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EGarrett
30th May 2004, 12:33 PM
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.

3. God, or a being with ultimate control over the universe, is a possibility.

4. God occurred.

5. At the point when God occurred, he took control of all possibilities and invented the universe. This is the big bang.

6. From that point on, God has simply watched, just like a child with an ant farm.

Martin
30th May 2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by EGarrett
God, or a being with ultimate control over the universe, is a possibilityProve it.

TheERK
30th May 2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Prove it.

It logically follows from #2, assuming #1 is true.

The problem I have with this proof lies with #5. This might not be theoretically possible.

However, it is an interesting concept. Did you ever stop to think about the implications of many-worlds interpretations of QM? In some worlds, Zeus really exists, and really shoots lightning bolts to smite people. It sounds absurd, and it is, because it has a ridiculously low probability of happening. But that's what many worlds is about. :)

scribble
30th May 2004, 01:07 PM
Assuming 1-4 are true, 5 & 6 still don't follow.

They *might* follow if you removed the "or" in 3, but if you did, then 3 becomes a *lot* shakier.

scribble
30th May 2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by TheERK
It sounds absurd, and it is, because it has a ridiculously low probability of happening. But that's what many worlds is about. :)

What makes you feel it has any probability at all?

Martin
30th May 2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by TheERK
It logically follows from #2, assuming #1 is trueNo, it doesn't.

jimlintott
30th May 2004, 02:21 PM
The best way to prove something is to have something to prove.

What is god? Please define or describe.

Pantastic
30th May 2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by EGarrett
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

I take issue with most of the points, but I only need dispute this one.
Something has always existed. Why? How can you say this? Where is the proof? It is a difficult and perhaps impossible task for a human to conceive of there being 'nothingness' before the universe began, but that doesn't mean it wasn't so.

From here, the argument falls apart.

Earthborn
30th May 2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by EGarrett
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.This may not be true according to some interpretations of modern physics.2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.All possibilities can only occur on an infinite timeline. If the timeline is not infinite than by definition, not all possibilities could have occured. Since (1) keeps the possibility open that the universe may not be eternal it cannot be concluded that all possibilities must occur.3. God, or a being with ultimate control over the universe, is a possibility.A possibility perhaps, but not a certainty. Therefore4. God occurred.cannot be concluded.

5. At the point when God occurred, he took control of all possibilities and invented the universe. This is the big bang.Even if we assume that the time exists long enough for God to occur, it cannot be concluded that He must already have occured. We might after all also assume that the universe occured by chance if only we give it enough time, without the need for a God.6. From that point on, God has simply watched, just like a child with an ant farm.If we assume that God created the universe and took control of it, there is nothing that proves He has not influenced it after He created it, or even constantly intervenes. All we can conclude is that if God intervenes, He does it in ways that make it impossible to prove that He does.

Silicon
30th May 2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by EGarrett
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

If you can tell me how you know this, we might agree. However, there's no proof of anything existing before the big bang.

2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.

That's not true. Impossible possibilities do not occur.

For instance, since the number of real numbers is infinite, you might say that all possibilities of numbers occur.

But IMAGINARY numbers (for example, the square root of -5) do not exist.

If God is like an imaginary number, He doesn't exist, even in the infinite realm of real numbers.

And now I derail your quote. I do this to shame you, so that you learn your lesson and next time you do not hide invisible unproven assertions in your proofs.

3. A giant lesbian robot who looks like Sylvester Stallone is a possibility.

4. A giant lesbian robot who looks like Sylvester Stallone occurred.

5. At the point when a giant lesbian robot who looks like Sylvester Stallone occurred, he/she took control of all possibilities and invented the universe. This is the big bang.

6. From that point on, a giant lesbian robot who looks like Sylvester Stallone has simply watched, just like a child with an ant farm.

DangerousBeliefs
30th May 2004, 04:30 PM
This atheist is still waiting for evidence... I won't accept illogical proofs as evidence.

The fact that this is the best you can come up with... speaks volumes for my beliefs.

dretceterini
30th May 2004, 05:21 PM
There is something that always existed. It is called energy. It can neither be created nor destoyed; it just continuouky changes form....but there is no neeed to call it God; a purely theistic concept. Everything "attributed" to God can simply be innate in existance itself..

