Time for the Stars by Robert A. Heinlein

[tamiO]

I am two thirds the way through this book and I am really liking it. He really makes telepathy sound like a possibility, rather than a woo-woo dream.

I haven't had much time to read before, but now that I am disabled I am lucky to have a shelf full of paperback science fiction novels. I had read "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Mr. Heinlein, so I knew it would be well written.

What should I read next?

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by tamiO
What should I read next?

Anything by Issac Asimov, especially The Caves of Steel and The Naked Sun. Check out the short story Nightfall too.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne


Anything by Issac Asimov, especially The Caves of Steel and The Naked Sun. Check out the short story Nightfall too.

Naah. Asimov next to Heinlein is like More Menthols next to Lucky Strikes.

More great Heinlein, in order of what I think you ought to read next:

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Time Enough for Love
The Green Hills of Earth (early short stories he's famous for)
The "Future History" compilation

Oh God, there's a mountain of it. Help me out here Cleopatra.

Believe it or not the one you're reading is one of his "juvenile" titles.


APPLICABILITY OF THIS POST TO THE JREF MISSION:

Heinlein is a no-nonsense critical thinker whom anyone would do well to emulate, or at least study.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by tamiO
I am two thirds the way through this book and I am really liking it. He really makes telepathy sound like a possibility, rather than a woo-woo dream.

I haven't had much time to read before, but now that I am disabled I am lucky to have a shelf full of paperback science fiction novels. I had read "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Mr. Heinlein, so I knew it would be well written.

What should I read next?

The Anubis Gates by Tim Powers.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0441004016/103-1344239-1691064?v=glance#product-details

[tamiO]

I think more Heinlein, too. I will check out Anubis Gates by Tim Powers, see if it's on the shelf. I know there is Asimov there, too.

Thanks. :)

[LucyR]

"The long dark tea-time of the soul" by Douglas Adams

One of my favourites (not SF but he does write that too) is

"The wasp factory" by Ian Banks.

[BillyTK]

I'd recommend reading The Moon is a Harsh Mistress back-to-back with Ken MacLeod's The Stone Canal for complementary readings of the whole "Libertarians in Space" thing.

Stay away from The Number of the Beast and Friday; Heinlein really doesn't know how to write women characters—they're either good little housewifes or men with boobs—and these two books really highlight his failings.

Originally posted by Sundog
Heinlein is a no-nonsense critical thinker whom anyone would do well to emulate, or at least study.

Starship Troopers? Farnham's Freehold?

:p ;) :D

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by BillyTK
Starship Troopers? Farnham's Freehold?

Starship Troopers epitomises the worst in Science Fiction. Although not a bad book in its own right, it could be turned into a Western or a war novel with very little effort, and its Cold War origins are painfully obvious. I prefer my Sci-Fi to be liberating and escapist, something that makes you think rather than just pasting spacemen and aliens over a bog-standard 'goodies and baddies' plot. That's why I prefer Asimov.

I've never read Farnham's Freehold, but I've been told it's very racist. Is this true?

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
I've never read Farnham's Freehold, but I've been told it's very racist. Is this true?
Farnham's Freehold is set in a future world in which Europe and the US have been wiped out by a nuclear war, and Africans and Asians have "taken over" as the "Chosen Race", and the surviving whites are kept as slaves or as food. Taking that premise at face value might indicate racism on Heinlein's part, the exaggerated role-reversal is more of a satire on (then) contemporary US racial morés. IMO this theme gets lost in the procession of unsympathetic characters (dad's a fascist, mum's a lush, the son's an idiot and the daughter wants to carry out her Freudian fantasies), but admittedly my memories of the book aren't that fond because it was the only thing I could find to read during a particularly damp holiday in Anglesey.

[Hutch]

Once you finish with Heinlein, Tami, (probably about 2006) would suggest moving onward to Larry Niven (The Mote in God's Eye, anything to do with his Known Space series) and Poul Anderson. That should keep you busy until the next decade.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by BillyTK
I'd recommend reading The Moon is a Harsh Mistress back-to-back with Ken MacLeod's The Stone Canal for complementary readings of the whole "Libertarians in Space" thing.

