Crackdown ordered on American nuns

[Puppycow]

Vatican orders crackdown on American nuns (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/vatican-orders-crackdown-on-american-nuns/2012/04/18/gIQANRvWRT_story.html)

WASHINGTON — The Vatican has launched a crackdown on the umbrella group that represents most of America’s 55,000 Catholic nuns, saying that the group was not speaking out strongly enough against gay marriage, abortion and women’s ordination.

Rome also chided the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) for sponsoring conferences that featured “a prevalence of certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.”

Those uppity women need to be put back in their place!

[TheGoldcountry]

Jeez, they're already up the proverbial creek without a paddle and now they want to tip over the canoe. This won't end well.

[HansMustermann]

So, wait, wait... it's not that those are saying anything in favour of gay marriage or anything, but just... errr... what? Aren't rabid enough against it to be proper Catholics?

I have bad news for his assholiness. If you only count the most rabid fanboys as good enough for you, then, congrats, you've just made yourself one of the smallest denominations ever.

[Professor Yaffle]

So, wait, wait... it's not that those are saying anything in favour of gay marriage or anything, but just... errr... what? Aren't rabid enough against it to be proper Catholics?

I have bad news for his assholiness. If you only count the most rabid fanboys as good enough for you, then, congrats, you've just made yourself one of the smallest denominations ever.

But they're *nuns*. They're supposed to toe the party line!

:rolleyes:

[HansMustermann]

But apparently they do toe the line. Just apparently they're not as mindlessly rabid about it as his assholiness would like.

[Skepticemea]

This thread is not what I expected it to be. Neither is it what it should be.

I am shocked.

[Multivac]

This thread is not what I expected it to be. Neither is it what it should be.

I am shocked.

Agreed. Thought it would be closer to "nuns receive a spanking".

:D

[Brainache]

This looks like a job for Whoopi Goldberg...

[Lamuella]

the catholic church couldn't stop its clerics from violating children, but by god will they stamp down on the terrible scourge of not disapproving of gay marriage vocally enough.

[Skepticemea]

the catholic church couldn't stop its clerics from violating children, but by god will they stamp down on the terrible scourge of not disapproving of gay marriage vocally enough.Cos that's what The Gulli-bible says you should do.

[Uncle Otto]

You know, you would think that the dimwits in Rome would read the writing on the wall facing numbers like this--------

"The number of nuns in America has dropped from 179,954 in 1965 to just 55,000 today."

Also--------

"Benedict gave the CDF the go-ahead to take action against the LCWR in January 2011, more than a year ago."

What are they going to do, de-nun them?:confused:

[Skepticemea]

You know, you would think that the dimwits in Rome would read the writing on the wall facing numbers like this--------

"The number of nuns in America has dropped from 179,954 in 1965 to just 55,000 today."

Also--------

"Benedict gave the CDF the go-ahead to take action against the LCWR in January 2011, more than a year ago."

What are they going to do, de-nun them?:confused:They're going to be nun-chucked.

[Evolved Wookie]

If I were forced to do crack off of a nun, I'm not sure I'd pick an American nun...

Oh, wait...

[catsmate1]

But apparently they do toe the line. Just apparently they're not as mindlessly rabid about it as his assholiness would like.
Social activism isn't uncommon among the female religious, e.g. Sr. Stan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislaus_Kennedy), along with charitable work. It seems the Vatican, or at least the former rotweiller of orthodoxy, feels their efforts should be better focussed on opposing access to legal abortion, opposing marriage equality et cetera.
The support of LCWR and Network for US health care reform was particularly annoying to the hierarchy.

However in conjunction with other actions, like the silencing of Tony Flannery (http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2012/04/press-statement-from-acp/) (exiled to a monastery to contemplate his sins), this crackdown may prove counter-productive to the aim of maintaining Roman control.

[Foster Zygote]

Those uppity women need to be put back in their place!

Yeah, in the 7th Century.

[Skepticemea]

Social activism isn't uncommon among the female religious, e.g. Sr. Stan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislaus_Kennedy), along with charitable work. It seems the Vatican, or at least the former rotweiller of orthodoxy, feels their efforts should be better focussed on opposing access to legal abortion, opposing marriage equality et cetera.
The support of LCWR and Network for US health care reform was particularly annoying to the hierarchy.

However in conjunction with other actions, like the silencing of Tony Flannery (http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2012/04/press-statement-from-acp/) (exiled to a monastery to contemplate his sins), this crackdown may prove counter-productive to the aim of maintaining Roman control.

I'm sure they'll be asking what the Romans ever done for them.

[Resume]

Uncle Ratty really wants to turn his ship around backwards.

Well, more backwards than it already is.

[catsmate1]

Uncle Ratty really wants to turn his ship around backwards.

Well, more backwards than it already is.
There are distressing signs of independent thought, these need to be quashed.

Why recently some Seattle PP's declined to use their pulpits and churches to gather signature for a (church endorsed) referendum to overturn the Washington state marriage equality law, including in the archdiocesan cathedral.....................
Phrases like "he couldn’t in good conscience allow signature gathering" were used.
Archbishop Sartrain was not amused. :rolleyes:

[crimresearch]

They're going to be nun-chucked.
Ouch.

[Skepticemea]

Ouch.:D

[X]

More and more I have to wonder:
Is the Vatican trying to drive people away from Catholicism?
Their PR guy is either an idiot or an atheist.

