Massachusetts town approves $20 fine for swearing in public

[OnlyTellsTruths]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/12/12178224-massachusetts-town-approves-20-fine-for-swearing-in-public

As far as I can tell they don't have a list, it is just "I know it when I hear it" I'm assuming.

I also noticed, out of 20,000+ residents, only 233 voted on the fine. :D

[lionking]

**** them. ;)

[timhau]

Kind of reminds me of this scene from Demolition Man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj9UZN6X54o) (Warning! NSFW! Will be expensive in Massachusetts!)

[Darat]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/12/12178224-massachusetts-town-approves-20-fine-for-swearing-in-public

As far as I can tell they don't have a list, it is just "I know it when I hear it" I'm assuming.

I also noticed, out of 20,000+ residents, only 233 voted on the fine. :D

Should be interesting to see what words they do end up prosecuting for.

Interesting court case about swearing at the police in the UK: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8902770/Swearing-at-police-is-not-a-crime-judge-rules.html

[timhau]

Well, what do you expect from Mr. Bean.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Officials insist the proposal was not intended to censor casual or private conversations, but instead to crack down on loud, profanity-laden language used by teens and other young people in the downtown area and public parks.

Damned kids! Wait...

[lionking]

Should be interesting to see what words they do end up prosecuting for.

Interesting court case about swearing at the police in the UK: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8902770/Swearing-at-police-is-not-a-crime-judge-rules.html

There was a case around 20 years ago when a magistrate in Australia found the F word to be non offensive when directed at police.

When i worked for Victoria Police around that time though (as HR Manager), I did mention to a uniformed mate of mine that the market just next door to HQ was selling t-shirts saying "Don't Mind Me I'm Just a Dumb ****". I thought it was amusing. He went there and told them to take the t-shirts down. No other action though.

Edited, breach of rule 10; do not mask content in an attempt to by-pass the auto-censor.

[Meridian]

Interesting court case about swearing at the police in the UK: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8902770/Swearing-at-police-is-not-a-crime-judge-rules.html

The end of that article is very informative: The directive states: “The courts do not accept that police officers are caused harassment, alarm or distress by words such as ----, ----, -------, or ------.”

[Careyp74]

I advocate free speech, and the protection of it. I also do not want my child exposed to such scenes like the Youtube video I watched the other day where the young woman was cursing up a storm over something or other, it was not apparent why. The video shows a mother telling the woman to knock off the profanity and it caused even more of a stir.

Where is the line that can be drawn between free speech and profanity?

[Xulld]

Where is the line that can be drawn between free speech and profanity? Its a social issue, which should have a social fix. Ridicule. Wit.

Force is not the answer to most social issues.

What would they do if I swore, and then refused to pay the fine? Chances are they would jail me, and then id file a civil rights violation and make big money off of the city.

[Careyp74]

Its a social issue, which should have a social fix. Ridicule. Wit.

Force is not the answer to most social issues.

What would they do if I swore, and then refused to pay the fine? Chances are they would jail me, and then id file a civil rights violation and make big money off of the city.

Couldn't reconcile what I believed with your statement, until I thought "wait, what is the importance of my kids not hearing words. WORDS. I don't care if he hears dog poop, but the s word?"

It IS a social issue. In fact, any public display that I do not want my kid to pick up is a good example for him of how not to act.

[I Ratant]

It's the new street talk.
Listening to (as if anyone has a choice) to cell-phone conversations now is to cringe for!
Alla them dirty words are flang around, and loudly.
I wonder if Massachusetts is going to go after those people that buy propane gas on the Sabbath, as gathering firewood has gone out of style?
Oh, for the good old days of Increase and Cotton Mather!
Maybe Mullah Omar can give them some handy pointers on what is anathema?

[sadhatter]

I advocate free speech, and the protection of it. I also do not want my child exposed to such scenes like the Youtube video I watched the other day where the young woman was cursing up a storm over something or other, it was not apparent why. The video shows a mother telling the woman to knock off the profanity and it caused even more of a stir.