Iacchus
30th May 2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by dretceterini
There is something that always existed. It is called energy. It can neither be created nor destoyed; it just continuouky changes form....but there is no neeed to call it God; a purely theistic concept. Everything "attributed" to God can simply be innate in existance itself.. Very interesting. Does that mean that energy waves existed before the Big Bang? Or, how exactly would that work?

EGarrett
30th May 2004, 06:29 PM
Martin: Prove it.
Simple. There exist trillions of beings with limited control over the universe. (You, me, 6 billion other people and trillions of bacteria and insects). The possibility exists that we are a creation of a being with UNlimited control. Note that for this argument, only the POSSIBILITY is necessary.

What is god? Please define or describe.
The definition is within the first post.

Something has always existed. Why? How can you say this? Where is the proof? It is a difficult and perhaps impossible task for a human to conceive of there being 'nothingness' before the universe began, but that doesn't mean it wasn't so.
Earthborn:
All possibilities can only occur on an infinite timeline. If the timeline is not infinite than by definition, not all possibilities could have occured.
We can observe that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Using that knowledge...that energy has always existed in some form. Thus, the timeline before our particular period extends infinitely backwards. And let me add that the Ultimate Logical God Proof (c) does not state that the Universe is eternal.

Earthborn: If we assume that God created the universe and took control of it, there is nothing that proves He has not influenced it after He created it, or even constantly intervenes.
False. There is no interaction or indication that He intervenes, thus it is logical to assume that He does not. Ever since that strange moment of the Big Bang, the universe has followed a consistent set of rules that apparently did not exist before the Big Bang.

Silicon: That's not true. Impossible possibilities do not occur.
If they're "impossible," Then they're not possibilities...are they?

dretceterini: there is no neeed to call it God; a purely theistic concept.
The label is theistic, but the actuality can remain.

You can call the sun the Burning Eye of Apollo. The label may be incorrect or offensive, but it's just a term for something that humanity cannot yet understand.

DangerousBeliefs
30th May 2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by EGarrett

Simple. There exist trillions of beings with limited control over the universe. (You, me, 6 billion other people and trillions of bacteria and insects). The possibility exists that we are a creation of a being with UNlimited control. Note that for this argument, only the POSSIBILITY is necessary.

There is a POSSIBILITY that I have an invisible dragon in my garage (http://www.2think.org/sagan1.shtml).

How we tell whether or not I have one is through evidence.

dretceterini
30th May 2004, 07:10 PM
Quote: Very interesting. Does that mean that energy waves existed before the Big Bang? Or, how exactly would that work?

I believe that there have been countless big bangs and big crucches, and that "this" big bang is only one of many in an endless cycle..

Quote:You can call the sun the Burning Eye of Apollo. The label may be incorrect or offensive, but it's just a term for something that humanity cannot yet understand.

True, but most define God theistically; as something OUTSIDE of existance. I take a more panenthesitic or even daoist view

Cinorjer
30th May 2004, 07:35 PM
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

You start with a wrong assumption, that time is a constant and not a quality of our universe. In order to say something "exists", it must be placed within the dimention of time. Since time, itself, came into existance when our universe was created, talking about something "existing" before our universe is like saying the color blue existed before photons were created.

csense
30th May 2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs

There is a POSSIBILITY that I have an invisible dragon in my garage (http://www.2think.org/sagan1.shtml).

How we tell whether or not I have one is through evidence.

I Love these invisible analogies that are so prevalent, yet so erroneous. Invisible and incorporeal are not synonymous.

Martin
30th May 2004, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by EGarrett
The possibility exists that we are a creation of a being with UNlimited control Prove it.

UserGoogol
30th May 2004, 08:05 PM
It's quite a possibility that there WAS no time before the Big Bang, and therefore the was no before, and therefore there was no energy "before" the Big Bang.

So therefore I doubt axiom one. I also doubt axiom three. And I'm not sure about axiom two, come to think of it.

But your "infinite time before the Big Bang" idea isn't actually too far from some actual scientfic theories. The Big Bang occured due to a quantum fluctuation, which happened purely because it could happen. Of course, such a theory does not imply any sort of "creator." It just sorta happened on its own.

Polux
30th May 2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by EGarrett
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

I have no way to know that. But what do you mean by 'always'? Always refers to time, which is a weird thing... in another posting you said 'before the Big Bang' as if time existed there.

