Homeoquack - Pharmacy and Homeopath

[Prester John]

I have been musing, and considering the totally unregulated nature of homeopathy (despite what Natural health claims), wondered how easy it would be to set up a small business, named as above.

I would sell high potentency homeopathic grade remedies (12C or over only) ie Tap Water. I could also offer homeopathic advise at extravagant rates. i'm thinking of some catch phrases

"I haven't got a clue, but i'll take your dosh anyway"
"Unregulated and Rolling in it"

My concerns are the naming of the tap water i will sell so that i am not claiming to actually have done the dilutions. I would like to advertise myself as a homeopath, but naturally make no claims to the efficacy of what i do. caveat empor?

If anyone has ideas, legal advise :) suggestions etc then please post. How do i set myself up ? Get in the yellow pages ? If its not too expensive i prob do it for real. Great way to make the point. :D

What d'ya think all?

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by Prester John
My concerns are the naming of the tap water i will sell so that i am not claiming to actually have done the dilutions. How about "Cobra Venom" (or whatever the impressive Latin name is) "in a 12C succusion of pharmaceutical-grade refined dihydrogen monoxide"? :D

[MRC_Hans]

Shame on you PJ! You cannot be that lazy. Have you no professional pride? The very least you can do is to put some substances in water, shake it, pour it out, refill, shake, etc. a dozen times. Even if it takes you all of five minutes, I think you can do that for your marks. Like my friend Trinity says, make the last two or three steps while the suc- ehrm, customer is watching. Makes for a very nice little ritual.

Hans

[geni]

Call all your remedies MMMMMMMM1 that way you ony have to shake them once.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

How about something like "We use science to help us make our remedies more efficiently, and passing the savings on to you." This is a code-phrase for "Avogadro says we don't have to sell you anything but water, so that's what we do."

Perhaps you could trademark the word "Homopathy" or "Homepathy."

~~ Paul

[Prester John]

Quote Code "JREF" for a 10% discount! ;)

[Rolfe]

There have been several posters who have sugested a cut-price homoeopathy business just supplying bottles of lactose pills, and a selection of labels to be stuck on to fit the customer's order. As if that wasn't pretty much what's going on anyway.

Then there was the guy who proposed selling anti-seasickness bracelets at the Channel ports, to be told that that pitch had already been taken.

PJ, what you are proposing is so completely identical to what the homoeopaths do, you might as well just join them! :D

Rolfe.

[Soapy Sam]

This started me wondering- do homoeopaths ever get sued for malpractice? If so, why?

[Prester John]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
This started me wondering- do homoeopaths ever get sued for malpractice? If so, why?

With no regulation, no way of proving there remedies are what they say, no proof of efficacy required, disclaimers just in case its hard to see how any but a very stupid homeopath could get sued.
Thats kinda the point i'm making.

[Rolfe]

I know about one who got prosecuted for cruelty to animals. An actual vet, no less.

Unfortunately, a) the RSPCA managed to frame the charge so that he was accused of committing the offence during a time period over which he hadn't actually seen the patient, b) the defendant did a very good smoke-screen job of presenting homoeopathy as a legitimate medical discipline, and himself as a recognised expert in it, and the RSPCA didn't have the backbone to demolish this.

The last I heard of it he was being investigated by the Preliminary Investigation Committee of the RCVS over the same case, but that was over a year ago and I think we'd have heard by now if their outrage at his mindbogglingly bizarre case notes had been sufficient for them to decide to take action.

Pity really. The dog was an incredible mess, skin missing over half its face, skeletally thin, crying in pain all night according to the notes - and what was he saying? "Hering?" What was he prescribing? "Ap. mellif." I'd have strung him up and thrown away the key.

Rolfe.

[geni]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
This started me wondering- do homoeopaths ever get sued for malpractice? If so, why?

In a word no. They are very good at working out how to avoid the local regualtions

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Prester John


With no regulation, no way of proving there remedies are what they say, no proof of efficacy required, disclaimers just in case its hard to see how any but a very stupid homeopath could get sued.
Thats kinda the point i'm making.

Someone I deeply admire said the following;

"I think I know why cases are not heard of harm being caused by
homeopathic remedies and if any homeopath finds themself being
pursued through the courts I know of a rock-solid defence"

http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//forum_posts.asp?TID=1528&TPN=2


Since I have no takers yet for my services as an expert witness, here's the answer-

"It's just water, your honour. The prosecution can provide no evidence that will stand up in this court that I have prescribed anything other than water, so how can I have caused any harm? (Please don't tell my patients)"

[Rolfe]

If you'd seen the photographs of that poor bloody dog, you'd know how they can cause harm!

