The Rapture Index

[Pyrrho]

Get right with God you heathens. Time is running out.

http://www.raptureready.com/

Reported as a newsworthy item by the brilliant minds at WEWS:

http://www.newsnet5.com/newschannel5/1588673/detail.html


CLEVELAND -- The "Rapture Index" claims to track just how close we are to the end of the world.

In Thursday night's Special Assignment, NewsChannel5's Brad Harvey looks at what's behind a growing interest in biblical prophecies that are seemingly coming true.


From Rapture Ready:

"Someday all born-again believers are going to suddenly find themselves caught-up into the heavenly realm to meet the Lord. The only remedy for this shocking event is to be on constant vigilance. "

[JoxterTheMighty]

Great now whenever I hear a trumpet blowing I'll be looking up for Jesus on a cloud :P

[a_unique_person]

Such scenes of war, natural disaster, rapine, murder and devastation as has never covered all the face of the land at one time in all the history of the earth. The great war lord lays waste all in his ever-increasing path, the very report of which sends terror before him. The earth herself mourns as her children reap death in such number, there are not enough left to bury the dead, bringing plague and pestilence of every order to her seemingly few remaining inhabitants. The wicked slay the wicked in every increasing number

This seems to be a common 'indicator' of the end times. I think that many christians would do well to learn some history for a change, rather than just mythology.

There have been disasters happening all through history, and as bad as 9/11 was, it wasn't that big in terms of recent world disasters, it was just on the teev.

[a_unique_person]

From the web site, who is the antichrist?

Barney the Dinosaur Because John, the writer of Revelation, would have never known what a dinosaur looked like, it's logical to assume he would have identified any vision of Barney as being a dragon. With this taken into consideration, you might find the following scriptures quite revealing:

Revelation 12:3, "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon..,"
Revelation 13:4, "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"
Revelation 20:2, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."



They can't tell when someone is pulling their leg.

[headscratcher4]

I know, I know, it is crazy to quibble with this stuff.. but John says "red" dragon. Barney, at least on my television is purple. Both colors existed and were known to John there on that island (Patmos?). Indeed, as the imperial color (and I believe a color limited to only members of the imperial family), purpul was distinct. So, methinks reading red as purple is not only a mistake and a most liberal interpretation (cause' I assume John knew his colors even if he didn't know dragons from dinosaurs), that Barney, at least, is out of the running....

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
I know, I know, it is crazy to quibble with this stuff.. but John says "red" dragon. Barney, at least on my television is purple. Both colors existed and were known to John there on that island (Patmos?). Indeed, as the imperial color (and I believe a color limited to only members of the imperial family), purpul was distinct. So, methinks reading red as purple is not only a mistake and a most liberal interpretation (cause' I assume John knew his colors even if he didn't know dragons from dinosaurs), that Barney, at least, is out of the running....

Interesting you should mention confusion between red and purple. Seems the Gospels can't agree on whether or not Jesus' robes were red (scarlet) or purple before he was crucified. Maybe John was colorblind. :D

[billiefan2000]

What do you mean by Mythology?

I mean the Nation of Israel existing now is proof of Bible Prophecy happening.

[daenku32]

So what kinda index will it give after the nuclear war is over and everyone is dead...?

[billiefan2000]

what makes you think we will all be killed.

The bible mentions that this is a world without end.

[justsaygnosis]

Will the skeptics be beamed up by space monkies instead?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I mean the Nation of Israel existing now is proof of Bible Prophecy happening.

Technically no. The Bible says that the generation who sees the rebirth of Israel will see the second coming of christ. Now, assuming that his "prophecy" has been fulfilled is to assume that Israel has been reborn and will not be destroyed again and set up yet another rebirth. Technically, the new israel is not the old one since the borders don't match. For the bible "prophecy" to come true, there are going to have to be a ton more settlements.

Notice I put quotes around the word "prophecy". That is because the biblical definition of phophecy is not "future-telling".

In short, if the bible said "tomorrow the sun will rise", and it did indeed rise; that would not be "proof" of any kind that the original statement was the future foreseen. It could just be coincidence.

[neutrino_cannon]

Is there a yearly convention for the people who write this stuff? Do they vote on what year sounds best for the end of the world? Do they come up with new nonsense, or do they just trot the old stuff out and wrap it up in new ribbons? Do they even eat? I mean, perfect time to loose weight, with the end of the world and all. Probably a little fasting wouldn't hurt, what given the devastation and smiting and plauge and all.

I officialy label them i-diots.

[Marvel Frozen]

People have been predicting that the end of the world is near for basically the last 2000 years. They usually seem to point out wars and natural disasters as "proof" that the end time is near. If these people would just open their eyes they would see that wars and natural disasters have been constant throughout human history.

Anyway, I found this page (http://www.bible.ca/pre-date-setters.htm) with over 200 predictions of the end of the world ranging from 44 Ad onward. Some of the predictions even go down to the exact second.

[Gregor]

Armaggedon Watching is a great pasttime. Marvel, however, you ought to post a disclaimer to that site. It's run by Xianidiots whose other pages argue that man and dinosaur lived at the same time, pre-flood, that is.

Here's a great index to millennial madness:

www.chrisnelson.net

[Ruby]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marvel Frozen
[B]People have been predicting that the end of the world is near for basically the last 2000 years. They usually seem to point out wars and natural disasters as "proof" that the end time is near. If these people would just open their eyes they would see that wars and natural disasters have been constant throughout human history."<<<<

They always site AIDS and cancer as part of the "signs of the times". They need to see is that there have been much worse diseases in past history. The bubonic plague was horrific...killing one third of the people in Europe. Plus, there were no antibiotics to take care of simple infections. There was nothing at all for those who had cancer. Life expectancy was low. Compared to all that, we have made incredible strides in medicine. What we can do now is amazing.

Oh well...just my two cents!:-)

[billiefan2000]

such as Tulsa Prophecy Conference on April 2 to 4.

http://www.raptureready.com

mentions more on it.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by neutrino_cannon
I officialy label them i-diots.

Just out of curiosity, what's a diot?

[Yahzi]

During the Black Death, they thought it was the end times - but the most common theory was that God had given up on Man and was just out to do him in. So being holy was a lost cause, and people just partied like it was 1999 (aka The Masque of the Red Death).

[Underemployed]

From Rapture Ready:

"Someday all born-again believers are going to suddenly find themselves caught-up into the heavenly realm to meet the Lord. The only remedy for this shocking event is to be on constant vigilance. "

The only remedy???

Isn't the whole idea to go to the heavenly realm and meet the Lord? Did I miss a chapter somewhere?

[Roadtoad]

Every so often, I read through this sort of thing to remind myself that somewhere, there are people who really have NO FRIGGING LIFE!

Jesus said that there would be wars and rumors of war, and when we encounter this, to look up, for our redemption was coming. There have been wars and rumors of wars from the moment man's feet hit the dirt, from Afarensis to Homo Erectus, to Homo Sapiens. Nothing has ever changed that way and it never will. HE DID NOT SAY TO SIT ON OUR BUTTS AND WAIT FOR HIM, but what He was saying was that we weren't to start running for cover. We were to live our lives to the fullest extent, as best we could, because you are not promised the next day.

You're right, Gregor. You're dealing with complete boobs. If the only thing you have to offer someone is fear that they might be left behind in a Rapture, then you really don't have much to offer, do you? What good is Heaven if your life on Earth is only half lived? (Or lived not at all because you were sitting around for God to call you home? Lame, lame, lame...)

Why would I ever waste my time listening to a coward? Someone too gutless to actually question God, even to the point of demanding evidence that God exists? If you haven't done that, then how can you say you have faith at all?

Rapture index? Sounds like another excuse to avoid real responsibility for your life. I'll bet Falwell's crowd just eats this BS up.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
Every so often, I read through this sort of thing to remind myself that somewhere, there are people who really have NO FRIGGING LIFE!

Jesus said that there would be wars and rumors of war, and when we encounter this, to look up, for our redemption was coming. There have been wars and rumors of wars from the moment man's feet hit the dirt, from Afarensis to Homo Erectus, to Homo Sapiens. Nothing has ever changed that way and it never will. HE DID NOT SAY TO SIT ON OUR BUTTS AND WAIT FOR HIM, but what He was saying was that we weren't to start running for cover. We were to live our lives to the fullest extent, as best we could, because you are not promised the next day.

*Applause!!!*



http://home.att.net/~jandk.pan/monkey.gif

[billiefan2000]

I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.


That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

[Kiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.


That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

Easy! Loot all their best stuff!!

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.


That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

1. If the Rapture occurs and I am still here, then I'll probably hunker down for the next seven years, and try to do what I should have been doing in the first place, which is live my life to the fullest, and declare my faith with my ACTIONS, not so much my words. Capice?

2. If I am taken in the Rapture, I won't have much to worry about, will I?

Perhaps, Billiefan2000, you might want to ask another question: Just how much does preaching accomplish, when it's actions that speak the loudest? Far too often, (and you can read my previous posts on this), Christians spend too much time jamming fingers in peoples faces, and not enough time DOING WHAT JESUS TOLD THEM TO! Far too many "Christian" businesses are even more crooked than non-Christian businesses, and that, my friend, is only the beginning. If you want to debate it, I'm more than ready to. (Trust me: Three years in Christian radio, a former lay minister, and a bible study leader. Knock yourself out.)

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Kiri


Easy! Loot all their best stuff!!

Kiri,if people you love and care about are missing will you be looting their stuff?

[billiefan2000]

many Media Outlets have done a story on the site.

Salt Lake City newspaper and TIME and ROLLING STONE and FORBES and WIRED have all done a story on the site at:

http://www.raptureready.com


What is your problem with that website getting publicity?

Or you are afraid of the truth is that it?

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


Kiri,if people you love and care about are missing will you be looting their stuff?

Why not? If people you "love" are missing because of the "rapture"...they don't need the stuff, they've gone to a better place where they don't need stuff...because, as we know, essentially heaven is the great Walmart in the sky...So, you might as well loot it...but loot is the wrong term, isn't it...'cause the "stuff" will be abandoned..so finders keeper probably applies...besides, better Keri gets to use it rather than Satan!

BTW...all of the predictions about the coming of the anti-christ fit GW Bush. :eek:

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
BTW...all of the predictions about the coming of the anti-christ fit GW Bush. :eek:

And they fit John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and Bill Clinton. They also fit Harold MacMillan, John Major, and Tony Blair. (No, they didn't fit Margaret Thatcher, unless you choose to call her the Whore of Babylon...)

Personally, I go with you HS4. If someone is gone in the Rapture, they ain't gonna need their Porsche. Have at it.

Hey, if I'M gone in the Rapture, you can have my crummy Subaru!:D

Can we now call this thread "finished?"

[billiefan2000]

Is George W. Bush from Rome Italy? DOUBT IT.


The AC will come out of the REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE or what we call today the EUROPEAN UNION.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Is George W. Bush from Rome Italy? DOUBT IT.


The AC will come out of the REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE or what we call today the EUROPEAN UNION.

Neither is the current Pope. We ASSUME it will be from a revived Roman Empire. I've heard enough theories which challenge that assumption. Remember, England had its own Augustan Age. What makes you think, considering we're possibly entering our own, that we're somehow exempt from being cited in prophecy?

And for that matter, why are you convinced that there will be a Pre-Trib rapture in the first place? In light of Biblical History, that doesn't even connect, in ANY way shape or form. It's antithetical. For all any of us knows, the Catholic Church could be right, and it could be an Amillenial Rapture. One day, you're here, the next, it's "here, there, or in the air..."

Can we call this thread CLOSED? Or at least move it to the APPROPRIATE forum? ("Not Connected...") At least out of Love for Christ. I'm not dodging the issue; it's just not an appropriate subject for this forum.

[DrChinese]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.

That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

Answer: I would do the same thing I would do if God appeared in front of me tomorrow morning as I am getting out of the shower...

...I would revise my opinions based on new facts. Despite questions like this from people like you my entire life, I haven't had to do this yet. But I acknowledge the possibility. After all, I learn new things every day.

By the way, if God did appear tomorrow, perhaps I would become a Buddhist... who know what form God might take? My question back to you: when (and why) do you expect the rapture to occur?

[the_ignored]

Originally posted by neutrino_cannon
Is there a yearly convention for the people who write this stuff? Do they vote on what year sounds best for the end of the world? Do they come up with new nonsense, or do they just trot the old stuff out and wrap it up in new ribbons? Do they even eat? I mean, perfect time to loose weight, with the end of the world and all. Probably a little fasting wouldn't hurt, what given the devastation and smiting and plauge and all.

I officialy label them i-diots.
Actually, there is. See here (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?threadid=80388) for pictures and statments about their convention.

Yeah, these people are total wack jobs. See here (http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html) for their end times commentary. Hell, at one point, the guy blamed satan for his computer problems! (I may have posted that in this board somewhere, but I don't know, I'm looking at a couple of places where I could have put that article.)

I like this:
April 21
A President For Europe

Prime Minister Tony Blair of England sent shock waves through the prophetic community when the media announced that he is eyeing the possibility of becoming the first full-time president of Europe. He may seek the position once he steps down from office in August of next year.

Blair has backing from several fellow world leaders. Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, the former French president who chairs the convention on Europe’s future, agrees that the European Union needs a president if it is to punch its weight on the international stage. President Chirac of France was actually the first head of state to publicly propose the idea of Blair seeking the EU presidency. The leaders of Denmark and Sweden have quickly swung behind the plan.

According the early drafts of the EU constitution, the president would be elected by heads of government of member states and would hold office for five years. The proposed presidency is set for 2006, but the new EU foreign minister will likely be in business much sooner.

The creation of such a post would help to settle the decades-old question posed by Henry Kissinger of whom to call in Europe for any emergency. The current system has the EU presidency changing hands every six months. Many believe an EU president would add stability and make it easier for the EU to do business directly with America. A strong European leader could also help prevent a repetition of the bitter arguments that erupted over Iraq.

The proposal to create an EU presidency has "Antichrist" written all over it. I would go as far as to say the plan will eventually lead to Mr. 666 stepping onto the world stage. We have no way of knowing whether Tony Blair is the Antichrist. The original Book of Revelation didn’t come with pictures.

If the first president of the revived Roman Empire happens to be the Beast, Tony Blair might indeed be Satan’s man. In Revelation 17:12-14, we are told that 10 kings will rule with the Antichrist and they will elect him to power. The passage seems to imply that Europe will not have a series of leaders before the Antichrist comes to power.

“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast” (Revelation 17:12-14).

The most important issue at hand is the 10 leaders. The EU currently does not have a governing body with 10 seats of power. If one should arise, no end-time teacher on the planet would be able to come up with the words that would adequately describe the lateness of the hour.


or this (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?threadid=59593
)

[Brian the Snail]

Tony Blair is the Antichrist ?

:eek:

Well, it would certainly explain this anyway:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/179918/PAsmall.gif

[c4ts]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.


That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

I would be laughing so hard...

[Kopji]

I am curious what will all of you guys do when the rapture happens and you Christian Friends and Family and Neighbors and Co-Workers are missing.

That is a question I would love to hear from everyone what their answer is.

We have several fundamentalist Christians working in our manufacturing areas and have written coverage plans just in case.

We will be ready for when important leaders vanish, or dangerous equipment is suddenly left neglected. This will give us a strategic business advantage when the rapture comes.

We also adivse hospitals to employ non Christians in critical child care areas so there will not be a repeat of the "Egyptian Scenario(tm)".

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Kopji


We have several fundamentalist Christians working in our manufacturing areas and have written coverage plans just in case.

We will be ready for when important leaders vanish, or dangerous equipment is suddenly left neglected. This will give us a strategic business advantage when the rapture comes.

We also adivse hospitals to employ non Christians in critical child care areas so there will not be a repeat of the "Egyptian Scenario(tm)".

I sure hope you're joking, Kopji. This is getting silly.

You know, there's a whole lot more to Scripture than the Rapture. Seems to me that this thread has already gone on too long. Billiefan, and others, take note: the greatest danger I know is not missing the Rapture, but to be taken up in the Rapture without having lived!!!!!!

Get a clue! Don't you understand what the Bible was actually talking about?!?! What is the point of being saved IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WITH YOUR LIFE? What a childish and selfish way to live, and what a waste of what you've been given! Why don't you spit in God's face? That would make more sense. Just how gutless do you have to be to sit around and wait for Jesus to come take you out of all this! People sitting around reading Tim LaHaye's books, waiting for Jesus to show up, have demonstrated not that they love God, but that they have CONTEMPT for Him.

Wow. I'm going to sit around and wonder what happens to all my stuff when God comes and takes me out. Sure. What a f***ed up way to live your life.

IMBECILES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Roadtoad


I sure hope you're joking, Kopji. This is getting silly.

You know, there's a whole lot more to Scripture than the Rapture. Seems to me that this thread has already gone on too long. Billiefan, and others, take note: the greatest danger I know is not missing the Rapture, but to be taken up in the Rapture without having lived!!!!!!

Get a clue! Don't you understand what the Bible was actually talking about?!?! What is the point of being saved IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WITH YOUR LIFE? What a childish and selfish way to live, and what a waste of what you've been given! Why don't you spit in God's face? That would make more sense. Just how gutless do you have to be to sit around and wait for Jesus to come take you out of all this! People sitting around reading Tim LaHaye's books, waiting for Jesus to show up, have demonstrated not that they love God, but that they have CONTEMPT for Him.

Wow. I'm going to sit around and wonder what happens to all my stuff when God comes and takes me out. Sure. What a f***ed up way to live your life.

IMBECILES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said, I would be laughing very hard.

[Sindai]

I'd laugh too. Then I'd go load up onEarthquake insurance, bug spray...hmmm...what else...gotta dig out those Left Behind books again... :D

[Ossai]

Sindai
gotta dig out those Left Behind books again… Why would anyone subject themselves to reading that tripe? It's preachy, inane and badly written. :confused:

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
what makes you think we will all be killed.

The bible mentions that this is a world without end.

Frank Burns;

"Our father who art in heaven..."

Hawkeye;

"Ever see anything like this, babe?"

Duke;

"Na, not with anyone past 8 years old!"

Barkhorn.

[the_ignored]

from Ossai:
Why would anyone subject themselves to reading that tripe? It's preachy, inane and badly written.
Easy. By the end of this century, when our grandkids have grown up, this stuff will, if we've saved enough of those idiotic books (time capsules, maybe?) "left behind" they'll be able to see them and the beliefs that xians used to have. The people currently going for this crap now will be the laughingstock of the century.

It'll also guarantee that xians won't have any "deniablity" when they say in the future that "most chrisians back then didn't believe in that nonsense either". The bible was speaking metaphorically.

Perhaps this silliness will, in the end, help bring in the death-knell of fundyism in the future?

[Sindai]

Originally posted by Ossai
Sindai
Why would anyone subject themselves to reading that tripe? It's preachy, inane and badly written. :confused:

Well, it was a hypothetical situation. Very hypothetical.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Sindai


Well, it was a hypothetical situation. Very hypothetical.

Back when I worked in Christian radio, we used to call this sort of thing "fleecing the flock." Long story. I'm just glad I'm out of it.

[Kiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


Kiri,if people you love and care about are missing will you be looting their stuff?

NONE of the people I love and care about would be missing.

Anyway, haven't you noticed that almost everything I say is a stupid JOKE of some kind?

[Kiri]

Originally posted by headscratcher4


Why not? If people you "love" are missing because of the "rapture"...they don't need the stuff, they've gone to a better place where they don't need stuff...because, as we know, essentially heaven is the great Walmart in the sky...So, you might as well loot it...but loot is the wrong term, isn't it...'cause the "stuff" will be abandoned..so finders keeper probably applies...besides, better Kiri gets to use it rather than Satan!



A very good point, but it doesn't address the possibility that I AM Satan!

[Roadtoad]

Finally! The truth is out!

http://www.esquilax.com/baywatch/index.shtml

[billiefan2000]

bump

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
"Someday all born-again believers are going to suddenly find themselves caught-up into the heavenly realm to meet the Lord. The only remedy for this shocking event is to be on constant vigilance. "

Why would born-agains be seeking a remedy?
One would think they'd be actively seeking to be enraptured.

I do agree that the only remedy for this kind of thinking is constant vigilance against accepting woo-woo concepts.

[Roadtoad]

Regardless of all of this:

(1.) The "Rapture Index" is farcical. Even the Bible says that NOBODY knows the hour or day when the Rapture will take place. This sort of barbarity goes against the very same book they claim is their guide. If and when it happens, it happens. Quit wasting time with this drivel.