[TheGoldcountry]

More and more I have to wonder:
Is the Vatican trying to drive people away from Catholicism?
Their PR guy is either an idiot or an atheist.

It's like a celebrity firing their fan club because they don't hate everyone else enough.

[Spindrift]

The average age of a nun in the US is 70. They probably think gay marriage is happy marriage and why would anyone be against that?

[Zelenius]

This is a positive development. When a pedophile-enabling, anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-independent thinking cult is plagued by infighting, this can only be a good thing for society. Unfortunately, it appears that protestant Christianity stands to gain the most from the Catholic Church's continued meltdown, rather than atheists and freethinkers.

In my opinion.

[TjW]

Agreed. Thought it would be closer to "nuns receive a spanking".

:D
And after that, the oral sex!

[tsig]

jeez, they're already up the proverbial creek sewage lagoon without a paddle and now they want to tip over the canoe. This won't end well.


ftfy

[Mister Agenda]

When will American Catholics finally break away from the Vatican? They don't need the Pope, and they pretty much ignore him already.

[Myriad]

I know some Sisters of St. Joseph here in the U.S. I attended a funeral mass for a Sister's relative at their chapel two weeks ago.

Every single one of them will silently tell the Vatican to go **** itself. Then confess it and be absolved.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[tsig]

There are distressing signs of independent thought, these need to be quashed.

Why recently some Seattle PP's declined to use their pulpits and churches to gather signature for a (church endorsed) referendum to overturn the Washington state marriage equality law, including in the archdiocesan cathedral.....................
Phrases like "he couldn’t in good conscience allow signature gathering" were used.
Archbishop Sartrain was not amused. :rolleyes:

Seems like they could lose their tax exemption by doing that.

[3point14]

The best thread title ever. The actual content was a little disappointing, as my imagination went riot over the title.


Oh, and if you don't play the game, you can chuff right off, chap(ess), when it comes to making the rules.

[ddt]

So the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith is going to carry out this crackdown? Why don't they revert to their previous name too? It seems the old times of the Inquisition are back. :)

[Marduk]

my father was a nun, on my birth certificate where it says "fathers occupation" he wrote nun
he also was barely literate
:D
I don't think he was an American, though he did talk a load of crap and shout yeeehaa during war movies
:p
It seems the old times of the Inquisition are back. :)

finally a chance at some real power
MBWAHAHAwahahaha
:degrin:

It seems the old times of the Inquisition are back. :)
no one expects the inquisition
:D

[ddt]

my father was a nun, on my birth certificate where it says "fathers occupation" he wrote nun
he also was barely literate
:D
I don't think he was an American, though he did talk a load of crap and shout yeeehaa during war movies
:p


finally a chance at some real power
MBWAHAHAwahahaha
:degrin:


no one expects the inquisition
:D

So what implement do you bring along for torturing? I suggest the comfy chair. ;)

[dropzone]

Social activism isn't uncommon among the female religious, e.g. Sr. Stan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislaus_Kennedy), along with charitable work. It seems the Vatican, or at least the former rotweiller of orthodoxy, feels their efforts should be better focussed on opposing access to legal abortion, opposing marriage equality et cetera.
The support of LCWR and Network for US health care reform was particularly annoying to the hierarchy.[invitation to American nuns] Ladies, may I interest you in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America? It's very much like what V2 was headed for, with the added bonus of not having a pope. I mean, it has a Presiding Bishop, but how scary can he be when he dropped by our church picnic one year? (I think he was driving an Olds, not a Popemobile.) You can become pastors and bishops and get married and even be married to other ladies. Do you want to be community activists? They welcome and encourage it.

[Craig B]

[invitation to American nuns] Ladies, may I interest you in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America? It's very much like what V2 was headed for, with the added bonus of not having a pope. I mean, it has a Presiding Bishop, but how scary can he be when he dropped by our church picnic one year? (I think he was driving an Olds, not a Popemobile.) You can become pastors and bishops and get married and even be married to other ladies. Do you want to be community activists? They welcome and encourage it. How are they on Transubstantiation?

[cwalner]

When will American Catholics finally break away from the Vatican? They don't need the Pope, and they pretty much ignore him already.

Agreed. Rome having issues with the American branches is nothing new. I loved the survey brought up during the RCC vs ACA kerfuffle that 98% of Catholic women (in the US) have used birth control.

In the US, at least, the hierarchy is a very poor representative of the laity. Pretty much the only American Catholic that I know of, who actually seems to agree with the hierarchy just dropped out of the Republican primary race.

[Marduk]

So what implement do you bring along for torturing? I suggest the comfy chair. ;)
I, like the real inquistion aren't limited to an implement, I have a whole room filled with them
guess what I call the room
:D

Pretty much the only American Catholic that I know of, who actually seems to agree with the hierarchy just dropped out of the Republican primary race.

I hear theres maybe a few more south of the Mexican border
:p

[Madalch]

I hear that the Vatican also wants to crack down on nuns in Canada. They're starting a long nun registry.

[3point14]

I've just realised that:

"Crackdown on Nuns!!"

Sounds like a Fox TV pitch.