Oh, but you knew that, didn't you. ;)

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
If you'd seen the photographs of that poor bloody dog, you'd know how they can cause harm!

Oh, but you knew that, didn't you. ;)

Rolfe.

I never got as far as explaining to them about the sins of omission, which they perform all the time, versus those of commission, which they'd love to think they could perform.

[Rolfe]

I'd still like to know what it is that is described as "a gentle method of homoeopathic euthanasia". It's in a book blurb though, and I have no intention of adding to the quack's coffers by buying a copy to find out.

Rolfe.

[Soapy Sam]

Boring to death?
Suffocation in bullsh*8?
Extremely slow arsenic poisoning? (an atom a day keeps the coroner away).

[jimlintott]

"a gentle method of homoeopathic euthanasia"

That would be drowning. Wouldn't it?

As my son pointed out to me, animals don't know about placebo effect so homeopathy cannot be effective on them.

How about this for your product name:

May Bee

;)

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by jimlintott
As my son pointed out to me, animals don't know about placebo effect so homeopathy cannot be effective on them.Sure as hell works on the owners though!

Works better than on people, because the owner isn't experiencing the illness directly, but interpreting the pet's behaviour. It's quite amazing how the homoeoquacks manage to persuade the pet owners that no change (or even continued deterioration, but not actual death) is a wonderful outcome.

Rolfe.

[Prester John]

I've decided, I am a Homeopath.


:D

[Benguin]

This started me wondering- do homoeopaths ever get sued for malpractice? If so, why?

There was a doctor got into a lot of trouble for practicing homeo on a patient instead of giving them proper treatment

read about it here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2666411.stm)

As my son pointed out to me, animals don't know about placebo effect so homeopathy cannot be effective on them.

I'm not totally convinced animals are immune to placebo effects. Every animal I've ever had to take to a vet (or bring a vet to) has responded in a markedly different way. Most animals are not completely stupid, they know a lead/saddle/basket means they are going out, they recognise packing as a sign people are going away so they are getting a holiday or a visit to the kennels. They can beg, sulk, feign hunger and illness to get their own way. Animals I've looked after have certainly been able to make themselves ill with no better reason than emotional excitement or distress, it could be argued placebo is little more than the same thing in reverse.

They might not demonstrate a placebo effect, but then again they might. Do they do placebo trials for vetinary medicine? or as part of animal-based testing?

Many humans do not know about (or understand) the placebo effect but it still is effective on them (some might argue more so for their ignorance of the issue)

[Rolfe]

Isn't it interesting that the two cases we've heard about where action was taken against people for prescribing homoeopathy involved qualified professionals? And the action was taken not by the homoeopathic clubs, but by the regular authorities. I certainly don't know of any case where a homoeopaths' club has ever sanctioned a member, and of course even if they did the quack could just go on doing as they damn well pleased anyway.Originally posted by Benguin
Do they do placebo trials for vetinary medicine? or as part of animal-based testing?Yes.

Rolfe.

[Benguin]

Well I did sort of know the answer already, Rolfey, what I really would like to know is if anyone has tested placebo vs null (or whatever you'd call it) or managed to demonstrate a "placebo effect".

[Rolfe]

Well, it's all about the perceptions of the observer, really. I've mentioned before the trial of some snake-oil preparation for arthritis in dogs where the participants became unblinded because the snake-oil made the dogs smell. There was no difference between control and test groups according to the objective measurements, but it looked very much as if the unblinding had produced a significant result in favour of the snake-oil on the subjective scores.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Benguin
Well I did sort of know the answer already, Rolfey, what I really would like to know is if anyone has tested placebo vs null (or whatever you'd call it) or managed to demonstrate a "placebo effect".

I was talking to an othopaedic specialist who provides consultancy to one of the drug companies that makes one of the big NSAIDs. He said that in their trials with owner and vet blinded to treatment they can get a 40% positive response to placebo. Real drugs may have a response up to 90%

The burden of this story would imply that the 40% placebo response was judged against some form of null .