(2.) People who are waiting around to be "raptured" are a waste of my time and resources. So you got saved, and you're waiting for Jesus to take you home? Knock yourself out, babe, but the rest of us are worried about how we can scrape together a few extra bucks to help the homeless in our community, we're trying to find ways to make health care available to those in poverty, and there's even a few of us who think we ought to be doing something about improving the education of our kids. Either get with it and help, or get out of the way, but QUIT CALLING YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN, because frankly, Ace, you're anything but.

(3.) People have turned the Rapture into nothing more than a franchise. ("Come to the sign of the Golden Crosses!") There is no way that you will EVER convince me that this honors God in any way.

Having said that, I'll ask again that this thread be moved. This is neither religion or philosophy. It's become an insult.

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Kiri


NONE of the people I love and care about would be missing.

Anyway, haven't you noticed that almost everything I say is a stupid JOKE of some kind?


Kiri,that means you have no friends,or all you friends have turned their backs on the one and only Living SON OF GOD who's name is:

JESUS CHRIST

[Temporal Renegade]

But I just had to jump in here.

The main problem I have with the Rapture, is that it seems to me to be mainly a Christian conceit.
So, if a non-Christian (or an athiest), who lives their life 'without sin', but doesn't accept Jesus as their savior, they have an automatic ticket to Hell? If the Rapture comes about, anyone who doesn't fit the profile of someone who is 'saved' doesn't go to Heaven?

Sorry, I don't believe that. I don't see how that could work. My thoughts on this goes back to the times when the Christian God wasn't known in the Americas. Would an Aztec or an Inca who had absolutely NO concept of 'Christian vurtue and values' go to Hell, because they simply didn't know about them? How can you accept a Savior you know nothing about? And, would a Kind and Loving God condemn someone for simply not knowing?

Actually, it's not God I have a problem with; it's His Earthly 'spokespeople' that scare me...
:confused:

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
But I just had to jump in here.

The main problem I have with the Rapture, is that it seems to me to be mainly a Christian conceit.
So, if a non-Christian (or an athiest), who lives their life 'without sin', but doesn't accept Jesus as their savior, they have an automatic ticket to Hell? If the Rapture comes about, anyone who doesn't fit the profile of someone who is 'saved' doesn't go to Heaven?

Sorry, I don't believe that. I don't see how that could work. My thoughts on this goes back to the times when the Christian God wasn't known in the Americas. Would an Aztec or an Inca who had absolutely NO concept of 'Christian vurtue and values' go to Hell, because they simply didn't know about them? How can you accept a Savior you know nothing about? And, would a Kind and Loving God condemn someone for simply not knowing?

Actually, it's not God I have a problem with; it's His Earthly 'spokespeople' that scare me...
:confused:

Welcome to the Forum, TR. It's great to have you here.

Unfortunately, I was once one of those "spokespeople," so let me be among the first to offer you my heartfelt apologies for the unrighteous, hateful behavior of myself and others of my former ilk.

From what I've read, to tack onto what you're asking, if there was no concept, or means of access to the same, it's understood that God would accept those who tried to live the most virtuous life possible. (No, I don't know how it works. Since I'm not God, I'm not about to try and explain it. Why make myself out to be an even bigger ass? :D ) So, the short answer is, "No, a Kind and Loving God would not condemn someone for simple ignorance."

My own opinion, however, includes this: if the only contact you have with Christians is a warped one, much like you found in Salem in the 1600s, or Wenatchee, Washington just a few years ago, God could not, and would not, condemn someone to Hell based upon the actions of His servants. (Keep in mind, this is my considered OPINION, and cannot and should not be considered DOCTRINE. I very well may be very, very wrong.)

You may want to read back among the past posts I've made on this thread to get another view of the Rapture. Personally, I think WAY too much emphasis has been placed on this.

(Edited to correct grammatical errors.)

[Temporal Renegade]

I stand corrupted-um, corrected!:)

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
I stand corrupted-um, corrected!:)

:D :D :D

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
But I just had to jump in here.

The main problem I have with the Rapture, is that it seems to me to be mainly a Christian conceit.
So, if a non-Christian (or an athiest), who lives their life 'without sin', but doesn't accept Jesus as their savior, they have an automatic ticket to Hell? If the Rapture comes about, anyone who doesn't fit the profile of someone who is 'saved' doesn't go to Heaven?

Sorry, I don't believe that. I don't see how that could work. My thoughts on this goes back to the times when the Christian God wasn't known in the Americas. Would an Aztec or an Inca who had absolutely NO concept of 'Christian vurtue and values' go to Hell, because they simply didn't know about them? How can you accept a Savior you know nothing about? And, would a Kind and Loving God condemn someone for simply not knowing?


I believe the bible story which applies here is the one about the Pharisee and the publican. I believe that the Spirit of God convicts all men of the reality of sin, righteousness, and judgment. All men, even those pre-Columbian Aztecs and Incas you mention. And when we are confronted with the fact that we do indeed do things which we know we should not do, there are three basic responses to that conviction and that knowledge. The first is to say, "I don't care. Who are you to judge me, anyway?" This is the response of Satan. The second response is to say, "Well, maybe I'm not perfect, but I'm pretty good. I'm certainly better than [insert latest publicly exposed religious hypocrite here.] This is the response of the Pharisee. The third response--and the one which God is looking for--is to cry out, like the publican, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!"

I am convinced that whenever God hears that cry, he honors it, regardless of the "religious" background of the person who utters it. And I am convinced that there are a number of people from all religions and cultures, including the ancient Aztecs and Incas, among others, who have issued in and who have in fact been justified by God. I believe that, when the whole truth of the matter is known, there will in fact be such a full cross-section of humanity represented by these believers that it will be evident that there is no one, from any place and time, who has an excuse.

Does this mean that we who are Christians should stop spreading the Gospel to the ends of the earth? Not at all. Because while I believe that anyone can in fact issue that heart cry for repentance and forgiveness, I am convinced that the more that you know about the truth of Jesus Christ, his sacrifice and resurrection, and the written record of God's revelation of himself to mankind, the more likely you are to issue that call. And the more knowledge that you have of the mind and will of God, the greater will be the reward if you turn to him and the greater the condemnation you will receive if you reject him.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



Kiri,that means you have no friends,or all you friends have turned their backs on the one and only Living SON OF GOD who's name is:

JESUS CHRIST
I question the source of your information.

[Gregor]

Mr. Bowen

Thank you for your opinion, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, but whatever religion you are, it is not a Christian (as I will define it below).

Let me take the position that to be a "True Christian" (tm), you have believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. That is the only logically accurate definition (setting aside the Bible's internal errors for another debate thread).

If you think that the Bible is not inerrant, but contains some truth coupled with some myth, some hyperbole, some political message, some internecine disputes, and etc., then what authority do you have for the 'truth' of your belief?.

How do you cull the 'truth' from the other stuff in the Bible? The answer must be either (i) you elect to take some parts as true because it is consistent with your 'personal philosophy' and/or (ii) you had a personal revelation from god who told you what was true and what was error. This, then becomes the religion of Bowen - not Christianity. Since I did not get the same personal revelation and do not have the same personal philosophy, I'm not a Bowenite.

If I were a True Christian, I'd say that your post may allow you to sleep at night, but it's not scriptural. The True Christian God is not so forgiving. By way of example:

2 Thessalonians 3: "11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

[Temporal Renegade]

The following opinions are those only of the Poster, and not necessarily those of anyone else on these Forums. So there.

Religion is neither Right, nor Wrong. The beliefs of the individual are their own, and are therefor Right for them.
However, if someone follows different beliefs, or none at all, they are not Wrong, but are Right within themselves. There is no 'Real and True' religious belief; if there were, would it not stand to reason that it would be the only one?

I will readily admit, though, that I am not a religious scholar; I don't have shelves of tomes or reams of scrolls to look things up. My thoughts and opinions come from merely reading what I can find, and extrapolating from there. I was baptised as Catholic, but haven't attended Mass for a while... not as a form of protest, but because I could only sleep in on Sundays, due to my work schedule (yes, a totally selfish move, on my part!). But, just because I don't attend, I won't mock those who do, as that's not how I am.
As long as no one tries to 'Save' me, I don't have problems with them (a friend of mine is taking Ministry classes, and even though he knows my stance on these things, he is still my friend, and hasn't tried to Save me from the Fiery Pit. Thank- well, God!):D

As for the Rapture business...if you believe, fine. Give our regards to the Heavenly Host & all.
Of course, the only real way someone can find out about God & Heaven for sure, is to die. And that's a little too final for my liking!

"The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church." ~ ferdinand magellan

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
But I just had to jump in here.

The main problem I have with the Rapture, is that it seems to me to be mainly a Christian conceit.
So, if a non-Christian (or an athiest), who lives their life 'without sin', but doesn't accept Jesus as their savior, they have an automatic ticket to Hell? If the Rapture comes about, anyone who doesn't fit the profile of someone who is 'saved' doesn't go to Heaven?

Sorry, I don't believe that. I don't see how that could work. My thoughts on this goes back to the times when the Christian God wasn't known in the Americas. Would an Aztec or an Inca who had absolutely NO concept of 'Christian vurtue and values' go to Hell, because they simply didn't know about them? How can you accept a Savior you know nothing about? And, would a Kind and Loving God condemn someone for simply not knowing?

Actually, it's not God I have a problem with; it's His Earthly 'spokespeople' that scare me...
:confused:

Most of them scare me too......and I am one!:rolleyes:

I don't believe that only those who proclaim Christ will be in *Heaven*.

As for the rapture, I am not sure I believe in that concept. Not all Christians are believers in the *Rapture* or the end times stuff.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by ehbowen


I believe the bible story which applies here is the one about the Pharisee and the publican. I believe that the Spirit of God convicts all men of the reality of sin, righteousness, and judgment. All men, even those pre-Columbian Aztecs and Incas you mention. And when we are confronted with the fact that we do indeed do things which we know we should not do, there are three basic responses to that conviction and that knowledge. The first is to say, "I don't care. Who are you to judge me, anyway?" This is the response of Satan. The second response is to say, "Well, maybe I'm not perfect, but I'm pretty good. I'm certainly better than [insert latest publicly exposed religious hypocrite here.] This is the response of the Pharisee. The third response--and the one which God is looking for--is to cry out, like the publican, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!"

I am convinced that whenever God hears that cry, he honors it, regardless of the "religious" background of the person who utters it. And I am convinced that there are a number of people from all religions and cultures, including the ancient Aztecs and Incas, among others, who have issued in and who have in fact been justified by God. I believe that, when the whole truth of the matter is known, there will in fact be such a full cross-section of humanity represented by these believers that it will be evident that there is no one, from any place and time, who has an excuse.



That's the same way I see it too!:)

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Gregor
If I were a True Christian, I'd say that your post may allow you to sleep at night, but it's not scriptural. The True Christian God is not so forgiving.

Well, Gregor, that's true. God is not particularly forgiving. He's not exactly what I'd call a "Teddy Bear" of a God.

But, if you reread what you're citing, and examine a little more closely, you realize that scripture is more open than you first realized. The Bible does not say what you WANT it to say.

That's a tough lesson. And you learn it the hard way, no matter how many books you have on the shelf about the Bible. (And I've got lots of books on the shelf, lemme tell ya!:D )

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Gregor
Mr. Bowen

Thank you for your opinion, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, but whatever religion you are, it is not a Christian (as I will define it below).

Ooooooooo-kaaay.... For the sake of argument I will let you take the position that you know more about my beliefs than I do.

Let me take the position that to be a "True Christian" (tm), you have believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. That is the only logically accurate definition (setting aside the Bible's internal errors for another debate thread).

No, the logically accurate position is that to be a True Christian you must be a regenerated (born-again) believer and willing follower of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ; a present citizen and future resident of the Kingdom of God. Many True Christians, it is true, do in fact believe in the inerrancy of the Bible; I am convinced that this is in fact the correct position to take. But it is not mandatory. My personal take on the doctrine of inerrancy may, as well, differ from your definition of "inerrant"; I take it to mean that the original authors wrote down exactly what God wanted them to write.

If you think that the Bible is not inerrant, but contains some truth coupled with some myth, some hyperbole, some political message, some internecine disputes, and etc., then what authority do you have for the 'truth' of your belief?.

How do you cull the 'truth' from the other stuff in the Bible? The answer must be either (i) you elect to take some parts as true because it is consistent with your 'personal philosophy' and/or (ii) you had a personal revelation from god who told you what was true and what was error. This, then becomes the religion of Bowen - not Christianity. Since I did not get the same personal revelation and do not have the same personal philosophy, I'm not a Bowenite.

Your question of how to extract the true meaning from the Bible is a reasonable one; however, there is more to it than 'personal philosophies.' First let us begin with a definition of what the Bible is: It is more than just some holy book; it is the written record of God's revelation of himself to mankind. Second, if you accept the doctrine of inerrancy as I defined it above, then you must accept that every single word which survived the selection process and was included in the Bible is exactly what God wanted to say about these subjects at the time those words were written. Keeping that in mind, you can then begin to search for unifying themes, or doctrines. These themes, and the way in which they develop as more information and revelation is received, give insight as to the true meaning.

The end result of the process, you must remember, is not to organize a religion, but to come to know a person: God. Through scripture he reveals his nature and character, and as we come to know the truth of the scriptures better we come to understand the nature and character of that person better. And you must keep in mind that it is a complex personality. The various sections of scripture which you may like to think of as "contradictions" in fact are revealing different perspectives, both true, about God's nature and character. Yes, there are numerous passages in Scripture which talk of God's righteous judgement, and I am convinced that God does stand ready to judge the wicked. But that complements and does not negate the references to him as a God who "is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy."

If I were a True Christian, I'd say that your post may allow you to sleep at night, but it's not scriptural. The True Christian God is not so forgiving. By way of example:

2 Thessalonians 3: "11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

That is true, but remember the three forms of response which I mentioned in my previous post? This verse makes it quite clear that the delusion is sent for those "who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." If you take pleasure in doing those things which God hates, he is going to give you every opportunity to do as your heart desires. He is going to answer your prayer! And that is one reason I believe the world is in the state it is in now; God is giving to those who would oppress and exploit others the opportunity to do as they wish and to 'get away' with it--for a season. Only for a season.

One final thing I'd like to share about the nature and character of God, something which came to me as I was writing this post, in fact: God generally shows his stern side up front. It is only later, as you get past the initial impression and begin to know him as a person, that you begin to see that he truly is loving, compassionate, even gentle--the perfect Father. I think that it is no accident that the OT paints a different picture of God than the NT. And I personally do not believe that God has finished revealing himself to mankind; I believe that when we know the whole picture, we will truly understand his loving and compassionate side even more.

[Gregor]

Mr. Bowen
Thank you for your reply and for so completely and utterly proving my point. Xians have a personal (not Bible-based) philosophy, yet they claim to base it upon the Bible.
Inerrancy apologists take the exact position you do, and they neither analyze the argument that I make nor make logically consistent arguments in support of their position. You really do not refute my assertion that your belief system is what you have interpreted from the Bible, not what the Bible say.

Quote 1: “[T]he logically accurate position is that to be a True Christian you must be a regenerated (born-again) believer and willing follower of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ; a present citizen and future resident of the Kingdom of God.”
Response 1: I disagree. What teachings do you follow? Do you honor the Feast of Weeks? Do you adhere to the OT laws – all of them? If not, you’re going to hell, as Jesus said in Matt 7,” 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” This was written about those who abandoned the OT laws in favor of Paulian ‘new covenantism’.

Quote 2: “I take it to mean that the original authors wrote down exactly what God wanted them to write.”
Response 2: Good luck figuring out what that is. www.atheists.org/church/realbible.html

Quote 3: “[The Bible] is more than just some holy book; it is the written record of God's revelation of himself to mankind. “
Response 3: Special pleading and circular argument– the Bible is right, because the Bible is right

Quote 4: “ you must accept that every single word which survived the selection process and was included in the Bible is exactly what God wanted to say about these subjects at the time those words were written. Keeping that in mind, you can then begin to search for unifying themes, or doctrines.”
Response 4: i.e. you are charged with trying to square inconsistent statements in the Bible, regardless of how convoluted your argument may be. Here is where your personal philosophy starts to creep in.

Quote 5: “The end result of the process, you must remember, is not to organize a religion, but to come to know a person: God.
Response 5: No, the result is to try and shoe-horn together different positions taken by hundreds of men over hundreds of years – the aim of which was to say who gets eternal life and who gets the shaft.

Quote 6: “Through scripture he reveals his nature and character, and as we come to know the truth of the scriptures better we come to understand the nature and character of that person better. “
Response 6: Through scripture we reveal that the Jerusalem group disliked Paul and his followers, so Matt was designed to anathemize Paul. We reveal that the gospel of Thomas was excluded from the Bible because it supported those heretical Gnostics. We reveal that in the editing process entire concepts were changed.

Quote 7: “I am convinced . . . “
Response 7: Proof of my argument – it becomes your personal philosophy, not the Bible. Tell me, where did the concept of the ‘age of accountability’ come from? It’s not in the Bible. The NT says that at the end times, I’d hate to be with child – implicitly because those innocents are going to hell.

Quote 8: “God does stand ready to judge the wicked.”
Response 8: God stands ready to judge alcoholics, who will not enter the kingdom of heaven – how wicked are they? The God of Matt condemns those who do not follow the OT law – how wicked are they?

Quote 9: “If you take pleasure in doing those things which God hates, he is going to give you every opportunity to do as your heart desires. He is going to answer your prayer! And that is one reason I believe . . . “

Response 9: Again, the gospels of the Bowenites


Quote 10 “Only for a season.”

Response 10: Jesus promised to return before all of the apostles died – he’s 1,900 years late.


Quote 11: “something which came to me as I was writing this post, in fact: God generally shows his stern side up front. . . And I personally do not believe that God has finished revealing himself to mankind; I believe that when we know the whole picture, we will truly understand his loving and compassionate side even more.”

Response 11: Could you prove my point any better?


You started you post assuming the inerrancy of the Bible, and you ended it saying that God talks to you personally. You’ll pardon me if I disagree with your initial position and assert lack of evidence for your final position.

[Gregor]

Mr. Bowen - any response?

[EdwardG]

Originally posted by c4ts


Just out of curiosity, what's a diot?
I am a research scientist with Sprint Advanced Technology Labs in Burlingame, California. (http://www.sprintlabs.com/People/diot/)

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Kiri


Easy! Loot all their best stuff!!
There is a tradition amongst the people who play MMORPGs (like EverQuest and Dark Age of Camelot and so on). People post complaints about how the game sucks on message boards, and threaten to cancel their account unless things are changed for the better. Now, one of the things you spend the most time doing in these games is acquring objects. So the most common response is to post back: "Can I have your stuff?" (I.e. the only thing I cared about in your post was the fact that you are leaving, so can I have your stuff before you go)

I'w with Kiri: when some rapture-head starts boobling about his imminent departure, my response is: "Can I have your stuff?"


Temporarily Insane
The beliefs of the individual are their own, and are therefor Right for them.
So... if my beliefs are that I should hit you over the head and take your stuff... it would right for me to do that. And if your beliefs are that you should help other people obtain moral behaviour (that is one of your beliefs, right?), then you should let me.

Can I have your stuff?

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by ehbowen


God is giving to those who would oppress and exploit others the opportunity to do as they wish and to 'get away' with it--for a season. Only for a season.

God needs a new calendar - yes??

God generally shows his stern side up front. It is only later, as you get past the initial impression and begin to know him as a person, that you begin to see that he truly is loving, compassionate, even gentle--the perfect Father.

So - according to you - he's kind of like an omnipotent Lou Grant??


Yikkes!


Barkhorn.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Yahzi


So... if my beliefs are that I should hit you over the head and take your stuff... it would right for me to do that. And if your beliefs are that you should help other people obtain moral behaviour (that is one of your beliefs, right?), then you should let me.

Can I have your stuff?

No, you can't hit me over the head and take my stuff.

But, if I get raptured, out, hey, knock yourself out!:D

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Gregor
Mr. Bowen - any response?

What kind of response are you looking for? You began this exchange by erecting a huge strawman, and then proceeded oh-so-happily to knock it down. Even a cursory examination of Christian doctrine and teaching would have shown you that Christian beliefs and practices are based both on the past revelation of the Scriptures and the present illumination of the indwelling Holy Spirit. As for the question of whether or not I am a "true Christian", that is not yours to decide. Ask Jesus Christ when you see him. And, oh, yes, you will.

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x


God needs a new calendar - yes??

I have often felt the same way. But I have come to believe that, in time, we will--all of us--agree that God acted at exactly the right time and in exactly the right way.

Some of us, I readily admit, may take a lot longer to come to that conclusion than others.

[Gregor]

No strawman required.

A question arose in this thread about the Rapture and the condemnation of the unsaved to hell.