Where is the line that can be drawn between free speech and profanity?

Well your first step is in showing the profanity itself causes some kind of harm. The words only cause even emotional harm when used in a very specific way at a very specific time, otherwise its just people who "Don't want to hear those words" raising a stink over something that literally has no effect on them. I don't want to see fat people in tight pants, but i am not going to go around designing laws to stop it.

Existing harassment laws are fine for any abuses of the verbal art of swearing, going any further is simply absurd, these words cause no harm unless abused, but that is not a language issue, that is a harassment issue, and beyond that if one wants to make someone feel bad, it is just as easy to do sans swearing.

So really, the first step is to simply give up this hatred of swearing. The only thing causing distress is that you give power to these words, the problem isn't with the words, it is with the power people give the words. Realize they can't hurt you, and the problem is gone.

[ZirconBlue]

I advocate free speech, and the protection of it. I also do not want my child exposed to such scenes like the Youtube video I watched the other day where the young woman was cursing up a storm over something or other, it was not apparent why. The video shows a mother telling the woman to knock off the profanity and it caused even more of a stir.

Where is the line that can be drawn between free speech and profanity?

There is no such line. If you don't like the language you are hearing, and requests to stop are not honored, you should either remove yourself or attempt to get the other person removed via the appropriate authorities, where applicable.

[Polaris]

I cheerfully request that the fine moral individuals who proposed and voted for this measure assume a position similar to a cat being scratched near the base of its spine, and using a rubber mallet forcefully insert a fleshy, prickly species of flora common to the American southwest into their own upended regions.

[NoahFence]

Funny thing is they shot down building a casino in Middleboro. Imagine the windfall if you just station a few cops to mosey up and down the aisles of the slot machines....

[OnlyTellsTruths]

I wonder if it is $20 per word, or if you can get away with a whole sentence loaded with profanities for that $20.

[WildCat]

It's blatantly unconstitutional, but who wants to go through the hassle challenging it over a $20 fine?

[Sam.I.Am]

Meh. I can swear like a sailor (I was professionally trained to do so :D and could probably melt your ears off if I wanted to using terms that you've never thought of, much less heard). Walking down the street isn't one of them whether it's to someone next to you or on a cell phone. Laws like this are just a knee jerk response to other peoples bad manners. I wouldn't agree to it in my community,and I do hear a lot of (mostly younger kids, but some adults) people loudly swearing for no good reason such as "Look at that {s-word}" and so on. Loud enough to hear it clearly 30 or 40 feet away. Kids I expect it from only because it's a forbidden fruit and so it's "Cool" to do it but for adults I think that most of the time it's completely unnecessary.

Don't get me wrong though. There are times and places where swearing is at least not a problem and sometimes it is entirely appropriate to use verbosely.
Edited for rule 10. Do not try to circumvent the autocensor, even if it ruins your story.

[Stellafane]

Oh my ******* ******* -- I was born* in this ******* town!!!


*Absolutely ******* true!!

[I Ratant]

Sweet Thang was admonished by a concerned mom when ST was talking on the phone, using gutter language.
Momma didn't want her precious to hear those words.
Wait'll precious comes home from school and asks what some of them mean.:rolleyes:

[Jarlaxle]

Funny thing is they shot down building a casino in Middleboro. Imagine the windfall if you just station a few cops to mosey up and down the aisles of the slot machines....

I recall that was Taunton, not Middleboro.

[COLONEL]

Who decides what a swear is ? If I say hey let me tell you about Jesus Christ and then I say Jesus Christ look at her face, will one be ok and the other get me fined?

[JWideman]

Who decides what a swear is ? If I say hey let me tell you about Jesus Christ and then I say Jesus Christ look at her face, will one be ok and the other get me fined?

Context. And if there's contexts where it's not acceptable to use certain words, doesn't it stand to reason that there are contexts where it IS acceptable?
If you ask me, being in Massachusetts is the proper context.