2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.
3. God, or a being with ultimate control over the universe, is a possibility.

You don't know whether 3 is really possible. Even if it is, consider this other possibility: nobody ever gets ultimate control over the universe. As it is a possibility, it becomes fact; and contradicts your "God occurred". Now you have a paradox to solve, and for that you need better logic.

dretceterini
30th May 2004, 09:32 PM
Why do people always have to use theistic concepts, such as "God" to desribe the nature of existance?

Kevin_Lowe
31st May 2004, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by EGarrett
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

The truth or otherwise of this proposition is unknowable to us.

2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.

This is certainly not obviously true the way it's stated.

I could buy into some proposition like "If you had an infinite number of universes like ours except that they were all different, if you know what I mean, then all things that are possible in a universe like ours will occur at some point".

But that would imply nothing about things that aren't possible in universes like the one we currently experience.

3. God, or a being with ultimate control over the universe, is a possibility.

I don't see how you can get that out of the universe we experience. From what we've seen of this universe, it isn't possible. That's not a definitive statement, obviously, since our knowledge is limited and we could discover a mechanism for divinity tomorrow. But there's no reason to believe that God is possible based on what we know.

4. God occurred.

Since the first three propositions aren't propositions we should take as true (based on the evidence currently available), propositions 4-6 do not follow.

Besides which if the logic in this argument did work we could tweak it to produce multiple gods, multiple warring gods, gods who get their rocks off torturing their creations, and a supergod who goes around whacking gods with a mallet. It all depends on what you arbitrarily decide is "possible": I suspect you might want to claim that one God is "possible" but that the other scenarios I just made up are "impossible", but I'm not sure how you could support such a claim.

DangerousBeliefs
31st May 2004, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by csense

I Love these invisible analogies that are so prevalent, yet so erroneous. Invisible and incorporeal are not synonymous.

Actually, it does hold true... if you read the story. The dragon is an imaginary dragon.

How do we separate the real from the imaginary?

jimlintott
31st May 2004, 05:40 AM
The definition is within the first post.

Do you mean this?

3. God, or a being with ultimate control over the universe, is a possibility.

So god is a being? Where? What does he or she look like? What colour of underwear does he or she wear? What is ultimate control? Why do you throw the word possibility onto the end? A real definition is more definite.

Please try again without being so vague.

Kevin_Lowe
31st May 2004, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by EGarrett
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

The truth or otherwise of this proposition is unknowable to us.

2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.

This is certainly not obviously true the way it's stated.

I could buy into some proposition like "If you had an infinite number of universes like ours except that they were all different, if you know what I mean, then all things that are possible in a universe like ours will occur at some point".

But that would imply nothing about things that aren't possible in universes like the one we currently experience.

3. God, or a being with ultimate control over the universe, is a possibility.

I don't see how you can get that out of the universe we experience. From what we've seen of this universe, it isn't possible. That's not a definitive statement, obviously, since our knowledge is limited and we could discover a mechanism for divinity tomorrow. But there's no reason to believe that God is possible based on what we know.

4. God occurred.

Since the first three propositions aren't propositions we should take as true (based on the evidence currently available), propositions 4-6 do not follow.

Besides which if the logic in this argument did work we could tweak it to produce multiple gods, multiple warring gods, gods who get their rocks off torturing their creations, and a supergod who goes around whacking gods with a mallet. It all depends on what you arbitrarily decide is "possible": I suspect you might want to claim that one God is "possible" but that the other scenarios I just made up are "impossible", but I'm not sure how you could support such a claim.

csense
31st May 2004, 08:05 AM
Actually, it does hold true... if you read the story. The dragon is an imaginary dragon.

No, it doesn't.
Imaginary is a conclusion, which may or may not be the case for God, but imaginary is not an entity which is similar between the two for the basis of an analogy.

How do we separate the real from the imaginary?

Good question, but we do not however toss reason out the window now do we.

Silicon
31st May 2004, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by EGarrett

If they're "impossible," Then they're not possibilities...are they?

Getting warmer!

Now prove that there's infinite time before the Big Bang, AND prove that God is possible and not imaginary, and you have a proof!

dretceterini
31st May 2004, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Now prove that there's infinite time before the Big Bang

Time and space doesn't reallly exist; never have and never will. They are both human constructs; systems of quantification WE created in order to be able to realate to one another.