Many days ago, you posted your position that pre-columbian, Mayans Indians could go to heaven, based upon some ad hoc rationalization of scripture (which I assert is directly contrary to the clear language of the book).

As a result, I raised one of my objections to Xians who first claim to use the Bible, but its really a smoke screen to make their doctrine more palatable to the general public - (i.e. don't worry, children younger than the age of accountability don't go to hell).

I posited that Xians frequently claim that their beliefs are based upon the Bible, but when the rubber meets the road - it's really their personal beliefs glossed with ad hoc biblical interpretation. (Although to be more accurate, it's typically the interpretation made by an apologist like Josh McDowell, that was preached by their pastor, that is now their personal doctrine).

You proved my point.

Your response was that you believe in Biblical inerrancy, but when it comes to application to the world, you base your position solely upon divine revelation to YOU. Why not abandon the crutch of the Bible and just say "God speaks to me daily, and this is what will happen in the future." If you say "well, it's got to be based upon the Bible, first," I feel free to ask why are you abandoning other clear passages in the Bible.

[consumptive_womble]

I've now read the whole thread and can't for the life of me remember what we were arguing about in the first place.

The post that sticks out in my mind if BillieFan's, questioning how we would feel if the people we loved and cared about were taken in the rapture.

I have very good friends who are Christians. Some believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. They believe that dinosaurs existed, in the form of the behemoth... and then embedded themselves in rock and turned to stone for no apparent reason. When questioned, they believe in evolution (I outlined Darwin's bird studies in the Gal.. the Galoupig... those islands beginning with "G"), but at the same time, they refuse to believe that there is any link between man and apes, and think that everything was created by God.

Basically I've come to realise that no matter how much they contradict themselves, how little they actually know about what they believe - I'm yet to meet a Christian who has actually fully read the bible, start to finish - they just want to believe in it. Of course the rapture is ridiculous, as is so much in Christianity, but maybe trying to persuade people to take a reasoned look at actual facts, and then re-evaluate things is just as bad as them telling us to ignore the facts and believe in their more theatrical philosophy (You've got to admit, religions tend to have outstanding production values... if piss-poor continuity).

Then again, believe what I believe or not, in my view we all get the same, our existence just stops. From their point of view, I'm going to burn eternally for my questioning nature and for having a problem with contradictions.

[Temporal Renegade]

Recently I got into a discussion with someone (not my aforementioned friend) about The Rapture, Heaven, Hell, and all that.
Seems that, since I don't Believe Freely and Totally in Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I (and others like me) are, in fact, condemned to ETERNAL PAIN AND SUFFERING!! (their emphesis) There was no debate... you don't believe, you're screwed. Period. Oh well. Looks like that's it for me, then.

I guess I should be worried, but I just can't help thinking that God would judge someone on the way they live-what they do, how they think, who they help, etc.
God judges, but People pass the sentence...




Dougal: God, I've heard about those cults Ted. People dressing up in black and saying Our Lord's going to come back and
save us all.
Ted: No, Dougal, that's us. That's Catholicism.
Dougal: Oh right.
--FATHER TED

[Loki]

ehbowen,

I just can't let this go by ...

God generally shows his stern side up front.
You call it a "stern side"!! He's a heartless, brutal, psychopathic killer! Exodus is no "stern side" - it's the wholesale slaughter of children.

Exodus 12:29 - "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."

Exodus 12:30 - "And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
Think about that for a moment. God killed *all* the first born children of every Egyptian family - every single one, male and female. Even the families of servants and prisoners (ie, those that had no power in Egyptian society) were not spared.

Lets translate this into a more contemporary setting. Assume it's 1945, and Germany is not defeated. The Allies discover (a) they cannot quickly defeat Hitler and (b) the Jews are being exterminated in concentraton camps. The Allies have just invented a new weapon - an atomic bomb that kills only children!! The allied high command issues an ultimatum to Hitler - release the Jews, or we drop the bomb and kill all your children. Hitler says "no". Do you honestly think the Allies are being "stern but fair" if they proceed to drop the bomb and kill all the children in Germany?

Of course, the above analogy is slightly flawed. In Exodus, it's god that holds the weapon. But being god, he can choose from any weapon in his armoury. Why use the "Child-Buster" bomb? Why not the "Adult-Buster", or the "Pharaoh-Buster", or the "Egyptian-Military-Personnel-buster" bomb?

But it gets worse! Why did god choose this particularly violent and completely barbaric form of retribution? The bible tells us clearly what he was thinking...
Exodus 10:1 - "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him"

Exodus 11:9 - "And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt"
Exodus 11:10 - "And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. "
God deliberately intervened in the discussion between Moses and Pharaoh, and forced Pharaoh to reject Moses' request simply so that he would then have a pretext for unleashing his 'wonders'. God intended, right from the start, to kill the children! He set Pharaoh up! - Pharaoh was just a stooge used in an elaborate demonstration of god's power. A demonstration that left thousands of children dead.

It is only later, as you get past the initial impression and begin to know him as a person, that you begin to see that he truly is loving, compassionate, even gentle--the perfect Father.
Leaving aside that fact that the thousands of dead Egyptian children were never given an opportunity to "get past the initial impression" (hey - the "initial impression" resulted in their death!), I'd suggest that this is far from the perfect Father. This is far more like the Father that sees his child break a glass in a fit of temper, so he decides to break all the fingers on both hands of the child to "teach them a lesson".

Stern is not the word that comes to mind...

[Roadtoad]

I guess I'm one of those few who've actually read the Bible, cover to cover.

Loki, as an FYI, the Pharoah of Egypt was given multiple opportunities to release the Israelites. Each time, he pulled a fast one. After nine prior warnings, God, (as you choose to identify or recognize Him), basically said that enough was enough. I'm cutting this very, very short, and leaving out a lot, but it seemed appropriate to respond to what you posted.

Yes, God "hardened Pharoah's heart," but at some point, we're still allowed an opportunity to take responsibility for our actions, and take a positive step forward. As I said, there's more to the story. I leave it to you to read it, as you choose, and take some time to think about it. I don't think I'll have an answer that will satisfy you. (Nor will I claim to have a perfectly accurate answer you'll be able to hang your hat on. Sorry. I guess I'm not a "good Christian" as some on this site, both believers and non, would define it.):D

As to the rest of it, if you've been given a flawed view of God, you're not exactly going to be leaping at the opportunity to join the likes of Falwell, Swaggart, Bakker, multiple pedophile priests, and any number of occasionally well-meaning loudmouths. Somehow, if I had to guess, I'd say a truly Just God would recognize that. Sorry, Billiefan.

[the_ignored]

http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html
June 2
Rapture Ready Needs Your Support


Nearly all Christians agree that the world is in desperate need of finding salvation in Jesus Christ; however, when it comes to actually getting involved in the process of evangelism, most believers lack the will to take action.
I have repeatedly witnessed a dismal response rate to nearly every appeal I’ve made for reaching the lost with the end-time message. Some days, I just can’t believe that a couple hundred thousand people are regularly visiting Rapture Ready. Last week, I asked everyone to help get the book into local libraries and only a few people responded to my appeal. I knew the response would be extremely low, with many stores still not having the book stock, but I thought maybe around 10 folks would show interest. This is why I ordered so many books myself from walmart.com.
The question in my mind is not what good you can do for the site. What I’m wondering is what good I am doing you. The building of the site and the financial support always has come from myself and a small handful of people. In order for my efforts to be some benefit to you pre-rapture believers, I need to prod you folks into becoming more active in evangelistic endeavors.
I've said this before: If everyone suddenly decided to write a personal testimony or a new article, I would be hopelessly swamped from the inflow. There’s no way for me to even read that many articles, let alone post them to the site. I know from years of experience that this will never happen.
Something regularly occurs that shows how difficult it is to get people involved in the Lord’s work. Every few weeks, I receive letter from people who have read one of my of articles and feel convicted about their lack of support for the promotion of the Gospel message. The writers ask me what they can do to help out, and I reply by telling them everything they can do to help promote the site. After our initial email exchange, I rarely hear from them again.
The most pressing need for the site is financial support. Donating funds to the site has always been the easiest way for people to help out. Because I’ve been so busy with the site's content, I’ve allowed the giving rate to decline sharply. It’s a basic rule for any ministry: If you don’t frequently mention the need, the funds will not come in.
I currently have two graphic designers working on various pages for the site. Angie is still going through the site to clean up grammatical errors. I am making plans to have a local Omaha company produce a CD version of the Rapture Ready site. In July, I’m going to be down in Orlando, Florida to purchase more rare books that we will scan and add to the Christian Classics page.
To help with the cost of all these projects, you will find two options on the Donation Depot page. If you have an idea for a new web page or you think you can improve an existing page, please feel free to contact me. The main goal is productivity. I work on this site every day, sometimes late at night. As I’m typing now, it’s going on 1 AM, and I have to go to work in a few hours.
I don’t mind the long hours because I know the good my work is doing, and I also realize this opportunity will never repeat itself. A thousand years from now, I’ll probably be wishing I had stayed up until 2 AM to further polish this week’s update.

[Loki]

Roadtoad,

(Had this ready to post yesterday, but the Forum collapsed just as I hit the "send" button)

I guess I'm one of those few who've actually read the Bible, cover to cover.
You're not alone. I assume that this opening line is meant to imply that you consider my comments to be "uninformed" or incorrect because I'm taking Exodus 'out of context'? I'll deal with the 'context' issue in a minute, but for now, it's true enough to say that I believe Exodus *should* be viewed in isolation in this case. ehbowen wants to paint his biblical god as occasionally 'stern'. Leaving aside whatever else god may be (kind, gentle, etc), I'm simply focusing in on the 'stern' part. Sorry, but Exodus goes way past 'stern' in my opinion.

Loki, as an FYI, the Pharoah of Egypt was given multiple opportunities to release the Israelites.
Quite true. God, via Moses, was prepared to take the negotiations slowly. A bit like the US trying to get Saddam to disarm, I suppose. Sanctions, diplomacy, each time upping the ante a little.

Each time, he pulled a fast one.
Also true, although god's 'hardening' of pharaohs heart is still a factor even here in the initial 'bargaining' stages.

After nine prior warnings, God, (as you choose to identify or recognize Him), basically said that enough was enough.
Yes he did - and god immediate killed tens of thousands of children to prove his point. A similar analogy would be if, after repeated warnings to Saddam, the US finally lost patience, and sent teams of snipers into Iraq to kill large numbers of Iraqi children - but not to target Saddam! Really, the point seems clear - god visited the punishment upon those who had not commited the crime!

Yes, God "hardened Pharoah's heart," but at some point, we're still allowed an opportunity to take responsibility for our actions, and take a positive step forward.
Unless, of course, you happened to be the firstborn child of an Egyptian family - in which case you got absolutely no choice whatsoever to take responsibility pharaoh's actions. Instead of choice, you got summarily executed for having the audacity to be born to Egyptian parents.

As I said, there's more to the story. I leave it to you to read it, as you choose, and take some time to think about it.
Read it more than once, thought about it. Always interested in a 'christian' perspective on this particular example of god's "sterness". Not quite the perfect Father-figure ?

I don't think I'll have an answer that will satisfy you.
Well, feel free to try! The normal response is to run with the 'context' issue. In other words, sure it looks nasty, but you can't make an omlette without breaking eggs. Slight variations include "who are we to judge god...", or "but Jesus shows that god has a nice side...". And of course there's "his plan is beyond our understanding...".

Just answer this - can you think of *any* situation at all (be as hypothetical as you like) in which you believe it would be appropriate for the President of the United States to order the execution of thousands of healthy, innocent children? Apparently, a 'stern, but fatherly' god can ... please, keep that kind of father away from my children.

[Loki]

the_ignored,

(from the Rapture Ready site...)
A thousand years from now, I’ll probably be wishing I had stayed up until 2 AM to further polish this week’s update.
There's confidence for you!

[Loki]

I seem to be wandering up a sidetrack by myself at the moment, but I'll continue anyway....

One more detail regarding Exodus - just how dumb were the Egyptians! One morning, every household in Egyptian awoke to find at least one dead person in the house. When they ran outside to seek help, they discovered that *all* their neighbours were in the same boat. And this tragedy extended across all social boundaries - the affliction when to the very highest levels, and throughout the priesthood, bureaucracy, etc. Shortly thereafter, Pharaoh and the entire Egyptian army were drowned!

Tens of thousands of dead spread throughout every town and village, their leader killed, and their army destroyed to a man. How did the Egyptian nation react? They promptly forgot about!

They wrote nothing down about this. Apparently, it wasn't worth noting?

They didn't stop believing in their gods, and switch to Yahweh, despite the overwhelming evidence presented to them of god's existence (and the notable absence of the Egyptian gods during the plagues).

Come to think of it, why did god let such a golden opportunity to spread his faith go to waste? He'd revealed his existence to the Egyptians in the most emphatic way, but then promptly turned his back on the shattered nation, and allowed them to resume worshiping their various false idols. "He works in mysterious ways...."

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Loki
I seem to be wandering up a sidetrack by myself at the moment, but I'll continue anyway....

One more detail regarding Exodus - just how dumb were the Egyptians! One morning, every household in Egyptian awoke to find at least one dead person in the house. When they ran outside to seek help, they discovered that *all* their neighbours were in the same boat. And this tragedy extended across all social boundaries - the affliction when to the very highest levels, and throughout the priesthood, bureaucracy, etc. Shortly thereafter, Pharaoh and the entire Egyptian army were drowned!

Tens of thousands of dead spread throughout every town and village, their leader killed, and their army destroyed to a man. How did the Egyptian nation react? They promptly forgot about!

They wrote nothing down about this. Apparently, it wasn't worth noting?

They didn't stop believing in their gods, and switch to Yahweh, despite the overwhelming evidence presented to them of god's existence (and the notable absence of the Egyptian gods during the plagues).

Come to think of it, why did god let such a golden opportunity to spread his faith go to waste? He'd revealed his existence to the Egyptians in the most emphatic way, but then promptly turned his back on the shattered nation, and allowed them to resume worshiping their various false idols. "He works in mysterious ways...."

Have to admit, Loki, that was one that has kept me up nights, too. (BTW, like your sig. That was a funny, funny, flick.) According to one account I had, the priests in Egypt managed to keep that one out of the history books. Let's face it: there's more than enough in AMERICAN history that doesn't make it into the books because it makes someone uncomfortable. (Ever hear about the Blackfoot Treaties? Thought not....)

One thing I can point to:

Early in the Book of Exodus, Pharoah ordered the murder of every Hebrew male born in Egypt. The way I see it, you can view the events surrounding the Passover as retribution for Egypt's slaughter of innocent children. That's one possible key. It's not the only one, but it's one step.

I'm not suggesting that I'm the only one here who's read the Bible. Obviously, (and this was clear to me when this debate began), you have. I could wish more people who claim to be Christians would do the same. You're more faithful than most of my bretheren! (Go fig!)

Look, I'm going to say this one more time. And then, maybe, juuuuuust maybe, we can kiss this thread goodbye, once and for all: The Book of Revelation is being misused! It is not, never has been, never will be, is not intended to be, never was intended to be, cannot be, should not be, and to the faithful, will not be used as a Roadmap to Rapture, nor is it supposed to be some sort of marketing franchise. The Book of Revelation was written to encourage the believers who were suffering persecution during the waning days of the Roman Empire.

It was included in the final cut of what constituted the Canon, if you will, because it was found to be encouraging even today. Bear in mind the central message: "You do not know when your time on Earth shall end, or how it shall end. You have a limited time here in the frame of eternity. Make the best use of your time that you can." It is a lesson for all people, and it applies to you regardless of your philosophy, your religion, your politics, your whatever.

I am thoroughly sick of the cowardly, craven, gutless simpering of these people who CLAIM to be Christians, and their bleating about Jesus coming to take them away from all the heartbreak, the sin, the grief that surrounds this life. You know something? THAT'S PART OF LIFE, YOU DUMBSH**S! You were NOT given life so you could avoid LIVING!

THAT has been my biggest complaint with this miserable thread, and frankly, I'm sick of "certain peoples'" digs, jibes, and insults to others about this. Most of the people who are "waiting for Jesus" can't be bothered to contribute to their local Food Banks, they can't be bothered to put in some time as volunteers at a local AIDS foundation, they can't be bothered to help do carpentry for a neighbor who's a shut-in, or quite frankly, they can't be bothered to do much of anything that requires them to extend a hand to another person and contribute something of real value. (But, they do tithe! Woopdie-sh**...)

As someone who once considered vocational ministry, I ultimately decided against it when I caught Hell from everyone because I gave food to the hungry, shelter to those who had none, clothing to the naked. Me? I'm just a truck driver, who really doesn't have his act together. (Trust me, Loki, if they were to put us side by side, they'd immediately figure out I'm the one who doesn't have his act together.) I do the best I can with what I've got. And I ain't got much.

Truth to tell, I'm not so different from anyone else, atheist, agnostic, or believer. I have a real problem, when it gets right down to it, being a guy who's not hitting on all eight, knowing damn well that I'm supposed to be saved, sanctified, and the like, but knowing that there are better people than me who are (according to the interpretation of others) damned to an eternity of misery. My Dad was one of the kindest, most generous people I ever knew. But, he never once professed faith in Christ. So, am I supposed to simply sit back and accept this notion that a good, honest, honorable man is spending eternity in misery because he had an occasional beer, swore a little, and never said "Christ is Lord"?

Yeah, I'm in the midst of a crisis of faith. I'm not a "good" Christian. Maybe, though, we need a few more "bad" Christians around. Just a thought.

[the_ignored]

Originally posted by Roadtoad


...

Look, I'm going to say this one more time. And then, maybe, juuuuuust maybe, we can kiss this thread goodbye, once and for all: The Book of Revelation is being misused! It is not, never has been, never will be, is not intended to be, never was intended to be, cannot be, should not be, and to the faithful, will not be used as a Roadmap to Rapture, nor is it supposed to be some sort of marketing franchise. The Book of Revelation was written to encourage the believers who were suffering persecution during the waning days of the Roman Empire.

It was included in the final cut of what constituted the Canon, if you will, because it was found to be encouraging even today. Bear in mind the central message: "You do not know when your time on Earth shall end, or how it shall end. You have a limited time here in the frame of eternity. Make the best use of your time that you can." It is a lesson for all people, and it applies to you regardless of your philosophy, your religion, your politics, your whatever.

I am thoroughly sick of the cowardly, craven, gutless simpering of these people who CLAIM to be Christians, and their bleating about Jesus coming to take them away from all the heartbreak, the sin, the grief that surrounds this life. You know something? THAT'S PART OF LIFE, YOU DUMBSH**S! You were NOT given life so you could avoid LIVING!
Amen, "brother"!

Heh. Too bad it doesn't seem to have reached these people (http://www.gonethefilm.com/). Mind you, they say that saving souls is the intent...

THAT has been my biggest complaint with this miserable thread, and frankly, I'm sick of "certain peoples'" digs, jibes, and insults to others about this. Most of the people who are "waiting for Jesus" can't be bothered to contribute to their local Food Banks, they can't be bothered to put in some time as volunteers at a local AIDS foundation, they can't be bothered to help do carpentry for a neighbor who's a shut-in, or quite frankly, they can't be bothered to do much of anything that requires them to extend a hand to another person and contribute something of real value. (But, they do tithe! Woopdie-sh**...)

As someone who once considered vocational ministry, I ultimately decided against it when I caught Hell from everyone because I gave food to the hungry, shelter to those who had none, clothing to the naked. Me? I'm just a truck driver, who really doesn't have his act together. (Trust me, Loki, if they were to put us side by side, they'd immediately figure out I'm the one who doesn't have his act together.) I do the best I can with what I've got. And I ain't got much.

Truth to tell, I'm not so different from anyone else, atheist, agnostic, or believer. I have a real problem, when it gets right down to it, being a guy who's not hitting on all eight, knowing damn well that I'm supposed to be saved, sanctified, and the like, but knowing that there are better people than me who are (according to the interpretation of others) damned to an eternity of misery. My Dad was one of the kindest, most generous people I ever knew. But, he never once professed faith in Christ. So, am I supposed to simply sit back and accept this notion that a good, honest, honorable man is spending eternity in misery because he had an occasional beer, swore a little, and never said "Christ is Lord"?

Yeah, I'm in the midst of a crisis of faith. I'm not a "good" Christian. Maybe, though, we need a few more "bad" Christians around. Just a thought.
Again, I agree. You may be one of the few religious people I know who I could get along with! (given my experience on some "other boards"!)

