Death

[LucyR]

Are committed Christians afraid of death?

How do they feel when a relative or loved one shuffles off this mortal coil?

Any Christians here who’d like to answer?

Doubtless this has been asked before, but I don’t recall seeing the discussion.

[sorgoth]

I know how I felt about it.

It's kind of a 'doublethink' thing.

On the one side, you believe they're going to a better place, on the other, you know they are dead, and it still strikes you just as hard as anyone else.

[LucyR]

Originally posted by sorgoth
I know how I felt about it.

It's kind of a 'doublethink' thing.

On the one side, you believe they're going to a better place, on the other, you know they are dead, and it still strikes you just as hard as anyone else.

Thanks, sorgoth.

It seems to me that if you whole-heartedly believe that you're going to heaven you shouldn't be afraid of death (assuming it can be arranged to occur painlessly).

You also shouldn't be too upset at the death of relatives, knowing you'll see them again. Ok, maybe you'd be put out at the thought of the separation (though in the case of some of mine a break could do us all some good).

[Iacchus]

"He's dead Jim ..." ;)

[LucyR]

Originally posted by Iacchus
"He's dead Jim ..." ;)

Care to explain?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by LucyR

Care to explain? The usual prognosis McCoy gave to Kirk. ;)

[LucyR]

Originally posted by Iacchus
The usual prognosis McCoy gave to Kirk. ;)

Yes, I realize that. Perhaps it's because Saturday is get-drunk night, but I nevertheless see no relevance to my question.

[Iacchus]

Guess it's my way of saying I'd like to help but, it doesn't really interest me that much. Or, maybe it's just because death is a funny affair? ;)

[LucyR]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Guess it's my way of saying I'd like to help but, it doesn't really interest me that much. Or, maybe it's just because death is a funny affair? ;)

Interested you enough to make three replies out four, not counting my own, apparently.

Death's funny?

[no one in particular]

Originally posted by LucyR

Death's funny? Only when it happens to other people.

[evildave]

Might be funny when it happens to you or me; it's all a matter of the situation, how much agony's involved, etc.

I mean, you could die with an arrow through your head that severs certain connections in your brain relevent to pain, and make a Steve Martin joke or two before you have seizures.

[LucyR]

Originally posted by evildave
I mean, you could die with an arrow through your head that severs certain connections in your brain relevent to pain, and make a Steve Martin joke or two before you have seizures.

So you think Steve Martin's funny? He's always seemed a little weak to me.

[evildave]

Well, if YOU find it funny when YOU die, who's to question it?

After a bad vacation, you could die impaled on Mickey Mouse's tail and find it amusing while you're in shock and bleeding out fast, for instance.

Maybe that 'grand mal siezure' is people 'getting' the joke that was their lives.

You never know.

[LucyR]

Originally posted by evildave
Well, if YOU find it funny when YOU die, who's to question it?

After a bad vacation, you could die impaled on Mickey Mouse's tail and find it amusing while you're in shock and bleeding out fast, for instance.

Maybe that 'grand mal siezure' is people 'getting' the joke that was their lives.

You never know.

Feeling a little nihilistic this evening? :D

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by LucyR

Interested you enough to make three replies out four, not counting my own, apparently.

Death's funny? Hey look at the Irish. They don't waste any regrets about it do they?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by evildave

Might be funny when it happens to you or me; it's all a matter of the situation, how much agony's involved, etc.

I mean, you could die with an arrow through your head that severs certain connections in your brain relevent to pain, and make a Steve Martin joke or two before you have seizures. Yeah, and sometimes you're just better off dead. ;)

[RabbiSatan]

Originally posted by LucyR


Thanks, sorgoth.

It seems to me that if you whole-heartedly believe that you're going to heaven you shouldn't be afraid of death (assuming it can be arranged to occur painlessly).

You also shouldn't be too upset at the death of relatives, knowing you'll see them again. Ok, maybe you'd be put out at the thought of the separation (though in the case of some of mine a break could do us all some good).

That's one of the things I've never quite understood about religious people - they know they're going to go to heaven, yet here they are quivering and worrying and crying about the death of a loved one, pet, and wondering when you are going to die.

Ironically, in my experience (and of myself), those who fully accept that death is the end - that there isn't an afterlife, that we won't get to see mommy, daddy, or fluffy ever again - are the ones who are more composed and aren't worried about dying at all.

"Oh? What happens to us after we die you say? Well, we die, that's it, end of story, just cremate me and do whatever with my ashes, I don't give a damn"

[csense]

Originally posted by RabbiSatan


That's one of the things I've never quite understood about religious people - they know they're going to go to heaven, yet here they are quivering and worrying and crying about the death of a loved one, pet, and wondering when you are going to die.

Ironically, in my experience (and of myself), those who fully accept that death is the end - that there isn't an afterlife, that we won't get to see mommy, daddy, or fluffy ever again - are the ones who are more composed and aren't worried about dying at all.

"Oh? What happens to us after we die you say? Well, we die, that's it, end of story, just cremate me and do whatever with my ashes, I don't give a damn"


It depends what you mean by worry.

