Fat people in denial

[zakur]

Story (http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/150787-6117-010.html) Many Americans are in denial about their weight problems, according to an Associated Press poll, although more than half say they have been on diets at some point.

[...]

The AP poll found that six in 10 who qualify as overweight under government standards say they are at a healthy weight. Only a quarter of those who are obese consider themselves very overweight, according to the poll, which was conducted for The AP by Ipsos-Public Affairs.I work with such a person. She is obese - must be over 250 lbs - but insists that most of her bulk is "muscle." I have no doubt that she is a strong woman - it takes a lot of strength to carry around an ass the size of a car.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by zakur
Story (http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/150787-6117-010.html) I work with such a person. She is obese - must be over 250 lbs - but insists that most of her bulk is "muscle." I have no doubt that she is a strong woman - it takes a lot of strength to carry around an ass the size of a car.

"I'm not fat, I'm just big-boned!" - Eric Cartman

[Badger]

What's your point, Zakur?

I think that people see themselves as they want to see themselves, no matter what critical analysis indicates, and that goes for the obese as much as the anorexic.

So, your co-worker thinks she's hotter than she really is? I'd say that's her hangup.

Heh, at least I know I look like this

http://wrestle.ru/photo/other-2/pages/43.shtml

when I'd rather look like this

http://www.frankzane.com/images/frank1978.jpg

Reality can be a beeyatch. Most people need a crutch of some sort.

(Edited to add) The first picture is Tank Abbot, the second is Frank Zane.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Badger
What's your point, Zakur?

I think that people see themselves as they want to see themselves, no matter what critical analysis indicates, and that goes for the obese as much as the anorexic.

So, your co-worker thinks she's hotter than she really is? I'd say that's her hangup.

Heh, at least I know I look like this

http://wrestle.ru/photo/other-2/pages/43.shtml

when I'd rather look like this

http://www.frankzane.com/images/frank1978.jpg

Reality can be a beeyatch. Most people need a crutch of some sort.

(Edited to add) The first picture is Tank Abbot, the second is Frank Zane.

uhhhh.... do you really look like Tank?

[Badger]

Originally posted by tamiO


uhhhh.... do you really look like Tank?

5 inches shorter, 30 lbs lighter, less goatee, more hair.

Here's a pic from a few years ago:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14856&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

But the body's the pretty much the same.

(edited to add) BRACE YOURSELF BEFORE VIEWING LINK! Not for the faint of heart

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Badger


5 inches shorter, 30 lbs lighter, less goatee, more hair.

Here's a pic from a few years ago:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14856&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

But the body's the pretty much the same.

(edited to add) BRACE YOURSELF BEFORE VIEWING LINK! Not for the faint of heart

*ahem*...uhhh.....wow...

:::::::alt tabs as Mr. O walks past my computer :::::

[zakur]

Originally posted by Badger
What's your point, Zakur?Well, for one thing it is dangerous. As far as my coworker is concerned, I couldn't care less. But my mom is 40 lbs overweight, has high blood pressure, and is borderline diabetic. She doesn't think she is that overweight, and uses the old "I'm just big boned" canard. Her misconceptions will likely lead to a shorter life, and I want my kids to have as much time as possible with their grandmother.

And for another thing, it's expensive (http://www.detnews.com/2004/health/0402/03/health-42891.htm). People who don't realize they are overweight or obese don't do anything about it. Society ends up bearing the cost of obesity in the long run.

I was an obese child, but was never described as such. My mother always just said I was "husky" or "big boned." In high school, when I joined the wrestling team I had my % body fat determined at the local medical school (via hydrodensitometry weighing). I was 35% body fat - clinically obese. Having a clinician tell me to my face that I was obese expelled all my misconceptions about being merely "husky" or "big-boned." I dropped 30 lbs that first season, and vowed that I would never be fat again. I'm healthier and happier because of it.

[TAILGUNNER]

I weight trained and lead a very physical life as such in my prime so to speak i went in at 16 stone of good muscle but even then in clinical terms i was obese given my height of 5'10"(my ideal weight being 11 and a half stone:jaw:), since an accident i cannot lead the life i once did as such my weight is plus half a stone (not bad really i still swim) but i eat the right foods and still have semi decent muscle size but for the flak i get off my doctor you'd think i'd spent my life not moving and being fed lard

yes there are some real porkers who risk serious problems but on the whole any government figures should be taken with a pinch of salt(healthy low salt and not too much if you please)as i for one know that i make up a percentage of my countries national figures for obesity and i know its not justified

[Badger]

Originally posted by tamiO


*ahem*...uhhh.....wow...

:::::::alt tabs as Mr. O walks past my computer :::::

Yes. I'm sorry you had to see that.



Originally posted by Zakur


Well, for one thing it is dangerous. As far as my coworker is concerned, I couldn't care less. But my mom is 40 lbs overweight, has high blood pressure, and is borderline diabetic. She doesn't think she is that overweight, and uses the old "I'm just big boned" canard. Her misconceptions will likely lead to a shorter life, and I want my kids to have as much time as possible with their grandmother.

And for another thing, it's expensive. People who don't realize they are overweight or obese don't do anything about it. Society ends up bearing the cost of obesity in the long run.

I was an obese child, but was never described as such. My mother always just said I was "husky" or "big boned." In high school, when I joined the wrestling team I had my % body fat determined at the local medical school (via hydrodensitometry weighing). I was 35% body fat - clinically obese. Having a clinician tell me to my face that I was obese expelled all my misconceptions about being merely "husky" or "big-boned." I dropped 30 lbs that first season, and vowed that I would never be fat again. I'm healthier and happier because of it.

I see what you're saying.

However, it's more than just being fat. There are other things involved. People are obese for many reasons. Some don't see themselves as fat, some hide behind their fat, some protect themselves from the world with fat, some try to fill an inner void with food, which turns into fat......

In our society, it's easy to be fat, for any number of reasons, most of which are psychological. (oh, and the ole, "I eat more calories than I burn" thing too, naturally) The underlying issue needs to be addressed in order for the individual to effect change on themselves.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Badger


Yes. I'm sorry you had to see that.




Nonsense! You are hot!

[Badger]

Originally posted by tamiO


Nonsense! You are hot!

98.6F, last time I checked.

TamiO, thanks for the compliment!

[TAILGUNNER]

on a lighter note if enough fat people were in denial

it may well flood egypt

:D

[Phrost]

Originally posted by Badger

In our society, it's easy to be fat, for any number of reasons, most of which are psychological. (oh, and the ole, "I eat more calories than I burn" thing too, naturally) The underlying issue needs to be addressed in order for the individual to effect change on themselves.

The underlying issue is that people have been mislead to believe their obesity is acceptable because of a cultural trend that's taken the idea of avoiding offending anyone to a ridiculous level.

For chrissake, it's gotten so bad that every time a term becomes well known to accurately represent the status of an individual, the language is modified as if it actually changes their condition. For example: crippled->handicapped->"challenged".

Now they're trying to redesignate "morbidly obese" to something along the lines of "obesity level 2".

If you're fat, you're fat. If you're crippled, you're crippled. Changing the terminology does not change the condition.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Phrost



If you're fat, you're fat. If you're crippled, you're crippled. Changing the terminology does not change the condition.

It does something for me psychologically to consider myself challenged instead of crippled.

[Phrost]

Does that change your situation anywhere other than in your mind?

What's the difference between this and believing in a lucky rabbit's foot, or praying to the saints?

[Badger]

Originally posted by Phrost


The underlying issue is that people have been mislead to believe their obesity is acceptable because of a cultural trend that's taken the idea of avoiding offending anyone to a ridiculous level.

snip

I disagree.

We never evolved in the environment of readily available calories, with reduced need for physical activity.

There are a couple of societal developments that have been mentioned as contributing to obesity in western society.

The main one is centralization of services. You now take your car to the grocery store/bank/mall instead of walking to what used to be the corner store. This has generated all the drive through services available now, and corresponding reduced calorie expenditure.

Couple that with the increase in availability, cheapness, and calorie content of fast foods, and prepared foods, and you have large people everywhere.

In order to buck this trend, one must take it upon oneself to run counter to these changes.

[Phrost]

Originally posted by Badger


I disagree.

We never evolved in the environment of readily available calories, with reduced need for physical activity.

There are a couple of societal developments that have been mentioned as contributing to obesity in western society.

The main one is centralization of services. You now take your car to the grocery store/bank/mall instead of walking to what used to be the corner store. This has generated all the drive through services available now, and corresponding reduced calorie expenditure.