Stay away from The Number of the Beast and Friday; Heinlein really doesn't know how to write women characters—they're either good little housewifes or men with boobs—and these two books really highlight his failings.



Starship Troopers? Farnham's Freehold?

:p ;) :D

LOL, OK, when he's not recovering from brain surgery or not pushing his political ideas. ;)

[gnome]

Originally posted by BillyTK
Stay away from The Number of the Beast and Friday; Heinlein really doesn't know how to write women characters--they're either good little housewifes or men with boobs--and these two books really highlight his failings.

I'll always find a bit of guilty pleasure in reading "Friday" actually. While I agree that Heinlein's women are nothing at all like real women, Friday had an excuse (being an Artificial Person). Written apparently to appeal to the fantasies of a geeky teenage male, that was perfect for me, as I was a geeky teenage male when I first read it.

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by BillyTK
Stay away from The Number of the Beast and Friday; Heinlein really doesn't know how to write women characters—they're either good little housewifes or men with boobs—and these two books really highlight his failings.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who didn't like Friday. It seemed more like teenage boy whacking material than real science fiction.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Dragonrock


I'm glad I'm not the only one who didn't like Friday. It seemed more like teenage boy whacking material than real science fiction.

Yeah, Friday bit it. Except for the cover.

Avoid "The Number of the Beast" at all costs. It was written when he was very very ill and it shows it.

Heinlein definitely had unusual attitudes towards women. Not hostile in any way that I can see; it's clear to me that he loved women, especially strong women.

Maybe too much. Many of his later works seem to end up with the main characters having a cross-time orgy with all their relatives and descendants and best friends who've had sex changes. He definitely had some sexual peculiarities and rather a hangup about incest, I think.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Sundog


Yeah, Friday bit it. Except for the cover.

Avoid "The Number of the Beast" at all costs. It was written when he was very very ill and it shows it.

Heinlein definitely had unusual attitudes towards women. Not hostile in any way that I can see; it's clear to me that he loved women, especially strong women.

Maybe too much. Many of his later works seem to end up with the main characters having a cross-time orgy with all their relatives and descendants and best friends who've had sex changes. He definitely had some sexual peculiarities and rather a hangup about incest, I think. Yeah, the whole Lazarus Long having sex with Lapis and Lazuli, his teenage female clone twins, was just weird.

[Piscivore]

I recently finished The Illuminatus Trilogy, and I confess I liked it. It is certainly not for everyone (especially not everyone here ;), but it was a trip to read.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
Yeah, the whole Lazarus Long having sex with Lapis and Lazuli, his teenage female clone twins, was just weird.
More weird than LL travelling back in time and getting Oedipal with his mum? ;) :D

Overall, I guess there's a thin line between challenging contemporary sexual values and writing jazz fodder...

Btw, just to show I'm not totally against Heinlein, I'd like to recommend Tunnel in the Sky which, even though it's one of his children's stories (maybe because it's one of his children's stories, and therefore lacking in icky sex and barbie-doll women) imo is a great novel with sympathetic characters and an engrossing plot, which (again imo) deals with Heinlein's themes in a more credible way than many of his other novels. Except for maybe The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, because it's got that bunch of subversive stuff about terrorism in it, which, although it's supposed to be a retelling of the American War of Independence, still resonates today.

[headscratcher4]

Always liked: The Door into Summer...

A fun time-travel novel....

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
Yeah, the whole Lazarus Long having sex with Lapis and Lazuli, his teenage female clone twins, was just weird.

Not just having sex, but doing it specifically so that they would both be pregnant with his children. (I'm not really sure if "his" is the correct pronoun, at this point the family tree just kind of implodes.) By the time that book stopped, it had become 'how many women/men/relatives/farm animals/inanimate objects can Lazarus have sex with. I remember thinking something like, "Okay, I get it, you had anal sex with your mother, now lets get back to blowing up things." Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the book, the sub-stories and sub-plots were very interesting and well told, I just got tired of the graphic descriptions of sex that did little to advance the plot.

