The Rapture Index

[Pyrrho]

Get right with God you heathens. Time is running out.

http://www.raptureready.com/

Reported as a newsworthy item by the brilliant minds at WEWS:

http://www.newsnet5.com/newschannel5/1588673/detail.html


CLEVELAND -- The "Rapture Index" claims to track just how close we are to the end of the world.

In Thursday night's Special Assignment, NewsChannel5's Brad Harvey looks at what's behind a growing interest in biblical prophecies that are seemingly coming true.


From Rapture Ready:

"Someday all born-again believers are going to suddenly find themselves caught-up into the heavenly realm to meet the Lord. The only remedy for this shocking event is to be on constant vigilance. "

[JoxterTheMighty]

Great now whenever I hear a trumpet blowing I'll be looking up for Jesus on a cloud :P

[a_unique_person]

Such scenes of war, natural disaster, rapine, murder and devastation as has never covered all the face of the land at one time in all the history of the earth. The great war lord lays waste all in his ever-increasing path, the very report of which sends terror before him. The earth herself mourns as her children reap death in such number, there are not enough left to bury the dead, bringing plague and pestilence of every order to her seemingly few remaining inhabitants. The wicked slay the wicked in every increasing number

This seems to be a common 'indicator' of the end times. I think that many christians would do well to learn some history for a change, rather than just mythology.

There have been disasters happening all through history, and as bad as 9/11 was, it wasn't that big in terms of recent world disasters, it was just on the teev.

[a_unique_person]

From the web site, who is the antichrist?

Barney the Dinosaur Because John, the writer of Revelation, would have never known what a dinosaur looked like, it's logical to assume he would have identified any vision of Barney as being a dragon. With this taken into consideration, you might find the following scriptures quite revealing:

Revelation 12:3, "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon..,"
Revelation 13:4, "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"
Revelation 20:2, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."



They can't tell when someone is pulling their leg.

[headscratcher4]

I know, I know, it is crazy to quibble with this stuff.. but John says "red" dragon. Barney, at least on my television is purple. Both colors existed and were known to John there on that island (Patmos?). Indeed, as the imperial color (and I believe a color limited to only members of the imperial family), purpul was distinct. So, methinks reading red as purple is not only a mistake and a most liberal interpretation (cause' I assume John knew his colors even if he didn't know dragons from dinosaurs), that Barney, at least, is out of the running....

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
I know, I know, it is crazy to quibble with this stuff.. but John says "red" dragon. Barney, at least on my television is purple. Both colors existed and were known to John there on that island (Patmos?). Indeed, as the imperial color (and I believe a color limited to only members of the imperial family), purpul was distinct. So, methinks reading red as purple is not only a mistake and a most liberal interpretation (cause' I assume John knew his colors even if he didn't know dragons from dinosaurs), that Barney, at least, is out of the running....

Interesting you should mention confusion between red and purple. Seems the Gospels can't agree on whether or not Jesus' robes were red (scarlet) or purple before he was crucified. Maybe John was colorblind. :D

[billiefan2000]

What do you mean by Mythology?

I mean the Nation of Israel existing now is proof of Bible Prophecy happening.

[daenku32]

So what kinda index will it give after the nuclear war is over and everyone is dead...?

[billiefan2000]

what makes you think we will all be killed.

The bible mentions that this is a world without end.

[justsaygnosis]

Will the skeptics be beamed up by space monkies instead?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I mean the Nation of Israel existing now is proof of Bible Prophecy happening.

Technically no. The Bible says that the generation who sees the rebirth of Israel will see the second coming of christ. Now, assuming that his "prophecy" has been fulfilled is to assume that Israel has been reborn and will not be destroyed again and set up yet another rebirth. Technically, the new israel is not the old one since the borders don't match. For the bible "prophecy" to come true, there are going to have to be a ton more settlements.

Notice I put quotes around the word "prophecy". That is because the biblical definition of phophecy is not "future-telling".

In short, if the bible said "tomorrow the sun will rise", and it did indeed rise; that would not be "proof" of any kind that the original statement was the future foreseen. It could just be coincidence.

[neutrino_cannon]

Is there a yearly convention for the people who write this stuff? Do they vote on what year sounds best for the end of the world? Do they come up with new nonsense, or do they just trot the old stuff out and wrap it up in new ribbons? Do they even eat? I mean, perfect time to loose weight, with the end of the world and all. Probably a little fasting wouldn't hurt, what given the devastation and smiting and plauge and all.

I officialy label them i-diots.

[Marvel Frozen]

People have been predicting that the end of the world is near for basically the last 2000 years. They usually seem to point out wars and natural disasters as "proof" that the end time is near. If these people would just open their eyes they would see that wars and natural disasters have been constant throughout human history.

Anyway, I found this page (http://www.bible.ca/pre-date-setters.htm) with over 200 predictions of the end of the world ranging from 44 Ad onward. Some of the predictions even go down to the exact second.

[Gregor]

Armaggedon Watching is a great pasttime. Marvel, however, you ought to post a disclaimer to that site. It's run by Xianidiots whose other pages argue that man and dinosaur lived at the same time, pre-flood, that is.

Here's a great index to millennial madness:

www.chrisnelson.net

[Ruby]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marvel Frozen
[B]People have been predicting that the end of the world is near for basically the last 2000 years. They usually seem to point out wars and natural disasters as "proof" that the end time is near. If these people would just open their eyes they would see that wars and natural disasters have been constant throughout human history."<<<<

They always site AIDS and cancer as part of the "signs of the times". They need to see is that there have been much worse diseases in past history. The bubonic plague was horrific...killing one third of the people in Europe. Plus, there were no antibiotics to take care of simple infections. There was nothing at all for those who had cancer. Life expectancy was low. Compared to all that, we have made incredible strides in medicine. What we can do now is amazing.

Oh well...just my two cents!:-)

[billiefan2000]

such as Tulsa Prophecy Conference on April 2 to 4.

http://www.raptureready.com

mentions more on it.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by neutrino_cannon
I officialy label them i-diots.

Just out of curiosity, what's a diot?

[Yahzi]

During the Black Death, they thought it was the end times - but the most common theory was that God had given up on Man and was just out to do him in. So being holy was a lost cause, and people just partied like it was 1999 (aka The Masque of the Red Death).

[Underemployed]

From Rapture Ready:

"Someday all born-again believers are going to suddenly find themselves caught-up into the heavenly realm to meet the Lord. The only remedy for this shocking event is to be on constant vigilance. "

The only remedy???

Isn't the whole idea to go to the heavenly realm and meet the Lord? Did I miss a chapter somewhere?

[Roadtoad]

Every so often, I read through this sort of thing to remind myself that somewhere, there are people who really have NO FRIGGING LIFE!

Jesus said that there would be wars and rumors of war, and when we encounter this, to look up, for our redemption was coming. There have been wars and rumors of wars from the moment man's feet hit the dirt, from Afarensis to Homo Erectus, to Homo Sapiens. Nothing has ever changed that way and it never will. HE DID NOT SAY TO SIT ON OUR BUTTS AND WAIT FOR HIM, but what He was saying was that we weren't to start running for cover. We were to live our lives to the fullest extent, as best we could, because you are not promised the next day.

You're right, Gregor. You're dealing with complete boobs. If the only thing you have to offer someone is fear that they might be left behind in a Rapture, then you really don't have much to offer, do you? What good is Heaven if your life on Earth is only half lived? (Or lived not at all because you were sitting around for God to call you home? Lame, lame, lame...)

Why would I ever waste my time listening to a coward? Someone too gutless to actually question God, even to the point of demanding evidence that God exists? If you haven't done that, then how can you say you have faith at all?

Rapture index? Sounds like another excuse to avoid real responsibility for your life. I'll bet Falwell's crowd just eats this BS up.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
Every so often, I read through this sort of thing to remind myself that somewhere, there are people who really have NO FRIGGING LIFE!

Jesus said that there would be wars and rumors of war, and when we encounter this, to look up, for our redemption was coming. There have been wars and rumors of wars from the moment man's feet hit the dirt, from Afarensis to Homo Erectus, to Homo Sapiens. Nothing has ever changed that way and it never will. HE DID NOT SAY TO SIT ON OUR BUTTS AND WAIT FOR HIM, but what He was saying was that we weren't to start running for cover. We were to live our lives to the fullest extent, as best we could, because you are not promised the next day.

*Applause!!!*



http://home.att.net/~jandk.pan/monkey.gif

[billiefan2000]

I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.


That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

[Kiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.


That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

Easy! Loot all their best stuff!!

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.


That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

1. If the Rapture occurs and I am still here, then I'll probably hunker down for the next seven years, and try to do what I should have been doing in the first place, which is live my life to the fullest, and declare my faith with my ACTIONS, not so much my words. Capice?

2. If I am taken in the Rapture, I won't have much to worry about, will I?

Perhaps, Billiefan2000, you might want to ask another question: Just how much does preaching accomplish, when it's actions that speak the loudest? Far too often, (and you can read my previous posts on this), Christians spend too much time jamming fingers in peoples faces, and not enough time DOING WHAT JESUS TOLD THEM TO! Far too many "Christian" businesses are even more crooked than non-Christian businesses, and that, my friend, is only the beginning. If you want to debate it, I'm more than ready to. (Trust me: Three years in Christian radio, a former lay minister, and a bible study leader. Knock yourself out.)

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Kiri


Easy! Loot all their best stuff!!

Kiri,if people you love and care about are missing will you be looting their stuff?

[billiefan2000]

many Media Outlets have done a story on the site.

Salt Lake City newspaper and TIME and ROLLING STONE and FORBES and WIRED have all done a story on the site at:

http://www.raptureready.com


What is your problem with that website getting publicity?

Or you are afraid of the truth is that it?

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


Kiri,if people you love and care about are missing will you be looting their stuff?

Why not? If people you "love" are missing because of the "rapture"...they don't need the stuff, they've gone to a better place where they don't need stuff...because, as we know, essentially heaven is the great Walmart in the sky...So, you might as well loot it...but loot is the wrong term, isn't it...'cause the "stuff" will be abandoned..so finders keeper probably applies...besides, better Keri gets to use it rather than Satan!