Couple that with the increase in availability, cheapness, and calorie content of fast foods, and prepared foods, and you have large people everywhere.

In order to buck this trend, one must take it upon oneself to run counter to these changes.

The first step in fixing a problem is identifying it. If obese people are mislead by society that their condition is acceptablee, then how is anything going to change for them?

Individual responsibility for their own choices is what will fix the problem. Providing people with excuses as to why they're not responsible for their actions just enables them to continue to make poor decisions.

[Badger]

Originally posted by Phrost


The first step in fixing a problem is identifying it. If obese people are mislead by society that their condition is acceptablee, then how is anything going to change for them?

Individual responsibility for their own choices is what will fix the problem. Providing people with excuses as to why they're not responsible for their actions just enables them to continue to make poor decisions.

I think your premise here is mistaken.

The prevalent attitude in western society is that thin is desirable. The media is flooded with examples of this. Look at the folk in movies, on TV, in magazines, and I'm talking both male and female.

As I said earlier in the thread:

"However, it's more than just being fat. There are other things involved. People are obese for many reasons. Some don't see themselves as fat, some hide behind their fat, some protect themselves from the world with fat, some try to fill an inner void with food, which turns into fat......"

The same could apply to anorexics, drug abusers, alcoholics, workaholics, etc. The outward sign indicates a deeper problem.

[Phrost]

Originally posted by Badger


I think your premise here is mistaken.

The prevalent attitude in western society is that thin is desirable. The media is flooded with examples of this. Look at the folk in movies, on TV, in magazines, and I'm talking both male and female.

As I said earlier in the thread:

"However, it's more than just being fat. There are other things involved. People are obese for many reasons. Some don't see themselves as fat, some hide behind their fat, some protect themselves from the world with fat, some try to fill an inner void with food, which turns into fat......"

The same could apply to anorexics, drug abusers, alcoholics, workaholics, etc. The outward sign indicates a deeper problem.

The pendulum swings both ways, obviously, as is the case in which the obese person feels she is 'mostly muscle'.

Should those of us who are healthy be forced to change for the sake of those who can't make good decisions? At what point do we stop being concerned about the needs of the few at the expense of the freedoms of the many?

It's irrational to think you can save everyone from themselves.

[Badger]

Originally posted by Phrost


The pendulum swings both ways, obviously, as is the case in which the obese person feels she is 'mostly muscle'.

Should those of us who are healthy be forced to change for the sake of those who can't make good decisions? At what point do we stop being concerned about the needs of the few at the expense of the freedoms of the many?

It's irrational to think you can save everyone from themselves.

Is someone forcing you to be unhealthy in some way?

I think we, as a society, stop being concerned about the needs of the few when the expense to the many becomes unacceptable to the many.

Yes, it's irrational to think a person can save everyone from themselves.

I see you teach martial arts. And you do that one student at a time, one class at a time, right? It is my opinion that a person doesn't have to try to change the world. They should just try to change their little part of it.

[Phrost]

Actually I don't teach. I just train for no holds barred (MMA) competition.

And I see what you're saying now. I'd gotten from your previous posts that we need to collectively address the reasons why crappy food is available to people to make them fat.

I apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Back on topic, Zakur has a point about genuinely obese people in denial.

The problem falls into the catagory of the legal definition of obese and overweight.

If you use the BMI index used by the CDC, then Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Harrison Ford and Bruce Willis (http://mix96tulsa.com/mikeandmandy/081502bmiobesepeople.html) are all very much overweight. Tom Cruise and Russel Crowe (http://www.consumerfreedom.com/game_fatchart.cfm) are considered morbidly obese.

Is iit any wonder why some of the people the CDC considers "obese" beliieve they are at a healthy weight?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
Is iit any wonder why some of the people the CDC considers "obese" beliieve they are at a healthy weight?


The CDC says I am obese (http://controls.ae.gatech.edu/people/mjohnson/images/Pics/Me/ivegotmail.jpg).

I think I could stand to lose a few pounds, I do not consider myself to be,'very overweight'.

MattJ (in denial)

[MLynn]

Everyone has a story. My weight had crept up over the past 5 years, so that by last year I was 20lbs overweight. Not much by a lot of standards, but enough for me to look matronly and feel like crap. I finally had to get out of my denial when I saw a photo taken of me next to a showgirl in Vegas - boy talk about A vs. B! Well, I woke up and have lost 17 of the 20. I'm still trying, but the last few pounds are just really hard to deal with. The good news is that I don't look as matronly and I don't look like a sausage. :D
P.S. I like big, beefy guys.

[subgenius]

I weigh more than I ever have in my life ( 6' 175#, but will soon be 54 so that happens)...was always skinny.
I'm shooting for 300#. Always wanted to be huge, "so completely huge". (Not really)
There must be an opposite of anorexia.
When Calista Flockhart wrote to People Magazine after an article about her and anorexia, and said "I don't think I'm too thin" several doctors wrote in to say that quote proved it.
There are tests that show those with eating disorders will pick out very unrealistic visual depictions of their body shape.
We literally see things as we wish to see them.
Like most other things right in front of us, we cannot see ourselves (especially as others see us).

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by TAILGUNNER
I weight trained and lead a very physical life as such in my prime so to speak i went in at 16 stone of good muscle but even then in clinical terms i was obese given my height of 5'10"(my ideal weight being 11 and a half stone:jaw:), since an accident i cannot lead the life i once did as such my weight is plus half a stone (not bad really i still swim) but i eat the right foods and still have semi decent muscle size but for the flak i get off my doctor you'd think i'd spent my life not moving and being fed lard
Ahh yes, denial. :p
Originally posted by TAILGUNNER
yes there are some real porkers who risk serious problems but on the whole any government figures should be taken with a pinch of salt(healthy low salt and not too much if you please)as i for one know that i make up a percentage of my countries national figures for obesity and i know its not justified
I think the government statistics are fairly reliable. In individual cases body fat percentage is clearly a more reliable indicator of obesity but BMI works fine for statistics. While not everyone with a BMI above 25 is overweight not everyone with one bellow has a healthy weight. I weight 60 kilos and I'm 1.77 meters tall, which places me somewhat bellow normal weight, but if I gained 18 kilos of fat I would still be within the allowed range. I'd clearly be to fat though. You might not be fat despite being in the statistics, but some people are to fat without being in the statistics. It averages out.

[Cain]

X wrote:
The underlying issue is that people have been mislead to believe their obesity is acceptable because of a cultural trend that's taken the idea of avoiding offending anyone to a ridiculous level.

Oh, bah. People are self-deluded when it comes to everything from their ability to handle an automobile to intelligence. Nobody *wants* to believe they're repulsively obese (just as, ahem, many of the more vocal participants here insist they're not morons). I'm certain more than a handful of people here who have read the latest popular evolutionary psychology are ready to expound without a moment's notice on the survival and reproductive advantages borne out of an optimistic self-image.

Re: the article on celebrities. I believe that first appeared in _The Wall Street Journal_ and it's been criticized many times over. The problem is that they guessed the height and weight for many of these celebrities. Brad Pitt, for instance, is not 203 pounds (this appeared pre-TROY). I recall that his publicist laughed at the idea, and said he isn't even six feet tall (apparently 5'11"). Representatives for others on the list laughed and made similar comments. C'mon, Bruce Willis as 211 pounds?

Besides, unless your figure shares faint similarities with a Stallone and you're 5'9" and only, say, 200 pounds, then it's a safe bet that you're overweight and the BMI applies.

What was the observation of one comedian? Guys do six sit-ups and they think they're ready to get in a hot-tub with Cindy Crawford.

[Badger]

I know I'm fat. I could do with 40-50 lbs less of me hanging around, and I know my muscle mass wouldn't suffer any for that loss.

[Doghouse Reilly]

And Schwarzenegger 257 pounds?? Give me a break, they must not have done any research whatsoever....in his prime, Schwarzenegger competed at 235 pounds, after realizing that 250 was carrying far too much fat on his frame and obscuring muscle definition....nowdays he must carry 195-215 tops, considering how much smaller he is than when he was a professional bodybuilder.
And Stallone at 5 foot 9 inches and 228 pounds was indeed obese...anyone see copland? He was fat! And no way is Keanu Reeves 211. He's shorter than Arnold yet heavier? I don't think so.
This isn't intended to derail the thread into a discussion of celebrities, but to further support what was already pointed out, that these celebrity stats appear to be seriously flawed, calling into question their entire contention.
They're trying to call into question the government stats, by using bogus stats themselves?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Phrost
The underlying issue is that people have been mislead to believe their obesity is acceptable because of a cultural trend that's taken the idea of avoiding offending anyone to a ridiculous level. Acceptable? Oh, well, let's shame them then. Let them know being fat is simply not acceptable. What the hell are you talking about?