[Skeptic]

Many of his later works seem to end up with the main characters having a cross-time orgy with all their relatives and descendants and best friends who've had sex changes.

You're thinking, of course, of "All You Zombies". It's overappreciated as a "classic" of time travel short stories. Actually it's pretty darn obvious from the start.

This is surprising, considering it was Heinlein himself who wrote what truly is the best time travel short story ever, "By His Bootstraps" (found in the collection "The Menace from Earth").

[Skeptic]

Heinlein and Asimov were IMHO quintessinal adolescent boys, who (in their fiction) never grew up. Both have no idea how to write believable female characters, and both have no idea how to write about sex; both are fascinated with techonology and its implications, and do their best writing considering the unintended consequences of technological and scientific advancement.

The difference between the two is that Asimov KNEW he had no talent for writing about women and sex, and for the most part his novels and stories avoid them (Susan Calvin, Asimov's "robot psychologist", is hardly a typical woman!). Heinlein never knew, and (in his later work) kept writing one turgid sex scene after another, marring what otherwise was often a decent--and sometimes really good--sci-fi adventure story.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Skeptic


This is surprising, considering it was Heinlein himself who wrote what truly is the best time travel short story ever, "By His Bootstraps" (found in the collection "The Menace from Earth"). [/B]

Best ever?? Tried reading it a few weeks ago. Couldn't be bothered finishing it. It was cr@p. Won't be trying any more Heinlein.

Now the time travel story "The anubis gates" by Tim powers is truly excellent. It's got "woo woo" stuff in as well :D (apart from the backwards time travel that is ;)). I recommend people read that :)

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Many of his later works seem to end up with the main characters having a cross-time orgy with all their relatives and descendants and best friends who've had sex changes.

You're thinking, of course, of "All You Zombies". It's overappreciated as a "classic" of time travel short stories. Actually it's pretty darn obvious from the start.

This is surprising, considering it was Heinlein himself who wrote what truly is the best time travel short story ever, "By His Bootstraps" (found in the collection "The Menace from Earth").

Actually I wasn't, I was thinking of some of the very late stuff where they're screwing everything but the cat (good thing he could walk through walls), but by golly, you're right. I had forgotten about that one. It's definitely a classic though IMHO, but yes, rather obvious early on.

But I agree about "By His Bootstraps" which I read under his pen-name Anson McDonald when I was a kid. Classic story.

My vote for clumsiest SF sex, though, has to go to Larry Niven, hands down.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Sundog

Actually I wasn't, I was thinking of some of the very late stuff where they're screwing everything but the cat (good thing he could walk through walls), but by golly, you're right. I had forgotten about that one. It's definitely a classic though IMHO, but yes, rather obvious early on.


The description fits with some of his mid-career stuff too. To Sail Beyond the Sunset comes to mind.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mycroft


The description fits with some of his mid-career stuff too. To Sail Beyond the Sunset comes to mind.

Oh, yikes, you're right. What awful drivel. But that was quite late in his career, I believe, in fact, one of his very last books, or am I wrong?

Another awful one: I Will Fear No Evil.

BUT.

Look what Heinlein predicted in that book alone:

Body paint as clothing.
Water beds (wasn't that the book they first showed up in?)
The acceptance of alternate sexual orientations and lifestyles.
A hauntingly familiar picture of future bohemian society.
Parts of cities simply left to rot in lawlessness (the Abandoned Areas). This one hasn't come true yet but it's so reasonable a development that it still scares me.

So even when he's bad, he's usually still worth reading. But that one is pretty bad.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Sundog
Oh, yikes, you're right. What awful drivel. But that was quite late in his career, I believe, in fact, one of his very last books, or am I wrong?


I have a copy of it somewhere in the house, but I'm too lazy to look for it. I think it's from the 70's?

I recently found a short story of his written back in the 50's in a collection of children's literature. It was about a family who visited the lunar colony and took a moonwalk. The whole story was about the difference in attitude between people who are "civilized" and the people who have the "pioneer spirit" required to survive in that hostile environment. The story was quite good, much better than his later work. I stopped reading him after Friday.