[ddt]

I, like the real inquistion aren't limited to an implement, I have a whole room filled with them
guess what I call the room
:D

Gitmo? :boxedin:
The Sistine Chapel? (have to get this back on topic)

[cwalner]

I hear theres maybe a few more south of the Mexican border
:p
Oops, you caught me in a moment of Ethnocentrism. I guess I should amend my previous post to US Catholics instead of American Catholics

[Madalch]

Oops, you caught me in a moment of Ethnocentrism. I guess I should amend my previous post to US Catholics instead of American Catholics
Not really- people who live near the USA but are not citizens of the USA generally get ticked off when they are called "Americans". Just like the Scots and Irish don't appreciate being called "English", and the Poles and Ukrainians object to being labelled as "Russians".

[Moss]

[invitation to American nuns] Ladies, may I interest you in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America? It's very much like what V2 was headed for, with the added bonus of not having a pope. I mean, it has a Presiding Bishop, but how scary can he be when he dropped by our church picnic one year? (I think he was driving an Olds, not a Popemobile.) You can become pastors and bishops and get married and even be married to other ladies. Do you want to be community activists? They welcome and encourage it.

Wait, there are still Lutherans in America? They sound surprisingly liberal. Can't be that many then. ;)

[autumn1971]

Wait, there are still Lutherans in America? They sound surprisingly liberal. Can't be that many then. ;)

Well, there's two major synods, the Kanasas and The Missouri Synods, and they disagree about a few things. There is also a very wide range of possible illogic to choose from in the various individual churches. Some people list the Lutheran Church as an evangelical sect, and in many cases this is true-- my pastor was a young-Earth creationist, but admitted that it made no sense to believe such a thing in light of present knowledge. I'm sure that there are other churches that are much more liberal, as well as churches that are much more conservative.
It all reminds me of the Emo Williams joke.

[catsmate1]

How are they on Transubstantiation?
That was my response too.

Agreed. Rome having issues with the American branches is nothing new. I loved the survey brought up during the RCC vs ACA kerfuffle that 98% of Catholic women (in the US) have used birth control.

In the US, at least, the hierarchy is a very poor representative of the laity. Pretty much the only American Catholic that I know of, who actually seems to agree with the hierarchy just dropped out of the Republican primary race.
It's not just the US, the southern Americas aren't as cowed as they used to be and Europe is also getting stroppy.

I, like the real inquistion aren't limited to an implement, I have a whole room filled with them
guess what I call the room
Dare I ask........

I hear theres maybe a few more south of the Mexican border

Actually, and at the risk of being serious for a moment, opposition to gay marriage is lower among catholics [28% strongly oppose, 15% somewhat oppose] than protestants [47% strongly oppose, 10% somewhat oppose]; catholics and hispanics in the USA both support gay marriage in the majority. (Social Science Research Solutions, data here (http://www.nclr.org/images/uploads/publications/LGBTAS_HispanicPerspective.pdf))

[dropzone]

How are they on Transubstantiation?Weeeeeel, as it has always been it's Sacramental Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramental_Union#Distinction_from_other_doctrines _of_the_Real_Presence), which is like consubstantiation but, as far as Luther was concerned, less icky. You'd think the difference between con- and transubstantiation was not enough to go to the stake over, much less start the Thirty Years' War over, but people didn't have TV back then. We're, to a great extent, a group of old hippies, so we don't get our underwear in a bunch over it.

[Craig B]

Weeeeeel, as it has always been it's Sacramental Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramental_Union#Distinction_from_other_doctrines _of_the_Real_Presence), which is like consubstantiation but, as far as Luther was concerned, less icky. You'd think the difference between con- and transubstantiation was not enough to go to the stake over, much less start the Thirty Years' War over, but people didn't have TV back then. We're, to a great extent, a group of old hippies, so we don't get our underwear in a bunch over it. Don't think that'll hack it with the nuns.

[Beerina]

More and more I have to wonder:
Is the Vatican trying to drive people away from Catholicism?
Their PR guy is either an idiot or an atheist.

Remember in California with the gay marriage prop, where liberals were shocked, shocked! that hispanics voted against it instead of lining up in the usual "you scratch my back an I'll scratch yours" way?

Well the Catholic church is dealing wit that on a much larger scale than California.

On the one hand US Catholics donate a hugely disproportionate amount of money. On the other primary growth and size of the church is in poorer countries where more old-school attitudes still prevail.

This is just re-placing their feet while straddling the line trying to keep two important factions mildly happy.

[slingblade]

At first I thought crack-down was probably the optimal position for a nun, but after reading the thread, I have decided I could be mistaken.

[ANTPogo]

It all reminds me of the Emo Williams joke.

Emo Philips.

[fuelair]

But apparently they do toe the line. Just apparently they're not as mindlessly rabid about it as his assholiness would like.I love that word/title and have used it for a variety of deserving personages for a rather long number of years!!!:D:D:D:D

[fuelair]

Social activism isn't uncommon among the female religious, e.g. Sr. Stan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislaus_Kennedy), along with charitable work. It seems the Vatican, or at least the former rotweiller of orthodoxy, feels their efforts should be better focussed on opposing access to legal abortion, opposing marriage equality et cetera.
The support of LCWR and Network for US health care reform was particularly annoying to the hierarchy.

However in conjunction with other actions, like the silencing of Tony Flannery (http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2012/04/press-statement-from-acp/) (exiled to a monastery to contemplate his sins), this crackdown may prove counter-productive to the aim of maintaining Roman control.Coming up from Ratzi's Gang: crucifictions )nun of that now!!!)!

[fuelair]

And after that, the oral sex!I thought the Vatican really has a hard on for choirboys where that sort of thing is involved.

[Peacock]

More abortions = Less children to diddle. No wonder they're so upset.

