Is it wrong to tell a child that god doesn't exist?

[Quad4_72]

So my wife, the lazy Christian, prays with my son whenever she puts him to bed (He is 5). While that is the extent of her practice of religion, my son got a hefty dose of religion when I deployed to Iraq and my wife and kids moved in with my parents for the 12 months I was gone. They made sure he made it to Sunday school and his little kids class every Thursday.

To be honest I didn't really care that much, because that's how I was raised and I eventually learned that religion was all made up anyways.

The thing is, one time I went to put my son to bed and he asked why we were not going to pray. I told him that Daddy doesn't believe in god. He looked confused and laughed at me like I was stupid (Very strange being laughed at by a five year old). I tried to explain to him that not everything a teacher tells him is always right, but he is already completely brainwashed his Sunday school classes.

I told my wife of the encounter, and she became furious at what I told him. She said it's not right to tell a kid at that age that god doesn't exist. My argument of was why is it alright that she teaches him her beliefs and I can't teach him mine?

I now just leave it alone, and my son understands that I am not going to pray with him at night. I will wait till he is older to really talk with him in depth about my beliefs (Or lack there of). So, what are your thoughts on telling children that god doesn't exist? Either with regards to my situation or a situation of your own.

[superfreddy]

The way I see it, the issue is not about your son but about your relationship with your wife. Whenever I deal with my wife, I ask myself "do I want to be right or do I want to be happy?" I always chose happy - keeps me sane

[Denver]

It seems almost impossible to comment on such an intimate family issue. If I were to suggest anything, it would be to just give your son good critical thinking skills as he develops, and let him come to his own conclusions.

[jiggeryqua]

My thought on seeing the thread title was "Are you the mother?". At least you're the father, but alas, despite umpteen decades of fighting for equality your view still doesn't count at all. So the answer is yes, you're wrong.

Besides, your wife is Christian, you manage to tolerate that. Would your attitude be different if your child was a girl?

[edge]

So my wife, the lazy Christian, prays with my son whenever she puts him to bed (He is 5). While that is the extent of her practice of religion, my son got a hefty dose of religion when I deployed to Iraq and my wife and kids moved in with my parents for the 12 months I was gone. They made sure he made it to Sunday school and his little kids class every Thursday.

To be honest I didn't really care that much, because that's how I was raised and I eventually learned that religion was all made up anyways.

The thing is, one time I went to put my son to bed and he asked why we were not going to pray. I told him that Daddy doesn't believe in god. He looked confused and laughed at me like I was stupid (Very strange being laughed at by a five year old). I tried to explain to him that not everything a teacher tells him is always right, but he is already completely brainwashed his Sunday school classes.

I told my wife of the encounter, and she became furious at what I told him. She said it's not right to tell a kid at that age that god doesn't exist. My argument of was why is it alright that she teaches him her beliefs and I can't teach him mine?

I now just leave it alone, and my son understands that I am not going to pray with him at night. I will wait till he is older to really talk with him in depth about my beliefs (Or lack there of). So, what are your thoughts on telling children that god doesn't exist? Either with regards to my situation or a situation of your own.

In yellow: Try to keep this in mind about those who have taught you the opposite. In the eyes of a child you will see, do you know why?

[Cayvmann]

My daughter told me that she didn't believe in God or gods, and I said that I didn't either. I was raised in a church going family, she had been to church quite a bit ( my wife is a church goer ), it never really stuck with me, and she is following suite. I've never been good at lying to myself or others, so when I questioned religion and got the usual circular arguments, I quit trying to believe. I still went to church when the others did, I just didn't participate.

I don't argue religion with my wife. I usually know more about the whole bible than she does, but she has followed the leadership of her churches to focus on the subset that they feel comfortable with. I have no problem with her practicing, but I've told her not to preach to me. We'll see how that works out.

I also told my daughter that if she chooses to be religious that I am fine with that, but I doubt she will.

[madurobob]

I'm in a similar situation, just few years later. I didn't say "god doesn't exist" and didnt press the issue. But, whenever he (very rarely) brought it up my response was "I choose not to believe in things that are not real".

That, and as Denver said, a lot of pushing of critical thinking skills. My now 12yr old son is entirely areligious. But, he has been exposed to a wide variety of religious traditions, so he can better make up his own mind as an adult.

[Buckaroo]

As someone who came to atheism as an older teen, I can tell you that I would have saved myself numerous almost crippling existential crises had I shed the belief earlier in life. The transition becomes much more difficult the older one is when it occurs. I think you'd save your son much later pain if you nip religion in the bud now.

[Quad4_72]

My thought on seeing the thread title was "Are you the mother?". At least you're the father, but alas, despite umpteen decades of fighting for equality your view still doesn't count at all. So the answer is yes, you're wrong.

Besides, your wife is Christian, you manage to tolerate that. Would your attitude be different if your child was a girl?

I don't think my attitude would be different. Why would it matter?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Teach your son about experimentation. Offer to pray with him, and say, "Dear Jesus, if you are real, strike me dead." Then clutch your chest and fall to the floor, motionless.

That memory will last a lifetime.

[Quad4_72]

In yellow: Try to keep this in mind about those who have taught you the opposite. In the eyes of a child you will see, do you know why?

I am not entirely sure what you are asking here.

[C_Felix]

If you are stating your opinion and backing up why you believe the way you do, what true harm are you doing?

Maybe a sit down with the three of you and each gets to say his/her piece.

[godless dave]

The thing is, one time I went to put my son to bed and he asked why we were not going to pray. I told him that Daddy doesn't believe in god.

...

I told my wife of the encounter, and she became furious at what I told him. She said it's not right to tell a kid at that age that god doesn't exist.

You didn't tell him God doesn't exist. You told him you don't believe God exists. Those are two different statements.

Your wife is being ridiculous. You have just as much right to share your beliefs as she does to share hers.

[Quad4_72]

As someone who came to atheism as an older teen, I can tell you that I would have saved myself numerous almost crippling existential crises had I shed the belief earlier in life. The transition becomes much more difficult the older one is when it occurs. I think you'd save your son much later pain if you nip religion in the bud now.

My plan is to insert various bits of critical thinking when it comes to religion the older he gets. I don't think I will be successful with a full blown logic session with my five year old at this point. Also, I am not sure if it warrants the fallout that would happen between my wife and I.

[Quad4_72]

Teach your son about experimentation. Offer to pray with him, and say, "Dear Jesus, if you are real, strike me dead." Then clutch your chest and fall to the floor, motionless.

That memory will last a lifetime.

Haha that seems a bit extreme. I like the concept though.

[Quad4_72]

If you are stating your opinion and backing up why you believe the way you do, what true harm are you doing?

Maybe a sit down with the three of you and each gets to say his/her piece.

This sounds like the worst idea ever haha. If you know religious types, you know this would most likely not end well (Even though my wife is a lazy Christian, she is still very confident god exists). I think perhaps using critical thinking over time may be the better approach.

[Quad4_72]

You didn't tell him God doesn't exist. You told him you don't believe God exists. Those are two different statements.

Your wife is being ridiculous. You have just as much right to share your beliefs as she does to share hers.

Agreed. One thing I also struggle with is every time I hear my son talk about how Jesus loves him and how god is everywhere and blah blah. It's like nails on a chalkboard to me.

[Madalch]

I am not entirely sure what you are asking here.
He's claiming that you only refuse to believe in God because you've been brainwashed, whereas your son Knows the Truth because he hasn't been brainwashed by Evil Atheists.

[corbin]

If you're kid is already that brainwashed about ANYTHING I think it's time to go into overdrive with the other side of the argument.

[Craig4]

Has he asked yet why you don't pray? At some point (I'm guessing not while he's five) you're going to have to tell him that there are lots of people in the world and they believe a lot of different things. I would say right now it's not a great idea to tell him there is no god. Depending on the packaging it might be okay to tell him when he asks why you don't pray with him though. There's a difference between "there is no god" and "not everyone believes in god".

[Quad4_72]

He's claiming that you only refuse to believe in God because you've been brainwashed, whereas your son Knows the Truth because he hasn't been brainwashed by Evil Atheists.

Oh damn, I just now got it lol. I have not been brainwashed by anyone EXCEPT religious types. Me realizing that religion was all made up came from my own doing. Granted it started in these forums, but not because I was brainwashed. It actually started with me countering the 9/11 Twoof idiots, which led me to critically think about other aspects of my life.

[Daald]

I would suggest introducing another religion. Make it clear that it is just a story and not true. At the very least it will create a comparison point.


*edit* When he gets older read the bible with him.

[Quad4_72]

Has he asked yet why you don't pray? At some point (I'm guessing not while he's five) you're going to have to tell him that there are lots of people in the world and they believe a lot of different things. I would say right now it's not a great idea to tell him there is no god. Depending on the packaging it might be okay to tell him when he asks why you don't pray with him though. There's a difference between "there is no god" and "not everyone believes in god".
I actually covered this in the OP :)
The thing is, one time I went to put my son to bed and he asked why we were not going to pray. I told him that Daddy doesn't believe in god. He looked confused and laughed at me like I was stupid (Very strange being laughed at by a five year old). I tried to explain to him that not everything a teacher tells him is always right, but he is already completely brainwashed his Sunday school classes.

[Quad4_72]

I would suggest introducing another religion. Make it clear that it is just a story and not true. At the very least it will create a comparison point.


*edit* When he gets older read the bible with him.

Reading the Bible with him would indeed be an experience for him. I think he would be quite surprised at some of the craziness in that thing (When he gets older of course). I actually read a good bit of the Bible word for word, and I highlighted some of the crazy. My wife took a look at it when we were moving and asked what the deal was. I told her to read some of the highlighted portions. She was a little taken back by what was in it, but would not discuss it further.

[Antiquehunter]

As someone who is in a relationship with another who is not as strong an atheist as myself, I just would say - tread carefully.

You need first of all to bash this out with your wife (gently) and figure out a common ground that works for the two of you. While I personally don't see anything wrong with sharing your (lack of) beliefs with your son, while he hears another side of the story from your wife, this is something the two of you need to figure out, or it could seriously harm your relationship.

As regards what other people (Grandparents etc...) tell your kid, I think you are well within your rights to set ground rules around this - provided they are ground rules you have established between you and your wife together.

As you mentioned earlier, you (as did many of us) come to atheism after a religious upbringing. At the age of 5, probably not a lot of harm there, although by the ages of 8-12 I would think that being a sponge for learning, this is a very important time to make sure there is a healthy level of critical thinking skills being developed, and showing that there is no reason to not apply such skills to the idea of whether or not there is a god.

But more importantly, you need to have an open and frank discussion with your wife about this. On the one hand, there is no need to be so 'right' about something that you cannot sway somewhat, on the other, there is no need to roll over and play dead. Talking about it is absolutely critical in my opinion, or this could play out very poorly.

Best wishes!

[marplots]

"Is it wrong to tell a child that god doesn't exist?"

I'm pretty sure it's a sin of some sort or other.

[slingblade]

"Is it wrong to tell a child that god doesn't exist?"

I'm pretty sure it's a sin of some sort or other.

Everything is.


I'd stress the critical thought, as others have said.

You started that when you told him teachers aren't always right. You were teaching him the "argument from authority" fallacy. Stay on that track, and compile some simple examples for him to think about.

Now that he's been introduced to indoctrination, the only way you're going to combat it is sidelong, not head-on. Emotionality and love/obedience to mother are now in play. So don't teach him what to think as she is doing.

Teach him how.

[Jack by the hedge]

Is it wrong to tell a child that ghosts don't exist?

Seriously, when they were about the same age as your son, I told our two (when they asked) that God was just pretend, but a lot of people thought he was really real, so they should be thoughtful as it might upset those people if you told them He wasn't real.

Little kids can grasp that.

[JoeBentley]

On any moral sense? Absolutely not. We are under no obligations to go along with falsehoods people foist upon their chidren.

In the practical sense it's just never a battle worth wading into.

[George152]

No.

[slingblade]

Is it wrong to tell a child that ghosts don't exist?

Seriously, when they were about the same age as your son, I told our two (when they asked) that God was just pretend, but a lot of people thought he was really real, so they should be thoughtful as it might upset those people if you told them He wasn't real.

Little kids can grasp that.

That's just too simplistic, though, Jack.

Religion comes with a LOT MORE baggage than many/most other woo/supernatural beliefs. You don't drive past churches to ghosts every 3 or 4 city blocks; you don't see public shrines to the tooth fairy; and you only have to worry about Santa-worship one month in 12.

Religion's just harder, more personal, too pervasive, too socially acceptable to treat the same way you'd treat the other childhood-common woo.

Needs heavy doses of crit thinking skills.


ETA: I emphasize this in the case of a child whose indoctrination is already well-advanced. You can't just tell him now that it's bunk. He bleeeeeves, and he's got Mom's support and continuing indoctrination.

[JoeBentley]

//Slight funny hijack//

I get crap for my atheism constantly, but I have never gotten such absolute vitriol over it as I did over the time on a message board that I just sorta suggested that maybe perhaps the rest of society isn't under any obligation to play along with the whole Santa thing and I as a rational adult shouldn't have to speak of a fictional character as if he was literally real in any scenario in which there is the slightest possibility that a child my overhear me.

My metaphorical non-existent God you would have thought I beat the Pope to death with a litter of Kittens in a sack made out of a burning American flag.

[Hecubas]

Sit down with the Brick Testament website with your son. That'll really get the wheels turning.

[Baloney]

I recommend this book: Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide for Young Skeptics (http://www.amazon.com/Maybe-Yes-No-Guide-Skeptics/dp/0879756071) by Dan Barker. I bought it for my son when he turned four years old. It subsequently became his favorite bedtime story. Help him to build his critical thinking skills and understand the requirements for evidence when making claims, and the results will be satisfactory.

Also, when he was younger and didn't want to sleep in his own bed, I made it a condition that he could go to sleep in my bed (later transferred to his own bed after falling asleep) by watching an episode of Carl Sagan's Cosmos with me (available on Netflix).

It should be said though, I'm of the opinion that being raised as a skeptic is much more valuable than being raised without religious beliefs. Without critical reasoning and skepticism, children are equally susceptible to bogus beliefs (such as homeopathy, magic, unicorns, etc.) beyond the ones found in religion.

[Gawdzilla]

I am not entirely sure what you are asking here.

Oh, that's easy. God exists. Even if he doesn't it's okay to lie to a kid. Lovely logic.

[jiggeryqua]

I don't think my attitude would be different. Why would it matter?

I merely noted that you accepted faith in your wife, but not in your son. The obvious question was whether there was a gender distinction in operation. Hypothetically, no. Taking that, what is the difference?

[Jon.]

You need first of all to bash this out with your wife (gently) and figure out a common ground that works for the two of you. While I personally don't see anything wrong with sharing your (lack of) beliefs with your son, while he hears another side of the story from your wife, this is something the two of you need to figure out, or it could seriously harm your relationship.

[snip]

But more importantly, you need to have an open and frank discussion with your wife about this. On the one hand, there is no need to be so 'right' about something that you cannot sway somewhat, on the other, there is no need to roll over and play dead. Talking about it is absolutely critical in my opinion, or this could play out very poorly.

Best wishes!

I agree 100%. Ideally, this conversation would have taken place before the son was even conceived, or before the marriage occurred, but better to deal with it now than later.

You obviously want to ensure that your son has at least equal exposure to your point of view, and that is understandable and fair. But if you feel like you have to hide it when you expose him to atheism, or critical thinking, then it will become a major source of friction in your marriage.