[Skeptic]

"To Sail Beyound Sunset" is Heinlein's last novel; it was published posthumously, and, as one reviewer said, "perhaps it would be kinder to say no more".

One thing, though: Heinlein is often described by some people as a "nazi" or a "fascist". Not true in both cases. He was an officer in the navy during WWII, hated nazies with a vengence, and was a good friend of Isaac Asimov, who was, of course, jewish. They had big disagreements over politics, but that's another story.

By the way, yes, I read "The Cat who Walks Through Walls". It starts out as an adventure story, and a decent one at that. Then disintigrates into a time-travel sex orgy, out of the friggin' blue, in the middle of the book--apparently just so Heinlein could have Lazarus Long particiapte in an orgy, yet again.

LL simply appears, deus ex machina, and takes the protagonist with him into a time-traveling alternative world where (among other things) orgies occur frequently. You read that and go, "huh????????????????".

That's what drives me crazy with Heinlein's later work. He still could write at least competently (as the first half of the novel attests) but just HAD to put sex and Lazarus Long into everything he wrote, if he had to do it with a two-by-four.

[Skeptic]

I recently found a short story of his written back in the 50's in a collection of children's literature.

I forget the name of the story, but I believe it's one where the tourist family's little kid gets lost during the moonwalk, and--as often in Heinlein's (and Asimov's) juveniles--the teenage older son of the family is pivotal in finding him, together with the rough-and-tough native "lunars", showing that (unlike their father and mother) the young kid has "what it takes".

Sounds corny when you say it like that, but it's actually a pretty good story, at least for its intended age group.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Skeptic

That's what drives me crazy with Heinlein's later work. He still could write at least competently (as the first half of the novel attests) but just HAD to put sex and Lazarus Long into everything he wrote, if he had to do it with a two-by-four.

Yeah. My thoughts exactly, and I'm certainly no prude by quite a long shot.

I'll bet Ginny could tell some tales if she chose.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Skeptic
I recently found a short story of his written back in the 50's in a collection of children's literature.

I forget the name of the story, but I believe it's one where the tourist family's little kid gets lost during the moonwalk, and--as often in Heinlein's (and Asimov's) juveniles--the teenage older son of the family is pivotal in finding him, together with the rough-and-tough native "lunars", showing that (unlike their father and mother) the young kid has "what it takes".

Sounds corny when you say it like that, but it's actually a pretty good story, at least for its intended age group.

"The Black Pits of Luna" I believe. And the one about the colonist who long for Earth until they get here and then suddenly want the moon again after being treated badly is "It's Great to be Back!"

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Piscivore
I recently finished The Illuminatus Trilogy, and I confess I liked it. It is certainly not for everyone (especially not everyone here ;), but it was a trip to read.

That series ranks among my favorites.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by Skeptic
The difference between the two is that Asimov KNEW he had no talent for writing about women and sex, and for the most part his novels and stories avoid them (Susan Calvin, Asimov's "robot psychologist", is hardly a typical woman!). Heinlein never knew, and (in his later work) kept writing one turgid sex scene after another, marring what otherwise was often a decent--and sometimes really good--sci-fi adventure story.

What he said :-)

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by tamiO

What should I read next? [/B]

The end of eternity by Asimov is truly excellent as well. No-one else seems to like that particular book though apart from me :D

Or pebble in the sky by Asimov. First read that when I was 11 but couldn't understand much of it! LMAO!! :D

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Or pebble in the sky by Asimov. First read that when I was 11 but couldn't understand much of it! LMAO!! :D

I read "Stranger in a Strange Land" at 14 and most of it went straight over my head.

I gotta give a shout out to "Glory Road". Great book. Lots of cool sword fighting.

Ian, you should read those two. I think they'd be more up your alley.

[gnome]

Originally posted by Skeptic

The difference between the two is that Asimov KNEW he had no talent for writing about women and sex, and for the most part his novels and stories avoid them (Susan Calvin, Asimov's "robot psychologist", is hardly a typical woman!). Heinlein never knew, and (in his later work) kept writing one turgid sex scene after another, marring what otherwise was often a decent--and sometimes really good--sci-fi adventure story.