[Lensman]

Not really- people who live near the USA but are not citizens of the USA generally get ticked off when they are called "Americans". Just like the Scots and Irish don't appreciate being called "English", and the Poles and Ukrainians object to being labelled as "Russians".

I'm not Russian - I just walk fast. ;) :D

[HansMustermann]

I don't think it's as easy as "less kids to diddle." It's something they painted themselves into a corner by infallible pronouncements, which incidentally can't be ever undone even by another infallible pronouncement. In fact, by definition, you can't use your own infallibility to override someone else's infallibility. Of there is a possibility to fail, then it wouldn't have been infallible to start with.

The issue is: does a zygote have a soul right from conception? If it does, then abortion is murder.

Now you or I might go, "who cares?" or "that's silly. Were does one of the two souls chimaera foetuses go?" But the RCC has at least two infallible pronouncements, one by Pope Pius IX and one by the Council Of Trent (yes, ecumenical councils can also be infallible), that depend on Mary (and really anyone else) having a soul and counting as a human being from the instant of conception.

And what makes it impossible to revoke it, is the condition that defines an infallible pronouncement. I'll get into that, because it's funny. And you know me, if there's piss to be taken, I have to roll for will power to not take it.

Basically you know the stereotype of the Internet troll who, when he runs out of arguments, unilaterally proclaims he won, calls you names, and threatens to come over and punch your lights out if you continue to disagree? Yeah, you know that kind of Internet tough guy.

Well, when the church does exactly that, it means they're infallibly right. If they ran out of ideas of how to support something and unilaterally proclaims that that's it, you're wrong, they're right, and if you continue to disagree, you're anathema and god WILL torture you for it... that's what makes a pronouncement be infallible.

Which creates the problem that you can't really roll back any of those two, because that's exactly what they do. There is no "well, we didn't really mean it when we said we'd come over and punch your lights out" way of escape.

So, really, they just painted themselves into a corner. They're stuck with that dogma now, regardless of what science or common sense or societal mores may say on the topic. They may fudge it or change their mind about how much of Genesis is metaphor, and go with science and all, but not really about whether 1 day old fetuses have a soul. Regardless of what science may say, they're stuck with THAT one :p

[dropzone]

Don't think that'll hack it with the nuns.I don't know--modern nuns are a bunch of commies.

[welshdean]

What are they going to do, de-nun them?:confused:

De-frock them. Now!

The average age of a nun in the US is 70. ?

Ugh. Delay that last order No.1

[Ausmerican]

I, like the real inquistion aren't limited to an implement, I have a whole room filled with them
guess what I call the room
:D
:p

The auto da fe?
Or just The Inquisition?

[Puppycow]

When will American Catholics finally break away from the Vatican? They don't need the Pope, and they pretty much ignore him already.

That would make them Protestants, would it not?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Puppycow]

Interesting article in The New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2012/04/nuns-and-bishops.html?mbid=gnep&google_editors_picks=true

[catsmate1]

I don't know--modern nuns are a bunch of commies.
People have been condemning the religious for social activism for centuries, it's nothing new.

Interesting article in The New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2012/04/nuns-and-bishops.html?mbid=gnep&google_editors_picks=true
Very interesting. It really points out the hypocrisy in the Vatican position. It's not the LCWR's doctrinal positions that are at issue or even their political activism but rather activism on the wrong (from the Vatican perspective) issues.

[Marduk]

The auto da fe?
Or just The Inquisition?

no silly, its the spare bedroom
:D

[pakeha]

The auto da fe?
Or just The Inquisition?

Hmm.
You can't have a decent auto without the Santo Oficio, now can you?

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5901/193pxsealforthetribunal.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/193pxsealforthetribunal.png/)

[jadey]

The Catholics are in a great tug-of-war against scientific and social progress. Despite the fact that the vatican has its heels dug in and is straining on the ropes, they're losing ground. The Pope is admonishing the nuns for not pulling hard enough.

[dropzone]

The RCC has long been okay with scientific progress. But yes, social progress is different.

[Craig B]

The RCC has long been okay with scientific progress. But yes, social progress is different. Scientific progress no. http://ncronline.org/node/11541 same as social progress no.

[mikeyx]

Vatican orders crackdown on American nuns (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/vatican-orders-crackdown-on-american-nuns/2012/04/18/gIQANRvWRT_story.html)



Those uppity women need to be put back in their place!

Its cute how catholics think they speak everyone.

[mikeyx]

Social activism isn't uncommon among the female religious, e.g. Sr. Stan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislaus_Kennedy), along with charitable work. It seems the Vatican, or at least the former rotweiller of orthodoxy, feels their efforts should be better focussed on opposing access to legal abortion, opposing marriage equality et cetera.
The support of LCWR and Network for US health care reform was particularly annoying to the hierarchy.

However in conjunction with other actions, like the silencing of Tony Flannery (http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2012/04/press-statement-from-acp/) (exiled to a monastery to contemplate his sins), this crackdown may prove counter-productive to the aim of maintaining Roman control.

maybe its time to tank the Roman Control.....

[TragicMonkey]

"The ship is starting to sink, Captain! What should we do?"
"Target our hull and fire a volley of torpedos! That should help us stay afloat!"

For a religion that's against any form of suicide, it does seem hellbent on killing itself off.

[tsig]

Scientific progress no. http://ncronline.org/node/11541 same as social progress no.

