Should we stop trying to teach the unteachable?

[corplinx]

Walter E. Williams has a provocative new article. (http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/04/disaster.html)

It hits home to me because I was romantically entangled with an inner city school teacher. Her stories about what went on are simply terrible. Basically you had unteachable students. Most of the teachers at her school spent the day trying to keep the children in their seats. The effect of this is that the students who can learn are held back by the ones who aren't fit to progress due to their home environment.

This of course made me realize that my tax dollars were paying for government schools that are glorifed daycare centers. This is an ugly truth. And worse, capable students at those schools are disadvantaged.

I realize some of you might not be able to relate to this reality but I assure it exists. However, I doubt we will ever have a government brave enough to take on this issue. If you dropped "unteachable" children from government schools, the majority of these students will be black and therefore the move will be seen as racist. No politician has the guts to go near this since his opponents will of course portray it as such.

[jj]

Where will you be without a teacher, Corpse?

[Tony]

We need to ditch the archaic mandatory attendance laws. There is no reason for a kid to be at school when he clearly has no interest or desire to be there.

[Tmy]

Cheese n crackers! (Im cleaning up my language) more school bashing.

How many people make it thru the public system just fine? How many of us had a public school education. The system aint so bad.

I agree that problem students are a problem. But how do you give up on a 10yr old??

I think the alternative school system needs to be used more. If they are trouble, pull them off to the side.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by corplinx
Basically you had unteachable students. Most of the teachers at her school spent the day trying to keep the children in their seats. The effect of this is that the students who can learn are held back by the ones who aren't fit to progress due to their home environment.



They don't seperate these students into ' Special ' classes ?


If they are the majority, then the kids who want to learn need to be seperated...

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by corplinx
...
This of course made me realize that my tax dollars were paying for government schools that are glorifed daycare centers.
...
If you dropped "unteachable" children from government schools, the majority of these students will be black and therefore the move will be seen as racist.
...
Hmmm.

Speaking of our tax dollars, what effect do you suppose this move would have, a few years down the line, on government expenditure of said tax dollars on crime prosecution/enforcement/prevention?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tmy
How many people make it thru the public system just fine?Ay do'ed,

If I ran the school (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039480080X/002-1663052-1893659?v=glance) (pun intended), I'd divide kids by their ability level, starting probably around or just before middle school/junior high and not let kids pass if they're actually failing.

[Skeptical Greg]

If you dropped "unteachable" children from government schools............

They are dropped... After 12 years ....

[Chanileslie]

How do you make the decision on who is teachable and who isn't? Where does that line get drawn? How about the kid who just misbehaves? How about the child who pulls straight D's? What about the class clown? What criteria is to be used to decide who is and who isn't unteachable?

[crimresearch]

"How many people make it thru the public system just fine? How many of us had a public school education. The system aint so bad."

Well, isn't it something like 25% that don't make it through the standard public school system to graduate at the regular age?

And of those who do, a significant number can't function as literate members of society, in terms of reading a set of intructions, filling out an application, etc.

How high would these numbers have to climb to qualify as 'so bad'? 50% - 60% dropout? 30% - 40% functionally illiterate?

[hammegk]

IQ tests do the job just fine; trouble is you can't use them because the results are "racist".

Of course you should be worrying about catching the 125 & up as well as the 85 and down.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by Tmy
How many people make it thru the public system just fine? How many of us had a public school education. The system aint so bad.
Or at least, someone try to quantify the problem, rather than use this singular anecdote as launching point.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy

How many people make it thru the public system just fine? How many of us had a public school education. The system aint so bad.


Talk to the typical high school graduate, it ain't pretty.

[Renfield]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Ay do'ed,

If I ran the school (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039480080X/002-1663052-1893659?v=glance) (pun intended), I'd divide kids by their ability level, starting probably around or just before middle school/junior high and not let kids pass if they're actually failing.

This is pretty much the opposite of the approach thats popular right now. At least in the schools in my state. Everyone, including sever LD students, is thrown together. Its up to the teacher to tailor all lessons to students varying ability levels, while somehow maintaining discipline.

The discipline problems aren't limited to inner city schools, by the way (though I'm sure they've got it worse). Even in your "better" districts, teachers can often spend more time getting students to behave and listen then they do teaching anything.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Hmmm.

Speaking of our tax dollars, what effect do you suppose this move would have, a few years down the line, on government expenditure of said tax dollars on crime prosecution/enforcement/prevention?

Nothing, the "unteachables" are who are in that system already.

Many of you can't fathom a system of schools like Memphis has and the ratio of unteachables to teachables in the inner city and southeast city schools.

These schools are literally glorifed daycare centers and only serve in keeping the kids off the streets in the daytime. Since the students do not learn, their lot in life for making Memphis the usual murder/carjack/homeinvasion capital of the US is set. So not teaching them wouldn't make a difference.

[crimresearch]

Corplinx, that is just not fair. ;)

You know as well as I do that being a product of failing schools, and leading a life of crime from an early age in Memphis, is no impediment of any kind to becoming a Mayor, or a member of City Council, or a County Commissioner, or a vice principal, coach, minister, high ranking police official, etc. here.
:i:

And the murder capitol title is routinely and generously shared with other cities around the country, much like the coveted 'party school' designation.
:p

Paul

[corplinx]

Originally posted by crimresearch
Corplinx, that is just not fair.

You know as well as I do that being a product of failing schools, and leading a life of crime from an early age in Memphis, is no impediment of any kind to becoming a Mayor, or a member of City Council, or a County Commissioner, or a vice principal, coach, minister, high ranking police official, etc. here.

And the murder capitol title is routinely and generously shared with other cities around the country, much like the coveted 'party school' designation.
:p

Paul

I went to white station high school which was both worlds in one. On one hand you had a famously successful public school in that it had the most national merit semifinalists than any other school in the southeast.

On the other hand, 40 percent of the kids at the school were bussed in and the majority performed at poor and failing levels.

[Renfield]

Originally posted by corplinx


Nothing, the "unteachables" are who are in that system already.

Many of you can't fathom a system of schools like Memphis has and the ratio of unteachables to teachables in the inner city and southeast city schools.

These schools are literally glorifed daycare centers and only serve in keeping the kids off the streets in the daytime. Since the students do not learn, their lot in life for making Memphis the usual murder/carjack/homeinvasion capital of the US is set. So not teaching them wouldn't make a difference.

I've seen it firsthand as a sub, so I can comprehend it. Unfortunately, those who can't tend to put the blame almost entirely on the teachers and schools.

It would be interesting to see how schools would perform if you were to start giving students the heave ho when they were repeatedly skipping or causing disruptions.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Tony



Talk to the typical high school graduate, it ain't pretty.

IS this a South thing?? The kids I run into seem smart enough. Reading, speaking, computer skills. Are the Alabamas of the country driving down the curve?? AND how is this any different than in the past. Stupid teenagers are nothhing new.

[crimresearch]

" IS this a South thing?? "

There is always the 'Thank God for Alabama/Mississippi' factor, wherein the states ranked 45th through 49th congratulate themselves for not being in 50th place is spending on education, dropout rate, teen pregnancy rate, illiteracy, infant mortality, and so forth.

And while the numbers seem to cluster around the Southern states, the root problems of parents sending kids to school with an anti-learning bias seems nowadays decidedly urban.


"The dropout rate in large urban districts remains high, although it has decreased slightly in the last few years. In some districts it is double the national average, and in 1992-93 one out of four districts had a four-year dropout rate greater than 35 percent. Also, as opposed to the national trend, the rate for African American and Hispanic students is increasing in some urban areas."
http://www.ericfacility.net/ericdigests/ed386515.html


I deplore the older 'You don't need no schooling, get back behind that plow', just as much as I deplore the newer 'You don't need no schooling, get out of the apartment' or 'You don't need no schooling, just get that 'crazy chack' and get back here' versions

And while we are at it, anyone read Dr. Cosby's commencement remarks on the matter?
http://www.bet.com/articles/0,,c1gb9713-10708,00.html

[wjousts]

Originally posted by corplinx
However, I doubt we will ever have a government brave enough to take on this issue. If you dropped "unteachable" children from government schools, the majority of these students will be black and therefore the move will be seen as racist.