I believe Asimov got a better handle on it in his later novels. An interesting example is the evolution of Gladia in his Robot novels.

[Floyt]

Originally posted by Sundog


My vote for clumsiest SF sex, though, has to go to Larry Niven, hands down.

Howzat? Can you give some pointers? Honestly, I have a hard time coming up with any Niven sex scenes off the top of my head (a wee bit o' rishatra here and there :) ). On the whole, I seem to remember Known Space as a pretty asexual place.
And Niven can do decent love stories - even if there are only a few. "Inconstant Moon" - surprisingly subtle considering it has the sun going nova.

[Darat]

A terrible Heinlein book, Job: A Comedy of Justice. Urggh!

I'm a huge science fiction fan and read all of his work however unlike many, many science fiction fans I've always held a minority view of Heinlein e.g. he wasn't very good.

Sure he wrote one or two excellent short stories, a few good stories and plenty (for their time) adequate juvenile novels but taken as a whole his output was pedestrian, very predictable and only competent.

Just compare Heinlein to some of his contemporaries and his deficiencies soon become apparent.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Skeptic
One thing, though: Heinlein is often described by some people as a "nazi" or a "fascist". Not true in both cases. He was an officer in the navy during WWII, hated nazies with a vengence, and was a good friend of Isaac Asimov, who was, of course, jewish. They had big disagreements over politics, but that's another story. It's his.. erm, enthusiasm for the... benefits of military service which often attracts the fascist tag, as outlined in Starship Troopers, for instance—compare and contrast with Joe Haldeman's The Forever War—and the authoritarian family structures he seems fond of, which is at it's most explicit in Farnhams Freehold, but is a common theme throughout a number of his books. I don't see the bearing of his friendship with Asimov on this.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Floyt


Howzat? Can you give some pointers? Honestly, I have a hard time coming up with any Niven sex scenes off the top of my head (a wee bit o' rishatra here and there :) ). On the whole, I seem to remember Known Space as a pretty asexual place.
And Niven can do decent love stories - even if there are only a few. "Inconstant Moon" - surprisingly subtle considering it has the sun going nova.


Yes, I liked that one too, and I'm a huge Niven fan, or was 20 years ago.

Does the word "rishathra" ring a bell?

[Floyt]

Originally posted by Sundog

Does the word "rishathra" ring a bell?

Sure it does :)
OK, in reviewing I notice that there is rather more of it than I remembered. Didn't think it particularly clumsy, though.

Oh, how to do a stylish orgy-type thing: "Blue Mars", by K.S. Robinson. Lively people, these martians! :D

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Floyt


Sure it does :)
OK, in reviewing I notice that there is rather more of it than I remembered. Didn't think it particularly clumsy, though.

Oh, how to do a stylish orgy-type thing: "Blue Mars", by K.S. Robinson. Lively people, these martians! :D

I suppose I could never get past the unwelcome discovery that aliens had human-compatible sexual organs.

[tamiO]

Okay, I have just finished the book. I loved the ending. I felt as if some of the wrap-up didn't add up, but I haven't gone back to double check. I am sure Heinlein didn't mess up, but you never know.

I had read "Ringworld" by David Niven prior to this book. My husband has thrust Farmer In the Sky" at me as my next read, but I will sneak in some of the ones recommended here by you guys. ;)

[Sundog]

(Umm, I think you mean Larry Niven. :D )

Glad you enjoyed him. What others have said is true: he was a genius who also put out a lot of dreck. But the good stuff is very good indeed. The older, the better.

One brilliant touch I just remembered from "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is Heinlein realizing just how the female body would react to lower gravity and predicting the "moon suit" fashion to take advantage of it. A nice touch. Maybe men are most equipped to appreciate the poetry of this description.

[Skeptic]

Howzat? Can you give some pointers? Honestly, I have a hard time coming up with any Niven sex scenes off the top of my head (a wee bit o' rishatra here and there :)

I, too, was thinking of rishatra--essentially, ritual sex between humanoids of two different species as a way to seal a contract, popular in Niven's Ringworld novels--but I thought that sort of sex was supposed to be clumsy, hence the not-too-hot descriptions.