The money quote:

From the point of view of the concrete consequences of the turning point Galileo represents, however, C.F. Von Weizsacker takes another step forward, when he identifies a “very direct path” that leads from Galileo to the atomic bomb.

To my great surprise, in a recent interview on the Galileo case, I was not asked a question like, ‘Why did the Church try to get in the way of the development of modern science?’, but rather exactly the opposite, that is: ‘Why didn’t the church take a more clear position against the disasters that would inevitably follow, once Galileo had opened Pandora’s box?


Evil, evil science!:hit:

[HansMustermann]

The RCC has long been okay with scientific progress. But yes, social progress is different.

Well, sorta, but the problem is that that pesky science is starting to muscle in on territory that previously was easy to leave to religion. Those gaps are getting smaller and harder to defend.

E.g., take the problem of the existence of a soul, and, really, WTH does it do? Because that's kinda central in letting religion have any say in anything.

Just off the top of my head:

1. We know that identical twins start as a single zygote. Then some accident causes a cell to basically split off, and because of lack of the regulating signals from cells around, it implants again and starts from scratch to build a new body.

Do those guys share a soul? Does one get to be soulless? (Even without being redhead;)) Does God supply a second soul as needed? Does God foresee such an accident and supply two souls for the original zygote? This last one opens more cans of worms than is probably obvious.

But that's still the easy problem.

2. Conversely there are cases where two foetuses which should have been fraternal twins merge into one, resulting in people with patches or whole organs with different DNA. I.e., Chimaeras. And there seem to be more of them than we thought.

What happens to one of the souls there, if each Zygote had a soul? Does one get killed off by God when they merge? Or does one get to be guilty of a murder before he/she is even born or capable of such a decision. (At that point not only the brain isn't connected to the rest of the body, to allow any purposeful action, but the "brain" is actually at most a couple of cells that can't function as a brain anyway.)

Or do you get a guy with two souls? Exactly how would you tell? Again, this opens a whole can of worms for those who take a sorta dualist view where the soul is sorta the consciousness. Because there is no indication that those guys have two sets of brain processes.

Or does god foresee it and allow some foetuses to not have a soul, to avoid such problems? Well, then why can't he foresee that someone will be aborted at 4 weeks, and not give that zygote a soul either?

3. About half of them are even a combination of XX and XY cells. If you get such a mixed up guy, exactly how much of him shares in Eve's sin?

These two have been relatively tame too. But here comes the whopper:

4. We know now that in cases where someone's two brain hemispheres get separated, basically they start functioning as two distinct brains, with distinct thoughts, opinions and world models. Even to the extent where one hemisphere is a devout believer, and the other an atheist. Yes, there is at least one such guy that is documented.

How does the soul fit that picture? Especially for those who take the dualist view that soul = consciousness.

Did that guy get a second soul when his hemispheres got separated? Then why does a zygote have to have a soul before its got a brain at all? If God CAN give a soul later, why doesn't he postpone it until necessary in the first place. Just think of all those zygotes that fail to implant or are spontaneously aborted later. Which may actually be a majority. Why does God need some billions of souls coming to him that not only died before being born, but were never even implanted in the first place. If God CAN give a soul later, WTH screwed up reason can he have to not pick a saner moment for it?

Does he have just one soul capable of operating both (half)brains at the same time? In that case does that soul go just half-way to heaven and half-way to hell, if one half is denying god?

Does only one half of the brain get to keep the soul? Well, then we just have a purely material brain that's still capable of thought and awareness without a soul.

Etc.

Those gaps for a god of the gaps are getting narrower and more uncomfortable.

And even for the most progressive pope, sooner or later the time will come when he must decide to either go with science, or admit that everything the church ever said on some domains was just talking out the ass. Including some infallible pronouncements that, supposedly, were dictated by the Holy Spirit.

[TsarBomba]

I heard an interview with the spokesperson for this group on BBC World yesterday. Honestly, I have never heard someone so humorless, dull, pompous, arrogant, self-important, self-reverential, self-centered and jingoistic in my entire life. Much worse than anything I have ever heard from "His Holiness" or the denizens of the Vatican, if that is possible. After hearing their spokesperson, they get no sympathy from me.

[TragicMonkey]

I heard an interview with the spokesperson for this group on BBC World yesterday. Honestly, I have never heard someone so humorless, dull, pompous, arrogant, self-important, self-reverential, self-centered and jingoistic in my entire life.

Yes, most people get that reaction to the BBC.

[dropzone]

Scientific progress no. http://ncronline.org/node/11541 same as social progress no.The reign of his holiness, Simon Bar Sinister, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SimonBarSinister.jpg) will end soon. Then we can go back to appreciating the good works of the Vatican Observatory and the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, which includes Stephen Hawking as a member.

[slingblade]

Nuns are proof that Jesus is a bigamist.

[MattusMaximus]

This is a positive development. When a pedophile-enabling, anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-independent thinking cult is plagued by infighting, this can only be a good thing for society.

Agreed. I see this kind of like the Vatican is a ship starting to sink (at least, here in the United States), and the bishops are acting like a drowning man who will scrabble and cling to anything they think will save them. And they are, in their panic and anger, perfectly willing to drag the nuns down under the water in an effort to climb atop them for air.