So what do you suggest we do with them? Let them wander the streets? Let them grow up unable to read and write? And what then? Let them beg for money on the streets perhaps? Or are you trying to create a new underclass who will be forced to work lousy jobs for very little money?

[Tmy]

Originally posted by crimresearch
" IS this a South thing?? "

There is always the 'Thank God for Alabama/Mississippi' factor, wherein the states ranked 45th through 49th congratulate themselves for not being in 50th place is spending on education, dropout rate, teen pregnancy rate, illiteracy, infant mortality, and so forth.

And while the numbers seem to cluster around the Southern states, the root problems of parents sending kids to school with an anti-learning bias seems nowadays decidedly urban.



Bama and Miss arent exactly states with big urban popluations.


I hate the idea of tagging kids based on some test at some early age. Some kid has a messed up homelife, thats gonna follow him to school. Ya gonna brand him an idiot for life cause his moms dying of cancer?

[crimresearch]

"Or are you trying to create a new underclass who will be forced to work lousy jobs for very little money?"

Well, between the Great Compromise on campesinos, and the prison industrial complex, don't we already have that?

[LostAngeles]

How do you decide who is "unteachable"? Are IQ tests really racist? Do you drop the smart kids who coast by on tests and don't do the work? Do you drop the LD kids who have given up because the teachers before gave up?

The idea of "dropping" children is just... I don't like it. I don't like it in my gut, and I don't like it on an intellecutal level.

Having been the smart kid coasting by on tests, I know damn well there would have been plenty of teachers who would have pushed for my being dropped. My sister is a dyslexic and the same school system essentially "dropped" her.

Plus, what do you do with these kids? Send them to factories to work, let them become criminals, euthanize them (way extreme, I know), what?

I've decided I want to teach math. I'm well aware that the kids'll eat me alive. But it's Sagan's fault. He made me want to go out and try and encourage these kids.

If I hadn't been encouraged that school was worth my time by a handful of teachers and a wonderfully tolerant guidance counselor, I'd don't know where I'd be, but I'd wager it'd be right under the old Central Artery in Boston.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by wjousts


So what do you suggest we do with them? Let them wander the streets? Let them grow up unable to read and write? And what then? Let them beg for money on the streets perhaps? Or are you trying to create a new underclass who will be forced to work lousy jobs for very little money?

They aren't learning to read and write to begin with.

Of course, that child's welfare is not society's responsibility. Society gave this child the gift of an education that the child's parent(s) could not pay for themselves. The atypical parent of a an unteachable child has done zero to prepare their child for school, has installed an anti-authority attitude in their kids, and on top of that has not installed the adult/child obediance structure in their kid.

K-6 teachers at inner city memphis schools get children who not only have no discipline but resent any attempt to do so. Literally, these kids are ruined.

But what do _we_ do with these kids? Its not my problem. It sure as hell shouldn't be on the schools either.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
Having been the smart kid coasting by on tests, I know damn well there would have been plenty of teachers who would have pushed for my being dropped.


In other words you don't understand this problem.

[LostAngeles]

No, my point was an example of where do you draw the line.

If it's kids who aren't doing the work or putting in the effort, there goes I.

An class of uneducated is the whole society's problem.

[wjousts]

Originally posted by corplinx
But what do _we_ do with these kids? Its not my problem. It sure as hell shouldn't be on the schools either.

It is your problem. They are part of society and so are you. Problems like this need to be fixed and they don't get fixed by booting kids out of school and hoping they disappear, because they won't. So once again, what do you suggest is done with them?

[LostAngeles]

I confess. Education is my bunny-hugging woo-woo issue.

It's a waste of resources to give medical attention to a victim who's going to die no matter what is done, or giving medical attention to a victim, though injured and requiring medical attention, but won't die if care is delayed when to do so takes medical attention from a victim who will survive only if he's given immediate treatment.

Hypothetically, we have a class of thirty students in a severly underfunded inner city school. The children with LDs and behavior problems, that in a school with better funding would be in a program that would benefit them, are mixed in with the average, bright and outright gifted students. Let's say we have five kids with various LDs, three kids with behavior problems of varying degrees and causes, one gifted student, four bright students and seventeen average students. The bright and gifted ones will respond to your teaching very well, but they'll be fine without your attention and won't be in danger of "dying". The LDs and behavior problems need something done for them immediately, lest they "die".

Educational triage would acknowledge that there are black youngsters who cannot benefit academically no matter how many educational resources are spent on them. They have little or no family support.

That there are white students who would hypotentically be in the same boat aside, I can't see how it is these children's fault for their enviroment. Should the opportunity for a better life be taken away? Or are we just going to let them educate themselves in prision?

Education is not a battlefield or a disaster such as "9/11 or the Oklahoma City bombing". Education is a right and a path to a better society.

To leave anyone behind, be it the idiots, the lazy, the troubled, or the average is outright wrong.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Has anyone noticed Mr Williams's illiterate use of the phrase "[A]s such"?

[TAILGUNNER]

I cannot imagine anybody ever stopping trying to teach children

but i do see where the post came from

maybe its time for a rethink , dispose of the politically correct schooling system for those deemed unteachable and allow the creation of a seperate schooling initiative with a far firmer regime of discipline behind it, make it live in and secure so no potential for absense, and limit class sizes with incentive schemes for reaching certain levels of attainment

but dont stop there round up these kids parents and attempt to re-educate them too, discipline begins at home as does a respect and desire for learning

its never too late to teach anybody whatever their behaviour or attitude, just an adjustment to remove any 'trouble' from those that wish to learn and isolate it where it has no option but to learn, yes its harsh but fairer in the long run to have an educated person in the big wide world as opposed to an uneducated thug 'eeking' their way through life

[charley_bigtime]

Originally posted by LostAngeles

That there are white students who would hypotentically be in the same boat aside, I can't see how it is these children's fault for their enviroment. Should the opportunity for a better life be taken away? Or are we just going to let them educate themselves in prision?

Education is not a battlefield or a disaster such as "9/11 or the Oklahoma City bombing". Education is a right and a path to a better society.

To leave anyone behind, be it the idiots, the lazy, the troubled, or the average is outright wrong.

*Applause.*

[hammegk]

Originally posted by wjousts


It is your problem. They are part of society and so are you. Problems like this need to be fixed and they don't get fixed by booting kids out of school and hoping they disappear, because they won't. So once again, what do you suggest is done with them?

Hmm. This group represents what: 1 million, 5 million? Why am I more worried about them than I am about the other 6 billion odd people? The fact that their bloodlines are choosing to ignore the birth-right US citizenship confers, so be it.

What do I suggest? How about, dropping out of school requires mandatory sterilization; legalize & give away drugs to all who want them; fund the homeless shelters & soup kitchens.

[rockoon]

Most of you seem to be worrying about the slow learners and the disruptive - these kids are the problem. Mostly they are the problem for the brighter more motivated students. They arent a big problem for society.

A healthy society needs garbage collectors, janitors, gas station attendents, and various other grunt laborers.

You talk about not leaving a kid behind but there you are pretty much setting up the bright kid for what is clearly a failure relative to their potential. How quickly they lose interrest in school when every year they "learn" the same things. Have to do the same homework. Have to take the same tests.

I am not entirely exaggerating. This is whats been going on for several decades. Year in year out the same student are drilled with the same stuff over and over and over again. The monotony of it all. Its not uncommon for 2nd graders to have what is considered college-level reading skills. Its not uncommon for 2nd graders to have high school-level math skills. They are stuck in the same class with kids who may never learn to read or understand fractions. They progress at the level of the lowest common demoninator.

Only 10 more years of the same stuff. Again and again. I am not suprised that many bright kids drop out of high school the first chance they get. To me and you it doesnt sound like the bright thing to do. But to them its the escape they have been dreaming of.

Ending the monotony of it all.

Their potential is shattered by the dumb kids in the dumb system that was formulated by do-gooders who arent all that well educated themselves. An appeal to emotions is written all over the agenda.

The education system is supposed to make things better for society.

Does it?

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by rockoon
Most of you seem to be worrying about the slow learners and the disruptive - these kids are the problem. Mostly they are the problem for the brighter more motivated students. They arent a big problem for society.