[OnlyTellsTruths]

Yeah I assume that, as I said earlier, as far as I can tell it will be the old "I know it when I hear it".

In other words, up to the individual police officer's discretion.

Normally after saying "up to the individual police officer's discretion" one would add "and then up to the judge to agree with the officer or not".... but who is going to take a $20 ticket to court?

Unless it really is per word, then a pro (like Sam.I.Am above) could probably rake up a $2,000 ticket in less than a minute!

[Robert2]

Any word at all can be used as a SWEAR WORD. The words commonly used as swearing are taken out of context of their actual mean.
To become LAW there would require a list of words that are banned

[OnlyTellsTruths]

Any word at all can be used as a SWEAR WORD.

Technically I agree. But realistically it is a sliding scale, there are some words that are way less likely to be considered a swear.

(Also, maybe any color can be used as a swear color. Like orange!)


To become LAW there would require a list of words that are banned

Agreed. For this to be fair, there needs to be a list of which words get the $20 fine.

[NewtonTrino]

I can't imagine a prosecutor or judge falling for this one. It's just completely blatantly unconstitutional.

[TragicMonkey]

It's not really the words, it's the animus behind them that make them shocking.

My mother tries not to swear. But she says "sugar!" in a tone with so much venom and anger that makes it so much worse than if she'd gone ahead and said the other word anyway.

And not just her but all the ladies on her side of the family invoke "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!" in a way that would make those personages feel very uncomfortable. It sounds less like an exclamation and more like a hit list.

[Cuddles]

Its a social issue, which should have a social fix. Ridicule. Wit.

2IDTOg4DuCA

I cheerfully request that the fine moral individuals who proposed and voted for this measure assume a position similar to a cat being scratched near the base of its spine, and using a rubber mallet forcefully insert a fleshy, prickly species of flora common to the American southwest into their own upended regions.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but words are just words. You can be as insulting as possible without using a single "bad" word, and you can swear like a sailor while being entirely friendly. It's context and meaning that matters, not the specific words used to convey them.

[Rasmus]

orange

reported.

[Xulld]

Well your first step is in showing the profanity itself causes some kind of harm. The words only cause even emotional harm when used in a very specific way at a very specific time, otherwise its just people who "Don't want to hear those words" raising a stink over something that literally has no effect on them. I don't want to see fat people in tight pants, but i am not going to go around designing laws to stop it.

Existing harassment laws are fine for any abuses of the verbal art of swearing, going any further is simply absurd, these words cause no harm unless abused, but that is not a language issue, that is a harassment issue, and beyond that if one wants to make someone feel bad, it is just as easy to do sans swearing.

So really, the first step is to simply give up this hatred of swearing. The only thing causing distress is that you give power to these words, the problem isn't with the words, it is with the power people give the words. Realize they can't hurt you, and the problem is gone.

Well said.

[Careyp74]

Any word at all can be used as a SWEAR WORD. The words commonly used as swearing are taken out of context of their actual mean.
To become LAW there would require a list of words that are banned

I'm not going to bother looking for the link to a Youtube video of George Carlin, I think we all have it in mind at this point.

I agree to the unconstitutionality of this law. I am just glad that I am neither near Middleboro anymore, nor use the type of words that would get a fine.

[Careyp74]

So really, the first step is to simply give up this hatred of swearing. The only thing causing distress is that you give power to these words, the problem isn't with the words, it is with the power people give the words. Realize they can't hurt you, and the problem is gone.

This is a good idea. It might have also prevented what we see in the Noisy Neighbor thread.

[I Ratant]

It's not really the words, it's the animus behind them that make them shocking.

My mother tries not to swear. But she says "sugar!" in a tone with so much venom and anger that makes it so much worse than if she'd gone ahead and said the other word anyway.