I anticipate much more stupidity to come from the Vatican as their level of panic rises. Should make for some good :popcorn1

[Craig B]

The reign of his holiness, Simon Bar Sinister, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SimonBarSinister.jpg) will end soon. Then we can go back to appreciating the good works of the Vatican Observatory and the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, which includes Stephen Hawking as a member.Yes, and we can reflect on the fate of Father George Coyne. See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-401950/Pope-sacks-astronomer-evolution-debate.html .

[dropzone]

Yes, and we can reflect on the fate of Father George Coyne. See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-401950/Pope-sacks-astronomer-evolution-debate.html .And who fired him? Ratzi, about whom rumors regarding his endgame (death or abdication) have been swirling since before his elevation.

[Craig B]

Nuns are proof that Jesus is a bigamist. There have only ever been two nuns? I would say a polygamist surpassing Solomon.

[Craig4]

Have those naughty nuns been lighting the grail shaped beacon again?

[Craig4]

"The ship is starting to sink, Captain! What should we do?"
"Target our hull and fire a volley of torpedos! That should help us stay afloat!"

For a religion that's against any form of suicide, it does seem hellbent on killing itself off.

I don't think it realizes how bad off it really is. The current whacky Vicar of Christ is so removed I don't think he really understands how unimportant he is. He talks about birth control and gets ignored. Neither major US party has an agenda he can support and Catholics are the largest single denomination in the country.

What really surprises me here is the risk they took. The nuns could simply ignore the RCC. Then what? The RCC risks everyone seeing how little power they really have.

[Craig B]

Have those naughty nuns been lighting the grail shaped beacon again? Maybe that's what their spokesperson Sister Campbell means when she says, as reported by the BBC: "I don't think the bishops realise what they're in for".

Whatever she has in mind: Go for it, sister!

[TragicMonkey]

I don't think it realizes how bad off it really is. The current whacky Vicar of Christ is so removed I don't think he really understands how unimportant he is. He talks about birth control and gets ignored. Neither major US party has an agenda he can support and Catholics are the largest single denomination in the country.

What really surprises me here is the risk they took. The nuns could simply ignore the RCC. Then what? The RCC risks everyone seeing how little power they really have.

Airing the whole "birth control is a sin" thing again was a mistake. Ever since the Pill hit the market, otherwise devout Catholic women have been taking it. Four or more kids is simply not feasible for most families. The Church has been looking the other way for decades because it knew that churchgoing Catholic women outnumber the men by a good bit. And in "mixed" marriages it's usually the mother's religion that gets passed on to the kids. Pissing off women is the fastest way to empty pews. Does the Church honestly believe that demonizing contraception will fill its congregations with happy born Catholics? It won't. It will remove the women and their planned-for children permanently.

When I was a kid and dragged to church, you saw ten women for every man present, and half of those women were senior citizens. What's it look like, now? Between contraception and all those sex scandals, whose supposed to show up to church anymore? I come from a Catholic family. The only churchgoers among us now are the surviving siblings of my grandmother, and they're all over eighty years old. Nobody in the three generations after them goes. Why would they? It's a different world, and increasingly incompatible with reality. Two thousand years is a good run, but about a hundred years too many.

[tsig]

Nuns are proof that Jesus is a bigamist.

The whole church is the bride of Christ which puts the men in an awkward position.

[Zelenius]

Come on oh Eternal Catholic Church, come on. Your dogmas and the rules you play by are "eternal", right? So why not just do to these nuns what you would have done say about 300 years ago? What has changed since then? Why are you letting those evil secular humanists and liberals tie your hands? Even if you lose this fight, history will say you went down fighting!

Don't forget how much more powerful you were centuries ago! People trembled at the thought of doing or thinking anything heretical in Catholic lands. When the Pope spoke, people listened. Now when the Pope speaks, people either laugh at him or ignore him, and this includes most Catholics nowadays. Then again, just how "Catholic" are these people anyway?

The Catholic Church is right. The secularists are indeed ruining everything for them. Worse yet, a fairly large number of Catholics are secularists. Can't murder people just for opposing you, just like in the good ol' days, thanks to the secularists. But then again, doesn't God want you to kill people? Wasn't that the old excuse in the old days when heretics were burned at the stake? Does this mean you are now ignoring God, and making God's law subservient to secular law? Does this mean that even the Pope is a secularist? Or has God become weaker? Maybe God changed his mind?

How come no one ever answers these questions?

[fuelair]

The auto da fe?
Or just The Inquisition?

No one ever expects The Inquisition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbcyiFt5VEs :D:D:D:D:D

May not be SFW, but is not in violation of any rule I know here.

[Beerina]

The Catholic church has only made ex cathedra statements twice: The Assumption of Mary (she floated up to Heaven at the end of her life) and the Immaculate Conception (of Mary, not Jesus, where she was born without sin, as if she had been baptized already).

That the church runs around slobbering ex cathedra everywhere is an old Protestant bugaboo.

[Craig B]

The Catholic church has only made ex cathedra statements twice: The Assumption of Mary (she floated up to Heaven at the end of her life) and the Immaculate Conception (of Mary, not Jesus, where she was born without sin, as if she had been baptized already).

That the church runs around slobbering ex cathedra everywhere is an old Protestant bugaboo.No it's not, more's the pity! The infallibility in general of pontifical pronouncements is repeatedly asserted, and it often contaminates discourse within that church. It was copiously invoked in relation to the disastrous encyclical Humanae Vitae. See for example http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/AUTHUMVT.HTM In the first place, let us point out that, according to the teaching of the last council, the doctrinal authority of the Pope and the Bishops is not limited to infallible teaching. The duty of obedience is not restricted to definitions of faith: "That religious assent of mind and will is due in a very singular way to the authentic Magisterium of the Sovereign Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra: this implies the respectful acknowledgement of his supreme teaching authority and the earnest adherence to his statements, in conformity with his manifest thought and desires, as well as with the deductions possible, especially because of the nature of the document or the frequent repetition of the same doctrine or the mode of expression".

