Teenager Elizabeth Smart Found Alive

[subgenius]

All parents are crying for joy tonight.
http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=6&aid=D7PNUFNO0_story
Give your children a hug.

[Denise]

I gave my daughter a hug. But she made me chase her around the house first! 9 year olds are odd!

It's nice to get some good news for a change. I thought she was dead for sure.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Denise
I thought she was dead for sure.

So did the "psychics".

[Lemastre]

Miss Smart is an interesting case indeed. No doubt most people are glad she's returned to her family. It appears right now that she had ample opportunity to flee her "captors" during her association with them. I'm curious why she didn't if that option was available.

[darling]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/884413.asp?0cv=CA00

"One reporter, Mike Carter of The Seattle Times, told MSNBC’s Dan Abrams he had received information that Elizabeth had been stopped by police “in other states,” and that the girl “gave fake names in those states.”"

Now that is just downright odd.

[Psi Baba]

Originally posted by Lemastre
Miss Smart is an interesting case indeed. No doubt most people are glad she's returned to her family. It appears right now that she had ample opportunity to flee her "captors" during her association with them. I'm curious why she didn't if that option was available.
Have you paid attention to anything that's been reported on the news? Gimme a break.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by budddyh
http://www.msnbc.com/news/884413.asp?0cv=CA00

"One reporter, Mike Carter of The Seattle Times, told MSNBC’s Dan Abrams he had received information that Elizabeth had been stopped by police “in other states,” and that the girl “gave fake names in those states.”"

Now that is just downright odd.



Wow! Does this always work? ( giving fake names )



I guess you just need to make sure your dog, disguised as a Pit Bull, doesn't jump out first..:D

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


So did the "psychics".

Yes, that is true, her body, I believe, would be found in some woods, near water....

[Tmy]

Didnt the police beat to death the #1 suspect in this case. Guess they were wrong about the guy. Another example as to the reliabilty of tourture.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Tmy
Didnt the police beat to death the #1 suspect in this case. Guess they were wrong about the guy. Another example as to the reliabilty of tourture.

You have any details about this..?

Sure it is the same case?

[renata]

Originally posted by Diogenes


You have any details about this..?

Sure it is the same case?

No torture, but death in custody.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/09/05/ricci.widow/index.html

This was being discussed in this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15542&pagenumber=3)

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by renata


No torture, but death in custody.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/09/05/ricci.widow/index.html

This was being discussed in this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15542&pagenumber=3)

Thanks..

makes this:
Didnt the police beat to death the #1 suspect in this case. Guess they were wrong about the guy. Another example as to the reliabilty of tourture.

Pretty disingenuous...

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Diogenes


Thanks..

makes this:


Pretty disingenuous...

It was meant to be disingenouous. Although he did die under suspcious circumstances. (were you expecting "Cause of death: Multiple phone book trama to the head")


Thanks for the link Renata

[rikzilla]

What a great outcome!!! As a Daddy to two daughters I couldn't be happier.

However....get a load of the contradictions that will soon become more and more apparent.

Dad is thanking God for a "miracle"
The family is very religious and believe Christ was looking out for their girl.

But #1...the family allowed this creep in their house that they met panhandling in Salt Lake City. He was dressed up like Jesus and was a street preacher who gave his name as "Emmanuel". They allowed him in their house...with access to their kids because he fit into the Christian mythos.

Conclusion:
Had this family been more skeptical and less religious, their daughter never would have been taken in the first place. I bet anything that what will come out is that this girl cooperated with "Emmanuel" because he indoctrinated her into his own little religious cult. :rolleyes:

Religion sucks.
-zilla

[headscratcher4]

Rik:

Don't forget, this family prayed for the safe return, and, THank Ed, their prayers were answered...

What about all of the un-answered prayers for missing children who are never returned home? Certainly, those parents aren't praying correctly...

Clearly, God favors upper-middle class mormons, at least this week.