[Loki]

RoadToad,

I hope you understand that my original post was aimed solely at ehbowen's description of god as "stern" - everything that I've posted since is in the context of that comment! (so yes, I've been hijacking the thread). The Rapture stuff seems so silly that I pay little attention to it (or anyone that takes it seriously)

Pharoah ordered the murder of every Hebrew male born in Egypt. The way I see it, you can view the events surrounding the Passover as retribution for Egypt's slaughter of innocent children.
Yes, retribution/revenge/justice is often used as an explanation (I think I forgot to list that one yesterday). Again, however, the "evil and nasty" pharaoh kills innocent Hebrew children. So, the "stern but nice" god kills innocent Egyptian children in retaliation. "But he started it..." seems to be the defence here!

Trust me, Loki, if they were to put us side by side, they'd immediately figure out I'm the one who doesn't have his act together
Well, I don't know you apart from your postings here, but it seems to me you'd be someone I'd be happy to spend some time side by side with.

I do the best I can with what I've got. And I ain't got much.
At a minimum you've got honesty, and humour. That's a lot, in my book.

My Dad was one of the kindest, most generous people I ever knew. But, he never once professed faith in Christ.
Always a problem for me ... can't quite understand why any kind of decent god would want to emphasise sucha trivial thing ("do you accept that Jesus was resurrected") over *every other thing*a person can do in their life (good and bad).

Yeah, I'm in the midst of a crisis of faith.
I doubt my faith was ever really strong enough for me to say I had a 'crisis' when it finally withered away. It certainly feels invigorating to me to stand here now and see the world without a christian veil.

I'm not a "good" Christian. Maybe, though, we need a few more "bad" Christians around.
You have my vote for "christian of the month"! And I agree that a few more people focused on living and dealing with the real world is always a good thing.

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Loki
ehbowen,

I just can't let this go by ...


You call it a "stern side"!! He's a heartless, brutal, psychopathic killer! Exodus is no "stern side" - it's the wholesale slaughter of children.


I'm not going to argue your points; actually, I believe they are valid. I'm going to content myself with this: Be very, very careful when you judge the actions of someone in a different place and time through the moral filter of your own culture and background; when you do, I believe you are opening up the possibility for others to judge you. Keep in mind that this was a time before the plebiscite, before the Magna Carta, before the Virginia Bill of Rights. What were the generally accepted rules of war in the ancient middle east?

I am not saying that morality is relative; I believe it is absolute. But I believe that it is an absolute which all of us--God and man included--are in the process of discovering, one painful lesson at a time. I believe that God is good because he has made the free will choice to reach out to what is good and right and highest and best at every step along the way. If you were to sit down and speak frankly with him, I believe that he would admit that, at times, he had been wrong. And I believe that, when all is said and done, he will accept the full responsibility for those mistakes.

[Loki]

Eric,

Be very, very careful when you judge the actions of someone in a different place and time through the moral filter of your own culture and background; when you do, I believe you are opening up the possibility for others to judge you.
Absolutely! Humanism has no problem with the concept you are espousing here - in fact, it's a central tenet really!

But I believe that it is an absolute which all of us--God and man included--are in the process of discovering.
Gotta love the degree to which you've worked on this Eric! Unlike Christian, who has to eventually fall back on a "we can't know god" defense, you've humanised him to the degree that he is a growing, developing, learning creature. I like it! So you're explanation of Exodus is that god was a bit of a bastard in his youth (lost his temper, got carried away, maybe drunk more than he should), but that nowadays (since he had a child) he's matured and become a far more reasonable and loveable guy.

And I believe that, when all is said and done, he will accept the full responsibility for those mistakes.
And what exactly does "accept full responsibility" mean? Is there some sort of prison for gods that slip up? Does "oops, sorry Egypt about the dead children thing, won't happen again" amount to it, or is there more than just an expression of regret?

I take it that you believe that god can sin?

[Gregor]

Loki

I'll take the position that God has not mellowed in his old-age. Rather, he's simply pulled out bigger weapons, used less frequently.

In the OT, the worst that could happen to you was that you were killed. Then you rotted in the ground. No eternal punishment for you, though.

Later in the OT, there was some vague references to some life after death experience.

When you get to the NT, God is still smiting a few people (the folks in Acts that sold some land, but only gave 90% to the church). But he pulls out the neutron bomb in Revelation, the second coming, and eternal punishment. Of the choice between a God who will: (i) kill you once here on earth (OT) or (ii) torture you forever and ever (NT), I'll take the OT, thanks.

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Loki
Gotta love the degree to which you've worked on this Eric! Unlike Christian, who has to eventually fall back on a "we can't know god" defense, you've humanised him to the degree that he is a growing, developing, learning creature. I like it! So you're explanation of Exodus is that god was a bit of a bastard in his youth (lost his temper, got carried away, maybe drunk more than he should), but that nowadays (since he had a child) he's matured and become a far more reasonable and loveable guy.

You have to remember that I believe in multiple "time tracks." The question is, which of those "time tracks" becomes final reality? (In the larger sense I believe that all of them will, eventually, but that's a subject for another thread.) I believe that Satan, in his role as "the god of this world," has been reaching back and selecting every time track which shows God in the worst possible light. In the early days, there were quite a few of them. Later, as the consensus of what was right and what was wrong developed, the "juicy bits" got much fewer and farther between....

And what exactly does "accept full responsibility" mean? Is there some sort of prison for gods that slip up? Does "oops, sorry Egypt about the dead children thing, won't happen again" amount to it, or is there more than just an expression of regret?

I think that there are going to be two types of responsibility here, which you could break down roughly as "criminal" and "civil". So I don't think God has to worry about "prison time"; remember, it is my contention that, by the standards of the time, every one of God's actions was righteous or at least justifiable. So there is no "criminal" liability. "Civil" is another matter; I believe that there will be compensation which the victims involved will accept as being just and equitable.

I take it that you believe that god can sin?

No, see above. I believe that sin consists of doing something which you know of, at the time, as being wrong. I believe that God has never intentionally and willfully taken any action which he knew at the time to have been morally wrong. If he had, then he would not be morally qualified to be God.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by ehbowen

I believe that sin consists of doing something which you know of, at the time, as being wrong. I believe that God has never intentionally and willfully taken any action which he knew at the time to have been morally wrong. If he had, then he would not be morally qualified to be God.

If God is omnipresent, then according to you he sins often.
(you're going to hell...you're going to hell)

Jer.42:10
"For I [God] repent me of the evil that I have done unto you."

Gen.6:6
"And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

1 Chr.21:15
"The Lord beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand."

[triadboy]

Originally posted by ehbowen
I believe that God has never intentionally and willfully taken any action which he knew at the time to have been morally wrong. If he had, then he would not be morally qualified to be God.

So Yahweh gives the land of Canaan to the Isrealites (much to the surprise of the Canaanites and their God, Baal). The Israelites circle around in the desert for 40 years and then attack a peace-loving people living in their own land and (according to Joshua) slaughter them. This is morally wrong. And it was premeditated. In this case, God is immoral. Do you agree?

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by triadboy


So Yahweh gives the land of Canaan to the Isrealites (much to the surprise of the Canaanites and their God, Baal). The Israelites circle around in the desert for 40 years and then attack a peace-loving people living in their own land and (according to Joshua) slaughter them. This is morally wrong. And it was premeditated. In this case, God is immoral. Do you agree?

Not at all. You obviously are not acquainted with the moral practices of those "peace-loving" Canaanites. Witchcraft, sexual perversion, child sacrifice. See Leviticus 18:24-25: "Do not defile yourselves with any of these things, for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants."

The immoral actions and practices of the Canaanites had been a festering sore in the sight of God for some time. See Genesis 15:16: "...the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete." God had seen the ongoing problem. He had been planning action. But he held off his judgement until such time as the problem could not be ignored any longer.

[triadboy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ehbowen
Not at all. You obviously are not acquainted with the moral practices of those "peace-loving" Canaanites. Witchcraft, sexual perversion, child sacrifice. See Leviticus 18:24-25: "Do not defile yourselves with any of these things, for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants."

Are you familiar with the archeological evidence that says the inhabitants of Canaan at this approximate time were goat herders and farmers. That many of the 'battles' the Israelites engaged in never happened. That (basically) the Israelites just moved in to the territory and became inhabitants. The glorious, triumphant battles were written years later to glorify and justify their people. For instance, Jericho was already in ruins when Joshua supposedly tore the wall down. It turns out that 'battle' was a "just so" story.

You must also understand that all territories had their own gods. At this time, Yahweh was not the only god around. It was common practice as you passed through a land to pay homage to the god of that land. Even Yahweh knew there were other gods.

Ex.12:12
"And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment."

Ex.15:11
"Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?"

Ex.18:11
"Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods."

Ex.20:3
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Ps.82:1
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods."

Zeph.2:11
"The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth."

The immoral actions and practices of the Canaanites had been a festering sore in the sight of God for some time. See Genesis 15:16: "...the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete." God had seen the ongoing problem. He had been planning action. But he held off his judgement until such time as the problem could not be ignored any longer.

Yes, how lovely (to bad about the innocent babies):

Joshua 6:21 - And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Roadtoad

Look, I'm going to say this one more time. And then, maybe, juuuuuust maybe, we can kiss this thread goodbye, once and for all: The Book of Revelation is being misused! It is not, never has been, never will be, is not intended to be, never was intended to be, cannot be, should not be, and to the faithful, will not be used as a Roadmap to Rapture, nor is it supposed to be some sort of marketing franchise. The Book of Revelation was written to encourage the believers who were suffering persecution during the waning days of the Roman Empire.

Yes, Yes, Yes!!!!! Dang it, why in the hell can't all these "Rapture Ready" Christians see this????? It's totally nuts...insane...all the *rapture* hogwash that gets promoted.


I am thoroughly sick of the cowardly, craven, gutless simpering of these people who CLAIM to be Christians, and their bleating about Jesus coming to take them away from all the heartbreak, the sin, the grief that surrounds this life. You know something? THAT'S PART OF LIFE, YOU DUMBSH**S! You were NOT given life so you could avoid LIVING!

APPLAUSE!!! Sorry, it's just so good to hear someone say this. I am a Christian who happens to love life with all it's ups and downs. I also believe God intended us to live it to our fullest....not waste it away wishing and waiting for Jesus to snatch them out of it.

Most of the people who are "waiting for Jesus" can't be bothered to contribute to their local Food Banks, they can't be bothered to put in some time as volunteers at a local AIDS foundation, they can't be bothered to help do carpentry for a neighbor who's a shut-in, or quite frankly, they can't be bothered to do much of anything that requires them to extend a hand to another person and contribute something of real value. (But, they do tithe! Woopdie-sh**...)

Thankfully, my pastor does not believe in the *rapture* either. Our church has special outreaches to the poor. We help clothe, feed and whatever else we can for the poor and sick.

I don't believe in tithing. It's an OT practice that was NEVER meant for the NT church. It was actually set up for the Levitical tribe. The only examples given in the NT about giving are to do with congregants helping others within the church who are in need...and only giving to Pastor when they felt desire to do so. None of the apostles collected tithes.

Truth to tell, I'm not so different from anyone else, atheist, agnostic, or believer. I have a real problem, when it gets right down to it, being a guy who's not hitting on all eight, knowing damn well that I'm supposed to be saved, sanctified, and the like, but knowing that there are better people than me who are (according to the interpretation of others) damned to an eternity of misery. My Dad was one of the kindest, most generous people I ever knew. But, he never once professed faith in Christ. So, am I supposed to simply sit back and accept this notion that a good, honest, honorable man is spending eternity in misery because he had an occasional beer, swore a little, and never said "Christ is Lord"?

Hell no, not in my book!!! It's illogical, unfair, and cruel to send anyone to Hell who has been a good person in life. I can't believe that Hell exists for anyone but truly evil people like Hitler or Stalin. My dad was a kind man. He was alcoholic and could be mean when under the influence, but it was just the alcohol causing this. He was always kind to others, and always honest and generous. He was pretty much an atheist as far as his belief system goes. He loved to argue with me about my beliefs sometimes. He died a few years ago...much to my shock. Anyhow, I cannot live the idea that he went to Hell. Thankfully, most of my friends....who are not as liberal in my Christian beliefs as I am, do believe that my dad has to have gone to Heaven. I could not deal with them saying he did not.

Yeah, I'm in the midst of a crisis of faith. I'm not a "good" Christian. Maybe, though, we need a few more "bad" Christians around. Just a thought.

You are in the same spot I am!!! I am definitely going through a crisis. I am a probably a "bad" Christian...and so is my hubby. It's great, but also frustrating. In many ways, I feel more free now than ever. It's just frustrating to be confronted with some of the nonsense that many Christians believe. :(

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by Ruby



You are in the same spot I am!!! I am definitely going through a crisis. I am a probably a "bad" Christian...and so is my hubby. It's great, but also frustrating. In many ways, I feel more free now than ever. It's just frustrating to be confronted with some of the nonsense that many Christians believe. :(


If you are a BAD christian for exercising your capacity to think as a mature adult what would a GOOD christian be?
A crisis of faith should no more be regarded as transgression than difficulty in grasping ANY learning and living situation.
Religion doesn't simply shy away from arguments grounded in physics, biology chemistry etc.!
It also refuses to be analyzed in light of positive psychological development.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by justsaygnosis



If you are a BAD christian for exercising your capacity to think as a mature adult what would a GOOD christian be?
A crisis of faith should no more be regarded as transgression than difficulty in grasping ANY learning and living situation.
Religion doesn't simply shy away from arguments grounded in physics, biology chemistry etc.!
It also refuses to be analyzed in light of positive psychological development.

I would question this. I understand what it is you're saying, and you're usually right, but, what value is any belief system if you're unwilling to challenge it? As I pointed out earlier, if you can't question what it is you believe, and why you choose to believe it, then how can you say you believe anything at all?

At the root of the question: How do you know there's a God? I don't have an easy answer for this one, and I doubt I ever will. But that doesn't stop me from challenging myself and digging a little deeper, to try and find a valid answer for it. At the root of Christianity is the idea that you are supposed to be a skeptic. The Apostle Paul made note of this on several occasions, even telling Timothy to continue to study and search "to show yourself approved." (No, I don't accept the notion that Timothy was supposed to only study the Bible, or more correctly, the Septuagint.) I don't see this as a threat to my relgious belief. It's not comfortable, but it's not threat.

I see it more as a logical extention of it.

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by Roadtoad






I see it more as a logical extention of it.

And to add to that in its' own caveat

"test the spirits to discern if they are true or false."
(Paraphrased...I'm eating and way to lazy at the moment to pull the exact cite.)

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by justsaygnosis


And to add to that in its' own caveat

"test the spirits to discern if they are true or false."
(Paraphrased...I'm eating and way to lazy at the moment to pull the exact cite.)

Actually, I think that part was from the Apostle John. (Way too lazy m'self to look it up. Same reason. Bon Appetit! :D )

[Ruby]

Originally posted by justsaygnosis

If you are a BAD christian for exercising your capacity to think as a mature adult what would a GOOD christian be?

Those who follow blindly. Those who never question anything taught to them. They are the good ones!



A crisis of faith should no more be regarded as transgression than difficulty in grasping ANY learning and living situation.
Religion doesn't simply shy away from arguments grounded in physics, biology chemistry etc.!
It also refuses to be analyzed in light of positive psychological development. [/B]

Yep, that's for sure!!

[Roadtoad]

Just in case you didn't know...

OK, we all know that 666 is the Number of the Beast.

But did you know about:


660
Approximate number of the Beast

DCLXVI
Roman numeral of the Beast

666.0000
Number of the High Precision Beast

0.666
Number of the Millibeast

/ 666
Beast Common Denominator

(-666) ^ (1/2)
Imaginary number of the Beast

6.66 e3
Floating point Beast

1010011010
Binary of the Beast

6, uh... what was that number again?
Number of the Blonde Beast

1-666
Area code of the Beast

00666
Zip code of the Beast

666mph
The speed limit of the Beast

$665.95
Retail price of the Beast

$699.25
Price of the Beast plus 5% state sales tax

$769.95
Price of the Beast with all accessories and replacement soul

$656.66
Walmart price of the Beast

$646.66
Next week's Walmart price of the Beast

Phillips 666
Gasoline of the Beast

Route 666
Way of the Beast

666 F
Oven temperature for roast Beast

666k
Retirement plan of the Beast

666 mg
Recommended Minimum Daily Requirement of Beast

6.66 %
5 year CD interest rate at First Beast of Hell National Bank, $666 minimum deposit.

$666/hr
Beast's lawyer's billing rate

Lotus 6-6-6
Spreadsheet of the Beast

Word 6.66
Word Processor of the Beast

i66686
CPU of the Beast

666i
BMW of the Beast

DSM-666 (revised)
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the Beast

1232 Octal, Apt. 29A
Beast's hexed address

668
Next-door neighbor of the Beast

333
The semi-Christ

665.9997856
The Number of the Beast on a Pentium

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by corplinx
Technically, the new israel is not the old one since the borders don't match. For the bible "prophecy" to come true, there are going to have to be a ton more settlements.

Indeed (http://www.geocities.com/IslamAwareness/Palestine/dreams.html)

[Kiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



Kiri,that means you have no friends, or all you (sic ) friends have turned their backs on the one and only Living SON OF GOD who's name is:

JESUS CHRIST


Yep, that's it: None of my friends have any use for either your religion or your "Saviour".

My wife worships Dionysios; HE at least promises his followers a good time, in THIS life!

[Kiri]

I'm yet to meet a Christian who has actually fully read the bible, start to finish -

I have... It's one of the reasons I'm not a Christian.

[Kiri]

Originally posted by ehbowen


Not at all. You obviously are not acquainted with the moral practices of those "peace-loving" Canaanites. Witchcraft, sexual perversion, child sacrifice. See Leviticus 18:24-25: "Do not defile yourselves with any of these things, for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants."

The immoral actions and practices of the Canaanites had been a festering sore in the sight of God for some time. See Genesis 15:16: "...the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete." God had seen the ongoing problem. He had been planning action. But he held off his judgement until such time as the problem could not be ignored any longer.

Uh-huh, the Canaanites were wicked and deserving of God's wrath...
And Saddam Hussein was about to equip his good friends in al-Queda with WMDs... :rolleyes:

Don't you recognize a justification when you see one?
The Bible was written by people who needed to rationalize the deaths of innocents.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Kiri


Uh-huh, the Canaanites were wicked and deserving of God's wrath...
And Saddam Hussein was about to equip his good friends in al-Queda with WMDs... :rolleyes:

Don't you recognize a justification when you see one?
The Bible was written by people who needed to rationalize the deaths of innocents.

There's more to both stories, Kiri. But you're on to something. I know this because I was where you are now.

And as far as the Gulf goes, there's a hell of a lot more going on than they're telling us. Frankly, I think if they told us, someone would damn sure be out of his job.

[billiefan2000]

bump

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
Just in case you didn't know...

OK, we all know that 666 is the Number of the Beast.

But did you know about:

{snip funny stuff}
Thanks for the bump billie. Might have missed this gem otherwise.

[Temporal Renegade]

Man, I go away for a bit, and this thing is outa conTROL! :)

There will be no Rapture in our lifetimes, if at all. Why? Don't you think that the Dark Ages (with the plague & all) would have been a prime contender for it? Or the Inquisition, when God's name was being invoked to commit far greater atrocities than had been seen in a long time? Don't know about you, but if I were Him, and that went on, I'd put a stop to it completely & finally.

Why are we so arrogant to think that WE will be the ones it happens to? That WE are far more deserving than someone who had to endure things in the past, done to them by those invoking His name
taking land, money, people and lives? (Yes, the comparison to today doesn't escape me...)
And, the supreme arrogance? 'Christians aren't perfect, just FORGIVEN!'
Wrong. Just saying you're forgiven, that God 'understands and told me, in my heart, that He Forgives me!' doesn't make it, I'm afraid. Jimmy Swaggert said that he was, even after his 'little indiscretions'. Do you believe him? I don't.
Confession's the same; you sin, tell a priest, and they tell you to say this, do that, and you're clear! I've never bought that, because if you've murdered someone, how can a priest grant Absolution? By rights, if the Confession is made by someone who really is truly repentant, doesn't the priest have to absolve them?

........ I seem to have gotten sidetracked here. Sorry about that (but, God says, it's Okay. I forgive you!):D

[billiefan2000]

I am curious,will you be saying when the Rapture does happen or will have thought your stance on there be no Rapture in the next 10 years happening was wrong.

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I am curious,will you be saying when the Rapture does happen or will have thought your stance on there be no Rapture in the next 10 years happening was wrong.

No, I'm saying I don't believe it will happen. In ten years or a thousand. What makes these times more Rapture-ready than one hundred years ago? Or a thousand years ago?