[Craig B]

That the church runs around slobbering ex cathedra everywhere is an old Protestant bugaboo. When in 1905 France adopted a law providing for the separation of Church and State, Pope Saint Pius X hit back with an Encyclical Vehementer Nos in which he slobbered the following astonishing statement regarding the authority of the leaders of the Church:8. For the provisions of the new law are contrary to the constitution on which the Church was founded by Jesus Christ. The Scripture teaches us, and the tradition of the Fathers confirms the teaching, that the Church is the mystical body of Christ, ruled by the Pastors and Doctors (I Ephes. iv. II sqq.) - a society of men containing within its own fold chiefs who have full and perfect powers for ruling, teaching and judging ... It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of persons, the Pastors and the flock, those who occupy a rank in the different degrees of the hierarchy and the multitude of the faithful. So distinct are these categories that with the pastoral body only rests the necessary right and authority for promoting the end of the society and directing all its members towards that end; the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors. (My bold.) Looks like infallibility to me, whatever name they choose to give it.

[HansMustermann]

The Catholic church has only made ex cathedra statements twice: The Assumption of Mary (she floated up to Heaven at the end of her life) and the Immaculate Conception (of Mary, not Jesus, where she was born without sin, as if she had been baptized already).

That the church runs around slobbering ex cathedra everywhere is an old Protestant bugaboo.

Actually, that's wrong. There are only two official ex-cathedra pronouncements by the POPE -- well, if you ignore half a dozen more which do meet the requirements anyway -- but church councils can also be infallible, if they pronounce something as fundamentally incompatible with the Catholic faith or being saved.

But even leaving the issue of whether the Council Of Trent is infallible or not -- though I think it would open a can of worms by itself if the church were to admit that it was just a bunch of guys talking out the ass, as stuff from there is pretty important for the current dogma -- the issue still remains that Mary's immaculate conception is defined as, you know, being free of sin starting from conception. As opposed to others who aren't. The clue of it being about conception is, you know, right in the title of the doctrine. I don't think one can keep that as infallible, if they were to decide that a foetus doesn't actually have a soul right from conception.

[HansMustermann]

@Craig:
Indeed, they repeatedly maintain that they know better than the plebs, and it's meant to be so. However, infallibility goes one step further, and makes it absolute truth that even another pope or council can't change any more. The difference may seem subtle in the short run, but in the long run it's pretty massive. You can undo what pope X knew better than you, by having pope Y be even smarter than pope X and say it ain't so. But if it's infallible, then it's absolute truth handed down by God (as the Holy Spirit), and no pope can be smarter than God.

Basically if (as a hypothetical illustration) some medieval pope were to declare, dunno, that the Earth is flat and rests on four pillars, a later pope could still say some form of, "yeah, he was more informed and had better judgment than his flock, but nowadays we're even more informed and can say he was wrong." But if that were packed in an ex-cathedra pronouncement, that's it, you'd be stuck with it for ever.

It's the kind of stuff that is usually not a problem in the short run, but give it a few hundred years and an infallible pronouncement can bite you in the ass.

[Puppycow]

When in 1905 France adopted a law providing for the separation of Church and State, Pope Saint Pius X hit back with an Encyclical Vehementer Nos in which he slobbered the following astonishing statement regarding the authority of the leaders of the Church: (My bold.) Looks like infallibility to me, whatever name they choose to give it.

Wow. I've never read a more arrogant assertion of divine right than that!

[Craig B]

Hans

True. However my point was that unthinking obedience to the Pope is enjoined even where ex-cathedra infallibility is not explicitly invoked. That monarchical centralism is the "Protestant bugaboo" that Beerina was deriding. In fact, concerns about this extend well beyond the ranks of Protestantism, and they are well founded. Uncritical assent to papal pronouncements does much harm, eg in the area of artificial birth control, and in other fields where compassion and good sense find themselves in conflict with religious sexual taboos.

[Craig B]

Wow. I've never read a more arrogant assertion of divine right than that! The first time I saw it, I thought it was an anti-clerical hoax or spoof, and I had to look it up to convince myself that it was an authentic transcription of words addressed by a religious leader, now regarded as a Saint, to the citizens of one of the most advanced and civilised countries in the world at that time.

[catsmate1]

Wow. I've never read a more arrogant assertion of divine right than that!

Hans

True. However my point was that unthinking obedience to the Pope is enjoined even where ex-cathedra infallibility is not explicitly invoked. That monarchical centralism is the "Protestant bugaboo" that Beerina was deriding. In fact, concerns about this extend well beyond the ranks of Protestantism, and they are well founded. Uncritical assent to papal pronouncements does much harm, eg in the area of artificial birth control, and in other fields where compassion and good sense find themselves in conflict with religious sexual taboos.

The first time I saw it, I thought it was an anti-clerical hoax or spoof, and I had to look it up to convince myself that it was an authentic transcription of words addressed by a religious leader, now regarded as a Saint, to the citizens of one of the most advanced and civilised countries in the world at that time.