EGarrett
31st May 2004, 09:41 AM
You start with a wrong assumption, that time is a constant and not a quality of our universe.
Poppycock. The first statement of The Ultimate Logical God Proof (c) says that something had to exist to cause the universe to exist. Time is not necessarily a factor.

Martin: Prove it.
Simple. There exist trillions of beings with limited control over the universe. (You, me, 6 billion other people and trillions of bacteria and insects). The possibility exists that we are a creation of a being with UNlimited control. Just as ants can live in an ant farm, there is the possibility for them that their very farm is an element of someone else's home.

Note that for this argument, only the POSSIBILITY is necessary.

Even if it is, consider this other possibility: nobody ever gets ultimate control over the universe. As it is a possibility, it becomes fact; and contradicts your "God occurred". Now you have a paradox to solve, and for that you need better logic.

Possibilities that preclude other possibilities from ever happening are not among those that inevitably occur.

For further explanation, apply your reasoning to an infinite number of coin flips. The coin cannot always come up heads AND always come up tails.

Besides which if the logic in this argument did work we could tweak it to produce multiple gods, multiple warring gods, gods who get their rocks off torturing their creations, and a supergod who goes around whacking gods with a mallet. It all depends on what you arbitrarily decide is "possible": I suspect you might want to claim that one God is "possible" but that the other scenarios I just made up are "impossible", but I'm not sure how you could support such a claim.

The Ultimate Logical God Proof (c) states that the God that came into being took control of all possibilities and precluded further chaos.

Why do you throw the word possibility onto the end? A real definition is more definite.

The word "possibility" is essential to the proof.

Some Friggin Guy
31st May 2004, 09:54 AM
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

2. On a long enough timeline (infinite), all possibilities occur.

3. The non-existence of any gods is a possibility.

4. No gods have ever occured.

T?here is no need, using the same logical "proof" presented in the begining of this thread, to contiue with steps 5 or 6. Owing to the use of Occam's Razor, this is the concept with the greater possibility, since it is the simplest explanation.

Polux
31st May 2004, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by EGarrett

Possibilities that preclude other possibilities from ever happening are not among those that inevitably occur.

Then, your possibility (that a God takes control of the universe) does not inevitably occur, since it precludes from happening the possibility that no Gods ever exist.

Iacchus
31st May 2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by EGarrett

Poppycock. The first statement of The Ultimate Logical God Proof (c) says that something had to exist to cause the universe to exist. Time is not necessarily a factor.Much like our shadow, time is merely a passive element anyway. It doesn't do anything except go along for the ride so speak. It's wholly contingent upon movement which, is contingent upon space. So there's nothing to say there wasn't something preemptive before the original stillness, just that there was no space, and no shadow to follow suit.

Beleth
31st May 2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Silicon
Now prove that there's infinite time before the Big Bang,Actually, this was going to be the second half of the argument in my "no such thing as Eternity" post - that since talking about "infinite time" towards the future is meaningless, so is talking about "infinite time" into the past.

There wasn't an infinite amount of time before the Big Bang. There couldn't have been. So EGarrett's first point is absurd. And so any conclusion based on it must be absurd as well.

triadboy
31st May 2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Silicon
Now prove that there's infinite time before the Big Bang, ...

St. Augustine was once asked, "What was God doing through all the eternity of time before He created heaven and earth?"

He replied, "Creating hell for those who ask questions like you."

dmarker
31st May 2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by EGarrett
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.

3. God, or a being with ultimate control over the universe, is a possibility.

4. God occurred.

5. At the point when God occurred, he took control of all possibilities and invented the universe. This is the big bang.

6. From that point on, God has simply watched, just like a child with an ant farm.

1. Such as? We have no evidence of what may or may not have existed before the Big Bang. For all we know it could have been Invisible Pink Unicorns.

2. Like dehydrated water?

3. Like Invisible Pink Unicorns

4-6. Are you saying that God occurred because there was a possiblity that god occurred? Do you have the evidence that god indeed occurred? Without that evidence 4 to 6 are useless.

dmarker
31st May 2004, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by EGarrett

Simple. There exist trillions of beings with limited control over the universe. (You, me, 6 billion other people and trillions of bacteria and insects). The possibility exists that we are a creation of a being with UNlimited control. Just as ants can live in an ant farm, there is the possibility for them that their very farm is an element of someone else's home.

