I'm one step closer to being published! Questions for those who have been published.

[C_Felix]

(Mods, if this goes anywhere else...my apologies.)


I got the infamous form letter, plus a "reader's report" on my book.

I'm more than willing to share the reader's report, but, i don't feel like posting it here.

Question is about the "publishing proposal"

I'm trying not to cut and paste toooooo much, isn't that a breach of a rule?

But...here's the "nuts and bolts" and the part I'd like input on.

Our Tier 3 service will provide you with 1,000 perfect bound (soft cover) copies of How Do You Know? You will own the copyright and all subsidiary rights to the book. We will function as the publisher (the book will have an Ivy House imprint).

We will professionally edit your manuscript for grammar and style, and you will see two sets of proofs so that you will have ample time to make appropriate changes. We’ll also help to fact-check your manuscript to make sure that your factual evidence is as solid as possible in backing up your thoughts. Our graphic designers will work with you to make sure that the text and illustrations are laid out in a visually appealing and practical format.

Experienced copywriters will create the cover copy for your book—pending your approval, of course.

Ivy House will take care of sending the appropriate number of published copies to be registered with the U.S. Copyright Office. Additionally, we will obtain a U.S. Library of Congress Control Number, an International Standard Book Number (ISBN) and a Bookland EAN bar code, all of which are necessary for the book trade. We will also make sure that your book is listed in the nationally subscribed annual publications, Books in Print (US) and Nielsen Book Data (UK and Europe), which are computerized ordering resources for libraries and bookstores.

Of course, an important part of making your books available to these stores is our affiliation with a book distributor. This distributor will have the ability to make your book available to the industry’s leading book wholesalers Ingram and Baker & Taylor. This means your book will be accessible to the 17,000 libraries, 6,500 bookstores and 4,000 universities in the US that comprise Ingram and Baker & Taylor’s customer lists. In addition, Ivy House’s titles are accessible through the largest Internet bookstore, Amazon.com, as well as others.

You will own all 1,000 copies of the book (you never have to “buy” them back like you do with Print-on-Demand publishers). Instead of shipping the books directly to you, we will warehouse them for you for one year. The books will be available to you at anytime, as we will ship any number of them to you free of charge.

In addition to warehousing the books for one year, we will take care of order fulfillment. Anytime a bookstore or individual contacts the distributor or us with an order, we will take care of recording and shipping it. You will receive quarterly royalty statements detailing each and every sale, and checks for the proceeds of your sales. You will receive 100% net royalties on all sales.

This will leave you free to put more energy toward marketing your book (which will in turn result in more sales!). We’ll be helping you out all along the way, and keeping you up to date on the current trends in the industry. Of course, we must point out that a book’s success depends most highly upon its author’s motivation to actively promote the work through a willingness to attend promotional events and an initiative to create excitement about it. However, we will provide you with the necessary resources to get you off on the right foot.

We will execute a direct mail approach, as it is a highly effective form of selling books. This will include databases of names that you provide, as well as targeted media, libraries, and bookstores that may be interested in reviewing or purchasing your book. Our marketing team will send review copies, with your approval, to target markets, as well as to Publisher’s Weekly, Kirkus, Booklist, and Library Journal. The marketing plan will also include making use of the Internet market since we provide information about your book to Amazon.com and other popular websites such as Barnes and Noble’s online bookstore, as well as our own recently remodeled site. You will also receive 1,000 4 x 6 inch color promotional postcards, designed specifically for your book.

Published in a 6” x 9” soft cover format with a full color cover, the cost for an initial print run of 1,000 copies of How Do You Know?, including all of the services and benefits outlined above, would be $16,590.00. Based on a formula of 50% of your books being sold to the trade at a discount, and 50% sold directly at full cover price, the recommended retail price would be $21.95. Of course, you have the final say in this.