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade


No, I'm saying I don't believe it will happen. In ten years or a thousand. What makes these times more Rapture-ready than one hundred years ago? Or a thousand years ago?

The Bible says that before the Rapture and Tribulation and 2nd Coming of Christ are to happen:


ISRAEL MUST BECOME A NATION AGAIN.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


The Bible says that before the Rapture and Tribulation and 2nd Coming of Christ are to happen:


ISRAEL MUST BECOME A NATION AGAIN. And after two THOUSAND years, a coincidence occured. What about it?

[Temporal Renegade]

Gansta Rapture!

Sorry, no real message yet... just wanted to say the above!:D

[Temporal Renegade]

A quick question, from one who hasn't read them...
I'f I understand right, after the Big R goes down, some people are left behind...:)
After, they try to stop the Anti-Christ from ruling the world. My question is, Why? Because they think they'll be forgiven and get into Heaven, or just to make their time on Earth more bearable?

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Upchurch
And after two THOUSAND years, a coincidence occured. What about it?

A coincidence?


Even after all that Israel has been put through in the last 55 years,you say it is a Coicidence?

It is a Miracle considering all the crap they have to deal with,they are still a Nation.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000

It is a Miracle considering all the crap they have to deal with,they are still a Nation. heh. that's a hard one to argue with. ;) Helps to have the USA backing them.

Incidently, isn't there a line in the Bible to beware of people who fortell the 2nd coming? It's the Rapture Index doing just that?

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by Upchurch
heh. that's a hard one to argue with. ;) Helps to have the USA backing them.

Incidently, isn't there a line in the Bible to beware of people who fortell the 2nd coming? It's the Rapture Index doing just that?

USA aid to them is 10 million a day. 4 billion per year.

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Pahansiri


USA aid to them is 10 million a day. 4 billion per year.


Why does the USA support Israel and also,why unless there is a Spirtual Side to the fight between Muslims and Jews,why is there so many people who want Israel and the Jewish People gone?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



Why does the USA support IsraelBecause they are our allies?
and also,why unless there is a Spirtual Side to the fight between Muslims and Jews,Because they are religions with religious differences?
why is there so many people who want Israel and the Jewish People gone? Becuase they are relgions with religious differences?

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



Why does the USA support Israel and also,why unless there is a Spirtual Side to the fight between Muslims and Jews,why is there so many people who want Israel and the Jewish People gone?
billiefan2000




Why does the USA support Israel and also,why unless there is a Spirtual Side to the fight between Muslims and Jews,why is there so many people who want Israel and the Jewish People gone?


Reason 1- as Upchurch pointed out Because they are our allies. Which is part of the answer but needed to point out also is we give Israel more then anyone. The reason is #2.


Reason 2. A VERY Jewish lobby.

Reason 3- There is some truth to what you say in that some people sadly in government do believe as you do and this idea of “ prophecy” and “chooses people” etc, that is sad, not that they believe as they do as I respect their right to do so. What is sad is they use money that is not theirs. I wish my money to be given to all people to help. If as you say this money is Spirtual Side to the fight between Muslims and Jews,

Then we all need do all we can to end it and now.


why is there so many people who want Israel and the Jewish People gone?

That is sad and wrong just as your wanting the Palestinian people gone.

Please answer me this, if an American Indian knocks on your door today and he drove a bulldozer over to your house and he said to you “ Our god said this is our promised land” will you say ‘OK let me get a few things while you bulldoze my home and take it”.. WILL you do that?

My sweet friend I ask that knowing you will not answer.

One last thing please know the people in the government who believe and seek to lead our government and the world by Christian “ prophecy” also believe.

That a man can live in the digestive tract of a fish or whale tank your pick but know a whale is not a fish, without air to breath and summered in hydrochloric acid for 3 days.


Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

They also believe bats are birds, there are insects with 4 legs, perhaps also the world is flat and supported by pillars and has 4 corners.
And really a very long such list

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


The Bible says that before the Rapture and Tribulation and 2nd Coming of Christ are to happen:


ISRAEL MUST BECOME A NATION AGAIN.

THE SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST, as to the Bible.



"When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23)

They must be VERY slow runners 2000 years to cover such a small area?



"I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

Willard Scott has missed these people or they were lied to?

""Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." (Mark 9:1)

Willard Scott has missed these people or they were lied to?

""Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30) "




"So also, when you see these things happening: know that the kingdom of God is near. In truth I tell you, before this generation has passed away all will have taken place." (Luke 21:31-32) "


""For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have died. For the Lord himself ... will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) "

The fact is this “event” was believed by these people as an event that would happen within a few years not 2000+.

[billiefan2000]

2nd Peter 3:8 says:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
2nd Peter 3:8 says:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. But only humans have generations, billie. It isn't applicable to God, who has none. ...or maybe one.

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
2nd Peter 3:8 says:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.



Billiefan my friend why have you ignored what I have posted above? Are those passages irrelevant?



As to what you posted 2 Peter 3:8

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The people he talked to when he said
"I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

"When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23)

""Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." (Mark 9:1)

""Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30)

So also, when you see these things happening: know that the kingdom of God is near. In truth I tell you, before this generation has passed away all will have taken place." (Luke 21:31-32)

""For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have died. For the Lord himself ... will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

These people a day was 24 hours and not a thousand years, so are you saying Jesus did not know his day was 1000 years and theirs only 24 hours? How could he not know that and so deceived these poor men?


He said they would not die before he came back, that has been so far over 2000 years, he lied to them, maybe he was just confused, but he lied all the same and they are dead..


You post 2 Peter 3:8 but not 2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his [/b]promise,[/b] as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


He was, they are dead and did run through all the cities of Israel and no return.


You post 2 Peter 3:8 but not 2 Peter 3:10

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Here my friend your belief of a rapture and 7 years tribulation for us left behind is contradicted. It seems no matter how many times people that believe as you do make predictions as to this date they can not know it, and also when he does come everything is destroyed not 7 years of tribulation.

[Kiri]

Now I remember why I stopped posting in this forum.
Thanks!

[billiefan2000]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pahansiri
[B]
billiefan2000




Reason 2. A VERY Jewish lobby.


Pahansiri:

does Woody Allen and Jeanne Garofolo and Jewish Liberals in General support Israel,cause most Liberals for whatever reasons seem to hate Israel.


I know most Conservative Jews and Christians support Israel,but I wonder why Liberals seem to hate Israel,or it LIBERALS ARE A BUNCH OF BIGOTED FREEDOM HATERS.




Reason 3- There is some truth to what you say in that some people sadly in government do believe as you do and this idea of “ prophecy” and “chooses people” etc, that is sad, not that they believe as they do as I respect their right to do so. What is sad is they use money that is not theirs. I wish my money to be given to all people to help. If as you say this money is

Then we all need do all we can to end it and now.




That is sad and wrong just as your wanting the Palestinian people gone.



I dont want the Palestinian People gone,I never said that and I feel they should have their own state,however:


We need to get rid of:

YASSAR ARAFAT aka HITLER IN A HEADSCARF

cause he is to blame for Most of the Palestinian Violence.

[Temporal Renegade]

Do not put all Liberals in that same category, my friend.
We do not all BIGOTED FREEDOM HATERS. In fact, we are Liberals because we love freedom; In case you hadn't noticed, it's the Conservatives in Washington who have clamped down on certain liberties in the States...no longer can the Republicans say that THEY are the party of "Less government interferance in peoples' lives" (their quote).

[billiefan2000]

Name me one Liberty that has been taken away by Conservatives.


Name me one and show me documented evidence of it and not the rAmblings of the AMERICAN COMMUNIST LOVERS UNION or ACLU as the Useful Idiots to the ACLU call it.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Name me one Liberty that has been taken away by Conservatives. Oo! Oo! I've got one!

What about that hispanic American citiczen, Pedia (sp?), who is still being held without trial for his suspected connection to Al Queda? What happen to fair and speedy trial? Or innocent until proven guilty?

[Temporal Renegade]

What about the Patriot Act(s)? Look at them closely, and tell me that you'd still agree with them, if they ended up being used against YOU. When McCarthy was told, "Hey, I know who's a Commie!" , the last thing he worried about was if they really were or not; he just went by, 'if I was told they are, then the person telling me is obviously a Good American, and wouldn't lie about such a thing!'

If someone accused someone else of being a terrorist (and, they weren't), would you say, check them out anyway, just in case? Even knowing that the same could be done to you?

[billiefan2000]

I got a question:

Why do you or any Atheists care whether a media outlet mentions:


http://www.raptureready.com


Are you afraid cause we might be telling the truth,and the truth scares you or something?

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Are you afraid cause we might be telling the truth,and the truth scares you or something?

What me scares are zealots who can't leave innocent Atheists live in peace.

Furthermore am I reallly scared about blatant lies becoming "truth", just because some people are not capable of thinking.

[Temporal Renegade]

I'm not scared of it... in fact, I welcome it. It's still not up to us (atheists & such) to believe it; it's up to you to verify and prove it.
Besides, if Christians are already so gung-ho in the belief that if the Rapture does occur, and you're all Heaven-bound, what difference does it make if we and others like us don't believe? It's not up to you to get us there, it's up to US, right? And, if we screw it up, it's our look-out. :)

[Gregor]

BFan

I love it.

You post the worst possible scripture for your cause. Have you ever bothered to read 2 Peter 3 in toto?

Let me post a larger portion of the entire chapter 3:

"3 First, I want to remind you that in the last days there will be scoffers who will laugh at the truth and do every evil thing they desire. 4 This will be their argument: "Jesus promised to come back, did he? Then where is he? Why, as far back as anyone can remember, everything has remained exactly the same since the world was first created."

. . .

8 But you must not forget, dear friends, that a day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.

9 The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise to return, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to perish, so he is giving more time for everyone to repent."


Don't you get it? People in Israel in 90 C.E. were leaving Christianity saying "Jesus promised to return, and he's not here yet." This pius forger (not Peter) is saying (much like Kevin Bacon in Animal House) "All is well, all is well"

If people in 90 C.E. were complaining that the second coming was a little late, tell me what response do you have 1900 years later?

When the author says God is "being patient for your sake" doesn't it mean that those people alive at the time of the writing were in the last days?

Please bother to read the book you selectively quote.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Gregor
BFan

I love it.

You post the worst possible scripture for your cause. Have you ever bothered to read 2 Peter 3 in toto?

Please bother to read the book you selectively quote.

You make a great point, Gregor. I've pretty much covered some of this at the start of all this, but let me reiterate something:

WE ARE TO LIVE OUR LIVES AS IF THE RAPTURE WERE TO OCCUR THIS INSTANT. Which means, we are to live fully, with great gusto and joy. I don't see that in Billiefan's posts.

If anything, I see Billiefan's view of the Rapture as a means of avoidance. "See? I'm going to heaven, and you're not! I don't have to deal with people like you homeless/hungry/atheists/gays/etc."

In essence, you're dealing with a coward. Hit and run posts, won't really discuss matters, and can't admit that the Rapture, (when and if it occurs), will not happen on this predetermined schedule. It's stupidity, really.

I'll say it as loudly as I can, once more, in hopes that this will finally kill this stupid thread:

THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU WANT IT TO SAY!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you.

:wink8:

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


What me scares are zealots who can't leave innocent Atheists live in peace.

Furthermore am I reallly scared about blatant lies becoming "truth", just because some people are not capable of thinking.


You mean like the Radical gay Rights Fanatics who try to convert Churches into Lukewarm Chuches (i.e. METHODISTS and ANGLICANS)

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



You mean like the Radical gay Rights Fanatics who try to convert Churches into Lukewarm Chuches (i.e. METHODISTS and ANGLICANS)

Sorry, I'm not from the US and I don't know you exactly mean. Could you explain further?

[billiefan2000]

http://bpnews.org/bpnews.asp?ID=16217

and:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33365

show that Political Correctness by the frauds in the Churches is more important than truth.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
[url]show that Political Correctness by the frauds in the Churches is more important than truth.

Can't you, for Goodnees' sake, do something other than just post some stupid links?

An example for what I mean by blatant lies are the Creationists, who, against all better knowldge, claim that the earth is only some 8 000 years old.

I could name lots of other instances…

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
A quick question, from one who hasn't read them...
I'f I understand right, after the Big R goes down, some people are left behind...:)
After, they try to stop the Anti-Christ from ruling the world. My question is, Why? Because they think they'll be forgiven and get into Heaven, or just to make their time on Earth more bearable?

Those who fight and oppose the Anti-Christ will be those who believe in Jesus after the Rapture occurs. The Rapture is supposed to cause many to say "Oh my God, my Christian friends were right" and they will band together to resist and fight the anti-Christ. Some are supposed to die as martyrs (having their heads chopped off) and others will die fighting or die from starvation....(.due to not taking the mark of the beast, which allows everyone to buy food etc.)

Basically, all those who not take the mark of the beast....whether they are martyred or die by other means, will go to Heaven to be with God.

[billiefan2000]

Plus many who will be left on the earth during the Tribulation will turn to Jesus (Revelation 7:9-14) to proves this and will fight to expose the Anti-Christ for who he is.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



You mean like the Radical gay Rights Fanatics who try to convert Churches into Lukewarm Chuches (i.e. METHODISTS and ANGLICANS)

I am getting from your posts, just as I do from the attitudes and speach of many Christians I know that have similiar stances as yours, that the lukewarm Christian is not:

hateful

intolerant

and

self-righteous

A true warrior for Christ will put on his helmet of hate, sword of intolerance, and shield of self-righteousness and will not doubt putting these articles on.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
2nd Peter 3:8 says:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

There has been much error in using this passage as a prophetic guide of time. Peter is not saying that a prophetic day somehow equals a thousand years. He is relaying to us a principle concerning how we see time and how God sees time.

Otherwise, that passage would contradict the following passages that Pahansiri posted.

"I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

"When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23)

""Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." (Mark 9:1)

""Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30)

So also, when you see these things happening: know that the kingdom of God is near. In truth I tell you, before this generation has passed away all will have taken place." (Luke 21:31-32)

Jesus spoke these passages to his generation; to those who were right there with him at the time. They were NOT spoken to us. They were NOT applicable to us.

Jesus died...crucified...and then rose.......the Holy Spirit was poured out in a powerful way on the day of Pentecost...didn't his kingdom start then like Mark 9:1 says "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."???

[Ruby]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Plus many who will be left on the earth during the Tribulation will turn to Jesus (Revelation 7:9-14) to proves this and will fight to expose the Anti-Christ for who he is.

I am only stating what I was taught...not what I believe now. I do not believe in a *Rapture*. I believe that most or all of what Jesus foretold has already happened in 70 AD.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



You mean like the Radical gay Rights Fanatics who try to convert Churches into Lukewarm Chuches (i.e. METHODISTS and ANGLICANS)

What makes these churches Lukewarm? They love and serve God too.

[billiefan2000]

if any Church starts Contradicting Christian Teachings and start becoming Secular and PC then they are Lukewarm Churches.

[Upchurch]

So, they're lukewarm if they aren't fundamentalist extremist enough?

[Ruby]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
if any Church starts Contradicting Christian Teachings and start becoming Secular and PC then they are Lukewarm Churches.

In what way have Methodists and Anglican's become secular?

What is your definition of secular? I ask because that definition varies from Christian to Christian.

[MartinGibbs]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


Kiri,if people you love and care about are missing will you be looting their stuff?

Maybe we could get them to put us in their wills--on event of being Raputred (not normal "death"), we get all their stuff.

[triadboy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MartinGibbs
Maybe we could get them to put us in their wills--on event of being Raputred (not normal "death"), we get all their stuff.

Should we get Rapture Insurance for our cars?

When this thing goes down, (I assume it will be a Monday) I'm going to be driving on a freeway full of high-speed, driverless juggernauts - if there is a wreck, I'll need compensation.

[MartinGibbs]

Have you seen Monty Python's "Meaning of Life"?

I'm reminded of them wandering off to heaven, and the souls of the dead get in the cars, and then the souls of the cars drive off to happy land, where it's "Christmas in Heaven"

....

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by MartinGibbs
Have you seen Monty Python's "Meaning of Life"?

I'm reminded of them wandering off to heaven, and the souls of the dead get in the cars, and then the souls of the cars drive off to happy land, where it's "Christmas in Heaven"

....

Well, being chased off the cliff by the nude women was a win/lose situation...

[Roadtoad]

Well, I think we've seen it all now.

Billiefan has proven to be hateful, intolerant, rude, disrespectful, sanctimonious, smug, and crass.

I've asked on another thread. I'll ask here, as well. Billiefan2000, what in your behavior shows us you are a believer in Christ Jesus? I am not asking for you to claim Christ as Lord and Savior, I'm asking a tougher question: If I were to meet you on the street today, what would tell me you are a believer in Christ?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by triadboy
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MartinGibbs
Maybe we could get them to put us in their wills--on event of being Raputred (not normal "death"), we get all their stuff.

Should we get Rapture Insurance for our cars?

When this thing goes down, (I assume it will be a Monday) I'm going to be driving on a freeway full of high-speed, driverless juggernauts - if there is a wreck, I'll need compensation.

If you arent going to be here,the Insurance either way wont be of any use.

Cause the Rapture is going to end up bankrupting the Insurance Companies,so it wont make no never mind anyway.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


If you arent going to be here,the Insurance either way wont be of any use.

Cause the Rapture is going to end up bankrupting the Insurance Companies,so it wont make no never mind anyway.

Will it, indeed?

I bet 50 bucks that it wont

[billiefan2000]

I will take that bet and I bet you will be ponying up the money if you are wrong(oh,wait I wont be here after the Rapture)

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I will take that bet and I bet you will be ponying up the money if you are wrong(oh,wait I wont be here after the Rapture)

Yeah, after some consideration, yes, I have to agree there is much more at stake. Our lifes. If the rapture takes place my life was wasted. If it never takes place your life was wasted

[Temporal Renegade]

Just because it's a Christian thing, doesn't make it true.
Judaism was around for a lot longer than that, so wouldn't it be more viable? After all, God was talking to Moses & Abraham a lot more than to professed Christians.

[triadboy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by billiefan2000
If you arent going to be here,the Insurance either way wont be of any use.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but AFTER the Rapture - isn't there a long period of time (before the uprising of the Antichrist) - where we that are left behind will be free of blithering xians? Maybe that's heaven.

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by triadboy
[QUOTE]Originally posted by billiefan2000
If you arent going to be here,the Insurance either way wont be of any use.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but AFTER the Rapture - isn't there a long period of time (before the uprising of the Antichrist) - where we that are left behind will be free of blithering xians? Maybe that's heaven.

Roadtoad,after the Rapture happens many will turn to Christ after realizing what happened to their Christian friends and Family Members and Revelation 7:9-14 proves this.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


Roadtoad,after the Rapture happens many will turn to Christ after realizing what happened to their Christian friends and Family Members and Revelation 7:9-14 proves this.

It proves it? Well, well…

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


Roadtoad,after the Rapture happens many will turn to Christ after realizing what happened to their Christian friends and Family Members and Revelation 7:9-14 proves this.

Billiefan is not only not a Christian, but a dope. It wasn't even my stinking post!

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Roadtoad


Billiefan is not only not a Christian, but a dope. It wasn't even my stinking post!

Hah - Roadtoad! You're going to hell in my place! Thanks, buddy! :wink:

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by triadboy


Hah - Roadtoad! You're going to hell in my place! Thanks, buddy! :wink:

With, or without optional handbasket?:cool:

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade


With, or without optional handbasket?:cool:

Probably with. I never go anywhere empty handed.

[billiefan2000]

Many Messianic Jews believe in the Pre Trib rapture as well.


Zola Levitt is one for instance.

[MartinGibbs]

I already took Pre-Trib, way back in high school!

Or, was that pre-trig...never can keep it all straight.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Many Messianic Jews believe in the Pre Trib rapture as well.


Zola Levitt is one for instance.

What else could his lordship say other than:

Who is Zola Levitt?

[justsaygnosis]

When will this thread die and stay dead?

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


What else could his lordship say other than:

Who is Zola Levitt?


http://www.levitt.com

will answer your question on who ZOLA LEVITT is.


and to:

justsaygnosis:


if the Rapture is a bunch of hogwash,why are you so hellbent on shutting up this discussion.


I mean,if the Rapture is a fraud,than why are so quick to shut up the discussion.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



http://www.levitt.com

will answer your question on who ZOLA LEVITT is.

No, it will not!

Do you know what a rhetorical question is?

(This was one)

Originally posted by billiefan2000

if the Rapture is a bunch of hogwash,why are you so hellbent on shutting up this discussion.


I mean,if the Rapture is a fraud,than why are so quick to shut up the discussion.

What discussion?


