Gen Y's adversion to driving.

[Warrior1461]

http://news.yahoo.com/americas-generation-y-not-driven-drive-145632280--sector.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - To Shoshana Gurian-Sherman, driving seemed like a huge hassle.
Breach of rule 4 removed. Do not copy and paste entire articles from elsewhere.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

(Might want to edit down how much of the article you quoted.)

My cousins and I definitely fit with this model. I would like to think this could be a long-term change in transit use, but I very much doubt it.

The number of teen drivers has dramatically decreased over the past couple of decades. In 1983, 69% of all 17-year-olds had driver’s licenses. By 2008, only half of 17-year-olds had licenses. What’s behind the big drop?

Researchers hypothesize that the rise of the Internet, text messaging, and other technology has made it easier for teens to connect with each other and socialize without the need of a car. The car culture of generations past has apparently been replaced, at least partially, by the e-culture of texts, Twitter, Netflix, iTunes, and Facebook.

Linky. (http://moneyland.time.com/2011/12/08/fewer-teenagers-have-drivers-licenses-because-of-gas-prices-and-the-internet/#ixzz1zPYwyNBS[)

Personally, I think cars are big money traps. And death traps, but that is secondary :p . A big problem my cousins and I face is that one has more job options available if one has a car, but you need a good source of income to buy a car. Obviously there are loans, but when you go a few months between jobs and you need to pay insurance, gas, random maintenance...

I'm betting there it is related to more "boomerang" kids as well. Don't need a car if you are living at home and your parents do the grocery shopping.

[Alan]

I don't drive because I don't do anything that requires it. Places I want to go are within walking distance or a train ride away. And there are the costs. And the Learner period delays the gratification of going where I would want to, as it would be at least the same as if someone with me drove me there in terms of their time investment.

Having one's own car is a requirement for some jobs, though.

[lionking]

All my kids got their licenses as soon as they turned 18, and purchased second hand cars soon after. Most either need their cars for work, or there is no public transport to get them there. I don't see any of their friends adverse to driving either.

[Rolfe]

I'd had it with public transport by the time I was 25. I bought a motorbike.

I passed my driving test when I was 18 and it was handy to be able to borrow my Dad's car sometimes, but no way could I have afforded one of my own. I went on travelling by train and bus and bicycle. But being able to drive at all, even in a borrowed car, was really handy. Having the motorbike was an absolute liberation.

I finally bought my first car when I was 32. I was so proud of it. I'm now on my 4th car, and I see no prospect of giving up unless my eyesight or reflexes pack it in. Even when they finally give me my free bus pass.

I thought public transport in the USA was so terrible everybody had to drive?

Rolfe.

[Ryokan]

I'm 35 and don't have a license.. I've always been happy with the bus service where I live, and always found better use for the money I could've used to get a license.

[The Dark Lord]

I hope more people stop driving. Less congestion and less chance of accidents for me!

[Warrior1461]

If we have the urban gen y riding bikes to work. This will mean long tern health benefits as this will fight the obesity epidemic in the long run.

[Howie Felterbush]

I'd had it with public transport by the time I was 25. I bought a motorbike.

I passed my driving test when I was 18 and it was handy to be able to borrow my Dad's car sometimes, but no way could I have afforded one of my own. I went on travelling by train and bus and bicycle. But being able to drive at all, even in a borrowed car, was really handy. Having the motorbike was an absolute liberation.

I finally bought my first car when I was 32. I was so proud of it. I'm now on my 4th car, and I see no prospect of giving up unless my eyesight or reflexes pack it in. Even when they finally give me my free bus pass.

I thought public transport in the USA was so terrible everybody had to drive?

Rolfe.

Of course you did. ;)

Down in Madison, WI, it's a point of hipster pride to tell people you don't have a car. Most of the non-car people take the bus or ride vintage, sustainable, shade-grown bicycles.

[Garrette]

I thought public transport in the USA was so terrible everybody had to drive?

Rolfe.Depends where. Major cities, particularly New York have more than adequate public transport so that cars aren't needed. Lesser cities, for example Louisville, Kentucky, near my home have sufficient bus transport if you both live and work in the city, but not nearly so convenient as New York.

In most places, though, unless you are fortunate enough in your circumstances regarding residence adn work locale, cars are necessary or nearly enough so that it may as well be.

[Halfcentaur]

I was born in 1980. I put off learning to drive until I was around 18, at the time it felt like I was the last person on Earth to get with the program, looking back it doesn't seem that weird anymore.

Living in Oklahoma City, unless you're in a suburban area you are forced to drive for the most part. Public transportation here is mostly non existent, and the city, landwise, is one of the largest on Earth for being spread out.

[Mumbles]

I'd had it with public transport by the time I was 25. I bought a motorbike.

I passed my driving test when I was 18 and it was handy to be able to borrow my Dad's car sometimes, but no way could I have afforded one of my own. I went on travelling by train and bus and bicycle. But being able to drive at all, even in a borrowed car, was really handy. Having the motorbike was an absolute liberation.

I finally bought my first car when I was 32. I was so proud of it. I'm now on my 4th car, and I see no prospect of giving up unless my eyesight or reflexes pack it in. Even when they finally give me my free bus pass.

I thought public transport in the USA was so terrible everybody had to drive?

Rolfe.

Not at all - or at least, not everywhere. I didn't get a liscence until I turned 22, and most of my neighborhood friends in Boston waited even longer than that. The bus/subway system there is both far cheaper than driving, and far less stressful. The only real exceptions were some Sunday bus routes, and late nights (after 2am), when the system was shut down for a few hours. New York City is pretty similar, and driving in DC is just awful.

[Kestrel]

I thought public transport in the USA was so terrible everybody had to drive?

It depends on where you live. The town I grew up in didn't have a bus system until after I graduated from collage. Almost everyone I knew got a drivers license at 16.

On the fringes of the Denver urban area where I live now a car is just about mandatory. The nearest bus stop is over a mile away. The bus comes to that stop twice in the morning and twice in the evening and never on weekends. The nearest store of any kind is two miles away. But further into town public transit is a lot better and it's being improved every year.

[Delvo]

I thought public transport in the USA was so terrible everybody had to driveNot consistently, but in a lot of parts, yes. It's essentially a function of distance between destinations or length of a typical trip out. The more spread-out stuff is, the less efficient a public system can be. On average, the USA is more spacious than Europe, but in our bigger, denser cities, everything's still piled on top of everything else just as much as in a European city, so those cities get good bus & train systems (and good taxi service), which would be impossible in the rest of the country.

Right now, I live in a town where an extensive public transportation system wouldn't work. I drive a car, but I intend to get a scooter as soon as I can, partly to save money and extend the car's life. But I guess they'd still count "riding" a scooter or motorcycle as "driving". :D

I didn't bother getting a license when I turned 16 because I could ride my bicycle or a bus to anything I cared about. (The bus system was sort of skimpy, but was good enough in my part of the city if you planned ahead with the schedules.) That was in 1992, not a part of the modern phenomenon they're talking about here, and it wouldn't have worked if I'd wanted to go to certain other places in the city or had less time & willingness & ability for the biking. I finally learned to drive and got my license at about age 18.5 because my father convinced me that it would make sense to have that ability. I still didn't become a frequent driver until I moved off-campus for my third year at the university, and have biked or walked as much as conditions allowed in the various places I've lived since then.

All of that was dictated purely by practical considerations like distance, costs, and payload. If there's a real change going on here between one generation and another, I agree with the part of the article which suggests that it's because younger people are more practical and less emotionally invested in automobiles. They aren't the cultural novelty that they once were, and they keep getting more expensive and more crammed with more expensive parts with more expensive ways to break down.

[jasonpatterson]

I thought public transport in the USA was so terrible everybody had to drive?


Not to repeat the "it depends on location bit" yet again, but one major factor in whether you can realistically not drive in the US is the way our schools are organized. If you have a job in an area with crappy public schools and you have children, you really can't live near work, because you're stuck sending your kids to a private school or to the crappy school. Instead you move into a home half an hour away so that your kids get a decent education and you drive to work. Because it's so spread out, public transit really isn't practical. Most of suburbia doesn't even have sidewalks anymore.

[Seismosaurus]

I learned to drive in 2007/8, when I was 39 years old, and got my first car a few weeks after passing the test. So I have kind of a good perspective on this.

When you don't drive, much of your life is defined by that fact. Simple things - for example, I always strived to live as close as possible to where I worked. Generally within a mile or less, if possible. If further than that, you have to start thinking about bus routes.

Then you generally plan your travel a bit more carefully - can you stop off at the shops on the way home to buy groceries, rather than having to make a second trip? What's the weather going to be like when you have to travel? Do you have enough change on you for tickets? Do you need to leave more time for the trip, in case that bus happens to be full and you can't get on?

You're also somewhat dependent on mooching off friends and relatives. I tended to move around every few years, and I used to rope in relatives with a car to drive me.

When I got a car, the cliche came true - the amount of freedom I had increased considerably.