BTW...all of the predictions about the coming of the anti-christ fit GW Bush. :eek:

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
BTW...all of the predictions about the coming of the anti-christ fit GW Bush. :eek:

And they fit John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and Bill Clinton. They also fit Harold MacMillan, John Major, and Tony Blair. (No, they didn't fit Margaret Thatcher, unless you choose to call her the Whore of Babylon...)

Personally, I go with you HS4. If someone is gone in the Rapture, they ain't gonna need their Porsche. Have at it.

Hey, if I'M gone in the Rapture, you can have my crummy Subaru!:D

Can we now call this thread "finished?"

[billiefan2000]

Is George W. Bush from Rome Italy? DOUBT IT.


The AC will come out of the REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE or what we call today the EUROPEAN UNION.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Is George W. Bush from Rome Italy? DOUBT IT.


The AC will come out of the REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE or what we call today the EUROPEAN UNION.

Neither is the current Pope. We ASSUME it will be from a revived Roman Empire. I've heard enough theories which challenge that assumption. Remember, England had its own Augustan Age. What makes you think, considering we're possibly entering our own, that we're somehow exempt from being cited in prophecy?

And for that matter, why are you convinced that there will be a Pre-Trib rapture in the first place? In light of Biblical History, that doesn't even connect, in ANY way shape or form. It's antithetical. For all any of us knows, the Catholic Church could be right, and it could be an Amillenial Rapture. One day, you're here, the next, it's "here, there, or in the air..."

Can we call this thread CLOSED? Or at least move it to the APPROPRIATE forum? ("Not Connected...") At least out of Love for Christ. I'm not dodging the issue; it's just not an appropriate subject for this forum.

[DrChinese]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.

That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

Answer: I would do the same thing I would do if God appeared in front of me tomorrow morning as I am getting out of the shower...

...I would revise my opinions based on new facts. Despite questions like this from people like you my entire life, I haven't had to do this yet. But I acknowledge the possibility. After all, I learn new things every day.

By the way, if God did appear tomorrow, perhaps I would become a Buddhist... who know what form God might take? My question back to you: when (and why) do you expect the rapture to occur?

[the_ignored]

Originally posted by neutrino_cannon
Is there a yearly convention for the people who write this stuff? Do they vote on what year sounds best for the end of the world? Do they come up with new nonsense, or do they just trot the old stuff out and wrap it up in new ribbons? Do they even eat? I mean, perfect time to loose weight, with the end of the world and all. Probably a little fasting wouldn't hurt, what given the devastation and smiting and plauge and all.

I officialy label them i-diots.
Actually, there is. See here (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?threadid=80388) for pictures and statments about their convention.

Yeah, these people are total wack jobs. See here (http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html) for their end times commentary. Hell, at one point, the guy blamed satan for his computer problems! (I may have posted that in this board somewhere, but I don't know, I'm looking at a couple of places where I could have put that article.)

I like this:
April 21
A President For Europe

Prime Minister Tony Blair of England sent shock waves through the prophetic community when the media announced that he is eyeing the possibility of becoming the first full-time president of Europe. He may seek the position once he steps down from office in August of next year.

Blair has backing from several fellow world leaders. Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, the former French president who chairs the convention on Europe’s future, agrees that the European Union needs a president if it is to punch its weight on the international stage. President Chirac of France was actually the first head of state to publicly propose the idea of Blair seeking the EU presidency. The leaders of Denmark and Sweden have quickly swung behind the plan.

According the early drafts of the EU constitution, the president would be elected by heads of government of member states and would hold office for five years. The proposed presidency is set for 2006, but the new EU foreign minister will likely be in business much sooner.

The creation of such a post would help to settle the decades-old question posed by Henry Kissinger of whom to call in Europe for any emergency. The current system has the EU presidency changing hands every six months. Many believe an EU president would add stability and make it easier for the EU to do business directly with America. A strong European leader could also help prevent a repetition of the bitter arguments that erupted over Iraq.

The proposal to create an EU presidency has "Antichrist" written all over it. I would go as far as to say the plan will eventually lead to Mr. 666 stepping onto the world stage. We have no way of knowing whether Tony Blair is the Antichrist. The original Book of Revelation didn’t come with pictures.

If the first president of the revived Roman Empire happens to be the Beast, Tony Blair might indeed be Satan’s man. In Revelation 17:12-14, we are told that 10 kings will rule with the Antichrist and they will elect him to power. The passage seems to imply that Europe will not have a series of leaders before the Antichrist comes to power.

“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast” (Revelation 17:12-14).

The most important issue at hand is the 10 leaders. The EU currently does not have a governing body with 10 seats of power. If one should arise, no end-time teacher on the planet would be able to come up with the words that would adequately describe the lateness of the hour.


or this (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?threadid=59593
)

[Brian the Snail]

Tony Blair is the Antichrist ?

:eek:

Well, it would certainly explain this anyway:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/179918/PAsmall.gif

[c4ts]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.


That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

I would be laughing so hard...

[Kopji]

I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.

That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

We have several fundamentalist Christians working in our manufacturing areas and have written coverage plans just in case.

We will be ready for when important leaders vanish, or dangerous equipment is suddenly left neglected. This will give us a strategic business advantage when the rapture comes.

We also adivse hospitals to employ non Christians in critical child care areas so there will not be a repeat of the "Egyptian Scenario(tm)".

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Kopji


We have several fundamentalist Christians working in our manufacturing areas and have written coverage plans just in case.

We will be ready for when important leaders vanish, or dangerous equipment is suddenly left neglected. This will give us a strategic business advantage when the rapture comes.

We also adivse hospitals to employ non Christians in critical child care areas so there will not be a repeat of the "Egyptian Scenario(tm)".

I sure hope you're joking, Kopji. This is getting silly.

You know, there's a whole lot more to Scripture than the Rapture. Seems to me that this thread has already gone on too long. Billiefan, and others, take note: the greatest danger I know is not missing the Rapture, but to be taken up in the Rapture without having lived!!!!!!

Get a clue! Don't you understand what the Bible was actually talking about?!?! What is the point of being saved IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WITH YOUR LIFE? What a childish and selfish way to live, and what a waste of what you've been given! Why don't you spit in God's face? That would make more sense. Just how gutless do you have to be to sit around and wait for Jesus to come take you out of all this! People sitting around reading Tim LaHaye's books, waiting for Jesus to show up, have demonstrated not that they love God, but that they have CONTEMPT for Him.

Wow. I'm going to sit around and wonder what happens to all my stuff when God comes and takes me out. Sure. What a f***ed up way to live your life.

IMBECILES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Roadtoad


I sure hope you're joking, Kopji. This is getting silly.

You know, there's a whole lot more to Scripture than the Rapture. Seems to me that this thread has already gone on too long. Billiefan, and others, take note: the greatest danger I know is not missing the Rapture, but to be taken up in the Rapture without having lived!!!!!!

Get a clue! Don't you understand what the Bible was actually talking about?!?! What is the point of being saved IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WITH YOUR LIFE? What a childish and selfish way to live, and what a waste of what you've been given! Why don't you spit in God's face? That would make more sense. Just how gutless do you have to be to sit around and wait for Jesus to come take you out of all this! People sitting around reading Tim LaHaye's books, waiting for Jesus to show up, have demonstrated not that they love God, but that they have CONTEMPT for Him.

Wow. I'm going to sit around and wonder what happens to all my stuff when God comes and takes me out. Sure. What a f***ed up way to live your life.

IMBECILES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said, I would be laughing very hard.

[Sindai]

I'd laugh too. Then I'd go load up onEarthquake insurance, bug spray...hmmm...what else...gotta dig out those Left Behind books again... :D

[Ossai]

Sindai
gotta dig out those Left Behind books again… Why would anyone subject themselves to reading that tripe? It's preachy, inane and badly written. :confused:

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
what makes you think we will all be killed.

The bible mentions that this is a world without end.

Frank Burns;

"Our father who art in heaven..."

Hawkeye;

"Ever see anything like this, babe?"

Duke;

"Na, not with anyone past 8 years old!"

Barkhorn.

[the_ignored]

from Ossai:
Why would anyone subject themselves to reading that tripe? It's preachy, inane and badly written.
Easy. By the end of this century, when our grandkids have grown up, this stuff will, if we've saved enough of those idiotic books (time capsules, maybe?) "left behind" they'll be able to see them and the beliefs that xians used to have. The people currently going for this crap now will be the laughingstock of the century.

It'll also guarantee that xians won't have any "deniablity" when they say in the future that "most chrisians back then didn't believe in that nonsense either". The bible was speaking metaphorically.

Perhaps this silliness will, in the end, help bring in the death-knell of fundyism in the future?

[Sindai]

Originally posted by Ossai
Sindai
Why would anyone subject themselves to reading that tripe? It's preachy, inane and badly written. :confused:

Well, it was a hypothetical situation. Very hypothetical.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Sindai


Well, it was a hypothetical situation. Very hypothetical.

Back when I worked in Christian radio, we used to call this sort of thing "fleecing the flock." Long story. I'm just glad I'm out of it.

[Kiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


Kiri,if people you love and care about are missing will you be looting their stuff?

NONE of the people I love and care about would be missing.

Anyway, haven't you noticed that almost everything I say is a stupid JOKE of some kind?

[Kiri]

Originally posted by headscratcher4


Why not? If people you "love" are missing because of the "rapture"...they don't need the stuff, they've gone to a better place where they don't need stuff...because, as we know, essentially heaven is the great Walmart in the sky...So, you might as well loot it...but loot is the wrong term, isn't it...'cause the "stuff" will be abandoned..so finders keeper probably applies...besides, better Kiri gets to use it rather than Satan!



A very good point, but it doesn't address the possibility that I AM Satan!