The typical publishing time frame is 9 to 12 months. The normal payment schedule requires 3 equal installments: the first being due upon finalization of the publishing agreement, the second approximately midway through the publishing process, and the final installment upon receipt of advance copies. After the final installment, you would begin to recoup your investment from revenue derived from sales of the book. Remember, the author receives all revenue from all books sold in the first edition; that’s 100% royalties on all net sales.




So....anyone who has been through this process have any input? Anything which stands out as "good" "bad" or "DEAR LORD!"

I'm assuming a form letter like this is pretty standard for the business, right? And all these condidtions and whatnot are pretty much standard, right?

It'll cost me $16,600 or so to get 1,000 copies and the most I can make is around $5,500 on the first run of 1,000 copies. (If I'm lucky enough to get another run.)


To quote King Arthur, "Any help you can offer will be...uh...helpful"

[truethat]

How are you being "published" if you are paying for your own publication? I have a self published book, I wouldn't refer to myself as being "published" at all. So that's just a first thing. YOU published a book. You haven't "been published."

Basically it looks like print on demand. The good thing is that they have an editor which I didn't, big pain. But if it is POD and it's based out of Raliegh NC why do you need so many copies? Mine is listed on Amazon as are most other POD writers I know and the public can buy it there.

You seem like you are getting majorly ripped off if you want my opinion. They are housing your book for you? And then they talk about distribution? How are you planning on selling this book? Mine is only a test prep guide that I use for my classes and have sold elsewhere so it's not a "book book" if you know what I mean.

But I do think you are paying a whole lotta money for nothing. The time frame for the publication is bizarre 9-12 MONTHS?

Just to give you a frame of reference. I do not market my book and it's ranked 100,000ish out of 8 million books on Amazon.com. (that's actually a very high ranking considering)

The people can buy in bulk from Amazon direct. I paid $600 for my book to get published. I really think you are getting ripped off. They are actually acting like they are providing you a service by sending the book out when it's ordered. ???????????? Unless you are getting 100 percent of the royalties off the book, they are using you to make money and acting like they are doing you a favor.

My mother published 18 self published books, and she's an expert. They try to pretend that they are "marketing" for you and will continually try to get you to pay for things that will help "Sell" your book. TOTAL BS. In fact once they sent me an offer to pay $3,000 to go on a radio show that no one would listen to, to be interviewed in order to market the book. RIGHT. If they wanted to help you market the book they would give you free post cards, book marks, posters and free copies with stands to take into stores.

I'd invest in FB advertising if I had that kind of money to spend. You can target customers specifically.

PM me if you want more information.

[DallasDad]

If you pay anything at all, it's not legit. You may distinguish vanity publication from real publication by examining the direction of the money flow. In real publishing, money flows toward the author.

There are many legitimate reasons for self-publishing a book, with or without the help of an agency like the one you describe. In those cases, you pay for the service, just as you'd pay for any other service. However, it's not the same as "being published." When a real publisher picks up your book, they're placing a bet that they can make money by selling it to readers. Toward that end, they give you an advance against sales, and then royalties on actual sales. Groups like the one you describe are not planning to make any money by selling your book to readers: they make all of their money by selling your book to you. It's valled "vanity publishing" for a reason.

If your book is the next big blockbuster (or even just a decent read), you can do better. Even throwing it out on Amazon without any promo will likely net you a few cents, and you can always sell movie or reprint rights if it catches on.

[JWideman]

Ivy House is a known vanity press. Stay away. Way away.

[truethat]

Vanity presses can be useful. You retain your copy right and if you sell your book on Amazon what difference does it make? For me I used a different company and it is cheaper to buy the published book than it is to print copies. It gives my company a bit more of legitimacy etc.

But paying 16 THOUSAND DOLLARS? Holy crap that is INSANE. You sound like you have a big old "Sucker" stamp on your forehead.

They house your book? They house the book ANYWAY! My books are housed and bought in bulk etc. You are paying out for all these books and will never recoup the money and it's not going to help you sell the book.

Stay away is right. Publish the book and buy maybe 100 copies and go around doing a few book signings and whatnot. Put up a website with a link to the book.