You need to get an agreement from your wife that, now that your son has been thoroughly exposed to Christian beliefs, it is time to ensure that he understands that other people have other beliefs, and that people's beliefs do not determine whether they are good people or bad people. After all, you are an atheist, and your wife (presumably) loves you; you wouldn't want your son growing up thinking that anyone who doesn't love Jesus is a bad person, and (I hope) your wife wouldn't either. The best way for him to understand is to show him that people he knows to be good (mommy and daddy) believe different things, but they are both good people and they love each other and respect each other's beliefs.

This is how my wife and I have proceeded in our marriage (coming up on our 15th anniversary). We have two kids, and they go to church with my wife when she goes (which is about one week out of three, on average), but it's a very liberal church. They also get exposed to lots of science (my wife has a PhD in a scientific field) and lots of mythology from other cultures as well as discussions about other religions. The result? My son, about to turn 9, is pretty skeptical generally and I'm pretty sure he'll be an atheist. My daughter, 6, is a big fan of Bible stories and church, but then again, she's also a big fan of Disney princesses and stories about fairies. I'm not sure she won't end up religious, but I won't love her any less if she does.

[MattusMaximus]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_77474b2ade733e4ce.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=18500)

[devnull]

I merely noted that you accepted faith in your wife, but not in your son. The obvious question was whether there was a gender distinction in operation. Hypothetically, no. Taking that, what is the difference?

His wife is already indoctrinated, and an adult?


OP: My wife is catholic, Im an atheist. I pull no punches with my kids and reality. My wife has gotten used to it.

[Rasmus]

I would suggest introducing another religion. Make it clear that it is just a story and not true. At the very least it will create a comparison point.


*edit* When he gets older read the bible with him.

Convert to a religion that utterly incompatible with your wife's!

Actual Catholicism seems like a good choice, but you might want to go form seomething a little more entertaining and bizzare.

[Eddie Dane]

I'd say, include God in the difficult Santa Claus talk.

Dad, you mean to say that Santa doesn't exist?

No son, we can never be 100% sure about anything. but in the case of God and Santa, I'm pretty confident.

[geni]

So, what are your thoughts on telling children that god doesn't exist?

You cannot in all good conscience tell him that Odin doesn't exist. If Ragnarök actually happens thinking that those involved aren't real will just make a bad situation worse.

You've also got to consider the vaccination issue.

[Eddie Dane]

I'd say, include God in the difficult Santa Claus talk.

Dad, you mean to say that Santa doesn't exist?

No son, we can never be 100% sure about anything. but in the case of God and Santa, I'm pretty confident.

ETA: I see Mattus beat me to it.

[Abooga]

I think belief in supernatural things seems to be a necessity for some people, something that is determined by personality and to a great extent is independent of education etc. That´s why there are so many doctors who believe in crap, and indoctrinated people who clearly see through the ********. I think I read someting in this regard recently, something about the "believer gene".

So if your kid has the "atheist gene" you will easily get him to reject indoctrination. If he has the "believer gene", he will dig Christian myth, "energies", conspiracies or whatever...

[Eddie Dane]

Convert to a religion that utterly incompatible with your wife's!

Actual Catholicism seems like a good choice, but you might want to go form seomething a little more entertaining and bizzare.

Scientology!

Oh wait, expensive.

[Joey McGee]

Life is sometimes better lived on what will make everyone happy than rocking the boat based on some principle you have. But me, I would fully educate my son on everything that I personally think and why. And I wouldn't pull any punches no matter if my wife left me. Dawkins and Barker have good kids books, but forget that, if he thinks Jesus loves him introduce him to Richard Carrier's arguments against the resurrection asap. Kids might not understand everything at the time but it plants a seed and keeps the wheels turning.

I know what it's like to be in love with someone who is into woo and religion in a way that drives me insane and not have the heart to leave them or risk the relationship over it. But I also know what it's like to look back at those wasted, frustrating, hollow times feeling like a coward, like a poorly evolved primate, shuddering at the thought of sharing custody and fighting a ideological battle by proxy, bowing my head in shame for tolerating what I did, giving into the power of a virus that had a hold on the woman I loved most in the world.

In this situation, to put it perfectly objectively, the opportunity cost is where the real harm is. Sure, life will go on, people will go along to get along, he'll have a supreme quality life anyways, enjoy himself, and most likely come around to your side over time just because you happen to have the better arguments.

But I second Buckaroo, my early religious upbringing not only led to many psychological challenges, but opened the door to far more destructive woo; I'd had spiritual experiences because of the religion, but stopped believing in the church, so I went on to explore more "spiritual experiences". Some people have a tougher time than others letting go of the early childhood programming and it influences their thinking in tough times for the rest of their lives, certainly true for me.

ETA: I think it's wrong to tell a child that God doesn't exist in a way unless you are debunking a specific definition of God like Victor Stenger has tried to do. It's fine to tell them you don't see any evidence or reason to believe in such a thing. Philosophically that's how most of us put it, no? Dawkins is a 6.9 atheist on a scale of 1 to 7 for example. Cheers

[Rasmus]

if he thinks Jesus loves him

That is really such a cruel thing to teach a child.

Seriously: Ask him to invite Jesus to his birthday party -see how well that ends. :boxedin:

I think at best it undermines the relationship between a child and the parents: Yeah, mommy and daddy kinda love you, but not nearly as much as that dude who never calls, never comes round to play, ...

[Abooga]

On a related topic, my sister in law is dying of cancer and I think we shall tell her 3 y.o. kid that she´s gone to heaven, to mitigate the trauma. When he´s older he will have time to think about these things by himself.

[Rasmus]

On a related topic, my sister in law is dying of cancer and I think we shall tell her 3 y.o. kid that she´s gone to heaven, to mitigate the trauma. When he´s older he will have time to think about these things by himself.

Why would that make it better for the child?

I've said this before: I have been to funerals of religious people with releigous relatives at the funeral. For some bizzar reason nobody seeemd to be very happy or envious...

[Abooga]

Why would that make it better for the child?

I've said this before: I have been to funerals of religious people with releigous relatives at the funeral. For some bizzar reason nobody seeemd to be very happy or envious...

Because the child, being only 3 years old, will believe it at face value that his mum is not really dead but is happily residing in a wonderful resort called Heaven, and he can see her star at night winking away at him etc. He´ll be devastated of course because he will come to understand that he can never see her again, but I think this is less cruel that telling him "your mum is cold meat, boy. Deal with it".

[slingblade]

On a related topic, my sister in law is dying of cancer and I think we shall tell her 3 y.o. kid that she´s gone to heaven, to mitigate the trauma. When he´s older he will have time to think about these things by himself.

When you start with a lie, there's no room left for the truth.

Don't fill that child's head with fantasy in order to assuage your guilt or sadness. He can't understand death at 3 years old, no matter what fairy stories you make up to "feel better." He's not going to "feel better."

Talk to a professional in child grief counseling before you go off on any half-cocked notions and harm that child even more.

[devnull]

Because the child, being only 3 years old, will believe it at face value that his mum is not really dead but is happily residing in a wonderful resort called Heaven.....

.... and doesnt think he is worthwhile to visit.

[NeilC]

I've sort of had the same thing with my family. I get into trouble if I'm "too atheist" with the kids. She claims that they should decide for themselves. I agree but I don't think that allowing them to be indoctrinated by the school and relatives IS making up their own mind. If adults around them assumes god exists then they will too since they are only kids. Since that is what generally happens I think I need to present the other case, or at least express my opinions and ask them questions to allow enough balance for them to make up their own minds.

In reality they cannot make up their own minds at a young age. My son identifies with my the most strongly at the moment so he believes what I believe. So even trying to be balanced doesn't work.

[Abooga]

When you start with a lie, there's no room left for the truth.

Don't fill that child's head with fantasy in order to assuage your guilt or sadness. He can't understand death at 3 years old, no matter what fairy stories you make up to "feel better." He's not going to "feel better."

Talk to a professional in child grief counseling before you go off on any half-cocked notions and harm that child even more.

Well, her family is quite religious so there´s no avoiding them telling him that she´s going to heaven, really. It is so painful to think about him suffering (I love this kid so much). Hard to think what to do, but thanks for the idea of finding proffesional counseling.

[Professor Yaffle]

On a related topic, my sister in law is dying of cancer and I think we shall tell her 3 y.o. kid that she´s gone to heaven, to mitigate the trauma. When he´s older he will have time to think about these things by himself.

A 3 year old is unlikely to properly understand anyway. If you tell them the person has "gone to heaven" they will be wondering when the person will come back as at that age they see death as something reversible and that is emphasised if you describe death as going to a place. I have been in the unenviable position of telling my 4 year old son that his dad died. Even though I made it clear to him that his dad had died and was never going to be coming back, it was a long time before he understood that. On the plus side though, he didn't seem to find it as traumatic as his older brother who did have a bit more understanding of the finality of it.

Using euphemisms, and trying to soften the blow with younger children is never a good idea because they will likely misunderstand. Even if you explain everything by the book, there is scope for the child to misunderstand due to their age. We made a memory box for their dad, so they could put in photos, belongings and other things that reminded them of their dad. Euan was very enthusiastic about helping with it. Then one day we were talking about the box, and he said it was something we were going to take to daddy in hospital. That was probably the hardest thing I had to cope with, having to repeatedly tell him that his dad wasn't coming back, because it hadn't properly sunk in, or been understood the last time.

There are a lot of good resources out there for helping a bereaved child cope with their loss, I would look into those if I were you. Hopefully the surviving parent will probably have access to a bereavement counsellor or specialist social worker who will be able to help guide him through it.

Here are a couple of resources I found helpful:

http://www.hospicenet.org/html/understand.html
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/yf/famsci/fs441w.htm
http://www.winstonswish.org.uk/page.asp?section=0001000100020005&pagetitle=Talking+about+death

The Winston's Wish one in particular is an excellent website.

PM me if you want to talk about this some more.

[Rincewind]

Of course, you could always show him any of Doc's threads...

[JoeBentley]

A 3 year old is unlikely to properly understand anyway. If you tell them the person has "gone to heaven" they will be wondering when the person will come back as at that age they see death as something reversible and that is emphasised if you describe death as going to a place.

This is sorta what bugs me about the whole "It's okay to lie to children to make them feel better" idea. From a certain point of view so many of the lies make things worse.

Denying a child closure, even in the severly limited way they can understand it, doesn't strike me as a caring, moral action.

[Professor Yaffle]

From the Winston's Wish page:

Families try to tell their children what they believe about life after death. Some families may believe in a heaven or another place beyond this world. Some may believe that the person who has died is a star, or an angel, or is ‘all around us’. Some may believe that the dead person will be reborn in some form. Some may believe that death is an ending.

Young children sometimes misunderstand what these ideas mean. Children have told us that if the person who has died has gone to heaven or is watching over them that they worry whether they will be seen when they are being naughty or want to be private. They wonder why their parents don’t ring or write from heaven. They struggle to understand how grandad can become a planet.

‘Mummy said daddy had gone to heaven. But she won’t take me to see him'.

'Granny lives in Cornwall so I don’t see why we can’t go and visit him: you go through heaven to get there.’

‘Gran says mum can see me all the time. So she must have seen me hide the sweets. She won’t love me any more because I said I hadn’t.’

It may be best to say something like: ‘People have all sorts of beliefs about what happens after someone dies. We know that they can’t come back and visit us or ring on the phone. Being dead isn’t like being in another country. These are some of the things that people believe … and I believe this … I wonder what you believe? You may change what you believe as you grow older’.

[Abooga]

Very interesting thoughts from you all, thanks. Sorry to hear about your loss, Prof. I´ll check those links tonight. I just discussed the idea of a counselor or psychologist with my family and the consensus was "why didn´t we think about that already!"

I didn´t mean to hijack the thread, I should have started a new one, perhaps.

The logic behind my idea of lying to my nephew was that I thought perhaps he would kind of "forget" about his mum, but I´m starting to think that it is not possible or even a good idea... The thing is that about a year ago when she was diagnosed she left and went to a hospital and hasn´t seen her son until she came back a couple months ago (with only about 3 months to live). At the beginning the kid was missing her a lot but after a few months he kind of stopped asking about her so much and he seemed happier. In fact, my thoughts were that if I were his mum I would´t have come back to be with him for like three months and then die on him. That seemed to me too cruel. I thought I would have just let him be, it seemed to me the least selfish thing to do.

But who knows.

So in that line of thought I wondered that perhaps not having to fully confront the fact of the death of his mum would be the best thing for the kid. But now I´m not so sure any more.

What a hearbreaking situation.

[Eddie Dane]

The focus of this thread seems to have shifted to telling a child about death.

I have young children and find this topic very enlightening. I must admit that I might have taken the 'he's gone to heaven' approach.
After reading this thread, I'll won't do that. (And let's hope I won't have to, for a while)

[Dunstan]

Because the child, being only 3 years old, will believe it at face value that his mum is not really dead but is happily residing in a wonderful resort called Heaven, and he can see her star at night winking away at him etc. He´ll be devastated of course because he will come to understand that he can never see her again, but I think this is less cruel that telling him "your mum is cold meat, boy. Deal with it".

Gee, if only there was a way to not lie to children other than to say "cold meat ... deal with it."

[JoeBentley]

Nope. Loving God / Cold Meat. Those are your options, take them or leave them.

[truethat]

You seem to have a lack of respect towards your wife. I don't think the future problem for your kid is going to have anything to do with god belief. But more it's going to be how to treat his wife with respect (if he's straight and wants to get married) even if his views differ than hers. It can be done you know. This kind of passive aggressive disgust towards your wife will definitely be picked up.

[NewtonTrino]

What's wrong here is letting your wife indoctrinate your child in the first place.

Then again I would never get into a relationship with someone religious either.

[Abooga]

Gee, if only there was a way to not lie to children other than to say "cold meat ... deal with it."

Well, I didn´t accept mortality until I was 13. (And I think that´s unusually precocious, most people I know haven´t accepted it yet). So I don´t think a 3 y.o. is equipped to understand death, much less cope with the idea. With "cold meat" I meant that it seems cruel to tell a small child about these things without some adornment. I think you do understand what I meant, anyway.

[Professor Yaffle]

Back to the OP. I would just be honest with your son about your own (lack of) beliefs, without trying to push it onto him. Just having a non-believer in the house is likely to make him grow up a little more questioning than the average child in a religious household. Answer any questions he has about it honestly, but don't go out of your way to "preach" atheism at every opportunity. Give him the skills to make his own decisions in life.

[slingblade]

Well, her family is quite religious so there´s no avoiding them telling him that she´s going to heaven, really. It is so painful to think about him suffering (I love this kid so much). Hard to think what to do, but thanks for the idea of finding proffesional counseling.

You're quite welcome.

You cannot control or do much about what his father or grandparents do, but you can refuse to help them or participate. Just remember that. You don't have to be complicit.

Also, death is painful for those of us remaining. Hiding this truth in Fluffy Cloudy Heaven-land does the child no service in dealing with his grief.

[truethat]

In our home my husband is an agnostic and I am an atheist, my kids father from my first marriage is a practicing Muslim and my youngest is out of the loop really. He's never been raised in a religion except when he went to Greek school.

I don't know why parents make such a big deal of this. It's as if you want your own personal truth to be their own personal truth. Let the kid be exposed to everything and make his own choice. It's not that hard to tell a little kid "Well your father believes in Mohammed (or Jesus or whatever) and I don't so he can tell you what he believes and I'll share mine with you."

What's the difference? Why do people make problems when there aren't problems? Oh I know, because they want the kid to agree with THEM and that's the problem.

Is there the same kind of debate about what the music is in the world? If your wife likes country western and you like hip hop do you try to get your kid to only like what you like? People need to grow up and get over trying to be so controlling about what other people believe. This is both believers and atheists.

[slingblade]

The focus of this thread seems to have shifted to telling a child about death.