[Roadtoad]

Finally! The truth is out!

http://www.esquilax.com/baywatch/index.shtml

[billiefan2000]

bump

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
"Someday all born-again believers are going to suddenly find themselves caught-up into the heavenly realm to meet the Lord. The only remedy for this shocking event is to be on constant vigilance. "

Why would born-agains be seeking a remedy?
One would think they'd be actively seeking to be enraptured.

I do agree that the only remedy for this kind of thinking is constant vigilance against accepting woo-woo concepts.

[Roadtoad]

Regardless of all of this:

(1.) The "Rapture Index" is farcical. Even the Bible says that NOBODY knows the hour or day when the Rapture will take place. This sort of barbarity goes against the very same book they claim is their guide. If and when it happens, it happens. Quit wasting time with this drivel.

(2.) People who are waiting around to be "raptured" are a waste of my time and resources. So you got saved, and you're waiting for Jesus to take you home? Knock yourself out, babe, but the rest of us are worried about how we can scrape together a few extra bucks to help the homeless in our community, we're trying to find ways to make health care available to those in poverty, and there's even a few of us who think we ought to be doing something about improving the education of our kids. Either get with it and help, or get out of the way, but QUIT CALLING YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN, because frankly, Ace, you're anything but.

(3.) People have turned the Rapture into nothing more than a franchise. ("Come to the sign of the Golden Crosses!") There is no way that you will EVER convince me that this honors God in any way.

Having said that, I'll ask again that this thread be moved. This is neither religion or philosophy. It's become an insult.

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Kiri


NONE of the people I love and care about would be missing.

Anyway, haven't you noticed that almost everything I say is a stupid JOKE of some kind?


Kiri,that means you have no friends,or all you friends have turned their backs on the one and only Living SON OF GOD who's name is:

JESUS CHRIST

[Temporal Renegade]

But I just had to jump in here.

The main problem I have with the Rapture, is that it seems to me to be mainly a Christian conceit.
So, if a non-Christian (or an athiest), who lives their life 'without sin', but doesn't accept Jesus as their savior, they have an automatic ticket to Hell? If the Rapture comes about, anyone who doesn't fit the profile of someone who is 'saved' doesn't go to Heaven?

Sorry, I don't believe that. I don't see how that could work. My thoughts on this goes back to the times when the Christian God wasn't known in the Americas. Would an Aztec or an Inca who had absolutely NO concept of 'Christian vurtue and values' go to Hell, because they simply didn't know about them? How can you accept a Savior you know nothing about? And, would a Kind and Loving God condemn someone for simply not knowing?

Actually, it's not God I have a problem with; it's His Earthly 'spokespeople' that scare me...
:confused:

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
But I just had to jump in here.

The main problem I have with the Rapture, is that it seems to me to be mainly a Christian conceit.
So, if a non-Christian (or an athiest), who lives their life 'without sin', but doesn't accept Jesus as their savior, they have an automatic ticket to Hell? If the Rapture comes about, anyone who doesn't fit the profile of someone who is 'saved' doesn't go to Heaven?

Sorry, I don't believe that. I don't see how that could work. My thoughts on this goes back to the times when the Christian God wasn't known in the Americas. Would an Aztec or an Inca who had absolutely NO concept of 'Christian vurtue and values' go to Hell, because they simply didn't know about them? How can you accept a Savior you know nothing about? And, would a Kind and Loving God condemn someone for simply not knowing?

Actually, it's not God I have a problem with; it's His Earthly 'spokespeople' that scare me...
:confused:

Welcome to the Forum, TR. It's great to have you here.

Unfortunately, I was once one of those "spokespeople," so let me be among the first to offer you my heartfelt apologies for the unrighteous, hateful behavior of myself and others of my former ilk.

From what I've read, to tack onto what you're asking, if there was no concept, or means of access to the same, it's understood that God would accept those who tried to live the most virtuous life possible. (No, I don't know how it works. Since I'm not God, I'm not about to try and explain it. Why make myself out to be an even bigger ass? :D ) So, the short answer is, "No, a Kind and Loving God would not condemn someone for simple ignorance."

My own opinion, however, includes this: if the only contact you have with Christians is a warped one, much like you found in Salem in the 1600s, or Wenatchee, Washington just a few years ago, God could not, and would not, condemn someone to Hell based upon the actions of His servants. (Keep in mind, this is my considered OPINION, and cannot and should not be considered DOCTRINE. I very well may be very, very wrong.)

You may want to read back among the past posts I've made on this thread to get another view of the Rapture. Personally, I think WAY too much emphasis has been placed on this.

(Edited to correct grammatical errors.)

[Temporal Renegade]

I stand corrupted-um, corrected!:)

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
I stand corrupted-um, corrected!:)

:D :D :D

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
But I just had to jump in here.

The main problem I have with the Rapture, is that it seems to me to be mainly a Christian conceit.
So, if a non-Christian (or an athiest), who lives their life 'without sin', but doesn't accept Jesus as their savior, they have an automatic ticket to Hell? If the Rapture comes about, anyone who doesn't fit the profile of someone who is 'saved' doesn't go to Heaven?

Sorry, I don't believe that. I don't see how that could work. My thoughts on this goes back to the times when the Christian God wasn't known in the Americas. Would an Aztec or an Inca who had absolutely NO concept of 'Christian vurtue and values' go to Hell, because they simply didn't know about them? How can you accept a Savior you know nothing about? And, would a Kind and Loving God condemn someone for simply not knowing?


I believe the bible story which applies here is the one about the Pharisee and the publican. I believe that the Spirit of God convicts all men of the reality of sin, righteousness, and judgment. All men, even those pre-Columbian Aztecs and Incas you mention. And when we are confronted with the fact that we do indeed do things which we know we should not do, there are three basic responses to that conviction and that knowledge. The first is to say, "I don't care. Who are you to judge me, anyway?" This is the response of Satan. The second response is to say, "Well, maybe I'm not perfect, but I'm pretty good. I'm certainly better than [insert latest publicly exposed religious hypocrite here.] This is the response of the Pharisee. The third response--and the one which God is looking for--is to cry out, like the publican, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!"

I am convinced that whenever God hears that cry, he honors it, regardless of the "religious" background of the person who utters it. And I am convinced that there are a number of people from all religions and cultures, including the ancient Aztecs and Incas, among others, who have issued in and who have in fact been justified by God. I believe that, when the whole truth of the matter is known, there will in fact be such a full cross-section of humanity represented by these believers that it will be evident that there is no one, from any place and time, who has an excuse.

Does this mean that we who are Christians should stop spreading the Gospel to the ends of the earth? Not at all. Because while I believe that anyone can in fact issue that heart cry for repentance and forgiveness, I am convinced that the more that you know about the truth of Jesus Christ, his sacrifice and resurrection, and the written record of God's revelation of himself to mankind, the more likely you are to issue that call. And the more knowledge that you have of the mind and will of God, the greater will be the reward if you turn to him and the greater the condemnation you will receive if you reject him.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



Kiri,that means you have no friends,or all you friends have turned their backs on the one and only Living SON OF GOD who's name is:

JESUS CHRIST
I question the source of your information.

[Gregor]

Mr. Bowen

Thank you for your opinion, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, but whatever religion you are, it is not a Christian (as I will define it below).

Let me take the position that to be a "True Christian" (tm), you have believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. That is the only logically accurate definition (setting aside the Bible's internal errors for another debate thread).

If you think that the Bible is not inerrant, but contains some truth coupled with some myth, some hyperbole, some political message, some internecine disputes, and etc., then what authority do you have for the 'truth' of your belief?.

How do you cull the 'truth' from the other stuff in the Bible? The answer must be either (i) you elect to take some parts as true because it is consistent with your 'personal philosophy' and/or (ii) you had a personal revelation from god who told you what was true and what was error. This, then becomes the religion of Bowen - not Christianity. Since I did not get the same personal revelation and do not have the same personal philosophy, I'm not a Bowenite.

If I were a True Christian, I'd say that your post may allow you to sleep at night, but it's not scriptural. The True Christian God is not so forgiving. By way of example:

2 Thessalonians 3: "11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

[Temporal Renegade]

The following opinions are those only of the Poster, and not necessarily those of anyone else on these Forums. So there.

Religion is neither Right, nor Wrong. The beliefs of the individual are their own, and are therefor Right for them.
However, if someone follows different beliefs, or none at all, they are not Wrong, but are Right within themselves. There is no 'Real and True' religious belief; if there were, would it not stand to reason that it would be the only one?

I will readily admit, though, that I am not a religious scholar; I don't have shelves of tomes or reams of scrolls to look things up. My thoughts and opinions come from merely reading what I can find, and extrapolating from there. I was baptised as Catholic, but haven't attended Mass for a while... not as a form of protest, but because I could only sleep in on Sundays, due to my work schedule (yes, a totally selfish move, on my part!). But, just because I don't attend, I won't mock those who do, as that's not how I am.
As long as no one tries to 'Save' me, I don't have problems with them (a friend of mine is taking Ministry classes, and even though he knows my stance on these things, he is still my friend, and hasn't tried to Save me from the Fiery Pit. Thank- well, God!):D

As for the Rapture business...if you believe, fine. Give our regards to the Heavenly Host & all.
Of course, the only real way someone can find out about God & Heaven for sure, is to die. And that's a little too final for my liking!

"The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church." ~ ferdinand magellan

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
But I just had to jump in here.

The main problem I have with the Rapture, is that it seems to me to be mainly a Christian conceit.
So, if a non-Christian (or an athiest), who lives their life 'without sin', but doesn't accept Jesus as their savior, they have an automatic ticket to Hell? If the Rapture comes about, anyone who doesn't fit the profile of someone who is 'saved' doesn't go to Heaven?

Sorry, I don't believe that. I don't see how that could work. My thoughts on this goes back to the times when the Christian God wasn't known in the Americas. Would an Aztec or an Inca who had absolutely NO concept of 'Christian vurtue and values' go to Hell, because they simply didn't know about them? How can you accept a Savior you know nothing about? And, would a Kind and Loving God condemn someone for simply not knowing?