But you are really being ripped off.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Dude, you're hopefully still reading the writing thread. In particular the advice in these posts:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=8256160#post8256160

Especially this one: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=8256489#post8256489


If you've checked all that and you like the publisher and the contract, then Hooray!!!!

[Skeptic Ginger]

Ivy House is a known vanity press. Stay away. Way away.
Where are you getting that from? They don't have any warning noted on Predators and Editors. (http://pred-ed.com/pebi.htm)


I don't know anything, mind you, I'm learning as I go.

[Tiktaalik]

Well, my novel has only been published as an ebook (by a publisher), so I'm not as familiar with the print business, but $16,000 sounds like an awful lot. I didn't pay anything and won't even if it comes out in paperback. They pay for the cover art, editor, listing services, and take a cut as their profit. Should work the same for print, I'd think, with the exception of up-front printing costs, which they should bear until such time as you "buy back" any left-over copies from the run. That's why you use publishers: so their business can bear the costs up front. Otherwise, you might as well self-publish through createspace or KDP. It's a lot cheaper!

ETA: Ivy House is listed as a "subsidy publisher". I'm not real sure what that means, but their page reads like a vanity press - you bear some (all) of the costs...

[MG1962]

Where are you getting that from? They don't have any warning noted on Predators and Editors. (http://pred-ed.com/pebi.htm)


I don't know anything, mind you, I'm learning as I go.

It is an unwritten rule in the publishing industry - if you ever publish fiction through vanity press you can kiss your writing career good bye.

If your writing was any good a publisher would be paying you for the honor of dealing with your book

[truethat]

It is an unwritten rule in the publishing industry - if you ever publish fiction through vanity press you can kiss your writing career good bye.

If your writing was any good a publisher would be paying you for the honor of dealing with your book

That's kind of BS. There are many different reasons that people publish. If you want to make money publishing "self help books" (which comes across as the kind of book the OP is writing) then why not just do self publishing?

Instruction manuals, informational guides, pulp fiction, romance novels etc.

If you want to be Dickens then that's a whole different ball game. There are quite a few self published writers who make a pretty penny that way through ebooks and whatnot.

[Craig4]

(Mods, if this goes anywhere else...my apologies.)


I got the infamous form letter, plus a "reader's report" on my book.

I'm more than willing to share the reader's report, but, i don't feel like posting it here.

Question is about the "publishing proposal"

I'm trying not to cut and paste toooooo much, isn't that a breach of a rule?

But...here's the "nuts and bolts" and the part I'd like input on.





So....anyone who has been through this process have any input? Anything which stands out as "good" "bad" or "DEAR LORD!"

I'm assuming a form letter like this is pretty standard for the business, right? And all these condidtions and whatnot are pretty much standard, right?

It'll cost me $16,600 or so to get 1,000 copies and the most I can make is around $5,500 on the first run of 1,000 copies. (If I'm lucky enough to get another run.)


To quote King Arthur, "Any help you can offer will be...uh...helpful"


Don't do it. Keep slugging away at getting an agent to take on your project. I know it's frustrating but you're going to close doors in the future if you go this route. The only place a writer signs a check is on the back.

[Ray Brady]

$16 a copy for soft cover? That sounds like a terrible deal. If I were inclined to self-publish, I would lean in the direction of something like Amazon's CreateSpace. It wouldn't cost you anything upfront, and they have a host of resources available to help you promote your book online.

I don't know how much effort you've taken yet to getting this out to agents or legitimate publishers, but if it's been less than two years, I'd say you still haven't exhausted that particular vein.

[baron]

I get the same feeling reading that as when I read Dr Ogunsanya's email saying he has $23m waiting for me and all that's needed is for me to pay the processing fee. That's unfair as this isn't a scam but the distinction is academic because you'll lose a load of money and get nothing in return. Note the net sales clause and don't confuse it with gross sales. Big difference.

