Julian The Apostate.

[Cleopatra]

Maybe this topic has to do with Religion mostly but it has to do with History as well.

Today is the anniversary of the death of the Emperor Julian the so called The Apostate.

From early this morning I have been listening to every sort of crap on the radio coming from priests and religious fanatics that took the opportunity to celebrate the triumph of Christianity over the Greek reason.

In protest I posted in a couple of greek discussion listσ Gibbon's analysis on Julian and a poem of Swinburne, a great man that the religious establishment has kept out of our schools. :mad:. Needless to say that I received the silence of the religious ignoramus in reply.

"The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire" by Edward Gibbon (Ch.23 Part I)
Our partial ignorance may represent him as a philosophic monarch, who studied to protect, with an equal hand, the religious factions of the empire, and to allay the theological fever which had inflamed the minds of the people from the edicts of Diocletian to the exile of Athanasius. A more accurate view of the character and conduct of Julian will remove this favourable prepossession for a prince who did not escape the general contagion of the times. We enjoy the singular advantage of comparing the pictures which have been delineated by his fondest admirers and his implacable enemies. The actions of Julian are faithfully related by a judicious and candid historian, the impartial spectator of his life and death.

The weakness of polytheism was, in some measure, excused by the moderation of its claims; and the devotion of the Pagans was not incompatible with the most licentious scepticism.(12) Instead of an indivisible and regular system, which occupies the whole extent of the believing mind, the mythology of the Greeks was composed of a thousand loose and flexible parts, and the servant of the gods was at liberty to define the degree and measure of his religious faith. The creed which Julian adopted for his own use was of the largest dimensions; and, by a strange contradiction, he disdained the salutary yoke of the Gospel, whilst he made a voluntary offering of his reason on the altars of Jupiter and Apollo.

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/gibbone/rome/volume1/chap23.htm

[Cleopatra]

HYMN TO PROSERPINE

(After the Proclamation in Rome of the Christian
Faith)


Vicisti, Galilaee



I have lived long enough, having seen one thing,
that love hath an end;
Goddess and maiden and queen, be near me now and
befriend.
Thou art more than the day of the morrow, the
seasons that laugh or that weep;
For these give joy and sorrow; but thou, Proserpina,
sleep.
Sweet is the treading of wine, and sweet the feet
of the dove;
But a goodlier gift is thine than foam of the
grapes or love.
Yea, is not even Apollo, with hair and harpstring
of gold,
A bitter god to follow, a beautiful god to behold?

I am sick of singing; the bays burn deep and chafe.
I am fain
To rest a little from praise and grievous pleasure
and pain.
For the gods we know not of, who give us our daily
breath,
We know they are cruel as love or life, and lovely
as death.

O gods dethroned and deceased, cast forth, wiped
out in a day!
From your wrath is the world released, redeemed
from your chains, men say.
New gods are crowned in the city; their flowers
have broken your rods;
They are merciful, clothed with pity, the young
compassionate gods.
...

Wilt thou yet take all, Galilean? But these thou
shalt not take --
The laurel, the palms, and the paean, the breasts
of the nymphs in the brake,
Breasts more soft than a dove's, that tremble with
tenderer breath;
And all the wings of the Loves, and all the joy
before death;
All the feet of the hours that sound as a single
lyre,
Dropped and deep in the flowers, with strings that
flicker like fire.
...

Fate is a sea without shore, and the soul is a rock
that abides;
But her ears are vexed with the roar and her face
with the foam of the tides.
O lips that the live blood faints in, the leavings
of racks and rods!
O ghastly glories of saints, dead limbs of gibbeted
gods!
Though all men abase them before you in spirit, and
all knees bend,
I kneel not, neither adore you, but standing look
to the end.
...

For the glass of the years is brittle wherein we
gaze for a span.
A little soul for a little bears up this corpse
which is man.
So long I endure, no longer; and laugh not again,
neither weep.
For there is no god found stronger than death; and
death is a sleep.



ALGERNON CHARLES SWINBURNE, 1866

I am fed up with the peasants. :mad:

[LuxFerum]

Radio is for peasants.:D :D :D


This guy persecute christians during his reign, didn't he?That is why those guys are happy?

[livius drusus]

This is a great thread, Cleopatra, celebrating a fascinating character. Thank you for posting the Swinburne poem; I had never seen it before.

