Cephalic phase

[Kumar]

Hello all,

Can you please tell me the awnser of following question:-

1.Cephalic phase: is the taste, smell, sight, hear or thought of any food triggers the cephalic phase. The cephalic phase is heightened by hunger. 30 - 50% of all gastric secretions occur during the cephalic phase. Now suppose a person just taste, smell, see, hear or think of any food but don't take/consume it. What will then happen to the physiology of body? Will is assimilate/metabolize the inside food substances already present in body related to that food which is sensed effect? EG.; suppose a person sense(taste, smell,see, hear or think of) sugar or sweet, but don't consume it. Will it metabolize & lower blood sugar present in body or not?

Best wishes.

[espritch]

Gastric responses are related to the ingestion of food (i.e. breaking it down so it can be absorbed). The actual metabolizing of the nutrients absorbed is a separate process. E.g. The amount of sugar we burn depends on the amount of physical activity we engage in. So I think the answer to your question would be no.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by espritch
Gastric responses are related to the ingestion of food (i.e. breaking it down so it can be absorbed). The actual metabolizing of the nutrients absorbed is a separate process. E.g. The amount of sugar we burn depends on the amount of physical activity we engage in. So I think the answer to your question would be no. espritch,

Please study & go through the referances before replying in negative sense. Pls read the following links:-

http://distance.stcc.edu/AandP/AP/AP2pages/digestion/control.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg&cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3909830&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8840920&dopt=Abstract

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=Cephalic+phase+&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

In this respect I may also mention to consider & comment on:-

1. "Sensation effects of any stmuli" in relation to the size of molecular particlei.e. if the magnitude of this " Cephalic phase effect" is dependant on the size of molecular particle or on ionic form of any stimuli/food substance?

2. Its(CPE) relation with " Starvation/fasting/ hunger/craving effect". Hunger/craving of any substance can be thought of (a) dependent on its physical/real deficiency where any substance is really deficient in body & to be compensated by actual consuming it (b) dependent on its physiological defficiency due to any physiological disorder i.e. substance is accumulated in system but can not be metabolized/assimilated due to any physiological disorder & so showing its apperant defficiency which can only be corrected by correcting the phydiological disorder or temp. by supplementing/giving more & more of that substance which will also worsen the case furthur.

[Kumar]

Can you all my best wishers comment on this? (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870489904#post1870489904) I am bit......?:confused:

It is mentioned:

What triggers the pancreas to push enzymes into the duodenum?

A number of factors are involved in pancreatic secretion, and is thought to be divided into 3 phases: cephalic (brain), gastric (stomach), and intestinal. The cephalic phase contributes appx. 25% to the pancreatic response, and is controlled by the vagus nerve. The stimulants are sight, smell, taste and eating of food. The gastric phase contributes 10% to the response, and is also via vagal innervation, mainly through stomach distention as it fills with food. The remainder, some 50 – 75% is due to the intestinal phase, mediated by GI hormones (such as secretin and cholecytokinin, aka CCK), and stimulated by amino acids, fatty acids, calcium, and stomach acid. In addition, the pancreas produces a specific peptide known as pancreatic polypeptide (PP), which acts to negatively feedback on pancreatic secretion; that is, it inhibits enzyme secretion. PP is released in response to vagal nerve stimulation..

HERE. (http://www.enzymestuff.com/digestion.htm)

[flume]

I didn't read it yet. But you need to know that a lot of web sites which sell digestive enzymes have what I think is questionable information . This is an area of alternative beliefs on medicine. Some of the information may be standard while other information may be questionable and other information may be totally wrong.

Now I see that the enzymestuff site doesn't sell enzymes and may be okay. I haven't read it yet. But in general, be wary with some of these websites.

[Kumar]

Welcome flume here. Pls read. Pub-med sites are also reffered. "Conditioned Reflexes" (http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n09/mente/pavlov_i.htm) indicated by BSM seems to be relating theory.

[Goshawk]

Kumar, does this all have something to do with elevated insulin levels? And the possible causes of--and treatment for--diabetes?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Goshawk
Kumar, does this all have something to do with elevated insulin levels? And the possible causes of--and treatment for--diabetes? It can be one consideration in diabetic type 2 . But this all does also have relations with other possible secretions by CPE & comlications/conditions related to thereof.

Thanks for one indication i.e.:-

" Just sensing ocasionally, severally & regularily any substance, can as well be a possibile cause of complication/s related to that substance due to Cephalic Phase effect apart from its possible treatment".

[Kumar]

"The skin acts as a good protection against the outside world, but anything we put on our skin can be absorbed to some extent. The pharmaceutical companies have used this fact and developed patches, which are like a small sticking plaster, which can contain drugs of various sorts (eg nicotine, hormones, sea sickness preparations).

When you take tablets of anything, the substance is absorbed from the gut and goes into the bloodstream, and the body slowly gets rid of it over the following hours. This results in fairly high levels of the drug in the blood shortly after taking the tablet, which drop down again until the next dose is taken. Patches, on the other hand, result in a much more constant amount of the substance being in the blood stream for the time the patch is attached.. "Read here. (http://www.medinfo.co.uk/drugs/nicotinepatches.html)

Is it not relevant?

[Kumar]

Hello, where are you? If least discussions on this topic is indicative of something?? :)

Can you tell me that, whether we can divide this " Cephalic phase effect by just sensing but not consuming of any substance" into two parts i.e. 1. CPE within Digestive tract 2. CPE other than the digestive tract ? Case one can show increase in gastric secretions but what will be the secretions & effects in case two?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
[COLOR=red][b]Hello, where are you? If least discussions on this topic is indicative of something??

I think the answer may be that people have given up.