A healthy society needs garbage collectors, janitors, gas station attendents, and various other grunt laborers.

You talk about not leaving a kid behind but there you are pretty much setting up the bright kid for what is clearly a failure relative to their potential. How quickly they lose interrest in school when every year they "learn" the same things. Have to do the same homework. Have to take the same tests.

I am not entirely exaggerating. This is whats been going on for several decades. Year in year out the same student are drilled with the same stuff over and over and over again. The monotony of it all. Its not uncommon for 2nd graders to have what is considered college-level reading skills. Its not uncommon for 2nd graders to have high school-level math skills. They are stuck in the same class with kids who may never learn to read or understand fractions. They progress at the level of the lowest common demoninator.

Only 10 more years of the same stuff. Again and again. I am not suprised that many bright kids drop out of high school the first chance they get. To me and you it doesnt sound like the bright thing to do. But to them its the escape they have been dreaming of.

Ending the monotony of it all.

Their potential is shattered by the dumb kids in the dumb system that was formulated by do-gooders who arent all that well educated themselves. An appeal to emotions is written all over the agenda.

The education system is supposed to make things better for society.

Does it?

This is why segregation by ability is needed. I think I told the tale of how I handled my seventh grade heterogenus grouping by selling answers elsewhere on these boards.

Just because the gas station attendant is literate, is that going to be such a bad thing? I'm sure Cuba with it's reported 90% literacy rate has plenty of janitors. We'll be fine.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by LostAngeles


This is why segregation by ability is needed. I think I told the tale of how I handled my seventh grade heterogenus grouping by selling answers elsewhere on these boards.


Schools already have ability segregation to a degree. Most school systems have a regular program and an advanced program. This usually winds dooming less intelligent students who are capable of being literate to a poorer education since the unteachables are lumped in with them.

Most of the solutions thus far proposed in this thread don't get anywhere near a resolution since they involve special schools, special teachers, and/or special classes that the school systems don't have to spend.

Why deprive the rest of the children of those education dollars to have school do a glorified daycare program for the unteachables?

I believe some of you are still totally in the dark about the severity of this problem in some areas.

[Dancing David]

Well this seems to be following the standard reductionsist lines, lets just examine these kids in a vacum and label them as untaechable shall we , lets ignore the enviroment taht have at home and in thier neighborhoods, lets just treat them all as though they should already have the same skills as a middle class white child. Lets not pretend that the enviroment they come from has anything to do with it, shall we?

I say that before you abandon them as untachable there are a lot of other factors to look into and even then it would be better to teach them a trade other than 'gangsta' before you dump them out of schools.

I agree that there are unteachable kids, but you need to look at the 'big picture' as well, I work with a lot of kids who come from really f***** up worlds and they need a lot of skills training to get them to succede in schools. If you don't have a stable middle class enviroment it is very unlikely that you are going to sit your butt in the chair and learn all day.

After you try then abandon them but I think it would be hard to say that a try has been made.
I agree abandom them after a reasonable effort has been made to help them learn.
(Just so you know , I know a very sucsessful person who grew up in the Robert Taylor homes, BUT she had a mother and family that forced her to go to a private school and to do her home work. This is not an opportunity for children being raised by thier crack addicted grandmothers while dad sits in Joliet and mom lives at Dwight, while uncle shemp sells and hustles a card game in the living room.)

[Ed]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Ay do'ed,

If I ran the school (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039480080X/002-1663052-1893659?v=glance) (pun intended), I'd divide kids by their ability level, starting probably around or just before middle school/junior high and not let kids pass if they're actually failing.


That runs the risk of being eliteist, sexist, racist and who knows what unless your groups are very carefully balanced. When you do that and avid all of those nasty charges, you end up with what we have now.

[Phrost]

So are you supposed to 'bus in' the disruptive kids to the 'good classes' to save them, at the expense of the kids who actually are trying to learn?

That's a non-solution. At what point does idealism give way to reality? 100 good students dragged down for the sake of 1 rotten one?

200?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Phrost
So are you supposed to 'bus in' the disruptive kids to the 'good classes' to save them, at the expense of the kids who actually are trying to learn?

That's a non-solution. At what point does idealism give way to reality? 100 good students dragged down for the sake of 1 rotten one?

200?

How about 10 good students dragged down by 90 bad ones?

I think some people still don't realize the problems in some of the inner city schools. They are halls of the hopeless.

Often, the 10 good students are also very poor and their parents can't afford to send them to a better school or transfer them to a different public school and pay for commuting.

Its one thing to send a child with a discipline problem to a special class. What happens when the teachable students becomes the minority?

[Phrost]

I absolutely agree with you.

I briefly dated a 6th grade teacher in the Bay Area, California. Her school was just a bit south of Oakland, so it definitely wasn't in the best neighborhood.

She told me a story of a writing assignment in which one of her students explained how he planned to lure the girls in the class into the bathroom, and then rape and murder them.

At the parent-teacher conference, the parents didn't care.

What do you do with a kid like that?

I'll tell you. You seperate them from the rest of the students into an environment where there is suffecient disciipline to prevent anyone from disrupting the classes, and then re-integrate them into the regular classes when they've proven they can participate productively.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Phrost
II'll tell you. You seperate them from the rest of the students into an environment where there is suffecient disciipline to prevent anyone from disrupting the classes

If you took a inner city memphis school and attempted to do this, here is what would happen. You would have over 50 percent of the school in special desks with arm restraints and with gags on.

The challenge at many of these schools is literally to keep them in their seats.

Now, I made the 50 percent guesstimate based on the fact that no every kid is hopeless, some are just following the herd.

I doubt you learn very much when you are in restraints....

[Phrost]

Originally posted by corplinx


If you took a inner city memphis school and attempted to do this, here is what would happen. You would have over 50 percent of the school in special desks with arm restraints and with gags on.

The challenge at many of these schools is literally to keep them in their seats.

Now, I made the 50 percent guesstimate based on the fact that no every kid is hopeless, some are just following the herd.

I doubt you learn very much when you are in restraints....

Restraints aren't required. Detailed knowledge of the school's peer groups and their interactions are.

If you remove the ringleader, you usually take the wind out of thhe rest of the followers sails. It just takes a teaching staff willing to work hard at identifying problems from the right perspective.

And that would require a healthy pay raise and much better teacher training, speecifically to identify and deal with such problems.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Phrost



If you remove the ringleader, you usually take the wind out of thhe rest of the followers sails. It just takes a teaching staff willing to work hard at identifying problems from the right perspective.



I think the teaching staff would be happy to do just that, but that would almost certainly be perceived as racist, or anti-multiculturalist, or some other pc'lib lawsuit fodder.

[Phrost]

Originally posted by hammegk


I think the teaching staff would be happy to do just that, but that would almost certainly be perceived as racist, or anti-multiculturalist, or some other pc'lib lawsuit fodder.

Which is complete BS, obviously. For this very reason, agenda-toting liberals are the scourge of critical thinkers everywhere.

The teachers would simply have to document every incident properly and consistently until society pulls its head out of its fifth point of contact and realizes that some people really do deserve to be left behind, as opposed to being carried by the rest of us.

Ultimately, the easiest way to deal with the situation is to work as hard as you can to provide your children the best options for education, be it private school, or moving to an area with better public schools.

We did that ourselves, and it's worked great.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Phrost



If you remove the ringleader, you usually take the wind out of thhe rest of the followers sails.

Racist if the kid is black. It will come back to the lack of professionalism of the educators.

[Phrost]

So what's the solution?

By the way, please ignore my typos... this keyboard is garbage heh.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Phrost


If you remove the ringleader

Like I said, some people just don't get the problem. This isn't a "bad alpha male" issue. This is a class of third graders who are predators and prey and all of them misbehaving to the point where there is no order.

I realize some of you have no idea what is going on in some of our inner city schools, but I think that frankly you would be floored if you knew.

[shuize]

I have seen such problems first hand and I can second corplix's statement that in some areas it is over half the students that are "unteachable."

I remember a particularly bad example a few years ago when I was in a classroom in which the school had to send in an extra teacher just to try and keep order. With me visiting we had three adults in the classroom but it was so loud with students fighting, screaming and running around that I literally could not yell loud enough for the teacher in charge to hear me from the back of the classroom.

