evildave
13th March 2003, 08:02 PM
I received this in the email this morning.
I sent this back to all the original recipients.
My comments appear between dashes.
-----------------------------------
I believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for not singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with Darwin but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution. Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game.
-----------------------------------
OK, first little point: The Stadium and School Prayer
http://archive.aclu.org/clis/schoolprayer.html
http://archive.aclu.org/court/prayer.html
The ACLU is the one who carried these lawsuits forward. Not “atheists”. These kinds of lawsuits generally begin when the “wrong kind of” Christian offers a prayer, and other Christians take offense.
In the case of the stadium incident, people who did not participate in the prayer were OPENLY HARRASSED by their Christian peers.
The actual case story about what went on at the event that got the story started.
http://archive.aclu.org/court/santafe.html#statement
"
1. The Litigation. Plaintiffs are two mothers and their children who objected to persistent imposition of sectarian religious practices in the public schools of Santa Fe, Texas. The district court found a history of distinctively Christian prayer at graduation, prayer before every football and baseball game, school selection of the clergyman to conduct a subsidized baccalaureate service, and on-campus distribution of Bibles by the Gideons. The court further found that Santa Fe had encouraged and preferred religion clubs over other clubs and that multiple teachers had promoted their own religious views in the classroom. One teacher, after distributing flyers for a Baptist revival meeting to his class and discovering in the ensuing conversation that one of his students is Mormon, "launched into a diatribe about the non-Christian, cult-like nature of Mormonism, and its general evils." Pet. App. A4.(1)
The district court found that "these incidents occurred amidst the School District's repeated tolerance of similar activities and oftentimes with the awareness and explicit approval of the School District," and that "these incidents therefore reflect the actual policies of the School District at that time, irrespective of any applicable written policies which may have been in place." Pet. App. E2 n.2.(2)
"
So, what we have is a Baptist versus Mormon conflict that started the mess.
Furthermore, in school you are still free to pray on your own. The only thing the law says is you can't have the SCHOOL officially lead a prayer. If you want to talk to your hands over your food, it's fine with everyone. If you want to grab the microphone, stand behind a podium and tell everyone to drop everything and pray, that's not fine. The distinction isn't a very complex one, but some people don't seem to “get it”.
-----------------------------------
"But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles. And we are in the Bible Belt. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1.
So what would you expect -- somebody chanting Hare Krishna?
If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer.
If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.
If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would hear someone pray to Buddha.
And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in Rome...
Appeal to Popularity.
"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.
-----------------------------------
Actually, as already demonstrated, it's about ANY other religious groups being persecuted at state-run events. And in the event that sparked the lawsuit, the non-Baptists were singled out and humiliated.
-----------------------------------
Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me. The silent majority has been silent too long... it's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want... ...it is time the majority rules!! It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray..you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right....but by golly you are no longer going to take our rights away...we are fighting back... and we WILL WIN! After all, the God you have the right to denounce, is on our side!!
God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him...
God bless America, despite all her faults.. still the greatest nation of all.....
God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God...
May 2003 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions.
Keep looking up......In God WE Trust
-----------------------------------
So, as far as the writer is concerned, EVERY atheist is incapable of tolerating even seconds of Christian exposure, while Christians are the model of tolerance and understanding? And all things wrong in the country are because of the unreligious?
Well, you know what? I'm sick and tired of this endless ad-hominem being cast at the unreligious. Maybe I'll take this advice and not be silent.
I don't believe in any gods. I can't help it. I can't start honestly believing in them any more than many of you can stop believing in them. If you consider yourself monotheistic, then I only dismiss one god more than you. I've lived my life generally avoiding the topic of religion for the simple reason that many people appear to believe that not being Christian is a “Bad Thing”, and that not having any religion at all is even worse. What this means is every time the Jehova's Witnesses, the Mormons, or any of the many fruity flavors of born-again fundies corner me in some public place, I know from experience it will be that much worse when I tell them that I don't consider any “Testament” to be an authoritative source of “truth”, and don't believe in their Christ, their God or their book. I also know that they approach other Christians in this manner. Usually, I grin and bear it. I'm even nice and polite to the Jehova's Witnesses (and others) who come to my door. How many of you can say that? When people get that “look” on their face and say something like “I'll pray for you!” and walk quickly away like they expect lightning to come down from the sky, I know I've just been socially chastised. Typically for nothing more than mentioning I don't attend church.
Most Christians I know are good people. I conclude this because most people I know are good people, and most people I am exposed to regularly are Christians. I am polite enough not to bring religion arbitrarily into a discussion. I will bow in silence at the dinner table, or sit quietly for moments of silence, or politely do whatever my hosts do as their regular rituals require when visiting. I just don't happen to believe in any of it as coming from “almighty” sources.
But maybe I shouldn't bend over and “take it” when someone is arbitrarily stirring up hatred that is eventually focused towards me.
Take that original letter and replace “atheist” with “Jew”, or “Hindu”, or “Muslim” or even "Mormon". Then ask yourself again why the ACLU takes these cases.
Oh, and go ahead and send this rebuttal to all the folks you know, if you like. Just to be "fair".