The information you require is all obtainable from standard sources. What you keep asking for is clarification of little out-of-context snippets without explaining why you want the answer. The simple solution to all to these questions is to buy an undergrauate level physiology book and start reading at the beginning.

There is very little in the way of really difficult concepts in biology so even if you have not high school science you should be able to manage such a book.

You need to do this because your scattergun approach is completely depriving you of any sense of the bigger picture, so it is no wonder the isolated facts (or pseudo-facts, thanks to your poor current choice of sources) and concepts confuse you.

You are effectively asking to be given a physiology degree over an internet forum in Q&A style. It ain't gonna work.

[MRC_Hans]

But, since Kumar is a nice person, I'll give it a try. I will attempt to guess your "hidden" questions and then answer them:

Q: Is some of the secretion of enzymes etc. triggered by perception of food and other things not by the actual eating or otherwise absorption of the substance?

A: Yes. Although the degre to which this happend varies gratly for different substances, and in some cases is still under debate.

Q: Could this be used for therapeutic purposes?

A: Yes and it is used, but the possibilities are limited, because a disease that hampers the natural secretion of a useful substance will also hamper this effect.

Q: Could it be used for diabetes treatment?

A: No, because diabetes patients are unable to produce insulin or unable to use it effectively, or both, so stimulating them to secrete more insulin is either impossible, or useless.


See? Notice how straight questions can produce straight answers.

Hans

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

Thanks for the "Nice" comments & explianations in Q&As. This style can be quite helful to me due to "so much thinking, relating, manipulating & language problem as well. It seems to be agreed in general that Other systems( homeopathy, energy healing based alternative & spritual systems) can work in this manner. Now my straight question:-

Q1; Whether various claims/treatments as made/anticipated by 'other systems' equals the effects by this cephalic phase "just taste/sense but no consumption of any substance"?

Q2; How can we divide/seprate this CPE in digestive tract & other parts of body?

BSM, In which book working of 'other systems' is linked & justified to "CPE by sensing but not consuming". Your less criticisms & participation will justify & strengthen my concept & belief.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans,

Thanks for the "Nice" comments & explianations in Q&As. This style can be quite helful to me due to "so much thinking, relating, manipulating & language problem as well.

Yes, isn't it amazing how far you can get by being frank about it?.

It seems to be agreed in general that Other systems( homeopathy, energy healing based alternative & spritual systems) can work in this manner. Now my straight question:-

Q1; Whether various claims/treatments as made/anticipated by 'other systems' equals the effects by this cephalic phase "just taste/sense but no consumption of any substance"?

Yes it is quite possible that a lor of the reported effects come from this, but we must realize that this works mainly for psychological problems, not for physical diseases.

Q2; How can we divide/seprate this CPE in digestive tract & other parts of body?

That is not relevant at all for this mechanism.

BSM, In which book working of 'other systems' is linked & justified to "CPE by sensing but not consuming". Your less criticisms & participation will justify & strengthen my concept & belief. [/B]

Hans

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Yes, isn't it amazing how far you can get by being frank about it?.

It is a big quality.

Yes it is quite possible that a lor of the reported effects come from this, but we must realize that this works mainly for psychological problems, not for physical diseases.

Thanks. I therefore mentioned previously: Allopathy+Tissue Remedies for better(may be perfect) treatment+cure.

"Q2; How can we divide/seprate this CPE in digestive tract & other parts of body?"

That is not relevant at all for this mechanism.

Secretion of insulin due to CPE can be considered as secondary effect & senrations in digestive tract as primary effect. Other CPE can also be divided accordingly.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Kumar
Thanks. I therefore mentioned previously: Allopathy+Tissue Remedies for better(may be perfect) treatment+cure.Actually, leave out the Tissue Remedies and the Allopathy, and use medicine. That gets the best response of all for sure.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zep
Actually, leave out the Tissue Remedies and the Allopathy, and use medicine. That gets the best response of all for sure. WHY, don't you want or like that these should be considered/understood? Never be one sided in healing's understanding/research. It is a vast field with several considerations and ' not yet well understood' concepts.:)

[Rolfe]

The answer to WHY, is that rational investigation is the way to go. Sensible exploration of cause and effect, leading to a coherent theory about how the body works and some ways to improve things when things go wrong. This sensible investigation is sometimes called "science".

You, however, believe in things for which there is no evidence. You believe things have effects that simply aren't there when people look closely and try to replicate them. You are convinced of cause and effect in cases whre there is in fact no effect occurring.

Rejecting this sort of delusion isn't being narrow-minded, it is part of the winnowing process science has to do to sort out truth from fiction, the real from the unreal. Kumar, you are blindly clinging to things that have been shown long ago to be unreal. Please don't expect that others should turn back the clock and join you in your delusions. We will never advance if we cannot reject the wrong ideas. Tissue salts was a wrong idea that was rejected long ago.

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Tissue salts was a wrong idea that was rejected long ago.

Rolfe.

WHO, WHERE, HOW these are rejected? Just show me the valid referances. If nuts are there in few--it does not mean that pea nuts are without nuts. 'Other may contains nuts'.:D

[Rolfe]

Kumar, they have been rejected for two reasons. One is because the people who say they work have never been able to produce any proof that they do work. The other is because there is no sensible way in which we might expect them to work. If an effect had been demonstrated then of course everybody would be interested in seeing why it occurred. Or if there was a reasonable expectation that there might be an effect, then everybody would be interested in seeing whether or not that was the case.

However, combine no effect demonstrated with no effect expected, and science rejects the idea. Until either of these things changes of course.

You are assuming that there is an effect. However, you must understand that we have never seen any reason to agree with you on that.