Not really. We're simply looking at another aspect of the overall problem of telling kids about god.

It has myriad aspects; no derail to discuss some of them in more depth.
YMMV, of course. :)

I have young children and find this topic very enlightening. I must admit that I might have taken the 'he's gone to heaven' approach.
After reading this thread, I'll won't do that. (And let's hope I won't have to, for a while)

Putting the E in JREF. :D

[Professor Yaffle]

Also, death is painful for those of us remaining. Hiding this truth in Fluffy Cloudy Heaven-land does the child no service in dealing with his grief.

This. You can't prevent the child from being in pain. All you can do is comfort him and be there for him when he needs you.

[jasonpatterson]

I think that the degree to which you respond to this needs to depend in large part on the actual material that your wife and her parents are telling the kid. If it's the Buddy Jesus version of christianity, that's one thing. I'd work on critical thinking and talk about myths and explain your way of looking at the world to your daughter. If it's the fire and brimstone, you're a disgusting sinner, kill the gays version of christianity, my daughter wouldn't be seeing her grandparents unsupervised anymore, and we'd leave at the slightest mention of religion.

Even with the Buddy Jesus version of things, I'd be sure to address anything ridiculous like creationism/Noah ASAP.

[marplots]

It seems to me you have the opportunity to teach an important lesson: people have different opinions and they can be passionate about their beliefs.

This is a more useful lesson than just making a pro or anti Jesus claim.

[Noztradamus]

Don't tell him God doesn't exist. he won't understand how someone everybody treats as real, isn't. Explain that He is an anthropomorphic personification of a human concept. Like the Easter Bunny, or Barack Obama :)

[Mudcat]

Is it wrong to tell a child that a horrible and mean spirited spirit that stalks them and watches their every movement, and will condemn them to an eternity in an unfathomably terrible place for not believing and worshiping them doesn't exist? I think it's more wrong not to.

[TragicMonkey]

I'd say, include God in the difficult Santa Claus talk.

Dad, you mean to say that Santa doesn't exist?

No son, we can never be 100% sure about anything. but in the case of God and Santa, I'm pretty confident.

"Well, son, there used to be both God and Santa. But there was bad blood between them, and back in 1865 they ran into each other in a saloon in the Old West. Sure enough there was an argument, then a fight, then one of those gun-duels. Both were expert shots, as you'd expect. They stepped off, counted three, turned, and fired. God shot Santa right through the heart, and Santa got God right in the forehead. Both dead in the same instant. The townsfolk buried the bodies and denied the two were ever there.

Tomorrow I'll tell you about the time the Easter Bunny met Jesus, and the world discovered that rabbit meat is kosher and that eating a creature that lays chocolate eggs can trigger a fatal attack of insulin shock."

[tsig]

Because the child, being only 3 years old, will believe it at face value that his mum is not really dead but is happily residing in a wonderful resort called Heaven, and he can see her star at night winking away at him etc. He´ll be devastated of course because he will come to understand that he can never see her again, but I think this is less cruel that telling him "your mum is cold meat, boy. Deal with it".

Might as well lie to him that way he can get used to religious thinking at a young age.