Actually, it's not God I have a problem with; it's His Earthly 'spokespeople' that scare me...
:confused:

Most of them scare me too......and I am one!:rolleyes:

I don't believe that only those who proclaim Christ will be in *Heaven*.

As for the rapture, I am not sure I believe in that concept. Not all Christians are believers in the *Rapture* or the end times stuff.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by ehbowen


I believe the bible story which applies here is the one about the Pharisee and the publican. I believe that the Spirit of God convicts all men of the reality of sin, righteousness, and judgment. All men, even those pre-Columbian Aztecs and Incas you mention. And when we are confronted with the fact that we do indeed do things which we know we should not do, there are three basic responses to that conviction and that knowledge. The first is to say, "I don't care. Who are you to judge me, anyway?" This is the response of Satan. The second response is to say, "Well, maybe I'm not perfect, but I'm pretty good. I'm certainly better than [insert latest publicly exposed religious hypocrite here.] This is the response of the Pharisee. The third response--and the one which God is looking for--is to cry out, like the publican, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!"

I am convinced that whenever God hears that cry, he honors it, regardless of the "religious" background of the person who utters it. And I am convinced that there are a number of people from all religions and cultures, including the ancient Aztecs and Incas, among others, who have issued in and who have in fact been justified by God. I believe that, when the whole truth of the matter is known, there will in fact be such a full cross-section of humanity represented by these believers that it will be evident that there is no one, from any place and time, who has an excuse.



That's the same way I see it too!:)

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Gregor
If I were a True Christian, I'd say that your post may allow you to sleep at night, but it's not scriptural. The True Christian God is not so forgiving.

Well, Gregor, that's true. God is not particularly forgiving. He's not exactly what I'd call a "Teddy Bear" of a God.

But, if you reread what you're citing, and examine a little more closely, you realize that scripture is more open than you first realized. The Bible does not say what you WANT it to say.

That's a tough lesson. And you learn it the hard way, no matter how many books you have on the shelf about the Bible. (And I've got lots of books on the shelf, lemme tell ya!:D )

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Gregor
Mr. Bowen

Thank you for your opinion, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, but whatever religion you are, it is not a Christian (as I will define it below).

Ooooooooo-kaaay.... For the sake of argument I will let you take the position that you know more about my beliefs than I do.

Let me take the position that to be a "True Christian" (tm), you have believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. That is the only logically accurate definition (setting aside the Bible's internal errors for another debate thread).

No, the logically accurate position is that to be a True Christian you must be a regenerated (born-again) believer and willing follower of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ; a present citizen and future resident of the Kingdom of God. Many True Christians, it is true, do in fact believe in the inerrancy of the Bible; I am convinced that this is in fact the correct position to take. But it is not mandatory. My personal take on the doctrine of inerrancy may, as well, differ from your definition of "inerrant"; I take it to mean that the original authors wrote down exactly what God wanted them to write.

If you think that the Bible is not inerrant, but contains some truth coupled with some myth, some hyperbole, some political message, some internecine disputes, and etc., then what authority do you have for the 'truth' of your belief?.

How do you cull the 'truth' from the other stuff in the Bible? The answer must be either (i) you elect to take some parts as true because it is consistent with your 'personal philosophy' and/or (ii) you had a personal revelation from god who told you what was true and what was error. This, then becomes the religion of Bowen - not Christianity. Since I did not get the same personal revelation and do not have the same personal philosophy, I'm not a Bowenite.

Your question of how to extract the true meaning from the Bible is a reasonable one; however, there is more to it than 'personal philosophies.' First let us begin with a definition of what the Bible is: It is more than just some holy book; it is the written record of God's revelation of himself to mankind. Second, if you accept the doctrine of inerrancy as I defined it above, then you must accept that every single word which survived the selection process and was included in the Bible is exactly what God wanted to say about these subjects at the time those words were written. Keeping that in mind, you can then begin to search for unifying themes, or doctrines. These themes, and the way in which they develop as more information and revelation is received, give insight as to the true meaning.

The end result of the process, you must remember, is not to organize a religion, but to come to know a person: God. Through scripture he reveals his nature and character, and as we come to know the truth of the scriptures better we come to understand the nature and character of that person better. And you must keep in mind that it is a complex personality. The various sections of scripture which you may like to think of as "contradictions" in fact are revealing different perspectives, both true, about God's nature and character. Yes, there are numerous passages in Scripture which talk of God's righteous judgement, and I am convinced that God does stand ready to judge the wicked. But that complements and does not negate the references to him as a God who "is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy."

If I were a True Christian, I'd say that your post may allow you to sleep at night, but it's not scriptural. The True Christian God is not so forgiving. By way of example:

2 Thessalonians 3: "11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

That is true, but remember the three forms of response which I mentioned in my previous post? This verse makes it quite clear that the delusion is sent for those "who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." If you take pleasure in doing those things which God hates, he is going to give you every opportunity to do as your heart desires. He is going to answer your prayer! And that is one reason I believe the world is in the state it is in now; God is giving to those who would oppress and exploit others the opportunity to do as they wish and to 'get away' with it--for a season. Only for a season.

One final thing I'd like to share about the nature and character of God, something which came to me as I was writing this post, in fact: God generally shows his stern side up front. It is only later, as you get past the initial impression and begin to know him as a person, that you begin to see that he truly is loving, compassionate, even gentle--the perfect Father. I think that it is no accident that the OT paints a different picture of God than the NT. And I personally do not believe that God has finished revealing himself to mankind; I believe that when we know the whole picture, we will truly understand his loving and compassionate side even more.

[Gregor]

Mr. Bowen
Thank you for your reply and for so completely and utterly proving my point. Xians have a personal (not Bible-based) philosophy, yet they claim to base it upon the Bible.
Inerrancy apologists take the exact position you do, and they neither analyze the argument that I make nor make logically consistent arguments in support of their position. You really do not refute my assertion that your belief system is what you have interpreted from the Bible, not what the Bible say.

Quote 1: “[T]he logically accurate position is that to be a True Christian you must be a regenerated (born-again) believer and willing follower of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ; a present citizen and future resident of the Kingdom of God.”
Response 1: I disagree. What teachings do you follow? Do you honor the Feast of Weeks? Do you adhere to the OT laws – all of them? If not, you’re going to hell, as Jesus said in Matt 7,” 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” This was written about those who abandoned the OT laws in favor of Paulian ‘new covenantism’.

Quote 2: “I take it to mean that the original authors wrote down exactly what God wanted them to write.”
Response 2: Good luck figuring out what that is. www.atheists.org/church/realbible.html

Quote 3: “[The Bible] is more than just some holy book; it is the written record of God's revelation of himself to mankind. “
Response 3: Special pleading and circular argument– the Bible is right, because the Bible is right

Quote 4: “ you must accept that every single word which survived the selection process and was included in the Bible is exactly what God wanted to say about these subjects at the time those words were written. Keeping that in mind, you can then begin to search for unifying themes, or doctrines.”
Response 4: i.e. you are charged with trying to square inconsistent statements in the Bible, regardless of how convoluted your argument may be. Here is where your personal philosophy starts to creep in.

Quote 5: “The end result of the process, you must remember, is not to organize a religion, but to come to know a person: God.
Response 5: No, the result is to try and shoe-horn together different positions taken by hundreds of men over hundreds of years – the aim of which was to say who gets eternal life and who gets the shaft.

Quote 6: “Through scripture he reveals his nature and character, and as we come to know the truth of the scriptures better we come to understand the nature and character of that person better. “
Response 6: Through scripture we reveal that the Jerusalem group disliked Paul and his followers, so Matt was designed to anathemize Paul. We reveal that the gospel of Thomas was excluded from the Bible because it supported those heretical Gnostics. We reveal that in the editing process entire concepts were changed.

Quote 7: “I am convinced . . . “
Response 7: Proof of my argument – it becomes your personal philosophy, not the Bible. Tell me, where did the concept of the ‘age of accountability’ come from? It’s not in the Bible. The NT says that at the end times, I’d hate to be with child – implicitly because those innocents are going to hell.

Quote 8: “God does stand ready to judge the wicked.”
Response 8: God stands ready to judge alcoholics, who will not enter the kingdom of heaven – how wicked are they? The God of Matt condemns those who do not follow the OT law – how wicked are they?

Quote 9: “If you take pleasure in doing those things which God hates, he is going to give you every opportunity to do as your heart desires. He is going to answer your prayer! And that is one reason I believe . . . “

Response 9: Again, the gospels of the Bowenites


Quote 10 “Only for a season.”

Response 10: Jesus promised to return before all of the apostles died – he’s 1,900 years late.


Quote 11: “something which came to me as I was writing this post, in fact: God generally shows his stern side up front. . . And I personally do not believe that God has finished revealing himself to mankind; I believe that when we know the whole picture, we will truly understand his loving and compassionate side even more.”

Response 11: Could you prove my point any better?


You started you post assuming the inerrancy of the Bible, and you ended it saying that God talks to you personally. You’ll pardon me if I disagree with your initial position and assert lack of evidence for your final position.

[Gregor]

Mr. Bowen - any response?

[EdwardG]

Originally posted by c4ts


Just out of curiosity, what's a diot?
I am a research scientist with Sprint Advanced Technology Labs in Burlingame, California. (http://www.sprintlabs.com/People/diot/)

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Kiri


Easy! Loot all their best stuff!!
There is a tradition amongst the people who play MMORPGs (like EverQuest and Dark Age of Camelot and so on). People post complaints about how the game sucks on message boards, and threaten to cancel their account unless things are changed for the better. Now, one of the things you spend the most time doing in these games is acquring objects. So the most common response is to post back: "Can I have your stuff?" (I.e. the only thing I cared about in your post was the fact that you are leaving, so can I have your stuff before you go)

I'w with Kiri: when some rapture-head starts boobling about his imminent departure, my response is: "Can I have your stuff?"


Temporarily Insane
The beliefs of the individual are their own, and are therefor Right for them.
So... if my beliefs are that I should hit you over the head and take your stuff... it would right for me to do that. And if your beliefs are that you should help other people obtain moral behaviour (that is one of your beliefs, right?), then you should let me.