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

Rolfe,

As you need referance, I also want to see valid referances justifying it. CPE with no consumption by their 'may be possible enhanced & specialized taste or sense' can be a valid concept justifying their working.

[Rolfe]

No, Kumar, I want to see a valid reference saying that they DO work. That's the way it is. The person making the claims has to prove them. Nobody else has to disprove them, and if the claims aren't proved for long enough (150 years is long enough) then we are allowed to reject them.

You say these things work. We will go on rejecting this absurd claim until you prove that they do. End of story.

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Rolfe,

As you need referance, I also want to see valid referances justifying it. CPE with no consumption by their 'may be possible enhanced & specialized taste or sense' can be a valid concept justifying their working. No, it cannot. At least you have not shown that it can. The only effect of CPE you have pointed to was diabetes, and I explained to you why it was unlikely. Plus, all those effects are specialized. For your sweeping claim, it would need to be some generalized principle, and you have not given even a remotely plausible explanaion of that.

Hans

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans, Rolfe,

I think you are bit deviated. You are mentioning differantly that: it is a placebo effect OR CPE already a known effect in science OR it is not an effect at all. Placebo is defined as a medication prescribed more for the mental relief of the patient than for its actual effect on a disorder (2) : an inert or innocuous substance used especially in controlled experiments testing the efficacy of another substance. But my concept of CPE has physiological effect/actual effect by taste/sense.

Rolfe,

"and if the claims aren't proved for long enough (150 years is long enough) then we are allowed to reject them."

But it is still existing in mass public to their repeated use & with entire satisfaction.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Kumar
But it is still existing in mass public to their repeated use & with entire satisfaction. And your point is?

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Rolfe
And your point is?

Rolfe.

In itself, it is a great proof.

[Rolfe]

A thousand lemmings can't be wrong?

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Well, let's try to drag this thread back on topic.

Cephalic phase. This really describes the anticipation of food. It can be triggered by sight or smell of food, or experiencing a stimulus the subject has learned will be followed by the appearance of food (like Pavlov's famous bell), or even just thinking about a meal which is soon to be served, and while I'm not sure if taste really counts in this category because the food is actually in the mouth by then, let's not be too rigid. The effects are that the gastrointestinal tract begins to prepare for a meal. Saliva is secreted (the mouth waters), and the stomach and to some extent the intestine become more active (the stomach may rumble).

So, cause and effect. Nothing mysterious, nothing peculiar.

I've been thinking, can the "cephalic phase" be triggered without the subject knowing about it? I don't think so. If you're not aware of the smell of the food, or you don't hear the dinner bell consciously, or you don't think about dinner, nothing happens.

So could some substance with some sort of tiny imperceptible shadow of a tasty molecule, something you're not aware of, make your mouth water? No, I don't think so. I'm open to other opinions here, but I don't think the concept of cephalic phase is capable of handling the idea of a stimulus which is below the level of perception. It's all about awareness.

And the effects? Watering mouth, rumbling stomach, and Hans has said it might even extend to the pancreas and insulin secretion (but I'm not sure about that and I'd welcome a reference). All, however, confined to the digestive process. As is only reasonable. Food is digested. It doesn't have anything to do with other parts of the body.

So could some subliminal process, triggered by a tiny imperceptible shadow of a molecule of something with no connection to food, have some effect on a completely unrelated part of the body? Why on earth should it? We're talking about the start of the digestive process, as the alimentary tract prepares itself to receive food. We know of nothing to suggest that it can work even in that respect unless the brain is aware of the stimulus, and we know of nothing to suggest that it works for anything other than gearing up the intestine to digest.

Kumar's idea is inventive, but it hasn't got off the starting block. Even as an explanation for low-potency homoeopathic remedies which contain trace amounts of the actual molecules, it doesn't look as if there's any way it's likely to fly. And for the ultramolar concentrations, you're right back with the problem that water has no memory and there's no way for any of the properties of the original mother tincture to be preserved in the final remedy.

Even if Kumar does occasionally state differently.

Still, it's a hypothesis. It's testable. Personally I wouldn't waste my time on something so tenuous, but if Kumar thinks it's a runner, he could certainly design a trial.

Now, will he? Or is anyone else prepared to offer him any suggestions?

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

Rolfe,

Thanks for informative posting. I anticipate for this type of postings.

Cephalic phase type effect is dependent on sensing. It can be any sense from any sensory organ of our body. It can be specific system effect as well as a systematic type effect. Even if, we don't know about the sense( say taste of any food) in advance, it will still trigger CPE immediately, when it is sensed. Homeopathic potentization process make it more palatable to be sensed. The quantity of substance to be sensed is not relevant , when we say & agree that CPE is triggered even by feeling, looking, hearing, seeing etc.--in which no quantity is involved. It indicate that CPE can be triggered even without any molecule ingested--then obiously, trace quantity is still more than the no molecule. Common/systematic CPE dependant just on potency(palatability) & other contents, will be there in 'higher potencies' of homeopathy.

[The Don]

Kumar,

You ARE aware that there are, on average, NO molecules of the "active" ingredient in a homoeopathic "remedy". As this is the case, how does the body "know" which molecule isn't in the solution and react to it ?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans, Rolfe,

I think you are bit deviated. You are mentioning differantly that: it is a placebo effect OR CPE already a known effect in science OR it is not an effect at all. Placebo is defined as a medication prescribed more for the mental relief of the patient than for its actual effect on a disorder (2) : an inert or innocuous substance used especially in controlled experiments testing the efficacy of another substance. But my concept of CPE has physiological effect/actual effect by taste/sense.

Rolfe,

"and if the claims aren't proved for long enough (150 years is long enough) then we are allowed to reject them."