But there was one cost, outside of the financial one. I've always been a fairly big guy, but in the year following buying my first car I got much bigger through lack of exercise. And that led to my suffering from sleep apnea, which cost me my job. The lifestyle, health and financial fallout from all that is still snowballing through my life even now. Yes, I'm fully aware that this is nobody's fault but my own - I could have taken that car to drive down the gym, and I didn't. I could have gone to a doctor when I started feeling tired all the time, and I didn't. No excuses. But in that respect, getting a car practically ruined my life. Funny how things turn out.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I think one factor re: public transit is that more kids are spending longer times at universities that tend to either be in a major city with decent public transit (statistically still less than a European one) or in a "college town" where all the needs are centralised for them.

Outside the metros I have no reference for comparison for US vs Europe.

[Cain]

I stopped reading the second time I noticed her hyphenated last name.

[Babbylonian]

I'm "Gen X," got my license at my earliest opportunity in 1988 (encouraged by parents), and quit driving over 10 years ago. I wasn't a great driver and I got angry way too easily - not to the point of doing anything illegal but my blood pressure and general stress level went down noticeably after I stopped.

At this point, since I work at home (no commuting during heavy traffic times) I could probably drive with little trouble but over the years I've come to have serious issues with people driving alone.when there are public transit options available, and we've got good options in my area. It seems incredibly wasteful in terms of resources both general and individual. At $2.10 per round trip, even going to my usual grocery store is more economical than the cost of gasoline in the average car (according to Google's estimates anyway).

Buses and trains can take a bit longer but the potential financial and environmental advantages are huge. And the more people willing to use them, the more frequent the buses will come and the more routes will be provided. In and right around Portland, Oregon, it's not even that limiting in terms of where one can live.

[Ian]

I'm "Gen X," got my license at my earliest opportunity in 1988 (encouraged by parents), and quit driving over 10 years ago. I wasn't a great driver and I got angry way too easily - not to the point of doing anything illegal but my blood pressure and general stress level went down noticeably after I stopped.

At this point, since I work at home (no commuting during heavy traffic times) I could probably drive with little trouble but over the years I've come to have serious issues with people driving alone.when there are public transit options available, and we've got good options in my area. It seems incredibly wasteful in terms of resources both general and individual. At $2.10 per round trip, even going to my usual grocery store is more economical than the cost of gasoline in the average car (according to Google's estimates anyway).

Buses and trains can take a bit longer but the potential financial and environmental advantages are huge. And the more people willing to use them, the more frequent the buses will come and the more routes will be provided. In and right around Portland, Oregon, it's not even that limiting in terms of where one can live.

I'm Gen X too. When I got to Miami, I found that public transportation was so-so. It was good enough that Randi was able to pick me up at the train station on weekends, but not having a car was a bit rough. I finally got a car when I started working for the police department and had to work midnight shifts. The Metro in Miami is good, but not nearly as good as it could be if expanded.

[Babbylonian]

I'm Gen X too. When I got to Miami, I found that public transportation was so-so. It was good enough that Randi was able to pick me up at the train station on weekends, but not having a car was a bit rough. I finally got a car when I started working for the police department and had to work midnight shifts. The Metro in Miami is good, but not nearly as good as it could be if expanded.
Late-night service is bad around here too, though to be fair the major lines don't stop running until after midnight and start running at about 5, so most folks who have to work a graveyard shift are covered.

[Orphia Nay]

I'm 45 and have never had a license.

My son is 19 and has still only got his learner's permit. He said last week he may end up like me and never drive.

I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

Eta: He's been living on his own since he started uni in February.

[NewtonTrino]

Interesting discussion because my SO and and were discussing today how much we both appreciate automobiles. We're in Maui for 4th of July week and when we go on vacation we try and rent out cool cars to try out. This week we ended up with a hemi challenger which is pretty fun to drive around the island.

I've been driving since before it was legal. Both of my parents let occasionally drive their cars before I had a license (sounds crazy doesn't it?). I've always been super passionate about cars. Mustang 5.0's were at the top of my want list when I was a teenager. I've driven many awesome cars since then and cars just keep becoming a bigger part of my life.

[The_Fire]

37, eligble for licens since I was 18, never got it. First it was the money, then it was time, then money again, then time again, now I'm used to public transport and trains are excellent for clearing your thoughts and last minute research when going long distances for work etc. Busses are, on the other hand, not my favorite and I spend as little time as I can in those.....

[Puppycow]

It all depends on where you live. What generation you are doesn't really matter.

I'm a lapsed driver. It was a necessary skill where I used to live and it isn't one now. If I had money to spare, it would be nice to own a car, but it isn't necessary.

Also, in the olden days there wasn't any internet, so we actually left the house to go shopping. Nowadays we only buy (some) groceries at the local store and we do most of our shopping online. Lately we've even been buying stuff like toilet paper online. The prices are generally better than what you find at a brick-and-mortar store. And of course it's more convenient because it is delivered right to our front door.

[Madouc]

Grew up in and still live in Hong Kong, and while I'm turning 30 this week (holy moly, how did that happen?), myself and the vast majority of my friends don't drive. The few that do got their licences in other countries and do not currently own a car. I've driven a car on three occassions where I actually teared up I hated it so much.

That said, I see the value of at least being able to drive when going off on holiday - exploring rual areas is certainly easier when you can rent a car. I could mark my landmark birthday with some lessons, but then there are so many other things I could be doing with the money.

[commandlinegamer]

Thirty-three before I learned to drive. Just wasn't that bothered.

Nowadays, I love driving, but I haven't had a vehicle for 4 years cos I can't afford to.

[Tatyana]

But there was one cost, outside of the financial one. I've always been a fairly big guy, but in the year following buying my first car I got much bigger through lack of exercise. And that led to my suffering from sleep apnea, which cost me my job. The lifestyle, health and financial fallout from all that is still snowballing through my life even now. Yes, I'm fully aware that this is nobody's fault but my own - I could have taken that car to drive down the gym, and I didn't. I could have gone to a doctor when I started feeling tired all the time, and I didn't.

Did you lose your job because you were tired all the time (because you had sleep apnea) or a direct result of sleep apnea?


I'm "Gen X," got my license at my earliest opportunity in 1988 (encouraged by parents), and quit driving over 10 years ago. I wasn't a great driver and I got angry way too easily - not to the point of doing anything illegal but my blood pressure and general stress level went down noticeably after I stopped.

At this point, since I work at home (no commuting during heavy traffic times) I could probably drive with little trouble but over the years I've come to have serious issues with people driving alone.when there are public transit options available, and we've got good options in my area. It seems incredibly wasteful in terms of resources both general and individual. At $2.10 per round trip, even going to my usual grocery store is more economical than the cost of gasoline in the average car (according to Google's estimates anyway).

Buses and trains can take a bit longer but the potential financial and environmental advantages are huge. And the more people willing to use them, the more frequent the buses will come and the more routes will be provided. In and right around Portland, Oregon, it's not even that limiting in terms of where one can live.

I am Gen X as well, and while I did have a car license, I lost it as I didn't convert it soon enough after immigrating.

I then got a motorbike license and lost that through too many tickets for speeding. :blush:

My partner is also Gen X, and he has a license, so we do rent cars on occasion when we are on holiday.

I can drive, I should really get my license, but it never seems like a priority, especially spending money on something I will rarely use.

We really like catching the train, and we are two minutes from the station.

[The Dark Lord]

Almost everybody I knew in high school got their licence at age 16. And many kids (hundreds) drove to school. The student parking lot is freaking huge. Easily bigger than the local Walmart's.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Almost everybody I knew in high school got their licence at age 16. And many kids (hundreds) drove to school. The student parking lot is freaking huge. Easily bigger than the local Walmart's.

Oh god, traffic at our high schools is nightmarish. At one of them there is a cop every morning directing traffic.

[brodski]

I got my license at 17 (they youngest you can drive here) but went to university at 18, where I didn't have or need a car- them moved to central London were I also didn't have or need a car and so haven't driven since. Over a decade later it is still perfectly legal for em to drive, but probably not a good idea.

[The Dark Lord]

Oh god, traffic at our high schools is nightmarish. At one of them there is a cop every morning directing traffic.

Yeah the traffic was pretty bad at my high school. It usually took a while to get in. They never had cops directing traffic though. I didn't have a first period my senior year partly in order to avoid the traffic.

[Eddie Dane]

I'm not surprised.

If you live in a walk-able community and have access to the Internet, why own an expensive machine that sucks up money all the time?

I wouldn't have a car if I could avoid it.

And I never take the car when I don't have to.
Lucky me: my town has lots of bicycle paths, I have a fast racebike for my own needs and one of these (http://bakfiets.nl/eng/)for groceries and kids.

[The Dark Lord]

Even if I could get by without a car (pretty much impossible where I live), I would not give it up. Driving is fun (at least it is if you've got 556 horses under the hood), plus it is more convenient. More expensive also? Sure, but I don't really care.

[Hallo Alfie]

Gen Y's adversion to driving.