Perhaps I should be shuned untill I drop a couple hundred pounds?

If you're fat, you're fat. If you're crippled, you're crippled. Changing the terminology does not change the condition. Damn straight! I am fat. I am morbidly obese. I sincerly agree with you as to political correctness.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
Back on topic, Zakur has a point about genuinely obese people in denial. I think you are talking about a coping mechanism. As one increases in girth the number of difficulties and indignities mount. It becomes impossible to deny the reality of the fact that you are fat. The diet industry is a multi billion dollar industry and is a true growth one simply because people can't escape that their pant size get's larger every year. Bones don't grow and contrary to popular belief people are not really that stupid. Yes, we are in denial when our ego or self esteem is on the line at times. But in the end we really do know we are fat.

This thing about denial is truly a non starter. Still, if that is what helps those who are not fat deal with the seemingly irrational abuse of ones body without understanding the scientific truth then that is fine. We can all gather around the fire and tell ghost stories and comfort ourselves without accepting the facts.

Most people who are fat have gone on diets, made changes in lifestyle, changes in heating habbits, seen psychatrists, psychologists, hypnotists, taken drugs, etc and have achieved their goal weight just to gain it all back. More than 95% of all people who are obese and lose any significant amount of weight loss will gain it all back. There is a reason for that number and it is not denial.

RandFan

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by zakur
Story (http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/150787-6117-010.html)I have no doubt that she is a strong woman - it takes a lot of strength to carry around an ass the size of a car. Yes, there are a lot of fat people who believe that they are not fat.

And there are a lot of ********** who think that their making fun of fat people is cute.

[Nasarius]

Originally posted by RSLancastr
And there are a lot of ********** who think that their making fun of fat people is cute.

Seconded. I almost feel guilty...I'm 6'3" and I've never weighed more than about 165 lbs. I can eat really horribly, but I never gain weight. It's great, until I have a heart attack :halo:

[Phrost]

I just want to clarify my position so that I don't have it mischaractereized by the PClibmongers amongst us.

I am not advocating sidewalk check points for fat people, or grown adults running around pointing and saying "fatty fatty 2x4".

I am, however, lashing out against the concept of hypercourtesy which strives to limit free expression and consequently hinders some from having a 'peer-reviewed' perspective of their lifestyle.

It's like the incident in which obese people protest having to pay for two airplane tickets despite the reality of them taking up two seats. If they are lead to believe there is nothing wrong with their condition, then they will demand rights and privelages associated with it (such as requiring theaters and other such venues to install wider seating and other asinine accomodations).

I am well aware that some people have serious problems with their thyroids that can lead to obesity. I am aware that some are (dare I say) challenged by poor genetics.

But the responsibility falls on the individual, not society. If a person does not take responsibility for their problems, they should not expect society to do so in the form of special medical attention, etc.

Sometimes you get dealt a crappy hand in life. I wish I wasn't 5'10. I'd much rather be 6'3". But I do the best with what I've got and don't expect to be picked first for a basketball team, unless they're looking for someone specifically to rough up another player and foul out. ;)

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Phrost
I just want to clarify my position so that I don't have it mischaractereized by the PClibmongers amongst us.

I am not advocating sidewalk check points for fat people, or grown adults running around pointing and saying "fatty fatty 2x4".

I am, however, lashing out against the concept of hypercourtesy which strives to limit free expression and consequently hinders some from having a 'peer-reviewed' perspective of their lifestyle.

It's like the incident in which obese people protest having to pay for two airplane tickets despite the reality of them taking up two seats. If they are lead to believe there is nothing wrong with their condition, then they will demand rights and privelages associated with it (such as requiring theaters and other such venues to install wider seating and other asinine accomodations).

I am well aware that some people have serious problems with their thyroids that can lead to obesity. I am aware that some are (dare I say) challenged by poor genetics.

But the responsibility falls on the individual, not society. If a person does not take responsibility for their problems, they should not expect society to do so in the form of special medical attention, etc.

Sometimes you get dealt a crappy hand in life. I wish I wasn't 5'10. I'd much rather be 6'3". But I do the best with what I've got and don't expect to be picked first for a basketball team, unless they're looking for someone specifically to rough up another player and foul out. ;) I can find nothing that I personally disagree with in this post.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Phrost
Does that change your situation anywhere other than in your mind?

What's the difference between this and believing in a lucky rabbit's foot, or praying to the saints?

Sorry, didn't ever get back to answering this one.

To be honest I don't think in terms of labels like that. I just deal with my condition with the best possible attitude I can muster.

I just like the feeling of the word challenged instead of crippled. Maybe it would have more to do with how I want people to perceive me. I am not in a wheelchair, yet and maybe I won't ever be. I know that a positive attitude and lack of stress are two of my best weapons to avoid going that far downhill.

Looks like I am starting to step into that topic that Mercutio wanted to discuss in the Peter vs. Randi thread. For some reason I am hesitant to make this a new topic. I think it's because it might change people's perception's of me. Let's face it, people feel free to give me ***** on the JREF because I appear to be so strong. If people knew I was disabled I wouldn't want them to back down because they feel sorry for me.

My apologies for taking this so far off track. You can get back to discussing fat people. :D

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Phrost


But the responsibility falls on the individual, not society. If a person does not take responsibility for their problems, they should not expect society to do so in the form of special medical attention, etc.

I have a dear friend that has lost 110 pounds so far and has another 130 to go to reach her goal weight of 140. If you do the math, you realise she is a large lady.

She is painfully aware that she is fat. She became motivated when her diablity went through and it wasn't for her arthritis, scoliosis or fibromyalgia. It was for Morbid Obesity. Those two words literally scared her into changing her eating habits.

I don't think you can understand the deep emotional pain of being a fat woman in a world full of tummy shirts and hip huggers. I am 170 pounds and 5'7". I gained my weight when I became physically challenged. :) I have lost 40 pounds from my record high and let me tell you I have shed many tears over being so fat and ugly.

I am an artist so I appreciate good lines. I used to weigh a consistent 120-130 pounds. I no longer have good lines.

I agree totally about taking responsibility. I have managed to lose my weight by lowering my carb intake. I am not able to exercise very often, but on those good days I do.

I think it's easier for men. I like my men with plenty to hold on to. He should at least be bigger than me for it to feel right. Not huge, but 20 or 30 extra pounds on a muscular man just doesn't seem to look as bad as 20-30 pounds extra on a woman. At least to me and my artistic eye.

[Earthborn]

Originally posted by Phrost
If they are lead to believe there is nothing wrong with their condition, then they will demand rights and privelages associated with it (such as requiring theaters and other such venues to install wider seating and other asinine accomodations).I really don't see why society should treat morbid obesity any different than other disabilities. Why make people's lives any more difficult than it probably already is?But the responsibility falls on the individual, not society.I really don't understand this ideology that makes everyone fully responsible for their entire lives. Aren't we all on this planet to help eachother out a bit?

[LucyR]

Originally posted by Earthborn
I really don't see why society should treat morbid obesity any different than other disabilities.

The problem is, I think, that obesity, unlike other disabilities, is often perceived to be something the individual could control if he/she wasn't so "lazy, self-indulgent etc".

[Badger]

Originally posted by tamiO


snip

I think it's easier for men. I like my men with plenty to hold on to. He should at least be bigger than me for it to feel right. Not huge, but 20 or 30 extra pounds on a muscular man just doesn't seem to look as bad as 20-30 pounds extra on a woman. At least to me and my artistic eye.

Nope, it's not easier for men. We just pretend it doesn't matter better.

[MLynn]

Originally posted by tamiO

I agree totally about taking responsibility. I have managed to lose my weight by lowering my carb intake. I am not able to exercise very often, but on those good days I do.

tamiO, I like your story - don't give up. I've lost some of my weight by higher protein, lower carb; but, I don't exercise either (at the moment). I sit at a computer at work for 3-7 hours a day. We all have some kind of stress in our lives, I know I do, and boy, do I love comfort food. It's hard to have control in a high-stress culture that isn't rationing food...

[LucyR]

Originally posted by Badger


Nope, it's not easier for men. We just pretend it doesn't matter better.

I think it's probably more difficult for women. Society still views a woman's appearance as having higher priority in her list of qualities than in the corresponding case of a man.