The question it led me to was to wonder whether the 90% drug response whether this is 50% real + 40% placebo, or whether it is up to 90% real. I think the way to resolve this is to make the assessments objective. In the field of NSAID trials, what they can do is take the human subjective observers out of the loop and make objective measurements: in this case, that is to measure using a force plate, the actual weight that an animal bears on a lame leg. That should reduce placebo response to 0%, leaving real response somewhere between 50 and 90%.


http://66.102.11.104/search?q=cache:qNntpko-BpUJ:www.fda.gov/cvm/efoi/section2/141-219.pdf+%22force+plate+analysis%22+dog+lame+placeb o&hl=en

Frustratingly his link shows a comparison of drug vs placebo on subjective measures and drug vs placebo on force plate, but they were not part of the same study.

Also this was 'after' vs 'before' not 'after-placebo' vs 'after-null'.

I'll have a look around and see whether I can find anything that bridges the gap.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

This;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7759332

has the mixure of subjective and objective assessment of the same animals, which we wanted, but the results in the abstract are presented as Odd Ratios for a 'positive response' rather than the degree of improvement on a continuous scale.

This one;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15025149

might contain the right kind of information.

I think I'll order them from the library.

[Rolfe]

They used force plates in the smelly-snake-oil study too.

No effect at all on force plate measurements. But the subjective assessments of the vets (who almost certainly guessed the identity of a fair proportion of the treated dogs, because of the smell) were significant at p<0.05. The subjective assessments of the owners (some of whom might have put two and two together about the smell, but probably not so much as the vets who saw all the dogs) were reported as almost reaching statistical significance. (Yes, that's how the paper reported it. If I'd been refereeing it I'd have asked them to change that wording.)

Of course, you have to be careful even with objective measurements. If it's a truly hands-off measurement that you have no control over, then fine, but some "objective" measurements do have a degree of subjectivity in them (manual cell counting is a very obvious one), and when that's the case it's still necessary to blind the operator to sample identity.

Rolfe.

[jimlintott]

So it's the human that experiences the placebo effect when they believe their animal is being medicated. Kind of a placebo effect by proxy.

I would find it difficult to believe that your average pet or livestock doesn't know that the antibiotic pill they are being given is anything other than a treat. Without the expectation of healing there won't be any placebo effect. Right?

[Rolfe]

There are a few speculations about when the owner's stress is relieved by believing that everything is under control, the animal will also feel less stressed and so better, but I think it's all a bit tenuous quite frankly.

The two ways "placebo" works in animals is by affecting the perceptions of the person evaluating the patient, and by coincidental recovery. The latter is probably the more important factor in a lot of quackery.

Rolfe.

[Homeoskeptic]

Actually, I have seen homeopathic remedies work instantaneously on animals. I use homeopathy on my dog at times when he needs it and it works extremely well. He is very healthy and has not problems. The last remedy I gave him was Phosphorus by the way.

At one time, he had a skin problem and I gave him a dose of Sulphur and it cleared it straight away. He was itching and scratching all the time. After the dose of Sulphur he stopped.

Why not go and have a chat with Wim over at Hpathy. He treats animals of all varieties all the time with great success and managed to save a dogs leg from amputation with the right remedy. I am sure he would be glad to tell you anything that you want to know about animals and homeopathy. Drop over to Hpathy and have a chat with him.

Just to put you right on one thing though. The doctor who was banned for using homeopathy did not actually prescribe properly. I saw this case and the actually dowsed for a remedy. This is not homeopathy or homeopathic practice at all. If you want to prescribe homeopathically, then a full acute case in this instance needs to be taken and a remedy prescribed on that basis. If she had done this and had then prescribed the correct remedy, then it would most definitely have worked.

Helios pharmacy make remedies by the Hahnemannian method and you can get all the potencies from them from the X's to C's, M's and LM's. You can also get mother tinctures and medicating potencies. It is more than their reputation is worth to make their remedies by any other way and they do have a very good reputation within the homeopathic community.

Why not visit their website at www.helios.co.uk. You can e-mail them for more information about the way they make their remedies and what type of water they use. Their technical director Bob Lawrence is extremely helpful too and he works at the Tunbridge Wells branch.

[Prester John]

Hello fellow Homeopath, how goes the wat..remedy ;) selling comrade?

i've got high potency chemical analogue homeopathic remedies made from filtered purified Welsh water for sale at a reasonable prices if you're interested. I'll also be going for Gold membership at hpathy soon too, help pick which trolls to ban, should be fun eh friend.
TTFN

PJ

[Psiload]

Homeoskeptic wrote:

If you want to prescribe homeopathically, then a full acute case in this instance needs to be taken and a remedy prescribed on that basis.