But it is still existing in mass public to their repeated use & with entire satisfaction. There is no iron-clad "official" definition of placebo. Placebo is soemething that does not work directly. In a placebo-controlled test, it is every effect that is not due to the medicine under test, including various biases, etc.

But what does this matter for the discussion? What we are discussing is if your idea has merit, not what we want to call it. For all I care, you can call it anything you want.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Rolfe,

Thanks for informative posting. I anticipate for this type of postings.

Cephalic phase type effect is dependent on sensing. It can be any sense from any sensory organ of our body. It can be specific system effect as well as a systematic type effect.

[b]No, it is not dependent on sensing, it can come from pure, abstract thought.

Even if, we don't know about the sense( say taste of any food) in advance, it will still trigger CPE immediately, when it is sensed.

What makes you assume that? We might not be consciously aware of the stimulation, but it must be there.

Homeopathic potentization process make it more palatable to be sensed.

Does it? How does it do that? .... This is just speculation on your part, and it is not supported by anything, quite the contrary: Potentization being essentially a dilution process, it can be assumed to have exactly the opposite effect.

The quantity of substance to be sensed is not relevant , when we say & agree that CPE is triggered even by feeling, looking, hearing, seeing etc.--in which no quantity is involved.

That is not a valid conclusion. Even if it can be triggered by more abstract means, you cannot infer that if it is triggered by actual sense input then the strength of that input is not relevant. Those are simply different things.


It indicate that CPE can be triggered even without any molecule ingested--then obiously, trace quantity is still more than the no molecule.

No it does not indicate that. It indicates that CPE can be triggered in DIFFERENT WAYS:

1) Mental processes, like thinking of food. But there is a quantity requirement here, too. You must think about food with some intnesity for it to work.

2) Sensory input, tasting, smelling, seing food (or hearing a bell), but the sensory input must have sufficient strength, otherwise it would be triggered all the time; if you walk in a city, there wil lbe traces of food scent on the air nearly constantly.

Common/systematic CPE dependant just on potency(palatability) & other contents, will be there in 'higher potencies' of homeopathy.

Will be? What is your basis for that claim??

Apart from the unbased assumptions above, there are some fundamental flaws with your thesis:

1) CPE is not a universal mechanism, it works for some specific functions, like preparing for eating, sexual stimulation, etc. all mediated by different signalling substances in the body, but there is no reason to assume that it has any general validity for all kinds of body functions, and certainly not for diseases.

2) Your idea is in direct opposition to the whole idea of homeopathy. If homeopathic remedies worked via CPE, it would be a simple one medicine to one disease thing, and noting about like cures like, and holistic case taking. For instance smelling food for stimulating digestion will be antipathy, not homeopathy.

3) You are building on totally unfounded assumptions about the effect of the medicines on the body. In fact, we have no indication that different homeopathic medicines have different effects on the body, or indeed different from placebo. You cannot tell the difference between two different homeopathic medicines, except by reading the label.

4) CPE is a function of the healthy body. To assume that this can be transferred to treate diseases, which are results of the body malfunctioning, is not readily justified.
Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar


But it is still existing in mass public to their repeated use & with entire satisfaction. You can say the same about a lot of things. I can find you millions of people who are absolutely convinced that all other races are inferior to white people. Do you find that a valid concept too?

Hans

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Kumar

I would like to make explicit something that has been hovering around the edges of these recent posts.

There is a real physiological mechanism know as the cephalic phase in digestion. It relates to the physiological responses induced by mental expectation of the arrival of real food.

I agree that this process could also anticipate the arrival of a medicine, whether or not that medicine contains real drug or is just plain water labelled to convince the recipient.

You are going a very long way round to describe a potential mechanism of the placebo effect. The sceptics have no real problem with accepting that some responses to homeopathic remedies are psychosomatically induced (although most of us think that more of the reported responses are coincidence or outright fibbing). What we find no evidence for and plenty of evidence against is any notion that the remedy does anything in its own right.

In other words, the cephalic phase response to a homeopathic remedy would be identical to that to plain water. This is not mere speculation because if there was a real effect of homeopathic remedies by this mechanism then it would show up in trials. It does not.

So, this thread should be retitled a I have indicated.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Addendum:

You can even speculate that your CPE is specific in its pattern to a particular remedy. All I am saying is that it will be the same as the pattern produced in response to a bottle of plain water, provide it bears the same label as the remedy so the recipient thinks they are getting something real.

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MRC_Hans
No, it is not dependent on sensing, it can come from pure, abstract thought. What makes you assume that? We might not be consciously aware of the stimulation, but it must be there.


It is mentioned: "The cephalic phase continues until you actually start swallowing the food.
Gastric phase
Once food actually enters the stomach, the gastric phase has begun."

It suggests that cephalic phase is before stomach & after it next Gastric phase starts. Tasting any food is also a sensing.

Does it? How does it do that? .... This is just speculation on your part, and it is not supported by anything, quite the contrary: Potentization being essentially a dilution process, it can be assumed to have exactly the opposite effect.

Tasting a salt crystal & powder of salt can be checked. Tasting may be dependant on individual molecule or atomic/ionic basis

That is not a valid conclusion. Even if it can be triggered by more abstract means, you cannot infer that if it is triggered by actual sense input then the strength of that input is not relevant. Those are simply different things.
.No it does not indicate that. It indicates that CPE can be triggered in DIFFERENT WAYS:

1) Mental processes, like thinking of food. But there is a quantity requirement here, too. You must think about food with some intnesity for it to work.

2) Sensory input, tasting, smelling, seing food (or hearing a bell), but the sensory input must have sufficient strength, otherwise it would be triggered all the time; if you walk in a city, there wil lbe traces of food scent on the air nearly constantly.