Note that for this argument, only the POSSIBILITY is necessary.

Possibilities that preclude other possibilities from ever happening are not among those that inevitably occur.

For further explanation, apply your reasoning to an infinite number of coin flips. The coin cannot always come up heads AND always come up tails.

The Ultimate Logical God Proof (c) states that the God that came into being took control of all possibilities and precluded further chaos.

The word "possibility" is essential to the proof.

First, the universe a huge place. Nothing on earth, not even in the trillions can control what goes on in the next star, much less in the rest of the universe.

Second, your god proof precludes another choice. You are saying that since god is possible god must exist, just like saying that if one side of the coin is heads the only possible outcome of a coin flip is heads.

Where is your evidence that a god took control of the chaos?

Martin
31st May 2004, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by EGarrett

Simple. There exist trillions of beings with limited control over the universe. (You, me, 6 billion other people and trillions of bacteria and insects). The possibility exists that we are a creation of a being with UNlimited controlProve it.

jimlintott
31st May 2004, 02:00 PM
The word "possibility" is essential to the proof.

Without a description or definition of what it is you are trying to prove, I am completely uninterested in your proof.

Is it logical to attempt to prove something that one is either unable or unwilling to define?

DangerousBeliefs
31st May 2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by csense
but we do not however toss reason out the window now do we.

Is this your catch-phrase response to all posts?

An invisible dragon in my garage and God have the exact same level of proof... and either is POSSIBLE... it does not mean either is real.

For that we need evidence... and I'm still waiting on that. Anyone?

csense
31st May 2004, 05:55 PM
An invisible dragon in my garage and God have the exact same level of proof... and either is POSSIBLE... it does not mean either is real.

Then the analogy is impotent since it is just reaffirming the obvious, that God may or may not exist, unless of course, that was the intent of the analogy, which I doubt, but which I think you fear debating.

DangerousBeliefs
31st May 2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by csense
Then the analogy is impotent since it is just reaffirming the obvious, that God may or may not exist

BINGO..... and so may Umpa Lumpas.

unless of course, that was the intent of the analogy,

You're so quick.

which I doubt, but which I think you fear debating.

:confused:

Debate what?

csense
31st May 2004, 07:33 PM
It seems I've overestimated you since these analogies are most often used to propose something other than neutral conclusions, so until such time, I'll withdraw my complaint.

evildave
31st May 2004, 09:07 PM
Have you stepped in any invisible dragon droppings, lately?

triadboy
31st May 2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by evildave
Have you stepped in any invisible dragon droppings, lately?

We just got a male Border Collie puppy...does that count?

Yahzi
31st May 2004, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by EGarrett
2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.
But the universe existing without God is a possiblity. So it must occur.

Your argument proves both sides of the issue. From this we logically deduce that there is something wrong with your argument.

Anders
1st June 2004, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by EGarrett

2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.

Well, not necessarily true, because we have a small thing called entropy and the first law of thermodynamics. If you change that to a infinite number of universes, you actually have a scientific support in that statement.

TheERK
1st June 2004, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

2. On a long enough timeline (infinite), all possibilities occur.

3. [B]The non-existence of any gods is a possibility.

4. No gods have ever occured.

If you flip a coin enough times (infinite), all finite sequences occur.

Tails never coming up is a sequence.

Tails never comes up.

...

I have serious problems with the logic in the OP, but I don't think this is a valid argument against it. Arguing for God, it's talking about just one hit per near-infinite tries. Yet your counter argument argues for zero hits within the whole sequence of tries. Non-existence of God isn't something that happens on one of the tries, it's a condition reached after every try has been completed, each one a failure.

Tricky
1st June 2004, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by EGarrett
1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.

3. God, or a being with ultimate control over the universe, is a possibility.

4. God occurred.

5. At the point when God occurred, he took control of all possibilities and invented the universe. This is the big bang.

6. From that point on, God has simply watched, just like a child with an ant farm.
How about this then?

1. Though the universe may not be eternal, something has always existed.

2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.