Certainly contemplation of such things is not in itself worrisome behavior, else you would be guilty of same.
One could say that it is not the belief per se but the level of preoccupation one assigns to it, and a theist who spends X amount of time expressing their belief in a concept, is no different in principle than an atheist who spends X amount of time expressing their disbelief for the same concept...but even then, it would be arguable if such preoccupation could be construed as evidently worrisome.


I think fear would be a better candidate for debate, but fear of death, and fear of dying it seems to me are two different things.
I think we all fear an event of dying that may be physically painful, regardless if one is a theist, or atheist.

As for death itself, I can't speak for all theists, but I do not fear it.

[neutrino_cannon]

I would suggest that the immense diversity within the group of people labled "Christian" makes it well nigh impossible to come up with any sort of accurate statement that applies to them. Shoot, there's constant heated arguement over exactly what constitutes a Christian, usually over such things as their opinions on death.

What a world it is we die in.

I would be unsuprised to see marked variety in opinions about death within a particular church.

http://dying.about.com/od/christian/

[evildave]

Originally posted by LucyR


Feeling a little nihilistic this evening? :D

Going back to the first example, maybe certain other pathways are severed/compressed to make Steve Martin jokes seem funny.

[Radrook]

Originally posted by LucyR
Are committed Christians afraid of death?

How do they feel when a relative or loved one shuffles off this mortal coil?

Any Christians here who’d like to answer?

Doubtless this has been asked before, but I don’t recall seeing the discussion.

True Christians do not fear death because they have hopes of a ressurection..




1 Thessalonians 4:13
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.

[LucyR]

Originally posted by Radrook


True Christians do not fear death because they have hopes of a ressurection..




1 Thessalonians 4:13
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.

Hopes? To get the better of perhaps the most powerful of instincts I'd think you'd need more than 'hopes'.

[Radrook]

Originally posted by LucyR


Hopes? To get the better of perhaps the most powerful of instincts I'd think you'd need more than 'hopes'.


The things that a true Christian accomplishes are not dependent on the Christian's meager human willpower.


Philippians 4:13
I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me [I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who [Marvin Vincent, Word Studies.] infuses inner strength into me; I am [Note that in Phil. 4:11, the Greek autarkas, translated "content," is literally "self-sufficient."] self-sufficient in Christ's sufficiency].

Amplified Bible

[BillyJoe]

If your daughter decides to go to England on a one year working holiday, don't be surprised when you shed a tear as she sets off on her flight even though you know you will see her again in one years time.

:rolleyes:

BJ

[Gregor]

Ahhhh, the "no true scotsman" fallacy.

If you fear death, you must not be a true xian.

[Bubbles]

*The liturgy for the dead is an Easter liturgy. It finds all meaning in the resurrection. Because Jesus was raised from the dead, we too, shall be raised.*

*The liturgy, therefore, is characterized by joy, in the certainty that "neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."*

*This joy, however, does not make human grief unchristian. The very love we have for each other in Christ brings deep sorrow when we are parted by death. Jesus himself wept at the grave of his friend. So, while we rejoice that one we love has entered into the nearer presence of our Lord, we sorrow in sympathy with those who mourn.*

The above is in the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer at the start of the litugy of burial (it isn't itslef part of the liturgy). I think the last line is a little odd, but other than that the instructions are fairly clear. There is grief present because one loves the person who has died and there is now speration and loss. There is also hope that their story is not finished and their part in the life of those still alive is not finished.

Hope, in a Christian sense, does not mean wishing. It has an element of expectation.

How do I feel? I don't think I'm afraid of death. I am afraid of dying because I'm afraid of pain. Dying often hurst like the Dickens. Being dead, so far as we know, doesn't hurt at all.

On a purely human level, death is an unknown. None of us knows what it is like. Perhaps it is non-entity. Perhaps its a party. Perhaps it hurts like mad. Who knows? Should I be afraid of the unknown? That doesn't seem reasonable to me.

On a more Christian level, I believe that God is good. If God sends us all there, then I'll trust it is OK. If God wants me to go, then I'll believe it is for the best. Having said that: yes, death is a bad things. I believe, though, that it is a redeemable thing. Resurrection, like all redemption, doesn't negate the bad, incorperates it in a greater good.

One final thought: I am afraid of heights. It is an irrational fear (Basically the only effect of this is that I despise roller-coasters). Still, it is there. I won't generalize from self and say that we all have irrational fears. I do, maybe other people do. You could make the case that, for a Christian (and perhaps for all of us), fear of death is an irrational fear. Maybe we are afraid of death. Maybe we shouldn't be. We try to act based on reason and not irrational fear. Maybe we succeed, maybe we fail. Life goes on (until it doesn't. . . )

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Gregor
Ahhhh, the "no true scotsman" fallacy.

If you fear death, you must not be a true xian.

We are not authorized to judge a person's relationship with God based on outward appearances in that way.

We can say that the Bible tells us that the ideal is that a Christian not fear death in the same way as those who have no hope. But we cannot say that any given Christian who has not reached that level of spiritual maturity is therefore not a Christian.

Only God can determine accurately without any doubt who is and who is really not a Christian based on a person's heart or innermost self.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by LucyR


Thanks, sorgoth.

