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Zombified
6th June 2004, 12:57 PM
I’ve got another review of one of the papers Rolfe supplied dealing with homeopathy’s abuse of quantum mechanics.

O. Weingartner, an employee of German homeopathic company Dr. Reckeweg (http://www.reckeweg.de/frames.php) is the author of a paper entitled ‘What is the therapeutically active ingredient of homeopathic potencies?’ (link from Rolfe (http://vetlab.co.uk/voodoo/weingartner.pdf) ) which purports to apply weak quantum theory (http://www.igpp.de/english/tda/pdf/wqt.pdf) (my review (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41223)) to explaining the operation of homeopathic remedies diluted beyond the limit of Avogadro’s number. Weingartner suggests that homeopathic remedies exploit quantum mechanical correlations within the remedy.

Weingartner attempts to apply weak quantum theory to show that the active ingredient involves spin correlations between all the “particles” involved in the dilution process.

Weingartner is rather unclear in his use of the term “particle”; at some point he refers to “atoms or molecules” in the remedy and that’s as precise as he’s willing to be. He keeps referring to spin correlation, however, and suggests using NMR to test the theory, which suggests that either (a) it’s nuclear spins which are key or (b) Weingartner doesn’t know what NMR is.

Anyway, Weingartner’s explanation uses a simple model of dilution, where an original remedy is represented by a box B<sub>0</sub>, then diluted and thoroughly mixed in a larger box of solvent B<sub>0</sub>, and so on up to B<sub>N</sub>, the box that represents the solvent required to dilute the entire remedy to the required potency, defined by volume. In a 100X remedy, B<sub>100</sub> would presumably be 10<sup>100</sup> times the volume of B<sub>0</sub>. Weingartner suggests this model so that all the molecules of the active ingredient are actually present, although any given subvolume of size B<sub>0</sub> is admittedly unlikely to contain any.

Weingartner’s “theory” considers spin coupling between all the “particles,” whatever they are, in this box B<sub>N</sub>. First of all, it’s very unclear why weak quantum theory is used at all here: conventional quantum theory is perfect for dealing with angular momentum. He refers to an “appendix” entitled “Summary of the proof” for the actual details of this. The “proof” is that Weingartner’s definition of spin operators satisfies the axioms of weak quantum theory, and is carried out by the time-honored procedure of vigorous hand-waving. Weingartner’s choice of observable doesn’t even make sense – he defines them as “continuous deformations” of spin configurations, which doesn’t have much to do with measuring the spins themselves.

Weingartner then asks “whether there is a particular sense in which these spin configurations are stable in time.” In attempting to answer this question, Weingartner actually misapplies his own theory! He defines “stability in time” by whether the commutator between two observables evaluates to the same number at different times. (The commutator [A,B] is the difference AB-BA, not necessarily zero because operators do not commute.) This is nonsense for several reasons: in WQT the commutator is simply not defined, because the theory doesn’t define addition (or subtraction) of operators – this is explicit in the original WQT paper. Second, the commutator defines a relationship between two operators – how does one determine whether a single observable is time-varying? Also, the commutator is itself an operator, not a number. Finally, it’s incompatible with the original quantum theory WQT is supposedly based on, where <del>h</del> dA/dt = i[H,A], where H is a particular observable called the Hamiltonian, generally the total energy of the system. An observable is constant only if it commutes with the Hamiltonian, e.g. HA = AH.

Weingartner gives no reason why his suggested formula ought to predict constant observables, neither theoretical motivation nor applications to experimental situations. He’s just pulled it out of his butt.

Weingartner concludes by suggesting that spin entanglement be investigated by NMR. But what are investigators supposed to look for? Weingartner has no made no predictions about what investigators ought to see.

This paper produces no predictions, no theory that could produce a prediction and in fact the “theory” in this paper doesn’t even make sense (the original WQT theory was at least logically consistent, if useless). He never attempts to apply conventional quantum mechanics, which is very good at dealing with spin. He gives no reason why spin correlations are expected in homeopathic remedies, nor why they would be therapeutically active even if they did exist. His argument that they could last for longer than a fraction of a second even if they did exist is incoherent.

Basically, this paper neither explains homeopathy nor sheds any light on where to look further for results.

Badly Shaved Monkey
7th June 2004, 04:53 AM
Do you think it might be interesting to try to get responses to this demolition job from the authors?

Do they appear to be physicists abusing their own subject or are they enthusiastically inept amateurs?

Rolfe
7th June 2004, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Do you think it might be interesting to try to get responses to this demolition job from the authors?

Do they appear to be physicists abusing their own subject or are they enthusiastically inept amateurs? One of the authors of the Atmanspacher paper gives his address as the Max Planck Institute, which I find screamingly funny.

Oh, it's Atmanspacher himself - here are all the addresses of the authors.<CENTER>Harald Atmanspacher
Institut f&uuml;r Grenzgebiete der Psychologie und Psychohygiene
Wilhelmstr. 3a, D–79098 Freiburg;
Max-Planck-Institut f&uuml;r extraterrestrische Physik
D–85740 Garching

Hartmann R&ouml;mer
Institut f&uuml;r Physik, Universit&auml;t Freiburg
Hermann-Herder-Str. 3, D–79104 Freiburg

Harald Walach
Institut f&uuml;r Umweltmedizin und Krankenhaushygiene,
Universit&auml;tsklinikum Freiburg
Hugstetterstr. 55, D–79106 Freiburg</CENTER>After I read Walach's "Magic of Signs" paper I was inspired to email him to ask if he was actually serious, or if it was all an amazingly elaborate spoof. I got a reply -it is neither an irony nor is it a spoof or whatever you might think it is. It is quite serious, and further advanced in theorizing as some people realize, plus backed by new, not yet published data. I attach both the very theoretical foundation for it, plus a somewhat more adapted one, which has just been published in our journal "Forschende Komplementärmedizin".
Best
harald walachWhen one of the attached papers was published, it made the Guardian's Bad Science column.