3. God, or a being with ultimate control over the universe, is a possibility.
3a. Only one being with ultimate control over the universe is possible

4a. God occurred
4b. Zeus occurred
4c. Allah occurred
4d. Zoroaster occured
4e. Odin occurred
4oo. All gods occured

5. God occured, but existed for only an infinitesimal time until "another possibility" occurred.

Now, perhaps you could claim that once God exists, He makes other gods an imposibility. If you make that claim, then 4o. Laws of the universe that preclude God occurred, making God an impossibility.

ceo_esq
1st June 2004, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by triadboy

St. Augustine was once asked, "What was God doing through all the eternity of time before He created heaven and earth?"

He replied, "Creating hell for those who ask questions like you." LOL.

Seriously though, this doesn't sound like Augustine to me - I don't mean the words, I mean the sentiment. Cite, please.

triadboy
1st June 2004, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by ceo_esq
LOL.

Seriously though, this doesn't sound like Augustine to me - I don't mean the words, I mean the sentiment. Cite, please.

The first act of God recorded in the Bible is that of the creation of the Universe. But since God is eternal, there must have been an infinitely long period of time before he set our Universe into motion. What was he doing during that infinitely long period of time?
When St. Augustine was asked that question, he is supposed to have roared, "Creating Hell for those who ask questions like that!"
Isaac Asimov, In The Beginning , New York: Crown/Stonesong Press, 1981

EGarrett
1st June 2004, 10:14 AM
Most everything presented has been answered by me in previous posts...including the idea of multiple gods occurring and the idea of possibilities occuring that preclude other possibilities from ever happening.

Not that I believe the Ultimate Logical God Proof...or in any god at all...but I got bored and decided to switch sides for a couple days.

Some Friggin Guy
1st June 2004, 11:50 AM
The major hole in the idea of not allowing possibilitiiees that preclude other possibilities is that ALL possibilities will preclude another possibility. The example I used earlier whos what I mean. The possibility of a god precludes the possibity of no god, which, by the rules you have laid down, makes the possibility of a god impossible.

EGarrett
1st June 2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
The major hole in the idea of not allowing possibilitiiees that preclude other possibilities is that ALL possibilities will preclude another possibility. The example I used earlier whos what I mean. The possibility of a god precludes the possibity of no god, which, by the rules you have laid down, makes the possibility of a god impossible.

Not really. What I said was that possibilities that preclude something else from ever happening do not inevitably occur, because they are mutually exclusive of each other.

Take the coin example I used. If you flip a coin an infinite number of times...it cannot come up heads every time and come up tails every time.

(The proof I posted is BS though. I got tired of letting the whoos have all the fun making up random arguments. I'm just seeing how well I can continue to patch all the logical holes being poked in it)

varwoche
1st June 2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Prove it.
I've created a model of the universe. It's an ant farm. The ants just did the macarena. Does that qualify?

UserGoogol
1st June 2004, 02:12 PM
The assumption that everything needs a cause does not seem to be very good. In fact, when you look at quantum mechanics, there are phenomena which appear completely random. (Although probabilistic.) This does not help the "everything has a cause" postulate, although it's fairly easy to conjure up some sort of Random Number God.

evildave
1st June 2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by triadboy

We just got a male Border Collie puppy...does that count?

I dunno. Does it poop invisible dragon poop, or more mundane poop?

triadboy
1st June 2004, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by evildave

I dunno. Does it poop invisible dragon poop, or more mundane poop?

Both

DangerousBeliefs
1st June 2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by triadboy

Both

To remove those poop stains from the carpet simply....

1) Take a very small amount of poop and add it to a gallon of water.

2) Stir

3) Take one drop of the gallon and add to another gallon of water.

4) Repeat a few times

5) Spray onto poop stain on carpet

6) Homepathic spray should remove all stain and odor, if not, your water wasn't pure enough and you'll need to repeat after waiting 7 days.

7) Give me \$100

triadboy
1st June 2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs

To remove those poop stains from the carpet simply....

1) Take a very small amount of poop and add it to a gallon of water.
5) Spray onto poop stain on carpet

...left a weird taste in my mouth....

Renfield
8th June 2004, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by EGarrett

2. On a long enough timeline, all possibilities occur.

This isn't true. There are countless examples in mathematics alone that can demonstrate this.