[Skeptic]

It's his.. erm, enthusiasm for the... benefits of military service which often attracts the fascist tag,

Yes, but enthusiasm for military service, even if unrealistic, isn't necessarily fascism.

Heinlein was really a frsutrated would-be Admiral; he had to retire from the Navy after graduating from Annapolis due to illness.

I don't see the bearing of his friendship with Asimov on this.

Well, not to fascism er se, but certainly to the charge that he was an antisemite or Nazi.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Sundog
(Umm, I think you mean Larry Niven. :D )



Ooops. I do that every time. :o

[Evolver]

Originally posted by Skeptic

By the way, yes, I read "The Cat who Walks Through Walls". It starts out as an adventure story, and a decent one at that. Then disintigrates into a time-travel sex orgy, out of the friggin' blue, in the middle of the book--apparently just so Heinlein could have Lazarus Long particiapte in an orgy, yet again.

LL simply appears, deus ex machina, and takes the protagonist with him into a time-traveling alternative world where (among other things) orgies occur frequently. You read that and go, "huh????????????????".

That's what drives me crazy with Heinlein's later work. He still could write at least competently (as the first half of the novel attests) but just HAD to put sex and Lazarus Long into everything he wrote, if he had to do it with a two-by-four.

Thank you.
That book pi$$ed me off royally! After that I couldn't bring myself to read any more Heinlein.
And to make matters worse, any time I've seen it mentioned in SF publications, it's mentioned favorably!

[Floyt]

Originally posted by Sundog


I suppose I could never get past the unwelcome discovery that aliens had human-compatible sexual organs.

Not having batted an eye about Teela "Heritable Cliffhanger Solvent" Brown, I swallowed them minor anatomical shortcuts hook, line and sinker...

(Anyway, I have noticed that apart from Le Guin, SF writers don't seem to bother much anymore about explaining biological convergences in their universe with a Galactic Seeding Hypothesis etc. That's fine by me, I just think it's funny how the compulsion to rationalize this comes in surges, like a fashion!)

[Byzantine Magpie]

May I recommend a couple of favourites of mine:

- The Crucible of Time, John Brunner. I haven't read any of Brunner's other books, but I know a bit about them. This is a wonderful heartwarming story of aliens learning about their unpromising place in the universe, and learning to do something about it, all the while fighting off lesser disasters on the way.

- Emprise, Empery and Enigma, a trilogy by Michael Kube-McDowell. Set in the near future of Earth after an industrial collapse, a despised scientist discovers signals coming from space. In the second book, the source of signals is discovered and the explanation gradually uncovered. In the third book, the consequences of that explanation are played out.

- Time Future and Time Past, by Maxine McArthur. The first is a prize winning novel, set on a human controlled space station under siege, in a universe where humans are one of the lesser races. The second takes the protagonist to the Earth of her past, and our near future, for first contact.

[a_unique_person]

Avoid - Anything by Jerry Pournelle. What a simplistic wacko. "Lucifers Hammer" ( I think), one idiotic strawman about living in an ice age because the greenies have taken over and won't let people burn fossil fuels to warm the earth up with a man made greenhouse effect. Favourite plot device - science fiction writers saving the world.

For something a bit different - Dorris Lessing. I found her 'science fiction' a little uneven, but her first book 'Shikasta' was rivetting, brilliant, original, different, and even well written.

Something else a little different, but low brow. Books, by Jack Vance. His saving attribute was his ability as a wordsmith, something seriously lacking in most sci fi writers, for whom words are something to be churned out as a means of telling a story.

A final odd ball, Kurt Vonnegut. He writes a lot more than just sci-fi, but doesn't mind the odd trip down that path. Slaughterhouse 5 being a good example. The Battle of the Bulge meets alien kidnappers.