There were about three students in that class that were paying any attention to the teachers and I felt really sorry for them. The rest ... I'd say maybe a few of the bunch might have gone on to flipping hamburgers somewhere by now and blaming the racist system for keeping them down....

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by corplinx


Like I said, some people just don't get the problem. This isn't a "bad alpha male" issue. This is a class of third graders who are predators and prey and all of them misbehaving to the point where there is no order.

I realize some of you have no idea what is going on in some of our inner city schools, but I think that frankly you would be floored if you knew.
Instead of eliminating the majority of the students, why not hire more teachers?

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Ay do'ed,

If I ran the school (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039480080X/002-1663052-1893659?v=glance) (pun intended), I'd divide kids by their ability level, starting probably around or just before middle school/junior high and not let kids pass if they're actually failing.

I agree. It is totally assinine to seperate kids by age and not ability.

[Badger]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Ay do'ed,

If I ran the school (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039480080X/002-1663052-1893659?v=glance) (pun intended), I'd divide kids by their ability level, starting probably around or just before middle school/junior high and not let kids pass if they're actually failing.

Wasn't that kind of the way the various "Forms" in British schooling used to work?

[crimresearch]

'Instead of eliminating the majority of the students, why not hire more teachers?"

Well, if the premise is that too many of the kids are unteachable, for a variety of reasons, how would more teachers affect that?

And aren't a lot of school districts working with teacher shortages now? So where would these teachers come from, what classrooms would they use, etc?

[tamiO]

I think that we will start seeing more competition in the private school market and a lowering of private school tuition.

The public school system here in the US is locked into certain things by it's very nature.

Children are treated as criminals, placed into buildings that resemble prisons and even have armed guards and metal detectors. Why are we surprised the children defy this authority?

The private schools that will be successful will be like the Montessori model. Where kids are treated with more respect.

I am doing my part by taking very bright kids out of toxic schools and getting them into college where they are allowed to excel and are respected. The children who have passed through my little school are future education reformists.

I hope to be able to open a private school a la Montessori as soon as I can for the children in my area, Southeast Alabama.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Badger


Wasn't that kind of the way the various "Forms" in British schooling used to work?

I'm not sure. I know in the beginning, before our goverment got so involved, we used to have a mixture of ages in the classroom.

The government has made public school a mess with their piles of forms and bureaucracy.

[Hypocolius]

The problem is not restricted to the US. This article (http://www.private-eye.co.uk/content/showitem.cfm/issue.1107/section.teacher) in Private Eye in the UK is very revealing.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by corplinx


How about 10 good students dragged down by 90 bad ones?

I think some people still don't realize the problems in some of the inner city schools. They are halls of the hopeless.

Corplinx, this is the nth time you've stated that people don't realize the problem, yet you've supplied no facts other than the anecdotal experience of one friend.

Where does 10/90 come from?

I would hope your final analysis would include graduations rates by region by demographic. And surely it would be valuable to know the expenditure per student.

Since we're operating in "let's assume" mode here -- would it trouble you if there was a disparity in $/student between problem schools and good schools, or would that be tough luck?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by tamiO
Children are treated as criminals, placed into buildings that resemble prisons and even have armed guards and metal detectors. Why are we surprised the children defy this authority?


One of the schools I have in mind in this thread doesn't resemble that at all. A second grader isn't a rebel.

[Dancing David]

So is it the kid's fault that they are in the inner city? Take the example of Chicago, with the arrival of the 'blacks' into the inner city we also have the 'corporate flight' to the suburbs, consequence of antiquated proprty taxes, the inner city school gets from $5,000-7,000 per student, while Park Ridge and other suburbs run $10,000-$20,000 per student. Thats the kid's fault right?

As is the fact that they probably stay up late playing video games while they drink pepsi and eat pizza, while they have both parents around to teach them how to do thier homework, and not lets forget all the wonderful neighbors who enourage that kid to stay in school and provide a safe and nurturing enviroment for them.

I grant you the fcat that kids in an inner city high school are hard to teach, but whose fault is that?

Prove to me that throwing more money at the problem won't help. But herein Illinois the schools are underfunded, the State does not meeet it's obligation to fund the schools, our state can't even pay it's Medicaid bills afst enough to get Federal money. All the dollars that went from the Lotto into the 'education' budget were immedeatly stripped pout of geenral revenue and there has been a per capita shrink in education spending.

I agree don't teach the unteachable but firsat off lets give them a safe place to live and eat and study and then see what happens , okay?

[tamiO]

Originally posted by corplinx


One of the schools I have in mind in this thread doesn't resemble that at all. A second grader isn't a rebel.

I didn't say rebel, I am describing a psychological reaction common to that sort of environment. There's a famous study from Stanford, I believe. Let me see if I can dig it up.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Phrost
I absolutely agree with you.

I briefly dated a 6th grade teacher in the Bay Area, California. Her school was just a bit south of Oakland, so it definitely wasn't in the best neighborhood.

She told me a story of a writing assignment in which one of her students explained how he planned to lure the girls in the class into the bathroom, and then rape and murder them.

At the parent-teacher conference, the parents didn't care.

What do you do with a kid like that?

I'll tell you. You seperate them from the rest of the students into an environment where there is suffecient disciipline to prevent anyone from disrupting the classes, and then re-integrate them into the regular classes when they've proven they can participate productively.

I would also question the kind of enviroment this kid is living in if that's considered an "ok" thing. Then, as I would have a legal obligation as a teacher to report such suspicions to the Office of Child Services.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Dancing David
So is it the kid's fault that they are in the inner city?

Hmm. On reflection, it's hereditary, huh?


Also, do you dispute these stats on expenditure/student?

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2003/section6/indicator39.asp


As I understand things, Wash. DC has one of the highest expenditure per pupil and is one of the worst schools systems in the US.

[Dancing David]

Not suprising given the number of beaureucrats per capita. I am making reference only to the shoddy state of Illinois and the plight that the creation of the suburbs has created when you add the local taxation for schools. You have Park Ridge and a very large consolidated district that can offer latin and russian to it's student just miles away from the worst school districts in Illinois.

I agree that just throwing money at things only helps when you are the military. And really we probably could have done more for **** by just dropping a million dollars on them instead of cruise missles.

I am just on my bandwagon advocating for sanctuary for all children who need it, it would decrease the number of runaways and improve the overall test scores. But hey, I am a reforming communist, so I have to keep trying.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Dancing David
I am just on my bandwagon advocating for sanctuary for all children who need it, it would decrease the number of runaways and improve the overall test scores. But hey, I am a reforming communist, so I have to keep trying.

No one is stopping you from donating all your money to the schools. I don't see what right you (or the government) have to steal other people's money to pay for your social ambitions.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Dancing David
I agree don't teach the unteachable but firsat off lets give them a safe place to live and eat and study and then see what happens , okay?

I don't think anyone wants to drop the unteachable altogether. The problem is, what do we do?

We can't take 1000 kids from one school alone and put them in foster homes, much less the kids from an entire school system.

There are no easy answers here.

[crimresearch]

"Children are treated as criminals, placed into buildings that resemble prisons and even have armed guards and metal detectors"

"There's a famous study from Stanford, I believe."

If you are talking about Zimbardo's Stanford Prison experiment,it had nothing to do with children, or the effect of having metal detectors at the door to schools.

It did reveal a lot about the abuse of power.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Tony


No one is stopping you from donating all your money to the schools. I don't see what right you (or the government) have to steal other people's money to pay for your social ambitions.

No one is stopping you from donating all your money to the military. I don't see what right you (or the government) have to steal other people's money to pay for your political ambitions.

Why should I subsidize corporate America, everyday and every way.

I aint telling you to do nothing brother, I express my opinions, just like you.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by corplinx


I don't think anyone wants to drop the unteachable altogether. The problem is, what do we do?

We can't take 1000 kids from one school alone and put them in foster homes, much less the kids from an entire school system.

There are no easy answers here.

I realize that ,but if we wait until they are adults then we subsidise them in other ways, I offer an idea, not a final solution.

I imagine that it costs a lot more to pay for drug addiction, crime and housing them in prisons after we fail them as children.( I could be wrong, maybe prison is cheaper.)