Edited to add:

Greetings from hell

[justsaygnosis]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by billiefan2000



http://www.levitt.com

and to:

justsaygnosis:


if the Rapture is a bunch of hogwash,why are you so hellbent on shutting up this discussion.


I mean,if the Rapture is a fraud,than why are so quick to shut up the discussion. [/QUOTE



The only response I can give you is we'll both be dead and rotted to nothingness before that which is never going to happen ever takes place.

[Roadtoad]

*Click, snap, flip, tic, tic, tic, tic, tic.... BOOM!!!!!!!!

There. Blew the sucker up. NOW STAY DEAD!

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
*Click, snap, flip, tic, tic, tic, tic, tic.... BOOM!!!!!!!!

There. Blew the sucker up. NOW STAY DEAD!

What do you mean? I don't see any thread here...must be your imagination!:roll:

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
Just because it's a Christian thing, doesn't make it true.
Judaism was around for a lot longer than that, so wouldn't it be more viable? After all, God was talking to Moses & Abraham a lot more than to professed Christians.


Maybe you should ask Zola Levitt and Sid Roth that question then.


Both are Messianice Jews.


not to mention look at the APOSTLE PAUL.


http://www.soon.org.uk/biblecharacters/sauls_conversion.htm

by the way is something you should check out TEMPORAL RENEGADE and anyone else reading,cause while you make you some good points,you forgot a few things.


also maybe you should check out:

http://www.messianictimes.com/

as well.

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


Can't you, for Goodnees' sake, do something other than just post some stupid links?

An example for what I mean by blatant lies are the Creationists, who, against all better knowldge, claim that the earth is only some 8 000 years old.

I could name lots of other instances…


Emsworth,no matter evidence I show you wont believe me,so all I have to say is:


When the Rapture does happen,dont be asking for evidence after that cause Millions of People Vanishing off the Face of the Earth in a Twinking of a Eye will be your proof then.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



Emsworth,no matter evidence I show you wont believe me,so all I have to say is:


When the Rapture does happen,dont be asking for evidence after that cause Millions of People Vanishing off the Face of the Earth in a Twinking of a Eye will be your proof then.
I question the validity of your evidence. It is bias. It doesnt uhhold the laws of rationality. It is far from scientifically accurate.

As for people vanishing off the face of the planet, that will never happen. Why? It is scientifically implausible. Poor stupid atheists always needing all this science and logic and reasoning and rationality... shame on us for thinking like that.

Lets say god exists (regardless of beliefs). What if your beliefs are wrong. What if the Rapture never happens. What if god is judged people on a matter of merit rather than faith. He wont be too happy with you trying to portray him as a psychotic megalomanic tyrannous killer of his own people.

In that case, I would assume Christianity is designed to help people live loving, caring, and morally. Thats all that realy matters right, living good lives. Regardless of faith, beliefs, I think living a good and productive life is much more important than fearing god, prayer, believing the bible.

What if I'm wrong... well then I wasnt given much of a chance in the first place. To be born a person who seeks intellect and born stubbornly rational is like being born a person who cannot be saved.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



Emsworth,no matter evidence I show you wont believe me,so all I have to say is:

You're right because all your evidences are based on the Bible. And I don't take anything out of that old book as evidence.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


You're right because all your evidences are based on the Bible. And I don't take anything out of that old book as evidence.
Ages shouldnt matter. It's the book's historical and scientific accuracy that is to question.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Ages shouldnt matter. It's the book's historical and scientific accuracy that is to question.

Well, you are right of course. But age usually doesn't add to making accurat interpretations.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



Emsworth,no matter evidence I show you wont believe me,so all I have to say is:


When the Rapture does happen,dont be asking for evidence after that cause Millions of People Vanishing off the Face of the Earth in a Twinking of a Eye will be your proof then.

Let me clarify things for you all.

Let's assume for a moment that Billiefan is right. (Quit that snickering!)

First of all, there's going to be seven years for people to get right, or get left.

But here's the kicker in this: Revelation has been held over the centuries to be symbolic, representing what the average Christian went through as Rome was going through its death throes. So, the likelihood of a rapture, seven years of misery, and then judgement, is a false view. The Dallas Theological Seminary even taught against it for years, as did Dr. Walter Martin. Billiefan is feeding us a line.

Second, if I were facing imminent judgement from an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, eternal, and immutable God, I would much rather face Him having demanded from people facts, logic, wisdom, compassion, courage, reason, love, passion. I would NOT want to face Him having simply jammed my fingers in the faces of people who are more or less strangers, alienating them, simply because it looked good when I went to Bible Study midweek, or hung out after Sunday night services.

See, that's what this really is about: Billiefan gets to tell everyone at church about all those mean old atheists, and those mean old liberal Christians, and especially, that mean old Roadtoad.

Hey, knock yourself out. Whatever turns your crank, Ace. But I'm willing to bet, that when you DO stand for judgement, someone like James Randi, or any of the posters here on this board, will stand in better stead. You may want to think about that one.

[Temporal Renegade]

I'd MUCH rather be judged by God than my fellow man; at least God will have all the facts, and not have to rely on what He doesn't know--nor would He 'go with the crowd'.

[a_unique_person]

I have seen pictures of xians being lifted up to heaven with all their clothes on and big smiles on their faces. But.... What if they were having a dump at the moment it happened. That would have to be pretty embarrassing.

Also, the earth is round, so if heaven is up, then wouldn't some people get pulled through the earth?

[a_unique_person]

It is also worth noting the rapture index is based on the number of bad and evil things happening in the world. These rapture people want the world to have disasters all over the place and people suffering and dying. Not good karma.

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
It is also worth noting the rapture index is based on the number of bad and evil things happening in the world. These rapture people want the world to have disasters all over the place and people suffering and dying. Not good karma.

What if it is being prepared for a storm that is comine.

I dont want bad stuff to happen,and neither do most rapture believers,so to say we are wishing bad stuff to happen shows how ingorant you are.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


What if it is being prepared for a storm that is comine.

I dont want bad stuff to happen,and neither do most rapture believers,so to say we are wishing bad stuff to happen shows how ingorant you are.

So, you must be hoping that the Bible is wrong. And that all that bad stuff will not happen.

Furthermore you must then be hoping that you yourself hold a false belief.

Or am I just ignorant?

[billiefan2000]

no matter what we do it will happen,but saving souls and bringing the lost to come to know Jesus is what we as Christians are doing:


Cuz once the rapture happens and you realize you have been left behind,you are going to want to turn to Jesus for Salvation,cause things will get bad.


By the way,GOD isnt to blame for what happens during the Tribulation.


The bad stuff that happens is a result of Humanity turning their backs on GOD.

[Lord Emsworth]

If humanity wouln't turn their backs to God the Rapture wouldn't happen?

[no one in particular]

Originally posted by billiefan2000

The bad stuff that happens is a result of Humanity turning their backs on GOD. So God did not already know when he created people that some of them would be damned to hell for eternity? Isn't God simply creating something for the sole purpose of destroying it?

It seems that God is using the earth to weed out the bad seeds so that good and saved people would be the only ones to get into heaven. My question is this: Why does God require this earth-sieve for people? If God were infallible, why not just make good people? Remember, he already knows whether you are going to hell before you are born.

[billiefan2000]

GOD dosent damn people to hell.


Humans damn themselves when they turn their backs on GOD.

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



By the way,GOD isnt to blame for what happens during the Tribulation.


The bad stuff that happens is a result of Humanity turning their backs on GOD.


But of course he would be. The fact that you use the Bible which you believe to be the word of God to “prove” your belief means this being knew well ahead of time ( all knowing ) of all things all events what each being would do long before they were born.

If a father knows a child will be killed yet allows the killer to be near his child he is not a good father and is in part to blame for the death of the child and in NO way a loving father.

If a father knows a child will be rapped and yet allow the rapist to be near the child and rape her/him he is not a good father and is in part to blame for the rape and suffering of the child and in NO way a loving father.


Any court would find this father unfit. Please my friend do not use the “free will” card as the child in these cases did not have free will, they would not want to be killed or rapped and their will would be NOT to be so.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
GOD dosent damn people to hell.


Humans damn themselves when they turn their backs on GOD.

Why then hasn't He created us in such a way that we cannot turn our back on Him?

He should have foreseen something like this or are we just His toys?

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
GOD dosent damn people to hell.


Humans damn themselves when they turn their backs on GOD.

How sad would be a father that predicates it’s love on simply a child worshiping him. We would all call him an ego filled self centered fool but so many believe a god is loving for being that way.

If this God knows before a being is born that that being ( due to many causes and conditions) will not believe in him or do wrong it is that GOD who is wrong for allowing it.

Why allow a being to be born who you know you will let suffer for doing what you did not want them to do when you knew they would not?

Silliness

A perfect being would be just that perfect no ego or need to be worshiped.

billiefan2000 i know this is fruitless as you will not answer but do you believe God has unconditional love?

[billiefan2000]

GOD gave us free will.


He gave us the Choice to follow him or turn our backs on him.

GOD dont allow bad things to happen. Humans do.

Humans are sinners and monsters from the get-go and that is why unless we turn to JESUS CHRIST who died on a cross 2000 years ago to pay for our sins,we will always be monsters and evil.


God gave us free will as a gift,and I guess you will never understand it Pahansiri and Emsworth cause you so blinded by hate,you dont see anything but hate in your eyes.

[no one in particular]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
GOD dosent damn people to hell.


Humans damn themselves when they turn their backs on GOD. Most certainly he does, unless you admit that God is unable to know our futures. God intentionally created beings that he knew would be damned for eternity. There are only two answers that I can see here billiefan:

1. God is not all knowing and all powerful

2. God is evil and is directly responsible for human suffering

I do not want to present a false dichotomy here, billiefan, so please tell me, what I am missing?

Also, know that free will is irrelevant because God created a being he knows will be damned to hell and he could have chosen not to create that individual. My statement here is not about individual choices, it is about God’s choice.

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
GOD gave us free will.


He gave us the Choice to follow him or turn our backs on him.

GOD dont allow bad things to happen. Humans do.

Humans are sinners and monsters from the get-go and that is why unless we turn to JESUS CHRIST who died on a cross 2000 years ago to pay for our sins,we will always be monsters and evil.


God gave us free will as a gift,and I guess you will never understand it Pahansiri and Emsworth cause you so blinded by hate,you dont see anything but hate in your eyes.

My friend as I have pointed out I hate no one and it is you who is always attacking non Christians and people you say are not “real” Christians, I also point out how that is a “sin” but you ignore that.

Just as you ignore my questions and that or others, why?

I pointed out that God does allow bad things to happen, he knows what, when and where they will but does nothing.

If a child gets rapped are you saying she asked for it ??? Really?

I will try again billiefan2000 i know this is fruitless as you will not answer but do you believe God has unconditional love?

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
GOD gave us free will.


He gave us the Choice to follow him or turn our backs on him.


GOD dont allow bad things to happen. Humans do.


So if we choose not to follow Him a lot of bad things will happen. If God was almighty He should have known that some will not follow Him. So why didn't He simply keep free will away from us? We would have followed, no bad things would happen, no Anti-christ…

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Humans are sinners and monsters from the get-go and that is why unless we turn to JESUS CHRIST who died on a cross 2000 years ago to pay for our sins,we will always be monsters and evil.


It was God who created us in this way. Remember! He created us as MONSTERS and SINNERS and yet you say he doesn't allow bad things to happen. So MONSTERS and SINNERS are not really a bad thing? Or what?



Originally posted by billiefan2000
God gave us free will as a gift,and I guess you will never understand it Pahansiri and Emsworth cause you so blinded by hate,you dont see anything but hate in your eyes.


No, I will never ever understand! But after all I, Lord Emsworth don't see humanity as a bunch of MONSTERS and SINNERS.


Edited for a missing bracket

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth



But after all I, Lord Emsworth don't see humanity as a bunch of MONSTERS and SINNERS.

:clap: well said my friend

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


So if we choose not to follow Him a lot of bad things will happen. If God was almighty He should have known that some will not follow Him. So why didn't He simply keep free will away from us? We would have followed, no bad things would happen, no Anti-christ…



It was God who created us in this way. Remember! He created us as MONSTERS and SINNERS and yet you say he doesn't allow bad things to happen. So MONSTERS and SINNERS are not really a bad thing? Or what?


So by saying it is okay to be bad,then you think Terrorists and Child Molestors and Rapists are okay then is what you are saying.



No, I will never ever understand! But after all I, Lord Emsworth don't see humanity as a bunch of MONSTERS and SINNERS.


Edited for a missing bracket

[Lord Emsworth]

Billiefan2000

could you please edit your post to make clear what I said and what you said.

It would be very much appreciated.

Thanks

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Is it my imagination, or did billie's reply have less content than his usual lack of content?

[Yahweh]

Alright, now I'm going to take the next few minutes dissecting this post... awesome use of my time.

Originally posted by billiefan2000
GOD gave us free will.
Humans were born with free will. The "God gave us free will" statement is completely baseless.


He gave us the Choice to follow him or turn our backs on him.
So my morality is based on my faith, not my action, right? That kind of thinking is pretty unfair to people not born into Christianity. I think that kind of thinking is completely ignorant. That kind of thinking borderlines of discrimination (people who dont worship God dont deserve to get equal treatment as people who do worship God).

You say "turn out backs on him" as if I reject the morality taught by Christianity. Of course not. I reject claims of the paranormal. There is a difference (quite a big difference).


GOD dont allow bad things to happen. Humans do.
Obviously.

Humans are sinners and monsters from the get-go and that is why unless we turn to JESUS CHRIST who died on a cross 2000 years ago to pay for our sins,we will always be monsters and evil.
"from the get-go"... not likely. Children are the only pure thing we have on the planet. They have not been spoiled by bias, prejudice, or influenced by others.

It sounds like anyone who does not have Jesus Christ in there hearts is a completely immoral and savage person... thats the most ignorant form of logic I've ever heard in my life. I couldn't give a s**t if Jesus died on the cross. Lots of people died by crucifix. Lots of people died defending there country. Hell, I'd give my life to save my wife's. That makes me a caring and devoted husband, I'm sure if God exists he'd think that'd be pretty cool.



God gave us free will as a gift,and I guess you will never understand it Pahansiri and Emsworth cause you so blinded by hate,you dont see anything but hate in your eyes.
I doubt its hate. Last I heard, logic, reason, the quest for understanding wasnt hate. Thats what we call intelligence.

[billiefan2000]

But did anyone besides Jesus come back from the dead 3 days later after being nailed to a cross.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Is it my imagination, or did billie's reply have less content than his usual lack of content?
GREAT SCOTT! YOURE RIGHT!

[Martin]

But did anyone besides Jesus come back from the dead 3 days later after being nailed to a crossI did. Prove me wrong.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Yahweh

GREAT SCOTT! YOURE RIGHT! He's not, you know. Billiefan's usual post has negative content. That one just had zero.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
So by saying it is okay to be bad,then you think Terrorists and Child Molestors and Rapists are okay then is what you are saying.

I have never said that "it is okay to be bad." I have never said that "Terrorists and Child Molestors and Rapists are okay". Show me where I have done so!

You however have said that
Originally posted by billiefan2000
Humans are sinners and monsters from the get-go
and when I furthermore assume that God created us, then the only conclusion I could possibly draw would be to assume that SINNERS and MONSTERS are not bad, because
Originally posted by billiefan2000
GOD dont allow bad things to happen.

And yet there are those
Originally posted by billiefan2000
Terrorists and Child Molestors and Rapistswho, I agree, are bad "things." But why, I ask you, doesn't the oh so Almighty God, who, remember, Originally posted by billiefan2000
dont allow bad things to happenallow these things to happen?

Why, oh why?

Oh, and Billiefan2000 that post is still not edited…

[triadboy]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
But did anyone besides Jesus come back from the dead 3 days later after being nailed to a cross.

Yes I believe a few of the dying god-men of pagan mystery religions rose after 3 days....just like your Jesus is supposed to have done. But they did it BEFORE Jesus did it! So they win!

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Is it my imagination, or did billie's reply have less content than his usual lack of content?

No, he is simply quoting me wrong. Some things which seem as being said by, are actually said by Billiefan2000.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
But did anyone besides Jesus come back from the dead 3 days later after being nailed to a cross.
That is a weak arguement.

First, I question the validity of that. It might just be a myth (It is a real possibility). Actually, in my mind I question whether Jesus existed at all, but for this post I am going use the adage that he did exist.

First, its impossible to come back from being brain dead. Most people just tend to say that just because it sounds like something only the devine can do. Its not hard to survive for 3 days without food or water. Everyone knows that crucifixion kills by asphyxiation, but hey, there are plenty of recorded stories of people surviving on those crosses for days and days (I realize thats a questionable fact, but I saw it on the Discovery Channel... still, its not at all unlikely). Crucifixion is not about killing people, its about keeping them in intense pain for the longest time before they die... not a very exact art. Jesus never died, he just survived the whole thing. During the Vietnam War, plenty of Americans can recite stories of being starved and brutually torchured for weeks, Jesus was just another POW. Depressing but true.

[Yahweh]

So far BillieFan, you have done a poor job at defending your beliefs. Could it be that your beliefs are wrong. All of your "facts" have been completely bias, one-sided, irrational, unscientific, implausible, lack logic, reasonless, and pathetic.

Philosoper Yahweh says, God doesnt exist. Of course you can never prove a negative, so I have to rephrase myself. God does exist. There, now its a false adage. Thats better.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


No, he is simply quoting me wrong. Some things which seem as being said by, are actually said by Billiefan2000.
Is he changing the content of your quote, or just applying absurd interpretations of it... in either case it seems like one BillieFan2000 is beginning to get a wee bit desperate.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
GOD dosent damn people to hell.

He might not want to, but according to the bible, he is going to do it anyway.




Humans damn themselves when they turn their backs on GOD.

Some "humans" neither reject or turn their back on God. For them , there is not enough evidence to suggest God exists. Why didn't God create concrete evidence. How unfair is it to send people to Hell simply because they could not find enough evidence to support a belief in God?

[Ruby]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
no matter what we do it will happen,but saving souls and bringing the lost to come to know Jesus is what we as Christians are doing:


Cuz once the rapture happens and you realize you have been left behind,you are going to want to turn to Jesus for Salvation,cause things will get bad.


By the way,GOD isnt to blame for what happens during the Tribulation.

If he isn't the one to blame for it, why is he starting it?

Revelation 9:1-6 "Then the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen to earth from the sky, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. When he opened it, smoke poured out as though from a huge furnace, and the sunlight and air were darkened by the smoke. Then locusts came from the smoke and descended on the earth, and they were given power to sting like scorpions. They were told not to hurt the grass or plants or trees but to attack all the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were told not to kill them but to torture them for five months with agony like the pain of scorpion stings. In those days people will seek death but will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee away!"

God is commisioning angels to pour out this tribulation. God is responsible.

But lets look at who these plagues and tribulations are directed at Rev. 9:20-21 "But the people who did not die in these plagues still refused to turn from their evil deeds. They continued to worship demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood--idols that neither see nor hear nor walk! And they did not repent of their murders or their witchcraft or their immorality or their thefts"

It seems the tribulation is directed at some evil murderous people who bow down to idols and worship demons. I don't know of any atheists or agnostics or liberal Christian or Jew etc., who hold to bowing down to idols, murder, and worshipping demons. Certainly no one on this forum fits that criteria.

If the Rapture occurred....which I don't beleive it will....as I think scripture has been misinterpreted, but if it did, most atheists and agnostics would have their proof and turn to Christ. Such a major supernatural occurance would be enough to convince most skeptics. It's those who worship *demons* or idols and are murderers who are going to resist. I suspect that even some of those will turn to christ too.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Pahansiri



But of course he would be. The fact that you use the Bible which you believe to be the word of God to “prove” your belief means this being knew well ahead of time ( all knowing ) of all things all events what each being would do long before they were born.

If a father knows a child will be killed yet allows the killer to be near his child he is not a good father and is in part to blame for the death of the child and in NO way a loving father.

If a father knows a child will be rapped and yet allow the rapist to be near the child and rape her/him he is not a good father and is in part to blame for the rape and suffering of the child and in NO way a loving father.


Any court would find this father unfit. Please my friend do not use the “free will” card as the child in these cases did not have free will, they would not want to be killed or rapped and their will would be NOT to be so.

You make some excellent points! It's certainly makes me wonder about the sort of God we are supposed to have.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
GOD gave us free will.


He gave us the Choice to follow him or turn our backs on him.

GOD dont allow bad things to happen. Humans do.

Humans are sinners and monsters from the get-go and that is why unless we turn to JESUS CHRIST who died on a cross 2000 years ago to pay for our sins,we will always be monsters and evil.