Can I have your stuff?

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by ehbowen


God is giving to those who would oppress and exploit others the opportunity to do as they wish and to 'get away' with it--for a season. Only for a season.

God needs a new calendar - yes??

God generally shows his stern side up front. It is only later, as you get past the initial impression and begin to know him as a person, that you begin to see that he truly is loving, compassionate, even gentle--the perfect Father.

So - according to you - he's kind of like an omnipotent Lou Grant??


Yikkes!


Barkhorn.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Yahzi


So... if my beliefs are that I should hit you over the head and take your stuff... it would right for me to do that. And if your beliefs are that you should help other people obtain moral behaviour (that is one of your beliefs, right?), then you should let me.

Can I have your stuff?

No, you can't hit me over the head and take my stuff.

But, if I get raptured, out, hey, knock yourself out!:D

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Gregor
Mr. Bowen - any response?

What kind of response are you looking for? You began this exchange by erecting a huge strawman, and then proceeded oh-so-happily to knock it down. Even a cursory examination of Christian doctrine and teaching would have shown you that Christian beliefs and practices are based both on the past revelation of the Scriptures and the present illumination of the indwelling Holy Spirit. As for the question of whether or not I am a "true Christian", that is not yours to decide. Ask Jesus Christ when you see him. And, oh, yes, you will.

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x


God needs a new calendar - yes??

I have often felt the same way. But I have come to believe that, in time, we will--all of us--agree that God acted at exactly the right time and in exactly the right way.

Some of us, I readily admit, may take a lot longer to come to that conclusion than others.

[Gregor]

No strawman required.

A question arose in this thread about the Rapture and the condemnation of the unsaved to hell.

Many days ago, you posted your position that pre-columbian, Mayans Indians could go to heaven, based upon some ad hoc rationalization of scripture (which I assert is directly contrary to the clear language of the book).

As a result, I raised one of my objections to Xians who first claim to use the Bible, but its really a smoke screen to make their doctrine more palatable to the general public - (i.e. don't worry, children younger than the age of accountability don't go to hell).

I posited that Xians frequently claim that their beliefs are based upon the Bible, but when the rubber meets the road - it's really their personal beliefs glossed with ad hoc biblical interpretation. (Although to be more accurate, it's typically the interpretation made by an apologist like Josh McDowell, that was preached by their pastor, that is now their personal doctrine).

You proved my point.

Your response was that you believe in Biblical inerrancy, but when it comes to application to the world, you base your position solely upon divine revelation to YOU. Why not abandon the crutch of the Bible and just say "God speaks to me daily, and this is what will happen in the future." If you say "well, it's got to be based upon the Bible, first," I feel free to ask why are you abandoning other clear passages in the Bible.

[consumptive_womble]

I've now read the whole thread and can't for the life of me remember what we were arguing about in the first place.

The post that sticks out in my mind if BillieFan's, questioning how we would feel if the people we loved and cared about were taken in the rapture.

I have very good friends who are Christians. Some believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. They believe that dinosaurs existed, in the form of the behemoth... and then embedded themselves in rock and turned to stone for no apparent reason. When questioned, they believe in evolution (I outlined Darwin's bird studies in the Gal.. the Galoupig... those islands beginning with "G"), but at the same time, they refuse to believe that there is any link between man and apes, and think that everything was created by God.

Basically I've come to realise that no matter how much they contradict themselves, how little they actually know about what they believe - I'm yet to meet a Christian who has actually fully read the bible, start to finish - they just want to believe in it. Of course the rapture is ridiculous, as is so much in Christianity, but maybe trying to persuade people to take a reasoned look at actual facts, and then re-evaluate things is just as bad as them telling us to ignore the facts and believe in their more theatrical philosophy (You've got to admit, religions tend to have outstanding production values... if piss-poor continuity).

Then again, believe what I believe or not, in my view we all get the same, our existence just stops. From their point of view, I'm going to burn eternally for my questioning nature and for having a problem with contradictions.

[Temporal Renegade]

Recently I got into a discussion with someone (not my aforementioned friend) about The Rapture, Heaven, Hell, and all that.
Seems that, since I don't Believe Freely and Totally in Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I (and others like me) are, in fact, condemned to ETERNAL PAIN AND SUFFERING!! (their emphesis) There was no debate... you don't believe, you're screwed. Period. Oh well. Looks like that's it for me, then.

I guess I should be worried, but I just can't help thinking that God would judge someone on the way they live-what they do, how they think, who they help, etc.
God judges, but People pass the sentence...




Dougal: God, I've heard about those cults Ted. People dressing up in black and saying Our Lord's going to come back and
save us all.
Ted: No, Dougal, that's us. That's Catholicism.
Dougal: Oh right.
--FATHER TED

[Loki]

ehbowen,

I just can't let this go by ...

God generally shows his stern side up front.
You call it a "stern side"!! He's a heartless, brutal, psychopathic killer! Exodus is no "stern side" - it's the wholesale slaughter of children.

Exodus 12:29 - "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."

Exodus 12:30 - "And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
Think about that for a moment. God killed *all* the first born children of every Egyptian family - every single one, male and female. Even the families of servants and prisoners (ie, those that had no power in Egyptian society) were not spared.

Lets translate this into a more contemporary setting. Assume it's 1945, and Germany is not defeated. The Allies discover (a) they cannot quickly defeat Hitler and (b) the Jews are being exterminated in concentraton camps. The Allies have just invented a new weapon - an atomic bomb that kills only children!! The allied high command issues an ultimatum to Hitler - release the Jews, or we drop the bomb and kill all your children. Hitler says "no". Do you honestly think the Allies are being "stern but fair" if they proceed to drop the bomb and kill all the children in Germany?

Of course, the above analogy is slightly flawed. In Exodus, it's god that holds the weapon. But being god, he can choose from any weapon in his armoury. Why use the "Child-Buster" bomb? Why not the "Adult-Buster", or the "Pharaoh-Buster", or the "Egyptian-Military-Personnel-buster" bomb?

But it gets worse! Why did god choose this particularly violent and completely barbaric form of retribution? The bible tells us clearly what he was thinking...
Exodus 10:1 - "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him"

Exodus 11:9 - "And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt"
Exodus 11:10 - "And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. "
God deliberately intervened in the discussion between Moses and Pharaoh, and forced Pharaoh to reject Moses' request simply so that he would then have a pretext for unleashing his 'wonders'. God intended, right from the start, to kill the children! He set Pharaoh up! - Pharaoh was just a stooge used in an elaborate demonstration of god's power. A demonstration that left thousands of children dead.

It is only later, as you get past the initial impression and begin to know him as a person, that you begin to see that he truly is loving, compassionate, even gentle--the perfect Father.
Leaving aside that fact that the thousands of dead Egyptian children were never given an opportunity to "get past the initial impression" (hey - the "initial impression" resulted in their death!), I'd suggest that this is far from the perfect Father. This is far more like the Father that sees his child break a glass in a fit of temper, so he decides to break all the fingers on both hands of the child to "teach them a lesson".

Stern is not the word that comes to mind...

[Roadtoad]

I guess I'm one of those few who've actually read the Bible, cover to cover.

Loki, as an FYI, the Pharoah of Egypt was given multiple opportunities to release the Israelites. Each time, he pulled a fast one. After nine prior warnings, God, (as you choose to identify or recognize Him), basically said that enough was enough. I'm cutting this very, very short, and leaving out a lot, but it seemed appropriate to respond to what you posted.

Yes, God "hardened Pharoah's heart," but at some point, we're still allowed an opportunity to take responsibility for our actions, and take a positive step forward. As I said, there's more to the story. I leave it to you to read it, as you choose, and take some time to think about it. I don't think I'll have an answer that will satisfy you. (Nor will I claim to have a perfectly accurate answer you'll be able to hang your hat on. Sorry. I guess I'm not a "good Christian" as some on this site, both believers and non, would define it.):D

As to the rest of it, if you've been given a flawed view of God, you're not exactly going to be leaping at the opportunity to join the likes of Falwell, Swaggart, Bakker, multiple pedophile priests, and any number of occasionally well-meaning loudmouths. Somehow, if I had to guess, I'd say a truly Just God would recognize that. Sorry, Billiefan.

[the_ignored]

http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html
June 2
Rapture Ready Needs Your Support


Nearly all Christians agree that the world is in desperate need of finding salvation in Jesus Christ; however, when it comes to actually getting involved in the process of evangelism, most believers lack the will to take action.
I have repeatedly witnessed a dismal response rate to nearly every appeal I’ve made for reaching the lost with the end-time message. Some days, I just can’t believe that a couple hundred thousand people are regularly visiting Rapture Ready. Last week, I asked everyone to help get the book into local libraries and only a few people responded to my appeal. I knew the response would be extremely low, with many stores still not having the book stock, but I thought maybe around 10 folks would show interest. This is why I ordered so many books myself from walmart.com.
The question in my mind is not what good you can do for the site. What I’m wondering is what good I am doing you. The building of the site and the financial support always has come from myself and a small handful of people. In order for my efforts to be some benefit to you pre-rapture believers, I need to prod you folks into becoming more active in evangelistic endeavors.
I've said this before: If everyone suddenly decided to write a personal testimony or a new article, I would be hopelessly swamped from the inflow. There’s no way for me to even read that many articles, let alone post them to the site. I know from years of experience that this will never happen.
Something regularly occurs that shows how difficult it is to get people involved in the Lord’s work. Every few weeks, I receive letter from people who have read one of my of articles and feel convicted about their lack of support for the promotion of the Gospel message. The writers ask me what they can do to help out, and I reply by telling them everything they can do to help promote the site. After our initial email exchange, I rarely hear from them again.
The most pressing need for the site is financial support. Donating funds to the site has always been the easiest way for people to help out. Because I’ve been so busy with the site's content, I’ve allowed the giving rate to decline sharply. It’s a basic rule for any ministry: If you don’t frequently mention the need, the funds will not come in.
I currently have two graphic designers working on various pages for the site. Angie is still going through the site to clean up grammatical errors. I am making plans to have a local Omaha company produce a CD version of the Rapture Ready site. In July, I’m going to be down in Orlando, Florida to purchase more rare books that we will scan and add to the Christian Classics page.
To help with the cost of all these projects, you will find two options on the Donation Depot page. If you have an idea for a new web page or you think you can improve an existing page, please feel free to contact me. The main goal is productivity. I work on this site every day, sometimes late at night. As I’m typing now, it’s going on 1 AM, and I have to go to work in a few hours.
I don’t mind the long hours because I know the good my work is doing, and I also realize this opportunity will never repeat itself. A thousand years from now, I’ll probably be wishing I had stayed up until 2 AM to further polish this week’s update.