Either publish your work yourself as an ebook or via Kindle or try to drum up some interest from agents and publishers. If you're lucky you'll get yourself an agent or a deal, or a qualified response to your submission (which is often worth a great deal, far more than the suck-up response from vanity publishers who just want to blow smoke up your ass to secure the deal). A lack of interest can be disappointing but bear in mind those outlets you would otherwise be trying to sell to under the vanity press agreement would exhibit a similar lack of interest, the only difference being that your bank account would be $17,000 lighter.

[C_Felix]

:o
:eek:

:jaw-dropp


To use an NFL term, "The play is under review"

[MG1962]

That's kind of BS. There are many different reasons that people publish. If you want to make money publishing "self help books" (which comes across as the kind of book the OP is writing) then why not just do self publishing?

Instruction manuals, informational guides, pulp fiction, romance novels etc.

If you want to be Dickens then that's a whole different ball game. There are quite a few self published writers who make a pretty penny that way through ebooks and whatnot.

I specifically said fiction and was not responding to the OP but the skeptic ginger's question. In the 10 years I was in the business I only saw one author break through the vanity press wall - and to be frank he was easily he worst author I have ever read professionally published

[Ray Brady]

Felix, I'm not familiar with the details of your publishing efforts to date. Have you discussed them in another thread here? Have you solicited your book with agents or small presses?

[lionking]

It is an unwritten rule in the publishing industry - if you ever publish fiction through vanity press you can kiss your writing career good bye.

If your writing was any good a publisher would be paying you for the honor of dealing with your book

Try telling that to Matthew Reilly:

Reilly wrote his first book, Contest, at the age of 19 and self-published it in 1996.

[MG1962]

Try telling that to Matthew Reilly:

Yep - see my post #15 for my opinion on him. Ice Station Is the specific book I am talking about

[JWideman]

Self-publishing is less of a stigma these days, since the only ones that cared were the Big Six - who have dropped the midlist anyway.
I would recommend a first time author go through a publisher. The small press, especially ebook, is booming.
As for Ivy House, they claim to be a subsidy publisher (they get a cut of your action) but actually they make their money from the fees they charge you to publish. That is the definition of a vanity press.

[Skeptic Ginger]

One of our Seattle skeptic members recently published this book, Cross Examined (http://www.amazon.com/Cross-Examined-Unconventional-Spiritual-Journey/dp/1468011332). I don't see any publisher listed but I can't recall what he said about self publishing. I don't think it's his first book. I haven't read it yet but our group leader was impressed with it.

I have no idea how many copies were printed or if they only get printed when you purchase them. There are all those other shippers besides Amazon and I have no idea how that works. When I get closer to being finished I plan to ask him more about it. But right now I have to finish writing the thing before I can get too involved in the publishing details.

I see his Kindle version is now down to $2.99 so I'll be buying it soon.

[truethat]

I actually think publishing is going to be changing very soon. I consider self publishing what Moby did when he sold his song to the car commercial.

You can get your message out there. Also you own the copyright. So you can republish it. Yes the old fashioned ways of publishing still dominate but I think it will change faster than we realize.

Plus you can make a ton of money doing so.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/01/self-published-author-amada-hocking_n_829906.html

[MG1962]

I actually think publishing is going to be changing very soon. I consider self publishing what Moby did when he sold his song to the car commercial.

You can get your message out there. Also you own the copyright. So you can republish it. Yes the old fashioned ways of publishing still dominate but I think it will change faster than we realize.

Plus you can make a ton of money doing so.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/01/self-published-author-amada-hocking_n_829906.html

Amanda Hocking doesn't seem to agree with you

http://www.forbes.com/sites/booked/2011/04/04/advice-for-amanda-hocking-from-authors-and-agents/

[truethat]

Where, I see lots of people talking to Amanda Hocking, but not her disagreeing at all? She turned it over after her success. Which is logical considering she's getting a 2 million dollar contract. Most contracts like that require work.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Amanda Hocking doesn't seem to agree with you

http://www.forbes.com/sites/booked/2011/04/04/advice-for-amanda-hocking-from-authors-and-agents/It's not how I read that. From what I read, Hocking sold millions self publishing then got a couple million dollar deal and a few die hard 'indie' fans whined she was going establishment. The woman got her claim to fame purely self published first.