[Noztradamus]

~~~~

Tomorrow I'll tell you about the time the Easter Bunny met Jesus, and the world discovered that rabbit meat is kosher and that eating a creature that lays chocolate eggs can trigger a fatal attack of insulin shock."

http://gointothelight.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/dadbandwandcolour.jpg

[Ron_Tomkins]

Of course, you could always show him any of Doc's threads...

:D

[Dunstan]

Well, I didn´t accept mortality until I was 13. (And I think that´s unusually precocious, most people I know haven´t accepted it yet). So I don´t think a 3 y.o. is equipped to understand death, much less cope with the idea.

A three year old isn't equipped to understand Newton's laws of motion, principles of lift and aerodynamics, either, but that doesn't mean that we should tell them all that airplanes fly because angels hold them up.

And, along the lines of what slingblade said above, I don't think we should define "coping" with a parent's death as "happily convinced that everything is ok." Children are entitled to grieve and be unhappy, too, and probably need to do so at least as much as the rest of us. (And it would be a particularly unobservant child who didn't notice that all of the adults who keep saying that mommy's in heaven and happy still are crying and upset.)

With "cold meat" I meant that it seems cruel to tell a small child about these things without some adornment. I think you do understand what I meant, anyway.

Well, I understood that you were portraying harsh and callous statements like "cold meat, deal with it" as the only viable alternative to making up stories about heaven. What I don't know is whether you genuinely can't imagine another alternative (in which case, I think other posters have suggested some, as well as pointing out how the conventional "mommy's in heaven watching over you" narrative may not be as comforting as is commonly assumed), or if you could but were trying to score a cheap rhetorical point through false dichotomy.

[godless dave]

I don't know why parents make such a big deal of this. It's as if you want your own personal truth to be their own personal truth. Let the kid be exposed to everything and make his own choice. It's not that hard to tell a little kid "Well your father believes in Mohammed (or Jesus or whatever) and I don't so he can tell you what he believes and I'll share mine with you."


That's precisely what the OP did, and his wife yelled at him for it.

[GrandMasterFox]

Of course, you could always show him any of Doc's threads...
Best post ever

[leon_heller]

I doubt if it makes much difference in the long run. I was brought up RC, saw the light when I was about 15, and became a devout atheist. I've known people who weren't particularly religious when they were young, did something like the Alpha course, and really got into it. The Jesuits used to say something like "Give me a child until he is seven, and he is mine for life!" I'm not sure how true it is, though.

[Quad4_72]

Of course, you could always show him any of Doc's threads...

If there was a "Like" option, I would you my mouse to click on it for this post.

[TragicMonkey]

The Jesuits used to say something like "Give me a child until he is seven, and he is mine for life!"

Yeah, but were they actually trying to make a point about indoctrination, or just cruising for under-seven kids?

[Baloney]

Yeah, but were they actually trying to make a point about indoctrination, or just cruising for under-seven kids?

I'm guessing the latter.

[Loss Leader]

So, what are your thoughts on telling children that god doesn't exist? Either with regards to my situation or a situation of your own.


If you are wrong, it's in sending your child an inconsistent message. However, when both parents agree to raise their child without religion, there's nothing "wrong" about it.

[dafydd]

I am not entirely sure what you are asking here.

Nobody ever does understand his garbled syntax and appalling misuse of English.

[Jeff Corey]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_77474b2ade733e4ce.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=18500)

Nice. That reminds me of a friend of ours whose 4 year old asked her what god was. She replied, "A Santa Claus that big people believe in."

[Rasmus]

In our home my husband is an agnostic and I am an atheist, my kids father from my first marriage is a practicing Muslim and my youngest is out of the loop really. He's never been raised in a religion except when he went to Greek school.

I don't know why parents make such a big deal of this. It's as if you want your own personal truth to be their own personal truth. Let the kid be exposed to everything and make his own choice. It's not that hard to tell a little kid "Well your father believes in Mohammed (or Jesus or whatever) and I don't so he can tell you what he believes and I'll share mine with you."

What's the difference? Why do people make problems when there aren't problems? Oh I know, because they want the kid to agree with THEM and that's the problem.

Is there the same kind of debate about what the music is in the world? If your wife likes country western and you like hip hop do you try to get your kid to only like what you like? People need to grow up and get over trying to be so controlling about what other people believe. This is both believers and atheists.

Yes, I would want my kid to agree with me - fire and stoves are dangerous, you should not get into strangers' cars, drugs are bad , vegetables are good, and there is no god.

what exactly is wrong about teaching a child the truth?

[Minoosh]

... You need first of all to bash this out with your wife (gently) ...

I'm assuming this is a typo.

[Mister Agenda]

To the OP, you've let your child know you don't believe in God and that's why you don't pray. That should be plenty for now, he'll have to process that mommy and daddy don't believe the same things. When he's older, maybe in his teens, if he's still a believer, encourage him to read the Bible on his own. If he thinks it makes sense, he probably never would have made a skeptic anyway, and it's not like he'll go to hell if he believes in God.

[BenBurch]

My opinion is that it is wrong to NOT tell a child that god does not exist.

[slingblade]

To the OP, you've let your child know you don't believe in God and that's why you don't pray. That should be plenty for now, he'll have to process that mommy and daddy don't believe the same things. When he's older, maybe in his teens, if he's still a believer, encourage him to read the Bible on his own. If he thinks it makes sense, he probably never would have made a skeptic anyway, and it's not like he'll go to hell if he believes in God.

Nope, he'll just end up screwing his life because he's a magical, wishful thinker.

Ask me how I know this.

[marplots]

Nope, he'll just end up screwing his life because he's a magical, wishful thinker.

Ask me how I know this.

How do you know this?

[truethat]

Yes, I would want my kid to agree with me - fire and stoves are dangerous, you should not get into strangers' cars, drugs are bad , vegetables are good, and there is no god.

what exactly is wrong about teaching a child the truth?

Nothing, you are the one making it a problem by not doing it. Just do it. If I'm not mistaken you've posted before about your wife not agreeing with you and it seems like you are very hostile towards her beliefs. If you want to tell your kid there's no god that's up to you to do. But you can't force your kid not to believe in God. That's just as wrong as trying to force him to believe in God.

We live in a world where spirituality matters to a lot of people and is demonstrated in many different ways. So suck it up buttercup, do your job as a dad and inform your child of the truth as he grows up. What the heck is the big deal?

[Nay_Sayer]

In yellow: Try to keep this in mind about those who have taught you the opposite. In the eyes of a child you will see, do you know why?

See what? What they have been brainwashed to see?

[Halfcentaur]

Luckily while I grew up with a religious mother who was raised by devout fundamentalists, my father from the beginning did not come to church with us and we all knew he was not a Christian. My mother was honest and logical enough not to freak out over the possibility that I knew some people and my father did not believe in god. Your wife seems incredibly threatened, probably because she is not as convinced as she would like to be.

But your wife is wrong to hide simple conflicting views from your son. You however are married to this person and you cannot simply rely on what is right or wrong to not cause problems with your relationship.

[angrysoba]

nm

[Rasmus]

Nothing, you are the one making it a problem by not doing it. Just do it. If I'm not mistaken you've posted before about your wife not agreeing with you and it seems like you are very hostile towards her beliefs. If you want to tell your kid there's no god that's up to you to do. But you can't force your kid not to believe in God. That's just as wrong as trying to force him to believe in God.

No wife, no kids - just opnions. So that certainly wasn't me.

We live in a world where spirituality matters to a lot of people and is demonstrated in many different ways. So suck it up buttercup, do your job as a dad and inform your child of the truth as he grows up. What the heck is the big deal?

Beats me - I am not the one making a big deal out of things, nor would I if i was in a posaition to do so.

[Dale H]

I went through a similar situation with my two sons and my ex-wife several years ago, although they were a bit older, maybe 9-10.

I stressed to them that religion was not hereditary and that there were lots of diffrent religions and opinions. I told them that they should think about what they read and are told and that they are free to make up their own minds, nobody can tell them what to believe.

Several years later my younger son remarked that he remembered me pushing hard for atheism when they were kids. This really surprised me, because I had deliberately not done that, and I said so. I said that I remembered pushing them to think, not pushing them to believe anything specific.

The older said, "Well, thinking leads to atheism".

I was so proud.

Dale H

[Eddie Dane]

I went through a similar situation with my two sons and my ex-wife several years ago, although they were a bit older, maybe 9-10.

I stressed to them that religion was not hereditary and that there were lots of diffrent religions and opinions. I told them that they should think about what they read and are told and that they are free to make up their own minds, nobody can tell them what to believe.

Several years later my younger son remarked that he remembered me pushing hard for atheism when they were kids. This really surprised me, because I had deliberately not done that, and I said so. I said that I remembered pushing them to think, not pushing them to believe anything specific.

The older said, "Well, thinking leads to atheism".

I was so proud.

Dale H

I love this.

[pakeha]

... Try to keep this in mind about those who have taught you the opposite. In the eyes of a child you will see, do you know why? ...

This brings to mind those paintings from the 60's:
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3355/sfhwc.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/sfhwc.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.keane-eyes.com/


It seems to me you have the opportunity to teach an important lesson: people have different opinions and they can be passionate about their beliefs.

This is a more useful lesson than just making a pro or anti Jesus claim.

That.

[godless dave]

If you want to tell your kid there's no god that's up to you to do. But you can't force your kid not to believe in God. That's just as wrong as trying to force him to believe in God.

You didn't even read the OP, did you?

[Quad4_72]

Luckily while I grew up with a religious mother who was raised by devout fundamentalists, my father from the beginning did not come to church with us and we all knew he was not a Christian. My mother was honest and logical enough not to freak out over the possibility that I knew some people and my father did not believe in god. Your wife seems incredibly threatened, probably because she is not as convinced as she would like to be.

But your wife is wrong to hide simple conflicting views from your son. You however are married to this person and you cannot simply rely on what is right or wrong to not cause problems with your relationship.

While yes she seems a bit threatened, it's just strange to me coming from someone who doesn't even go to church. Last night my son came up to my wife and I while we were sitting on the couch and said "Mommy is it true that angels can kiss you?" to which I responded "No it is not true." and my wife immediately put her hand towards me as if to stop what I was saying. We then clarified with him what he meant and apparently he was actually talking about some sort of Bloody Mary thing that kids at school had told him about.

We then both told him that it was not true.

[Rasmus]

While yes she seems a bit threatened, it's just strange to me coming from someone who doesn't even go to church. Last night my son came up to my wife and I while we were sitting on the couch and said "Mommy is it true that angels can kiss you?" to which I responded "No it is not true." and my wife immediately put her hand towards me as if to stop what I was saying. We then clarified with him what he meant and apparently he was actually talking about some sort of Bloody Mary thing that kids at school had told him about.

We then both told him that it was not true.

Not sure what the bloody mary thing is - but apparently it's okay fot your wife to explain that that definetly isn't true - but still not for you to say the same about god?

General question: Is it okay to say that there are no monsters under the bed, or do we have to keep an open mind here, too, and respect the opiniuons of the delusional?

[Antiquehunter]

Again, I'll go back to my comment about getting this figured out with your wife, and quick. Personally, I would get very tired, very quickly of being told to 'talk to the hand' whenever a specific topic of conversation comes up.

This isn't about how you tell your kid about whether or not 'angels can kiss you', its about how the two of you are going to come to agree on what message you will collectively pass on to your child, respectful of each other and your relationship.

[Quad4_72]

Again, I'll go back to my comment about getting this figured out with your wife, and quick. Personally, I would get very tired, very quickly of being told to 'talk to the hand' whenever a specific topic of conversation comes up.

This isn't about how you tell your kid about whether or not 'angels can kiss you', its about how the two of you are going to come to agree on what message you will collectively pass on to your child, respectful of each other and your relationship.

That was the term I was looking for "Talk to the hand". That's exactly what she did, and usually what she does whenever my son asks anything about god. Trust me, I don't just sit back and take it. I always attempt to have a rational discussion about why it's ok for her to preach her beliefs but no ok for me to preach mine. She is rational about most everything, except when it comes to her double standard of teaching beliefs.

[Antiquehunter]

I don't know what other sorts of values/beliefs you have different from your wife - presumably there are others (there are in most relationships). You probably have already figured out how you would reply to questions about sexuality, race, morality - when those sorts of questions surely arise. And even if your opinions differ on those sorts of topics, I would expect that you would find ways to address those questions without one person dismissing the other's opinions.

You need to get the topic of religion dealt with in the same manner - if she is largely logical, she must see how disrespectful and dismissive it is for her to shut you down on one specific topic. Next time your kid asks for a treat or a special privilege, and your wife starts to reply in one direction, shush her and override her and see how she likes it!

[Paul2]

I will second/third what others have said: it seems to me that the first issue is setting up some ground rules or guidelines with your wife on how the two of you want to raise your son, with each of your ideas about religion in the mix.

An agreement could be in the broadest terms, or the most specific, whatever you're comfortable with. She could say, "I want to take him to church with me when I go," and you could say, "I want to tell him the atheist viewpoint if he asks me," or, "I want to give him the atheist view even if he doesn't ask," and the two of you bash hash it out.

Forgive me if I've missed it up=thread, but have you had this type of conversation with your wife?

[Halfcentaur]

While yes she seems a bit threatened, it's just strange to me coming from someone who doesn't even go to church. Last night my son came up to my wife and I while we were sitting on the couch and said "Mommy is it true that angels can kiss you?" to which I responded "No it is not true." and my wife immediately put her hand towards me as if to stop what I was saying. We then clarified with him what he meant and apparently he was actually talking about some sort of Bloody Mary thing that kids at school had told him about.

We then both told him that it was not true.

You should tell him that some people believe that and leave it at that until he is older and better equipped to question the motives of other people. If he asks what you believe, then tell the truth. If your wife insists you not tell him what you believe, then ask her if you should tell him that she does not want you to tell him what you believe or if she intends for you to lie or distract the child from your beliefs.

It seems you need to have a long calm talk with her about this stuff presented in the context of what is fair and not fair for both of you.

[wolfgirl]

I simply cannot understand how you don't have every bit as much right to tell your child what you believe as she does.

[wolfgirl]

In regard to other people's kids, I don't think we should tell them there is no god any more than I think someone should tell them there is, but I certainly don't have a problem with telling anyone's kids that I don't believe in god. It can't hurt them to find out that there are different beliefs out there and that not everyone shares the one they're been taught.

[Autolite]

To the OP, you've let your child know you don't believe in God and that's why you don't pray. That should be plenty for now.

That's pretty much the way I see it too! Just let the child know that some grown-ups believe in god and that some don't. Explain to him/her that that is something they will be able to decide for themselves when they become grown-ups.

This approach allows you to be honest without necessarily imposing your own interpretation of reality on the kid...

[Autolite]

If your wife insists you not tell him what you believe, then ask her if you should tell him that she does not want you to tell him what you believe or if she intends for you to lie or distract the child from your beliefs.

It seems you need to have a long calm talk with her about this stuff presented in the context of what is fair and not fair for both of you.

That's some good advice there! Just don't forget to consider the "do-I-ever-want-to-get-laid-again-in-this-lifetime" factor...

[Autolite]

Nope, he'll just end up screwing his life because he's a magical, wishful thinker.

Ask me how I know this.

Maybe so, maybe not. That's just a chance he'll have to take.

My parents were both nutters. Dad was a bible thumper and Mom was into UFO's and 'pyramid-power'. As a kid myself, the only reason I accepted christianity was because I was told that I had to. The bible stories they taught in Sunday school all sounded like nonsense to me, but I bought into it because the last thing an eight-year-old wants to do is to piss off their meal ticket.

Anyhow, I grew up and grew out of it. Religious belief is just something that a parent has to let their offspring figure out for themselves...

[slingblade]

Maybe so, maybe not. That's just a chance he'll have to take.

Why should it be? Why should such things be left to chance, which is...wait for it...another type of magical, wishful thinking?

A healthy dose of learning to think critically would leave much less of it to chance.


My parents were both nutters. Dad was a bible thumper and Mom was into UFO's and 'pyramid-power'. As a kid myself, the only reason I accepted christianity was because I was told that I had to. The bible stories they taught in Sunday school all sounded like nonsense to me, but I bought into it because the last thing an eight-year-old wants to do is to piss off their meal ticket.

I seriously doubt that's how or what you actually thought at all of eight-years-old. I suspect that memory is being seen through the lens of adulthood.

Anyhow, I grew up and grew out of it. Religious belief is just something that a parent has to let their offspring figure out for themselves...

Without any tools? How cruel. At least give them tools to figure it out for themselves.

Give them swimming lessons, or toss them in the deep end, walk away, and hope they figure it out before they drown.

I'll opt for the lessons, thanks.

[Autolite]

Why should it be? Why should such things be left to chance.

Well, I am considering the potential problems that the wife could cause. If the case being that he was a single parent, then yes, the child should be told the truth and encouraged to accept the reality that there is no god.

However, this guy knowingly married a theist and should have to expect to make certain sacrifices to keep peace in the household. I don't think there is a married man alive who doesn't understand that he must forfeit certain principles, swallow his self respect and often discard rationality in order to avoid trouble with the wife...

[Autolite]

I seriously doubt that's how or what you actually thought at all of eight-years-old. I suspect that memory is being seen through the lens of adulthood.

There are two instances that I remember clearly.

I recall my Sunday school teacher telling us kids the 'Noah's Ark' story. I couldn't help but wonder how it is that an otherwise seemingly rational adult would believe such ridiculously absurd baloney let alone expecting a kid to believe it. However, I did understand that my father believed it and I knew that there would be absolutely no advantage for me to express any doubt or to question his beliefs.

Another time was during a church service when the pastor was attempting to reconcile the 'fact' that the birth of christ just happened to coincide with a pre-existing pagan celebration. Although he was adamant that confusion over the exact date of the birth of Jesus should not cause us to doubt our faith, it became clear to me that there were most certainly aspects of christianity that had no reasonable or rational explanations. And now I was listening to one of it's biggest proponents, in a round-about-way, admitting to that.

So it was when I was a kid that the Atheist seed was firmly planted and it began to germinate during adolescence. By early adulthood, it developed into apostasy and only a few years after that into full bloom Atheism...

[Autolite]

Without any tools? How cruel. At least give them tools to figure it out for themselves.

Well, as I and others have mentioned, just letting a young child know that there are grown-ups who do not believe in god is a good start. To further pro-actively encourage Atheism, when they're very young, could cause problems in the marriage making it not worth the bother.

As the child grows up and becomes older, he/she will likely start to question religious belief and that's when it might be more appropriate to subtly introduce to them reality without upsetting the wife so much.