I have a soft spot in my heart for Julian the Apostate. Reading Gore Vidal's epistolary novel Julian was a seminal experience for me and I just recently came across something Julian himself wrote and was utterly enchanted.

Emperor Julian wasn't an entirely effective satirist (his real displeasure shows through too clearly), but the Mispogon (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/julian-mispogon.html) gives us a remarkable view of the man himself: his self-image both physical and mental, his reaction to needling, his paganism. I found it particularly interesting that Julian's philosophy grounded approach to civic and religious duty was perceived as uptight while the Christians (whom Julian in classical Roman tradition refers to as atheists) of Antioch were the party animals.

I have however annoyed many of you, I may almost say all, the Senate, the wealthy citizens, the common people. The latter indeed, since they have chosen atheism, hate me for the most part, or rather all of them hate me because they see that I adhere to the ordinances of the sacred rites which our forefathers observed; the powerful citizens hate me because they are prevented from selling everything at a high price; but all of you hate me on account of the dancers and the theatres. Not because I deprive others of these pleasures, but because I care less for things of that sort than for frogs croaking in a pond.

:)

[livius drusus]

Originally posted by LuxFerum
This guy persecute christians during his reign, didn't he?That is why those guys are happy?

Not at all. By the time he rolled around Christianity was the main religion of the empire; there were no persecutions (unless you count Christian v. Christian, natch). Julian pissed people off by attempting to revive the worship of Greek deities (and philosophy) when nobody gave a rat's ass anymore, but he didn't persecute Christians; he just sort of bugged them.

[LuxFerum]

Originally posted by livius drusus


Not at all. By the time he rolled around Christianity was the main religion of the empire; there were no persecutions (unless you count Christian v. Christian, natch). Julian pissed people off by attempting to revive the worship of Greek deities (and philosophy) when nobody gave a rat's ass anymore, but he didn't persecute Christians; he just sort of bugged them.

Wikipedia says that he killed some priests


Julian is called "The Apostate" because he reverted from Christianity to Paganism, suppressed the persecution of pagans and destruction of temples that had followed Constantine I's official encouragement of Christianity. (During his earlier years, while studying at Athens, he became acquainted with two men who later became both bishops and saints: Gregory Nazianzus and Basil the Great.) Constantine had not yet made Christianity the official state religion, which would not happen until Theodosius I in the 380s, but he and his immediate successors had prohibited the upkeep of pagan temples, and many temples were destroyed and pagan worshippers killed during the reign of Constantine and his successors. The extent to which the emperors approved or commanded these destructions and killings is disputed, but they certainly did not prevent them. It is interesting to note that Julian carried out a similar policy relating to the killing of Christian priests during his reign. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_the_Apostate

[livius drusus]

Originally posted by LuxFerum
Wikipedia says that he killed some priests

It doesn't, actually. It says that Julian did not prevent the killing of Christian priests in the same way that previous emperors did not prevent the killing of pagan believers and destruction of their places of worship.

I suspect this quote from Gibbon is what wiki is talking about:

The temper of Julian was averse to cruelty; and the care of his reputation, which was exposed to the eyes of the universe, restrained the philosophic monarch from violating the laws of justice and toleration which he himself had so recently established. But the provincial ministers of his authority were placed in a less conspicuous station. In the exercise of arbitrary power, they consulted the wishes, rather than the commands, of their sovereign; and ventured to exercise a secret and vexatious tyranny against the sectaries on whom they were not permitted to confer the honours of martyrdom. The emperor, who dissembled as long as possible his knowledge of the injustice that was exercised in his name, expressed his real sense of the conduct of his officers by gentle reproofs and substantial rewards.

Towards the end of his rule, Julian did actively discriminate against Christians, refusing them government employment, stripping all state subsidies of the Church and requiring that Christians make restitution for the destroyed pagan properties by destroying the churches they had built over the old sacred places and rebuilding the temples.

Civil rights hero Julian was not, but discrimination and persecution are very different things and I think the examples of bloodthirsty emperors such as Domitian and Diocletian make that eminently clear.

[headscratcher4]

It is important to note the context for Julian as well...

As a nephew of Constantine, he was not necessarilly the designated successor of the Emperor. Constantine's elimination of members of his direct family (I believe his eldest son, for instance) moved Julian up in the pecking order. Also, for some reason I seem to remember that he was, as a child, essentially a hostage at Constantine's court and it has been argued that he was a "Christian" in order to survive and negotiate the prickly politics of the Imperial Court.

