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Badly Shaved Monkey
25th May 2004, 11:09 AM
http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//forum_posts.asp?TID=1355&TPN=2

Just read our smug little friend Homeoskeptic/NaturalHealth proudly defending a fellow homeopath presiding over someone potentially going blind.

Felice
25th May 2004, 11:21 AM
I'm not sure what your tone of voice was in that last post, but I am about to burst into tears at the tragedy. I am deeply saddened.

Dragonrock
25th May 2004, 11:28 AM
I think this post says alot.

Here goes my faith in crot-h! Today she reported agg. in her LEFT eye.

"Faith" being the operative word. You have to believe that homeopathic remedies work in order for them to have an effect.

Eos of the Eons
25th May 2004, 11:28 AM
Whites of her eyes have turned brownish/reddish/yellow after hamamelis-could the remedy do that?

They say her "response to remedy" is unusual. Gads!! They are blaming the changes on the remedy? The water? remedies can cause aggravations if they are the right ones.


OMFG! If you get worse, it was the RIGHT remedy...

Why are they allowed to get away with this?

NoZed Avenger
25th May 2004, 11:36 AM
In response to advice to coordinate with a doctor:

When we need your advice in the middle of a
homeopathic case discussion, then rest assured,
we'll be sure to ask for it. Other than that please stop
posting here and keep out of our discussions that do
not involve you in any way. Stick to the Chit-Chat
forum where you belong.

The woman may be losing her sight andbeing fed false hopes; I feel helpless.

Bowser
25th May 2004, 11:43 AM
Her allopath had already given up on her. So, all you folks are saying she should seek no other source of help? I don't think you have read the thread very carefully.

NoZed Avenger
25th May 2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by NoZed Avenger
In response to advice to coordinate with a doctor:



The woman may be losing her sight and being fed false hopes; I feel helpless.

Edited to add:

I scrolled up even further and was surprised to see this early on:
This really should be handled by a qualified practitioner. . .

. . . and then realised that they were talking about a qualified homeopath.

N/A

NoZed Avenger
25th May 2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Bowser
Her allopath had already given up on her. So, all you folks are saying she should seek no other source of help? I don't think you have read the thread very carefully.

I read it. We have a third-hand report to begin with; the helper states that the woman states that her doctor states that he cannot do anything for her.

I suppose that, assuming that is all accurate related, a second opinion or a different specialist is out of the question? It is not stated, but I am also assuming that the woman is paying for these 20C and 30C 'remedies'.

I am all for her seeking another source of help; but to be blunt - that is not what she is doing.

N/A

Badly Shaved Monkey
25th May 2004, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Bowser
Her allopath had already given up on her. So, all you folks are saying she should seek no other source of help? I don't think you have read the thread very carefully.

Ah, the mask has come off.

Well, to answer your points.

1. The homeopath advising this person has only the patients account of their own disease. She have not taken the trouble to deal with her existing medical advisers in an appropriately professional manner and so has no idea whatsoever what her medical records have to say about her problems.

2. For goodness sake, Astra is playing with someone's vision over an internet message board. She's never. even seen the patient

3. "all you folks are saying she should seek no other source of help?" Not at all. She should be advised to seek a further competent medical opinion. it is very unlikely that spontaneous ocular haemorrhage can remain a genuinely undiagnosable condition, she may just need another and better doctor. meanwhile your homeopathic friend now acts as an obstacle to this.

I didn't think my opinion of homeopaths could fall any further, but the contributors to that thread have moved from the ethically dubious to the criminally negligent.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
25th May 2004, 01:00 PM
Okay, I just made my first post to Hpathy Forums. What a bunch of criminal f**kwits.

~~ Paul

Homeoskeptic
25th May 2004, 01:29 PM
Yeh, and what a total waste of a post that was.

You must be the biggest ****wit of the lot.

You don't need faith for homeopathic remedies to work either, they do.

geni
25th May 2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
You don't need faith for homeopathic remedies to work either, they do.