It is to be tested or calculated that strength of one molecule is more that the strength of any sense which involves no molecule.



K:Common/systematic CPE dependant just on potency(palatability) & other contents, will be there in 'higher potencies' of homeopathy.

Will be? What is your basis for that claim??

Any common CPE by any type of sense which improve total body's strength which can take care any deep/chronic disorder should be possible with higher potencies. Silica+lactose(energy basis) should be able to do this. I mentioned this systematic effect somewhat like it:-
"The difference in different healing systems is that in the physical medication, one could make an incorrect choice of medicine, dose or potency but in Reiki, there are no such things like over-dosing or giving wrong medicine etc. Reiki energy with its supreme intelligence goes only to the benefit of the recipient and makes no mistake.The quantity of energy[& where] to flow is decided by Supreme and needs of the individual. If an individual needs less, it will flow less and if he/she needs more, it will be more."

It shows a systematic type/common effect.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Apart from the unbased assumptions above, there are some fundamental flaws with your thesis:

1) CPE is not a universal mechanism, it works for some specific functions, like preparing for eating, sexual stimulation, etc. all mediated by different signalling substances in the body, but there is no reason to assume that it has any general validity for all kinds of body functions, and certainly not for diseases.

I described universal/systematic mechnism as above.

2) Your idea is in direct opposition to the whole idea of homeopathy. If homeopathic remedies worked via CPE, it would be a simple one medicine to one disease thing, and noting about like cures like, and holistic case taking. For instance smelling food for stimulating digestion will be antipathy, not homeopathy.

We have to find out CPE on applying any homogenous & hetrogenous remedy, differantly as both can produce CPE. How it could be antipathy?

3) You are building on totally unfounded assumptions about the effect of the medicines on the body. In fact, we have no indication that different homeopathic medicines have different effects on the body, or indeed different from placebo. You cannot tell the difference between two different homeopathic medicines, except by reading the label.

More research & clinical studies should be taken on the basis of CPE. This should be able to justify it.

4) CPE is a function of the healthy body. To assume that this can be transferred to treate diseases, which are results of the body malfunctioning, is not readily justified.
Hans

CPE 'with consumption' can be a function of healthy body but 'ust tasting or sensing without consumption' can be a function of body malfunctioning.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
You can say the same about a lot of things. I can find you millions of people who are absolutely convinced that all other races are inferior to white people. Do you find that a valid concept too?

Hans But other therapies are just similarily accepted by both white & other races.;) Day(white) can be thought as better than night even though both come under one name i.e."DAY". It is just a visuality differance.:D

[The Don]

Kumar,

You did get the point of MRC_Hans' post ? Just because lots of people believe something does not make it so.

In order to be considered as fact, independent, objective, evidence needs to be presented. To date, this has not been the case

[MRC_Hans]

Triple quoting. My first entries, sometimes combined with even earlier by Kumar, in bold, Kumar in normal, anf my new in blue


No, it is not dependent on sensing, it can come from pure, abstract thought. What makes you assume that? We might not be consciously aware of the stimulation, but it must be there.


It is mentioned: "The cephalic phase continues until you actually start swallowing the food.
Gastric phase
Once food actually enters the stomach, the gastric phase has begun."

That does not answer my questions.

It suggests that cephalic phase is before stomach & after it next Gastric phase starts. Tasting any food is also a sensing.

Does it? How does it do that? .... This is just speculation on your part, and it is not supported by anything, quite the contrary: Potentization being essentially a dilution process, it can be assumed to have exactly the opposite effect.

Tasting a salt crystal & powder of salt can be checked. Tasting may be dependant on individual molecule or atomic/ionic basis

How does that answer my question?

That is not a valid conclusion. Even if it can be triggered by more abstract means, you cannot infer that if it is triggered by actual sense input then the strength of that input is not relevant. Those are simply different things.
.No it does not indicate that. It indicates that CPE can be triggered in DIFFERENT WAYS:

1) Mental processes, like thinking of food. But there is a quantity requirement here, too. You must think about food with some intnesity for it to work.

2) Sensory input, tasting, smelling, seing food (or hearing a bell), but the sensory input must have sufficient strength, otherwise it would be triggered all the time; if you walk in a city, there wil lbe traces of food scent on the air nearly constantly.

It is to be tested or calculated that strength of one molecule is more that the strength of any sense which involves no molecule.

Calculated how? Does the sigh of a delicious meal affect you less than one molecule of a delicious meal :rolleyes:?

K:Common/systematic CPE dependant just on potency(palatability) & other contents, will be there in 'higher potencies' of homeopathy.

Will be? What is your basis for that claim??

Any common CPE by any type of sense which improve total body's strength which can take care any deep/chronic disorder should be possible with higher potencies.

But there ARE no common CPE! It is a bunch of independent, quite specific reactions. You cannot assume that a general mechanism exists

Silica+lactose(energy basis) should be able to do this.

Energy basis? What is energy basis?? Should be able? Based on what? You are just speculating wildly.

I mentioned this systematic effect somewhat like it:-
"The difference in different healing systems is that in the physical medication, one could make an incorrect choice of medicine, dose or potency but in Reiki, there are no such things like over-dosing or giving wrong medicine etc. Reiki energy with its supreme intelligence goes only to the benefit of the recipient and makes no mistake.The quantity of energy[& where] to flow is decided by Supreme and needs of the individual. If an individual needs less, it will flow less and if he/she needs more, it will be more."

Total babble. Reiki intelligent energy? I don't suppose you have any evidence for that (except for being ancient and popular :rolleyes: )?

It shows a systematic type/common effect.

