted can do the things attributed to it, in which case you'll need to brush up on your physics, or that HAARP is constituted differently than claimed.

No one has the burden to refute a paranoid rant.

[Mudcat]

Sorry, but no. High school physics imparts no special wisdom about HAARP and its capabilities.
You are right, there is nothing 'special' about the wisdom imparted to people who actually paid attention in physics class... to us, it's fairly 'normal'.

Do you have anything other than these fantasies?

I have the laws of thermodynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics):


The First Law basically says that energy or matter can neither be created nor destroyed. In terms of the machine, this meant that the total energy output (work by the machine) is equal to the heat supplied. In other words, the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the heat added to the system minus the work done by the system. Because the system operates in the real world, some energy always escapes into the outside world, thus leading to both inefficiency and the Second Law, which was generated to cover the so-called flaw in the First Law.

The Second Law essentially says that it is impossible to obtain a process where the unique effect is the subtraction of a positive heat from a reservoir and the production of a positive work. Energy exhibits entropy. It moves away form its source. In this sense, energy or heat cannot flow form a colder body to a hotter body. You cannot keep a continual flow of heat to work to heat to work without adding energy to the system. In machine terms, you have to add energy to get more work, and the ratio of heat to work will never equal 100% due to energy expanding away from its source.

The Third Law explains this further. It says that all processes cease as temperature approaches absolute zero. This is the temperature at which molecules cease movement, cease producing kinetic energy. In other words, there is no energy. Source (http://www.physicsplanet.com/articles/three-laws-of-thermodynamics)

In basic parlance what this means that the claims about HAARP being a WMD, a weather control station or a mind control device is patently absurd.

[BazBear]

Sure I am, but all they are doing is repeating what they heard on TV or read on the HAARP website, as if this constitutes real knowledge.

If you don't like it, that's too bad, but I aim to keep at it until one of these parrots brings real evidence to the table.You don't want real evidence, as you constantly ignore and/or handwave away real evidence.

You, on the other hand, have presented no evidence. Again.

[000063]

All you have to do is reverse the spacial field thereby forcing the electromagnetic energy into the ground instead of the antennae, then by the process of controlled synchronicity you can make the tectonic plates harmonize with the tidal flux of the Earth so you can use the immense rotational force of the planet to generate earthquakes wherever you want. Haarp is merely the switch that turns on that power.

You forgot to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow.

[JayUtah]

You forgot to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow.

You should also route it through the deflector dish for more power.

[nomuse]

So...if the mind control physics is beyond anything most of us know, and can do things with an ordinary antenna array that are impossible according to the ordinary physics of the things, why do you need the antenna?

The argument makes as much sense if, instead of HAARP, you were to assign nefarious purpose to a Con-Ed substation, or to a cell tower, or to a picket fence, or to a stack of bricks.

Once you throw out all the tools to analyze what a device can do, you open yourself up for that device to look like (and act like) absolutely anything.

[CORed]

You are right, there is nothing 'special' about the wisdom imparted to people who actually paid attention in physics class... to us, it's fairly 'normal'.



I have the laws of thermodynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics):



In basic parlance what this means that the claims about HAARP being a WMD, a weather control station or a mind control device is patently absurd.

Oh come on. Everyone knows the so-called laws of thermodynamics are a fiction concocted by the oil companies to suppress the development of free energy.

Being an alleged refutation of the nefarious nature of HAARP is just a side benefit. :D

[CORed]

You should also route it through the deflector dish for more power.

But captain, the engines canna take anymore. She's going to blow.

[JayUtah]

But captain, the engines canna take anymore. She's going to blow.

You can't know that. :D

[Mudcat]

You can't know that. :D

You can not change the laws of physics, matter and anti-matter can not be mixed cold!

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I wonder how the HAARPtards explain the existence of earthquakes and hurricanes before the development and construction of the HAARP facility?

What geological/meteorological process caused the complete cessation of naturally occurring tremors and storms so that the kooks could turn every quake and storm into an accusation against the mystical "them"?

Why has a US government facility been used primarily against the US itself, its allies and countries of minimal strategic significance? Why don't hurricanes batter Beijing and Moscow instead of Florida and Louisiana? Why don't earthquakes hammer Iran and North Korea instead of Japan and Haiti?