[Loki]

Roadtoad,

(Had this ready to post yesterday, but the Forum collapsed just as I hit the "send" button)

I guess I'm one of those few who've actually read the Bible, cover to cover.
You're not alone. I assume that this opening line is meant to imply that you consider my comments to be "uninformed" or incorrect because I'm taking Exodus 'out of context'? I'll deal with the 'context' issue in a minute, but for now, it's true enough to say that I believe Exodus *should* be viewed in isolation in this case. ehbowen wants to paint his biblical god as occasionally 'stern'. Leaving aside whatever else god may be (kind, gentle, etc), I'm simply focusing in on the 'stern' part. Sorry, but Exodus goes way past 'stern' in my opinion.

Loki, as an FYI, the Pharoah of Egypt was given multiple opportunities to release the Israelites.
Quite true. God, via Moses, was prepared to take the negotiations slowly. A bit like the US trying to get Saddam to disarm, I suppose. Sanctions, diplomacy, each time upping the ante a little.

Each time, he pulled a fast one.
Also true, although god's 'hardening' of pharaohs heart is still a factor even here in the initial 'bargaining' stages.

After nine prior warnings, God, (as you choose to identify or recognize Him), basically said that enough was enough.
Yes he did - and god immediate killed tens of thousands of children to prove his point. A similar analogy would be if, after repeated warnings to Saddam, the US finally lost patience, and sent teams of snipers into Iraq to kill large numbers of Iraqi children - but not to target Saddam! Really, the point seems clear - god visited the punishment upon those who had not commited the crime!

Yes, God "hardened Pharoah's heart," but at some point, we're still allowed an opportunity to take responsibility for our actions, and take a positive step forward.
Unless, of course, you happened to be the firstborn child of an Egyptian family - in which case you got absolutely no choice whatsoever to take responsibility pharaoh's actions. Instead of choice, you got summarily executed for having the audacity to be born to Egyptian parents.

As I said, there's more to the story. I leave it to you to read it, as you choose, and take some time to think about it.
Read it more than once, thought about it. Always interested in a 'christian' perspective on this particular example of god's "sterness". Not quite the perfect Father-figure ?

I don't think I'll have an answer that will satisfy you.
Well, feel free to try! The normal response is to run with the 'context' issue. In other words, sure it looks nasty, but you can't make an omlette without breaking eggs. Slight variations include "who are we to judge god...", or "but Jesus shows that god has a nice side...". And of course there's "his plan is beyond our understanding...".

Just answer this - can you think of *any* situation at all (be as hypothetical as you like) in which you believe it would be appropriate for the President of the United States to order the execution of thousands of healthy, innocent children? Apparently, a 'stern, but fatherly' god can ... please, keep that kind of father away from my children.

[Loki]

the_ignored,

(from the Rapture Ready site...)
A thousand years from now, I’ll probably be wishing I had stayed up until 2 AM to further polish this week’s update.
There's confidence for you!

[Loki]

I seem to be wandering up a sidetrack by myself at the moment, but I'll continue anyway....

One more detail regarding Exodus - just how dumb were the Egyptians! One morning, every household in Egyptian awoke to find at least one dead person in the house. When they ran outside to seek help, they discovered that *all* their neighbours were in the same boat. And this tragedy extended across all social boundaries - the affliction when to the very highest levels, and throughout the priesthood, bureaucracy, etc. Shortly thereafter, Pharaoh and the entire Egyptian army were drowned!

Tens of thousands of dead spread throughout every town and village, their leader killed, and their army destroyed to a man. How did the Egyptian nation react? They promptly forgot about!

They wrote nothing down about this. Apparently, it wasn't worth noting?

They didn't stop believing in their gods, and switch to Yahweh, despite the overwhelming evidence presented to them of god's existence (and the notable absence of the Egyptian gods during the plagues).

Come to think of it, why did god let such a golden opportunity to spread his faith go to waste? He'd revealed his existence to the Egyptians in the most emphatic way, but then promptly turned his back on the shattered nation, and allowed them to resume worshiping their various false idols. "He works in mysterious ways...."

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Loki
I seem to be wandering up a sidetrack by myself at the moment, but I'll continue anyway....

One more detail regarding Exodus - just how dumb were the Egyptians! One morning, every household in Egyptian awoke to find at least one dead person in the house. When they ran outside to seek help, they discovered that *all* their neighbours were in the same boat. And this tragedy extended across all social boundaries - the affliction when to the very highest levels, and throughout the priesthood, bureaucracy, etc. Shortly thereafter, Pharaoh and the entire Egyptian army were drowned!

Tens of thousands of dead spread throughout every town and village, their leader killed, and their army destroyed to a man. How did the Egyptian nation react? They promptly forgot about!

They wrote nothing down about this. Apparently, it wasn't worth noting?

They didn't stop believing in their gods, and switch to Yahweh, despite the overwhelming evidence presented to them of god's existence (and the notable absence of the Egyptian gods during the plagues).

Come to think of it, why did god let such a golden opportunity to spread his faith go to waste? He'd revealed his existence to the Egyptians in the most emphatic way, but then promptly turned his back on the shattered nation, and allowed them to resume worshiping their various false idols. "He works in mysterious ways...."

Have to admit, Loki, that was one that has kept me up nights, too. (BTW, like your sig. That was a funny, funny, flick.) According to one account I had, the priests in Egypt managed to keep that one out of the history books. Let's face it: there's more than enough in AMERICAN history that doesn't make it into the books because it makes someone uncomfortable. (Ever hear about the Blackfoot Treaties? Thought not....)

One thing I can point to:

Early in the Book of Exodus, Pharoah ordered the murder of every Hebrew male born in Egypt. The way I see it, you can view the events surrounding the Passover as retribution for Egypt's slaughter of innocent children. That's one possible key. It's not the only one, but it's one step.

I'm not suggesting that I'm the only one here who's read the Bible. Obviously, (and this was clear to me when this debate began), you have. I could wish more people who claim to be Christians would do the same. You're more faithful than most of my bretheren! (Go fig!)

Look, I'm going to say this one more time. And then, maybe, juuuuuust maybe, we can kiss this thread goodbye, once and for all: The Book of Revelation is being misused! It is not, never has been, never will be, is not intended to be, never was intended to be, cannot be, should not be, and to the faithful, will not be used as a Roadmap to Rapture, nor is it supposed to be some sort of marketing franchise. The Book of Revelation was written to encourage the believers who were suffering persecution during the waning days of the Roman Empire.

It was included in the final cut of what constituted the Canon, if you will, because it was found to be encouraging even today. Bear in mind the central message: "You do not know when your time on Earth shall end, or how it shall end. You have a limited time here in the frame of eternity. Make the best use of your time that you can." It is a lesson for all people, and it applies to you regardless of your philosophy, your religion, your politics, your whatever.

I am thoroughly sick of the cowardly, craven, gutless simpering of these people who CLAIM to be Christians, and their bleating about Jesus coming to take them away from all the heartbreak, the sin, the grief that surrounds this life. You know something? THAT'S PART OF LIFE, YOU DUMBSH**S! You were NOT given life so you could avoid LIVING!

THAT has been my biggest complaint with this miserable thread, and frankly, I'm sick of "certain peoples'" digs, jibes, and insults to others about this. Most of the people who are "waiting for Jesus" can't be bothered to contribute to their local Food Banks, they can't be bothered to put in some time as volunteers at a local AIDS foundation, they can't be bothered to help do carpentry for a neighbor who's a shut-in, or quite frankly, they can't be bothered to do much of anything that requires them to extend a hand to another person and contribute something of real value. (But, they do tithe! Woopdie-sh**...)

As someone who once considered vocational ministry, I ultimately decided against it when I caught Hell from everyone because I gave food to the hungry, shelter to those who had none, clothing to the naked. Me? I'm just a truck driver, who really doesn't have his act together. (Trust me, Loki, if they were to put us side by side, they'd immediately figure out I'm the one who doesn't have his act together.) I do the best I can with what I've got. And I ain't got much.

Truth to tell, I'm not so different from anyone else, atheist, agnostic, or believer. I have a real problem, when it gets right down to it, being a guy who's not hitting on all eight, knowing damn well that I'm supposed to be saved, sanctified, and the like, but knowing that there are better people than me who are (according to the interpretation of others) damned to an eternity of misery. My Dad was one of the kindest, most generous people I ever knew. But, he never once professed faith in Christ. So, am I supposed to simply sit back and accept this notion that a good, honest, honorable man is spending eternity in misery because he had an occasional beer, swore a little, and never said "Christ is Lord"?

Yeah, I'm in the midst of a crisis of faith. I'm not a "good" Christian. Maybe, though, we need a few more "bad" Christians around. Just a thought.

[the_ignored]

Originally posted by Roadtoad


...

Look, I'm going to say this one more time. And then, maybe, juuuuuust maybe, we can kiss this thread goodbye, once and for all: The Book of Revelation is being misused! It is not, never has been, never will be, is not intended to be, never was intended to be, cannot be, should not be, and to the faithful, will not be used as a Roadmap to Rapture, nor is it supposed to be some sort of marketing franchise. The Book of Revelation was written to encourage the believers who were suffering persecution during the waning days of the Roman Empire.