Then how do you explain this?:

http://www.helios.co.uk./cgi-bin/store.cgi?action=link&sku=AEKIT

Accidents and Emergencies

An essential first-aid remedy kit for the home, car and workplace specifically formulated to be used in even the most severe emergency and accident situations. The kit contains 18 remedies in 200c to provide comfort, relief and promote recovery while waiting, if necessary, for the Emergency Services to arrive.

[garys_2k]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
If you want to prescribe homeopathically, then a full acute case in this instance needs to be taken and a remedy prescribed on that basis. If she had done this and had then prescribed the correct remedy, then it would most definitely have worked.

Right, so it has to be the CORRECT plain water, not any old plain water. Got it.

Hey PJ, are you selling stock yet? I think your venture will be a complete success.

[Prester John]

Thanks garys_2k, i'm gonna set up a website to advertise myself. I've got oodles of stock, it almost as if it comes out of taps, wait a moment....almost gave away a homeopathic secret there folks.

Anyone know a place where i can get some free webspace?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Actually, I have seen homeopathic remedies work instantaneously on animals. [snipped remainder of inventive rant]Oh, isn't debate easy when you just make it all up as you go along!

Rolfe.

[garys_2k]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Oh, isn't debate easy when you just make it all up as you go along!

Rolfe.
That may be a new debating method, I'm not sure (and don't have the list handy). But if it isn't it certainly deserves recognition.

[geni]

Originally posted by Prester John
Thanks garys_2k, i'm gonna set up a website to advertise myself. I've got oodles of stock, it almost as if it comes out of taps, wait a moment....almost gave away a homeopathic secret there folks.

Anyone know a place where i can get some free webspace?

Well for the real authentic look you should go for geocities as a start up. Howver if you want to look established try somewhere else.

[Ralph]

If you'd like to start a practice as a homeopath I'd suggest you start by purchasing a good book on pharmacology.

I'd recommend Goodman & Gilman's "The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics" but there are other suitable choices.

You don't actually have to read the book or understand what it says.

As you flip through the pages you'll see lots of big impressive sounding words like " postsynaptic"--"paroxysmal depolarizing shift"--"gamma-aminobutyric acid"-- and "enterochromaffin system".

Just work all the big words you see into sentences that apply to your particular patient.

They won't understand what you're saying----but they'll be impressed by the big words you're using & will believe every word you tell them.


For example:

Pt complains of headaches and states that nothing his regular MD has prescribed has helped.

You say " AHAH----I've seen this before----many allopathic MDs, due to the limitations they operate under, don't recognize this unsual syndrome.

What's happening is you've experienced a paroxysmal depolarizing shift. This in turn has created a reflux condition which has upset the gamma-aminobutyric acid levels in your enterochromaffin system......

Fortunately--homeopathy has learned how to treat this rare & difficult to diagnose condition by....(now you just sell him whatever the hell you have on your shelf that you want to unload).

All you have to do---is sound good------

Sometimes I wish I had no scruples.......it'd be so easy.......

[Benguin]

The two ways "placebo" works in animals is by affecting the perceptions of the person evaluating the patient, and by coincidental recovery. The latter is probably the more important factor in a lot of quackery.

I'd like to disagree with you to propose the third option you deliberately omitted ...

I think animals do believe they are recieving treatment and respond, at the very least, to prevent being revisited by a vet (most animals I've dealt with hate vets).

We shouldn't underestimate the IQ of pets or farm animals when playing with these theories.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Prester John

Anyone know a place where i can get some free webspace?


I get free web space from my high speed internet provider. You can make it look as professional as you want. I recommend a program like FrontPage. I used composer, which is lacking compared to FrontPage, and it still looks okay I think.

[garys_2k]

Excellent idea, Ralph. He has to have some good lingo to sound oh-so-authoritative. Growing a beard would help, too.

As for websites, may I suggest a black background? It just seems popular with certain websites, those that deal with somewhat "out there" stuff.

Eos, do you want in on the IPO? Rumor has it that we may be able to pay with homeopathic money!

[Martin]

You could always extend your repertoire by studying Homeopathic Psychology (https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/155643099X/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-0834618-1495652).

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by garys_2k

Eos, do you want in on the IPO? Rumor has it that we may be able to pay with homeopathic money! ;)

I could use some extra cash in order to go to TAM3 :D