And not just her but all the ladies on her side of the family invoke "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!" in a way that would make those personages feel very uncomfortable. It sounds less like an exclamation and more like a hit list.
.
Mary was in the house, tending the kid, prior to the presentation at the Temple.
Joe was in the shop beating on some furniture, when she heard "JESUS CHRIST!!!!" as hammer met thumb.
Said to herself, she did... "Hey, I like that much better than Irving".
.
My SIL says "pickles" in a moment of frustration.

[Jarlaxle]

My father in law, if frustrated enough, will swear in Russian. My friend swears in German. Would that be illegal? :)

[Xulld]

It's blatantly unconstitutional, but who wants to go through the hassle challenging it over a $20 fine?

I would do it on principle alone, but it wouldn't hurt to sue and recoup costs.

[DGM]

I would do it on principle alone, but it wouldn't hurt to sue and recoup costs.
Just to be clear. It's cool with you if I stand in front of your house or business and use whatever language I choose? Would this also be OK if you're small kids are around?

[ZirconBlue]

Just to be clear. It's cool with you if I stand in front of your house or business and use whatever language I choose? Would this also be OK if you're small kids are around?

Won't someone please think of the children?!

[Careyp74]

Just to be clear. It's cool with you if I stand in front of your house or business and use whatever language I choose? Would this also be OK if you're small kids are around?

Are you just using a talking voice, or yelling at the house in a threatening manner? Are you just saying F off to my kid when he walks by, or making it look like an assault?

[DGM]

Are you just using a talking voice, or yelling at the house in a threatening manner? Are you just saying F off to my kid when he walks by, or making it look like an assault?
Where do we draw the line? I'm just using my freedom of speech.

[COLONEL]

My father in law, if frustrated enough, will swear in Russian. My friend swears in German. Would that be illegal? :) only if the cop that hears it understands the language

[COLONEL]

Where do we draw the line? I'm just using my freedom of speech.
you have a point and this is a form of censor ship. I would love to see what happens when someone decides to fight this in court

[Rasmus]

Where do we draw the line? I'm just using my freedom of speech.

Well, no, not if you are threatening people. But then the problem isn't the swear words anymore:

"Dear Sir, I intend to end your life with this butchering tool" is really not much better than "See this ******* meat-cleaver? I'm gonna ******* ram that into your ******* ****** you ******!" - or do you think "how rude!" is the most appropriate response to the latter?

[DGM]

you have a point and this is a form of censor ship. I would love to see what happens when someone decides to fight this in court
In local papers, this town has made it clear it has no interest in judging how people communicate in private conversation. If you're walking down the street with friends and you're dropping "F-bombs" between each other, your not going to get fined. If you're driving down the road and you flip-off a pedestrian and start-up, that's another story (for the pedestrian too).

They're just trying to make a statement, "Let's clean up the act a bit". I have no problem with this. I think of it as a "swear jar". Maybe people will actually think about how repulsive some peoples view of "public behavior" has become.

[Stellafane]

If I were to guess (and it's a rather informed one, since I am extremely familiar with Middleboro and personally know some of the principals involved, including at least one quoted in the article), I'd say that this is less about developing an enforceable law, and more about trying to curtail the language of certain "townies" who tend to hang around Middleboro Center and whose language and general demeanor may discourage others from shopping there. This might not be all that big an issue in other towns. But Middleboro's downtown district has been economically depressed for decades due to some extraordinarily poor town planning, and merchants are pretty much at their wits' end trying to figure out ways to get people to shop there.

So I think this whole thing may fall more into the category of publicity stunt than anything else: "Look at us, shoppers -- our downtown is so safe and genteel, we even fine people for saying bad words. Come spend your money here!"

In that regard, it's already paid off some dividends, I think. For instance, had anyone other than I ever even heard of Middleboro, MA before now? And even if you violently disagree with this law, doesn't it just want to make you go there and shout "**** off!" or whatever from the nearest street corner? Go ahead...they won't mind, trust me, so long as you check out the local used furniture stores!