No, you speculate about it. It does not show anything.

Apart from the unbased assumptions above, there are some fundamental flaws with your thesis:

1) CPE is not a universal mechanism, it works for some specific functions, like preparing for eating, sexual stimulation, etc. all mediated by different signalling substances in the body, but there is no reason to assume that it has any general validity for all kinds of body functions, and certainly not for diseases.

I described universal/systematic mechnism as above.

I have news for you, Kumar: You describing your speculations is not evidence for anything. Especially not when the internal logic is flawed.

2) Your idea is in direct opposition to the whole idea of homeopathy. If homeopathic remedies worked via CPE, it would be a simple one medicine to one disease thing, and noting about like cures like, and holistic case taking. For instance smelling food for stimulating digestion will be antipathy, not homeopathy.

We have to find out CPE on applying any homogenous & hetrogenous remedy, differantly as both can produce CPE. How it could be antipathy?

No we don't know if they can produce CPE. The fact that CPE exists does not mean you can attribute it to anything you like.

3) You are building on totally unfounded assumptions about the effect of the medicines on the body. In fact, we have no indication that different homeopathic medicines have different effects on the body, or indeed different from placebo. You cannot tell the difference between two different homeopathic medicines, except by reading the label.

More research & clinical studies should be taken on the basis of CPE. This should be able to justify it.

Well, you go ahead and research, but it is not usual to spend ressoures on research that does not have any theoretical basis, so you might have problems with funding.

4) CPE is a function of the healthy body. To assume that this can be transferred to treate diseases, which are results of the body malfunctioning, is not readily justified.
Hans

CPE 'with consumption' can be a function of healthy body but 'ust tasting or sensing without consumption' can be a function of body malfunctioning. [/B]

More empty speculation

Kumar, I'm running out of patience here. You are not arguing, you have made a conclusion, and now you are looking desperately for any straw that might keep it floating.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
You can say the same about a lot of things. I can find you millions of people who are absolutely convinced that all other races are inferior to white people. Do you find that a valid concept too?

Hans
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But other therapies are just similarily accepted by both white & other races. Day(white) can be thought as better than night even though both come under one name i.e."DAY". It is just a visuality differance. Noo, no. You can't get away with that nonsense.

You claim that it is strong evidence for homeopahty etc. that they are ancient and popular, and you have presented that claim often. I now present you with something else that is ancient and popular, namely the notion that white people are superiour to other races. Do you accept this ancient and popular notion, yes or no?

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Addendum:

You can even speculate that your CPE is specific in its pattern to a particular remedy. All I am saying is that it will be the same as the pattern produced in response to a bottle of plain water, provide it bears the same label as the remedy so the recipient thinks they are getting something real.

BSM, thanks for good posting. Apperantly, if homeopathic remedies taste like water it will show plain water type CPE. But truely, it will taste/sensed differantly, as I indicated previously. We may or may not recognize particular taste/sense accordingly, but our body will recognize the same accordingly(as spritually we are somewhat slept:D). We should study, consider & pursue this indication/concept for furthur research as it may serve substancially to humanity with a small cost. I think, we should not be the looser as I see no other possible/logical alternative, as yet.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar


BSM, thanks for good posting. Apperantly, if homeopathic remedies taste like water it will show plain water type CPE. But tuely, it will taste/sensed differantly, as I indicated previously. We may or may not recognize particular taste/sense acordingly, but our body will recognize the same acordingly. We should study,consider & pursue this indication for furthur research as it may serve substancially to humanity with a small cost. I think we should not be the looser as I see no other possible/logical alternative, as yet. I see another, VERY logical alternative: It does not work at all.

You know, if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and tastes like a duck, it is probably a duck.

Homeopathic remedies look like water, taste like water, have same chemical composition as water, and nobody has been able to come up with a plausible explanation on how it should be anything but water. Thus we can safely assume it IS water, pending new evidence to the contrary.

(Note: If the actual remedy is based on alcohol or lactose, please replace "water" in the text above, with "alcohol" or "lactose" as appropriate, thank you.)

Hans

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Kumar
But truely, it will taste/sensed differantly, as I indicated previously. We may or may not recognize particular taste/sense accordingly, but our body will recognize the same accordingly....Well, this is related to the million dollar challenge. If you can prove this is the case, you can win the money.

How do you propose to do that?

Kumar, there's no use your saying "I think it works like that, now you guys go and research it for me." We think your ideas are fanciful in the extreme, and we're unlikely to waste any time researching them. If you think you're really on to something, you have to get some preliminary data at least to show that it's not just a wild speculation.

However, as you've thrown one wild speculation after another at us since the day you first appeared in the forum, you must see that we're not likely to view this one any differently. Unless you can provide some of that pesky evidence, that is.

Rolfe.

[The Don]

Originally posted by Kumar
Apperantly, if homeopathic remedies taste like water it will show plain water type CPE.
I though that CPE didn't even erquire tasting, I thought that it was the anticipation of consumption which could set the digestive wheels in motion
Originally posted by Kumar
But truely, it will taste/sensed differantly, as I indicated previously.
Do you claim that you can taste the difference between plain water and plain water without (on average) any molecules of a particular substance ?

Your previous indication is without basis in science
Originally posted by Kumar
We may or may not recognize particular taste/sense accordingly, but our body will recognize the same accordingly(as spritually we are somewhat slept:D).
You have absolutely no evidence for this mechanism
Originally posted by Kumar
We should study, consider & pursue this indication/concept for furthur research as it may serve substancially to humanity with a small cost.
There is continuing (continual ?) research into this kind of thing. To date the studies show that homoeopathy has no effect (beyond the placebo effect - which i know you either don't understand or wilfully misrepresent)
Originally posted by Kumar
I think, we should not be the looser as I see no other possible/logical alternative, as yet.
The logical alternatuve is to research whether there is any effect at all before investing time and resources in a search for the mechanism by which a non-existent effect occurs

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Noo, no. You can't get away with that nonsense.