[Wudang]

Lucifers Hammer is Niven and Pournelle and concerns a comet hitting earth. Footfall has SF writers acting as adviser on alien contact and is quite funny in its p-take of some writers, including themselves I believe. Can't think of the ice age one. Niven is quite anti-greeny, anti-PC - High Justice et al.
Pournelle's own stuff like Mercenary is quite militarist right-wing stuff. It's not so bad when mellowed by Niven. Oath of Fealty for instance has a rather Pournelle-ish theme. Legacy Of Heorot a rather P-ish character and is a very good book apart from the lead character. Not that characters are Niven's strong point.
For good writing some current writers like Michael Marshall Smith (Only Forward, in particular). M John Harrison is back with Light, Neil Gaiman's American Gods etc.
For those more of a fantasy bent Robin Hobb's Assassin trilogy and its 2 follow-ons, the liveship and fool trilogies are extremely good - unusally well-drawn characters for the genre.

[Chaos]

I think the ice age novel is "Fallen Angels". And the ones who save the day there are SF/Fantasy fans.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Avoid - Anything by Jerry Pournelle. What a simplistic wacko. "Lucifers Hammer" ( I think), one idiotic strawman about living in an ice age because the greenies...

Er... you DO realize "Lucifer's Hammer" is fiction, and isn't actually making an argument about the real world, don't you? What you're describing is known as a "plot device", not a "strawman argument".

[Hexxenhammer]

Fallen Angels is the ice age one, and it is crap. Yes, it's cool that sci-fi/fantasy geeks are heroes, and that some of the action takes place in Fargo (in my home state, which is under a glacier), but it's half-assed idea that global warming caused by pollution was the only thing staving off an ice age was idiotic. And the environmentalists were fascists. Funny for satire maybe, but not a serious novel.

[rastamonte]

My favorite Heinlein is "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", which I would recommend to anyone. I liked it so much that I read a bunch of other crap written by Heinlein before I finally gave up on him.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic


Er... you DO realize "Lucifer's Hammer" is fiction, and isn't actually making an argument about the real world, don't you? What you're describing is known as a "plot device", not a "strawman argument".

I know it's fiction, you know it's fiction, Pournelle is just anti-GW. go to his website to see just how much of a screwed up individual he is. He has defended such frauds as Velikovsky, and attacked Sagan for humiliating the fraud in a public debate.

[Cleopatra]

Has any of you read anything of Roger Zelazny?

[Wudang]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Has any of you read anything of Roger Zelazny?

Oh yes indeedy - best close of an SF novel is Lord of Light, best opener Isle of the Dead. His novella A Rose for Ecclesiastes is a classic.

[Cleopatra]

I am currently reading " This Immortal" in which a great part of the plot takes place in Greece!! But still it's Heinlein that has the sparkle!

What about Ursula Le Guin?

Do I sound like an old-fashioned European now or what? :)

[rastamonte]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
What about Ursula Le Guin?


I really enjoyed the Earthsea Trilogy when I was a teenager.

[wildflower1]

This is a really guilty pleasure: "The Void Captain's Tale" by Norman Spinrad.

[Skeptic]

What about Ursula Le Guin?

"The Left Hand of Darkness" is one of the best SF novels ever.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by rastamonte
My favorite Heinlein is "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", which I would recommend to anyone. I liked it so much that I read a bunch of other crap written by Heinlein before I finally gave up on him.

I liked the computer in that one.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mycroft


I liked the computer in that one.

Well, you should, considering. :D

[rastamonte]

Originally posted by Sundog


Well, you should, considering. :D :wink:

[Mark]

Originally posted by rastamonte


I really enjoyed the Earthsea Trilogy when I was a teenager.

Her latest additions to the series are quite good as well.

I highly recommend Heinlein's "Job: a Comedy of Justice." Not only is it highly entertaining, it is a great look at the absurdities and contradictions in religious mythology.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Skeptic
What about Ursula Le Guin?

"The Left Hand of Darkness" is one of the best SF novels ever. I have read very few sf novels but I am impressed Skeptic by the variety of the books you have read. It seems that you have covered everything!

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I am currently reading " This Immortal" in which a great part of the plot takes place in Greece!! But still it's Heinlein that has the sparkle!