[Rasmus]

In local papers, this town has made it clear it has no interest in judging how people communicate in private conversation. If you're walking down the street with friends and you're dropping "F-bombs" between each other, your not going to get fined. If you're driving down the road and you flip-off a pedestrian and start-up, that's another story (for the pedestrian too).

They're just trying to make a statement, "Let's clean up the act a bit". I have no problem with this. I think of it as a "swear jar". Maybe people will actually think about how repulsive some peoples view of "public behavior" has become.

Yeah, I find the view that you should fine people money for essentially just talking to be repulsive indeed.

And, yes, it is exactly like a swear jar - and now guess what my opinion of those is ...

[DGM]

Well, no, not if you are threatening people. But then the problem isn't the swear words anymore:

"Dear Sir, I intend to end your life with this butchering tool" is really not much better than "See this ******* meat-cleaver? I'm gonna ******* ram that into your ******* ****** you ******!" - or do you think "how rude!" is the most appropriate response to the latter?
I agree. The point I'm making is, Careyp74 said he/she would fight this fine just for principle and possibly sue. Is it cool for me to swear in front of his/her kids?

This town is not looking to step on people rights, they just want people to clean up their act. I see nothing wrong with that.

[Cainkane1]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/12/12178224-massachusetts-town-approves-20-fine-for-swearing-in-public

As far as I can tell they don't have a list, it is just "I know it when I hear it" I'm assuming.

I also noticed, out of 20,000+ residents, only 233 voted on the fine. :D
I'd go bankrupt in that town.

[DGM]

Yeah, I find the view that you should fine people money for essentially just talking to be repulsive indeed.

And, yes, it is exactly like a swear jar - and now guess what my opinion of those is ...
Would you like to hear my views on rap music?

:)

[I Ratant]

Would you like to hear my views on rap music crap?

:)
.
Slight spelling error there.

[sadhatter]

I'd go bankrupt in that town.

If someone wants to really make a point, they need to video tape themselves racking up a few million in charges. It would be even better if this person instead of just swearing 50,000 times, worked it into something that is expressing insightful, or interesting thoughts.

Sometimes i think i should be a PR guy. Get an old vet of some war to do this, then obviously draw a tad of attention to it, and i guarantee the law would be stricken rather quickly.

This law was written by the same folks who have a "Swearing is the crutch of the mentally incompetent " attitude, which is to say folks that simply don't like swearing and need to find a reason to justify it.

A good way to put it, to show the utility of swearing, is as follows.

I have made love, i have had sex, and i have ******. All three are similar yet separate things, the same way baseball, football and hockey are all sports. And stating that i have ****** , should have no more or less inherent offense than saying i made love.

[I Ratant]

If someone wants to really make a point, they need to video tape themselves racking up a few million in charges. It would be even better if this person instead of just swearing 50,000 times, worked it into something that is expressing insightful, or interesting thoughts.

Sometimes i think i should be a PR guy. Get an old vet of some war to do this, then obviously draw a tad of attention to it, and i guarantee the law would be stricken rather quickly.

This law was written by the same folks who have a "Swearing is the crutch of the mentally incompetent " attitude, which is to say folks that simply don't like swearing and need to find a reason to justify it.

A good way to put it, to show the utility of swearing, is as follows.

I have made love, i have had sex, and i have ******. All three are similar yet separate things, the same way baseball, football and hockey are all sports. And stating that i have ****** , should have no more or less inherent offense than saying i made love.
.
I hear disgusting crap all the time from the boomboxes in the cars cruising the Mall.
And some people know the words themselves.
"Momma's got a squeeze box pales" pales in comparison!
Should be easy to do this... :)

[NobbyNobbs]

This law is easy to get overturned if there were a sufficiently large group of the people who want to do so. Just break the law, then contest the charges. The officer is highly unlikely to show up for something like this, the charges get dropped, and you're free to go do it again. The town officials will quickly realize the cost to the town doesn't begin to be covered by a lousy $20.

Who decides what a swear is ? If I say hey let me tell you about Jesus Christ and then I say Jesus Christ look at her face, will one be ok and the other get me fined?