It was included in the final cut of what constituted the Canon, if you will, because it was found to be encouraging even today. Bear in mind the central message: "You do not know when your time on Earth shall end, or how it shall end. You have a limited time here in the frame of eternity. Make the best use of your time that you can." It is a lesson for all people, and it applies to you regardless of your philosophy, your religion, your politics, your whatever.

I am thoroughly sick of the cowardly, craven, gutless simpering of these people who CLAIM to be Christians, and their bleating about Jesus coming to take them away from all the heartbreak, the sin, the grief that surrounds this life. You know something? THAT'S PART OF LIFE, YOU DUMBSH**S! You were NOT given life so you could avoid LIVING!
Amen, "brother"!

Heh. Too bad it doesn't seem to have reached these people (http://www.gonethefilm.com/). Mind you, they say that saving souls is the intent...

THAT has been my biggest complaint with this miserable thread, and frankly, I'm sick of "certain peoples'" digs, jibes, and insults to others about this. Most of the people who are "waiting for Jesus" can't be bothered to contribute to their local Food Banks, they can't be bothered to put in some time as volunteers at a local AIDS foundation, they can't be bothered to help do carpentry for a neighbor who's a shut-in, or quite frankly, they can't be bothered to do much of anything that requires them to extend a hand to another person and contribute something of real value. (But, they do tithe! Woopdie-sh**...)

As someone who once considered vocational ministry, I ultimately decided against it when I caught Hell from everyone because I gave food to the hungry, shelter to those who had none, clothing to the naked. Me? I'm just a truck driver, who really doesn't have his act together. (Trust me, Loki, if they were to put us side by side, they'd immediately figure out I'm the one who doesn't have his act together.) I do the best I can with what I've got. And I ain't got much.

Truth to tell, I'm not so different from anyone else, atheist, agnostic, or believer. I have a real problem, when it gets right down to it, being a guy who's not hitting on all eight, knowing damn well that I'm supposed to be saved, sanctified, and the like, but knowing that there are better people than me who are (according to the interpretation of others) damned to an eternity of misery. My Dad was one of the kindest, most generous people I ever knew. But, he never once professed faith in Christ. So, am I supposed to simply sit back and accept this notion that a good, honest, honorable man is spending eternity in misery because he had an occasional beer, swore a little, and never said "Christ is Lord"?

Yeah, I'm in the midst of a crisis of faith. I'm not a "good" Christian. Maybe, though, we need a few more "bad" Christians around. Just a thought.
Again, I agree. You may be one of the few religious people I know who I could get along with! (given my experience on some "other boards"!)

[Loki]

RoadToad,

I hope you understand that my original post was aimed solely at ehbowen's description of god as "stern" - everything that I've posted since is in the context of that comment! (so yes, I've been hijacking the thread). The Rapture stuff seems so silly that I pay little attention to it (or anyone that takes it seriously)

Pharoah ordered the murder of every Hebrew male born in Egypt. The way I see it, you can view the events surrounding the Passover as retribution for Egypt's slaughter of innocent children.
Yes, retribution/revenge/justice is often used as an explanation (I think I forgot to list that one yesterday). Again, however, the "evil and nasty" pharaoh kills innocent Hebrew children. So, the "stern but nice" god kills innocent Egyptian children in retaliation. "But he started it..." seems to be the defence here!

Trust me, Loki, if they were to put us side by side, they'd immediately figure out I'm the one who doesn't have his act together
Well, I don't know you apart from your postings here, but it seems to me you'd be someone I'd be happy to spend some time side by side with.

I do the best I can with what I've got. And I ain't got much.
At a minimum you've got honesty, and humour. That's a lot, in my book.

My Dad was one of the kindest, most generous people I ever knew. But, he never once professed faith in Christ.
Always a problem for me ... can't quite understand why any kind of decent god would want to emphasise sucha trivial thing ("do you accept that Jesus was resurrected") over *every other thing*a person can do in their life (good and bad).

Yeah, I'm in the midst of a crisis of faith.
I doubt my faith was ever really strong enough for me to say I had a 'crisis' when it finally withered away. It certainly feels invigorating to me to stand here now and see the world without a christian veil.

I'm not a "good" Christian. Maybe, though, we need a few more "bad" Christians around.
You have my vote for "christian of the month"! And I agree that a few more people focused on living and dealing with the real world is always a good thing.

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Loki
ehbowen,

I just can't let this go by ...


You call it a "stern side"!! He's a heartless, brutal, psychopathic killer! Exodus is no "stern side" - it's the wholesale slaughter of children.


I'm not going to argue your points; actually, I believe they are valid. I'm going to content myself with this: Be very, very careful when you judge the actions of someone in a different place and time through the moral filter of your own culture and background; when you do, I believe you are opening up the possibility for others to judge you. Keep in mind that this was a time before the plebiscite, before the Magna Carta, before the Virginia Bill of Rights. What were the generally accepted rules of war in the ancient middle east?

I am not saying that morality is relative; I believe it is absolute. But I believe that it is an absolute which all of us--God and man included--are in the process of discovering, one painful lesson at a time. I believe that God is good because he has made the free will choice to reach out to what is good and right and highest and best at every step along the way. If you were to sit down and speak frankly with him, I believe that he would admit that, at times, he had been wrong. And I believe that, when all is said and done, he will accept the full responsibility for those mistakes.

[Loki]

Eric,

Be very, very careful when you judge the actions of someone in a different place and time through the moral filter of your own culture and background; when you do, I believe you are opening up the possibility for others to judge you.
Absolutely! Humanism has no problem with the concept you are espousing here - in fact, it's a central tenet really!

But I believe that it is an absolute which all of us--God and man included--are in the process of discovering.
Gotta love the degree to which you've worked on this Eric! Unlike Christian, who has to eventually fall back on a "we can't know god" defense, you've humanised him to the degree that he is a growing, developing, learning creature. I like it! So you're explanation of Exodus is that god was a bit of a bastard in his youth (lost his temper, got carried away, maybe drunk more than he should), but that nowadays (since he had a child) he's matured and become a far more reasonable and loveable guy.

And I believe that, when all is said and done, he will accept the full responsibility for those mistakes.
And what exactly does "accept full responsibility" mean? Is there some sort of prison for gods that slip up? Does "oops, sorry Egypt about the dead children thing, won't happen again" amount to it, or is there more than just an expression of regret?

I take it that you believe that god can sin?

[Gregor]

Loki

I'll take the position that God has not mellowed in his old-age. Rather, he's simply pulled out bigger weapons, used less frequently.

In the OT, the worst that could happen to you was that you were killed. Then you rotted in the ground. No eternal punishment for you, though.

Later in the OT, there was some vague references to some life after death experience.

When you get to the NT, God is still smiting a few people (the folks in Acts that sold some land, but only gave 90% to the church). But he pulls out the neutron bomb in Revelation, the second coming, and eternal punishment. Of the choice between a God who will: (i) kill you once here on earth (OT) or (ii) torture you forever and ever (NT), I'll take the OT, thanks.

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Loki
Gotta love the degree to which you've worked on this Eric! Unlike Christian, who has to eventually fall back on a "we can't know god" defense, you've humanised him to the degree that he is a growing, developing, learning creature. I like it! So you're explanation of Exodus is that god was a bit of a bastard in his youth (lost his temper, got carried away, maybe drunk more than he should), but that nowadays (since he had a child) he's matured and become a far more reasonable and loveable guy.

You have to remember that I believe in multiple "time tracks." The question is, which of those "time tracks" becomes final reality? (In the larger sense I believe that all of them will, eventually, but that's a subject for another thread.) I believe that Satan, in his role as "the god of this world," has been reaching back and selecting every time track which shows God in the worst possible light. In the early days, there were quite a few of them. Later, as the consensus of what was right and what was wrong developed, the "juicy bits" got much fewer and farther between....

And what exactly does "accept full responsibility" mean? Is there some sort of prison for gods that slip up? Does "oops, sorry Egypt about the dead children thing, won't happen again" amount to it, or is there more than just an expression of regret?

I think that there are going to be two types of responsibility here, which you could break down roughly as "criminal" and "civil". So I don't think God has to worry about "prison time"; remember, it is my contention that, by the standards of the time, every one of God's actions was righteous or at least justifiable. So there is no "criminal" liability. "Civil" is another matter; I believe that there will be compensation which the victims involved will accept as being just and equitable.

I take it that you believe that god can sin?

No, see above. I believe that sin consists of doing something which you know of, at the time, as being wrong. I believe that God has never intentionally and willfully taken any action which he knew at the time to have been morally wrong. If he had, then he would not be morally qualified to be God.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by ehbowen

I believe that sin consists of doing something which you know of, at the time, as being wrong. I believe that God has never intentionally and willfully taken any action which he knew at the time to have been morally wrong. If he had, then he would not be morally qualified to be God.

If God is omnipresent, then according to you he sins often.
(you're going to hell...you're going to hell)

Jer.42:10
"For I [God] repent me of the evil that I have done unto you."

Gen.6:6
"And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

1 Chr.21:15
"The Lord beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand."

[triadboy]

Originally posted by ehbowen
I believe that God has never intentionally and willfully taken any action which he knew at the time to have been morally wrong. If he had, then he would not be morally qualified to be God.

So Yahweh gives the land of Canaan to the Isrealites (much to the surprise of the Canaanites and their God, Baal). The Israelites circle around in the desert for 40 years and then attack a peace-loving people living in their own land and (according to Joshua) slaughter them. This is morally wrong. And it was premeditated. In this case, God is immoral. Do you agree?

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by triadboy


So Yahweh gives the land of Canaan to the Isrealites (much to the surprise of the Canaanites and their God, Baal). The Israelites circle around in the desert for 40 years and then attack a peace-loving people living in their own land and (according to Joshua) slaughter them. This is morally wrong. And it was premeditated. In this case, God is immoral. Do you agree?

Not at all. You obviously are not acquainted with the moral practices of those "peace-loving" Canaanites. Witchcraft, sexual perversion, child sacrifice. See Leviticus 18:24-25: "Do not defile yourselves with any of these things, for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants."