All my kids got their licenses as soon as they turned 18, and purchased second hand cars soon after. Most either need their cars for work, or there is no public transport to get them there. I don't see any of their friends adverse to driving either.

Adverse - Adjective: Preventing success or development; harmful; unfavorable: "adverse weather conditions"

Averse - Adjective: Having a strong dislike of or opposition to something


I assume you all mean averse rather than adverse? :)

[Garrette]

Slightly OT, but my biggest complaint about public transportation in the US is not local but national. I occasionally travel many hundreds of miles and am forced to do so by car or plane; since the plane is so much more expensive, I usually drive. I would prefer a train, particularly since my starting point is near a fairly large city and my end point is in a very large city with excellent local public transport.

The problem is that long distance train travel in the US (at least the bit that I have investigated) is inconveniently timed, far too time-consuming, and far too expensive, with hubs in far too few cities. I would have to drive at minimum 100 miles to reach the nearest train hub, and since there are no express routes I would have to plan for a 30 hour trip (one way) at a cost higher than what I would pay in gas to drive.

I find the situation immensely disturbing.

[geni]

Still a lot of UK jobs that seem to require driving licences simply to filter out those who can't afford lessons.

[jiggeryqua]

In 30 adult years I never once failed to get anywhere I wanted to get, despite being a life-long non-driver. Well ok, except precisely once, when I spent all day at a roundabout trying to hitch to a summmer job in Skegness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skegness) and eventually decided I didn't really want to get there anyway. I did something else that summer. If only I were a driver, I'd know whether Skegness really was bracing (http://www.travelpostersonline.com/english-railway-travel-poster-art-print-skegness-is-so-bracing-its-quicker-by-rail-390-p.asp).

According to a Poetry Society survey of a few years ago, poets of all generations (well, those alive at the time) were largely non-drivers. Can't find a link, but I can't imagine the veracity of the claim concerns anyone here.

[Mark6]

So far this thread has been about where/whether people objectively need a car, while OP's article is about whether American teenagers want car as a status symbol (answer -- they almost universally used to, not any more). In strictly utilitarian sense, many previous-generation teenagers could have delayed getting a car, and likely would have saved money doing so. But having a car was a social thing, especially for a male teenager. Not any more.

I spotted this trend years ago -- iPhone replaced car as teenage status symbol. I also noticed that when I mention it to men my own age, they say dismissively "You can't have sex on an iPhone!" To which I respond: "How many times did you actually have sex in a car?" With some shock they realize -- never or almost never. The myth of a car as the place for nookie is just a myth -- or has been for at least 40 years. In suburbia it is very easy to find a place for nookie, whether you have a car or not. Social value of a car was mostly in taking one (and one's date) to interesting places. Smartphone and internet bring interesting places to you.

[Rat]

I didn't learn until I was some way into my thirties, and it was rarely a great handicap. Certainly it was a pain carrying several heavy bags of shopping home once a week, but other than that, we went to work on the bus and on the train on holidays. What convinced me to learn to drive was a combination of work demanding it (literally) and a few train-related disasters.

Driving is very expensive, not so much because of fuel, but all the other expenses, and I don't really enjoy it anyway, but I couldn't be without it now.

[marplots]

Adverse - Adjective: Preventing success or development; harmful; unfavorable: "adverse weather conditions"

Averse - Adjective: Having a strong dislike of or opposition to something


I assume you all mean averse rather than adverse? :)

Nice to see that. The error was the only reason I opened this thread. My inner editor was thinking, "Averse to grammar as well."

[Howie Felterbush]

So far this thread has been about where/whether people objectively need a car, while OP's article is about whether American teenagers want car as a status symbol (answer -- they almost universally used to, not any more). In strictly utilitarian sense, many previous-generation teenagers could have delayed getting a car, and likely would have saved money doing so. But having a car was a social thing, especially for a male teenager. Not any more.

I spotted this trend years ago -- iPhone replaced car as teenage status symbol. I also noticed that when I mention it to men my own age, they say dismissively "You can't have sex on an iPhone!" To which I respond: "How many times did you actually have sex in a car?" With some shock they realize -- never or almost never. The myth of a car as the place for nookie is just a myth -- or has been for at least 40 years. In suburbia it is very easy to find a place for nookie, whether you have a car or not. Social value of a car was mostly in taking one (and one's date) to interesting places. Smartphone and internet bring interesting places to you.

Dozens of times.

And this was in the '80's. Believe me, getting laid in a car is no "myth". Getting laid in a modern car might be a myth, but a 1971 Buick Skylark is like an apartment on wheels.

[The Mutha]

We live in Houston, TX where it's not usually practical to take public transportation. My daughter, The Dolly, got her learner's permit at 15 and her full license at 16. Most of her immediate circle of friends got their licenses before 18 as well. However, she does have a few friends who haven't bothered, either because of the no money for a car factor or because they have plenty of friends who do drive and therefore feel no need as yet to learn. I've actually been amazed at the number of women in The Dolly's age group who don't drive. They rely on their boyfriend/husband/relatives to drive them anywhere they need to go.

My 19 year old nephew has his learner's permit, but isn't pursuing the training much. He just doesn't see the need right now, but my sister is pushing the issue because he's off to college in August and she's not going to be available to take him and pick him up. Cullen's not all that keen to be in charge of a ton of potential death machine, and he has a tendency not to be really observant, so curbs and such jump out at him at inopportune moments.

My sister didn't get her license until she was 21 due to the fact that I was driving at 13 and took her everywhere, so she never really had to learn - until we went to different colleges. Sister is one of those artistic types that doesn't do so well behind the wheel of a car. She's really non-observant, startles easily and is just better off not being in charge of a large piece of machinery.

If you live in an area where a car is not a necessity, that's great, but in this area, it can keep you from getting a job. When I was first starting out in my career, most job applications asked if you had reliable transportation and back then, the bus wasn't considered a correct answer. It might be now for all I know.

I have used public transportation such as the years that I worked downtown, I drove to the Park 'N Ride and took the bus from there. My main issue with driving is that I have too many control issues to be comfortable with not having a car or a driver's license.

[jdp]

I thought public transport in the USA was so terrible everybody had to drive?

Rolfe.

This depends a lot on where you live. Many of the larger cities have decent public transportation options, New York (of course), Philadelphia, and DC for example. In DC, for example, in addition to the traditional buses and subway lines, there are now bike and car sharing services (which are available in other cities too). Also a number of intercity bus services have sprung up in recent years.

[Craig4]

This depends a lot on where you live. Many of the larger cities have decent public transportation options, New York (of course), Philadelphia, and DC for example. In DC, for example, in addition to the traditional buses and subway lines, there are now bike and car sharing services (which are available in other cities too). Also a number of intercity bus services have sprung up in recent years.

Yeah. Portland Oregon has a great public transport system. Just watch the show Grimm sometime and notice all the trains that keep the main character from shooting the monster as it runs away.

[Bikewer]

Seems to me entirely dependent on where you live, work, and what the transportation sector is like.
When I was a kid in the 50s, my dad worked blocks from the house and simply walked. My mom's part-time job was likewise blocks away.
All the services we needed likewise. Grocery store? Across the street. Bakery? one block up. Pharmacy? Two blocks up. Doctor? across from the pharmacy. School? 3/4 of a mile. etc, etc.
If we wanted to go "Downtown", to the big department stores, the bus ran right by the house or one might grab a "service car", a sort of fixed-route taxi.
We didn't have a car till I graduated from high school... One of dad's buddies literally gave him one.

Now.... I would say the average commute here in the St. Louis area is 10 to 20 miles, with many people living further out in the suburbs and commuting 40 miles or more each way.

For the most part, cycle routes are a work in progress. I have never had a safe route to my job. The public transportation sector is.... Pretty bad. Buses are slow, irregular, and often inhabited by folks many riders find scary. The Metrolink is very nice, if you are so fortunate as to work or live near a station....
But routes are extremely limited and every proposed expansion is fought tooth and nail over costs.
Suburban development tends to be groups of tract homes in a subdivision which is built increasingly far out... With modern highways to connect to strip-mall complexes. These are not friendly to either pedestrian traffic or cycling.
Let's face it, much of America's layout and infrastructure was specifically geared to the burgeoning motor vehicle industry. Cheap cars, cheap gas... Move out of the congested cities and live in suburban comfort.

[kookbreaker]

I'm 45. I was raised right in downtown Philly so I could walk, bike or bus to most places I needed to go. I didn't get my license until I was 21 or so. Rarely drove after that since I hated the clutch on my parents Corolla.

Then I started work for the museum. I was on the floor at first so no biggie. But then I got a promotion to outreach and that meant driving about 200+ miles a day, 4 days out of 5. My skills improved quickly. I never owned my own car until I left the museum some 9 years later.

[Seismosaurus]

Did you lose your job because you were tired all the time (because you had sleep apnea) or a direct result of sleep apnea?
The former. I was tired, I had no energy, and my job performance suffered because of it. I'm somewhat doctor phobic, and kept telling myself I was just getting older and slowing down. I finally went to my GP a couple weeks before I left my job (after I started falling asleep whilst driving on a motorway and almost killed myself and my father), and was officially diagnosed a few weeks after.