Absolutely. I would definitely want you fined if you tried to tell me about Jesus Christ.

[ZirconBlue]

Where do we draw the line?

Always err on the side of free speech. If the person is being threatening or disruptively loud, then that is probably already covered by other laws (disturbing the peace, laws against verbal threats, etc). There's no need to enact a new law against using certain words.


I'm just using my freedom of speech.

Feel free.

[OnlyTellsTruths]

I wonder if the police officers stopped swearing as well.

[Bikewer]

As a police officer, I can assure you that my language is always free of naughtiness....

But seriously, has not SCOTUS already ruled on such laws?

It's easier to make a case for "public peace disturbance".

[COLONEL]

Now that the economy sucks Towns and state Govts will try all kinds of ways to make a buck.
New Hamshire State police have a new laser gun to use on speeders and I jokingly said to our police chief that I saw them set up on a local road the other day and he told me that withh speeders there is always plenty of revenue to be made. Oh and the new laser not only records a persons speed but takes their picture too. If you in Mass. beware the police are parking a van on the side of the highways and make it look like it is broke down. They are taking pictures of speeding cars and not bothering to stop you. They then mail a ticket with the picture of the time,date,and speed on it. I found this out from a Mass. State trooper friend of mine. So beware when in Mass and NH

[I Ratant]

If one doesn't speed, what's the concern?

[OnlyTellsTruths]

If one doesn't speed, what's the concern?

QFT (without the canary yellow color)

--------------

So what "public" places would normally have foul language and might be affected by this law?

Bars? Ball parks? Churches? (bingo night)

[Careyp74]

I agree. The point I'm making is, Careyp74 said he/she would fight this fine just for principle and possibly sue. Is it cool for me to swear in front of his/her kids?

This town is not looking to step on people rights, they just want people to clean up their act. I see nothing wrong with that.

Well, no. That wasn't me. I was the one asking you to clarify what exactly the way you were talking for the same points that ZirconBlue and Rasmus already beat me to make.

Curse in front of my house, I don't care. Kids and adults do that now, and so what. Accost my children, and there will be more than just a freedom of speech case printed in the papers.

[KingMerv00]

Just to be clear. It's cool with you if I stand in front of your house or business and use whatever language I choose? Would this also be OK if you're small kids are around?

It doesn't matter whether or not it is "OK with" me, you, or anybody else. There is a bigger principle involved here. I'm not "OK with" the KKK marching through a black neighborhood spewing racist insults. But they should have every legal right to do so as long as they remain peaceful.

[KingMerv00]

This town is not looking to step on people rights, they just want people to clean up their act. I see nothing wrong with that.

This type of Stepford mentality is far more insulting and scary than any obscenity in my opinion. Perhaps we should fine DGM so he'll clean up his act?

[Xulld]

As a police officer, I can assure you that my language is always free of naughtiness....

But seriously, has not SCOTUS already ruled on such laws?

It's easier to make a case for "public peace disturbance".

http://hlpronline.com/2012/06/massachusetts-town-plans-to-cite-people-for-public-profanity-heres-why-it-wont-work/#more-9374

[Careyp74]

It doesn't matter whether or not it is "OK with" me, you, or anybody else. There is a bigger principle involved here. I'm not "OK with" the KKK marching through a black neighborhood spewing racist insults. But they should have every legal right to do so as long as they remain peaceful.

At first my opinion to the law was 'good, I don't have to shield my kids against things I don't like' which was the intent of the law in a way. But then I thought about rights, and better ways of dealing with things.

In your example, I would take my son to the march, and point out who they are and what they were doing. Then I would have a conversation with him on how screwed up their thinking is, and show him that not everyone in the world is loving and mentally competent. I think it is better to expose your kids to everything on your terms, not out in the world relying on laws that attempt to shield them away from everything naughty.

ETA: This conversation could also lead to why they have the right to march, and how important it is to have these rights.