[MG1962]

It's not how I read that. From what I read, Hocking sold millions self publishing then got a couple million dollar deal and a few die hard 'indie' fans whined she was going establishment. The woman got her claim to fame purely self published first.

My point is despite self publishing she still saw the traditional model as the one that best suited her needs

[Skeptic Ginger]

My point is despite self publishing she still saw the traditional model as the one that best suited her needsWell heck yeah when they are offering you a couple million. :)

The way I see it is, when you have the money you hire people.

[truethat]

She didn't "Still saw" she got a two million dollar contract and needed help. LOL

[MG1962]

She didn't "Still saw" she got a two million dollar contract and needed help. LOL

What did she need help for - she made a million dollars with first book, you have just argued yourself in a complete circle

[MG1962]

Well heck yeah when they are offering you a couple million. :)

The way I see it is, when you have the money you hire people.

But she hired no one she signed a four book deal for 2 million dollars

[truethat]

What did she need help for - she made a million dollars with first book, you have just argued yourself in a complete circle

This is a classic example of why I get bitchy on this site.

Seriously can you reread everything you wrote and said and everything I wrote and said and then

USE COMMON SENSE

[Skeptic Ginger]

But she hired no one she signed a four book deal for 2 million dollarsShe said she was delegating. That she got paid in advance does not change the effective hiring direction of the writer giving the publisher a cut, i.e. payment for a service.

[Tiktaalik]

There's a difference between a Vanity Publisher and self-publishing. A vanity publisher is someone you pay to produce your book. Self-publishing in today's digital age is a very viable option, in fact in some cases it makes more sense than finding an agent or publisher. Some of the better known self-publishing avenues are createspace or smashwords (for print-on-demand) and Amazon KDP (for ebooks). They are free to use and upload. You choose the price and percentage you receive. You're also responsible for your own publicity, but Amazon has several programs that help (free give-aways, rating system, category system). This option has risen in both popularity and prestige in just the last two years.

A publisher (traditional route) can get you an editor, cover art, some reviews, do the listings, and get you some publicity. You can also get those things yourself.

Full disclosure, I've done both. I have a novel up through a trad publisher, but also several shorts and a collection up through KDP. At this point they seem pretty equal to me.

[gumboot]

There's a difference between a Vanity Publisher and self-publishing.



This. Particularly with the surge in popularity of eBooks. Once upon a time self-publishing = vanity publishing, but it's no longer true, and the two should not be confused.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I know I buy a lot more books for my Kindle than I would have bought in print because of the cost. It's nothing to buy a $3.00 book, I don't think too hard over it. I just bought a $30 book at a book event and it's the first one I've bought out of the last 20 book events I've been to. (Book event as in the author comes to present the book.)

[Senex]

My woo sense is tingling -- you never pay to get a job they are supposed to pay you. Do not pay that scoundrel.

[C_Felix]

I feel I'm gonna need a week off from work to sort through all of this.

Plus, I think there should be sticky thread about "how to get published: Trials and Tribulations of Members."

[C_Felix]

I want to avoid Publish on Demand?

(And if the answer is YES, then you want to avoid it as well.)

[truethat]

I'm confused, you thought you were really getting published? That must suck as a wake up call. Sorry man.

[C_Felix]

I'm confused, you thought you were really getting published? That must suck as a wake up call. Sorry man.

ggggggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

and

:boxedin:

[Tiktaalik]

I want to avoid Publish on Demand?

(And if the answer is YES, then you want to avoid it as well.)

Do you mean PRINT on demand? If so, the answer is: not necessarily. If you are publishing on your own through createspace or smashwords, that's how it works. You do not have to pay up front for a print run,nor do you pay for shipping. You create your manuscript & cover (which is much more complicated than creating an ebook cover), upload your information, and agree to take a certain cut of the proceeds, while the service takes the rest. The service - whether Amazon or someone else - is responsible for fulfilling all orders as they are requested.