When they gave me a CPAP machine they asked me to lie down and try the mask out; I fell asleep instantly. They had to wake me up to send me home! When I woke up the following morning the difference was incredible - I felt about ten years younger, and not tired for the first time in a very long time.

[Cainkane1]

http://news.yahoo.com/americas-generation-y-not-driven-drive-145632280--sector.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - To Shoshana Gurian-Sherman, driving seemed like a huge hassle.
Breach of rule 4 removed. Do not copy and paste entire articles from elsewhere.
One reason the Y generation has an aversion to driving is the cost of gas. In my day when $5.00 filled the average small cars tank it was no problem. If I could do nothing else I could go for a ride. Not so anymore. Driving for the first time is also scary for many young people.

[Darat]

What caught my eye was the "...She eventually got her license at 18, two years later than she could have..." - wow - I mean she didn't get her licence for 2 whole years, that has to be significant! :rolleyes:

[Kestrel]

In my family the person sitting in the front passenger seat was expected to be a copilot, even if they were just a kid. Warning the driver of potential problems and acting as a navigator in unfamiliar territory. Helping the driver stay awake and alert on long trips. At the gas station, we pumped the gas, cleaned the windows and checked the tire pressure. We were familiar with many of the skills required to drive safely long before we got our own license.

Young people today have spent most of their life riding in the back seat of vehicles, often watching a video screen. In some places, it's against the law to let the kid ride shotgun. They haven't been reading road signs and maps. They have no clue how their parents found their way across town to the airport. They don't know what highway goes to grandma's house or what exit to take. Getting somewhere has been an entirely passive experience. No wonder they find driving scary.

[geni]

Young people today have spent most of their life riding in the back seat of vehicles, often watching a video screen. In some places, it's against the law to let the kid ride shotgun. They haven't been reading road signs and maps. They have no clue how their parents found their way across town to the airport. They don't know what highway goes to grandma's house or what exit to take. Getting somewhere has been an entirely passive experience. No wonder they find driving scary.

We have GPS.

[Garrette]

What caught my eye was the "...She eventually got her license at 18, two years later than she could have..." - wow - I mean she didn't get her licence for 2 whole years, that has to be significant! :rolleyes:Those two years represent a significant cultural change even if not a practical one. It wasn't that long ago when, as has been said, getting a driver's license was not only a rite of passage but one that was greatly desired. Teens, especially males, in the U.S. at least*, longed for the day they got to drive especially to drive alone without a parent. It wasn't much longer before that when it was common for parents to let their younger children, (again, especially males), drive before they officially got their license; this was especially true in the rural areas and on farms. Boys delighted in that.

What I have seen even well before this article is the change not only in the perceived need for a driver's license but in the level of eagerness for it. My oldest son only has a license because his mother and I made him eventually get it. Now he will drive when he needs to but only the bare minimum. My second son, on the other hand, jumped at it and loves to drive. My daughter is in between. Outside my family I have seen a larger percentage of those who not only don't actively seek their license but who actively avoid it.

*I recognize I am speaking broadly. My experience and observations apply primarily to less urban areas, though not entirely rural; I understand they probably do not apply to the large cities with extensive public transportation.

[Kestrel]

We have GPS.

The hard part is training your generation to look out the window instead of just at the screen. :D

[Mark6]

The hard part is training your generation to look out the window instead of just at the screen. :D
What for? Screen has better resolution than window!

:D

[marplots]

The hard part is training your generation to look out the window instead of just at the screen. :D

Car only has five windows, laptop has Windows 7.

[joobie]

i just turned 38 and started studying for the learner's permit test again. i had a string of missing buses but a couple minutes and having to wait some extended period of time. plus asking people for rides just started to get really old. for many years i avoided driving because i had a drinking habit. i'm reasonably sure i would have ended up with DUIs had i been a driver.

i have a car that i can use, so at least i won't have to pay for that. i live 3 blocks from work, so that's not an issue. i will still walk unless it's pouring. it will just come in handy for running errands, etc.

[joobie]

They don't know what highway goes to grandma's house or what exit to take. Getting somewhere has been an entirely passive experience. No wonder they find driving scary.

i am not quite that bad but sometimes it's a serious effort for me to think of directions in terms other than bus routes.

[Eudaemonic Plague]

I learned to drive at 17, and shortly after, I was driving on trips of hundreds of miles. I didn't own a car until I was in my early twenties, just couldn't scrape enough money together.

My son just turned 27, and while he had a learner permit right out of high school, he never seemed interested enough to ask us to let him get some practice in. Earlier this year, we finally got him to get another learner permit. Same story, though. I just need to take the bull by the horns, and drag him out to the street. I can't blame him, though, since he spends most of his life in his room messing with some game console, or his computer. He had bad experiences on the buses (we have a really good bus system), so he avoids them like the plague. He has a bicycle, but hasn't ridden it for years. When he finally does get his license, he'll have free access to a car, since we have three. Maybe he'll start going places then? He'll have a better chance to find a girlfriend, and you'd think that would be enough reason to want to drive.

[Jarlaxle]

Slightly OT, but my biggest complaint about public transportation in the US is not local but national. I occasionally travel many hundreds of miles and am forced to do so by car or plane; since the plane is so much more expensive, I usually drive. I would prefer a train, particularly since my starting point is near a fairly large city and my end point is in a very large city with excellent local public transport.

The problem is that long distance train travel in the US (at least the bit that I have investigated) is inconveniently timed, far too time-consuming, and far too expensive, with hubs in far too few cities. I would have to drive at minimum 100 miles to reach the nearest train hub, and since there are no express routes I would have to plan for a 30 hour trip (one way) at a cost higher than what I would pay in gas to drive.

I find the situation immensely disturbing.

Have you tried a bus? Especially in the Northeast, the service is pretty good.

[Jarlaxle]

So far this thread has been about where/whether people objectively need a car, while OP's article is about whether American teenagers want car as a status symbol (answer -- they almost universally used to, not any more). In strictly utilitarian sense, many previous-generation teenagers could have delayed getting a car, and likely would have saved money doing so. But having a car was a social thing, especially for a male teenager. Not any more.

I spotted this trend years ago -- iPhone replaced car as teenage status symbol. I also noticed that when I mention it to men my own age, they say dismissively "You can't have sex on an iPhone!" To which I respond: "How many times did you actually have sex in a car?" With some shock they realize -- never or almost never. The myth of a car as the place for nookie is just a myth -- or has been for at least 40 years. In suburbia it is very easy to find a place for nookie, whether you have a car or not. Social value of a car was mostly in taking one (and one's date) to interesting places. Smartphone and internet bring interesting places to you.

Sex in a car? A few times. Used a car to get somewhere to get it on? A bunch more times!

[Jarlaxle]

What caught my eye was the "...She eventually got her license at 18, two years later than she could have..." - wow - I mean she didn't get her licence for 2 whole years, that has to be significant! :rolleyes:

Considering that many used to get their licence within a week of eligibility (I was the exception...mine was two weeks after my 16th birthday due to the holidays) and the hope was always getting a slot to take the road test ON your birthday, that IS significant!

[The Dark Lord]

Considering that many used to get their licence within a week of eligibility (I was the exception...mine was two weeks after my 16th birthday due to the holidays) and the hope was always getting a slot to take the road test ON your birthday, that IS significant!

I took the road test on my 16th birthday. Hit a cone on the three point turn and failed. Took it a couple days later and passed.

[Garrette]

Have you tried a bus? Especially in the Northeast, the service is pretty good.Ayup. Cheaper and somewhat faster but not cheaper nor faster enough.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I took the road test on my 16th birthday. Hit a cone on the three point turn and failed. Took it a couple days later and passed.

Heh, one thing that surprised me about the drivers education and testing I had was the complete lack of cones. They just said "Drive onto Green Street..." and I'm like "Hold up, where are the cones and cardboard grannies?" The movies lied to me.

[Jorghnassen]

I got my license at 18, then went to university in a big city with good public transit and no place to park. Didn't have a car or the need for one, so I barely drove until I finished my PhD. I even managed to survive a semester of postdoc in Waterloo, Ontario without a car, then my girlfriend found a job in the "neighborhood" (i.e. 20 km away in one of those little towns in the vast farmlands around KW) so we had to get one. I still only drove occasionally. Now I live in suburbia, and I practically need a car (well, I could still get by with only public transit but it would bring down my quality of life), but I only drive when absolutely necessary, so I haven't filled up the tank in 6 months.

My younger brother finally got his license a couple of years ago (at 28) when he got a job in the suburbs, after living in the city for years. My older brother failed his first driving exam and never bothered to take it again (moved to a city for college, then to England for grad school, never bothered to learn to drive on the wrong side of the road, besides, his wife got her license after like a dozen attempts, which apparently is common in the UK... in North America, failing the practice twice is exceedingly rare, and more than that practically unheard of). Still, I know a number of people without a license in their late 20s or even 30s. My cousin and his wife are a glaring example. At least one person in a couple should know how to drive, even when they don't have a car. Especially when you have kids.