[Badger]

Originally posted by LucyR


I think it's probably more difficult for women. Society still views a woman's appearance as having higher priority in her list of qualities than in the corresponding case of a man.

I submit that being compared to Fabio, Mel Gibson, Tom Selleck, Brad Pitt, Leonardo Di Capricio, etc. feels the same to a guy as being compared to any of the "hot" female celebrities does to a gal.

[LucyR]

Originally posted by Badger


I submit that being compared to Fabio, Mel Gibson, Tom Selleck, Brad Pitt, Leonardo Di Capricio, etc. feels the same to a guy as being compared to any of the "hot" female celebrities does to a gal.

I submit that you have serious self-esteem issues. To me, those people are nonentities, and being compared with them is a matter of supreme indifference to me. I get by on my almost boundless charm and wit.

[Badger]

Originally posted by LucyR


I submit that you have serious self-esteem issues. To me, those people are nonentities, and being compared with them is a matter of supreme indifference to me. I get by on my almost boundless charm and wit.

That may be true, but I pretend not to care.

And anyone who don't like it, well FORK em! They don't know nothin anyway.;)

[Nasarius]

Originally posted by Badger

I submit that being compared to Fabio

Hey, at least you haven't been hit in the face by a goose while riding a rollercoaster :)

[zultr]

Originally posted by Earthborn
I really don't see why society should treat morbid obesity any different than other disabilities. Why make people's lives any more difficult than it probably already is?

I don't see why society should treat people who eat too much the same as they treat people born without limbs or any other disability that isn't primarily caused by their own actions, i.e., eating too much. This thread is about denial - this nation has perfected it. See, we're not obese because we're lazy and eat crappy food, we're obese because we're "disabled." Or because our metabolisms are too slow. Or because our genes predispose us to obesity. Horsesh!t. When I leave this country, the only fat people I see are Americans on vacation. Since we are a nation of immigrants, primarily of European and African descent, how is it that we've evolved some kind of fat genes that bypassed our European and African breathren? We haven't. We just eat more than they do.

For the record, I'm 6'0" with 15% body fat and have been within 10 pounds of my usual weight for the last 15 years. However, I now weigh 182, the heaviest in my life. Have I gained the last 8 pounds due to a disability? Hardly. How did I gain the weight? I ate too much and exercised too little. How will I lose it? By exercising more and eating less. I was born with hypohidrotic ectodermal dysplasia (http://www.icomm.ca/geneinfo/hed.htm). While I'm losing weight, can I also decide that I'd like to start sweating? No, because my extra weight is due to my eating too much while my inability to sweat is due to a congenital birth defect. In no way am I disparaging those who have legitimate health issues because of obesity caused by medical conditions; I'm only targeting those who refuse to change their lifestyles and blame it on circumstances beyond their control.

Edited to add:
Obesity is similar to substance abuse and I don't deny that many people have problems and may need treatment. However, I'm not comfortable granting the same "disease" or "disability" status to a group that includes those with cerebral palsy or cancer, as well as those who can resolve their conditions with behavior modification.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by zultr
I don't see why society should treat people who eat too much the same as they treat people born without limbs or any other disability that isn't primarily caused by their own actions, i.e., eating too much. This thread is about denial - this nation has perfected it. See, we're not obese because we're lazy and eat crappy food, we're obese because we're "disabled." Or because our metabolisms are too slow. Or because our genes predispose us to obesity. Horsesh!t. When I leave this country, the only fat people I see are Americans on vacation. Since we are a nation of immigrants, primarily of European and African descent, how is it that we've evolved some kind of fat genes that bypassed our European and African breathren? We haven't. We just eat more than they do.

For the record, I'm 6'0" with 15% body fat and have been within 10 pounds of my usual weight for the last 15 years. However, I now weigh 182, the heaviest in my life. Have I gained the last 8 pounds due to a disability? Hardly. How did I gain the weight? I ate too much and exercised too little. How will I lose it? By exercising more and eating less. I was born with hypohidrotic ectodermal dysplasia (http://www.icomm.ca/geneinfo/hed.htm). While I'm losing weight, can I also decide that I'd like to start sweating? No, because my extra weight is due to my eating too much while my inability to sweat is due to a congenital birth defect. In no way am I disparaging those who have legitimate health issues because of obesity caused by medical conditions; I'm only targeting those who refuse to change their lifestyles and blame it on circumstances beyond their control. I don't really have too much problem with your post. Humans are genetically predisposed to eat enough calories to allow them to hunt and kill food. Sitting ones ass in a computer doesn't mesh with that. The fact that Americans are fat and others are not might have to do with the abundance of food and ability for so many to make money without physical exercise.

I don't want to be compared with people who are handicapped. I certainly don't see myself that way. I like them don't want sympathy or pity. However I would like you to understand the science and realize that 95% of all people who are obese and lose a significant amount of weight will put it all back on.

Almost ALL people who are overweight WILL change their lifestyle and not blame it on circumstances but understand that they have a problem. You can pretend that there is no science to support this. You can pretend that the 95% figure is meaningless but it is not. For what it is worth I have lost more than 100 pounds. I can link specific and significant increases in my own weight to any behavior or activity associated with losing weight.

RandFan

[zultr]

Originally posted by RandFan
You can pretend that there is no science to support this. You can pretend that the 95% figure is meaningless but it is not. RandFan

I don't believe I was "pretending" anything. We are creatures of habit and routine. I'm willing to bet that 95% of any habitual behavior returns to the previous norm after attempting to change, so it wouldn't surpise me in the least if almost all gained their weight back. The problem, as I see it, is that people have bought into the commercial concept of "going on a diet" There's no such thing as going on a diet; if you announce that you're going on a diet, you're implicitly admitting that you'll be going off of it before too long. To lose weight and keep it off, you don't go on a diet, you change your diet, and your lifestyle - permanently.

I'd also add some stats about how much the diet industry rakes in and the obvious synergy between junk food peddlers and the weight loss industry, but I'm too lazy to look them up. The problem is, if people lost weight and kept it off, then the industry wouldn't be selling too many books, and not many people would buy them if they read that they have to change their lives instead of popping a super carb burner pill and exercising 10 minutes a week.

[Nasarius]

You can pompously speculate all you want zultr, or you can actually look at the research.

Warning: openly biased link.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-poorfat.htm

Dr. Martin Seligman, an authority on obesity, writes: "Nineteen out of twenty studies show that obese people consume no more calories each day than non-obese people. In one remarkable experiment, a group of very obese people dieted down to only 60 percent overweight and stayed there. They needed one hundred fewer calories a day to stay at 60 percent overweight than normal people needed to stay at a normal weight." (2)

[RandFan]

Originally posted by zultr
I don't believe I was "pretending" anything. We are creatures of habit and routine. I'm willing to bet that 95% of any habitual behavior returns to the previous norm after attempting to change, so it wouldn't surpise me in the least if almost all gained their weight back. There is a problem with your thinking. 95% of people who quit smoking don't start again.

The problem, as I see it, is that people have bought into the commercial concept of "going on a diet" There's no such thing as going on a diet; if you announce that you're going on a diet, you're implicitly admitting that you'll be going off of it before too long. To lose weight and keep it off, you don't go on a diet, you change your diet, and your lifestyle - permanently. Been there done that. Yeah, if only we all knew that. I love how people spout wisdom with no evidence to support their nonsense.

I'd also add some stats about how much the diet industry rakes in and the obvious synergy between junk food peddlers and the weight loss industry, but I'm too lazy to look them up. The problem is, if people lost weight and kept it off, then the industry wouldn't be selling too many books, and not many people would buy them if they read that they have to change their lives instead of popping a super carb burner pill and exercising 10 minutes a week. :D Obesity is now a conspiracy.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by zultr
I'm willing to bet that 95% of any habitual behavior returns to the previous norm after attempting to change, so it wouldn't surpise me in the least if almost all gained their weight back.No, I'll dig up the stats but absolutely not.

BTW,

The Truth About Obesity (http://www.techcentralstation.com/071403A.html)

The science does not agree with you but what the hell does science know?

[LucyR]

RandFan,

Do you believe that there is any connection between being fat and eating too much?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by LucyR
RandFan,

Do you believe that there is any connection between being fat and eating too much? Thanks for the question.

When I was young I wrestled in high school. I weighed 145 lbs but like everyone else I went down a weight class. I was very careful what I ate and exercised allot. I had very little body fat.

After high school I when ever I put on a few pounds I would simply watch what I ate and go to the gym more often.