I sent this back to all the original recipients.
My comments appear between dashes.
-----------------------------------
I believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for not singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with Darwin but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution. Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game.
-----------------------------------
OK, first little point: The Stadium and School Prayer
http://archive.aclu.org/clis/schoolprayer.html
http://archive.aclu.org/court/prayer.html
The ACLU is the one who carried these lawsuits forward. Not “atheists”. These kinds of lawsuits generally begin when the “wrong kind of” Christian offers a prayer, and other Christians take offense.
In the case of the stadium incident, people who did not participate in the prayer were OPENLY HARRASSED by their Christian peers.
The actual case story about what went on at the event that got the story started.
http://archive.aclu.org/court/santafe.html#statement
"
1. The Litigation. Plaintiffs are two mothers and their children who objected to persistent imposition of sectarian religious practices in the public schools of Santa Fe, Texas. The district court found a history of distinctively Christian prayer at graduation, prayer before every football and baseball game, school selection of the clergyman to conduct a subsidized baccalaureate service, and on-campus distribution of Bibles by the Gideons. The court further found that Santa Fe had encouraged and preferred religion clubs over other clubs and that multiple teachers had promoted their own religious views in the classroom. One teacher, after distributing flyers for a Baptist revival meeting to his class and discovering in the ensuing conversation that one of his students is Mormon, "launched into a diatribe about the non-Christian, cult-like nature of Mormonism, and its general evils." Pet. App. A4.(1)
The district court found that "these incidents occurred amidst the School District's repeated tolerance of similar activities and oftentimes with the awareness and explicit approval of the School District," and that "these incidents therefore reflect the actual policies of the School District at that time, irrespective of any applicable written policies which may have been in place." Pet. App. E2 n.2.(2)
"
So, what we have is a Baptist versus Mormon conflict that started the mess.
Furthermore, in school you are still free to pray on your own. The only thing the law says is you can't have the SCHOOL officially lead a prayer. If you want to talk to your hands over your food, it's fine with everyone. If you want to grab the microphone, stand behind a podium and tell everyone to drop everything and pray, that's not fine. The distinction isn't a very complex one, but some people don't seem to “get it”.
-----------------------------------
"But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles. And we are in the Bible Belt. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1.
So what would you expect -- somebody chanting Hare Krishna?
If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer.
If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.
If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would hear someone pray to Buddha.
And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in Rome...
Appeal to Popularity.
"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.
-----------------------------------
Actually, as already demonstrated, it's about ANY other religious groups being persecuted at state-run events. And in the event that sparked the lawsuit, the non-Baptists were singled out and humiliated.
-----------------------------------
Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me. The silent majority has been silent too long... it's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want... ...it is time the majority rules!! It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray..you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right....but by golly you are no longer going to take our rights away...we are fighting back... and we WILL WIN! After all, the God you have the right to denounce, is on our side!!
God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him...
God bless America, despite all her faults.. still the greatest nation of all.....
God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God...
May 2003 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions.
Keep looking up......In God WE Trust
-----------------------------------
So, as far as the writer is concerned, EVERY atheist is incapable of tolerating even seconds of Christian exposure, while Christians are the model of tolerance and understanding? And all things wrong in the country are because of the unreligious?
Well, you know what? I'm sick and tired of this endless ad-hominem being cast at the unreligious. Maybe I'll take this advice and not be silent.
I don't believe in any gods. I can't help it. I can't start honestly believing in them any more than many of you can stop believing in them. If you consider yourself monotheistic, then I only dismiss one god more than you. I've lived my life generally avoiding the topic of religion for the simple reason that many people appear to believe that not being Christian is a “Bad Thing”, and that not having any religion at all is even worse. What this means is every time the Jehova's Witnesses, the Mormons, or any of the many fruity flavors of born-again fundies corner me in some public place, I know from experience it will be that much worse when I tell them that I don't consider any “Testament” to be an authoritative source of “truth”, and don't believe in their Christ, their God or their book. I also know that they approach other Christians in this manner. Usually, I grin and bear it. I'm even nice and polite to the Jehova's Witnesses (and others) who come to my door. How many of you can say that? When people get that “look” on their face and say something like “I'll pray for you!” and walk quickly away like they expect lightning to come down from the sky, I know I've just been socially chastised. Typically for nothing more than mentioning I don't attend church.
Most Christians I know are good people. I conclude this because most people I know are good people, and most people I am exposed to regularly are Christians. I am polite enough not to bring religion arbitrarily into a discussion. I will bow in silence at the dinner table, or sit quietly for moments of silence, or politely do whatever my hosts do as their regular rituals require when visiting. I just don't happen to believe in any of it as coming from “almighty” sources.
But maybe I shouldn't bend over and “take it” when someone is arbitrarily stirring up hatred that is eventually focused towards me.
Take that original letter and replace “atheist” with “Jew”, or “Hindu”, or “Muslim” or even "Mormon". Then ask yourself again why the ACLU takes these cases.
Oh, and go ahead and send this rebuttal to all the folks you know, if you like. Just to be "fair".