I for one would like to see free birth control for teen agers, oops. Commie that I used to be, I have to stop thinking like that.

Free birth control and education in how babies are made so they can avoid making them. I am still a pinko. Sigh.

[wjousts]

Originally posted by Dancing David
I for one would like to see free birth control for teen agers, oops. Commie that I used to be, I have to stop thinking like that.

Free birth control and education in how babies are made so they can avoid making them. I am still a pinko. Sigh.

I agree. I think the best long term solution is to tackle the supply side. Give ready and inexpensive access to birth control and educate people about sex. A lot of these troubled kids are unwanted children conceived by mistake by people not ready and not fit to be parents. More help and education is needed for the parents right from the start to help them cope.

[wjousts]

Originally posted by Tony


No one is stopping you from donating all your money to the schools. I don't see what right you (or the government) have to steal other people's money to pay for your social ambitions.

So you'd favor a regressive system where the wealthy can shun any responsibility to the rest of society and those who don't have the money and don't happen to live in an area with enough generous people will have their kids grow up with no education at all. Why should I, or any body else, have to pay for schools if other people aren't willing to pay their fair share? It's part of the membership dues for society. If you don't like it you can always move to another country.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Originally posted by Chanileslie
How do you make the decision on who is teachable and who isn't? Where does that line get drawn? How about the kid who just misbehaves? How about the child who pulls straight D's? What about the class clown? What criteria is to be used to decide who is and who isn't unteachable?
Punks=Unteachable
Non-Punks=Teachable

Non-punks will take the initiative and learn on their own. If they pass up the opportunity to learn because they want to front for the posse, too bad. Gas stations and McDonalds always need someone to sweep their driveways.

Everybody makes their own choices.

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by corplinx
Walter E. Williams has a provocative new article. (http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/04/disaster.html)

It hits home to me because I was romantically entangled with an inner city school teacher. Her stories about what went on are simply terrible. Basically you had unteachable students. Most of the teachers at her school spent the day trying to keep the children in their seats. The effect of this is that the students who can learn are held back by the ones who aren't fit to progress due to their home environment.

This of course made me realize that my tax dollars were paying for government schools that are glorifed daycare centers. This is an ugly truth. And worse, capable students at those schools are disadvantaged.

I realize some of you might not be able to relate to this reality but I assure it exists. However, I doubt we will ever have a government brave enough to take on this issue. If you dropped "unteachable" children from government schools, the majority of these students will be black and therefore the move will be seen as racist. No politician has the guts to go near this since his opponents will of course portray it as such.
Tonight may I suggest a bar where air traffic controllers hang out? UFO threads are always popular.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by crimresearch
"Children are treated as criminals, placed into buildings that resemble prisons and even have armed guards and metal detectors"

"There's a famous study from Stanford, I believe."

If you are talking about Zimbardo's Stanford Prison experiment,it had nothing to do with children, or the effect of having metal detectors at the door to schools.

It did reveal a lot about the abuse of power.

I guess we disagree. I would think children would be more susceptible to falling into the role of prisoner. Feelings of boredom, a sense of fear; their every move watched by cameras or armed guards and zero tolerance policies that punish the innocent?

It's not hard to see how school officials and faculty have fallen into the role of prison guard. Policemen with scary drug sniffing dogs patrol the halls at times. Large dogs are very scary to a lot of children, they have seen TV footage of dogs attacking bad people.

It is even punishable by law if chidren are tardy too many days, or are out sick for more than 13 days a semester without a doctor's excuse. As it was explained to me, a parent can be jailed and fined for disobeying the laws concerning attendance.

On top of all this, parents have become complacent and feel powerless to challenge schools when injustice is carried out against their own children. They went through the same school system and have been brainwashed into thinking the schools have the right to do as they please. Besides, it's free daycare from 6am to 5pm in some schools.

Thankfully, there are groups who are helping empower both children and parents. Here is one:

http://www.libertarianrock.com/

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Chanileslie
How do you make the decision on who is teachable and who isn't? Where does that line get drawn? How about the kid who just misbehaves? How about the child who pulls straight D's? What about the class clown? What criteria is to be used to decide who is and who isn't unteachable?


Straight "F" grades would be a strong hint. Still, most of the "unteachable" could be taught something. Perhaps how to shoot a jump shot or do a "moon walk"???


-- Rouser

[Tmy]

Eienstien got lousy grades

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Tmy
Eienstien got lousy grades


-- Factually incorrect -- An urban myth.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s1115185.htm


-- Rouser

[The idea]

Originally posted by corplinx
Basically you had unteachable students. Most of the teachers at her school spent the day trying to keep the children in their seats.
[...]

This of course made me realize that my tax dollars were paying for government schools that are glorifed daycare centers. This is an ugly truth.

[...]

I realize some of you might not be able to relate to this reality but I assure it exists.
[...]


1. You have to distinguish genuine security issues from student opposition to some ideological orthodoxy.

2. Thomas Edison was classified as unteachable.

3. Why should students spend all day sitting? How about some variety? How about some physical exercise throughout the day?

4. Why not let academically inclined students proceed at their own pace? What's supposed to be the connection between the problems caused by students who don't want to learn and the failure of schools to stimulate students who do want to learn?

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Rouser2



-- Factually incorrect -- An urban myth.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s1115185.htm


-- Rouser

From your quote, the bolds are mine.

In 1895, he sat the entrance examinations to get into the prestigious Federal Polytechnic School (or Academy) in Zurich, Switzerland. He was 16, two years younger than his fellow applicants. He did outstandingly well in physics and mathematics, but failed the non-science subjects, doing especially badly in French - so he was not accepted. So in that same year, he continued his studies at the Canton school in Aargau (also called Aarau). He studied well, and this time, he passed the entry exams into the Federal Polytechnic School.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by The idea

4. Why not let academically inclined students proceed at their own pace? What's supposed to be the connection between the problems caused by students who don't want to learn and the failure of schools to stimulate students who do want to learn?

Schools have fallen into the trap of trying to control behavior by creating more and more rules. The more rules - the more stifled and controlled kids feel.

Many of the rules are insulting and gain no respect for the school officials who write them and enforce them.

As you pointed out, the pace of learning is stifled and controlled. That's where I started getting into trouble in school. I was bored out of my skull.

Public school is insulting to kids with a higher than average intelligence.

My daughter was going to have to repeat the 6th grade for missing more than 13 days in a semester! She unschooled for a while then went on to college. She graduated from our local University at age 16 as Valedictorian with a double major, Math and Chemistry.

[crimresearch]

Well, the local Memphis news just did a feature on the Memphis school budget.
http://www.wmcstations.com/Global/story.asp?S=1907128
As the 18th largest school district in the country, Memphis allots 798 million dollars a year, but their per student spending is 74th in the nation.
Bussing costs 2 percent of the budget, infrastructure is 11 percent, and the bulk of the outlay is for salaries...including teachers, principals, retirees, and other employees.

So I'll repeat, how is spending more money on teachers going to affect students who for a variety of reasons, are resistant to instructional technology?

The various proposals to make each teacher a super educator, able to provide therapy, entertainment, an unpbringing, and individually instill an education are patently unworkable.
Society simply cannot afford to provide every child with their own personal Miracle Worker.

So given the real world situation, what are the pragmatic options available?

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by crimresearch

Society simply cannot afford to provide every child with their own personal Miracle Worker.

So given the real world situation, what are the pragmatic options available?
How about a faith-based prison? (http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Dec/12252003/nation_w/123028.asp)

"This is not just fluffy policy, this is serious policy," he said. "For the people who are skeptical about this initiative, I am proud that Florida is the home to the first faith-based prison in the United States."

Inmates at the north Florida prison were told more than a month ago that it would be converted to a faith-based institution, prompting 111 to transfer out.
See? It's working already.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by tamiO


From your quote, the bolds are mine.

In 1895, he sat the entrance examinations to get into the prestigious Federal Polytechnic School (or Academy) in Zurich, Switzerland. He was 16, two years younger than his fellow applicants. He did outstandingly well in physics and mathematics, but failed the non-science subjects, doing especially badly in French - so he was not accepted. So in that same year, he continued his studies at the Canton school in Aargau (also called Aarau). He studied well, and this time, he passed the entry exams into the Federal Polytechnic School.