Kids tend to be much more perceptive than most adults realize. Just give it a little time and they might very well figure it out by themselves...

[slingblade]

Well, I am considering the potential problems that the wife could cause. If the case being that he was a single parent, then yes, the child should be told the truth and encouraged to accept the reality that there is no god.

However, this guy knowingly married a theist and should have to expect to make certain sacrifices to keep peace in the household. I don't think there is a married man alive who doesn't understand that he must forfeit certain principles, swallow his self respect and often discard rationality in order to avoid trouble with the wife...

My point is being conflated.

I'm not talking about specifically teaching or not teaching god concepts.
I'm only talking about teaching critical thinking, in general.

If you could re-read my post with that in mind, perhaps that might make my post more clear.

[slingblade]

There are two instances that I remember clearly.


Memory is a funny thing. That's all I'll say about this.

[slingblade]

Well, as I and others have mentioned, just letting a young child know that there are grown-ups who do not believe in god is a good start. To further pro-actively encourage Atheism, when they're very young, could cause problems in the marriage making it not worth the bother.

As the child grows up and becomes older, he/she will likely start to question religious belief and that's when it might be more appropriate to subtly introduce to them reality without upsetting the wife so much.

Kids tend to be much more perceptive than most adults realize. Just give it a little time and they might very well figure it out by themselves...

I don't know why you had to respond to each of my paragraphs with a separate post, but since that's the chosen format, that's how I'll respond.

Again, I'm not addressing what you tell your child about religion or gods or atheism or any other specific subject.

I'm saying don't handicap your child by not teaching critical thinking. Don't just leave him to his own devices, and simply hope for a good outcome.

Critical thought applies to every single aspect of our lives. Teach it, and give your child a decided advantage in life.

If the above is still a point of contention, then I'm frankly baffled as to why it would be.

[llwyd]

I had this coming bit unexpectedly a couple of weeks ago as we haven't really talked about these issues to our 5 year old, but he came suddenly with this during our Sunday walk: "Daddy, is Grandfather in heaven with God?" (My father passed away a year before our son was born.) I answered that I hope so, and that some people believe that after you die you go to heaven, but some don't. He then asked what I believe, and I said that I don't really know (but didn't mention that I think it's highly unlikely, unfortunately). I wondered who had talked to him about God and heaven, probably his Grandmother. Children are strange people though, you never know what's going on in those little heads...

[Autolite]

Critical thought applies to every single aspect of our lives. Teach it, and give your child a decided advantage in life.

If the above is still a point of contention, then I'm frankly baffled as to why it would be.

Sure, teaching critical thinking is great.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that in this particular case, the husband must tread carefully so as to not cause trouble with the wife. He could find himself in a fix if he manages to (unintentionally) convince his young son that mommy is nutters.

Marriage is constantly having to compromise. There will be lots of time, later on as the kid gets older and is mature enough to decide things for himself, to set him straight without upsetting the wife...

[Rasmus]

Sure, teaching critical thinking is great.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that in this particular case, the husband must tread carefully so as to not cause trouble with the wife. He could find himself in a fix if he manages to (unintentionally) convince his young son that mommy is nutters.

Well, is she not, then?

And does hubby really not think that she is as well?

Marriage is constantly having to compromise. There will be lots of time, later on as the kid gets older and is mature enough to decide things for himself, to set him straight without upsetting the wife...

just once i want to see that the default position does not suggest that the religious get their way, just once.

But, no, the atheist had better shut up, hoping everything will turn out right in the end, lest the nutter refuses her christian duties of sleeping with him...

[Autolite]

Memory is a funny thing. That's all I'll say about this.

I can assure you that my memory is quite clear reference those two instances I had mentioned. I suspect the reason that they stuck in my head is because for a young child, at least for me, they were both profoundly confusing and unsettling.

I should also mention a third memory that comes to mind was the first time I heard my grandmother, or anyone, speaking in tongues. I was twelve years old at the time (shortly before my grandmother's death).

It happened during a church service I was attending with my grandparents and the spectacle was so absurd that I have never forgotten about it. I just couldn't understand how adults I was taught to respect could behave so foolishly.

There must be others here with similar experiences, feelings and memories...

[Autolite]

But, no, the atheist had better shut up, hoping everything will turn out right in the end, lest the nutter refuses her christian duties of sleeping with him...

Perhaps we could agree then that it's basically up to the individual reference what one is willing to forfeit to avoid further trouble or problems. We all determine our actions by considering what we have to lose and/or gain.

In most aspects of life (work, relationships, business) there always seems to be a necessary compromise to keep things stable.

Can anyone really claim that they've never had to give up a little bit of their personal pride, principles or self respect in order to avoid an otherwise considerably less desirable situation???

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I suppose what I am trying to say is that in this particular case, the husband must tread carefully so as to not cause trouble with the wife.

Why should the wife not also have to tread carefully in so as to not cause trouble with the husband?

Marriage is constantly having to compromise.

A compromise implies both sides meeting in the middle on a subject, not one person backing down completely and the other not at all.

[Rasmus]

Perhaps we could agree then that it's basically up to the individual reference what one is willing to forfeit to avoid further trouble or problems. We all determine our actions by considering what we have to lose and/or gain.

In most aspects of life (work, relationships, business) there always seems to be a necessary compromise to keep things stable.

Yes, but there was no suggestion of a compromise here - just advice to simply give in.

And compromise is not automaticially a good solution, either. It is possible for one side to simply be wrong.

Can anyone really claim that they've never had to give up a little bit of their personal pride, principles or self respect in order to avoid an otherwise considerably less desirable situation???

So what?

Just because such situations exist doesn't mean this is one of them, does it?

[Autolite]

Why should the wife not also have to tread carefully in so as to not cause trouble with the husband?

Sure, in an imaginary, ideal and fair world where the wife would stand to lose as much as the husband should the marriage fail. My opinions are based on the real world and my observations on how marriages actually work...

[Autolite]

Yes, but there was no suggestion of a compromise here - just advice to simply give in.

Well, telling the child that there are adults who do not believe in god and that he/she will grow up and decide for them-self seems to me to be a fair compromise. This should encourage the kid to give the issue some more though if not immediately then perhaps latter in his development.

The father is being honest with his son while at the same time not necessarily completely trashing the mother's beliefs...

[Rasmus]

Well, telling the child that there are adults who do not believe in god and that he/she will grow up and decide for them-self seems to me to be a fair compromise. This should encourage the kid to give the issue some more though if not immediately then perhaps latter in his development.

The father is being honest with his son while at the same time not necessarily completely trashing the mother's beliefs...

the father never had an intion of trashing the wife's belief - at least, I haven't seen anything that would suggest this much.

The "compromise" you suggeat is nothing but the dad doing what he meant to do all along - but it is exactly this that his wife objects to. So, reasonable as it may be, it is in no way a solution.


Again, I am just surprised that people do apparently not talk about these thngs before getting married, let alone having children.

Why do non-believers expect that their believing spouses would suddenly approach their own belief rationally?

And why do both sides apparently expect the other side to simply ignore what they believe in?

[Rasmus]

Sure, in an imaginary, ideal and fair world where the wife would stand to lose as much as the husband should the marriage fail. My opinions are based on the real world and my observations on how marriages actually work...

Funny. If I should find myself in a marriage where I was expected to give in to whatever type of dissagreement - and the idea that there would be no sex anymore if i didn't, while making things worse, wouldn't be a requirement here - I'd say the marriage had failed already.

And I would tell my spouse as much, too: the strategy of the OP's wife would indicate to me the need to find a good lawyer.

[Autolite]

he "compromise" you suggeat is nothing but the dad doing what he meant to do all along - but it is exactly this that his wife objects to. So, reasonable as it may be, it is in no way a solution.

I was suggesting the compromise of just letting the child know that there are adults who do not believe in god as opposed to telling the child outright that there isn't a god (that being the question asked in the initial post)...

[Rasmus]

I was suggesting the compromise of just letting the child know that there are adults who do not believe in god as opposed to telling the child outright that there isn't a god (that being the question asked in the initial post)...

The OP said he tried to tell his child that he didn't believe in god. It was - according to the op - the mother who said it was wrong to teach a child that there wasn't a god.

Either way - whatever the mother teaches (eithere "there is a god" or " i believee there is a god") it's just as fair to give the father the same freedom.

And to teach that "some adults" don't believe in god seems a little bit strange - the kid asked why they (i.e the father and the child) were not praying. at the very least an honest answer demands an "i do not believe there is a god".

again i think there cannot be an answer here unless we know how the spouses deal with their differences otherwise.

is he ever allowed to have any opinion all by himself? is the child ever aware of a dissagreement between the parents? can the parents ever admit to being wrong?

[Autolite]

And to teach that "some adults" don't believe in god seems a little bit strange

Why do you feel that this is strange?

I would think it would cause the the child to start looking for reasons why some adults might disbelieve (if not now then perhaps a few years down the road). It could be what 'sparks' the critical thought process.

Blatantly telling the kid that there is no god, and explaining why there is no god, may not be as effective as letting the kid think about it and sorting it out for themselves (not to mention that it also pisses off mom).

Even when discussing the issue with adults, few believers ever buy the concept of Atheism by just having it explained to them no matter how clear and evident the rationale used may be...

[tsig]

Why do you feel that this is strange?

I would think it would cause the the child to start looking for reasons why some adults might disbelieve (if not now then perhaps a few years down the road). It could be what 'sparks' the critical thought process.

Blatantly telling the kid that there is no god, and explaining why there is no god, may not be as effective as letting the kid think about it and sorting it out for themselves (not to mention that it also pisses off mom).

Even when discussing the issue with adults, few believers ever buy the concept of Atheism by just having it explained to them no matter how clear and evident the rationale used may be...

So the Christian can indoctrinate the child while the atheist stands silent?

[Morrigan]

You didn't tell him God doesn't exist. You told him you don't believe God exists. Those are two different statements.

Your wife is being ridiculous a disgusting and irrational hypocrite. You have just as much right to share your beliefs as she does to share hers.
Agreed.

Personally I can't understand why people marry and have kids with someone with not only incompatible beliefs, but don't even go over the consequences of having those incompatible beliefs when having children is concerned before having them in the first place. Didn't you think, or talk about that sort of thing before having kids? I could never, ever, ever date a religious person let alone marry one, and having kids with one is just.... gah. Total dealbreaker for me. I get that I'm probably alone in this, though.

You didn't even read the OP, did you?
Tee-hee-hee. Reading is hard, lol.

[Rasmus]

Why do you feel that this is strange?

Why would I teach about "some adults", when clearly the child asked something about "me". "some adults"! should be the extension of my explanantion - but "I" do not pray, because "I"! do not believe in god and it has nothing to do with what anyone else on the planet beliefs.

I would think it would cause the the child to start looking for reasons why some adults might disbelieve (if not now then perhaps a few years down the road). It could be what 'sparks' the critical thought process.

I am getting so tired of this wannabe-argument. What would you tell your child if it was scared of monsters under the bed? or witches?

Blatantly telling the kid that there is no god, and explaining why there is no god, may not be as effective as letting the kid think about it and sorting it out for themselves (not to mention that it also pisses off mom).

mom will have to learn how to deal with being wrong, sooner or later, one way or another. again, i fail to see why mom should not be upset under any circumstances here.

and, really, how do you propose teaching about critical thinking if you refuse to apply it to the world and show why it works?

but maybe the stove isn't hot and we should encourage the kid to burn a few fingers as well...

Even when discussing the issue with adults, few believers ever buy the concept of Atheism by just having it explained to them no matter how clear and evident the rationale used may be...

yes - because too many people look away when those adults are children and are brought up to belive in magical thinking.

Also: make up your mind:

if the child will probably figure things out eventually and by itself - then all those adults shouldn't actually be around, should they? but i have a suspicion that it doesn't work that way, and a lot of people who are introctrinated at a young age do not just figure it out one day.

And let's face it: Mommy is intoctrinating the child here! she is not teaching that some adults belief this or that, she prays with the child.

[Rasmus]

I'm probably alone in this, though.

Nope.

I'd date a beliver - but i'd consider it an issue that would have to be resolved.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Sure, in an imaginary, ideal and fair world where the wife would stand to lose as much as the husband should the marriage fail. My opinions are based on the real world and my observations on how marriages actually work...

So a husband should defer to his wife because if she divorces him he's likely to have less access to the child? That sounds like an incredibly healthy relationship...

[tsig]

So a husband should defer to his wife because if she divorces him he's likely to have less access to the child? That sounds like an incredibly healthy relationship...

There's an amazing sense of entitlement in this thread.

[Autolite]

So the Christian can indoctrinate the child while the atheist stands silent?

I personally feel that all religious indoctrination, at any age, is wrong but I'm not arguing about what is right or wrong. I am trying to be pragmatic by planting the suggestion that belief in god might not be valid rather than asserting that god isn't real and causing added stress in the marriage.

I feel that being 'right' is seldom more important than the end goal, in this case that being the kid eventually learning to acknowledge reality...

[Rasmus]

I personally feel that all religious indoctrination, at any age, is wrong but I'm not arguing about what is right or wrong. I am trying to be pragmatic by planting the suggestion that belief in god might not be valid rather than asserting that god isn't real and causing added stress in the marriage.

... but the woman here has no issues with assertaing that god is real!

Which still means the atheist has to suck it up, so that the believer doesn't get upset. The stress of the non-believer just doesn't count, does it?

[Quad4_72]

Agreed.

Personally I can't understand why people marry and have kids with someone with not only incompatible beliefs, but don't even go over the consequences of having those incompatible beliefs when having children is concerned before having them in the first place. Didn't you think, or talk about that sort of thing before having kids? I could never, ever, ever date a religious person let alone marry one, and having kids with one is just.... gah. Total dealbreaker for me. I get that I'm probably alone in this, though.


Tee-hee-hee. Reading is hard, lol.

I was not an atheist before I married her. I was a Christian.

[Autolite]

Also: make up your mind:

if the child will probably figure things out eventually and by itself - then all those adults shouldn't actually be around, should they? but i have a suspicion that it doesn't work that way, and a lot of people who are indoctrinated at a young age do not just figure it out one day.

Perhaps I can be faulted for my opinion having been based on my own experiences and observations. I was heavily indoctrinated into christianity as a young kid although I could never really swallow everything I was being told.

I just figured that I had better play along so as to not create trouble for myself between my parents and/or grandparents. (As a kid I was fascinated, as may kids are, with dinosaurs. However my grandfather explained to me that the bible said that there weren't any such things). With my grandfather being a rather strict disciplinarian, I reasoned that it was likely in my best interests not to counter his opinions on the matter.

In any case, I grew into Atheism pretty much all on my own. No-one had ever explained to me that there was even an alternative to belief. As an older kid, a young teenager, I wasn't aware that there was even such a thing as Atheism. I had always thought that there was something 'different' about me for having serious doubts about what my grandparents and father believed.

In the end I came around to reality as I matured, read and just observed the behaviors of other believers. My father has been several years dead and I don't even think that he was even ever aware of my true feelings on the issue of religion...

[Autolite]

... but the woman here has no issues with assertaing that god is real!

Which still means the atheist has to suck it up, so that the believer doesn't get upset. The stress of the non-believer just doesn't count, does it?

Again, it's up to the individual to decide which is preferable. In this case, the choice seems to be between being right or being able to amicably live with the one individual who has the ability to render your entire existence a living Hell...

[atavisms]

When your son is older explain that life is a mystery and real spirituality is about exploring the inner spaces of a quieted mind. Of asking who or what am I , really. And going deep into that, in silence to see what you find. If he cares about such things.

That is what holy books ultimately sought to address (that and a bunch of political and social narrative and aspiration,, naturally, having been written by men. They were written in a way that the ignorant would interpret them literally and the those in the know would distill the actual teaching. (like that of B'reshit, the first word in genesis.. which literally can be taken to mean, 'The house of continual beginning' (the state in which consciousness finds itself) Literally, Bet (house) means 'with' or 'in and 'reshit'
meaning 'beginning' -so the original Jewish text teaches that creation is continual process and yet is has been mistranslated and misinterpreted with this idea of a literal six day creation at some point in recent history, as a matter of course.

True spirituality and has nothing to do with religion really. It is a cognitive approach to any such material and results are measured in terms ogf one's own experience of what the mind is capable of/. You are always your own best teacher. One of the interesting things about mysticism is that no matter what tradition or lineage one explores there is a general consensus about the ultimately transitory, fluid, and illusory nature of mind-ego constructs or perceptions. The buddha [supposedly] said
'This world is not as it appears; but neither is it otherwise.'

[Rasmus]

Again, it's up to the individual to decide which is preferable. In this case, the choice seems to be between being right or being able to amicably live with the one individual who has the ability to render your entire existence a living Hell...

If those were really the only two options: Get a divorce, and do it now.

I have no idea where you get the idea that his wife would "render his life a living hell" - I see her being unreasonable, but I must have missed the parts where she threatened to cut off his privates, really.

Be that as it may, why on earth would you recommend that he should give in to an argument that takes the form "agree with me, or else...!" And how would agreeing then not render your life a living hell? Is that what you think of a worthwhile existance? I don't even see where you get "amicably" from - he would be living under constant threat and opression.

[Rasmus]

Perhaps I can be faulted for my opinion having been based on my own experiences and observations. I was heavily indoctrinated into christianity as a young kid although I could never really swallow everything I was being told.

I just figured that I had better play along so as to not create trouble for myself between my parents and/or grandparents. (As a kid I was fascinated, as may kids are, with dinosaurs. However my grandfather explained to me that the bible said that there weren't any such things). With my grandfather being a rather strict disciplinarian, I reasoned that it was likely in my best interests not to counter his opinions on the matter.

In any case, I grew into Atheism pretty much all on my own. No-one had ever explained to me that there was even an alternative to belief. As an older kid, a young teenager, I wasn't aware that there was even such a thing as Atheism. I had always thought that there was something 'different' about me for having serious doubts about what my grandparents and father believed.