The immoral actions and practices of the Canaanites had been a festering sore in the sight of God for some time. See Genesis 15:16: "...the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete." God had seen the ongoing problem. He had been planning action. But he held off his judgement until such time as the problem could not be ignored any longer.

[triadboy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ehbowen
Not at all. You obviously are not acquainted with the moral practices of those "peace-loving" Canaanites. Witchcraft, sexual perversion, child sacrifice. See Leviticus 18:24-25: "Do not defile yourselves with any of these things, for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants."

Are you familiar with the archeological evidence that says the inhabitants of Canaan at this approximate time were goat herders and farmers. That many of the 'battles' the Israelites engaged in never happened. That (basically) the Israelites just moved in to the territory and became inhabitants. The glorious, triumphant battles were written years later to glorify and justify their people. For instance, Jericho was already in ruins when Joshua supposedly tore the wall down. It turns out that 'battle' was a "just so" story.

You must also understand that all territories had their own gods. At this time, Yahweh was not the only god around. It was common practice as you passed through a land to pay homage to the god of that land. Even Yahweh knew there were other gods.

Ex.12:12
"And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment."

Ex.15:11
"Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?"

Ex.18:11
"Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods."

Ex.20:3
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Ps.82:1
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods."

Zeph.2:11
"The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth."

The immoral actions and practices of the Canaanites had been a festering sore in the sight of God for some time. See Genesis 15:16: "...the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete." God had seen the ongoing problem. He had been planning action. But he held off his judgement until such time as the problem could not be ignored any longer.

Yes, how lovely (to bad about the innocent babies):

Joshua 6:21 - And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Roadtoad

Look, I'm going to say this one more time. And then, maybe, juuuuuust maybe, we can kiss this thread goodbye, once and for all: The Book of Revelation is being misused! It is not, never has been, never will be, is not intended to be, never was intended to be, cannot be, should not be, and to the faithful, will not be used as a Roadmap to Rapture, nor is it supposed to be some sort of marketing franchise. The Book of Revelation was written to encourage the believers who were suffering persecution during the waning days of the Roman Empire.

Yes, Yes, Yes!!!!! Dang it, why in the hell can't all these "Rapture Ready" Christians see this????? It's totally nuts...insane...all the *rapture* hogwash that gets promoted.


I am thoroughly sick of the cowardly, craven, gutless simpering of these people who CLAIM to be Christians, and their bleating about Jesus coming to take them away from all the heartbreak, the sin, the grief that surrounds this life. You know something? THAT'S PART OF LIFE, YOU DUMBSH**S! You were NOT given life so you could avoid LIVING!

APPLAUSE!!! Sorry, it's just so good to hear someone say this. I am a Christian who happens to love life with all it's ups and downs. I also believe God intended us to live it to our fullest....not waste it away wishing and waiting for Jesus to snatch them out of it.

Most of the people who are "waiting for Jesus" can't be bothered to contribute to their local Food Banks, they can't be bothered to put in some time as volunteers at a local AIDS foundation, they can't be bothered to help do carpentry for a neighbor who's a shut-in, or quite frankly, they can't be bothered to do much of anything that requires them to extend a hand to another person and contribute something of real value. (But, they do tithe! Woopdie-sh**...)

Thankfully, my pastor does not believe in the *rapture* either. Our church has special outreaches to the poor. We help clothe, feed and whatever else we can for the poor and sick.

I don't believe in tithing. It's an OT practice that was NEVER meant for the NT church. It was actually set up for the Levitical tribe. The only examples given in the NT about giving are to do with congregants helping others within the church who are in need...and only giving to Pastor when they felt desire to do so. None of the apostles collected tithes.

Truth to tell, I'm not so different from anyone else, atheist, agnostic, or believer. I have a real problem, when it gets right down to it, being a guy who's not hitting on all eight, knowing damn well that I'm supposed to be saved, sanctified, and the like, but knowing that there are better people than me who are (according to the interpretation of others) damned to an eternity of misery. My Dad was one of the kindest, most generous people I ever knew. But, he never once professed faith in Christ. So, am I supposed to simply sit back and accept this notion that a good, honest, honorable man is spending eternity in misery because he had an occasional beer, swore a little, and never said "Christ is Lord"?

Hell no, not in my book!!! It's illogical, unfair, and cruel to send anyone to Hell who has been a good person in life. I can't believe that Hell exists for anyone but truly evil people like Hitler or Stalin. My dad was a kind man. He was alcoholic and could be mean when under the influence, but it was just the alcohol causing this. He was always kind to others, and always honest and generous. He was pretty much an atheist as far as his belief system goes. He loved to argue with me about my beliefs sometimes. He died a few years ago...much to my shock. Anyhow, I cannot live the idea that he went to Hell. Thankfully, most of my friends....who are not as liberal in my Christian beliefs as I am, do believe that my dad has to have gone to Heaven. I could not deal with them saying he did not.

Yeah, I'm in the midst of a crisis of faith. I'm not a "good" Christian. Maybe, though, we need a few more "bad" Christians around. Just a thought.

You are in the same spot I am!!! I am definitely going through a crisis. I am a probably a "bad" Christian...and so is my hubby. It's great, but also frustrating. In many ways, I feel more free now than ever. It's just frustrating to be confronted with some of the nonsense that many Christians believe. :(

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by Ruby



You are in the same spot I am!!! I am definitely going through a crisis. I am a probably a "bad" Christian...and so is my hubby. It's great, but also frustrating. In many ways, I feel more free now than ever. It's just frustrating to be confronted with some of the nonsense that many Christians believe. :(


If you are a BAD christian for exercising your capacity to think as a mature adult what would a GOOD christian be?
A crisis of faith should no more be regarded as transgression than difficulty in grasping ANY learning and living situation.
Religion doesn't simply shy away from arguments grounded in physics, biology chemistry etc.!
It also refuses to be analyzed in light of positive psychological development.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by justsaygnosis



If you are a BAD christian for exercising your capacity to think as a mature adult what would a GOOD christian be?
A crisis of faith should no more be regarded as transgression than difficulty in grasping ANY learning and living situation.
Religion doesn't simply shy away from arguments grounded in physics, biology chemistry etc.!
It also refuses to be analyzed in light of positive psychological development.

I would question this. I understand what it is you're saying, and you're usually right, but, what value is any belief system if you're unwilling to challenge it? As I pointed out earlier, if you can't question what it is you believe, and why you choose to believe it, then how can you say you believe anything at all?

At the root of the question: How do you know there's a God? I don't have an easy answer for this one, and I doubt I ever will. But that doesn't stop me from challenging myself and digging a little deeper, to try and find a valid answer for it. At the root of Christianity is the idea that you are supposed to be a skeptic. The Apostle Paul made note of this on several occasions, even telling Timothy to continue to study and search "to show yourself approved." (No, I don't accept the notion that Timothy was supposed to only study the Bible, or more correctly, the Septuagint.) I don't see this as a threat to my relgious belief. It's not comfortable, but it's not threat.

I see it more as a logical extention of it.

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by Roadtoad






I see it more as a logical extention of it.

And to add to that in its' own caveat

"test the spirits to discern if they are true or false."
(Paraphrased...I'm eating and way to lazy at the moment to pull the exact cite.)

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by justsaygnosis


And to add to that in its' own caveat

"test the spirits to discern if they are true or false."
(Paraphrased...I'm eating and way to lazy at the moment to pull the exact cite.)

Actually, I think that part was from the Apostle John. (Way too lazy m'self to look it up. Same reason. Bon Appetit! :D )

[Ruby]

Originally posted by justsaygnosis

If you are a BAD christian for exercising your capacity to think as a mature adult what would a GOOD christian be?

Those who follow blindly. Those who never question anything taught to them. They are the good ones!



A crisis of faith should no more be regarded as transgression than difficulty in grasping ANY learning and living situation.
Religion doesn't simply shy away from arguments grounded in physics, biology chemistry etc.!
It also refuses to be analyzed in light of positive psychological development. [/B]

Yep, that's for sure!!

[Roadtoad]

Just in case you didn't know...

OK, we all know that 666 is the Number of the Beast.

But did you know about:


660
Approximate number of the Beast

DCLXVI
Roman numeral of the Beast

666.0000
Number of the High Precision Beast

0.666
Number of the Millibeast

/ 666
Beast Common Denominator

(-666) ^ (1/2)
Imaginary number of the Beast

6.66 e3
Floating point Beast

1010011010
Binary of the Beast

6, uh... what was that number again?
Number of the Blonde Beast

1-666
Area code of the Beast

00666
Zip code of the Beast

666mph
The speed limit of the Beast

$665.95
Retail price of the Beast

$699.25
Price of the Beast plus 5% state sales tax

$769.95
Price of the Beast with all accessories and replacement soul

$656.66
Walmart price of the Beast

$646.66
Next week's Walmart price of the Beast

Phillips 666
Gasoline of the Beast

Route 666
Way of the Beast

666 F
Oven temperature for roast Beast

666k
Retirement plan of the Beast

666 mg
Recommended Minimum Daily Requirement of Beast

6.66 %
5 year CD interest rate at First Beast of Hell National Bank, $666 minimum deposit.

$666/hr
Beast's lawyer's billing rate

Lotus 6-6-6
Spreadsheet of the Beast

Word 6.66
Word Processor of the Beast

i66686
CPU of the Beast

666i
BMW of the Beast

DSM-666 (revised)
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the Beast

1232 Octal, Apt. 29A
Beast's hexed address

668
Next-door neighbor of the Beast

333
The semi-Christ

665.9997856
The Number of the Beast on a Pentium

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by corplinx
Technically, the new israel is not the old one since the borders don't match. For the bible "prophecy" to come true, there are going to have to be a ton more settlements.

Indeed (http://www.geocities.com/IslamAwareness/Palestine/dreams.html)

[Kiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



Kiri,that means you have no friends, or all you (sic ) friends have turned their backs on the one and only Liv