Originally posted by rikzilla

Had this family been more skeptical and less religious, their daughter never would have been taken in the first place.


So you agree with American that the parents are really at fault. Nice.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Tmy


It was meant to be disingenouous. Although he did die under suspcious circumstances. (were you expecting "Cause of death: Multiple phone book trama to the head")

Thanks for the link Renata

We were all waiting for something to back up our position on " the reliabilty of tourture"...

We are still waiting...

I'm convinced it was the 'sack lunches'...

If he had had some ' hot meals', he would possibly be out on parole, ....again, ..... by now...

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by sundog



So you agree with American that the parents are really at fault. Nice.

Who would you say is at fault? (besides the crazy perp...he was just doing what crazy perps do.)

Who would you say was at fault for the sinking of the Titanic? (and you can't blame the iceberg either....it was just sitting there doing what icebergs do)

Liberals always hand-wring when it comes to assigning responsibility. We're always asked to examine "root causes"...or that one culture cannot pass judgement on another culture. *********. Freedom must come hand in hand with responsibility.

-zilla

Originally posted by rikzilla


Liberals...-zilla

Must you paint EVERYTHING with your I-hate-liberals paintroller? You are getting worse than JK. You are revealing yourself to be a simpleminded boor.

Does anyone besides Rik the Nutcase see a political angle here???

from the CNN report:

After the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, Mitchell changed his look, Tom Smart said. He shucked the robes, shaved his beard and appeared as a "clean-cut" panhandler in the fall of 2001 when Lois Smart, Elizabeth's mother, encountered him.

"Lois gave him $5 and asked him if he wanted to come up and do some work. She was impressed by him," the uncle said.

Which places Rik's uninformed leap to judgement:

Had this family been more skeptical and less religious, their daughter never would have been taken in the first place.

squarely in the sewer where it belongs, with American's uninformed ravings.

Nice company you keep, Rik.

This is where a rational person would say "Oops, I was wrong". Not that that means anything to YOU, of course; you never back down, you're always right.

[DavidJames]

Perhaps it's blind nostalgia, but when I started reading this forum I recall the posts consisting of intelligent, skeptical discussions. To often now it's disintegrated into intellectual lazy, childish sniping.

Originally posted by DavidJames
Perhaps it's blind nostalgia, but when I started reading this forum I recall the posts consisting of intelligent, skeptical discussions. To often now it's disintegrated into intellectual lazy, childish sniping.

I apologize if you feel I have contributed to this. It's hard to stay silent when Rik starts with his bull-in-a-china-shop style postings.

I have put Rik on ignore, so someone else take over.

[Lemastre]

Originally posted by Psi Baba

Have you paid attention to anything that's been reported on the news? Gimme a break.
I've paid little attention to the news regarding miss Smart's reappearance other than to note that she was found walking along a public street in the company of two persons, who I suppose are assumed to be her abductors. The question raised by this is simply why a fully ambulatory youngster wishing to part company with her companions didn't just run away into the nearest business place, or just run anywhere to put some distance between her and them? I'm sure we'll get some sort of answer to this in the next few days. Right now, we're speculating idly.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by sundog
from the CNN report:

After the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, Mitchell changed his look, Tom Smart said. He shucked the robes, shaved his beard and appeared as a "clean-cut" panhandler in the fall of 2001 when Lois Smart, Elizabeth's mother, encountered him.

"Lois gave him $5 and asked him if he wanted to come up and do some work. She was impressed by him," the uncle said.

Which places Rik's uninformed leap to judgement:

Had this family been more skeptical and less religious, their daughter never would have been taken in the first place.

squarely in the sewer where it belongs, with American's uninformed ravings.

Nice company you keep, Rik.

This is where a rational person would say "Oops, I was wrong". Not that that means anything to YOU, of course; you never back down, you're always right.

:rolleyes: God what a moron you are!

So, the parents were not at fault because the panhandler that they allowed in their home was "clean-cut"???? Just what, Sundog does a "cleancut" panhandler look like? How does one become "impressed" with said panhandler????