I can provide stong direct evidence that they do not. I can show that for them to work you would need to rewrite most of biology chemsity and physcis. I can show that your belife system is internaly contradictory. And againbst this you try to produce a few anicdotal cases that fade when it start to exaime them.

Homeopathy is a sick joke and you know it.

drkitten
25th May 2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Homeoskeptic

You don't need faith for homeopathic remedies to work either, they do.

Evidence?

LostAngeles
25th May 2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Yeh, and what a total waste of a post that was.

You must be the biggest f**kwit of the lot.

You don't need faith for homeopathic remedies to work either, they do.

Originally posted by Natural Health at the link provided by BSM
...If you don't like it you do not have to continue posting
here now do you?

*ahem* Snap.

As to whether this is criminally negligent would require a check of state laws. Personally I see a "practicing medicine without a liscence" being likely, but that maybe me just being a jerk.

This. Is. Negligent. Criminally or no. High blood pressure can be a inherited condition, it can come from stress, and it can have nothing to do with diet.

The woman needs to see a liscenced medical physician, and if she has, then she may need a second opinion from another liscenced medical physician and not someone over the Internet.

jj
25th May 2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Yeh, and what a total waste of a post that was.

You must be the biggest f**kwit of the lot.

You don't need faith for homeopathic remedies to work either, they do.

Really?

How come nobody has ever cited even a twinge of decent, confirmable evidence?

You made the claim, now would you get with the program and prove it?

I won't even comment on the OT here, it's beyond my ability to put down words on the page.

Pantastic
25th May 2004, 03:09 PM
Part of me hopes this person does have an incurable, irreversible eye condition, because otherwise these deluded, untrained, unqualified idiots are heaping yet more misery on what I expect is already a distressing condition.

They like to think they are injecting 'positivity', but this is also known as 'false hope'. It is cruel and ultimately more damaging to the person involved than being honest from the start.

But what am I saying?
Honesty?
Ethics?
Evidence?
From homeopaths?

I hope this insane cult dies out sooner rather than later.

Zombified
25th May 2004, 03:24 PM
It wouldn't help. One poster already described having a best friend and "homeopathic mentor" die of untreated but treatable cancer, and while they had a twinge of doubt, it was quickly shouted down.

I really hope this person recovers in spite of the homeopaths incompetence. I'm sure we'll hear if she does: they'll hold her up as an example of successful treatement, but I wouldn't wish anybody permanent disability just to prove a point.

That's what the homeopaths are doing, after all.

BPSCG
25th May 2004, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by LostAngeles
The woman needs to see a liscenced medical physician, and if she has, then she may need a second opinion from another liscenced medical physician and not someone over the Internet. Well, you know that and I know that. And probably this woman has friends who know that, too, and are going nuts trying to get her to see a real doctor.

But there are some people that simply refuse to be helped. It's sad, but what can you do? You're certainly not going to get her to see a real doctor by going onto the hpathy forum and telling the quacks there that they're hurting her.

One can only hope that after she goes blind, she sues her homeopath naked.

geni
25th May 2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by LostAngeles
As to whether this is criminally negligent would require a check of state laws. Personally I see a "practicing medicine without a liscence" being likely, but that maybe me just being a jerk.


One of the things homeopaths are good at is staying legal. They have clients not paicents. they tend to have legal lopeholes that date back to the turn of the centry and to be honest the regulating authorities don't want to upset all the doctors doing a little homeopathy on the side.

Zombified
25th May 2004, 03:57 PM
I bet whatever the homeopaths say on the Internet, most of them have their 'clients' sign a waiver that says to consult an M.D...

Drooper
25th May 2004, 04:41 PM
When people who give out medical advice can make the following statements, there should be a justified criminal charge.

Year ago I thought homeopathy is yet another kind of herbal medicine but for weirdos and now she asks me for advice.