In the end I came around to reality as I matured, read and just observed the behaviors of other believers. My father has been several years dead and I don't even think that he was even ever aware of my true feelings on the issue of religion...

... that hardly seems like a situation that a parent should want for his children - yet more reason to leth the kid know that it is okay to not belive and that there is at least someone close to him that will still understand him.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

(like that of B'reshit, the first word in genesis.. which literally can be taken to mean, 'The house of continual beginning' (the state in which consciousness finds itself) Literally, Bet (house) means 'with' or 'in and 'reshit'

I'm not quite sure how far the board's policy on stuff which is NSFW will let me go in expressing my surprise, but let's just say that I had no idea that the Bible had any references to that last word I quoted. The Bible is, evidently, far kinkier than I'd been led to believe.

[c4llum]

it strikes me the opposite hypothesis is of equal importance here. - Is it wrong to tell a child that god exists? or to put it correctly (in the positive): - Is it right to tell a child that exists? I suggest reading the chapter on child abuse in Hitchen's God is not great.

Surely it's wrong to tell a child there's a omniscient, omnipotent dictator, who does not only know what you think, but cares what you eat, with whom and in what position you have sex and then judges you and decides your fate.

[Rasmus]

it strikes me the opposite hypothesis is of equal importance here. - Is it wrong to tell a child that god exists? or to put it correctly (in the positive): - Is it right to tell a child that exists? I suggest reading the chapter on child abuse in Hitchen's God is not great.

No, I tihnk it is outright evil. But that would hardly convince a beliver, now, would it?

Surely it's wrong to tell a child there's a omniscient, omnipotent dictator, who does not only know what you think, but cares what you eat, with whom and in what position you have sex and then judges you and decides your fate.

No, it is only wrong if we assume that that dictator does not exist. We should warn our children to be careful if there was a real dictator.

[Tatyana]

I would throw myself whole heartily into educating my progeny about religion and all the gods.

It is religious education.

I think I would start with the Romans as they are typically really fascinating to children.

From the Romans, you could use this clip from this wonderful children's TV program and book, 'Horrible Histories'.

It is quite funny as it is based on this long running commercial for automobile insurance website called 'go compare'.

You can youtube the original ads, however, I seem to be useless at embedding youtubes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIAc6BiD3y0

[Lamuella]

It's never wrong for you to tell your child what you believe, as long as in the process you aren't denigrating the beliefs of others.

Whilst of course you should respect the views of your partner, your views are not less important. What you should push for is a united front of "mommy and daddy think different things about this, but we love each other and we love you, and that's what's important."

[Rasmus]

I would throw myself whole heartily into educating my progeny about religion and all the gods.

It is religious education.

That's not the issue here, though - or which of these gods would you tell your child were real? Which ones would you pray to with your child?

[c4llum]

That's not the issue here, though - or which of these gods would you tell your child were real? Which ones would you pray to with your child?
isn't this the whole point about atheism? atheists just go one god further..

[Rasmus]

isn't this the whole point about atheism? atheists just go one god further..

:D

Well, arguably, a deist might reject some but not all the gods of the world's religions...

anyway, though, the question whether to teach a child about religion, and if so, what to teach, exactly, is a different question than whether it is correct to either teach that there is a god, or that there isn't a god.

you could raise a child as a devout Christian of whatever particular flavour and still teach the child a lot about all those devilish, misguided, filthy pagan religions.

[IDB87]

>Not marrying a master-race Atheist babe.

Well there's your first problem.

But more seriously, the conflict is between you and your wife setting boundaries but not informing the other of these limits, or at least not respecting these set limits. A sit down is definitely required, but only if you're both mature enough to realize that compromises are a very good thing.

But, as to your OP,

So, what are your thoughts on telling children that god doesn't exist? Either with regards to my situation or a situation of your own.

Well, I don't know whether or not God exists so why would I lock my child into such a permanent mentality without knowing for certain that what I tell them is actually true? That seems like the exact same thing your wife is doing.

When I have my own kids, I don't plan on discussing the existence of God unless they bring it up. If it's brought up, I'd ask what they knew about it and what they think about it - you know, get them thinking, get them talking. I think that's the best way to foster an open, yet skeptical, mind.

As for you, OP, I'd say you're boned. You can't tell the child there is no God without creating a schism in your house, or without giving them philosophical whiplash. The best thing you can do is answer your child's questions honestly and openly, and to encourage them to think critically.

Best of luck.

[tsig]

Again, it's up to the individual to decide which is preferable. In this case, the choice seems to be between being right or being able to amicably live with the one individual who has the ability to render your entire existence a living Hell...

How very Christian, my way or the hellway.

[xjx388]

I fall on the side of this being a decision that should be made mutually. I think it was wrong for you to make such a provocative statement without first consulting your wife. You are raising this kid together so each side should get a say in what the kid learns.

Doing whatever you want (especially in regards to your children) against the wishes of your spouse is not conducive to long relationships. Besides that, it's disrespectful to the woman you (presumably) still love despite the difference in belief.

You guys should have a long conversation about what's important to you and your family. Come to a decision based on what's best for making your family stronger -not what a bunch of skeptics think should be best.

[Rasmus]

I fall on the side of this being a decision that should be made mutually. I think it was wrong for you to make such a provocative statement without first consulting your wife.

Pardon?

He only said, essentially "well, I do not belive in God". How is that a provocative statement?

And how do you put that together with the fact that mommy is praying with the child - how is that not at least as provocative?

You are raising this kid together so each side should get a say in what the kid learns.

Yes. How does that work, though, if openly stating one's own beliefs is considered "provocative"?

Doing whatever you want (especially in regards to your children) against the wishes of your spouse is not conducive to long relationships. Besides that, it's disrespectful to the woman you (presumably) still love despite the difference in belief.

Which thread have you been reading? It certainly wasn't this one!

You guys should have a long conversation about what's important to you and your family. Come to a decision based on what's best for making your family stronger -not what a bunch of skeptics think should be best.

Oh yes, don't go ask the rational people for advise ...:rolleyes:

[Quad4_72]

I fall on the side of this being a decision that should be made mutually. I think it was wrong for you to make such a provocative statement without first consulting your wife. You are raising this kid together so each side should get a say in what the kid learns.

Doing whatever you want (especially in regards to your children) against the wishes of your spouse is not conducive to long relationships. Besides that, it's disrespectful to the woman you (presumably) still love despite the difference in belief.

You guys should have a long conversation about what's important to you and your family. Come to a decision based on what's best for making your family stronger -not what a bunch of skeptics think should be best.

I think you may have read the OP too quickly. I never said that my wife should not teach my son religion. I have never protested when she took him to Sunday school while I was deployed, or that she prays with him at night. I merely stated that "Daddy does not believe in god." She was actually the one who was incredibly intolerant of my beliefs. Just re-read the OP and it will make more sense.

[Baloney]

I could never, ever, ever date a religious person let alone marry one, and having kids with one is just.... gah. Total dealbreaker for me. I get that I'm probably alone in this, though.

You are not alone. :)

[xjx388]

Pardon?

He only said, essentially "well, I do not belive in God". How is that a provocative statement?

And how do you put that together with the fact that mommy is praying with the child - how is that not at least as provocative?It's all about the context. As the OP has stated, he was Christian when he got married but changed his mind at some point. His wife is still Christian. To tell their child that he doesn't believe in God is the very definition of provocative in this context. To wit: his wife's reaction.

You are looking at it as an outsider to the family. In that case the statement is not provocative at all. But context is everything.

Yes. How does that work, though, if openly stating one's own beliefs is considered "provocative"?It works by talking about how they will approach the subject before they actually do approach the subject. They can come to an agreement and proceed accordingly. They might decide that it's best for Daddy to talk about his beliefs and Mommy to talk about hers. Or they might decide that Daddy should just keep quiet until the kid is older. Or they might decide something else entirely. Whatever they decide, it should be decided together and implemented together.

Which thread have you been reading? It certainly wasn't this one!:confused: Not sure what I said that provoked this response. . .

Oh yes, don't go ask the rational people for advise ...:rolleyes:
He's married to a Christian. What skeptics think about religion is irrelevant.

[Tatyana]

That's not the issue here, though - or which of these gods would you tell your child were real? Which ones would you pray to with your child?

You don't tell them anything, you let them make up their own mind.

[xjx388]

I think you may have read the OP too quickly. I never said that my wife should not teach my son religion. I have never protested when she took him to Sunday school while I was deployed, or that she prays with him at night. I merely stated that "Daddy does not believe in god." She was actually the one who was incredibly intolerant of my beliefs. Just re-read the OP and it will make more sense.

I get that. My only point is that before you stated your beliefs to your kid, you should have consulted with your wife as to how you both decide would be the best way to proceed. The default in your marriage was Christianity; you were Christian when you married. I just think it's a little unfair to change the game on your wife mid-stream.

Just my opinion though, based on my own "mistake" in my marriage. My wife and I divorced briefly because of a very similar circumstance. As it turned out, we reunited a year and a half later with the understanding that the kids would go to Church until they decided not to and that, while I wasn't going to be antagonistic about it, I would be open and honest if the kids asked what my beliefs were and why I didn't go to church. They are 23 and 18 now and neither one of them has been to church in a few years. My wife persists in her belief but has since lapsed in her practice.

That's what worked for us, but I would never presume that it would work for you. That's why I encouraged a good long conversation about the subject.

[Jon.]

I was not an atheist before I married her. I was a Christian.

This does make a difference, in my opinion. You have changed and are not (sorry to trot out an old cliche) the man she married. You need to sit down with her ASAP and work out how you can parent the child with respect to religious matters without disrespecting the beliefs of either parent. As I said in my earlier post, I believe it can be done, if both parties truly respect each other and want to make it work. If, on the other hand, she resents the fact that you became an atheist (I'm not saying that she does, but I don't know), it might be harder to find a mutually respectful and acceptable solution.

[Quad4_72]

I get that. My only point is that before you stated your beliefs to your kid, you should have consulted with your wife as to how you both decide would be the best way to proceed. The default in your marriage was Christianity; you were Christian when you married. I just think it's a little unfair to change the game on your wife mid-stream.

Just my opinion though, based on my own "mistake" in my marriage. My wife and I divorced briefly because of a very similar circumstance. As it turned out, we reunited a year and a half later with the understanding that the kids would go to Church until they decided not to and that, while I wasn't going to be antagonistic about it, I would be open and honest if the kids asked what my beliefs were and why I didn't go to church. They are 23 and 18 now and neither one of them has been to church in a few years. My wife persists in her belief but has since lapsed in her practice.

That's what worked for us, but I would never presume that it would work for you. That's why I encouraged a good long conversation about the subject.

She has known that I have not been christian for a long time. There is no default, and she knows my beliefs. I do not need permission from any individual on this planet to state my beliefs to anyone. While yes, we need to sit down and have a conversation, the topic of the conversation will never be whether or not I can voice my "lack" of beliefs.

[Quad4_72]

This does make a difference, in my opinion. You have changed and are not (sorry to trot out an old cliche) the man she married. You need to sit down with her ASAP and work out how you can parent the child with respect to religious matters without disrespecting the beliefs of either parent. As I said in my earlier post, I believe it can be done, if both parties truly respect each other and want to make it work. If, on the other hand, she resents the fact that you became an atheist (I'm not saying that she does, but I don't know), it might be harder to find a mutually respectful and acceptable solution.

If there are issues, they are all on her end. I do not prohibit my son from believing in any religions. I simply tell him MY beliefs. He can go to church all he wants.

[xjx388]

She has known that I have not been christian for a long time. There is no default, and she knows my beliefs. I do not need permission from any individual on this planet to state my beliefs to anyone. While yes, we need to sit down and have a conversation, the topic of the conversation will never be whether or not I can voice my "lack" of beliefs.

Understood. You are, of course, correct. But sometimes there are more important considerations than being correct. It is admittedly a delicate situation which took a pretty radical solution in my case. Hopefully, yours won't come to that.

Good luck!

[Dunstan]

Understood. You are, of course, correct. But sometimes there are more important considerations than being correct. It is admittedly a delicate situation which took a pretty radical solution in my case. Hopefully, yours won't come to that.

Good luck!

I think it's very dismissive to bring this down to the OP's supposed desire to be "correct," as if he was arguing over the right way the toilet paper should hang from the holder, or proposing to tell his wife that she really does look fat in that dress.

Being told that you should act like your personal beliefs, on an important subject that your child asked you about, are some filthy little secret that Shall Not Be Mentioned In Front of the Children is a quite different matter altogether.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

But sometimes there are more important considerations than being correct.

Like, for example, having a say in how your child is raised, whether you are obliged to lie to your child, and whether you have a right to voice your opinion. Those kinds of things are more important considerations than being correct.

[sgtbaker]

Understood. You are, of course, correct. But sometimes there are more important considerations than being correct. It is admittedly a delicate situation which took a pretty radical solution in my case. Hopefully, yours won't come to that.

Good luck!

This very much sounds like the undue politeness that people of the Christian faith tend to expect. There are two parents in that relationship. Is there any reason why one should hide his/her beliefs, over another?

[Minoosh]

Others have pointed out the difference between telling the kid "I don't belief in God" and "there is no God." The thread title says one thing and the actual post another. I don't see any problem telling the kid you don't believe in God.

I haven't seen anyone point out that being away from the family for a year is bound to skew the kid toward the view of his caretakers. But not inevitably, and not forever, for reasons touched on: I think the tendency toward belief, and a particular style of belief, is at least partly genetic. I got behavioral cues as a kid - Mom went to church, Dad didn't but she didn't seem worried about him going to hell. (The Church of Christ thought just about everyone was going to hell). It didn't compute for me, ever. It just seemed self-evident that God wouldn't go to all this trouble to create us just to toss us in the flames. I didn't reason myself into this position, not consciously, but I probably held it before I was 5. I can remember pretty far back and I don't remember believing in anything.

If I'd been exposed to a more liberal Christian tradition maybe I would have found it more compelling.

[Quad4_72]

Understood. You are, of course, correct. But sometimes there are more important considerations than being correct. It is admittedly a delicate situation which took a pretty radical solution in my case. Hopefully, yours won't come to that.

Good luck!

Like others have said, it's not about being right, it's about respect. I have respect for her beliefs, she needs to have the same respect for mine.

[Quad4_72]

Others have pointed out the difference between telling the kid "I don't belief in God" and "there is no God." The thread title says one thing and the actual post another. I don't see any problem telling the kid you don't believe in God.

I haven't seen anyone point out that being away from the family for a year is bound to skew the kid toward the view of his caretakers. But not inevitably, and not forever, for reasons touched on: I think the tendency toward belief, and a particular style of belief, is at least partly genetic. I got behavioral cues as a kid - Mom went to church, Dad didn't but she didn't seem worried about him going to hell. (The Church of Christ thought just about everyone was going to hell). It didn't compute for me, ever. It just seemed self-evident that God wouldn't go to all this trouble to create us just to toss us in the flames. I didn't reason myself into this position, not consciously, but I probably held it before I was 5. I can remember pretty far back and I don't remember believing in anything.

If I'd been exposed to a more liberal Christian tradition maybe I would have found it more compelling.

The year my son spent with my parents while I was deployed is what has him completely brainwashed. Even when I try and break the world down in the simplest form, telling him how not everything teachers tell him are correct, he won't have any of it. He likes to say "Well god is invisible which is why no one can see him". I mean how do you get in a rational discussion with a five year old?

[Paulhoff]

In yellow: Try to keep this in mind about those who have taught you the opposite. In the eyes of a child you will see, do you know why?

The eyes of a child are given way to much credit by some. :rolleyes:

Paul

:) :) :)

[Paulhoff]

One should show a child how to ask the right questions, this isn't easy, but telling a child to question EVERYTHING and not to except Answers that are not to be Questioned is good start.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Baloney]

He likes to say "Well god is invisible which is why no one can see him". I mean how do you get in a rational discussion with a five year old?

Easy! Are fairies real? Are pink invisible unicorns real? They're there, you just can't see them. Just like Thor.

[truethat]

The year my son spent with my parents while I was deployed is what has him completely brainwashed. Even when I try and break the world down in the simplest form, telling him how not everything teachers tell him are correct, he won't have any of it. He likes to say "Well god is invisible which is why no one can see him". I mean how do you get in a rational discussion with a five year old?



You need to brush up on the cognitive abilities of a five year old. They are inclined towards believing in imaginary things at this age. And he will grow out of it.

Still don't get what the big deal is except the fact that nearly every time you post about your wife the level of disrespect dripping in the posts is potent.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050308101309.htm


It's actually beneficial in other ways for small children to "Believe in God" so if you could just put aside the "beliefs" cock block mentality you might actually get over all the angst.

Many atheists were raised as believers, if we had had a parent calmly telling us along the way that it wasn't true it would have been better. But I can't at all see how a father of a child denigrating the mother for her beliefs constantly will do anything but cause harm in the future of the child.

As a the mother of two sons from a previous marriage, my kids respect a diversity of beliefs and I have never treated their father and his beliefs with anything but respect while at the same time expressing my own beliefs and giving my kids exposure to facts. My kids are 18 and 16 now and are decent human beings in this regard. I have watched over the years many selfish parents treat their child's other parent with disrespect and it has always created young adults who are disrespectful of beliefs that are different than their own. All of this is always based on the parents EGO in wanting to put down the other parent. It's pure selfishness and has nothing to do with ethics or morals or teaching their kid the right thing no matter how much said parent tries to cloak it as such.

[Baloney]

You need to brush up on the cognitive abilities of a five year old. They are inclined towards believing in imaginary things at this age. And he will grow out of it.

Personal experience has shown me that engendering critical thinking in children at a very early age inclines them towards a DISbelief in imaginary things. Five year olds are also inclined towards starving to death if you don't provide them with food -- the same reason applies towards imaginary beliefs, it seems. In other words, why force them to "grow out of it" when you can correct their inclinations with education? Young kids (i.e., under six) are much more cognitively capable than that, and relying on their inclinations is a cop-out, I think.