Why don't we all wait and see what comes out in the days and weeks to come? I'm betting that it will all come out that the reason Mrs. Smart was "impressed" with the panhandler was because he appealed to her religiously. This is going to be another story of stupid people doing stupid and dangerous things because of religion.

So...who here really disagrees with me on this?? Would any of you skeptics allow a "cleancut" panhandler into your house...and contact with your children??? Besides Sundog that is, I guess he'd allow it! (whadda maroon) :D

-z

[headscratcher4]

The question raised by this is simply why a fully ambulatory youngster wishing to part company with her companions didn't just run away into the nearest business place, or just run anywhere to put some distance between her and them?

Two words come to mind: Stockholm Syndrome.

Who can know what pressures etc. have been brought to bear on this child after her capture to keep her in line? She is alive, she is Heroic for keeping herself alive under conditions of violence and intimedation that we can't understand. She did what she had to do, as she understood it in circumstances that are beyond most of our imagining...she is a very brave girl, and no one should cast aspersions on choices presented to her under circumstances of violence, rage and terror beyond our ability to understand....

[Aoidoi]

Originally posted by rikzilla
:rolleyes: God what a moron you are!Sigh. Is there really a reason for name calling?
So, the parents were not at fault because the panhandler that they allowed in their home was "clean-cut"???? Just what, Sundog does a "cleancut" panhandler look like? How does one become "impressed" with said panhandler????I believe Sundog's point was a rebuttal to this:But #1...the family allowed this creep in their house that they met panhandling in Salt Lake City. He was dressed up like Jesus and was a street preacher who gave his name as "Emmanuel". They allowed him in their house...with access to their kids because he fit into the Christian mythos. She's pointing out that he wasn't dressed as Jesus at the time Mrs. Smart met her.

Why don't we all wait and see what comes out in the days and weeks to come? I'm betting that it will all come out that the reason Mrs. Smart was "impressed" with the panhandler was because he appealed to her religiously. This is going to be another story of stupid people doing stupid and dangerous things because of religion.Um, isn't this a tad hypocritical? First asking to wait before speculating then speculate based on your biases? You may well be correct, but you seem to want it both ways.

So...who here really disagrees with me on this?? Would any of you skeptics allow a "cleancut" panhandler into your house...and contact with your children??? Besides Sundog that is, I guess he'd allow it! (whadda maroon) :DI generally avoid panhandlers, though as I live in an apartment and have no kids the rest is moot. But really, is a woman attempting to help out a fellow human being really doing something wrong? Hindsight in this case says yet, but I'm reluctant to blame a woman for what was apparently an act of charity.

It is a bit of an interesting inkblot test to see how people react to stories where there's so little evidence. Rikzilla blames liberals, the girls parents, and religion. American was blaming the girl. Many others (generally parents) immediately side with the child. Fascinating to watch, really.

[Lemastre]

Originally posted by headscratcher4


Two words come to mind: Stockholm Syndrome.

Who can know what pressures etc. have been brought to bare on this child after her capture to keep her in line? She is alive, she is Heroic for keeping herself alive under conditions of violence and intimedation that we can't understand. She did what she had to do, as she understood it in circumstances that are beyond most of our imagining...she is a very brave girl, and no one should cast aspersions on choices presented to her under circumstances of violence, rage and terror beyond our ability to understand....
What is popularly known as Stockholm Syndrome sounds like a good possibility to bear on this case. Whether violence and/or intimidation were employed as restraints we haven't yet been told (I'm sure the noon news will bring us up to speed on this). At any rate, it's probably safe, and certainly charitable, to assume she was taken against her will. In that case, I hope the girl has the mental toughness to suffer no lasting trauma.

Originally posted by Aoidoi
She's pointing out that he wasn't dressed as Jesus at the time Mrs. Smart met her.