[crimresearch]

So far this thread has been about where/whether people objectively need a car, while OP's article is about whether American teenagers want car as a status symbol (answer -- they almost universally used to, not any more). In strictly utilitarian sense, many previous-generation teenagers could have delayed getting a car, and likely would have saved money doing so. But having a car was a social thing, especially for a male teenager. Not any more.

I spotted this trend years ago -- iPhone replaced car as teenage status symbol. I also noticed that when I mention it to men my own age, they say dismissively "You can't have sex on an iPhone!" To which I respond: "How many times did you actually have sex in a car?" With some shock they realize -- never or almost never. The myth of a car as the place for nookie is just a myth -- or has been for at least 40 years. In suburbia it is very easy to find a place for nookie, whether you have a car or not. Social value of a car was mostly in taking one (and one's date) to interesting places. Smartphone and internet bring interesting places to you.
You are asking the wrong people then.

[J_E_R]

Time is money. No way I would add another hour and a half onto my work day to allow for a bus ride.

[Finn McR]

[QUOTE=Rolfe;8416926]I'd had it with public transport by the time I was 25. I bought a motorbike.

I passed my driving test when I was 18 and it was handy to be able to borrow my Dad's car sometimes, but no way could I have afforded one of my own. I went on travelling by train and bus and bicycle. But being able to drive at all, even in a borrowed car, was really handy. Having the motorbike was an absolute liberation.

I finally bought my first car when I was 32. I was so proud of it. I'm now on my 4th car, and I see no prospect of giving up unless my eyesight or reflexes pack it in. Even when they finally give me my free bus pass.

I thought public transport in the USA was so terrible everybody had to drive?

So you have never compared a map of the USA at the same scale to a map of Europe?? Try it some time and look at the distances involved. The USA has great public transit. It is generally restricted to cities with high population density. There is a lot of space here and it is not economically feasible to have extensive mass transit. The high population density cities have it, the lower density suburban and country parts don't. Look at a population density map before you write stupid things.

This kind of claim annoys me, much as the claim that the USA has a racism problem. Look at you own selves with un-blinkered eyes. Try being a "second generation Turk" in Germany for example.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

But even comparing just major cities has Europe ahead in public transit and non-automobile traffic. In America the big influences have been increasing parking spaces and decreasing congestion through light synchronisation. In Europe there are taxes for congestion, streets with no cars allowed or complete right of way for everyone around cars, low caps on parking spaces, and a variety of other pro-alternate transit policies. Some have crazy biking levels (from an American perspective).

But like I said, I don't know about the suburban/rural public transit in Europe to do a comparison there, so it might be better, worse, or the same as the US.

[The Don]

Seems to me entirely dependent on where you live, work, and what the transportation sector is like.
When I was a kid in the 50s, my dad worked blocks from the house and simply walked. My mom's part-time job was likewise blocks away.
All the services we needed likewise. Grocery store? Across the street. Bakery? one block up. Pharmacy? Two blocks up. Doctor? across from the pharmacy. School? 3/4 of a mile. etc, etc.
If we wanted to go "Downtown", to the big department stores, the bus ran right by the house or one might grab a "service car", a sort of fixed-route taxi.
We didn't have a car till I graduated from high school... One of dad's buddies literally gave him one.

Now.... I would say the average commute here in the St. Louis area is 10 to 20 miles, with many people living further out in the suburbs and commuting 40 miles or more each way.

For the most part, cycle routes are a work in progress. I have never had a safe route to my job. The public transportation sector is.... Pretty bad. Buses are slow, irregular, and often inhabited by folks many riders find scary. The Metrolink is very nice, if you are so fortunate as to work or live near a station....
But routes are extremely limited and every proposed expansion is fought tooth and nail over costs.
Suburban development tends to be groups of tract homes in a subdivision which is built increasingly far out... With modern highways to connect to strip-mall complexes. These are not friendly to either pedestrian traffic or cycling.
Let's face it, much of America's layout and infrastructure was specifically geared to the burgeoning motor vehicle industry. Cheap cars, cheap gas... Move out of the congested cities and live in suburban comfort.

^ Mostly this

Travel has become so relatively cheap (or we're willing to pay for it) or people are so tied to where they live (either because they don't want to move or can't afford to do so) that they'll routinely travel relatively long distances daily.

As I drove the 45 miles daily to Swindon from Bristol, there were hundreds making the same journey and hundreds going in the opposite direction. If travel were orders of magnitude more expensive they we would have moved to Swindon or I would have taken a less good job in Bristol. A friend of mine has done exactly this, taken a less well paying job closer to home so that he can commute to work by bicycle (which has allowed him to lose 20kg in weight which helps him manage his diabetes) and spend more time with his family. As a result, the family only needs 1 car and increasingly they are thinking of getting rid of that one.

They live in a city so that all the services they require are within walking distance.

[Rat]

So you have never compared a map of the USA at the same scale to a map of Europe?? Try it some time and look at the distances involved. The USA has great public transit. It is generally restricted to cities with high population density. There is a lot of space here and it is not economically feasible to have extensive mass transit. The high population density cities have it, the lower density suburban and country parts don't. Look at a population density map before you write stupid things.

This kind of claim annoys me, much as the claim that the USA has a racism problem. Look at you own selves with un-blinkered eyes. Try being a "second generation Turk" in Germany for example.
Yes, and even in the UK (or 'Europe' if you prefer) there are many places where you are too remote for public transport to be a practical option. I'm fairly confident that Rolfe knows this at least as well as most, knowing the area where she lives. That's why the sentence was 'everybody has to drive', and I'm fairly sure that even then it was at least partly a joke.

And where did the racism thing come from?

[dirtywick]

I think law enforcement may have something to do with it as well. In the 70's and 80's, I'm told, police didn't bother much with underage smoking, drinking, truancy, curfew, illicit drug use, etc. That changed quite a bit, and with it fines that if left unpaid would prevent a teen from being eligible from getting a license.

Check this out:

http://www4.uwm.edu/eti/dot.htm

[Modified]

Dozens of times.

And this was in the '80's. Believe me, getting laid in a car is no "myth". Getting laid in a modern car might be a myth, but a 1971 Buick Skylark is like an apartment on wheels.

Hundreds of times. Almost every night for two years. Where else are 16/17-year-olds going to go? I started with a 1977 Delta 88 with a nice bench seat in the front - no need to move to the back.

[WildCat]

Adverse - Adjective: Preventing success or development; harmful; unfavorable: "adverse weather conditions"

Averse - Adjective: Having a strong dislike of or opposition to something


I assume you all mean averse rather than adverse? :)
Gen Y is also averse to spelling.

[Mark6]

Hundreds of times. Almost every night for two years. Where else are 16/17-year-olds going to go?
Woods in the back yard. My parents' basement. When they were out, my bedroom.

Aside from long trips in a van when I was quite a bit older (and lived on my own), I think I had sex in a car only once.

[Ranb]

Social value of a car was mostly in taking one (and one's date) to interesting places. Smartphone and internet bring interesting places to you.

Having been to places like Thailand, Hong Kong, Germany etc, I find that using the internet to bring places to me is rather lame compared to actually being there. But using the internet to meet people in exotic places then going to see them (on a plane in this case) is very nice. :)

Ranb

[Ranb]

I bought an old Corolla when I was 16 just so I would not have to depend on my parents for a ride or use their car. Drove it to work and school. While there was a school bus, there was no other public transportation in the rural northern MN town I was raised in.

Everyone I knew got their license at 16, it would have been strange not to. There were also the lucky 15 year olds who were able to get a farmer's license so they could drive an implement of husbandry (tractor, pickup truck) on the roads. Never considered sex in my Corolla, not enough interior room. :)

Ranb

[scratchy]

Ive enjoyed the freedom of being motorized one way or other since i was about twelve-thirteen years old. Still do, by car, motorcycle and mighty thirsty motorboat. But he last few years i have also started bicycling, mainly to work, about an hour a day, summer and winter. I really enjoy it, and feel a lot healthier from it. I have reached an age when getting that extra exercise makes a huge difference in well being.

[Howie Felterbush]

Hundreds of times. Almost every night for two years. Where else are 16/17-year-olds going to go? I started with a 1977 Delta 88 with a nice bench seat in the front - no need to move to the back.

We never got in the back seat of the Buick, either.

That's where the cooler was.

[joobie]

on wednesday i got my learner's permit for the first time. yay me.

[Delvo]

I just remembered that traffic is worse now than it was a generation ago, so traffic problems are now a larger part of the driving (or riding) experience...

[swright777]

Do countries other than the USA have separate buses for public transportation and school children? My German prof. said that in Germany the school kids use public transportation. I'm not sure if that's correct, and I had these classes about 20 years ago. :)

If the USA combined the two there would be thousands more bus routes available. Maybe 10s or 100s of thousands more.

