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View Full Version : [Ed] Petition: Stop teaching acupuncture & chiropractics at RMIT


Orphia Nay
5th May 2012, 12:27 AM
RMIT University: Stop teaching acupuncture and chiropractics as evidence based medicine

http://www.change.org/petitions/rmit-university-stop-teaching-acupuncture-and-chiropractics-as-evidence-based-medicine

In 2011, for its chiropractic course, RMIT University [the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology] was awarded the Bent Spoon [by the Australian Skeptics] which "is presented annually to the perpetrator of the most preposterous piece of paranormal or pseudo-scientific piffle." This is rightly harmful to the reputation of RMIT and harmful to the reputation of science degrees that RMIT offers.

It is important that universities teach and promote science and educate against ignorance or misinformation. Both chiropractics and acupuncture are based on out-dated models and still lack enough strong evidence that demonstrate their effectiveness as treatments.

The scientific method works and for this simple reason, its name is often hijacked in the support of unscientific medicine that can cause harm and prevent or delay patients from seeking proper medical care. If we want to ensure the public makes informed decisions with health care and if we want to keep the trust of the community in science and in our tertiary institutions, then we must criticise pseudo-science and we urge RMIT University to support evidence based medicine.

http://www.skeptics.com.au/latest/announcements/featured-announcement/bent-spoon-to-rmit-soty-to-loretta-marron/

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD005319/acupuncture-for-shoulder-pain

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD005427/combined-chiropractic-interventions-for-low-back-pain

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD001002/manual-therapy-for-asthma

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/%2021923248


Sign, please! :) RMIT is a fine institution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMIT_University) on the whole. It needs a prod to pull up its socks.

Likewise, I shall prod you if you don't sign.

Foolmewunz
5th May 2012, 12:31 AM
Well, since you asked so nicely. (And they say there are no genteel women left in the Antipodes... )

Akhenaten
5th May 2012, 12:35 AM
I've signed, but can I still have the prodding?

Orphia Nay
5th May 2012, 12:42 AM
:newlol :D

Thanks, guys.

Erm, OK, Foolmewunz gets to do the prodding since he was first to sign. :)

lionking
5th May 2012, 12:42 AM
Signed a week ago.

slingblade
5th May 2012, 12:47 AM
Done.


...will you prod me anyway? I'm kinda lonely...


;)

Wudang
5th May 2012, 02:40 AM
You should post in Science & Medicine. A number of posters have a lot of ammo and experience.

Joey McGee
5th May 2012, 02:44 AM
31 Views and the petition has risen about a dozen or so? Shame! :D

Orphia Nay
5th May 2012, 02:49 AM
Right, you're all getting a good prodding!

You should post in Science & Medicine. A number of posters have a lot of ammo and experience.

I was wavering between Community and Sci/Med, but Community gets more traffic (according to the post counts on the Forum Index).

Carnivore
5th May 2012, 03:25 AM
Signed. Prodded separately.

Legend
5th May 2012, 03:31 AM
Doneded.

Malfie Henpox
5th May 2012, 03:52 AM
I signed and I suck.

slingblade
5th May 2012, 07:08 AM
I put a link to the petition on my FB as well. :)

wollery
5th May 2012, 08:15 AM
Signed

GlennB
5th May 2012, 08:30 AM
It kept freaking out and refreshing when I clicked "Outside US". When I pretended to live in Delaware it spat at me and hurled verbal abuse. So I prodded the screen. Well, actually, in the spirit of homeopathy I just thought about prodding it.

jhunter1163
5th May 2012, 08:57 AM
OK, I signed. Now where's my prodding?

Oh... if I don't sign... gotta read these things more carefully.

Foolmewunz
5th May 2012, 09:00 AM
Right, you're all getting a good prodding!



I was wavering between Community and Sci/Med, but Community gets more traffic (according to the post counts on the Forum Index).

That's a serious misconception. Visitors can't see Community and we have a ratio of about 3:5 members to visitors. Also, look at the Forum Main Page (click the JREF Forum tag at the top of this page) and you can see number of people attending at any one time. Right this very minute that I'm typing there are 54 people viewing Sci/Math and 10 viewing Community. I'm not sure why the Index would show higher post counts. Maybe because Community has been around for a number of years more? I'm not sure.

Sideroxylon
5th May 2012, 10:18 AM
Done. Seriously? RMIT are "teaching acupuncture and chiropractics as evidence based medicine"? That's telling porkies.

Orphia Nay
5th May 2012, 03:35 PM
I put a link to the petition on my FB as well. :)

Thank you! That's the idea, people! :thumbsup:

Thanks to all who have signed so far.

That's a serious misconception. Visitors can't see Community and we have a ratio of about 3:5 members to visitors. Also, look at the Forum Main Page (click the JREF Forum tag at the top of this page) and you can see number of people attending at any one time. Right this very minute that I'm typing there are 54 people viewing Sci/Math and 10 viewing Community. I'm not sure why the Index would show higher post counts. Maybe because Community has been around for a number of years more? I'm not sure.

Well, darn. I shall see if I can get it moved. Thanks, FMW.