She? Who you callin' SHE, bubba? :D

Just because I don't spray excess testosterone around like a firehose everywhere I go doesn't mean I'm a WOMAN, for Heaven's sake.

Just kidding. ;)

[Aoidoi]

LOL, mea culpa. Somehow Mrs. Smart and Sundog got their pronouns a bit mixed up in my post. That's what I get for not editing. :D

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Aoidoi

It is a bit of an interesting inkblot test to see how people react to stories where there's so little evidence. Rikzilla blames liberals, the girls parents, and religion. American was blaming the girl. Many others (generally parents) immediately side with the child. Fascinating to watch, really. [/B]

Well man,

I'm glad you said this. Now I understand that you are merely enjoying this discussion from a purely objective intellectual point of view. In your strange and detached way you think yourself a better judge than those of us who do have children and, as a result, biases. I guess you think of the rest of us as your science project? I can live with that.

But look at it this way Aoidoi; the science of psychology is not a "hard science" at all. You cannot hook up your subject to a machine and quantify him to be "sane" or "insane". As a matter of fact psychologists are a bit like priests and their subjects are a bit like heretics. Psychologists must always be "sane"...they must adhere to society's definition of sanity. (social dogma) The "insane" are a bit like heretics...seeing reality in a different light....as soon as the insane start saying what their doctors want to hear they are "making progress" or becoming more sane. Much in the way of the recanting heretic.

Therefore since the psychologist must always be "sane" in order to judge the patient insane by way of ink blots etc... psychology becomes the only "science" where the scientist must not know what he's researching. Now that's really interesting! :p

-z

[Doubt]

Originally posted by rikzilla



Liberals always hand-wring when it comes to assigning responsibility.

-zilla

Gross over generalization. The word always removes any resemblance of this being an objective statement. Also this exposes a political bias where one wishes to see all political opponents as having identical values. This is quite useful for building strawmen, but provides no useful information to anyone.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Doubt


Gross over generalization. The word always removes any resemblance of this being an objective statement. Also this exposes a political bias where one wishes to see all political opponents as having identical values. This is quite useful for building strawmen, but provides no useful information to anyone.

Doubt,

I've never been circumspect in relation to my political beliefs. Of course I have a political bias...so do you. Personally, I am suspicious of those who claim to have no political bias...they are either in denial or have it well hidden. It's awfully hard to be objective about politics. Isn't politics non-objective??? Isn't the entire concept of "politics" just about the most subjective thing that there is??? :confused:

Seems that way to me.

-zilla

[Tmy]

Generalizations!??! You mean how we trained to label ourselves as libral or conservative. Its just a repub/demo conspiricy to keep 3rd parties from developing!!!! FIGHT THE POWER!!!


This Smart thing takes the cake on inane press conferences. What a friggen borefest!! I laughed at how the police are just patting themselves on the back over and over. AS IF THEY DID ANYTHING!! It was the lady who saw Americas Most Wanted that broke the thing. Kudos to her.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Doubt,

I've never been circumspect in relation to my political beliefs. Of course I have a political bias...so do you. Personally, I am suspicious of those who claim to have no political bias...they are either in denial or have it well hidden. It's awfully hard to be objective about politics. Isn't politics non-objective??? Isn't the entire concept of "politics" just about the most subjective thing that there is??? :confused:

Seems that way to me.

-zilla

The point is, this thread wasn't abut politics at all before you started ranting about the liberals.

Zee

[Doctor X]

I was planning to post a note on behalf of the gentleman who had been arrested and vilified for her "death."

However, I read this:

Didnt the police beat to death the #1 suspect in this case. Guess they were wrong about the guy. Another example as to the reliabilty of tourture.

He died of a hemorrhage in the cerebellum. The cause of these are nearly always secondary to hypertension which causes chronic changes to the small vessels of a particular area. Such hemorrhages are generally very hard--if not impossible--to cause by head trauma--you tend to cause damge to other areas as well.

No need to further perpetuate rumors.

--J.D.