Over the years my weight got higher and higher. I found that "changing lifestyles" made me nervous and miserable to be with. I hated life and thought only of changing my lifestyle. I was abusive and mean but I was thin. After I reached my goal weight I would seek to do that which made me feel normal which was to revert back to my old lifestyle.

I know what it takes to lose weight. My picture ran in the newspaper as a before and after picture when I lost the most weight in my life. The problem is the psychology and physiology. The inability to focus and perform daily tasks.

Long answer to a short question, yes, so what?

I belive I can save millions of dollars by working every waking minute of my life and never spending any money except that which is required to live. Why? What is the point if your life sucks?

[zultr]

Originally posted by Nasarius
You can pompously speculate all you want zultr, or you can actually look at the research.

"Nineteen out of twenty studies show that obese people consume no more calories each day than non-obese people. In one remarkable experiment, a group of very obese people dieted down to only 60 percent overweight and stayed there. They needed one hundred fewer calories a day to stay at 60 percent overweight than normal people needed to stay at a normal weight."



I don’t dispute any of that. My point from above is that lifestyle choices affecting metabolism has the greatest impact on weight gain and loss. If your metabolism is trained to horde calories, you can actually eat less and still be overweight. So what is your point? That some genetic plague is sweeping the nation causing us to be fat? Can you find a study showing why Americans are obese and the rest of the world isn’t? What has caused the gene pool in this nation of immigrants to suddenly mutate and cause such a high percentage of obese persons? I’m looking forward to your next link.

Originally posted by RandFan
There is a problem with your thinking. 95% of people who quit smoking don't start again.


40% of those having their voice box removed (laryngectomy) continued to smoke afterwards.

Almost 50% of those surviving surgery for lung cancer start smoking again.

Relapse rates are about the same as relapse rates for heroin and alcohol: about 60% of quitters relapse in 3 months, and 75% in 6 months.

According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse, nearly 35 million Americans attempt to stop smoking every year; less than seven percent are successful in permanently kicking the habit.

Congratulations. You were right. It’s only 93%. Is that the kind of “spouting wisdom with no evidence to support their nonsense” you were talking about? I will also point out that it is now illegal in many states to smoke at work or any public places, but you can eat till your heart’s content.


Originally posted by RandFan
Obesity is now a conspiracy.

The diet industry pulls in $40 million per year. Source (http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/advice/20040113a1.asp)

How many diets are there? How many work? As far as I can tell, there’s only one solution, short of surgery: lifestyle modification. Until people decide to do it, there will be plenty of money to be made selling diets and no one will care if they work except the people going on them.

Originally posted by RandFan
No, I'll dig up the stats but absolutely not.

BTW,

The Truth About Obesity

The science does not agree with you but what the hell does science know?


Again, there is nothing there I disagree with. I simply don’t think that people who have trained their bodies via their lifestyles to horde calories qualify as disabled or “diseased.” Can anyone respond to my comments about whether being obese is a “disease” or “disability” on a par with birth defects, amputations, cancer, or other non-lifestyle conditions?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by zultr
The diet industry pulls in $40 million per year. Source (http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/advice/20040113a1.asp)

How many diets are there? How many work? As far as I can tell, there’s only one solution, short of surgery: lifestyle modification. Until people decide to do it, there will be plenty of money to be made selling diets and no one will care if they work except the people going on them. It by no means prove a conspiracy. And if anyone has a workable solution then they will never have to work another day in their life.

[Earthborn]

That some genetic plague is sweeping the nation causing us to be fat?Interestingly, there is at least one virus strongly suspected to cause some forms of obesity:
Science Central on the 'Fat Virus' (http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?language=english&type=24119&article_id=218391190&cat=1_1)
BBC: Can a virus make you fat? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/854584.stm)

More reasonable information on the AD36 Virus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AD-36) and obesity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity)

[Renfield]

Ultimately, it all comes down to what you decide to put in your mouth. It really is that simple. Some people do have faster metabolisms then others, but that's not what's really behind america's obesity issues. As a nation, I doubt we are any more predisposed to getting fat as the people of any other country. It has everything to do with diet and lifestyle.

A couple of generations ago, you didn't see near the level of obesity in children that you see today. There's a reason for that, and its not genetic or biological.

[Badger]

Originally posted by Renfield
Ultimately, it all comes down to what you decide to put in your mouth. It really is that simple. Some people do have faster metabolisms then others, but that's not what's really behind america's obesity issues. As a nation, I doubt we are any more predisposed to getting fat as the people of any other country. It has everything to do with diet and lifestyle.

A couple of generations ago, you didn't see near the level of obesity in children that you see today. There's a reason for that, and its not genetic or biological.

Kids nowadays got REAL strong thumbs, though!;)

[zultr]

Originally posted by RandFan
It by no means prove a conspiracy. And if anyone has a workable solution then they will never have to work another day in their life.

I never tried to prove a conspiracy. In fact, I never called it a conspiracy. You did. I'm simply pointing out that our culture has evolved to the point where we are conditioned to make unhealthy choices.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by zultr
I never tried to prove a conspiracy. In fact, I never called it a conspiracy. You did. I'm simply pointing out that our culture has evolved to the point where we are conditioned to make unhealthy choices. Hmmmm......

I'd also add some stats about how much the diet industry rakes in and the obvious synergy between junk food peddlers and the weight loss industry, but I'm too lazy to look them up. The problem is, if people lost weight and kept it off, then the industry wouldn't be selling too many books, and not many people would buy them if they read that they have to change their lives instead of popping a super carb burner pill and exercising 10 minutes a week. There seems to be some inference to this argument. Why discuss the diet industry and "synergy" with junk food peddlers?

Could you clarify?

[zultr]

Originally posted by Badger


Kids nowadays got REAL strong thumbs, though!;)

That's part of the problem. I'm not that old (not yet 40). When I was a kid, we had one car for a family of 7. I took the bus or walked a lot. Now, every member of my family, all of their spouses and all of their children of age own cars. If you wanted to change the channel, you had to actually get up and do it (I watched a lot of crappy tv for no other reason than I didn't want to get up). Our car windows cranked down. Restaurant portions seemed to be about 1/2 of what they are today, and lots of restaurants were locally owned, not chains that served fast, fatty food in huge portions. I played every day on my bike or in a park - those parks are vacant today (I'm sure video games have something to do with that).

When I go to Europe, hardly anyone drives in the major cities - they walk, bike, or take public transportation, which requires some level of activity. Meal portions are tiny. An order of ice cream consists of a single scoop with nothing on it. Soda is not ubiquitous. Again, the only overweight people I see are Americans on vacation.

When I was younger, I ate more calories than I do now, but now I sit at a desk and lead a far more sedentary lifestyle and I weigh a lot more. Bodies are very efficient at expending energy - too efficient for the lives we've built for ourselves.

[zultr]

Originally posted by RandFan
Hmmmm......

There seems to be some inference to this argument. Why discuss the diet industry and "synergy" with junk food peddlers?

Could you clarify?

Conspiracy: 1) An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act. 2) An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.

Synergy: 1) The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects. 2) Cooperative interaction among groups, especially among the acquired subsidiaries or merged parts of a corporation, that creates an enhanced combined effect.

I meant synergy in the context of mutually beneficial outcomes that are not necessarily the result of an explicit agreement. Perhaps the second definition for synergy is to blame for the confusion. I certainly don’t think that the food and diet industries have joined together to form an evil cabal bent on fattening the nation. I do think that the consequences of how our society works provide a disincentive for either industry to change what they are currently doing – because they’re making lots of money at it.

By the way, can you come up with another example of habitual behavior that has a relapse rate of lower than 93%?

[zultr]

Coincidentally, the first place on the web I went to after leaving here had this (http://www.boston.com/dailynews/152/nation/Driving_longer_means_larger_wa:.shtml) on the topic.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by zultr
Conspiracy: 1) An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act. 2) An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action. You forgot,

4.) A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.

By the way, can you come up with another example of habitual behavior that has a relapse rate of lower than 93%? Don't know. I could very well be wrong. Is tobacco or drugs abuse only behavior related? If there is a physiological component to drug abuse and addiction to tobacco then don't the similar statistics to weight loss suggest that obesity is much more than simply habit and behavior?

Is it easier for an individual to quit smoking marijuana or lose 100 pounds?

Is it easier to give up television or lose 100 pounds?

Is it easier to give up fishing or lose 100 pounds?

[RandFan]

BTW, tobacco executives testified that their products were not addictive. IIRC, they said that smoking is simply a matter of habit and quitting is just a matter of will power. Do you agree?