So, here's the breakdown of current publication options:

1) Traditional publisher, no agent: you work directly with a publisher who may publish a) ebook b) hard-cover c) soft-cover in 1) print-on-demand or 2) print run. (Note: this is what I did for "Stolen")

2) Traditional agent/publisher relationship. See above, but the agent gets a cut & takes more responsibility.

3) Vanity publisher: you pay someone to produce your book.

4) Self-publishing, ebook: you upload your manuscript and cover to a service like Amazon KDP. You get access to certain advertising options & publicity. (Note: this is what I've done for my other publications)

5) Self-publishing, hard-copy (hard cover or soft cover): you upload your manuscript and cover to a service like createspace, which is print-on-demand.

6) Self-publishing, print run: you pay a service to do a print run and then sell your own books - basically vanity publishing but you aren't going through an intermediary. Not a very popular option.

I think that covers it...

Note that no matter which option you choose, you will be responsible for the lion's share of the publicity.

[The Don]

Mummy and Daddy Don went the route of self-publishing for Mummy Don's books. After being quoted £000's to get the books published they decided to do as much of it themselves (they are retired so have the time) so.....


Daddy Don proof read the books (there are three) about a million times and got them in a format the printers were happy with. By taking responsibilty for this, and pagination, they saved a fortune
They found a printer who would print the books 50 at a time to order, quickly at about £3 a copy
Daddy Don spent months pushing the books to UK libraries, blogging etc etc
They can make a (small) profit selling the books at £7 a pop


After 5 years of hard graft Daddy Don (Mummy Don died in the interim) has sold a couple of thousand books. Currently he ships 10-20 a month in hardcopy and about twice that as eBooks. There have also been 3,000+ loans of the books from the libraries in the UK.

Based on the strength of the UK sales he now has two book deals in Portuguese. One for Brazil and another for the rest of the Portuguese-speaking world. These deals came with a small advance (€2000-3000 for each) and now that they have sold a few thousand copies (it helps to have a publisher to help with promotions) a small royalty cheque comes in from time to time.

The primary objective was to get my Mum's books in front of people. Thanks to the enormous amount of effort my Dad put in, they've managed to do this and turn a small profit (as long as you don't count my Dad's time) with the added bonus that my Dad has something to do since the death of my Mum which both keeps him busy and reminds him of her.

Self-publishing doesn't have to be a financial disaster if you have the time, application and perseverance.

[JWideman]

I want to avoid Publish on Demand?

No, you want to avoid being a sucker and giving someone a bunch of money to print your book and make you buy copies.
Print On Demand, or POD as it's more commonly called, is just a way to keep startup costs low. Beware, however, as a lot of the scammers claim that they are a "POD publisher". This is a lie. They are POD printers. There's no such thing as a "POD publisher". There are legitimate services that provide POD printing, and there are legitimate publishers that use POD. These are not the same things, nor are they the same thing as a "POD publisher".
Hope this helps.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I mentioned this in the other thread but it's worth noting here. It's just some trivia about "50 Shades of Grey" which is a rather poorly written book that became a best seller. It was originally written as free fan fiction on the net and even used the Twilight names, Bella and Edward and included some of the other characters. After being available for free and getting 30,000 hits it was rewritten as a book with the names changed. I found that interesting. Giving it away for free is not necessarily a death nell for future commercializing of a book.

[truethat]

My book is a test prep book that is part of the class. If you view POD as a marketing tool you can do very well with it. I don't think you necessarily are crossing some taboo if you are writing they type of book the OP is writing. If you want to be a great writer and part of literature, then this is not necessarily the way to go. However I would imagine that 20 years from now, these won't even be true. Part of what these POD places push is marketing techniques than can be helpful if you don't know what you are doing. But you'd be better off just asking other POD writers what worked for them than paying out a ton of money for "marketing" plans.