From ignorance to expert in a year.

geni
25th May 2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Drooper
From ignorance to expert in a year.

I wounder what took them so long? even an advanced knowlage of homeopathy should take half that.

Felice
25th May 2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by geni


I wounder what took them so long? even an advanced knowlage of homeopathy should take half that.
For best results one should dilute such knowledge homeopathically with science... :)

Chris Haynes
25th May 2004, 07:36 PM
Gag... I cannot believe these people take themselves seriously. Honestly, if any of them had any modicom of scientific knowledge... they would see how ridiculous the whole premise is.

I have a teenage son with a genetic heart condition: hypertrophic cardiomyopathy with obstruction. What would be the homeopathic remedy for that be? A remedy made with heart muscle?

(he is presently taking Atenolol)

LucyR
25th May 2004, 07:50 PM
Not to derail, but why did you choose Hydrogen Cyanide for a user name?

Chris Haynes
25th May 2004, 08:21 PM
It was taken from the initials of my given name... I noticed it in high school chemistry and thought is was kind of cool.

Mercutio
25th May 2004, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by LucyR
Not to derail, but why did you choose Hydrogen Cyanide for a user name? I am laughing to myself at this...I should be saying "that's what PMs are for"...but the truth is, I want to know, too.

But ... not to derail...sorta...

I saw Spalding Gray's Gray's Anatomy, in which he talks of all the treatments he tried as a response to his "macular pucker". The movie is poignant, and shows the desperation of a man with an eye problem needing intervention. I do not remember whether Gray goes the homeopathic route, but he does speak of going to a psychic surgeon (who tries to pull goo out of his eye, of course).

The terrible position this "client" must be in makes me sympathetic to her plight. I would think she would reach out to virtually any chance...what sort of bottom-feeder would A) prevent her from getting other medical advice, while B) treating her with...distilled water...

I agree with Felice--I am deeply saddened.

LostAngeles
25th May 2004, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by Mercutio
I am laughing to myself at this...I should be saying "that's what PMs are for"...but the truth is, I want to know, too.

But ... not to derail...sorta...

I saw Spalding Gray's Gray's Anatomy, in which he talks of all the treatments he tried as a response to his "macular pucker". The movie is poignant, and shows the desperation of a man with an eye problem needing intervention. I do not remember whether Gray goes the homeopathic route, but he does speak of going to a psychic surgeon (who tries to pull goo out of his eye, of course).

The terrible position this "client" must be in makes me sympathetic to her plight. I would think she would reach out to virtually any chance...what sort of bottom-feeder would A) prevent her from getting other medical advice, while B) treating her with...distilled water...

I agree with Felice--I am deeply saddened.

Having a thing about eye injuries makes me wince over that goo bit. Only my eye doctor can put his hand near those.

Having a thing about bottom-feeders like that is another component of "I want to go and cry now" feeling this gives me. While we might be able to help other with this forum and the JREF, here's someone we might not be able to...

What's going to happen to her?

That thought makes me rather sick. And I hate people, too.

LucyR
25th May 2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide
It was taken from the initials of my given name... I noticed it in high school chemistry and thought is was kind of cool.

Ok thanks. I won't say anything more after this but you do know of course, that it's a rather nasty substance?

Chris Haynes
25th May 2004, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by LucyR


Ok thanks. I won't say anything more after this but you do know of course, that it's a rather nasty substance?

Of course... which is why I thought it was cool as a high school student (many DECADES ago). It also was amusing during discussions of laetrile for cancer in alternative health discussion when I just used my initials.

It sometimes fits my acidic personality... because despite it being very nasty stuff, it is very usefull in many industrial applications. And it is a natural substance, found in the pits of many fruits (not just apricots).

At least we can understand how and why HCN works... as opposed homeopathy. Which, well... unless I can see some substative proof or explanation of its mechanism --- I think homeopathy just does NOT work at anything but removing funds from the patient's, er, client's bank account.