[b]I now present you with something else that is ancient and popular, namely the notion that white people are superiour to other races. Do you accept this ancient and popular notion, yes or no?

Hans

But 'Superiour' in what sense? In some sense they can be like in white colour in other sense they can't be like black colour.

Reply for your previuos posting:-

Sense:- the sensation(a mental process as seeing, hearing, or smelling, due to immediate bodily stimulation often as distinguished from awareness of the process) that results when taste buds in the tongue and throat convey information about the chemical composition of a soluble stimulus.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
But 'Superiour' in what sense? In some sense they can be like in white colour in other sense they can't be like black colour.

You are evading. Come on, it is simple: Do you accept that the fact that the idea is ancient and popular is good evidence that the white race is superiour? I'm not asking about your opinion on the sublect, I am just asking if you think the evidende is valid. Just answer yes or no.

Reply for your previuos posting:-

Sense:- the sensation that results when taste buds in the tongue and throat convey information about the chemical composition of a soluble stimulus.

Uhh, and? Oh, I think I see where you are heading: That information from the taste buds (or scent receptors) is generated by the physical interaction between the receptors and molecules of the sensed substance. It takes a certain amount of molecules to generate the sensation, and the more molecules, the stronger the sensation.

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
I see another, VERY logical alternative: It does not work at all.

You know, if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and tastes like a duck, it is probably a duck.

Homeopathic remedies look like water, taste like water, have same chemical composition as water, and nobody has been able to come up with a plausible explanation on how it should be anything but water. Thus we can safely assume it IS water, pending new evidence to the contrary.

(Note: If the actual remedy is based on alcohol or lactose, please replace "water" in the text above, with "alcohol" or "lactose" as appropriate, thank you.)

Hans

Mr. Hans,

Sorry, I am repeating.:D

I too see another, VERY logical alternative: It does show at all.

Earth was said as flat, it looks to us as flat, for practical purposes it is flat--why don't you say it then as flat??????

[The Don]

Originally posted by Kumar
Earth was said as flat, it looks to us as flat, for practical purposes it is flat--why don't you say it then as flat??????
Because there is credible, independently verified evidence to the contrary. But of course we've been over thsi ground before (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30034&highlight=earth+flat)

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar


Mr. Hans,

Sorry, I am repeating.:D

I too see another, VERY logical alternative: It does show at all.

Earth was said as flat, it looks to us as flat, for practical purposes it is flat--why don't you say it then as flat?????? Ahh, but this ancient and popular idea (flat earth) is NOT to your liking?

Earth does not look like it is flat, and it does not work as if it is flat, if you care to look.

Look, you have a thesis. You cannot support it with evidence. End of story. And no, not even logically can you support it.

Hans

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Do you accept that the fact that the idea is ancient and popular is good evidence that the white race is superiour?

If it is a common(all communaties) & ancient belief than the awnser can be 'yes' but if it is a saying of just whites then awnser can also be 'no'. However I have to study the physiologica technicallities/ possibilities to this effect.


It takes a certain amount of molecules to generate the sensation, and the more molecules, the stronger the sensation.

It is not necessary. It may depend on type of substance, An inert substance(sand or stone) may not trigger CPE, but in homeopathic smaller dose it may trigger.

Don, can't I show several sites indicating their effectiveness? Just few experiments can't deny the vast tried & observed effects.

[The Don]

Originally posted by Kumar Don, can't I show several sites indicating their effectiveness? Just few experiments can't deny the vast tried & observed effects. [/B]
Errrr Yes they can. Not only that but the experiments come up with the only credible means by which homoeopathic "remedies" effect a "cure".

And that of course would be the placebo effect.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Rolfe
However, as you've thrown one wild speculation after another at us since the day you first appeared in the forum, you must see that we're not likely to view this one any differently. Unless you can provide some of that pesky evidence, that is.

Rolfe.

But, initially, you have to be agreed for that ,it is at least a SEED.

[The Don]

Originally posted by Kumar
But, initially, you have to be agreed for that ,it is at least a SEED.
In the same way that "I think that the common cold is caused by the number seventy-three" is a seed

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Do you accept that the fact that the idea is ancient and popular is good evidence that the white race is superiour?

If it is a common(all communaties) & ancient belief than the awnser can be 'yes' but if it is a saying of just whites then awnser can also be 'no'. However I have to study the physiologica technicallities/ possibilities to this effect.

In other words, you admit that common and ancient in itself is not evidence. It needs to agree with your opinion, too ;)


It takes a certain amount of molecules to generate the sensation, and the more molecules, the stronger the sensation.

It is not necessary. It may depend on type of substance, An inert substance(sand or stone) may not trigger CPE, but in homeopathic smaller dose it may trigger.

Yes, it is necessary. No, there is no reason t othink that homeopathic doses may trigger, that is just speculation. You are just making ad hoc theories.

Don, can't I show several sites indicating their effectiveness? Just few experiments can't deny the vast tried & observed effects.

No, but you can show several sites CLAIMING their effectiveness. None of them has any EVIDENCE. And, yes, sometimes experimental evidence does wipe out old beliefs. Think aircraft: At some point it was a very well esablished belief that objects heavier than air could not fly. Experiments showed otherwise.

Hans

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Kumar
But, initially, you have to be agreed for that ,it is at least a SEED. I said it was a hypothesis. It's your hypothesis. Personally I think it's a flight of fancy and I wouldn't waste five minutes of my time on it.