Failing an entrance exam due to unfamiliarity with the French language is not the same as getting "failing grades" in school Einstein was a "wunder-kid" and did well in school.

-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The idea


>>"Thomas Edison was classified as unteachable"


... at age seven, after just three months in a formal "school". --deemed "addled" because he asked too many questions.

Fact is, Edison was a brilliant student, homeschooled by his mother.


-- Rouser

[Tony]

Originally posted by wjousts


So you'd favor a regressive system where the wealthy can shun any responsibility to the rest of society and those who don't have the money and don't happen to live in an area with enough generous people will have their kids grow up with no education at all.

I favour a system that respects freedom and individual rights. Not the fascism you guys advocate.

Why should I, or any body else, have to pay for schools if other people aren't willing to pay their fair share?

You shouldn't have to pay for schools period. It should be a choice.

It's part of the membership dues for society.

What fascist country do you live in? This is america, I owe no "membership dues" to "society".

If you don't like it you can always move to another country.

LOL

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Rouser2


Failing an entrance exam due to unfamiliarity with the French language is not the same as getting "failing grades" in school Einstein was a "wunder-kid" and did well in school.

-- Rouser

"but failed the non-science subjects, doing especially badly in French"

It wasn't just French.

I don't use that info to declare everyone in public school has the ability to match Einstein, I use the story to point out that genius and public school do not always mix well.

If genius doesn't bide well in the strict teaching methods of public school, then are those methods holding back average intelligence?

I know when I was allowed to go to "gifted class" the syllabus was loose and creative. We chose what to learn about, etc, and were guided by our teacher. Then the other four days of the week we were met with hostility from our normal teachers. I always felt if everyone were to be able to enjoy the freedoms we had in gifted class there would be more gifted kids.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Rouser2
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The idea


>>"Thomas Edison was classified as unteachable"


... at age seven, after just three months in a formal "school". --deemed "addled" because he asked too many questions.

Fact is, Edison was a brilliant student, homeschooled by his mother.


-- Rouser

I think we agree! I put Einstein into the same category as Thomas Edison. Formal schooling methods are not for the genius and unschooling is the method preferred.

[Mr Manifesto]

On a lighter note... (http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4021&n=2)

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
On a lighter note... (http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4021&n=2)

:D

[wjousts]

Originally posted by Tony
You shouldn't have to pay for schools period. It should be a choice.

Then it doesn't work, idiot. Anybody who knows anything about human nature will immediately see that nobody is going to willingly give up there hard earned cash for education. You've made it abundantly clear that you wouldn't. You're willing to take all the benefits of living in this society just so long as you don't have to pay for it. That is lazy and selfish.

Originally posted by Tony
What fascist country do you live in? This is america, I owe no "membership dues" to "society".

Yes you do. You take from this country and you have an obligation to pay back for the good of society. Your dues are your taxes and you are obligated by law to pay them. If you don't think it's worth the money then leave.


Originally posted by Tony
LOL

Why would you laugh at the suggest that you move? You obviously hate this country so much that your aren't willing to pay for it. Anybody who truely loved their country would see that paying for it is well worthwhile. Short of giving your life or serving to defend your country what more patroitic thing can you do what to part with your hard earned cash to make the whole of society better?

[Tmy]

WHo are the unteachable?? Dumb kids or disruptive kids??? Just cause someone is disruptive does not mean they are failing, and vice verse. So who do we kill?

[Tony]

Originally posted by wjousts

Anybody who knows anything about human nature will immediately see that nobody is going to willingly give up there hard earned cash for education.

Not even you? Not even Dancing David?

You're willing to take all the benefits of living in this society just so long as you don't have to pay for it. That is lazy and selfish.

Strawman.

Yes you do. You take from this country and you have an obligation to pay back for the good of society.

I'd like to see constitutional evidence of this.

Why would you laugh at the suggest that you move?

There's something funny about a fascist telling someone to leave america because there isn't enough freedom.

You obviously hate this country so much that your aren't willing to pay for it.

Strawman.

Anybody who truely loved their country would see that paying for it is well worthwhile.

I'm not "paying" for it. I'm having my money stolen from me to finance certain politician’s world-view.

Short of giving your life or serving to defend your country what more patroitic thing can you do what to part with your hard earned cash to make the whole of society better?

Standing up for your country's principles (the ones you hate) is more patriotic than "paying" for a corrupt and quasi-fascist system.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Dancing David

I don't see what right you (or the government) have to steal other people's money to pay for your political ambitions.


You don't? Then why do you constantly advocate that people be forced pay for yours?

Why should I subsidize corporate America, everyday and every way.

You shouldn't. Too bad you aren't willing to do anything about it. The problem isn't that they are "subsidizing" corporate America. The problem is that they have the money, and thus the power, to "subsidize" corporate America.

It looks like you are only against government abuse of power as long as you disagree with it.

[crimresearch]

Why does the specific profile matter?

If someone punches out the teacher, they probably aren't going to benefit fully from the instruction offered.
If someone can't grasp the material, they probably aren't going to benefit fully from the instruction offered.
If someone is overdosed on Ritalin, or is bored with the material, or is pretending to be bored with the material as a defensive mechanism, they probably aren't going to benefit fully from the instruction offered.
If someone is living in such horrific conditions at home that they can't function, they probably aren't going to benefit fully from the instruction offered

At the end of the day, the total numbers of those who aren't getting much benefit from the instruction offered would seem to have reached an alarming level.

Which would then seem to make solutions like throwing more money at the existing system, or wishing for uber-educators to come to the rescue, a tad unlikely to prove effective.

Equally unlikely to prevent society from dumping their problems on their kids, and through them the school system.

So is there any other practical area for possible improvement than in the format or operation of the school systems themsleves?

[wjousts]

Originally posted by Tony
Not even you? Not even Dancing David?

Why should I? If you're not willing to contribute why should I have to pick up your slack?

Originally posted by Tony
Strawman.

Ironic coming from somebody who constantly labels anyone who supports any form of taxation as a fascist.

Originally posted by Tony
I'd like to see constitutional evidence of this.

So you're perfectly happy to take, take, take and never give anything back?

Originally posted by Tony
There's something funny about a fascist telling someone to leave america because there isn't enough freedom.

Strawman! See, I can do it too.

Originally posted by Tony
I'm not "paying" for it. I'm having my money stolen from me to finance certain politician’s world-view.

You mean those politicians that are elected by the people to represent them? So you don't believe in democracy either? So if the majority of people want some taxation to pay for essential government services (such as education) you'd still oppose it and whine about having your money stolen?

Originally posted by Tony
Standing up for your country's principles (the ones you hate) is more patriotic than "paying" for a corrupt and quasi-fascist system.

Which principles do I hate? Strawman.

[hammegk]

Vouchers would at least offer a choice. $5000/yr is more than many private schools require.

Of course most offer a dose of religious morality, often Christianity. OTOH, prisons seem to be breeding grounds for Islamofascists.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by hammegk
Vouchers would at least offer a choice. $5000/yr is more than many private schools require.

Of course most offer a dose of religious morality, often Christianity. OTOH, prisons seem to be breeding grounds for Islamofascists.

Screw vouchers. Thats just more taxpayer abuse.

Why not give me a vocher to buy a car so I dont have to use public transportation.

[Tony]

Originally posted by wjousts

Why should I? If you're not willing to contribute why should I have to pick up your slack?


You shouldn't. But if you really care about education, you'll pay for it regardless of what I do. Furthermore, I never said I would be unwilling to pay for education. I just said I don't want to be forced to pay. That's a significant nuance your small mind seems to be incapable of comprehending.

So you're perfectly happy to take, take, take and never give anything back?

No constituational evidence? That's what I thought. Are you now going to retract your claim that "It's part of the membership dues for society."

Strawman!

It's a strawman that I find something funny?

So you don't believe in democracy either?

I believe in the rule of law, not the rule of the majority.

So if the majority of people want some taxation to pay for essential government services (such as education) you'd still oppose it and whine about having your money stolen?

Absolutely. Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny.

Would you "whine" if the majority voted to re-institute slavery? Do you "whine" that the majority is against gay marriage?