That is nonsense. It is also a very harsh thing for a Christian to say. Where in the bible does it say that people are "monsters"? There are some very moral, kind, compassionate, and christlike atheists and agnostics on this forum. Not one is a "monster." If you believe in God, then you must also know that God loves these so-called "monsters" just as much as you. You must also remember that Jesus Partied with "sinners" and won them over by his love and friendship, not his condemnation. He was also criticized for doing that by the Pharisees. You do not portray a Christlike personalty.


God gave us free will as a gift,and I guess you will never understand it Pahansiri and Emsworth cause you so blinded by hate,you dont see anything but hate in your eyes.

How have you deduced that Pahansiri and Lord Emsworth are blinded by hate? I do not see either one as being blinded by hate. I know people who are that way...some are Christians.....and it is always very evident by everyone. Being blinded by hate effects everyhting. All thier posts to everyone would be angry and attacking. they'd end up banned from JREF due to it. Being blinded by hate and showing it is not allowed on JREF as far as I know.

In my experience, when some people are losing a debate, they tend to resort to attacking people's characters. This is what I see happening here. You are blowing whatever testimony you intend you make. You can't brow beat and attack people into believing as you do. You must make friends. Learn about their beliefs. Respect their beliefs. Then present your way of seeing and believing in things in a calm and reasonable manner. I guess you are either very young or just inexperienced in debate and relationships. Take some time to grow and learn. Learn to love people, no matter what they believe. Don't go around looking at all non-believers as sinners and monsters. That will be destructive to you in the end. I speak that from past experience.

I don't say all this to be mean. I am just trying to help you.:rub:

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Ruby

Some "humans" neither reject or turn their back on God. For them , there is not enough evidence to suggest God exists. Why didn't God create concrete evidence. How unfair is it to send people to Hell simply because they could not find enough evidence to support a belief in God? Well, this is really the crux of it, isn't it?

billiefan2000 points to Isreal as evidence for his beliefs, but really, the creation of the current nation of Isreal has at least two possible causes: (1) supernatural influance from God in order to fullfill His biblical prophesy and/or (2) natural effot from human beings to settle a political issue (and maybe some historical guilt, I dunno).

If we allow that billie's "Biblical Truth" has validity at least as a possibility, then we really have no way of telling which was the root cause of the creation of the current nation of Isreal. Frankly, it's inconclusive, by itself, of either position.

So, given that, why should we accept the Christian God over another belief system or no belief system? billie would tell us, I imagine, that we should believe in his God because in doing so the Isreal evidence becomes proof. But this is circular reasoning. It's only proof if we have already accepted the premise.

So, why would God give us the capacity to choose to follow him or not, but not do anything to distinguish himself from the other options? It becomes a cosmic gamble with all options given equal weight with incredibly high stakes.

If God wants us to choose him over other possiblities, why did he not give us reason to?

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Ruby


That is nonsense. It is also a very harsh thing for a Christian to say. Where in the bible does it say that people are "monsters"? There are some very moral, kind, compassionate, and christlike atheists and agnostics on this forum. Not one is a "monster." If you believe in God, then you must also know that God loves these so-called "monsters" just as much as you. You must also remember that Jesus Partied with "sinners" and won them over by his love and friendship, not his condemnation. He was also criticized for doing that by the Pharisees. You do not portray a Christlike personalty.




How have you deduced that Pahansiri and Lord Emsworth are blinded by hate? I do not see either one as being blinded by hate. I know people who are that way...some are Christians.....and it is always very evident by everyone. Being blinded by hate effects everything. All their posts to everyone would be angry and attacking. they'd end up banned from JREF due to it. Being blinded by hate and showing it is not allowed on JREF as far as I know.

In my experience, when some people are losing a debate, they tend to resort to attacking people's characters. This is what I see happening here. You are blowing whatever testimony you intend you make. You can't brow beat and attack people into believing as you do. You must make friends. Learn about their beliefs. Respect their beliefs. Then present your way of seeing and believing in things in a calm and reasonable manner. I guess you are either very young or just inexperienced in debate and relationships. Take some time to grow and learn. Learn to love people, no matter what they believe. Don't go around looking at all non-believers as sinners and monsters. That will be destructive to you in the end. I speak that from past experience.

I don't say all this to be mean. I am just trying to help you.:rub:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Well, this is really the crux of it, isn't it?

billiefan2000 points to Isreal as evidence for his beliefs, but really, the creation of the current nation of Isreal has at least two possible causes: (1) supernatural influance from God in order to fullfill His biblical prophesy and/or (2) natural effot from human beings to settle a political issue (and maybe some historical guilt, I dunno).

If we allow that billie's "Biblical Truth" has validity at least as a possibility, then we really have no way of telling which was the root cause of the creation of the current nation of Isreal. Frankly, it's inconclusive, by itself, of either position.

So, given that, why should we accept the Christian God over another belief system or no belief system? billie would tell us, I imagine, that we should believe in his God because in doing so the Isreal evidence becomes proof. But this is circular reasoning. It's only proof if we have already accepted the premise.

So, why would God give us the capacity to choose to follow him or not, but not do anything to distinguish himself from the other options? It becomes a cosmic gamble with all options given equal weight with incredibly high stakes.

If God wants us to choose him over other possiblities, why did he not give us reason to?

Yes, these are the things I am pondering. I used to use the "Israel" type argument too, but now I see it has some flawed logic to it. I feel a bit...no, a lot, of doubt concerning my past beliefs about God. Still I believe He exists, but not sure why, how, or what for.........or if the bible has any divine inspiration to it. I tend to believe it was written by man and is so open to various interpretation that it could not possibly be penned by God. :confused:

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Ruby

or if the bible has any divine inspiration to it. I tend to believe it was written by man and is so open to various interpretation that it could not possibly be penned by God. Believe it or not, even as an atheist, I am open to the possibility that there might be something out there resembling our concept of "God". However, I feel quite confident that if such a "something" exists, it didn't directly inspire the Christian Bible or, really, any religious text that I'm familiar with. Well, that is, unless it somehow intended to screw with us using contradicitions, inaccuracies and paradoxes, which seems kind of juvanille for something that esembles our concept of "God".

If you're trying to look for clues to God in the past, limiting yourself only to the Christian Bible is like studying human anatomy by only studying the left arm.

edited to add: maybe a better analogy is to say that you would only be studying the shadow of the left arm...

Ponderous, man. Really ponderous...

[Temporal Renegade]

The real trouble with Turth is, it's what you yourself make of it.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that evidence of God was, indeed, found; not more scrolls, but actual, concrete PROOF (fill in whatever you want). It still wouldn't make everyone in the world drop to their knees and pray, begging for forgiveness. If anything, it would probably heat the debate up more, making some question if it really indeed WAS real, and not a scam to get people to convert.

On the other hand, let's also say that real proof of God's NON-existance was found instead: No Heaven, no Hell, no after-life, no Jesus, NOTHING.
Would it make everyone throw up their hands and say, "Oh NO! We've been duped! How could we have fallen for THAT!?!?" No. It would be supressed (or attemped), torn apart, and just looked upon as LIES.

Neither side can win, because there will always be someone who would question the validity. If the Rapture were reality, I still think it ain't going to happen YET, because it should have already happened in the past, when more people believed, and times were infinately harder than they are now...

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
The real trouble with Turth is, it's what you yourself make of it.I'd argue that truth (little "t") is what you make of it. The concept of Truth (big "T") is that it's independent of the observer and, therefore, you can't make it anything.
Neither side can win, because there will always be someone who would question the validity.You're right, of course, but I'm not really interested in "beating the other side", per se. My only concern is that religious/supersticious thought not eclipse rational/scientific thought, which would lead to another dark age. That's probably my worst fear for society in general.

Actually, I wouldn't consider religious/supersticious thought dying out altogether a victory either.

[Temporal Renegade]

And, of course, the only real way to prove it, one way or the other, is to die yourself.
That's a bit more than I wnat to do at the moment, though. Much happier to debate it, than to 'find out first hand'!

[Pahansiri]

Greetings Ruby.

First allow me to say your post are always very good and I have enjoyed them.

Also before I get to the main point of my post allow me to post 3 passages from the Christian bible more so addressing our young friend billiefan2000 and his position but knowing he will ignore and or justify them but you will see their point.


By the way,GOD isnt to blame for what happens during the Tribulation. - billiefan2000


Lamentations 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth oh the most high that good and evil come?'


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.-Isaiah 45:7

John 1:3 says 'ALL things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. ' ..


Again these will mean little to billiefan2000 and people like our friend who base their beliefs on a deep seeded fear. When one sees with eyes of fear that is all they can see all becomes, that is anything that is not within “who they are” what the believe, becomes the “enemy” .

Anything not within their beliefs just MUST be wrong and evil and so attacked. The hypocrisy is while they condone their hate and attacks as “love” they become so very angry if the same is done to them.

Like our friend billiefan2000 I or we can point out all they do or say that is a “sin” and they ignore it or justify it, they judge everyone but become so hurt or angry if they feel they are being judged.

They can in their mind justify their “sins” as it is OK because they are doing Gods work. Sadly and I mean you no disrespect but the way the Bible is written and all the contradictions they can find the fuel to it.

If one wishes to lie they can simply ignore “ Thou shall not lie” and look to Rom.3:7 we find Paul say:

Rom.3:7
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"

Similar themes or condoning lies can be found is Jos.2:4-6 - Jas.2:25- Ex.1:18-20- 1 Kg.22:21-22- 2 Kg.8:10- 2 Cor.12:16

Of course Christians are told not to follow false prophets yet we find:

1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

II Thess. 2:11; For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

So God not only makes people lie, he forces them to believe it then punishes them for it.

Is that the actions of a loving father?

To my main point and I am so very sorry I am long winded.



Thomas Paine said Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man. –


The Bible offers far too many examples of an angry cruel God these 2 being just a tiny example.

The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. -Exodus 15:3


'Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found
will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be
dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.'..........Isaiah 13:9, 13:15


Yet so many in God based beliefs be it Christian or others speak of “ Gods love” or God as a father and for that reason I seek always to use the father analogy in exchanging ideas or beliefs.

Mark Twain said If God is as vast as that, he is above blasphemy;
if he is as little as that, he is beneath it. -Mark Twain

A perfect being could be nothing less then perfect, nothing less. No flaws, no ego, no hate, no fear, no anger, no needs or desires, no thought as a all knowing mind would be beyond thought.

Such a being could not have a desire or ever predicate its love and compassion on its ego. A true loving father does not place his needs before that of a child.

A good and loving father that has full knowledge of an event that the child will do or have done to them and does nothing to change it or allows the person of event that will harm the child near the child is simply an unloving unfit parent.

Look to the story of “ original sin”: a father places a candy bar on the table before a hungry child telling him not to eat it but knowing full well the child will. He stands behind the kitchen door and allows a pedophile to enter the room and tempt the child and tell them it is really OK to eat it. Also the father did not bother to tell the child there was another candy bar he could eat that was on the cabinet top. We will call this the candy bar of life.

The father burst into the room angry because something he KNEW would happen, just happened. He allows the pedophile to be free to harm anyone he wants even though he has full control over him being all powerful and all. But he get angry at the child, he not only punishes the child rather then teach and talk to him/her with love he also punishes all children he will have later for the same candy bar eating even though they did not do it.

May I ask you as a mother if you had a child when you were 18 and that child broke your best plate would you punish the other children you had later in life or any that followed that child, for breaking the plate?


I often ask my Christian friends “ does God have Unconditional love?

Ones who will answer, say YES of course. I then ask “ what is the definition of Unconditional?

Most do not answer, we know Unconditional means to be without ANY conditions, none. To have Unconditional love is to have a love with no bounds love that is free from any conditions.


My friend you are finding, as to your leaving your church something Mark Twain. Said very well in this quote
'A man is accepted into church for what he believes--and turned out for what he knows.'
Mark Twain.

May you and all beings be well and happy.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Pahansiri
Greetings Ruby.

First allow me to say your post are always very good and I have enjoyed them.

Also before I get to the main point of my post allow me to post 3 passages from the Christian bible more so addressing our young friend billiefan2000 and his position but knowing he will ignore and or justify them but you will see their point.


[b]Lamentations 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth oh the most high that good and evil come?'


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.-Isaiah 45:7

John 1:3 says 'ALL things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. ' ..


Again these will mean little to billiefan2000 and people like our friend who base their beliefs on a deep seeded fear. When one sees with eyes of fear that is all they can see all becomes, that is anything that is not within “who they are” what the believe, becomes the “enemy” .

Yep, I will be surprised if Billiefan will respond.

Anything not within their beliefs just MUST be wrong and evil and so attacked. The hypocrisy is while they condone their hate and attacks as “love” they become so very angry if the same is done to them.

Yes, unfortunately, at one time in my life, I had the same messed up way of thinking!

Like our friend billiefan2000 I or we can point out all they do or say that is a “sin” and they ignore it or justify it, they judge everyone but become so hurt or angry if they feel they are being judged.
They can in their mind justify their “sins” as it is OK because they are doing Gods work. Sadly and I mean you no disrespect but the way the Bible is written and all the contradictions they can find the fuel to it.

You are right!!

If one wishes to lie they can simply ignore “ Thou shall not lie” and look to Rom.3:7 we find Paul say:

Rom.3:7
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"

Similar themes or condoning lies can be found is Jos.2:4-6 - Jas.2:25- Ex.1:18-20- 1 Kg.22:21-22- 2 Kg.8:10- 2 Cor.12:16

Of course Christians are told not to follow false prophets yet we find:

1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

II Thess. 2:11; For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

So God not only makes people lie, he forces them to believe it then punishes them for it.

Is that the actions of a loving father?

It does seem pretty messed up.

To my main point and I am so very sorry I am long winded.

No problem.....sorry my responses are short!



Thomas Paine said


The Bible offers far too many examples of an angry cruel God these 2 being just a tiny example.

The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. -Exodus 15:3


'Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found
will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be
dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.'..........Isaiah 13:9, 13:15


Yet so many in God based beliefs be it Christian or others speak of “ Gods love” or God as a father and for that reason I seek always to use the father analogy in exchanging ideas or beliefs.

Which is a powerful analogy to use.

Mark Twain said

A perfect being could be nothing less then perfect, nothing less. No flaws, no ego, no hate, no fear, no anger, no needs or desires, no thought as a all knowing mind would be beyond thought.

Such a being could not have a desire or ever predicate its love and compassion on its ego. A true loving father does not place his needs before that of a child.

A good and loving father that has full knowledge of an event that the child will do or have done to them and does nothing to change it or allows the person of event that will harm the child near the child is simply an unloving unfit parent.

Look to the story of “ original sin”: a father places a candy bar on the table before a hungry child telling him not to eat it but knowing full well the child will. He stands behind the kitchen door and allows a pedophile to enter the room and tempt the child and tell them it is really OK to eat it. Also the father did not bother to tell the child there was another candy bar he could eat that was on the cabinet top. We will call this the candy bar of life.

The father burst into the room angry because something he KNEW would happen, just happened. He allows the pedophile to be free to harm anyone he wants even though he has full control over him being all powerful and all. But he get angry at the child, he not only punishes the child rather then teach and talk to him/her with love he also punishes all children he will have later for the same candy bar eating even though they did not do it.

May I ask you as a mother if you had a child when you were 18 and that child broke your best plate would you punish the other children you had later in life or any that followed that child, for breaking the plate?

Of course not! Many Christians live with this belief today. While others reject it based on it being an Old Testiment curse......one which Jesus freed us from by his death on the cross.


I often ask my Christian friends “ does God have Unconditional love?

Ones who will answer, say YES of course. I then ask “ what is the definition of Unconditional?

Most do not answer, we know Unconditional means to be without ANY conditions, none. To have Unconditional love is to have a love with no bounds love that is free from any conditions.

I used to think the love of God was unconditional, but all I have experienced is to the contrary!!!


My friend you are finding, as to your leaving your church something Mark Twain. Said very well in this quote "'A man is accepted into church for what he believes--and turned out for what he knows.'
Mark Twain.

Oh, I like that quote. Do you mind if I use it. ?:D

[Roadtoad]

I've been out for a bit. An overnight run. (Damn, I want to get a better gig SO BAD....)

Billiefan, you have demonstrated over two days that you are not even remotely Christian. You have lied about Emsworth and Pahansiri. You refuse to get your facts straight. You have posted some of the most hateful, evil, ugly posts I've read anywhere.

Let me make this suggestion one more time: GROW THE F*** UP! I spent two days on the road, dealing with people like you, and frankly, I'm a little sick of it.

(Sorry. No sleep. And damn it, I'm cranky. Deal with it.)

[Yahweh]

Ruby, you are the coolest person ever! :wink: ;) :wink: ;) :wink:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Ruby, you are the coolest person ever! :wink: ;) :wink: ;) :wink:

Thank you!!! It's great to know I have friends on JREF. I feel so friendless in real life! Lost most of my friends from my church departure. In a way, I don't think they were my friends to begin with.:(

BTW, I think you are cool too!!:cool:

[Pahansiri]

Greetings my friend Ruby.

Please know I do not seek to “change” your mind or beliefs and really have no power to do so, no one does, I wish just to express my thoughts and exchange thoughts.

You write in response to my look at “original sin ” and the Adam and Eve story.
Of course not! Many Christians live with this belief today. While others reject it based on it being an Old Testiment curse......one which Jesus freed us from by his death on the cross.

I am not sure where you stand I am confident it is not in the first camp but am not sure if you still fall within the 2nd and respect your beliefs if it is, but please allow me to look logically into the stories.

I am again working form a point that this being “God” would be all knowing, perfect and all-powerful and seen as a Father.
The crucifixion story as to the theory of “having” to do it

1. If this event was needed to clear up a “sin” that no other being did but “Adam and Eve” and after this event all beings would now be free from this sin, that they did not do what of the, ( using the Christian belief or a 6000 year old world) billions who lived before this event? Are they all just screwed? Did God yank them back out of “hell”, how many ? All, some, none?
2. An all knowing being, again would know of anything that would happen long before it created us so this would be again his fault and an exercise in futility.
3. Do you as a parent teach your child that only through violence can things be made right?
4. What of the free will of the Romans or Judas it would seem they had no choice then to play out this event, so how were they wrong? If I kill a man by beating him to death with a puppet it is me who controlled the puppet who did wrong not the puppet.
5. To say that this event “freed us” from that sin is to agree that one would again say that something they feel is wrong, is right. Back to the analogy of the father that knows his child will do eat the candy bar, places the bar within reach allows into the room someone he knows will convince the child to eat it. Then becomes angry because what he knows would happen, did and so punishes the child, any children born after that child, grand children, great grandchildren etc etc ALL for eating a candy bar they did not eat only the first child.
6. You would not do this nor would any loving parent yet praise a God who did?
7. Would you as a loving parent send your child to suffer rather then do it yourself?
8. Would you as a loving parent allow anyone to suffer when you had the full control to stop it, and say if there some “debt” OK please don’t do it again. Teach them through love not violence.


Many will say this was the greatest display and sacrifice to die on the cross for “our sins”.

Many, many have died to save other people not knowing one way or the other they would be OK. This is like seeing a starving man and making a grand show by giving him the last $5.00 you have in your pocket while knowing you have food and money at home.

A materialist Atheist who gives his life to save others, now that is a true sacrifice of love, unconditional love.

I often am told I can not look at God in human terms that it would be wrong to look at “him” as a human father. To which I must ask is it not wrong to look at “him” as such?

Why would you find good and right in a perfect being actions you find evil and wrong in imperfect being? Do you tell your child it is wrong to kill but OK for God because he is God?

So good is good and bad is bad but if it is God good is good and bad is also good? It is OK to be angry, vengeful, kill, lie, make suffer etc if you are a perfect being but not a imperfect one? So is being good and right perfect or is being bad, wrong and harmful perfect?

Fear allows so many to justify anything.




You write : I used to think the love of God was unconditional, but all I have experienced is to the contrary!!!

So is God perfect then? Why allow some to suffer far more then others? Why allow suffering at all? If a perfect being can not have the love of an imperfect mother then can this being really be a God?


How can things seen as wrong in humans, be seen as right in a God?

Christians hate abortion ( I wish there was not a need for it, love, teaching loving kindness, respect and compassion will ease it not making illegal again that just drives it to dirty underground butcher shops.) yet they worship a God that has openly “ as to the Bible” killed so many.

Flooding them, sending bears to tear them apart, asking his followers to kill them for him, plagues etc.

We also jump for joy and say how cool it is that our smart bombs are “so neat” knowing they kill countless innocent, we call them “casualties of war”, that is unless it happens to us then it is sinful and a tragedy.

This can be said for many things found in the Bible that we would call “sin” if done by humans yet OK because God did it or had someone do it. Slavery, sex with children, stealing etc etc.