Further, while Constantine "became" a christian (either at the Malvern Bridge or on his deathbed -- but somewhere along the way) and thus the empire became "Christian", it was not a Christian Empire at that time. Large segments, possibly the majority, were still technically and actually Pagan. My recollection, than, is that Julian's apostacism was both from conviction but ALSO an attempt to ralley Empire forces behind his leadership vs. that of his Cousins and more direct heirs of Constantine. It, in short, provided him with a empire-wide power base that was different and potentially stronger than the direct heirs of Constantine.

My recollection is also that while a very smart man and very interesting, as a ruler he was not particularly effective -- but that assessment may in fact be due to the shortness of his reign. In any event, on his death, the Constantinian/Christian elite quickly re-emerged and suppressed and persecuted pagans and closing down historical pagan institutions throughout the State.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
... a poem of Swinburne, a great man that the religious establishment has kept out of our schools. :mad:.

A bit off topic, but I agree with you about Swinburne. Most Americans think that poetry began and ended with Dickinson. I've tried to correct this with my children, even though poetry isn't my forte either. My daughter recently had me print out "Garden of Proserpine" so she could stick on her wall. :)

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Piscivore


A bit off topic, but I agree with you about Swinburne. Most Americans think that poetry began and ended with Dickinson. I've tried to correct this with my children, even though poetry isn't my forte either. My daughter recently had me print out "Garden of Proserpine" so she could stick on her wall. :)

Oh I was having in mind the Greek schools. :) Very few Greeks know Swinburne a man who could recite passages of ancient greek authors for hours...

[Giz]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Very few Greeks know Swinburne, a man who could recite passages of ancient greek authors for hours...

You say it like that's a good thing...
didn't the Turks leave in a hurry round about then?

[Ed]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
HYMN TO PROSERPINE

(After the Proclamation in Rome of the Christian
Faith)


Vicisti, Galilaee





I am under the impression that this quote is misattributed to Julian.

[Byzantine Magpie]

John Julius Norwich's "Byzantium - The Early Years" contains an excellent summary of Julian's life and achievements. He comes across as a thoughtful man who attempted to roll back the Christian tide in the Empire, and combat entrenched corruption. But he tried too much too soon, and was caught up with a war with Persia.

The Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus also provides an interesting biography of Julian.

Incidentally, Headscratcher, the battle was at the Milvian Bridge, not the Malvern Bridge (missed it by *that* much!).

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by Byzantine Magpie
John Julius Norwich's "Byzantium - The Early Years" contains an excellent summary of Julian's life and achievements. He comes across as a thoughtful man who attempted to roll back the Christian tide in the Empire, and combat entrenched corruption. But he tried too much too soon, and was caught up with a war with Persia.

The Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus also provides an interesting biography of Julian.

Incidentally, Headscratcher, the battle was at the Milvian Bridge, not the Malvern Bridge (missed it by *that* much!).

Alas, my memory, like my spelling, is often quite creative...;)

P.S. Norwich's Byzantium (all three volumes) is terrific...actually, everything by Norwich is pretty darn good.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by livius drusus
This is a great thread, Cleopatra, celebrating a fascinating character. Thank you for posting the Swinburne poem; I had never seen it before.

I have a soft spot in my heart for Julian the Apostate. Reading Gore Vidal's epistolary novel Julian was a seminal experience for me and I just recently came across something Julian himself wrote and was utterly enchanted.



I read that too, and loved it. The latter days of the Roman empire never holds the interest of it's earlier days. The decline of something so magnificent, if not wholly praisworthy, is pretty depressing in many ways, with the ignorance of the Dark Ages clearly looming.

Julian, however, made the Empire of his time worthy of attention. A Roman Emporer, IIRC, who never went to Rome.

I find it amazing that we still have the original works of so many of the people from this time. The intelligence of much of this work makes you wonder about some of our leaders today, if we have really made any real progress in the world of politics. Our technology is so far advanced it is incredible, our political and philosophical sophistication, not nearly so much. For everything new we learn, we forget just as much.

Maybe all our smartest people work on technology, and the idiots stick to politics and power.

[Soapy Sam]

Cleo- I never had much time for gods, but I make an exception of Pallas Athene. Smart and sexy. My ideal woman , really.

[kookbreaker]

Man, just how many Roman leaders succumed to the "let's invade Persia" fever, anyway?

Pretty close to that "land war in Asia" line from Princess Bride.