Which principles do I hate?

Individual and personal freedom.

Strawman.

Hey, I'm willing to engage in honest discussion. You were the first one to resort to personal attacks and strawman arguments.

[wjousts]

Originally posted by Tony
You shouldn't. But if you really care about education, you'll pay for it regardless of what I do.

No. So I should pay for everybodies education because other people won't? I should pay to educate people so you can have the benefits without paying for it? You try and play an emotional game with the "if you really care about education" crap. I do care about education and that's why I want to see if funded through tax revune. If you cared about education, everybodies education, not just your own kids, you'd agree.

Originally posted by Tony
Furthermore, I never said I would be unwilling to pay for education. I just said I don't want to be forced to pay. That's a significant nuance your small mind seems to be incapable of comprehending.

And there's more than a nuance that your small mind clearly isn't capable of understanding. Who is going to pay for schools in poor neighborhoods where the local people can't afford to donate their money to schools? No wait, I know, I should right? I should pay for all of it because you won't.

Originally posted by Tony
No constituational evidence? That's what I thought. Are you now going to retract your claim that "It's part of the membership dues for society."

No, it's still the law. The constitution doesn't forbid the government from raising taxes so it isn't relevant. Not every law is enshrined in the constitution and neither should they be.

Originally posted by Tony
It's a strawman that I find something funny?

No it's a strawman to call me a fascist. I've pointed this out already. Please do try and follow along.

Originally posted by Tony
I believe in the rule of law, not the rule of the majority.

Ironic. Except tax laws I assume?

Originally posted by Tony
Individual and personal freedom.

More strawmen? Yeah, of course I want everybody enslaved :rolleyes: because I think people have a duty to help with the running of this country.

Originally posted by Tony
Hey, I'm willing to engage in honest discussion. You were the first one to resort to personal attacks and strawman arguments.

No, just checked back. You called me a fascist before I called you an idiot. So much for honesty. Perhaps you don't consider fascist to be an insult?
I do apologize for calling you an idiot though. I shouldn't have lowered myself and it doesn't help the discusion.

[DavidJames]

Part of me wishes that "unteachable" kids could be simply removed from the rolls. That would allow more accurate performance comparisons between public schools and private schools. Then we can remove those who aren't interested in going to school at all from the public schools. Then, maybe we can see some truly valid comparisons between public and private schools.

[Tony]

Originally posted by wjousts

No. So I should pay for everybodies education because other people won't?

No, you should pay (or not pay) for everybody's education because you care (or not).

I should pay to educate people so you can have the benefits without paying for it?

No, you should pay because you care. What I do should be irrelevant.

I do care about education and that's why I want to see if funded through tax revune.

You care so much you think other people should be forced to pay? That's pretty unamerican. Like I said, if you care, you should pay.

If you cared about education, everybodies education, not just your own kids, you'd agree.

Wrong. I'm not a fascist, I'm not an authoritarian and I'm not a tyrant. I don't think other people should be forced to pay for things I care about.

Who is going to pay for schools in poor neighborhoods where the local people can't afford to donate their money to schools?

Rich people who care (they do exist).

No, it's still the law.

Show me the law that says "taxes" are my "membership dues for society".

The constitution doesn't forbid the government from raising taxes so it isn't relevant.

Thanks to our fascistic leaders who abused their power lied to the American public.

Except tax laws I assume?

Believing in the rule of law prevents me from opposing fascism and tyrannical policies?

Yeah, of course I want everybody enslaved :rolleyes: because I think people have a duty to help with the running of this country.

Just like the "duty" the black people had to the people who gave them food and shelter? Just like the "duty" every german citizen had to the state?

You called me a fascist before I called you an idiot. So much for honesty. Perhaps you don't consider fascist to be an insult?

Would calling Rush Limbagh a "conservative" be an insult?

[Tmy]

IS there any country that does not have some sort of taxes??


I think theres an "education" line in the declaration of independence.

[wjousts]

Originally posted by Tmy
IS there any country that does not have some sort of taxes??


I think theres an "education" line in the declaration of independence.

Wasn't "taxation without representation is tyrany" a ralling cry at the Boston tea party? Apparently Tony missed the "with representation" part.

Originally posted by Tony
Rich people who care (they do exist).

Come on. How much do you SERIOUSLY think you can raise through donations? Seriously. It's not practical and if you think it is you are totally deluded, completely blinded by your own ideology to the realities of the world. There is no way you could raise enough money through donations to fund every school in the country and all the other government functions that you think you shouldn't be "forced" to pay for.

Originally posted by Tony
Would calling Rush Limbagh a "conservative" be an insult?

No, he is a conservative. Ask him and he'll tell you. I am not a fascist and find it absolutely abhorrent for you to call me that. I appologized for calling you an idiot, but apparently you're not civil enough to abandon your petty name calling. Since you're not willing to raise the level, I shalt bother wasting time with you anymore. I expect you mother is calling you in for dinner by now.

[Tony]

Originally posted by wjousts

There is no way you could raise enough money through donations to fund every school in the country and all the other government functions that you think you shouldn't be "forced" to pay for.


Then I guess they'd have to use that money more efficiently.

I am not a fascist and find it absolutely abhorrent for you to call me that.

I call them like I see them. When someone starts talking of "duty" and "obligation" to the state or "society" (especially when it entails force ), I get suspicious.

Just curious, why do you find it absolutely abhorrent?

I appologized for calling you an idiot, but apparently you're not civil enough to abandon your petty name calling.

Because it's not petty name calling and I didn't mean it as an insult either.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
On a lighter note... (http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4021&n=2)

That's going to be me! Er, until the children break my soul and spirit and turn me into the bitter, spiteful teacher that I'd always hated.

That, I'm being realistic about. In all likelyhood, I'll be taking state and federal money for my degree, which will require me, in turn, to put in a certain number of years at a "low-performing" school. Or is it "needy". I forget how they phrase it.

Corplinx, thank Eris. I thought you were honestly advocating dropping these children all together. I see that's not exactly the case.

I still stand firmly, idealistically, and thusly, quite likely naively behind the stance that education can better all people. To hell with claims of "elitism" and "-flavor of someone's agenda-ism". The system, at the least needs to be restructured so as to provide academic support and encouragement to the children, regardless of their level. Please note, I said academic. School is a place to learn academics, and to a slightly more subtle extent, social skills. Sadly, a lot of parents prefer to leave the sex ed and moral ed up to the system.

If Bobby can't do the work for his age level, then have him be in a lower class. If Betsy can do that and more, she's in a higher level. Both kids should walk out with basic math skills, reading comphrension, and (please) critical thinking skills at the basics.

Betsy may create a Grand Unifed Theory that explains the universe, cures cancer, and makes kittens even KUH-YOOTer. Bobby pumps her gas. Yet (hopefully) both can balance a checkbook, understand the important parts and overall message of a newspaper article, and generally contribute.

Give me about five-six years, though. I may be on the other side by then.

[crimresearch]

"until the children break my soul and spirit and turn me into the bitter, spiteful teacher that I'd always hated."

Took them 4 weeks in my case, then I called up the school board, and told them to put me anywhere but a middle school...spent the rest of the year happily teaching at a high school.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by crimresearch
"until the children break my soul and spirit and turn me into the bitter, spiteful teacher that I'd always hated."

Took them 4 weeks in my case, then I called up the school board, and told them to put me anywhere but a middle school...spent the rest of the year happily teaching at a high school.

Well, I am still debating on middle or high school, myself. Stop making my fear worse!:)

Actually, my middle school was pretty violent for one, so I can understand the desire in a way.

(formatting came out weird.)

[Clancie]

I've seen teachers who didn't teach.

I've seen students who weren't interested in learning.

I've never seen any students in public school who genuinely seemed "unteachable", meaning "not able to be taught, at all.".

What would the definition of an "unteachable" student be? How many of them do you think there really are in public school classrooms?

:confused:

[shuize]

There was a time when I considered teaching as a profession. Then I came to my senses. As I mentioned above, most of what I saw in the urban schools amounted to little more than babysitting. There was almost no "teaching" taking place. That alone was bad enough, but the pay is crap as well. I really couldn't understand why those with any ability would subject themselves to it.