What about Ursula Le Guin?

Do I sound like an old-fashioned European now or what? :)

I love Ursula Le Guin.

Left Hand of Darkness is wonderful, Lathe of Heaven isn't too bad either. Great short stories.

[Darat]

Originally posted by headscratcher4


I love Ursula Le Guin.

Left Hand of Darkness is wonderful, Lathe of Heaven isn't too bad either. Great short stories.

And for anyone who likes kids books about wizards learning magic at a magical school... Wizard of Earthsea, the original trilogy are fantastic for kids and her later editions to the story are superb if not quite for the kiddies.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally posted by headscratcher4


I love Ursula Le Guin.

Left Hand of Darkness is wonderful, Lathe of Heaven isn't too bad either. Great short stories.

In addition to "Left Hand of Darkness" I enjoyed "The Dispossessed"... though I am afraid I am not a fan of the EarthSea stories, nor of the latest one of that universe "The Telling".

My first boyfriend gave me "Stanger in a Strange Land" to read (he had nicknamed himself Cliff Long, a cousin to LL)... and then my hubby has read lots of Heinlein, including re-reading "Friday" just recently. That is the problem with majoring in engineering, you tend to date... and eventually marry another engineer (College of Engineering... for women, the odds are good, but the goods are odd).

I actually enjoyed some of the Niven/Pournelle collaborations... "Lucifer's Hammer" was interesting in kind of showing what happens with a major disaster, and "Footfall" deals with some of the same issues (and Pournelle gets to have a nuclear blast destroy his old hometown) -- and I liked "Inferno"... the rest is just not much to my liking. I read the first two when I was on "Earth is destroyed" kick... which included reading "The Postman" by David Brin (which I remember enjoying, though I can't remember why).

Though I find that I favor Frederick Pohl. I like his short stories... and I enjoyed "When the Martians Came".

I also enjoyed "Way Station" by Clifford Simak

Then there are exactly two book I enjoyed by Vonda McIntyre: "Dreamsnake" (another post-apocalypse saga) and "The Moon and the Sun" (the latter getting into historical romance/fantasy/sci-fi).

Sorry, I am sitting in front of a 11 ft. long bookcase wall of mostly science fiction... most of it dear hubby's (and some of it mine). We've been going through trying to find things that 13 and 15 year old sons would enjoy reading (and not warp their minds), so we have been bouncing off what we remember from each tome.

[kedo1981]

Whenever I’m browsing the SF section of the library and I see a kid about 11 or 12 looking for a book, I grab “Ring world or The Final Encyclopedia” and hand it to them; shack my head yes; don’t say a word to em; walk away.


I get kicked out of more libraries that way

[Wudang]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I am currently reading " This Immortal" in which a great part of the plot takes place in Greece!! But still it's Heinlein that has the sparkle!

What about Ursula Le Guin?

Do I sound like an old-fashioned European now or what? :)

Pardon the late reply, your majesty. 2 weeks near Cardamena on Kos. In "creatures of light and darkness" the main characters are Osiris, Horus, Anubis et al.
I really enjoyed some of the books I took on holiday. Please read "The light age" by Iain MacLeod, it's kind of the "anubis gate" meets Willis' "doomsday book".
Let me also recommend Paul Cornell's "British Summertime" - a psychic who can find chipshops meets a time-travelling Dan Dare and his bodyless head-only navigator? What's not to like?
Neal Asher's "Line of Polity" - harder SF. If you like Morgan's Shifted Carbon you'll like this.
Zindell's Lighstone. I loved Neverness and thought the Broken God was a book to be thrown with great force. Reads like a conscious expirement after he read the Wheen of Time et al.
Excuse back-up keyboards shift key problem.

[rserocki]

I enjoyed Gene Wolfe's "Urth of the New Sun" series. It's written in first person perspective by someone with perfect memory and the subject matter swings between fantasy and science fiction in an interesting way, at least it was to me. The first book in the series is _Shadow of the Torturer_ but this has been re-released with the second book in the series under one cover as _Shadow & Claw_ with some subtitles.