[Tmy]

People quit all the time with nothing more than willpower.

You be amazed how life long smokers are able to quit cold turkey when there doctor tells them they have cancer.

[wildflower1]

When I go to Europe, hardly anyone drives in the major cities - they walk, bike, or take public transportation, which requires some level of activity.
Again, the only overweight people I see are Americans on vacation.
When I've traveled to countries in Europe, I've noticed far fewer accommodations for disabled people (that is, things like curb cuts or elevators/escalators providing access to underground transportation). Could this be part of the reason that we see far fewer overweight or disabled people on the streets there? Are there fewer accommodations because fewer people need them? Or could it be that overweight/disabled natives have given up on public mobility due to lack of such accomodations, and that, therefore, the only such people out and about are the hapless American tourists?

[Tmy]

I find that alot of foerigners are smaller period. Not a fat thing, they are just tinyer. I think ther rest of the world tends to be malnorished.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Tmy
People quit all the time with nothing more than willpower.

You be amazed how life long smokers are able to quit cold turkey when there doctor tells them they have cancer. Some but not all. Even with death staring them in the face many still are unable to quit. Ever see the folks who have thier laranx removed and they draw the smoke in through the hole in their throat?

[zultr]

Originally posted by RandFan
Is it easier for an individual to quit smoking marijuana or lose 100 pounds?

Is it easier to give up television or lose 100 pounds?

Is it easier to give up fishing or lose 100 pounds?

I don't know. I think it depends a lot on the individual. For example, it would be a lot easier for me to quit eating asparagus than napping after work.

Originally posted by RandFan
BTW, tobacco executives testified that their products were not addictive. IIRC, they said that smoking is simply a matter of habit and quitting is just a matter of will power. Do you agree?

I'm certainly no expert on addiction, but I do know that the subject is becoming increasingly contentious. I think it is very difficult to decide whether something is "physically" addictive rather than "psychologically" addictive. If you have a strong enough emotional tie to something, it doesn't really matter about the substance. Personally, I went through quite a few cans of Skoal. As much as I liked the nicotine buzz, I was addicted to the routine (usually studying late at night or after a couple of drinks). It took years to completely quit, with many relapses coming long after any physical need could have been present (usually if I ended up working late at night or having a drink). I've scoured my trash cans for old lumps of tobacco and actually bummed cigarettes from people to break them open and shove the tobacco under my lip. Was I addicted? I don't know. I do know that when I quit and it stuck, it was because I decided, after pretending a few times, that I no longer wanted to do it.

[Nasarius]

Originally posted by zultr
I think it is very difficult to decide whether something is "physically" addictive rather than "psychologically" addictive.

*sigh*
No, no it's not. Physical addiction involves physical withdrawal symptoms. You don't start sweating and shaking or getting headaches if you stop watching TV.

[zultr]

Originally posted by wildflower1


When I've traveled to countries in Europe, I've noticed far fewer accommodations for disabled people (that is, things like curb cuts or elevators/escalators providing access to underground transportation)... Or could it be that overweight/disabled natives have given up on public mobility due to lack of such accomodations, and that, therefore, the only such people out and about are the hapless American tourists?

Lack of accommodations may be why you don't see as many of the blind or those in wheelchairs. However, if you see fat Americans getting around, then the lack of accommodations shouldn't have too much impact on those who need to get around there everyday.

Originally posted by Tmy
I find that alot of foerigners are smaller period. Not a fat thing, they are just tinyer. I think ther rest of the world tends to be malnorished.

Europeans are malnourished? I mean maybe in 1946, but now? My nephew in Italy is huge.

[zultr]

Originally posted by Nasarius


*sigh*
No, no it's not. Physical addiction involves physical withdrawal symptoms. You don't start sweating and shaking or getting headaches if you stop watching TV.

You're right. But why do so many relapse after the physical effects of the substance have already been purged from their body? What about the endorphins produced when eating comfort food? Does that make a twinkie physically addictive? Couldn't you have such an emotional tie to watching tv that you may in fact exhibit symptoms similar to what you described?

Edited for clarity.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by zultr
I don't know. I think it depends a lot on the individual. For example, it would be a lot easier for me to quit eating asparagus than napping after work.

I'm certainly no expert on addiction, but I do know that the subject is becoming increasingly contentious. I think it is very difficult to decide whether something is "physically" addictive rather than "psychologically" addictive. If you have a strong enough emotional tie to something, it doesn't really matter about the substance. Personally, I went through quite a few cans of Skoal. As much as I liked the nicotine buzz, I was addicted to the routine (usually studying late at night or after a couple of drinks). It took years to completely quit, with many relapses coming long after any physical need could have been present (usually if I ended up working late at night or having a drink). I've scoured my trash cans for old lumps of tobacco and actually bummed cigarettes from people to break them open and shove the tobacco under my lip. Was I addicted? I don't know. I do know that when I quit and it stuck, it was because I decided, after pretending a few times, that I no longer wanted to do it. It doesn't really answer the question. What are the statistics for people quiting heroin, smoking, any behavior? If giving up golfing on saturdays is statistically easier than smoking then can't we come to a conclusion as to the merits of will power versus phisological addiction?

Is your experience the same as everyones? Isn't your experience anecdotal? Isn't it rational to accept science over anecdotal evidence? Do you have any evidence that shows that obesity is no different than any other "habit"? Why do people who have allot of will power in other parts of their lives fail at gambiling or smoking or eating?

Your thesis leaves so many questions unanswered, do you really know what you are talking about or are you simply making gueses based on your intuition and lifes experiences?

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by zultr
Coincidentally, the first place on the web I went to after leaving here had this (http://www.boston.com/dailynews/152/nation/Driving_longer_means_larger_wa:.shtml) on the topic.

Suburban, white men typically weighed about 10 pounds more than men who lived in dense urban areas with shops and services, according to the study, which will be presented Thursday at a national obesity conference in Virginia.

The study was paid for by $4 million in grants from the Georgia Department of Transportation, Georgia Regional Transportation Authority and the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The Atlanta Regional Commission and the Environmental Protection Agency also participated.


LMAO! 4 million dollars to find out that Suburban white men weigh more than men from urban areas and come to the conclusion that driving is the cause. I suppose that having the income to afford Suburban living doesn't mean that you won't have more food around the house, eh?

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal




LMAO! 4 million dollars to find out that Suburban white men weigh more than men from urban areas and come to the conclusion that driving is the cause. I suppose that having the income to afford Suburban living doesn't mean that you won't have more food around the house, eh?
Considering that there is IIRC an inverse correlation, between income and weight, I dare say that that's not the explanation.

Edited to add: I did a quick search, and according to this study 31,1% of women and 35% of men with an income less than 131% of the poverty level are obese, while the same is true for only 18,7% of women and 22,5% of the men among those with income over 350% of the poverty level.

[Ion]

Below is my personal take on this subject:
.................................................. ..................

.) I side with the presence of a lack of personal responsability, in regards to many fat people that I observe in the U.S.;

.) I am from Europe, East then West;

.) for me, in U.S., daily exercising as a priority is grounded in an upbringing instilled in Europe;

.) like in the motto 'Mens Sana in Corpore Sano' coined by Juvenal around 120 A.D., I believe in the good of a balance between decent fitnesses for the brain and the body;

.) in my case, this means choosing for years the pursuit of a scientific education, learning many languages, and exercising in a sport -outside a full time work- for about 15 hours per week, then competing;

.) this choice takes in my mind precedence over activities like watching TV;
(the last time when I watched TV, it was in 2000 during the Sydney Olympics)

.) physically I am 6 feet tall, I weigh around 157 pounds and I benchpress about twice my body weight -even though benchpressing is secondary in my sport-.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Ion
physically I am 6 feet tall, I weigh around 157 pounds and I benchpress about twice my body weight -even though benchpressing is secondary in my sport-. And of course you are intolerant of people who don't think and act as you do.

[zultr]

Originally posted by RandFan
It doesn't really answer the question.

I didn’t know I was trying to answer the question. I assumed writing “I don't know. I think it depends a lot on the individual,” and “I'm certainly no expert on addiction” would have tipped you off on this point.

Originally posted by RandFan
What are the statistics for people quiting heroin, smoking, any behavior?

I don’t feel compelled to research stats for all behaviors for your edification, but you already know the answer to the smoking question. After you stated that “95% of people who quit smoking don't start again,” I posted that it is in fact slightly more than 93%. I would bet those results fall within their respective margins for error, making the difficulty of each act indistinguishable, rendering your initial comment wrong. You do rely on science rather than personal guesses for your analysis, don’t you?