[Manopolus]

Could this be also due to the further urbanization of the youth? Out here where I live, a car is necessary to even get to a decent grocery store -- unless you'd rather WALK 14 miles. It's quite a trip even on a bike.

The bigger the city you live in, the less likely you need a vehicle to get around.

It's not that rural areas are declining, really.... we're just not growing... in a growing population, that means losing percentage points. Also, there's more kids that leave home at 18 and return sometime in their 30s than there are that actually stay here.

[Miss_Kitt]

On the post above about school bus versus regular buses: Each school district provides its own bus transportation outside a certain radius from the school. It used to be a fair number of kids biked to school, but these days many schools actively **discourage* it. The issue seems to be that the school district does not want to be held liable if a child is abducted, gets lost, gets hurt or killed, on their way to or from school.

Major schools--like high schools and colleges--generally have commercial bus routes that support them; but the school bus routes are usually very short compared to commercial runs, and don't go anywhere anyone would need a bus to commute. They are circuitous and have many stops. The principle is, no student needs to travel more than X.Y miles to a bus stop for their school (and I'm pretty sure x generally equals zero). Trying to replace that level of service with a commercial route would be difficult indeed!

But most importantly, the entities that fund, staff, and manage the commercial or paid-public bus service are completely separate from the school districts, and do not have anything like comparable borders.

Again, for my European friends, we're way spread out here. My junior high school (grades 7 - 9) was only 5 miles from my family's house; but the bus went as far as 7 miles away for some students. Further, that's distance as the crow flies, not the twisting, double-back, take this road to that road, country lane driving the route actually took. That was just MY bus, there were other routes that went as far in two of the other compass directions. And we weren't even rural, just semi-rural (some people had pastures behind their homes). The really rural districts have some impressive bus hauls just to reach bus stops within a mile of the family farms...

It's so far not feasible to even service the suburban area with "public" transportation on anything like a reasonable cost basis. What is becoming increasingly common is a 'Park and Ride' parking area (lot or garage) where people can get a bus that connects outlying areas to the urban core (or one of the major suburban centers). So you still need a car even if you're mostly commuting by bus.

Some of this could be dealt with if the bus system was converted to more, shorter local routes with vans or small buses, to take the shopper and local-business employees, but at least in the Seattle area, that's not going to happen because Seattle requires that the major bus routes connect inside the city. This despite repeated studies showing that most commutes are suburb-to-suburb on the Eastside (east of Lake Washington, which Seattle lies west of) due to employers like MicroSoft, Expedia, Nintendo, and multiple Boeing plants.

It's a mess, but the disconnect between the dreams of the political power wielders--who want to see 'sexy' trains and street cars--and the needs of the populace is large.

There is another issue at play here, however, I think. It is my observation that Gen Y is, overall, not as interested in 'growing up' quickly. They tend to refer to each other as "kids" even when in their twenties--something my generation would never have condoned--and they aren't all that anxious to live outside the family circle. I suspect part of this comes from watching the fallout of a couple of economic downturns in their lifetime: They simply don't think that being a self-supporting adult is safe or rewarding. And since their parents often don't charge them rent, or for food, or make them pay their own phone or internet service..why should they leave?

I moved out when I was 19; I could no more have stayed under my parents' roof, even to finish college, then I could have worn diapers. My parents, like most of their generation, believed that if you lived at home, you were one of the children: Subject to the same rules, limitations, need to do chores, lack of privacy, and arbitrary restrictions on clothing, music, etc. as a college student that you were when you were 14. Furthermore, you were free cleaning service, babysitting for the younger siblings, and help doing shopping and other errands. Nor were my folks about to let me use their vehicle for anything personal!

That's not the experience of Gen Y; they have nearly all the benefits of living on their own while living at home, AND they gain the freedom to spend a lot more of their time and money on 'fun stuff' than they would if they were self-supporting. I think the psychological value of being a Grown Adult that attaches to car ownership is actually a negative in some cases. Why take on the expense of insurance, gas, maintenance, paying for parking, etc. when you can have a parent provide you with the essential travel, and do the rest via friend or transit?

Finally, as several have noted, it's just a lot less boring to lack a vehicle now. So many things can be pursued from your own computer (or smart phone) -- right down to hanging out with friends -- that that incentive has faded as well.

Just my thoughts, MK

[The Dark Lord]

Do countries other than the USA have separate buses for public transportation and school children? My German prof. said that in Germany the school kids use public transportation. I'm not sure if that's correct, and I had these classes about 20 years ago. :)

If the USA combined the two there would be thousands more bus routes available. Maybe 10s or 100s of thousands more.

Doesn't seem like a bad idea but would be rather difficult because the school buses are owned by the school district rather than the city.

[Rat]

Do countries other than the USA have separate buses for public transportation and school children?
As far as I'm aware, yes and no. Obviously a lot of kids can walk to school -- the three schools I attended were about 200 yards, 0.75 miles, and 1 mile from home. These days an awful lot of children get driven to school by their parents, which I don't like but can understand. It does mean that driving anywhere near a school at certain times is a nightmare, since the schools don't have parking facilities so the parents all just park on all the surrounding roads.

Kids that live a certain distance from their school are (I believe) entitled to free transport, but this often just means bus passes for normal public transport. Again, this can be a nightmare if you're on a bus that the kids use. My better half, living in Chinley and travelling to school in Manchester, used to just get the train to Manchester and then get a bus from the station, but as that was a private school it would be at parents' expense.

[Wuglife]

I am a young person (mid 20's) and I don't like cars much. I own one out of necessity, and because I don't currently own a motorcycle nor live in a climate where I can motorcycle year-round.

I started bicycling at 16, and motorcycling at 17. I have a car learner's permit, and I eventually plan on getting my driver's license; I do own a car, but I can't use it for the driver test because it doesn't have a hand brake.

Also, I think fuel prices are one of the factors in play for the reduction of popularity in cars among young people. Another is the global financial crisis; cars cost a LOT. I also think cycling is becoming somewhat more popular than it was a few years ago. I have zero data to back this up; I just see a lot of cyclists these days.

[Mark6]

Dozens of times.

And this was in the '80's. Believe me, getting laid in a car is no "myth". Getting laid in a modern car might be a myth, but a 1971 Buick Skylark is like an apartment on wheels.
In a supreme irony, last night I had sex in the back seat of a sedan -- for the first time. (The one time I mentioned earlier was in a front seat.) The irony is: teenagers do it to get around their parents. We did it to get around kids -- too long to explain why no more comfortable solution was available.

Well, "Two middle-aged people in the back of a Camry" will not be in Kama Sutra any time soon. My right knee still hurts.

[Ladewig]

Not at all - or at least, not everywhere. I didn't get a liscence until I turned 22, and most of my neighborhood friends in Boston waited even longer than that. The bus/subway system there is both far cheaper than driving, and far less stressful. The only real exceptions were some Sunday bus routes, and late nights (after 2am), when the system was shut down for a few hours. New York City is pretty similar, and driving in DC is just awful.

When I moved to DC in the 1990s, traffic in Georgetown was so bad that they would assign traffic cops to specific corners and when someone made an illegal turn on red, the cop didn't need a car or bike to catch him. The cop would just walk along the bumper-to-bumper traffic and write the ticket without even having the violator pull over to the curb.

[Kahalachan]

Woah that's cool cause I don't like to drive either. I thought I was the odd one out. I didn't realize much of my generation also didn't like to drive.

[Toontown]

I'm 63, retired last year and shortly thereafter was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and high cholesterol. I had moved to a location near the center of a city. Needed exercise, didn't need a car. Sold the car. Got the exercise. Went on a strict diet. Lost 44 lb, suppressed the diabetes, brought the cholesterol down to optimum. Now I ride a bicycle and occasionally use the metro buses.

The car didn't have much resale value, but was paid off. Still, I'm saving $130 per month in parking and insurance. The savings alone is more than enough to rent a car occasionally if I want to go out of town.

I'm not a hard core bicyclist. I've only had the bike for a few months. But I can handle heat, go as far as I need to go, and carry a load. Recently I was returning home with my bicycle and a back pack and saddlebags full of groceries. A neighbor took notice of the packs and the bicycle, a stoutly built Schwinn 7 speed cruiser with 28" wheels and a strong rear rack. He commented, "That's not a bicycle, that's a truck!". No biggie. I used to ride a bike for recreation when I was 44 lb heavier. Now me, the bike, and a load of groceries combined weighs not much more than my body alone used to weigh.

I knew leaving the car culture was a lifestyle change. It wasn't forced on me. I chose it. I was looking for a change and a challenge. It didn't turn out to be that much of a challenge. Riding a bicycle is not difficult for me. I enjoy it. The health benefits are great. Riding a metro bus instead of fighting traffic is cool, comfortable, relaxing. And who would complain about riding an Amtrak train across scenic countryside you can't see from the highways?