[truethat]

Personal experience has shown me that engendering critical thinking in children at a very early age inclines them towards a DISbelief in imaginary things. Five year olds are also inclined towards starving to death if you don't provide them with food -- the same reason applies towards imaginary beliefs, it seems. In other words, why force them to "grow out of it" when you can correct their inclinations with education? Young kids (i.e., under six) are much more cognitively capable than that, and relying on their inclinations is a cop-out, I think.


One of my kids is atheist though being raised as a Muslim, the other one is culturally into Islam more than spiritually. I've always told them the reality that there is no God and showed them the different religious beliefs of people around the world including those that don't believe in gods and even Scientology. Educating your child about religion is just part of showing them the reality of the way people believe in the world.

When someone is a new atheist they tend to lash out at the people that brainwashed them which is understandable, but also lash out at others who are still brainwashed. It's an unfair position in my mind. If you are an atheist you are ahead of the game in educating your child. It's one thing to teach kids the truth and quite another to teach kids that believers are deserving of disrespect.

I consider how I felt when I believed. I sometimes have to use that to remind myself because the longer I've been an atheist the more shocked I am that people actually truly do believe in total BS.


As to the cognitive abilities of a five year old, I tend to go along with Piaget. It doesn't mean you don't expose them to more sophisticated ideas, but most young children are not precocious and all they will learn from sneering at someone's beliefs is that this is acceptable behavior.

In fact I find it no accident that newly aware atheists that come from Fundy families tend to treat others with such disrespect for having "different beliefs" because that is exactly what they were taught as children. Only then it was sneering at non Christians. All they've done is take that ugliness and turn it back around at believers.

[slingblade]

One of my kids is atheist though being raised as a Muslim, the other one is culturally into Islam more than spiritually. I've always told them the reality that there is no God and showed them the different religious beliefs of people around the world including those that don't believe in gods and even Scientology. Educating your child about religion is just part of showing them the reality of the way people believe in the world.

When someone is a new atheist they tend to lash out at the people that brainwashed them which is understandable, but also lash out at others who are still brainwashed. It's an unfair position in my mind. If you are an atheist you are ahead of the game in educating your child. It's one thing to teach kids the truth and quite another to teach kids that believers are deserving of disrespect.

I consider how I felt when I believed. I sometimes have to use that to remind myself because the longer I've been an atheist the more shocked I am that people actually truly do believe in total BS.


As to the cognitive abilities of a five year old, I tend to go along with Piaget. It doesn't mean you don't expose them to more sophisticated ideas, but most young children are not precocious and all they will learn from sneering at someone's beliefs is that this is acceptable behavior.

In fact I find it no accident that newly aware atheists that come from Fundy families tend to treat others with such disrespect for having "different beliefs" because that is exactly what they were taught as children. Only then it was sneering at non Christians. All they've done is take that ugliness and turn it back around at believers.

These words do not reflect Quad's point of view nor his actions.

These words are antagonistic towards Quad, disguised as "just trying to help"

These words are indicative of a deep level of misunderstanding the issue.



And all of my words above will do no good, advance no point, provide no understanding whatsoever. Previous experience bears this out. :rolleyes:

[godless dave]

Truethat, how about actually reading the OP before posting a response?

[truethat]

The first words in describe his wife as a "lazy Christian" and if I'm mistaken I apologize but I do remember another thread of his where he basically spent the entire thread trashing his wife.

[slingblade]

The first words in describe his wife as a "lazy Christian" and if I'm mistaken I apologize but I do remember another thread of his where he basically spent the entire thread trashing his wife.

So how about you stop trying to be his marriage counselor?

[truethat]

So I'm not mistaken?

[godless dave]

The first words in describe his wife as a "lazy Christian"

So what?

He means she claims to be a Christian but doesn't actually go to church or spend much time on it.

[godless dave]

So I'm not mistaken?

You seem mistaken to me. And also just making stuff up.

[slingblade]

So I'm not mistaken?

So strawman miss the point entirely unable to admit when you're wrong much?

His marriage or the state thereof is not the issue and none of your business.

[truethat]

Slingblade you know damn well when I'm wrong I admit it. And pretty quickly btw, unlike you waiting over a year to apologize to me.

He put this out there and a previous example that I spoke of and to me, my widdle opinion, he seems to speak of his wife with a lot of disrespect.

The question is how two different religious views can co parent. I have done so with my kids and it's worked out fine.

I do believe that sharing my perspective is helpful. And I do believe that the palpable disrespect with which he speaks of his wife is going to be much more damaging on his son's future that sharing two different religious views in the same house.

I know many families with differing religious views in the same house, Christian and Jewish, Catholic and Jewish, Baptist and Catholic, Atheist and Jewish, Muslim and Christian, Muslim and Atheist, Atheist and Buddhist, Buddhist and Muslim etc etc etc.

It's very rare in fact these days not to know someone with different religious views in the same house.

And that usually is not that big of a deal to children. What is a problem is when parents treat the other parent's views with derision and disrespect.

So get off my back.

[slingblade]

Done. Ignored.

[godless dave]

And that usually is not that big of a deal to children. What is a problem is when parents treat the other parent's views with derision and disrespect.

So get off my back.

Derision and disrespect is how the OP's wife treats the OP's beliefs.

How he speaks about his wife here (which isn't all that disrespectful) is not going to have any effect on his son, unless his son is reading comments on the JREF forum, which I kind of doubt.

[TheGoldcountry]

Slingblade you know damn well when I'm wrong I admit it. And pretty quickly btw, unlike you waiting over a year to apologize to me.

He put this out there and a previous example that I spoke of and to me, my widdle opinion, he seems to speak of his wife with a lot of disrespect.

The question is how two different religious views can co parent. I have done so with my kids and it's worked out fine.

I do believe that sharing my perspective is helpful. And I do believe that the palpable disrespect with which he speaks of his wife is going to be much more damaging on his son's future that sharing two different religious views in the same house.

I know many families with differing religious views in the same house, Christian and Jewish, Catholic and Jewish, Baptist and Catholic, Atheist and Jewish, Muslim and Christian, Muslim and Atheist, Atheist and Buddhist, Buddhist and Muslim etc etc etc.

It's very rare in fact these days not to know someone with different religious views in the same house.

And that usually is not that big of a deal to children. What is a problem is when parents treat the other parent's views with derision and disrespect.

So get off my back.

You seem to have read a different OP than the rest of us. I read that a father was afraid to be honest about his own thoughts and feelings with his child because of his wife's anger. You saw something different.

I agree that animosity between parents is potentially much more damaging than any squabble over religion, but I never saw the attitude you say the OP exhibits towards his wife.

[truethat]

Like I said, it's based on the other thread where he basically treated her like an idiot through the entire thread because he became atheist after they were married. IF it's the same thread I'm thinking about. Perhaps it's a bit knee jerk on my behavior, but seeing several threads about how she's a crap Christian stomping on his view, well call me a cynic but there seems to be something deeper in all of this. That is he woke up to atheism after being married and is often stationed over seas and away from his child so he's not in the same position as a typical parent and at the mercy of his family and wife honoring his views.

They don't seem to. But his hostility seems to be what's the hingepin in all this. There's another post in this thread where another poster pointed out that one of his children felt he tried to push atheism on him even though the poster didn't mean it that way.

So it's a tricky subject. Bottom line is that both sides have to respect each other.

Perhaps I took "lazy Christian" as more disrespectful than he intended it but it was a red flag to me.


and godless dave you must not have kids if you don't think kids will pick up on this kind of thing without "reading about it on a message board."

Obviously this is going to be a sensitive issue to deal with. But lack of respect on her part doesn't justify lack of respect on his.

[TheGoldcountry]

I think the fact that he came here asking for help does him a lot of credit. Obviously he is seeking the best solution, I don't think attacking him is helping anyone.

(and I think "lazy Christian" is a common term that we all understand, I don't consider that an attack on his spouse.)

[TheGoldcountry]

The question is how two different religious views can co parent. I have done so with my kids and it's worked out fine.

If and when one of your children asked you about your personal views on God and religion, did you feel coerced to respond contrary to your own beliefs because you feared the reaction of their father?

[truethat]

Ok found the thread and it's funny it's basically the exact same thread as this one with people commenting about his tone towards his wife.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=201514&highlight=Quad4_72+wife

The Goldcountry I do not treat my ex husband as if he is "brainwashed" and trying to "brainwash" my kid.

That to me is very disrespectful. I understand that Quad feels brainwashed but it's hugely disrespectful to tell a parent that they are doing this. And it's clear he feels this way. If he does she's going to pick up on it.

It's same issue that he talked about last year. So obviously it's not to do with the religious beliefs.

I told my kids about all religious beliefs etc. But actually at such a young age it's not that big of a deal. The child has plenty of time to learn. This is not about the child or the religious beliefs IMO. It's about a new atheist being disrespectful to his believer wife.

[TheGoldcountry]

Ok found the thread and it's funny it's basically the exact same thread as this one with people commenting about his tone towards his wife.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=201514&highlight=Quad4_72+wife

The Goldcountry I do not treat my ex husband as if he is "brainwashed" and trying to "brainwash" my kid.

That to me is very disrespectful. I understand that Quad feels brainwashed but it's hugely disrespectful to tell a parent that they are doing this. And it's clear he feels this way. If he does she's going to pick up on it.

It's same issue that he talked about last year. So obviously it's not to do with the religious beliefs.

I told my kids about all religious beliefs etc. But actually at such a young age it's not that big of a deal. The child has plenty of time to learn. This is not about the child or the religious beliefs IMO. It's about a new atheist being disrespectful to his believer wife.

OK, you defeated your strawman and ignored the main question I was asking. I'll just quit. Neither you nor I is contributing at this point.

ETA: Sorry, but I had to address this point. It IS a big deal. I was raised as a believer, and it took years of deprogramming myself. Why should belief be the default position?

[truethat]

Yawn with the strawman. I stated last year that the issue was respect and it's no surprise that she doesn't respect his views when he accused her of brainwashing her child.

So once again, even if you don't understand, my response to the OP is that there are bigger issues at play here. Both the husband and the wife must respect each other's views when it comes to sharing them with their child.

If he is going behind her back after she prays with the child and saying "By the way none of what mommy just told you is true, you aren't praying to anyone because God doesn't really exist!" If his child asks him to pray with him he could go get mommy and say that's something you and Mommy do. It is confusing for a child to be told one thing by one parent and another by the other parent without a frame of reference. Because he feels he is correct he feels valid.

That is very disrespectful to his wife's views and I can understand why she would get angry. There are ways to mutually share your views with your child without it turning into a pissing contest over who is really correct.

That is relative to the discussion whether you understand it or not.

[TheGoldcountry]

As far as you or I know, he didn't do a lot of the things you are suggesting. No one here is suggesting that attacking his wife directly is acceptable, yet you keep setting that up as though it was a shared conviction amongst everyone here.

I understand quite well your concerns, despite your insistence to the contrary. I just don't think that THEY EXIST.

ETA: Insisting that anyone who disagrees with you must obviously not understand your point is quite disrespectful. It's not very conducive to argument. Please don't do it to me anymore, unless your only goal in posting is to offend everyone so no one responds to your posts anymore, in which case more power to you.

[truethat]

could you stop directing your comments to me personally as you are derailing the thread. You don't believe it and that's fine. It has absolutely no bearing on my comments. We are contributing our perspectives not debating them.

[TheGoldcountry]

could you stop directing your comments to me personally as you are derailing the thread. You don't believe it and that's fine. It has absolutely no bearing on my comments. We are contributing our perspectives not debating them.

My contributions have been directly on point with the OP.

You address others directly all the time, so don't hang that albatross on my neck.

eta:let's just agree to end it now, ok? I think we're at an impasse.

[Quad4_72]

I have taken the liberty to make a compilation of your impressive misunderstanding of my family situation. Every single individual (Minus one other person I think) gets the situation except you. You have posted blatant lies about things I have said and it really is not appreciated. So let's go through them, one by one.
Still don't get what the big deal is except the fact that nearly every time you post about your wife the level of disrespect dripping in the posts is potent.
Provide evidence of a single time I have disrespected my wife. The only thing you have is a thread I made a year ago where the way I phrased my coming out as an atheist to her could of been interpreted as arrogant. Other then that, you have nothing except lies. As I said, I really, REALLY don't appreciate being accused of being disrespectful to my wife.

so if you could just put aside the "beliefs" cock block mentality you might actually get over all the angst. Provide evidence that I have a "Beliefs cock block" mentality. Just because I tell my son what I believe does not mean that I am cock blocking anything. Stop making assumptions without sufficient evidence.

But I can't at all see how a father of a child denigrating the mother for her beliefs constantly will do anything but cause harm in the future of the child.Provide evidence that I denigrate her beliefs constantly. This is another lie that is blatant degradation of my character and again it is extremely disrespectful to me and such a strawman does not belong in these forums.

The first words in describe his wife as a "lazy Christian" and if I'm mistaken I apologize but I do remember another thread of his where he basically spent the entire thread trashing his wife.Lazy Christian is not meant as degrading. It is a term to describe an individual who basically does not practice their religion but still claims Christianity. I have never called her this. This is a forum where people understand those kinds of terms, and I feel comfortable using them because for the most part, the posters know exactly what I am talking about. Also, saying that I was "trashing my wife" is the type of thing that makes people's blood boil, just so you know.

He put this out there and a previous example that I spoke of and to me, my widdle opinion, he seems to speak of his wife with a lot of disrespect.Nope, I don't. Again provide evidence.

And I do believe that the palpable disrespect with which he speaks of his wife is going to be much more damaging on his son's future that sharing two different religious views in the same house.This is going off the deep end a bit here. Again I am extremely offended that you say I am speaking of my wife with "palpable disrespect".

But his hostility seems to be what's the hingepin in all this. What hostility? Where is it at? Post evidence. More degradation of my character here.

Ok found the thread and it's funny it's basically the exact same thread as this one with people commenting about his tone towards his wife.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=201514&highlight=Quad4_72+wifeOk, what about the thread? In that very thread I even explained that the way I posted was not the way the encounter actually went down, and I even acknowledged that it sounded a little arrogant and that is not what I meant.
I know the way it sounds from a message board it probably sounded like I was being arrogant. But I promise you, I was not. I definitely do not want to be one of those arrogant jerk atheists. The way I said things was very casual and very passive.

I understand that Quad feels brainwashed but it's hugely disrespectful to tell a parent that they are doing this.Never ONCE did I tell my wife that she was brainwashing our child. This is a flat out lie. It may even be on the fringe of breaking your membership agreement as it is incredibly offensive.


Yawn with the strawman. I stated last year that the issue was respect and it's no surprise that she doesn't respect his views when he accused her of brainwashing her child. Please link me to the post where I accused my wife of brainwashing our child. You are tracking that she is not viewing these posts correct? Yes I feel that him going to church a lot when I was deployed was brainwashing, but of course I never told her this.

Basically, truehat, all of your posts in this thread have been some of the most disrespectful I have ever encountered. I have never felt offended on a forum, because it is just the internet, but you have blatantly lied about me, my wife, and my family in a public fashion, openly degrading my character. To me, your posts seem on the border of being reported as they seem to be personal attacks. I don't know where all of this hostility towards me came from, but it is unwarranted and does not belong on these forums. I have never put another poster on ignore before, even the most VILE twoofers. But none of them have ever personally attacked my family, so this may be a first.

[Quad4_72]

Thank you to all of the individuals who saw through what truehat posted as lies. Being publicly degraded with lies is definitely not what I expected from this forum, so thank you for those of you who know better.

[Minoosh]

The year my son spent with my parents while I was deployed is what has him completely brainwashed. Even when I try and break the world down in the simplest form, telling him how not everything teachers tell him are correct, he won't have any of it. He likes to say "Well god is invisible which is why no one can see him". I mean how do you get in a rational discussion with a five year old?

I kind of wince, because I imagine this kid going into cognitive overload. He may be too young to appreciate the logical fallacy of begging the question. The idea that there are different religions, though, that's not so hard.

By now I hope you've had a rational discussion with his other caregivers, and have settled on a simple, honest, loving message you can agree on. Daddy doesn't pray, Grandma and Grandpa do and you all love him. Right?

Don't most kids start to argue with their parents sooner or later?

[Minoosh]

Daddy's not going to pray, he's just going to think really hard about how much he loves you.

[Quad4_72]

I kind of wince, because I imagine this kid going into cognitive overload. He may be too young to appreciate the logical fallacy of begging the question. The idea that there are different religions, though, that's not so hard.

By now I hope you've had a rational discussion with his other caregivers, and have settled on a simple, honest, loving message you can agree on. Daddy doesn't pray, Grandma and Grandpa do and you all love him. Right?

Don't most kids start to argue with their parents sooner or later?

There will definitely not be any cognitive overload. I have only said very minimal to him on my beliefs. His caregivers are myself and my wife. He was only with my parents while I was deployed.

[truethat]

As far as raising my son, I am really not sure how to address the god issue especially if my wife insists. As other posters have said, I will definitely just have to hold off on that one until I can talk to my wife more. This was honestly the first time I had ever seen her sit down and pray with him before. Seeing him fold his hands together and repeat the prayers she said made me feel very uneasy. Kids that age are SO impressionable. Even though she doesn't know it, she is brainwashing him from a very early age. That is what leads people to later in life look at others in disgust when they find out that they don't believe in god. But like I said, I must talk to my wife first.

Even if you don't exactly say this to your wife if this is how you feel it is very likely that she knows this.

And I'm not trying to criticize you or put you down. You put this online twice about the same topic and your posts "to me" seem to have a disrespectful tone towards her beliefs. So she seems to be responding in kind.

That is probably at the heart of the matter as I've already stated.


And has been noted last year, your attitude in discussion towards her seems to have been the catalyst for her starting to pray with your son in the first place. So you might want to take a look at how you are coming across.

[Dunstan]

Perhaps I took "lazy Christian" as more disrespectful than he intended it but it was a red flag to me.

Interesting. Because in the other thread you linked to, you wrote (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6901587#post6901587) (regarding the OP's wife):

Christians like her tend to be veeeeeeeeery lazy when it comes to faith.