BravesFan
5th May 2012, 03:44 PM
I am going to sign, but does Australia recognize signatures from non citizens?


This will not preclude me from signing btw, just wondering.

Amapola
5th May 2012, 03:49 PM
I am going to sign, but does Australia recognize signatures from non citizens?


This will not preclude me from signing btw, just wondering.

I had the impression it was in the USA... :confused: Probably I'm not paying enough attention.

lionking
5th May 2012, 04:15 PM
Done. Seriously? RMIT are "teaching acupuncture and chiropractics as evidence based medicine"? That's telling porkies.

There are traineeships, funded by state and federal governments in Ayurvedic Lifestyle Management (amongst other rubbish). This "discipline" claims to date from pre-historic times where sharp stones were used on acupuncture points. I'll look up who does the training.

ETA the Sunshine Coast Institute of TAFE is one. Not that far removed from RMIT

The Nimble Pianist
5th May 2012, 05:01 PM
I gotta say, I'm a little reluctant to sign. Isn't this how things like creationism and even "alternative" medicine get put in curricula, by popularity vote?

BravesFan
5th May 2012, 06:04 PM
I had the impression it was in the USA... :confused: Probably I'm not paying enough attention.

you are prolly right (I just saw Royal Melbourn Inst. of Tech and assumed Aussie)

Signed btw, prod at your leisure

Kepler
5th May 2012, 07:13 PM
Thank you Orphia Nay for sharing the petition :)

I gotta say, I'm a little reluctant to sign. Isn't this how things like creationism and even "alternative" medicine get put in curricula, by popularity vote?
That is a fair point, if the argument against teaching pseudo-science hadn't already been made by people that know far more about science and medicine than I do, then I probably would not of made the petition. However RMIT has already been made aware of the fact that they are teaching and promoting quack medicine by groups such as Australian Skeptics and Friends of Science in Medicine. Yet in the face of criticism, School of Health Sciences at RMIT has publicly defended their alternative medicine program.

RMIT needs to realise the amount of harm they are doing to their reputation (therefore possibly discouraging students and funding), and that it isn't just academics that have problem with it. RMIT can just ignore the petition but at the very least it will inform some people about the issue.

I will also add that while RMIT University is in Australia, it has currently 12,000 international students enrolled and which they charge more to study. So it is not a problem if people from other nations sign the petition.

Alan
5th May 2012, 08:22 PM
I studied science at RMIT from 2006 to 2008, within the school of health sciences, and I encountered a few chiropractic students. I didn't encounter any acupuncture students to my knowledge.

I will also add that while RMIT University is in Australia, it has currently 12,000 international students enrolled and which they charge more to study. So it is not a problem if people from other nations sign the petition.
There are also two campuses in Vietnam, and my understanding is that international students are always charged more in Australia due to a lack of subsidies but I'm not certain (so I don't think it's a decision from RMIT to charge them more).

you are prolly right (I just saw Royal Melbourn Inst. of Tech and assumed Aussie)

Signed btw, prod at your leisure
It is in Australia. And Vietnam.

Kepler
5th May 2012, 08:37 PM
I studied science at RMIT from 2006 to 2008 and I encountered a few chiropractic students. I didn't encounter any acupuncture students to my knowledge.
I don't know how many do study acupuncture but RMIT does offer Master of Applied Science (Acupuncture). And for one subject,
Course Description

Acupuncture Theory and Practice 1 is crucial for studentsí learning of Acupuncture Theory and Practice 2, Acupuncture Techniques, and Clinical Chinese Medicine 1-3. This course aims to develop knowledge and skills relating to basic theory of the meridian system and acupuncture points, including connections and Qi flow direction, symptoms and signs of the 8 out of 14 meridians; to accurately locate and trace meridians and points; and to understand the functions, indications, contraindications and the anatomical basis of 220 out of 405 acupoints to enable students to apply these clinically.


There are also two campuses in Vietnam, and my understanding is that international students are always charged more in Australia due to a lack of subsidies but I'm not certain (so I don't think it's a decision from RMIT to charge them more).
You could be right about the subsidies, regardless they receive a significant amount of money from international students.

fishbob
5th May 2012, 11:07 PM
Signed, but as yet unproddeded.

Orphia Nay
5th May 2012, 11:16 PM
Thanks to all who have signed.

*Does the prod dance*
:eusa_dance:

:w2: Hi, Kepler! I didn't know you were a member here. Glad you found the thread. That saves me from trying to stalk you on Facebook. :D ;)

Kepler
5th May 2012, 11:40 PM
Thanks to all who have signed.

*Does the prod dance*
:eusa_dance:

:w2: Hi, Kepler! I didn't know you were a member here. Glad you found the thread. That saves me from trying to stalk you on Facebook. :D ;)

I was debating a 9/11 conspiracy theorist online and found this place a handy resource. And I have occasionally lurked here ever since.

Feel free to stalk me on facebook though :)

rjh01
5th May 2012, 11:54 PM
I have signed the petition.

Orphia Nay
6th May 2012, 03:23 AM
I was debating a 9/11 conspiracy theorist online and found this place a handy resource. And I have occasionally lurked here ever since.