People make comments when they see me out riding a bike in the 105+ heat. "It's too hot to be riding a bike!", they say. They don't seem to know it's much easier than walking, and the added speed gives you a nice cooling breeze, and you get acclimated to the heat. The small amount I sweat evaporates in the breeze. My clothes don't get damp unless it's very hot and I ride a long distance. But you do need leg strength. It is difficult when you first start riding, and don't have the legs.

My state has been slow to develop bicycle routes, but it's coming along. Bike lanes have begun to appear on the streets. Several dedicated bicycle paths had been built years earlier, but they don't really go anywhere I specifically need to go, and they're not connected. The legislature passed a bill to create a bike lane across the state along historic route 66, which, when completed, will be the final piece in a continuous bike route reaching from Chicago to Los Angeles. There will also be a route traversing the state north-south. I already have reasonable access to much of the state via a combination of Amtrak and bicycle on paved rural roads and lightly travelled secondary highways. I can plan routes using Google Earth, and get photographic ground level views of streets in all the cities and towns, and even rural roads in some areas.

Life is tolerable. I don't hate it.:D

[Finn McR]

Yes, and even in the UK (or 'Europe' if you prefer) there are many places where you are too remote for public transport to be a practical option. I'm fairly confident that Rolfe knows this at least as well as most, knowing the area where she lives. That's why the sentence was 'everybody has to drive', and I'm fairly sure that even then it was at least partly a joke.

And where did the racism thing come from?

It came from being what I would call a, "framing" issue. That is, a general statement that then goes on to color all subsequent consideration and commentary on a specific issue not necessarily related to the general statement.

I would agree to the general statement that European countries have better mass-transit that the USA. ...As long as a proviso about population density was factored in. ... Maybe I'm wrong, but take the example that I have close family that live 370 miles (590 km) away, a 6-hour drive by car at uninterrupted highway speeds. There are not rail links because the path crosses numerous rivers that run from the east coast of the USA to the interior (==$money). Note, we all live, "in the same part of the country." as far as most USA citizens are concerned. No-one that I know considers that they live too far away to visit for the week-end.

Google maps gives me 1,050 km from Paris, France to Berlin, Germany (and estimates about 10 hours but who knows what speeds they use).

So, a) depending on the Google Maps estimated times, it might be more efficient for me to drive from home to my in-laws than to go from Paris to Berlin. And b) if I buy high-octane gas, my fuel costs are about $49.33 one-way if I speed a little bit (wear-and-tear and insurance on the car are negligible in comparison).

For comparison, so that you can complain: AmTrack (train service) runs a train from Washington DC to Orlando, Fl for as little as $256 (a 1,370 km journey of 17 -19 hours, depending on the train). By car, I can make the trip in about 14 hours for a fuel cost of $113. I can add people to the car for much less than adding them to the train.

[Toontown]

According to this analysis,

http://commutesolutions.org/external/calc.html

the average total cost of driving is @ $0.96 per mile. So, if you drive only 10,000 miles per year, it is costing, on average, an appalling $9600 per year merely to drive a car. And this estimate does not include indirect costs.

I'm not done with driving. I plan to buy a new vehicle at some point, but not before reaping the health and financial benefits of using a bicycle for primary transportation. I live near the metro bus station, in an area that is not half bad for riding a bicycle. Every place I need to go is actually within biking distance. The buses are just a convenience. And there is a car rental agency a mile away, and an Amtrak station a couple of miles away. The buses and trains have bicycle racks. The shot is there. I'm taking it.

[joobie]

i just got my driver's license. it should cut my commute to work at least in half. and at the same time, i am finding it difficult to putting in the effort to practice driving to the point where i am willing to drive to work (the car i have access to is a manual transmission, and ik don't want to learn to drive one when i need to be somewhere).

[schplurg]

......

There is another issue at play here, however, I think. It is my observation that Gen Y is, overall, not as interested in 'growing up' quickly. They tend to refer to each other as "kids" even when in their twenties--something my generation would never have condoned--and they aren't all that anxious to live outside the family circle. I suspect part of this comes from watching the fallout of a couple of economic downturns in their lifetime: They simply don't think that being a self-supporting adult is safe or rewarding. And since their parents often don't charge them rent, or for food, or make them pay their own phone or internet service..why should they leave?

I moved out when I was 19; I could no more have stayed under my parents' roof, even to finish college, then I could have worn diapers. My parents, like most of their generation, believed that if you lived at home, you were one of the children: Subject to the same rules, limitations, need to do chores, lack of privacy, and arbitrary restrictions on clothing, music, etc. as a college student that you were when you were 14. Furthermore, you were free cleaning service, babysitting for the younger siblings, and help doing shopping and other errands. Nor were my folks about to let me use their vehicle for anything personal!

That's not the experience of Gen Y; they have nearly all the benefits of living on their own while living at home, AND they gain the freedom to spend a lot more of their time and money on 'fun stuff' than they would if they were self-supporting. I think the psychological value of being a Grown Adult that attaches to car ownership is actually a negative in some cases. Why take on the expense of insurance, gas, maintenance, paying for parking, etc. when you can have a parent provide you with the essential travel, and do the rest via friend or transit?

Finally, as several have noted, it's just a lot less boring to lack a vehicle now. So many things can be pursued from your own computer (or smart phone) -- right down to hanging out with friends -- that that incentive has faded as well.

Just my thoughts, MK

Excellent post. All bolding mine.

I disagree though, for the most part, with this first sentence, and I agree entirely with the second:

They simply don't think that being a self-supporting adult is safe or rewarding. And since their parents often don't charge them rent, or for food, or make them pay their own phone or internet service..why should they leave?I noticed about 10 years ago that a lot of kids weren't getting licenses (in my area of the US). A lot of kids don't want to leave the house as adults either. A lot of kids don't want jobs and have no concept of working towards something.

I think many parents have become wimps, and their children are following in their footsteps. The politically correct movement (what else?) seems to have created a lot of parents who are afraid to punish their kids, make them work, get out of the house. In fact many parents won't let their kids go outside without supervision. It seemed like I was always on my bike when I was a kid, all day, with my friends. We liked the freedom.

Hey Mom, nobody wants to kidnap your bratty 12 year old! Let him go outside and play!

I don't see many kids outside riding bikes, playing football, mowing lawns, or doing other chores. I don't see kids outside at all much really, even when I drive by a school! It seems these days that being "social" means logging into Facebook, rather than meeting your friends somewhere in person. Getting out of the house. I haven't seen a kid outside their house doing chores, pulling weeds, in years! The scary part is that they were born into this - they have no concept of what life is like without cell phones and Facebook. Creeps me out.

I see people in their early twenties sitting on the side of the road (San Jose, CA) with a sign, asking for money. "Please Help". Hey kid, here are a few job applications, now go home and slap your parents. And don't say there aren't any jobs, I know a woman who has three, but guess what? She's from the Philippines and wasn't ruined by our culture of laziness. She wants to work!

I'm so glad I was a kid back 30 years ago rather than now. My Dad taught me how to use tools, build things, install a sprinkler system. I do a lot of my own work thanks to him. I'm a computer geek as well. Kids today? "No Timmy, you hold this end of the hammer!" Ahh I'm just frustrated.

Why don't kids want to leave home? Because their parents have coddled their little babies into adults who don't want to grow up. You'll find some of these people at the parks wearing Occupy T-shirts. At least they're outside!

*Disclaimer...I wan't a perfect kid, I was a troublemaker, lazy, hated chores, thought my Dad was a jerk. It was only later that I realized how important all of this was. My Dad pushed me and I finally "got it". I don't blame the kids, I blame the parents.

[joobie]

so now that i have learned to drive, i am learning to drive a manual transmission.

i understand why someone else might want to drive one, but to be honeat it's a giant pain in the ass.

[Rat]

so now that i have learned to drive, i am learning to drive a manual transmission.

i understand why someone else might want to drive one, but to be honeat it's a giant pain in the ass.
As I think has already been said, if you're going to drive predominantly in town traffic, then yes, it is a pain. I still wouldn't be without it.

For the last two weeks, I have been by necessity learning to drive on the wrong side of the road. That part was easy. Going the wrong way around roundabouts, which I though would be tricky, was also easy, since the lane that feeds you onto it puts you in the right place. Took me a while to get used to looking in the wrong direction when entering a roundabout, though, and nearly came a cropper a couple of times because of it. Also couldn't get the hang of looking in the wrong direction when crossing the road, and was accidentally killed a couple of times because of that. I got better.

[Pantaz]

According to this analysis,

http://commutesolutions.org/external/calc.html

the average total cost of driving is @ $0.96 per mile. So, if you drive only 10,000 miles per year, it is costing, on average, an appalling $9600 per year merely to drive a car. And this estimate does not include indirect costs. ... [Bold, mine]

From what I can see, that calculator includes a great many indirect costs. For example, "Road Noise (property value decrease and abatement)" @ 1.1 cents per mile; "Barrier Effects on Pedestrians and Bicycles" @ 1.4 cents/mile; "Land Use Impact Costs" @ 6.6 cents/mile. Looks like some pretty significant assumptions.