[truethat]

Yes, I noticed that as well when I looked it up. It was amusing to me to see that.

[Minoosh]

There will definitely not be any cognitive overload. I have only said very minimal to him on my beliefs. His caregivers are myself and my wife. He was only with my parents while I was deployed.

My grandparents actually thought Sunday school was a sin. Maybe not a burn-in-hell-proposition but definitely on the wrong track.

My second post above is a way of saying, it's a possible answer if the bedtime prayers come up again. It sounds like you and your wife have it covered.

The "if I die before I wake" line was enough to make me ditch that particular prayer as a child. Counting my blessings at the end of the day is a technique I have used as an adult.

[Quad4_72]

Even if you don't exactly say this to your wife if this is how you feel it is very likely that she knows this.

And I'm not trying to criticize you or put you down. You put this online twice about the same topic and your posts "to me" seem to have a disrespectful tone towards her beliefs. So she seems to be responding in kind.

That is probably at the heart of the matter as I've already stated.


And has been noted last year, your attitude in discussion towards her seems to have been the catalyst for her starting to pray with your son in the first place. So you might want to take a look at how you are coming across.

No, actually, I don't need to take a look at how I am coming across, as I KNOW how I am coming across (I am the one there, remember?). You are making assumptions that do not add up with what I have posted here. Everyone else in the thread gets it accept you. You have made me out to be some wife belittling monster.

ETA: These other thread is a different topic then this one, so please don't lie and say there are two threads about the same topic. You also still need to provide evidence that I am disrespectful towards my wife.

[Quad4_72]

Interesting. Because in the other thread you linked to, you wrote (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6901587#post6901587) (regarding the OP's wife):

Now that is VERY interesting right there. Lol at the hypocrisy.

[MarkCorrigan]

Oh good, TT is back to make totally invalid and nasty assumptions about someone then whine about how everyone else is misreading her and how she's clearly right.

So onto the OP: Dude, you're totally in the right here. While you do absolutely have to compromise in discussions like this, there's a big difference between "compromise" and "not actually be allowed to say anything." I can't say I'm a super marriage expert and goodness knows it might make things worse, but how about when you do have the talk with her, letting your wife see things from your point of view?

Maybe ask her how she would feel if, when your son asked the two of you a religious question, you stated your opinion and then attempted to force her to stay silent on the matter? She quite possibly doesn't even realise that's what she's doing. A lot of people can't actually see any situation from anyone else's perspective naturally.

[truethat]

You could admit that you did accuse your wife of brainwashing your child instead of dumping it on me.

Also I do agree that you know how you come across because you are there. Of course and as well it is often hard to convey how you really speak by writing online. (Believe me I'm well aware of that)

However based on the post last year you said she got upset after your conversation and it was then that she started praying with your son.

It may well be that she sees you as an incredible threat to his faith. I am assuming you are often deployed and then come back. Well imagine it from her perspective. Everything is coming along nicely then you come back for a while and try to undue everything she's done with your son, even your parents have done. Don't you think that if she feels you are a threat to her beliefs she's going to come on even stronger every time you come home?

My prediction last year seems pretty much like what happened.

[slingblade]

The inability to give up and shut up is strong in this one.

[truethat]

takes one to know one! :P

[tsig]

Slingblade you know damn well when I'm wrong I admit it. And pretty quickly btw, unlike you waiting over a year to apologize to me.

He put this out there and a previous example that I spoke of and to me, my widdle opinion, he seems to speak of his wife with a lot of disrespect.

The question is how two different religious views can co parent. I have done so with my kids and it's worked out fine.

I do believe that sharing my perspective is helpful. And I do believe that the palpable disrespect with which he speaks of his wife is going to be much more damaging on his son's future that sharing two different religious views in the same house.

I know many families with differing religious views in the same house, Christian and Jewish, Catholic and Jewish, Baptist and Catholic, Atheist and Jewish, Muslim and Christian, Muslim and Atheist, Atheist and Buddhist, Buddhist and Muslim etc etc etc.

It's very rare in fact these days not to know someone with different religious views in the same house.

And that usually is not that big of a deal to children. What is a problem is when parents treat the other parent's views with derision and disrespect.

So get off my back.

Citation?

His wife disrespects his belief and you don't seem to have a problem with that.

[truethat]

Sure I do. I've mentioned already. What part of "when PARENTS (that means more than one so in a typical case there are two parents, the mom and the dad) treat the other parent's .....etc"


http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7883083#post7883083

[Quad4_72]

You could admit that you did accuse your wife of brainwashing your child instead of dumping it on me.

Also I do agree that you know how you come across because you are there. Of course and as well it is often hard to convey how you really speak by writing online. (Believe me I'm well aware of that)

However based on the post last year you said she got upset after your conversation and it was then that she started praying with your son.

It may well be that she sees you as an incredible threat to his faith. I am assuming you are often deployed and then come back. Well imagine it from her perspective. Everything is coming along nicely then you come back for a while and try to undue everything she's done with your son, even your parents have done. Don't you think that if she feels you are a threat to her beliefs she's going to come on even stronger every time you come home?

My prediction last year seems pretty much like what happened.

This is all complete insanity. Start providing evidence for your claims or stop making them. Again, you are the ONLY one making the outlandish claims about my character.

[Quad4_72]

Oh good, TT is back to make totally invalid and nasty assumptions about someone then whine about how everyone else is misreading her and how she's clearly right.

So onto the OP: Dude, you're totally in the right here. While you do absolutely have to compromise in discussions like this, there's a big difference between "compromise" and "not actually be allowed to say anything." I can't say I'm a super marriage expert and goodness knows it might make things worse, but how about when you do have the talk with her, letting your wife see things from your point of view?

Maybe ask her how she would feel if, when your son asked the two of you a religious question, you stated your opinion and then attempted to force her to stay silent on the matter? She quite possibly doesn't even realise that's what she's doing. A lot of people can't actually see any situation from anyone else's perspective naturally.

Thank you for the useful advice. Nice change of pace from the many derogatory posts TT has made about myself.

[tsig]

Ok found the thread and it's funny it's basically the exact same thread as this one with people commenting about his tone towards his wife.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=201514&highlight=Quad4_72+wife

The Goldcountry I do not treat my ex husband as if he is "brainwashed" and trying to "brainwash" my kid.

That to me is very disrespectful. I understand that Quad feels brainwashed but it's hugely disrespectful to tell a parent that they are doing this. And it's clear he feels this way. If he does she's going to pick up on it.

It's same issue that he talked about last year. So obviously it's not to do with the religious beliefs.

I told my kids about all religious beliefs etc. But actually at such a young age it's not that big of a deal. The child has plenty of time to learn. This is not about the child or the religious beliefs IMO. It's about a new atheist being disrespectful to his believer wife.

Right that's why churches don't have youth studies.

[truethat]

This is all complete insanity. Start providing evidence for your claims or stop making them. Again, you are the ONLY one making the outlandish claims about my character.


I am not making outlandish claims about your character. I'm pointing out how you might be coming across.

Earlier you stated that you never said that your wife was brainwashing your child. Then I quoted you and you totally ignored it. Well I won't comment again because I see that you just want support.

However my comments were posted with the intention of giving advice.

Good luck to you.

[tsig]

Thank you to all of the individuals who saw through what truehat posted as lies. Being publicly degraded with lies is definitely not what I expected from this forum, so thank you for those of you who know better.

Truethat is an "atheist" who never sees anything wrong with Christians but thinks that expressing disbelief is religious bashing so it probably wasn't anything personal.

[truethat]

That's not true. It's utterly ridiculous. LOL But it truly wasn't anything personal. I just don't get why people are so emotional about what they and other people believe. It's not that hard to understand that most people believe in God. They aren't crazy brainwashed evil people. They are just people. I'd rather focus my energies on people who corrupt or use this belief system to do harm.

[Quad4_72]

I am not making outlandish claims about your character. I'm pointing out how you might be coming across.

Earlier you stated that you never said that your wife was brainwashing your child. Then I quoted you and you totally ignored it. Well I won't comment again because I see that you just want support.

However my comments were posted with the intention of giving advice.

Good luck to you.

What you have posted about me in this thread warrants an apology. If said apology is not given, that's fine. You will just be the first poster to have ever gone on my ignore list, on any forum I have ever been a part of.

[MarkCorrigan]

However my comments were posted with the intention of giving advice.

Good luck to you.
Like when you told me I deserved to be bullied?


No worries about the advice Quad, but I bear no liability if it ends up going horribly wrong. I bear all credit if it goes well. :D

[tsig]

Yes, I noticed that as well when I looked it up. It was amusing to me to see that.

Now that is VERY interesting right there. Lol at the hypocrisy.

Just amusing.:boggled:

[truethat]

I apologize for how you have interpreted my statements as I did not mean them that way.

To be clear I meant "It is obvious to me on here from things you posted that you do not respect your wife's beliefs at all. You are the one asking for advice so I can only address you. If she was posting I'd be telling her the same thing. It is very important to treat your spouse with respect even if you don't agree with his views. Not just religious but political and whatnot. When you don't respect the views it comes across very clearly to the spouse and also to the child. Down the line this will have far more of a negative impact than the issues at hand now."

So that is what I meant to say. If my way of saying this didn't come across (and I can concede that it may not as it's not the first time I've had this problem) I apologize very sincerely.

But that is really what I meant to say.


Also to MCorrigan I didn't say that but you took it that way. That's OT so revive the thread if you wish to continue your whining there. ;)

[tsig]

That's not true. It's utterly ridiculous. LOL But it truly wasn't anything personal. I just don't get why people are so emotional about what they and other people believe. It's not that hard to understand that most people believe in God. They aren't crazy brainwashed evil people. They are just people. I'd rather focus my energies on people who corrupt or use this belief system to do harm.

Like turning a son against his father?

[truethat]

really. LMAO ok let me let you atheist task force workers get down to solving that drama. Because I didn't get that at all from anything he posted.

[Paul2]

Time for a new thread on religious brainwashing!

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=8248759#post8248759

[MarkCorrigan]

really. LMAO ok let me let you atheist task force workers get down to solving that drama. Because I didn't get that at all from anything he posted.

Yet you seem to be the only one.

Odd that isn't it?

[tsig]

I apologize for how you have interpreted my statements as I did not mean them that way.

To be clear I meant "It is obvious to me on here from things you posted that you do not respect your wife's beliefs at all. You are the one asking for advice so I can only address you. If she was posting I'd be telling her the same thing. It is very important to treat your spouse with respect even if you don't agree with his views. Not just religious but political and whatnot. When you don't respect the views it comes across very clearly to the spouse and also to the child. Down the line this will have far more of a negative impact than the issues at hand now."

So that is what I meant to say. If my way of saying this didn't come across (and I can concede that it may not as it's not the first time I've had this problem) I apologize very sincerely.

But that is really what I meant to say.


Also to MCorrigan I didn't say that but you took it that way. That's OT so revive the thread if you wish to continue your whining there. ;)

It wasn't obvious to the rest of us. You still are saying that religious belief automatically gets respect but the other view doesn't.

[truethat]

tsig I'm only going to try one more time.

When he stated that he believed that his wife was brainwashing his child I am not the only one that took it as disrespect.

In addition when she became outraged that he told his son his beliefs, I am not the only one that took it as disrespect.

In a marriage it is important for parents to respect the other parent's point of view. Not doing so will have a long term effect on the child. There are many parents that have more than one religion in the home, respecting the other's view is key.

If this still doesn't make sense to you then I give up.


Note, if she was here asking for advice I'd be giving her the exact same advice. The comments were directed towards him since he is the one who is here.

[Quad4_72]

I apologize for how you have interpreted my statements as I did not mean them that way.

To be clear I meant "It is obvious to me on here from things you posted that you do not respect your wife's beliefs at all. You are the one asking for advice so I can only address you. If she was posting I'd be telling her the same thing. It is very important to treat your spouse with respect even if you don't agree with his views. Not just religious but political and whatnot. When you don't respect the views it comes across very clearly to the spouse and also to the child. Down the line this will have far more of a negative impact than the issues at hand now."

So that is what I meant to say. If my way of saying this didn't come across (and I can concede that it may not as it's not the first time I've had this problem) I apologize very sincerely.

But that is really what I meant to say.


Also to MCorrigan I didn't say that but you took it that way. That's OT so revive the thread if you wish to continue your whining there. ;)

And here you have another poster offended by what you have said. I accept your apology, just for the fact that you simply don't understand how you come across to people. I have met people with your personality type before, and it is a rare one. You think you are correct about everything and that everyone also agrees with your point of view. If someone is offended, you automatically think it is that persons fault, not yours. You just simply don't know any better for lack of a better way to put it. You may mean well, but come across as completely intolerable. Others on here feel the same way as I. Perhaps one day you will realize that the things you say come across as offensive, but it's obvious that that day is not today. Regardless, apology accepted.

[TheGoldcountry]

I just don't get why people are so emotional about what they and other people believe.

Because when family is involved, you can't just ignore what they believe, not if you care about them and love them. My sister and I have different feelings about the matter, and we accept that. But that is as adults, and after years of discussion. It's not that simple with children, despite your blithe objections that they will learn on their own.

[truethat]

really? You and everyone on this site basically had to learn on their own. You weren't downloaded information and much of what you were taught you challenged. If you raise an intelligent child it should be a non issue.

[truethat]

And here you have another poster offended by what you have said. I accept your apology, just for the fact that you simply don't understand how you come across to people. I have met people with your personality type before, and it is a rare one. You think you are correct about everything and that everyone also agrees with your point of view. If someone is offended, you automatically think it is that persons fault, not yours. You just simply don't know any better for lack of a better way to put it. You may mean well, but come across as completely intolerable. Others on here feel the same way as I. Perhaps one day you will realize that the things you say come across as offensive, but it's obvious that that day is not today. Regardless, apology accepted.


Not really I'm an INTP and I just don't get emotional about things the way other people do. So if I say something it's purely logical.

And btw most people in real life adore me. Believe it or not. I'm quite compassionate. I just don't equate online message boards with "real life" and tend to be more blunt.

One thing in case we cross paths again, I definitely do not think I'm always right. I often will argue the alternative view or play devils advocate and that causes confusion among some people.

But I'm very willing to admit that I'm wrong or change my mind. I've just got a gaggle of stalkers on this site who feel wronged and get kicks out of trying to pull a pile on.

[TheGoldcountry]

really? so if your spouse suddenly decided to indoctrinate your children with belief in the Gods of Olympus, you would voice no objections, putting faith in the cognitive skills you had taught your children?

[truethat]

really? so if your spouse suddenly decided to indoctrinate your children with belief in the Gods of Olympus, you would voice no objections, putting faith in the cognitive skills you had taught your children?

Yep.


And actually I can prove it. LOL He did worse than that. He tried to convince them about Billy Meiers. My kids saw right through it.
That's a tough one for me to be respectful of. Grrr.

[TheGoldcountry]

Not really I'm an INTP and I just don't get emotional about things the way other people do. So if I say something it's purely logical.

And btw most people in real life adore me. Believe it or not. I'm quite compassionate. I just don't equate online message boards with "real life" and tend to be more blunt.

One thing in case we cross paths again, I definitely do not think I'm always right. I often will argue the alternative view or play devils advocate and that causes confusion among some people.

But I'm very willing to admit that I'm wrong or change my mind. I've just got a gaggle of stalkers on this site who feel wronged and get kicks out of trying to pull a pile on.

I agree with not equating message boards with real life.

You have never demonstrated (in my experience) that you never think you're wrong (I stand ready to be corrected, so don't be angry)

I've never seen you change your mind, even in the face of logic, which you proclaim to hold dear.

I don't get kicks out of piling on you. Every word I say is sincere. I hope yours are too, otherwise I would feel used.

ETA: This is on point, btw. You have proclaimed your passion for equal time regarding religious beliefs taught to children, but I would sincerely like an example when you told your child a private belief that didn't coincide with that of your spouse. (if you decline, I understand, that is a private issue)

[truethat]

No that's not the case although I'm probably very unusual. But my kids have always lived with diversity in their lives and it's not a big deal at all. I don't see what the big frickin' deal is with everyone else, to be honest, but then again I live in Brooklyn NY which is pretty diverse. I imagine it would be harder in the south.

[tsig]

Not really I'm an INTP and I just don't get emotional about things the way other people do. So if I say something it's purely logical.

And btw most people in real life adore me. Believe it or not. I'm quite compassionate. I just don't equate online message boards with "real life" and tend to be more blunt.

One thing in case we cross paths again, I definitely do not think I'm always right. I often will argue the alternative view or play devils advocate and that causes confusion among some people.

But I'm very willing to admit that I'm wrong or change my mind. I've just got a gaggle of stalkers on this site who feel wronged and get kicks out of trying to pull a pile on.

How can you ever be wrong if everything you say is perfectly logical?

[truethat]

This thread is not about ME. Could you all post on my PM page or something because this is getting rude to the OP.


Ex tsig, I used to not understand scientific method very well and I have changed my mind and learned a great deal. There are many things over time I've changed my mind on. I used to not understand transgender issues etc. I have no problem at all changing my mind. But only for logical reasons, not emotional ones.

[TheGoldcountry]

How can you ever be wrong if everything you say is perfectly logical?

In her defense, you can have logic based on unsound facts or principles. (but I don't think that's what she meant)

[TheGoldcountry]

This thread is not about ME. Could you all post on my PM page or something because this is getting rude to the OP.

Can you (or anyone here) imagine a scenario where you would feel compelled to tell your children something you held dear, and knew in your heart and mind to be true, EVEN WHEN YOU KNEW YOUR SPOUSE MIGHT DISAPPROVE?

[Quad4_72]

This thread is not about ME. Could you all post on my PM page or something because this is getting rude to the OP.


Ex tsig, I used to not understand scientific method very well and I have changed my mind and learned a great deal. There are many things over time I've changed my mind on. I used to not understand transgender issues etc. I have no problem at all changing my mind. But only for logical reasons, not emotional ones.

No, what was rude to the OP was making false accusations towards the OP, which in fact were not based on logic which you claim is what you always use. You really should read that long post I made about you closely, as I outlined pretty well the very disrespectful things you said about me that were not in in fact based on logic or anything that I have said.