I believe Gladstone put it well. After the First Vatican Council he stated that catholics had "forfeited their moral and mental freedom" and described the church as "an Asian monarchy: nothing but one giddy height of despotism, and one dead level of religious subservience" and said the papacy wanted to impose its own arbitrary tyranny hiding these "crimes against liberty beneath a suffocating cloud of incense".
Interestingly Cardinal Newman responded by arguing that individual conscience, which he said was supreme, was not in conflict with papal infallibility.

[Craig B]

... Interestingly Cardinal Newman responded by arguing that individual conscience, which he said was supreme, was not in conflict with papal infallibility. Indeed not! Many Catholic teachers have a rather strange definition of what "conscience" means. Here is a modern disquisition on the topic.A well-formed conscience has a voice that tells us how to conform our will to God’s will. God’s will is divine law, revealed to us through Scripture, tradition, and Holy Mother Church. Thus, a well-formed conscience is formed by study of the teachings of the Church. This is brought home by the U.S. bishops in "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship." Four sentences are given about forming consciences, while fourteen pages are dedicated to Catholic social teaching and its application to the issues facing voters. http://www.cuf.org/FamilyResources/conscienceformation.asp

[Scott Haley]

There's a saying in politics that some organizations are looking outward for converts, while others are looking inward for heretics. The Vatican's in full heretic hunting mode.

I love this quote from the LA times:

The Vatican also said that although the conference was vocal on social justice issues, it had failed to speak out enough on other church concerns, such as opposition to same-sex marriage and abortion.

These guys wouldn't like Jesus as he is described in the Bible. That guy talked a lot about social justice issues, and never mentioned gay marriage or abortion.

[Uncle Otto]

----------


I love this quote from the LA times:



These guys wouldn't like Jesus as he is described in the Bible. That guy talked a lot about social justice issues, and never mentioned gay marriage or abortion.

" I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ"

Ghandi

Never a truer word spoken IMO.

[dafydd]

Reminds me of the joke about the Pope and the Seven Dwarfs.

[Multivac]

Reminds me of the joke about the Pope and the Seven Dwarfs.

Don't think I know it. Could you share it please?

[Skepticemea]

Reminds me of the joke about the Pope and the Seven Dwarfs.

Is that the one involving a penguin?

[Avery Dashwood]

The Church is already running low on nuns. Where do they expect new ones to come from? This could rattle the resolve of the few young women left who look at becoming nuns in a positive light.

[Autolite]

I've just realised that:

"Crackdown on Nuns!!"

Sounds like a Fox TV pitch.

Actually, I think you might have something there! They could make it a special feature on "Cops"...

[TjW]

I've just realised that:

"Crackdown on Nuns!!"

Sounds like a Fox TV pitch.

I was thinking it was a recommendation for storage.

[Puppycow]

The War on NunsTM continues:

Vatican Scolds Nun for Book on Sexuality (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/05/us/sister-margaret-farley-denounced-by-vatican.html?_r=1&hp)

The Vatican’s doctrinal office on Monday denounced an American nun who taught Christian ethics at Yale Divinity School for a book that attempted to present a theological rationale for same-sex relationships, masturbation and remarriage after divorce.

The Vatican office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, said that the book, “Just Love: A Framework for Christian Sexual Ethics,” by Sister Margaret A. Farley, was “not consistent with authentic Catholic theology,” and should not be used by Roman Catholics.

Sister Farley, a past president of the Catholic Theological Society of America and an award-winning scholar, responded in a statement: “I can only clarify that the book was not intended to be an expression of current official Catholic teaching, nor was it aimed specifically against this teaching. It is of a different genre altogether.”

The book, she said, offers “contemporary interpretations” of justice and fairness in human sexual relations, moving away from a “taboo morality” and drawing on “present-day scientific, philosophical, theological, and biblical resources.”

The formal censure comes only weeks after the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a stinging reprimand of the main coordinating group of American nuns, prompting many Catholics across the country to turn out in defense of the nuns with protests, petitions and vigils.

[tsig]

The War on NunsTM continues:

Vatican Scolds Nun for Book on Sexuality (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/05/us/sister-margaret-farley-denounced-by-vatican.html?_r=1&hp)


The formal censure comes only weeks after the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a stinging reprimand of the main coordinating group of American nuns, prompting many Catholics across the country to turn out in defense of the nuns with protests, petitions and vigils.

If they just quit turning out their wallets to the church they might get it's attention.

[Puppycow]

Pope Francis to continue crackdown on nuns (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/04/15/leadership_conference_of_women_religious_pope_fran cis_reaffirms_reform_effort.html)

Pope Francis announced Monday morning that he will stick to his predecessor's hard-line approach to reforming an umbrella group representing about 80 percent of U.S. nuns, an organization that Benedict XVI believed was promoting "radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith."

. . .

Leaders of the nun's group were informed of Francis' decision at a morning meeting with church officials, according to the Vatican. As part of the ongoing plan, the Vatican has given Archbishop of Seattle Peter Sartain the authority to take the steps he sees as necessary to ensure the group better toes the party line as laid out by the Vatican and echoed by the American contingent of Catholic bishops. Those steps including requiring the nuns to get approval from the archbishop for every speaker they invite to a public event, replace their handbook, and revise their statutes, along with generally ensuring that they don't publicly "disagree with or challenge positions taken by" American bishops or the Vatican.

[catsmate1]

Damn. I *did* do a search for 'nuns' before starting this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=256887).