I'm extremely grateful to Zombified for going through these papers. They are intended to bamboozle biological scientists into silence, because they don't usually understand what's being said well enough to refute it, and are just left stammering "I'm sure it's all baloney." So, once Zombified has been through the lot, I hope I can persuade him to write a summary critique of the whole concept. I can promise him web space for it!

Rolfe.

Badly Shaved Monkey
7th June 2004, 06:27 AM
Might it make it's way onto the homeopathy forums?

Rolfe
7th June 2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Might it make it's way onto the homeopathy forums? You know perfectly well where I'll post it, if Zombified agrees!

Rolfe, VetFFVoo.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
7th June 2004, 01:12 PM
Say, why do you think these supposedly real scientists even care about supporting homeopathy?

~~ Paul

Rolfe
7th June 2004, 01:30 PM
Harald Walach is a fanatically committed homoeopath. Funnily enough, he has also authored some very good papers doing an excellent job of testing out homoeopathic treatments, with resoundingly null results. For example (http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band46/b46-7.html).

Unfortunately he's so fanatically committed that he's now trying to find a reason why homoeopathy doesn't work in blind trials and yet still (allegedly) works in the clinic.

He's doing better at it than Bach, I'll say that for him.

Rolfe.

Zombified
7th June 2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Rolfe
I'm extremely grateful to Zombified for going through these papers.That's very kind.

There's another problem that I didn't really get into with this paper, but I think it illustrates Weingartner's level of familiarity with quantum mechanics. In his 'proof' that his definition of operators satisfies the WQT axioms, he states that spin measurement outcomes are either +1 or -1. I presume he got this idea from "spin up" and "spin down" for electrons, which are spin-1/2 particles and have two possible values of angular momentum along a given axis.

However, not all particles are spin-1/2 particles. Atoms may have a total angular momentum that could be 0, 1/2, 1, 3/2, etc, depending on how their nuclear, electronic, and orbital angular momenta add up. The angular momentum along a particular axis ranges in integer steps, so for example an atom with total angular momentum number 1 could be in a +1, 0, or -1 state along a given axis, three possible values.

Again, Weingartner is unclear whether the particles in question are atoms or molecules, but if molecules, then there's also angular momentum in the rotation of the molecules. This will in general be a nonzero integer (integer because its a rotation rather than intrinsic, and nonzero because its not at absolute zero), and will have an odd number of possible outcomes along a given axis. Actually, in general there will also be a range of possible total angular momenta.

Once again I wonder why use WQT for spin correlations since normal quantum mechanics works just fine.

I think I could do a summary later on when I get through the bunch. I expect I'm going to keep finding similar patterns in all of these papers: they start with discussion of conventional theory, then make an analogy to a theory of their own, but they never develop their theory far enough to make any meaningful prediction, and frequently go off the rails in the process. The papers seem to end with a lot of analogy and handwaving and no actual results.

I have been tempted to ask Weingartner a few questions...

Badly Shaved Monkey
7th June 2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Zombified
I have been tempted to ask Weingartner a few questions...


...[fixes him with mad staring eyes]....Give in to that temptation.......

Rolfe
7th June 2004, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
...[fixes him with mad staring eyes]....Give in to that temptation....... There doesn't seem to be a smilie here of someone on their knees begging, but there should be....

Look, I emailed Walach, you can surely do no less.

Rolfe.

Zombified
10th June 2004, 10:01 AM
I sent him a couple of questions. No reply yet, though it hasn't been long.

I'd really like to know what he has to say about distinguishing remedies from raw solvent by NMR...

Rolfe
10th June 2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Zombified
I'd really like to know what he has to say about distinguishing remedies from raw solvent by NMR... Me too! :D

Rolfe.

Zombified
10th June 2004, 10:58 AM
I turned up a couple of references to NMR examinations of homeopathic remedies but could not find the actual papers. Do you know where this can be found?

Nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) studies of homeopathic solutions,
S Aabel, S Fossheim and F Rise,
British Homeopathic Journal (2001) 90, 14-20

Apparently these folks were unable to detect any differences between controls and remedies, but refers to some earlier studies that did claim to see a difference.

Zombified
14th June 2004, 11:26 AM
Not much of an update: Weingartner has not replied to my email.

Suezoled
14th June 2004, 12:57 PM
Zombified...have a root beer. :D

Zombified
14th June 2004, 09:48 PM
You know... I think I'll do that!

Quasi
15th June 2004, 01:19 AM
Good thread.

If he is talking about NMR, or more specifically H' NMR, then he is describing 1/2 spin. However, the coupling should be glaringly obvious in the experiment as protons give off a really good signal. Unless of course, he is using a broad band probe and left decoupling on!

EHocking
15th June 2004, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by Zombified
I turned up a couple of references to NMR examinations of homeopathic remedies but could not find the actual papers. Do you know where this can be found?

Nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) studies of homeopathic solutions,
S Aabel, S Fossheim and F Rise,
British Homeopathic Journal (2001) 90, 14-20

Apparently these folks were unable to detect any differences between controls and remedies, but refers to some earlier studies that did claim to see a difference.
Abstract at PubMed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11212083

Do you read German? As there appears to be a PDF of the study here:
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowPDF&ProduktNr=224242&Ausgabe=228274&ArtikelNr=57215&filename=57215.pdf