In In Ezekiel 23, for instance, God is stated to have had children by two prostitutes: .......... 'The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying: Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth; there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity. And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister; and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters.' (Ezekiel 23:1-4)

On how many levels is this wrong?



We pray to God that our children be healthy and not have birth Defects yet God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc. Exodus 4:11 The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

Would not a loving father give up his life rather then have his child suffer so?

Let me leave you to consider this.

If “1 John 4:8] ...God is love.” And [1 Cor 13:5] Love...keeps no record of wrongs.” And
“..Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;...it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;...it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right...Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things...LOVE NEVER FAILS; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues,they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away...[1Cor 13:4-8]”and “[1John 4:18.8] There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.”””
Then
1) it is clear”he” keeps no record of wrongs and does not judge.
2) “he” is not and can not be a “jealous” God.
3) “he” has no ego and can not demand to or wish to be worshiped or placed before any other
4) “he” does NOT “insist on his own way”
5) Does not want to be feared in any way.
And
Does not punish.


May you and all beings be well and happy

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Pahansiri
Greetings my friend Ruby.

Please know I do not seek to “change” your mind or beliefs and really have no power to do so, no one does, I wish just to express my thoughts and exchange thoughts.

You write in response to my look at “original sin ” and the Adam and Eve story.


I am not sure where you stand I am confident it is not in the first camp but am not sure if you still fall within the 2nd and respect your beliefs if it is, but please allow me to look logically into the stories.

Even I am not sure where I stand. I am still trying to figure it all out. Some days, I just don't want to think about any of it!!

I am again working form a point that this being “God” would be all knowing, perfect and all-powerful and seen as a Father.
The crucifixion story as to the theory of “having” to do it

1. If this event was needed to clear up a “sin” that no other being did but “Adam and Eve” and after this event all beings would now be free from this sin, that they did not do what of the, ( using the Christian belief or a 6000 year old world) billions who lived before this event? Are they all just screwed? Did God yank them back out of “hell”, how many ? All, some, none?

I cannot conceive of God sending anyone to hell. That's the only way I know how to answer that question for now.

2. An all knowing being, again would know of anything that would happen long before it created us so this would be again his fault and an exercise in futility.

Yes. I have a problem with the claims of christians that God is omniscient and therefore taking care of them!!

3. Do you as a parent teach your child that only through violence can things be made right?

No way!

4. What of the free will of the Romans or Judas it would seem they had no choice then to play out this event, so how were they wrong? If I kill a man by beating him to death with a puppet it is me who controlled the puppet who did wrong not the puppet.
5. To say that this event “freed us” from that sin is to agree that one would again say that something they feel is wrong, is right. Back to the analogy of the father that knows his child will do eat the candy bar, places the bar within reach allows into the room someone he knows will convince the child to eat it. Then becomes angry because what he knows would happen, did and so punishes the child, any children born after that child, grand children, great grandchildren etc etc ALL for eating a candy bar they did not eat only the first child.
6. You would not do this nor would any loving parent yet praise a God who did?
7. Would you as a loving parent send your child to suffer rather then do it yourself?
8. Would you as a loving parent allow anyone to suffer when you had the full control to stop it, and say if there some “debt” OK please don’t do it again. Teach them through love not violence.

You are preaching to the choir!!:-)


Many will say this was the greatest display and sacrifice to die on the cross for “our sins”.

Many, many have died to save other people not knowing one way or the other they would be OK. This is like seeing a starving man and making a grand show by giving him the last $5.00 you have in your pocket while knowing you have food and money at home.

The point of view most Christians take is that Jesus had the full power to stop his crucifiction from happening. He was God in flesh, but chose to suffer and be tempted as we do. That is supposed to show how much he loved us. He took on sin in some supernatural way on the cross and bought our salvation. Oh God, I am sounding like a preacher!!!!:eek:

A materialist Atheist who gives his life to save others, now that is a true sacrifice of love, unconditional love.

Yes, it is. Supposedly, God rewards those who die for others.

I often am told I can not look at God in human terms that it would be wrong to look at “him” as a human father. To which I must ask is it not wrong to look at “him” as such?

I have difficulty looking at God in any form...except to feel some fear....and confusion...and disillusionment.

Why would you find good and right in a perfect being actions you find evil and wrong in imperfect being? Do you tell your child it is wrong to kill but OK for God because he is God?

So good is good and bad is bad but if it is God good is good and bad is also good? It is OK to be angry, vengeful, kill, lie, make suffer etc if you are a perfect being but not a imperfect one? So is being good and right perfect or is being bad, wrong and harmful perfect?

Fear allows so many to justify anything.

Yes, it does.




So is God perfect then? Why allow some to suffer far more then others? Why allow suffering at all? If a perfect being can not have the love of an imperfect mother then can this being really be a God?

I don't know...wish I did.


How can things seen as wrong in humans, be seen as right in a God?

Christians hate abortion ( I wish there was not a need for it, love, teaching loving kindness, respect and compassion will ease it not making illegal again that just drives it to dirty underground butcher shops.) yet they worship a God that has openly “ as to the Bible” killed so many.

Flooding them, sending bears to tear them apart, asking his followers to kill them for him, plagues etc.

We also jump for joy and say how cool it is that our smart bombs are “so neat” knowing they kill countless innocent, we call them “casualties of war”, that is unless it happens to us then it is sinful and a tragedy.

This can be said for many things found in the Bible that we would call “sin” if done by humans yet OK because God did it or had someone do it. Slavery, sex with children, stealing etc etc.

In In Ezekiel 23, for instance, God is stated to have had children by two prostitutes: .......... 'The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying: Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth; there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity. And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister; and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters.' (Ezekiel 23:1-4)

On how many levels is this wrong?

I am asking myself some of the very same things and looking a the same passages and heaving great sighs of frustration and confusion.



We pray to God that our children be healthy and not have birth Defects yet God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc. Exodus 4:11 The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

In my experience, God does not heal or answer prayer. So, it's no surprise that children are born with deformities.

Would not a loving father give up his life rather then have his child suffer so?

Let me leave you to consider this.

If “1 John 4:8] ...God is love.” And [1 Cor 13:5] Love...keeps no record of wrongs.” And
“..Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;...it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;...it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right...Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things...LOVE NEVER FAILS; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues,they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away...[1Cor 13:4-8]”and “[1John 4:18.8] There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.”””
Then
1) it is clear”he” keeps no record of wrongs and does not judge.
2) “he” is not and can not be a “jealous” God.
3) “he” has no ego and can not demand to or wish to be worshiped or placed before any other
4) “he” does NOT “insist on his own way”
5) Does not want to be feared in any way.
And
Does not punish.


May you and all beings be well and happy [/B]

Same to you!!:)

[the_ignored]

Check this (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1050027#post1050027) post out!

It's in a thread started by our own billiefan! Sadly, though, most of the people there agree with him! The guy's post above is the only voice of reason on that entire thread.

[Jet Grind]

Those people are delusional.

It seems to me that Christians like to validate themselves by pretending that they're being persecuted. It gives them a sense of cuperiority that they can't get in the real world.

It's a good thing that link was there to talk some sense into them. Whoever he is, I want to shake his hand.

[billiefan2000]

bump

[Lord Emsworth]

If you want this thread bumped, discuss Billiefan2000.

For example, how about this:

Originally posted by billiefan2000
So by saying it is okay to be bad,then you think Terrorists and Child Molestors and Rapists are okay then is what you are saying.

I have never said that "it is okay to be bad." I have never said that "Terrorists and Child Molestors and Rapists are okay". Show me where I have done so!

You however have said that
Originally posted by billiefan2000
Humans are sinners and monsters from the get-go
and when I furthermore assume that God created us, then the only conclusion I could possibly draw would be to assume that SINNERS and MONSTERS are not bad, because
Originally posted by billiefan2000
GOD dont allow bad things to happen.

And yet there are those
Originally posted by billiefan2000
Terrorists and Child Molestors and Rapistswho, I agree, are bad "things." But why, I ask you, doesn't the oh so Almighty God, who, remember, Originally posted by billiefan2000
dont allow bad things to happenallow these things to happen?

Why, oh why?

[Lord Emsworth]

bump

[Ruby]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
bump

I am SO glad you are bumping!!

Now don't run away again...there's nothing to be afraid of here...it's not like facing lions!

Will you be so kind to answer the following questions. Pardon me while I cut and paste from previous posts! (Everything that I'd like you to repsond to is in red. )

-------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by billiefan2000


"You mean like the Radical gay Rights Fanatics who try to convert Churches into Lukewarm Chuches (i.e. METHODISTS and ANGLICANS)"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(I asked)What makes these churches Lukewarm? They love and serve God too.

Originally posted by billiefan2000
"if any Church starts Contradicting Christian Teachings and start becoming Secular and PC then they are Lukewarm Churches. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(I asked)In what way have Methodists and Anglican's become secular?

What is your definition of secular? I ask because that definition varies from Christian to Christian.

Originally posted by billiefan2000
"GOD dosent damn people to hell."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(my response)He might not want to, but according to the bible, he is going to do it anyway.





Originally posted by Billiefan
"Humans damn themselves when they turn their backs on GOD."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(my response)Some "humans" neither reject or turn their back on God. For them , there is not enough evidence to suggest God exists. Why didn't God create concrete evidence. How unfair is it to send people to Hell simply because they could not find enough evidence to support a belief in God?

Originally posted by billiefan2000
"no matter what we do it will happen,but saving souls and bringing the lost to come to know Jesus is what we as Christians are doing:


Cuz once the rapture happens and you realize you have been left behind,you are going to want to turn to Jesus for Salvation,cause things will get bad.


By the way,GOD isnt to blame for what happens during the Tribulation."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(I asked)If he isn't the one to blame for it, why is he starting it?

Revelation 9:1-6 "Then the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen to earth from the sky, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. When he opened it, smoke poured out as though from a huge furnace, and the sunlight and air were darkened by the smoke. Then locusts came from the smoke and descended on the earth, and they were given power to sting like scorpions. They were told not to hurt the grass or plants or trees but to attack all the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were told not to kill them but to torture them for five months with agony like the pain of scorpion stings. In those days people will seek death but will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee away!"

God is commissioning angels to pour out this tribulation. God is responsible.

But lets look at who these plagues and tribulations are directed at Rev. 9:20-21 "But the people who did not die in these plagues still refused to turn from their evil deeds. They continued to worship demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood--idols that neither see nor hear nor walk! And they did not repent of their murders or their witchcraft or their immorality or their thefts"

It seems the tribulation is directed at some evil murderous people who bow down to idols and worship demons. I don't know of any atheists or agnostics or liberal Christian or Jew etc., who hold to bowing down to idols, murder, and worshipping demons. Certainly no one on this forum fits that criteria.

If the Rapture occurred....which I don't believe it will....as I think scripture has been misinterpreted, but if it did, most atheists and agnostics would have their proof and turn to Christ. Such a major supernatural occurance would be enough to convince most skeptics. It's those who worship *demons* or idols and are murderers who are going to resist. I suspect that even some of those will turn to christ too.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
"GOD gave us free will.


He gave us the Choice to follow him or turn our backs on him.

GOD dont allow bad things to happen. Humans do.

Humans are sinners and monsters from the get-go and that is why unless we turn to JESUS CHRIST who died on a cross 2000 years ago to pay for our sins,we will always be monsters and evil."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(my response)That is nonsense. It is also a very harsh thing for a Christian to say. Where in the bible does it say that people are "monsters"? There are some very moral, kind, compassionate, and christlike atheists and agnostics on this forum. Not one is a "monster." If you believe in God, then you must also know that God loves these so-called "monsters" just as much as you. You must also remember that Jesus Partied with "sinners" and won them over by his love and friendship, not his condemnation. He was also criticized for doing that by the Pharisees. You do not portray a Christlike personalty.



quote by billiefan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"God gave us free will as a gift,and I guess you will never understand it Pahansiri and Emsworth cause you so blinded by hate,you dont see anything but hate in your eyes. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(my response)How have you deduced that Pahansiri and Lord Emsworth are blinded by hate? I do not see either one as being blinded by hate. I know people who are that way...some are Christians.....and it is always very evident by everyone. Being blinded by hate effects everyhting. All their posts to everyone would be angry and attacking. they'd end up banned from JREF due to it. Being blinded by hate and showing it is not allowed on JREF as far as I know.

In my experience, when some people are losing a debate, they tend to resort to attacking people's characters. This is what I see happening here. You are blowing whatever testimony you intend you make. You can't brow beat and attack people into believing as you do. You must make friends. Learn about their beliefs. Respect their beliefs. Then present your way of seeing and believing in things in a calm and reasonable manner. I guess you are either very young or just inexperienced in debate and relationships. Take some time to grow and learn. Learn to love people, no matter what they believe. Don't go around looking at all non-believers as sinners and monsters. That will be destructive to you in the end. I speak that from past experience.

I don't say all this to be mean. I am just trying to help you.

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
"no matter what we do it will happen,but saving souls and bringing the lost to come to know Jesus is what we as Christians are doing:


Cuz once the rapture happens and you realize you have been left behind,you are going to want to turn to Jesus for Salvation,cause things will get bad.

billiefan2000 my friend I want to test your faith, I wish you to show me how strongly you believe in Christ, the rapture and what you believe in. OK?

Do this test for me and it may help the lost here to follow and be saved by you.

My e-mail address is mbertran@nycap.rr.com.

Please e-mail me and I will provided you with the contact information for my attorneys.

When you contact them they will ask you to sign over anything you may own, car, home etc also get your parents to do this and all your friends who believe the rapture is soon.

Give them all bank account numbers for everyone you know who believes as you do.

This will help start people believing you believe what you say.

My attorneys will hold all this information and papers signed by you all and these papers that you MUST sign if you really believe in the rapture and Christ will stipulate that I nor anyone can take position of the items or cash until you guys leave but I do from the signing of the paper own it all. ( run on sentence ..lol sorry)
As I have said I will one your car and house etc right now but will not take them from you until you leave.

I will use this money and things to help others, you know me and know I would do just that.

I will also be convinced if millions of Christians, well “real” Christians ( so that means you and 6 others I assume) are gone in the blink of an eye that you were right and use someone the money to convince others.

OK?

That is my deal it is all up to you now, what kind of Christian are you? Do you REALLY believe in the rapture and Christ?

The next move is yours, a “Lukewarm” Christian would not respond but you say you are a “REAL” Christian so I just KNOW you will… Please any excuses or non-response would mean you “Hate Jesus”






:jaw:

[Temporal Renegade]

For those who may be interested...
a friend sent me this, and I just had to share.

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/stopgod/petition.html

Comments, anyone?

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
For those who may be interested...
a friend sent me this, and I just had to share.

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/stopgod/petition.html

Comments, anyone?


How do you plan to stop GOD,he created you and he is Immortal.

[Pahansiri]

billiefan2000 no responce to my test? Don't you trust God?


Can it be you don't really believe in the rapture?

[calladus]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
How do you plan to stop GOD,he created you and he is Immortal.
And apparently he loves to do bad things.

Hence the petition.

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Pahansiri
billiefan2000 no responce to my test? Don't you trust God?


Can it be you don't really believe in the rapture?


But why should I give you or any of the other Atheists here my stuff then?


I thought you people didnt believe in GOD or the rapture.


I think you guys do believe the Rapture will happen,cause after all,why would you be asking someone who is going in the rapture to give away his stuff then?

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by calladus

And apparently he loves to do bad things.

Hence the petition.

Terrorists do bad things and people in general do bad things,so why dont you stop them?


Or is it easier for your lazy self to blame GOD and others for your laziness and lack of will power to help make the world a better place.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Terrorists do bad things and people in general do bad things,so why dont you stop them?

Didn't God create those terrorists?

And do they not really think they are fighting the good fight?


Originally posted by billiefan2000

Or is it easier for your lazy self to blame GOD and others for your laziness and lack of will power to help make the world a better place.

LOL, lazy self, LOL.

Aren't the people who take prefabricated 'moral values' without questioning them really the lazy ones?



Oh, Billifan2000 :rub:

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



But why should I give you or any of the other Atheists here my stuff then?


I thought you people didnt believe in GOD or the rapture.


I think you guys do believe the Rapture will happen,cause after all,why would you be asking someone who is going in the rapture to give away his stuff then?



My friend here is your chance to show the power of your belief through this action you can start to sway hearts.

You see us as poor lost souls. Let us see what Jesus says.

Matthew 19;21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.


Matthew 19:23-24
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


Your anger is not what Jesus would do is it? This is your chance to prove to us the power of your faith yet you will not do this simple thing.

Why? Do your things mean more to you then Jesus? Is your faith so small as you will not do this to help non-believers to see the light?

I believe this non-action of yours hurts Christ, you have turned your back on him like Judas, like Simon Peter you have denied him.


I will ask again.

Do this test for me and it may help the lost here to follow and be saved by you.

My e-mail address is mbertran@nycap.rr.com.

Please e-mail me and I will provided you with the contact information for my attorneys.

When you contact them they will ask you to sign over anything you may own, car, home etc also get your parents to do this and all your friends who believe the rapture is soon.

Give them all bank account numbers for everyone you know who believes as you do.

This will help start people believing you believe what you say.

My attorneys will hold all this information and papers signed by you all and these papers that you MUST sign if you really believe in the rapture and Christ will stipulate that I nor anyone can take position of the items or cash until you guys leave but I do from the signing of the paper own it all. ( run on sentence ..lol sorry)
As I have said I will one your car and house etc right now but will not take them from you until you leave.

I will use this money and things to help others, you know me and know I would do just that.

I will also be convinced if millions of Christians, well “real” Christians ( so that means you and 6 others I assume) are gone in the blink of an eye that you were right and use someone the money to convince others.

OK?

That is my deal it is all up to you now, what kind of Christian are you? Do you REALLY believe in the rapture and Christ?

The next move is yours, a “Lukewarm” Christian would not respond but you say you are a “REAL” Christian so I just KNOW you will… Please any excuses or non-response would mean you “Hate Jesus”

Does your 'stuff" mean more to you then the baby Jesus?

[calladus]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Terrorists do bad things and people in general do bad things,so why dont you stop them?
As a veteran, basically I used to do just that. I didn't bother to wait around for God.

[calladus]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth
LOL, lazy self, LOL.

Aren't the people who take prefabricated 'moral values' without questioning them really the lazy ones?

It doesn't bother me - I just consider it to be a form of projection.

[calladus]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
But why should I give you or any of the other Atheists here my stuff then?

I thought you people didnt believe in GOD or the rapture.

I think you guys do believe the Rapture will happen,cause after all,why would you be asking someone who is going in the rapture to give away his stuff then?

:confused: Is this guy finished with High School yet? :confused:

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
But why should I give you or any of the other Atheists here my stuff then?

Because, as you say, the rapture is going to happen and you seem to be so dead sure about it. When, or better if it happens you will not need any of your possessions because you are in heaven. When, or better if it happens the earth will be lying in ruins. Your possession will be destroyed and rendered worthless.

So what's the problem about you not giving away your possessions, which will be worthless soon anyway, to both, you and those left behind. You have nothing to loose, at least not when you are convinced that the rapture is going to happen. The only reason I can see for your reluctance to give away your possessions, which, remember, will be worthless soon if the rapture happens, is doubt. :eek: And disbelief! :eek: :eek:

Perhaps you are after all not that convinced that the rapture is going to happen?

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I thought you people didnt believe in GOD or the rapture.

Yes. And that is exacly the point. Pahansiri has asked for your possessions because he doesn't believe that the rapture is going to happen and that your possessions will be rendered worthless.

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I think you guys do believe the Rapture will happen,cause after all,why would you be asking someone who is going in the rapture to give away his stuff then?

Why would I ask somebody for their stuff? Hmm, let's see, because I think it is valuable?

Yes.

Because I think that the stuff will not loose it's value so soon?

Yes.

What would be a reason for said stuff to loose it's value?

The rapture!

Do I believe in the rapture?

No. And so, why not have some extra possessions…

But why would "someone who is going in the rapture" not be willing "to give away his stuff then?"

Again, the only reason I can possibly fathom is disbelief and doubt.



Oh, Billiefan2000 :rub:


Edited for gender matters

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth



Yes. And that is exacly the point. Pahansiri has asked for your possessions because she/he doesn't believe that the rapture is going to happen and that your possessions will be rendered worthless.




Pahansiri is of the penis club. :eek:

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by Pahansiri


Pahansiri is of the penis club. :eek:

Having a penis doesn't mean anything ;)

Alright I'll edit my post.

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


Having a penis doesn't mean anything ;)

Alright I'll edit my post.


LOL Lord Emsworth I was just busting on you, no need to edit your post...