[gumboot]

I owned a car before I had a driver's license, and have always owned one ever since. I would hate to not own a car. Apart from the necessity of having one for my work, there is the freedom that owning a car gives you, that no other form of transport really offers. It would simply be impossible for me to have the lifestyle I have without a car.

[P.J. Denyer]

Motorbike since sixteen (youngest you can take a 50cc on the road in the UK), didn't start to drive a car until I was nearly thirty, that only lasted 5 years and I've been back on bikes ever since but I've always needed my own transport to get to work as I've never lived in a major metropolitan area.

My current situation is extreme but not atypical of normal, by motorbike my commute takes 45min-1hr, by car 45min-1 1/2hrs, by public transport I would need to leave 3 hours before I'm due to start work according to a public transport route finder I just tried (interestingly a 2hr 10min estimated route is avaliable during office hours and one of the options it gave me was to commute the previous day and wait!) as my commute is almost exactly 30miles, that is not a good average speed!

[Rat]

My current situation is extreme but not atypical of normal, by motorbike my commute takes 45min-1hr, by car 45min-1 1/2hrs, by public transport I would need to leave 3 hours before I'm due to start work according to a public transport route finder I just tried (interestingly a 2hr 10min estimated route is avaliable during office hours and one of the options it gave me was to commute the previous day and wait!) as my commute is almost exactly 30miles, that is not a good average speed!
My drive to work takes between about 7 and 20 minutes, depending on how lucky I am with traffic and lights. I can walk it in about 35 or 40, but I'm fat and lazy. When I was 17 or so, my commute from one suburb of Leicester took more like 90 minutes, with a bus into Leicester, then a bus back out of Leicester, then a walk of about a mile. Whether you can get somewhere quickly by public transport really seems to be largely a matter of pot luck.

[Babbylonian]

Whether you can get somewhere quickly by public transport really seems to be largely a matter of pot luck.
I doubt that's any more true in the UK than it is in the US. Unless you have no control over where you live and where you look for work, it can't be about luck. While I recognize that such choices might be limited by specific circumstances, in the "free world" we tend to have the ability to alter those circumstances and evaluate the pros and cons of doing so.

[Rat]

I doubt that's any more true in the UK than it is in the US. Unless you have no control over where you live and where you look for work, it can't be about luck. While I recognize that such choices might be limited by specific circumstances, in the "free world" we tend to have the ability to alter those circumstances and evaluate the pros and cons of doing so.
I should perhaps have said "whether you can get to a given place...." Still might be true for the US too; I don't know. Of all the suburbs of this city, some I can get to easily, some are trickier, and some I would be quicker walking. It depends on the bus routes mainly, i.e. whether I can get straight there, or whether I have to go into town and back out.

[carlitos]

Do countries other than the USA have separate buses for public transportation and school children? My German prof. said that in Germany the school kids use public transportation. I'm not sure if that's correct, and I had these classes about 20 years ago. :)

If the USA combined the two there would be thousands more bus routes available. Maybe 10s or 100s of thousands more.
In Chicago, the public school kids take city buses. I'm not sure it results in thousands more routes, but there is probably increased service during school start and stop times.


For the last two weeks, I have been by necessity learning to drive on the wrong side of the road. That part was easy. Going the wrong way around roundabouts, which I though would be tricky, was also easy, since the lane that feeds you onto it puts you in the right place. Took me a while to get used to looking in the wrong direction when entering a roundabout, though, and nearly came a cropper a couple of times because of it. Also couldn't get the hang of looking in the wrong direction when crossing the road, and was accidentally killed a couple of times because of that. I got better.

When I did the opposite (learning to drive in the UK), parking lots were what almost killed me. Your instincts are 180 degrees wrong. A few near misses when both I and the car approaching swerved the same way. Made visits to Ikea more of a challenge than necessary. And petrol stations too.

[Babbylonian]

I should perhaps have said "whether you can get to a given place...." Still might be true for the US too; I don't know. Of all the suburbs of this city, some I can get to easily, some are trickier, and some I would be quicker walking. It depends on the bus routes mainly, i.e. whether I can get straight there, or whether I have to go into town and back out.
Fair enough, and yes that's true in the US, perhaps more so with a lot more cars on the roads. :D

[P.J. Denyer]

My drive to work takes between about 7 and 20 minutes, depending on how lucky I am with traffic and lights. I can walk it in about 35 or 40, but I'm fat and lazy. When I was 17 or so, my commute from one suburb of Leicester took more like 90 minutes, with a bus into Leicester, then a bus back out of Leicester, then a walk of about a mile. Whether you can get somewhere quickly by public transport really seems to be largely a matter of pot luck.

I took my current job in a large part because it was a 20 minute commute door to door, straight down the motorway. I even cited travel as the reason i was leaving my old job. I'd been there less than a year when the office was moved... :mad:

I have a couple of American colleagues who've moved over here in the last couple of years and they both think that commuting generally is worse here than the US, I think one issue is that there is less civil planning here as villages, towns and cities have evolved over a far greater time period (some of our road routes date back to Roman or Pre-Roman times at the most extreme). Town planning tends to be more 'we have a little space we can squeeze X into' or 'we can knock down X and build Y' than long term planning and expanding with business and residential districts. Obviously that's a luxury that not all towns and cities in the US have either but on average there's more room for expansion over there.

[joobie]

i seem to have become horribly judgmental about other people's driving. also, any time i start to enjoy driving some moron does something like tailgates me or cuts me off. ugh. it does beat taking the bus to work, though.

[P.J. Denyer]

i seem to have become horribly judgmental about other people's driving. also, any time i start to enjoy driving some moron does something like tailgates me or cuts me off. ugh. it does beat taking the bus to work, though.

Yeah I have too, but then highlights of my last 5 years have included a van pulling out of lane without looking while I was next to it (bike written off), another coming round a blind corner on the wrong side of the road and then trying to claim I was on the wrong side going around the corner that I hadn't even reached when he hit me (fortunately as I was claiming £21.50 for a replacement wing mirror and he was trying to get his van written off and replaced that got thrown out, the fact that his description of events broke the laws of physics helped too), a pedestrian shoulder charging me off my bike inorder to use a loophole to jump the social housing queue (it worked, he got housing I got a metal plate embedded in me) and this-:

cEA8a6wrcvE

(FYI: In the UK so we drive on the left, camera was mounted on right handlebar and yes, I'm on a motorbike)

[P.J. Denyer]

Okay, I don't know how to embed video, it's on my own site here-:

http://www.dilligaf.so/forum/showthread.php?tid=193

[Rat]

Okay, I don't know how to embed video, it's on my own site here-:

http://www.dilligaf.so/forum/showthread.php?tid=193
As far as I can recall, you put yt tags at the start and end (obviously with the slash before the end one), and then just put the video code, in your case cEA8a6wrcvE, between the tags. If I am correct, this will be it.

cEA8a6wrcvE

[P.J. Denyer]

Thanks Rat!

[Jekyll's Guest]

Of course you did. ;)

Down in Madison, WI, it's a point of hipster pride to tell people you don't have a car. Most of the non-car people take the bus or ride vintage, sustainable, shade-grown bicycles.

I don't ride any vehicle that casts a shadow.

[P.J. Denyer]

I don't ride any vehicle that casts a shadow.

Wonderwoman's invisible plane or Hair Bear's motorbike?

[Pantaz]

.. and this-: ...
I had an amazingly similar incident many years ago. Just as I was thinking that I'd maneuvered around the car that was skidding into my lane, it caught my rear wheel. I went down, but I had slowed enough that I basically stepped off the bike as it tipped over. The only damage was my broken shift lever -- I had to ride home stuck in third gear.

[P.J. Denyer]

On that one I got the front end round but the cat hit my leg on the thigh, big heavy bike (VTX1300) but I was breaking so hard that it was barely in contact with the ground at the back. Bit of a bruise but nothing broken and no damage to the bike. What made me maddest though was the car drivers, they didn't know if I was hurt or the bike damaged yet not one of them even paused to ask if I was okay or needed a witness after that.

[Magyar]

I thought public transport in the USA was so terrible everybody had to drive?

Rolfe.

It very much depends on where you live and what your interests are.
When I got my license I was living in California. I surfed. Getting to the beach at 4-5 AM from 30 miles inland carrying a surf board on public transport was not a reality.

Also, I loved going to place, so it was very common for my friends and I to throw all our money on the table and decide how much gas that would buy.
We would then get on PCH and drive. In this way I've traveled from Cabo San Lucas to Port Angeles twice. We camped/slept in the car. Surfed the west coast and lived off of bread, ketchup and bologni. Can't imagine not having the freedom not to be able to go to all those places. Of course the majority of the Y gen I know are totally content to live in their closet in the dark and spend 20 hours on xbox/PS3 and not see anything outside of a few block radius of their house. And they firmly believe they've seen the world because it's available on youtube.

[joobie]

who is the happiest that i drive now?

my dog. we go to the p-a-r-k nearly daily anymore.

:D