Feel free to stalk me on facebook though :)

Done. :)

9/11 CTs, eh? We have a lot to talk about, in another forum. :)


Thanks, rjh01, and whomever has signed recently. :thumbsup:

rjh01
7th May 2012, 05:24 AM
Only 177 signatures out of 3,000 required. Not enough. The last 77 took 9 days.

What happens when 3,000 signatures are collected?

not_so_new
7th May 2012, 09:42 AM
Signed... and I am gonna be out of the office for a few days so can I set up my prodding for next week please?

Yuri Nalyssus
8th May 2012, 09:40 AM
Signed - it got my name wrong though, seems the Nalyssus family isn't good enough for them - it's OK though, I used a pseudonym!

Yuri

Orphia Nay
8th May 2012, 06:55 PM
Signed... and I am gonna be out of the office for a few days so can I set up my prodding for next week please?

Sure thing. I can prod on demand, so long as you sign (or don't sign). :)

Signed - it got my name wrong though, seems the Nalyssus family isn't good enough for them - it's OK though, I used a pseudonym!

Yuri

:D You do have such a nice 'real' name, Yuri. :)

Yuri Nalyssus
9th May 2012, 04:50 AM
:D You do have such a nice 'real' name, Yuri. :)
Aw shucks! :blush:

Yuri

Blue Bubble
10th May 2012, 02:41 AM
Signed (Roy Omond, Great Chesterford, UK).

Orphia Nay
10th May 2012, 02:50 AM
:thumbsup: Thanks! *prod* :)

Acleron
10th May 2012, 10:10 AM
Signed

Orphia Nay
12th May 2012, 02:02 AM
Thanks, Acleron!

Senex
14th May 2012, 01:04 AM
I've signed, but can I still have the prodding?

Who taught you negotiating 101. You don't just sign. Here, watch...

Oh Orphia, I'm un certain about this petition, I could sign it but I'm having second thoughts :rolleyes: I may need assuaging...

Senex
16th May 2012, 04:39 AM
Who taught you negotiating 101. You don't just sign. Here, watch...

Oh Orphia, I'm un certain about this petition, I could sign it but I'm having second thoughts :rolleyes: I may need assuaging...

Do you see Akhenaten? When Orphia ignores me she only further demonstrates how much she cares. Do you see how this works? Follow my lead and you can be as popular as me with the girls.

mijopaalmc
16th May 2012, 01:00 PM
Can someone point out specifically where the "supporting" research says that chiropractic and acupuncture are interventions that shouldn't be used for all medical conditions?

rjh01
16th May 2012, 02:09 PM
Just had a thought. We could all sign this several times each. Just use different browsers, names and e-mails addresses.

Akhenaten
16th May 2012, 02:39 PM
Just had a thought. We could all sign this several times each. Just use different browsers, names and e-mails addresses.





Because lying on a petition designed to help put an end to people perpetrating a lie is just so obviously the right thing to do, isn't it?

rjh01
16th May 2012, 03:03 PM
Because lying on a petition designed to help put an end to people perpetrating a lie is just so obviously the right thing to do, isn't it?

Irrelevant. It shows how worthless such petitions are. Any idiot could sign it. Even one who has never been in Australia.

Orphia Nay
16th May 2012, 03:08 PM
Who taught you negotiating 101. You don't just sign. Here, watch...

Oh Orphia, I'm un certain about this petition, I could sign it but I'm having second thoughts :rolleyes: I may need assuaging...

Do you see Akhenaten? When Orphia ignores me she only further demonstrates how much she cares. Do you see how this works? Follow my lead and you can be as popular as me with the girls.

Sorry, Senex. For that, you get a prod AND a poke. :)

Orphia Nay
16th May 2012, 03:12 PM
Just had a thought. We could all sign this several times each. Just use different browsers, names and e-mails addresses.

Irrelevant. It shows how worthless such petitions are. Any idiot could sign it. Even one who has never been in Australia.

So, you were recommending people be idiots? Please don't.

Senex
16th May 2012, 05:28 PM
Sorry, Senex. For that, you get a prod AND a poke. :)

hehehe... how easy is it to make my day ;)

Orphia Nay
17th May 2012, 12:30 AM
hehehe... how easy is it to make my day ;)

Awww. :)

Right, who hasn't voted yet?

Senex
17th May 2012, 02:14 AM
Awww. :)

Right, who hasn't voted yet?

That would be me. I'm not completely dimwitted but I do need some help ;)

Orphia Nay
17th May 2012, 02:48 AM
That would be me. I'm not completely dimwitted but I do need some help ;)

Will it help if I slap you? :) ;)

Senex
17th May 2012, 03:24 AM
Will it help if I slap you? :) ;)

My bare bottom?

hehehe...However, I like to do the slapping and you are a good sport but no deal.

You are a special person and I wish you the best ;)

Orphia Nay
17th May 2012, 03:45 AM
My bare bottom?

hehehe...However, I like to do the slapping and you are a good sport but no deal.

You are a special person and I wish you the best ;)

Thanks. :)

Now how can I help you sign the petition?

Senex
17th May 2012, 05:27 AM
Oh yeah,

You put up with my all my bulloney,

I can sign the petition.