Originally posted by RandFan
If giving up golfing on saturdays is statistically easier than smoking then can't we come to a conclusion as to the merits of will power versus phisological addiction?

Do you know for a fact that giving up golfing on Saturdays is statistically easier for everyone to give up than smoking? If not, then why are you stating it as fact? Perhaps quitting golf would be easier for you personally, but wouldn’t that make “your experience anecdotal?” After all, “isn't it rational to accept science over anecdotal evidence?” For you, lifestyle changes that lead to weight loss are difficult for you to bear; in fact, they make you “nervous and miserable to be with.” What of an individual who is completely obsessed with golf and couldn’t give a rats ass about smoking or eating? Is their experience irrelevant because you don’t share their perception or that they constitute a statistical minority?

Originally posted by RandFan
Why do people who have allot of will power in other parts of their lives fail at gambiling or smoking or eating?

Are those the only things that people fail at, or are they what you perceive to be the most common? Some people fail at keeping their garages clean while gambling, smoking, and eating pose no challenge at all. I’m sure that statistics indicate that certain behaviors that are more difficult to kick than others, but since there are so many exceptions and variations to the rule, it seems to depend on the individual.

Originally posted by RandFan
Your thesis leaves so many questions unanswered, do you really know what you are talking about or are you simply making gueses based on your intuition and lifes experiences?

I believe I am raising some logical questions while not necessarily knowing the answer. I’m also pointing out that science at this point may not have all the answers either (it does happen, believe it or not). Obesity is a new phenomenon in human history and its study is in its infancy. I haven’t seen any scientific studies that specifically address the points I am raising (if you find them, I’m willing to be enlightened), and it is perfectly reasonable that such points be considered; to do so is far more reasonable than latching on to the first study that says what you’d like to hear.

You keep mentioning science (without citing any) to support your claim, but I'm not sure what your claim is. You stated earlier that you don’t want to be considered “disabled.” Well, you seem to be arguing both sides of the coin. Is obesity something beyond one’s control that qualifies for a disease or disability, or something else?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by zultr
I didn’t know I was trying to answer the question. I assumed writing “I don't know. I think it depends a lot on the individual,” and “I'm certainly no expert on addiction” would have tipped you off on this point. Then what is the point to your post? You make these claims and then say you don't know. Why did you bother in the first place.

I don’t feel compelled to research stats for all behaviors for your edification, but you already know the answer to the smoking question. After you stated that “95% of people who quit smoking don't start again,” I posted that it is in fact slightly more than 93%. I would bet those results fall within their respective margins for error, making the difficulty of each act indistinguishable, rendering your initial comment wrong. You do rely on science rather than personal guesses for your analysis, don’t you? I said that I could very well be wrong and have not addressed it since. What I don't understand is how you arrive at your original premise since you admit your lack of understanding of the subject.

Do you know for a fact that giving up golfing on Saturdays is statistically easier for everyone to give up than smoking? If not, then why are you stating it as fact? Perhaps quitting golf would be easier for you personally, but wouldn’t that make “your experience anecdotal?” After all, “isn't it rational to accept science over anecdotal evidence?” For you, lifestyle changes that lead to weight loss are difficult for you to bear; in fact, they make you “nervous and miserable to be with.” What of an individual who is completely obsessed with golf and couldn’t give a rats ass about smoking or eating? Is their experience irrelevant because you don’t share their perception or that they constitute a statistical minority? This is great if you will apply it consistently. If you do it makes your original statement moot.

Are those the only things that people fail at, or are they what you perceive to be the most common? Some people fail at keeping their garages clean while gambling, smoking, and eating pose no challenge at all. I'm sure that statistics indicate that certain behaviors that are more difficult to kick than others, but since there are so many exceptions and variations to the rule, it seems to depend on the individual. Again, then I fail to see why you bothered to respond in the first place. Why did you tell us about your anecdotal experience if it has no bearing or no meaning at all?

I believe I am raising some logical questions while not necessarily knowing the answer. I'm also pointing out that science at this point may not have all the answers either (it does happen, believe it or not). Obesity is a new phenomenon in human history and its study is in its infancy. I haven’t seen any scientific studies that specifically address the points I am raising (if you find them, I’m willing to be enlightened), and it is perfectly reasonable that such points be considered; to do so is far more reasonable than latching on to the first study that says what you’d like to hear. I have not seen any points that you have raised other than fat people are in denial and your proof is your own experience.

As to studies I can only ask "where have you been for the past two decades?"

Palo Alto Medical Foundation (http://www.pamf.org/health/healthinfo/index.cfm?page=article&sgml_id=hw252864)

Obesity is a result of many factors. Although it was once thought that a lack of will power—eating too much—and a lack of physical activity caused obesity, it is now recognized that family influence, genetics (including your basal metabolic rate, or BMR), and cultural and psychological factors all contribute to becoming obese.

Alvarado Hospital Medical Center (http://www.gastricbypass.com/WhatMO.htm)
Children adopted at birth show no correlation of their body weight with that of their adoptive parents, who feed them, and teach them how to eat. They show an 80% correlation of their body weight with their genetic parents, whom they have never even met.

cal twins, with the same genes, show a much higher similarity of body weights, than do fraternal twins, who have different genes.

Certain genetic populations, such as the American Indians of the Southwest, have a very high incidence of severe obesity. They also have a markedly increased incidence of diabetes and heart disease.

Mice can be bred, which are very obese (they look like little powder puffs). This is the result of a defect in a single gene, called the ob gene, which is associated with the ability to make a hormone, called leptin. The problem in humans is much more complicated genetically, with over 100 genes involved in some aspect of obesity.

Another hormone has recently been discovered, called ghrelin, which stimulates appetite in normal persons. Persons who lose weight by dieting have persistently elevated ghrelin levels, urging them to eat more. Persons who undergo a gastric bypass have a decrease in ghrelin levels by about 77%, indicating one mechanism of how the operation reduces appetite.

You keep mentioning science (without citing any) to support your claim...Sorry, I had assumed that you had picked up a newspaper a few times in the last two decades.

...but I'm not sure what your claim is. That the subject of this thread is idiotic and presumptuous in the face of facts.

You stated earlier that you don’t want to be considered “disabled.” Well, you seem to be arguing both sides of the coin. Is obesity something beyond one’s control that qualifies for a disease or disability, or something else? I see no value in calling obesity a disease or disability. To what end? I eschew political correctness and I see zero value in it. Why not simply call it obesity and treat it as a condition. As to science there is tons of it. How anyone could get through life without seeing it is beyond me. I understand that since I'm overweight I'm more likely to know but damn, this stuff is in the news all of the time.

It's like you asking me to prove the world is round.

Link found between obesity and brain receptors (http://suewidemark.netfirms.com/receptors_fat.htm)

Brain scans show that obese people, just like drug addicts, have fewer receptors for dopamine, a neurotransmitter that helps produce feelings of satisfaction and pleasure.

The finding at the Brookhaven National Laboratory has prompted scientists to theorize that one reason people overeat is to stimulate the dopamine "pleasure" circuits in the brain, just as addicts do by taking drugs.

"This is the first scientific contribution that the addictive pathways are deficient in the obese and it may explain their cravings," said Dr. George Blackburn, an associate professor of nutrition at Harvard Medical School.

What Causes Obesity? (http://www.medicinenet.com/Obesity_Weight_Loss/page2.htm)

The balance between calorie intake and energy expenditure determines a person's weight. If a person eats more calories than he or she burns, the person gains weight (the body will store the excess energy as fat). If a person eats fewer calories than he or she burns, he or she will lose weight. Therefore the most common causes of obesity are overeating and physical inactivity. At present, we know that there are many factors that contribute to obesity, some of which have a genetic component:How much science would you like?

[zultr]

Originally posted by RandFan
What is the point to your post? You make these claims and then say you don't know. Why did you bother in the first place.
My first post was prompted by a claim that the obese were “disabled.” I stated that there is no clear evidence that the condition can be explained by medical factors alone (as contrasted with lifestyle choices and societal conditions) and therefore should not be termed a disability in the classic sense of the term. At one end of the spectrum, there is someone who is fat due solely to the fact that they are fantastically lazy and don't care, and at the other end, there is someone who leads a fastidiously healthy lifestyle but suffers from a medical condition that has left them obese. In between, the majority consist of a mixture of the two. I claimed that I was not an expert in the field, but I stated my opinion based on what I do know. Are people allowed to have opinions, or is questioning what you consider gospel taboo? I never discounted any of the medical findings that anyone raised, but instead noted things like the rise in obesity corresponds to the rise in sedentary lifestyles and high-fat foods – things that genetic causes do not fully explain. I don’t believe I stated anything more than should be intuitive to most reasonably knowledgeable people.