Later, I worked in a job that required reviewing school disciplinary matters that worked their way to juvenile court. After reading about a dozen "teacher" statements that looked like a group of twelve year olds had written, I realized that the old cliche about "those who can't ..." really has some basis to it after all.

[crimresearch]

Which still isn't answering the initial question about using a triage model to make the most effective use of the the school system we have got. Is the purpose of schools to make things better, or to continue a downward slide?

The imaginary school system, where all the teachers have EdDs and PhDs in counseling psychology and make 6 figure salaries, and love every student, and all the students are truly, really, gosharoonee 'teachable' is a pipe dream.

Instead we have the real world public school system where the teachers make 40K, and hold a bachelors degree plus...

Do we blindly repeat failed political solutions and raise administrators salaries from $200,00 to $300,000? Do we keep giving students 4.5 GPAs for non-scholastic activities, and set up another round of 'adjustments' in the standardized test scores?

Or do we finally admit that Lake Woebegone is fiction, that at least some of of the children are in fact *below* the average, and that a certain number of students are inflicting the problems which were laid on them by their parents, on the rest of the school system?

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by tamiO [/i]


>>"but failed the non-science subjects, doing especially badly in French"

>>It wasn't just French.


Yes, It was just French, as all the non-science subjects were in that less familiar language. And he didn't "fail" the subjects as this was an entrance exam taken two years junior to the normally accepted age for the school.

>>I don't use that info to declare everyone in public school has the ability to match Einstein, I use the story to point out that genius and public school do not always mix well.


Genius and government schools absolutely do not mix. But that does not prove that kids who get straight "Fs" in school are normally geniuses. They normally are imbeciles who have no place in any formal school setting.

-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

[Originally posted by Tmy [/i]


>>I think theres an "education" line in the declaration of independence.


You think wrongly, oh poor hapless victim of the government school from the People's Republic of Taxachusettes. There is nothing in the Declaration concerning "Education" much less "free, public" education. Nor is there anything in the Federal Constitution concerning Education, nor a graduated, progressive income tax. Those articles are to be found in a document known as the Communist Manifesto, the 2nd and 10th Planks, respectively.

II. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

X. Free education for all children in government schools.


-- Rouser

[Denise]

Originally posted by wjousts


I agree. I think the best long term solution is to tackle the supply side. Give ready and inexpensive access to birth control and educate people about sex. A lot of these troubled kids are unwanted children conceived by mistake by people not ready and not fit to be parents. More help and education is needed for the parents right from the start to help them cope.

A lot of inner city schools already have that. The problem is that it is an accepted practice in many of these communities to be teen parents that are unmarried. Giving access will not make the change that must be made within the culture. A lot of these troubled kids are third and fourth generation births to unwed and teen parents. The schools, in my opinion, are to teach academics. They cannot concentrate on their goals if they have to teach entire families social rules which many of them will disregard anyhow. The change must come from within the community, not the schools.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Rouser2
[Originally posted by Tmy [/i]

You think wrongly, oh poor hapless victim of the government school from the People's Republic of Taxachusettes.
-- Rouser

I went to Catholic school till 8th grade. :p

I can name most of the sacraments!

[crimresearch]

Denise speaks accurately and wisely.
The notion that our schools should be responsible for correcting situations inside dysfunctional homes and communities has been floated, and seems to have done little to counter the root causes of certain issues.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Tmy


I went to Catholic school till 8th grade. :p



How much did that actual education you received have to do with the fact that you are a poster in good standing here on JREF? Ever thought about it?

[Tmy]

Man the difference tween my Public High School and Catholic elementry shool is rather interesting.

I have to say the biggest difference was discipline, not so much teaching ability. In fact the pub school teachers were paid far more than at my little catholic school.

When I got to highschool I was ahead of my peers. Till I realized I coudl get away with murder and not get in trouble.. The public school was better at handleing the different needs of students. In catholic school it was sink or swim. If you had a problem theyd just hold you back.

The administration at public school can really screw things up. Coming from a non public school they were unsure of what level class to put me in. They put me in Algebra and it was soooo easy for me. Id finish my homework before the teacher taught the lesson. I didnt even pay attention in class. THe teacher left me alone cause i wasnt disruptive (i was busy doing the next days homework during class). I actually went to my guidence counselor and requested a tougher class. WHAT 9TH GRADER DOES THAT??? What did they do?? THey told me NO! NO!?!?!?! No test or nothing, they thought it was a bad idea. Which sucked for me cause when I hit college the math got alot harder.

[odorousrex]

Originally posted by wjousts
Or are you trying to create a new underclass who will be forced to work lousy jobs for very little money?

Why not? Everyone in this country is given the same opportunity to learn and suceed. However, many of this students are taught by their families that this is not the case.
And the problem is, the large proportion of these "unteachables" are black, it's seen as racial. So the government will never touch it without getting sued to smithereens. Creating such a class would be seen as "slavery"

Racism is disgusting. But ignorance is worse.

[DavidJames]

The public school was better at handleing the different needs of students. In catholic school it was sink or swim. If you had a problem theyd just hold you back. Bingo. Try and hold kids back in public school and you get a bunch of whiny parents jumping down the schools throat. Run public schools with the same rules as private and you will see similar results. Which brings us back to the premise of the thread.

I don't have an answer, but I'm pretty sure simply abandoning kids who either can't or won't learn, will make things worse.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by DavidJames
Bingo. Try and hold kids back in public school and you get a bunch of whiny parents jumping down the schools throat. Run public schools with the same rules as private and you will see similar results. Which brings us back to the premise of the thread.



Thats not what I meant. I was thinking of this Chinese kid who ended up in my catholic school (I think he was a Buddist, HA!) . He coudlnt speak much of any english. We had no 2nd language program, so the kid got F's in most subjects except Math. He kicked all our asses in math, and he could do the same in science except for the language thing. So he got held back. Not cause he was dumb, but cause of communication problems.

God forbid you have a learning disabilty! Theyd try to humilate the disabilty out of you.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Rouser2
...
You think wrongly, oh poor hapless victim of the government school from the People's Republic of Taxachusettes.
...

-- Rouser

Ahem. The People's Republic of Cambridge is in Taxachussetts, but the state itself isn't as liberal. See: Those Annoying Friggin' Blue Laws.

[Tmy]

And "Liberal" Taxachusettes has had republican govenors for like the last 12 years.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
And "Liberal" Taxachusettes has had republican govenors for like the last 12 years.

Since when is does the "liberal" label only belong to democrats?

[Tmy]

Since forever. Or at least the Civil War.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by DavidJames
Bingo. Try and hold kids back in public school and you get a bunch of whiny parents jumping down the schools throat.

You are wrong, at least in the inner city skools where the problems lie. What you get is a class of 16 year old fifth graders who are bigger and meaner than you, better armed, and not hamstrung by the "no corporal punishment" ruling the school system works under.

[Rouser2]

Dancing David wrote:

"... for one would like to see free birth control for teen agers, oops. Commie that I used to be, I have to stop thinking like that.

Free birth control and education in how babies are made so they can avoid making them. I am still a pinko. Sigh.
__________________

WJousts wrote:
"Give ready and inexpensive access to birth control and educate people about sex. A lot of these troubled kids are unwanted children conceived by mistake by people not ready and not fit to be parents. "


Comment. Those who believe that the cause of unmarried inner city teens is due to a lack of sex education or knowledge of birth control haven't a clue, nor have ever taught nor dealt with inner city kids. By and large, teen age girls having fatherless babies is no accident nor due to any ignorance. Those babies are bought and paid for by the government. These fatherless babies (the more the better) are seen as a free ticket to "financial independence" by inner city teenage girls. The more fatherless babies they bear, the more they are financially rewarded by the slave masters of the Liberal Welfare plantation -- all funded from the "contributions" offered up by the poor, dumb taxpayer. Thus, the fatherless children grow up to be, in many cases, unemployed, and prone to keep the cycle going of irresponsible motherhood if female, and if male, destined for a life of crime -- all the fruits of liberalism and the Welfare State.


-- Rouser

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Tmy
And "Liberal" Taxachusettes has had republican govenors for like the last 12 years.

You sure you're from there?

Because the actual governor is a Democrat I believe. The Republicans in the corner office are for show.