It seems to me that if you whole-heartedly believe that you're going to heaven you shouldn't be afraid of death (assuming it can be arranged to occur painlessly).

You also shouldn't be too upset at the death of relatives, knowing you'll see them again. Ok, maybe you'd be put out at the thought of the separation (though in the case of some of mine a break could do us all some good).

I rather suspect we're all genetically predisposed to fear death.

[Beancounter]

Originally posted by Radrook

"Only God can determine accurately without any doubt who is and who is really not a Christian based on a person's heart or innermost self."

So if god determines that I am not a true christian (which I am not, although I like to think I live by tenets that approximately equate to those adopted by christians), what then? Should I be afraid of death? What do I have to look forward to?

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Beancounter
Originally posted by Radrook

"Only God can determine accurately without any doubt who is and who is really not a Christian based on a person's heart or innermost self."

So if god determines that I am not a true christian (which I am not, although I like to think I live by tenets that approximately equate to those adopted by christians), what then? Should I be afraid of death? What do I have to look forward to?




You might not at present be willing to believe in God or not willing to be a Christian--but the very fact that you have a predisposition to live a descent life is indicative of potential. God looks at this potential and if it indicates future acceptance of him as God he will grant you the opportunity for eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.



How should you feel right now about death?
Well, I cannot tell you how you must feel.
Not having hope of a future is after one dies is rather sad,
However, death is the cessation of all sensory input. The Bible compares it to sleep. So if we do not fear sleep, then death should not to feared since it is the deepest sleep possible.

Of course the fear is that of never waking up.
But as I said, if you have the required potential God will perceive it and bring you back at the time appropriate for your edification.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
I rather suspect we're all genetically predisposed to fear death.
I agree with Ian here. After all, it could be said that humans are just a DNA strand's way of making a similar DNA strand. Obviously, the best tools for the task are creatures which protect themselves from death. It could be argued that this should not matter after a human has finished it's reproductive years, but humans have only just recently started living (on the average) past their reproductive years, too short a time to encode changes in basic survival strategies.

In fact, the fear of death is so strong that it is necessary for some to deny it happens. They concoct afterlife scenarios and elaborate mythologies to pretend, against all evidence, that death isn't complete. Sure, I fear death. I like life very much, thank you, and I don't wish it to be ended. But I don't fear being dead. I have no terror of an afterlife in hell. Neither do I anticipate my "rewards" in heaven. No one has been able to give me a description of the afterlife which has any appeal to me.

But I will continue to try to live, and have as good a time doing so as possible. My genes demand it.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Radrook
You might not at present be willing to believe in God or not willing to be a Christian--but the very fact that you have a predisposition to live a descent life is indicative of potential. God looks at this potential and if it indicates future acceptance of him as God he will grant you the opportunity for eternal life.


C'mon Radrook, that's some goofy crap you're spreading. How does God feel about a devout Buddhist? Buddhists live much more spiritual and contemplative lives than xians.

What does Christianity have to do with living a "descent" life? (is that a Freudian slip?)

You would agree Yahweh is not Brahma - how does He feel about Hindus?

What does Yahweh have to do with an atheist who lives a loving, thoughtful, caring life?

This is where xianity stumbles badly. If xianity didn't care it wouldn't matter, but xianity cares too much what other people believe.

[Beancounter]

Originally posted by Radrook

You might not at present be willing to believe in God or not willing to be a Christian--but the very fact that you have a predisposition to live a descent life is indicative of potential.

Snip

How should you feel right now about death?
Well, I cannot tell you how you must feel.
Not having hope of a future is after one dies is rather sad


I'm so glad that I have potential. A tad condescending!

No, it is not sad that I do not have hope of a future. I aim to ensure that I live my life to the fullest with a view to making my, and the people around me's, time the best I can. That is it.

I am not doing it in the hope of achieving some afterlife, I am doing it because, unless you are some sort of psychopath, it is the best way to enjoy one's life on this planet. If you are good because you believe that you will get sent to somewhere else better, then it is clearly the case that you are also living under the fear of not being sent there. I do not have that sword of Damocles hanging over me which, IMHO, is a better way to live.

[Brown]

Originally posted by LucyR
Are committed Christians afraid of death?I have heard it said repeatedly that the answer should be "no," based upon the epistle to the Philippians:1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.This admonition is almost always offered by someone who personally is not facing his own death at the time. To those that are dying, especially to those that are dying in intense suffering, these verses provide little solace.

It is generally a matter of individual personal character, not a matter of group religious belief, whether one fears death.

[csense]

Philippians
1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain


I have heard it said repeatedly that the answer should be "no" [re: fear of death] based upon the epistle to the Philippians:This admonition is almost always offered by someone who personally is not facing his own death at the time. To those that are dying, especially to those that are dying in intense suffering, these verses provide little solace.


One could say that your statement is also such an admonition.
How do you know that these verses do not provide solace to those that are dying?


It is generally a matter of individual personal character, not a matter of group religious belief, whether one fears death.

Remove the term religious from your statement and I might agree with some reservation, although, better said, I would however agree with the form It is generally a matter of the individual.