Originally posted by RandFan
This is great if you will apply it consistently. If you do it makes your original statement moot.
Um, I was applying your own capricious standards to your own statements to show the flaws in your analysis. Guess you missed that subtle tactic, quotations and all.

Originally posted by RandFan
Brain scans show that obese people, just like drug addicts, have fewer receptors for dopamine, a neurotransmitter that helps produce feelings of satisfaction and pleasure.
Can behavior alter brain scans when people perform routines they like (like say, play golf)? If you have fewer receptors for dopamine, does that mean that you will be either obese or a drug addict? If not, why not? Also, you state that you don’t consider obesity a disability, but you’re comparing obesity to drug addiction. Is drug addiction a disease/disability?

You felt compelled to highlight the following:
At present, we know that there are many factors that contribute to obesity, some of which have a genetic component.

Do you think I’m arguing with that quote, especially after I stated “In no way am I disparaging those who have legitimate health issues because of obesity caused by medical conditions”? No. I’m merely pointing out that since “some” of the factors that contribute to obesity are genetic, then “some” of the factors are also linked to lifestyle. Do you dispute this point?

Originally posted by RandFan
How much science would you like?
Post all the medical causes for obesity you like. There is plenty of science that shows that the obese tend to be less active, more sedentary, and eat more. Maybe all of those actions are medically based too (perhaps being an ********* will be found to be a medical condition). Assuming genetic predisposition for obesity is static throughout the world, genetics cannot explain why the United States is leading the world in fat. Period. Want some science? Here’s what the WHO says on the subject:

The rising (obesity) epidemic reflects the profound changes in society and in behavioral patterns of communities over recent decades. While genes are important in determining a person's susceptibility to weight gain, energy balance is determined by calorie intake and physical activity. Thus societal changes and worldwide nutrition transition are driving the obesity epidemic.

Economic growth, modernization, urbanization and globalization of food markets are just some of the forces thought to underlie the epidemic. As incomes rise and populations become more urban, diets high in complex carbohydrates give way to more varied diets with a higher proportion of fats, saturated fats and sugars. At the same time, large shifts towards less physically demanding work have been observed worldwide. Moves towards less physical activity are also found in the increasing use of automated transport, technology in the home, and more passive leisure pursuits.

Your citation stated the following:
Certain genetic populations, such as the American Indians of the Southwest, have a very high incidence of severe obesity.

But, according to the American Obesity Association:
Ethnic groups in many industrialized countries appear to be affected by obesity as a result of modernization and urbanization. Genetic predisposition for obesity is suggested to be a factor that only becomes apparent after exposure to a more Western lifestyle.

Here's what else they had to say:
The American Obesity Association:
Environmental and behavioral changes brought about by economic development, modernization, and urbanization have been linked to the rise in global obesity. Developed countries have high obesity rates, food deprivation is unusual, and physical activity levels have decreased greatly. Lower income households are reported to feature diets composed of foods that tend to be high in calories and fat - contributors to overweight and obesity - since vegetables, fruits and whole grain cereals are more expensive.

* Developing countries have lower obesity rates… people who live in these areas are limited in their ability to provide enough food, have little access to public transportation and engage in moderate to heavy manual labor.

* Obesity is relatively uncommon in African and Asian developing countries, although when present, it is more prevalent in urban than in rural populations (in the U.S., almost 50% of African American women are obese).

* Many South-East Asian countries are presently undergoing a "nutrition transition" involving a shift in the structure of diet, decreased physical activity and rapid increases in the prevalence of obesity.

* Modernization, the growth of industry and technology, was introduced over 50 years ago in the Western world. Modernization has led to an abundance of food (particularly high caloric intake) and a decrease in overall physical activity, contributing to increased rates of obesity.

* Urbanization and population growth in large cities is associated with changes in diet (more reliance on non-traditional foods) and a more sedentary lifestyle

* Obesity rates have risen threefold or even more in some parts of North America, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific Islands, Australasia and China since 1980. Changes in food processing and production and in agricultural and trade policies have affected the daily diet of hundreds of millions of people.

* The number of women entering the job market has increased with economic development, and contributed to an increased dependence on convenience foods and the use of labor saving devices such as microwaves.


Does any of this contradict my comments on this issue from above?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by zultr
Does any of this contradict my comments on this issue from above? I believe so.

And I agree with all of the data you provide. If I moved to Africa where there was little food and I had to physically work hard just to survive then I would loose weight. There is no question about that. Likewise if an alcoholic moved someplace where there was no alcohol then he would cease to be an alcoholic.

Let's look at your original post that started all of this.

This thread is about denial - this nation has perfected it. See, we're not obese because we're lazy and eat crappy food, we're obese because we're "disabled." Or because our metabolisms are too slow. Or because our genes predispose us to obesity. Horsesh!t. When I leave this country, the only fat people I see are Americans on vacation. Since we are a nation of immigrants, primarily of European and African descent, how is it that we've evolved some kind of fat genes that bypassed our European and African breathren? We haven't. We just eat more than they do.Of course you then hedged your bet.

Edited to add

Obesity is similar to substance abuse and I don't deny that many people have problems and may need treatment. However, I'm not comfortable granting the same "disease" or "disability" status to a group that includes those with cerebral palsy or cancer, as well as those who can resolve their conditions with behavior modification. Now it seems that you are arguing both sides of the issue.

Are we more sedentary? Yes.

Do we eat more? Yes.

Let me ask you some questions.

Everyone that I have ever known to be fat has lost lots of weight only to put it back on again.

Do you have any studies to show that people are in fact in denial?

You note that the diet industry is big business in America, does this not belie the fact that Americans are in denial?

Isn't the lifestyle that Americans enjoy relatively new in terms of evolution? Is it possible that after thousands of years of evolution we are predisposed to eat as many calories as possible and expend no more energy than is needed to survive?

Is it possible that Americans have more opportunity to be sedentary and eat more and therefore evolution is working against us?

If people around the world were given the same opportunities to conserve energy and consume as many calories as possible wouldn't the statistics be different?

Does contempt for lazy and fat Americans solve anything?

[zakur]

Many Parents Clueless About Children's Weight (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=571&ncid=751&e=2&u=/nm/20040604/hl_nm/children_weight_dc)NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - As many as half of all children in middle school may be overweight or at risk of being overweight, according to the results of a new U.S. study. However, the results of a study from the UK indicate that many parents do not see a problem.

"Parents are unaware that their children are overweight or obese," study author Alison N. Jeffery of Derriford Hospital and Peninsula Medical School in Plymouth told Reuters Health in an interview.

What's most troubling is that "most were unconcerned" about their children's weight, said Jeffery, who is a senior research nurse on the study.

The results of both the US and UK studies were presented Friday at the annual meeting of the American Diabetes Association in Orlando.

About a third of obese girls and about half of obese boys were considered to weigh "about right" by their parents, Jeffery's team found in a study of 300 children and their families.

Moreover, a third of mothers and half of fathers who were overweight or obese themselves considered their own weight to be "about right."

[charley_bigtime]

Originally posted by TAILGUNNER
I weight trained and lead a very physical life as such in my prime so to speak i went in at 16 stone of good muscle but even then in clinical terms i was obese given my height of 5'10"(my ideal weight being 11 and a half stone:jaw:), since an accident i cannot lead the life i once did as such my weight is plus half a stone (not bad really i still swim) but i eat the right foods and still have semi decent muscle size but for the flak i get off my doctor you'd think i'd spent my life not moving and being fed lard

yes there are some real porkers who risk serious problems but on the whole any government figures should be taken with a pinch of salt(healthy low salt and not too much if you please)as i for one know that i make up a percentage of my countries national figures for obesity and i know its not justified

Sorry TG - I've seen a picture of you and you *are* a tub of lard. ;)

[Beerina]

If I'm at a fast food restaraunt, I get panicky and depressed if I don't order enough to gorge (or well-fill) my stomach.

That's why I always have to laugh at weight loss drugs that work on reducing your hunger. It isn't about hunger per-se. It's about filling yourself with enough food so you can be calm. The drug makers just don't get it.

And what's the status on speed-like weight loss drugs used in Europe. Is it true they're banned here (in the US) because an adict might get ahold of them illegally, not because they're not safe and effective? (Actual knowledge of the situation requested, not "educated guesses".)