If you think it is a reasonable hypothesis, it is up to you to design a suitable test, do it, and provide us with some evidence that it may be a valid hypothesis.

Until then, it's no more than hot air.

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

I can't deny an observed ancient mentioning. White or others may not be an observed ancient mentioning otherwise all races should have accepted it like homeopathy is accepted by some people of all races or 'cosmopolitin'. But considering some observations, I do not reject it completely as yet. It can be alike superiority of male or female.

And, yes, sometimes experimental evidence does wipe out old beliefs. Think aircraft: At some point it was a very well esablished belief that objects heavier than air could not fly. Experiments showed otherwise

Yes, but it is sometimes not everytime. 'Sometimes' also may still remain open, as you indicates the possible changes in modren theories. Ancient mentionings do indicate flying, aircrafte etc. even more than we found as yet.;)

[Zep]

Originally posted by Kumar


Mr. Hans,

Sorry, I am repeating.:D

I too see another, VERY logical alternative: It does show at all.

Earth was said as flat, it looks to us as flat, for practical purposes it is flat--why don't you say it then as flat?????? It has NEVER looked flat to me. Even when I was a child, it looked like it had a curve in it. Plain observation by a curious child has just destroyed your argument..

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zep
It has NEVER looked flat to me. Even when I was a child, it looked like it had a curve in it. Plain observation by a curious child has just destroyed your argument..

Alike you look CPE, homeopathy etc. Now I am sure about your vision.:D

[The Don]

Originally posted by Kumar
Alike you look CPE, homeopathy etc. Now I am sure about your vision.:D
Are we absolutely sure Kumar isn't Yoda. Same syntax employing seems he.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar


BSM, thanks for good posting. Apperantly, if homeopathic remedies taste like water it will show plain water type CPE.

And placebo-controlled studies consistently show that homeopathic remedies are dealt with by the body no differently than water, and that, my friend, is the end of this story.


This fact cuts across all of your speculations and should tell you just to stop because there is no real effect to explain. There is only your fixed belief and your attempts to bend scientific ideas to work with your fixed belief in spite of the obvious fact that it cannot be done due to your fixed belief being in error.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey


And placebo-controlled studies consistently show that homeopathic remedies are dealt with by the body no differently than water, and that, my friend, is the end of this story.


This fact cuts across all of your speculations and should tell you just to stop because there is no real effect to explain. There is only your fixed belief and your attempts to bend scientific ideas to work with your fixed belief in spite of the obvious fact that it cannot be done due to your fixed belief being in error. BSM,

You have not quoted my full posting which makes completely differant sense. I repeat:-

"BSM, thanks for good posting. Apperantly, if homeopathic remedies taste like water it will show plain water type CPE. But truely, it will taste/sensed differantly, as I indicated previously. We may or may not recognize particular taste/sense accordingly, but our body will recognize the same accordingly(as spritually we are somewhat slept). We should study, consider & pursue this indication/concept for furthur research as it may serve substancially to humanity with a small cost. I think, we should not be the looser as I see no other possible/logical alternative, as yet."

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
BSM,

*snip*
"BSM, thanks for good posting. Apperantly, if homeopathic remedies taste like water it will show plain water type CPE. But truely, it will taste/sensed differantly, as I indicated previously. We may or may not recognize particular taste/sense accordingly, but our body will recognize the same accordingly(as spritually we are somewhat slept). We should study, consider & pursue this indication/concept for furthur research as it may serve substancially to humanity with a small cost. I think, we should not be the looser as I see no other possible/logical alternative, as yet."

In other words, Homeopathic remedies might taste differently from water (although nobody has ever noticed), and this effect might cause some CPE effect (although nobody has ever found evidence for this), and this might explain SOME of the effects of homeopathy.

Mmmm, why am I not exited by this theory? :rolleyes:

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans


Mmmm, why am I not exited by this theory? :rolleyes:

Hans

In rejecting the CPE, it might be due to loosing your hunger for CPE.:p It is said that " every action there is equal & opposite reaction" or "one who dig pit........";)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
BSM,

You have not quoted my full posting which makes completely differant sense. I repeat:-

"BSM, thanks for good posting. Apperantly, if homeopathic remedies taste like water it will show plain water type CPE. But truely, it will taste/sensed differantly, as I indicated previously. We may or may not recognize particular taste/sense accordingly, but our body will recognize the same accordingly(as spritually we are somewhat slept). We should study, consider & pursue this indication/concept for furthur research as it may serve substancially to humanity with a small cost. I think, we should not be the looser as I see no other possible/logical alternative, as yet."

Of course what I said was different from what you said.

I was explaining that what you were saying is wrong and why we know it is wrong.

"I see no other possible/logical alternative, as yet"

The logical and only alternative is that your ideas are wrong. This is what we have been showing you.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans

Mmmm, why am I not exited by this theory?

Exited by this theory? Are we back onto the subject of euthanasia by homeopathy again? ;)

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar


In rejecting the CPE, it might be due to loosing your hunger for CPE.:p It is said that " every action there is equal & opposite reaction" or "one who dig pit........";) Sorry, pal, but your humor is not much better than your logic.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey


Exited by this theory? Are we back onto the subject of euthanasia by homeopathy again? ;) Excited. Yeah just you go on bashing a poor foreigner who has to make it in your language because you don't know mine ;).

Hans

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Excited. Yeah just you go on bashing a poor foreigner who has to make it in your language because you don't know mine ;).

Hans

Well, we have to keep flying the flag right up until the point at which France grind our football team into the turf in Portugal.

[Kumar]

"Happy Ending" thanks.:) :D