Saddam's evil because he gassed Iraqis—and that's OUR job!

[shanek]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=383006

The US is preparing to use the toxic riot-control agents CS gas and pepper spray in Iraq in contravention of the Chemical Weapons Convention, provoking the first split in the Anglo-US alliance. "Calmative" gases, similar to the one that killed 120 hostages in the Moscow theatre siege last year, could also be employed.

And, of course, let's not forget that the American government gassed its own citizens with this same stuff in Waco, TX...

[Reginald]

A fair point, however.....

A special working group of the Federation of American Scientists concluded last month that using even the mildest of these weapons to incapacitate people would kill 9 per cent of them. It added: "Chemical incapacitating weapons are as likely as bullets to cause death."


I query this, also they are a darn sight less likely to kill than the full bomb loads of half a dozen B-52s dropping on your locale.

I would have thought that a weapon that incapacitates would have been welcomed by those concerned about killing an enemy

Ironic that you can use these on a group of protestors yet not an enemy in battle.....good thread Shanek.

[demon]

It`s by no means certain Saddam gassed his own people.
This is an assumption put about by the media and warmongers to justify a spurious humanitarian reason to kill a lot of innocent people.

Please, let`s get with the critical thinking already people!
Is critical and rational thinking a moveable feast or something?
For F..ks sake!!!!!

[crackmonkey]

********, and you should know better. Saddam admitted using gas against the Kurds.
Interesting take on things, Shanek. CS gas = VX in your estimation? If I have cause to use pepper spray in self-defense, would it be equivalent to spraying my assailant with a deadly nerve agent?
This sort of distorted twisting of reality is just intellectually dishonest.

[Tricky]

Is Saddam evil because he used chemical warfare? Well, campers, what do you think Napalm is? How about Agent Orange?

[crackmonkey]

Saddam's evil because, among many other acts of cruelty, he deliberately dropped chemical weapons on an unarmed and defenseless population with the intent of genocide.
This kind of 'well, we do it too..." stuff just doesn't cut it in this situation. Though the US has done some shameful things, unquestionably, we have never descended to the level of a sadist like Saddam.

[demon]

"This sort of distorted twisting of reality is just intellectually "dishonest"

Thanks crackmonkey. You just characterised the chickenhawk position better than I ever could.
Denial is a nice warm place isn`t it? I take it you haven`t read the relevant FBI stuff that casts doubt on this claim? Yes a "claim" no more, no less? Why let evidence stand in the way of a slaughter eh? Would it ruin a few nights good tv for you as you watch the turkey shoot? Is that it?
"reality" ? whose reality? Your Cnn, Fox rubbish?
The rest of the world are laughing at you for being so gullible.
You should get the hell out of here and go join some of the woo woo forums, they like your kind of thinking there.
Your reply made my day.
Operation "shock and awe" will no doubt make yours but it will be the last day for a lot of innocent Iraqis but who`s counting eh?.:(

[digitalmcq]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
Saddam's evil because, among many other acts of cruelty, he deliberately dropped chemical weapons on an unarmed and defenseless population with the intent of genocide.
This kind of 'well, we do it too..." stuff just doesn't cut it in this situation. Though the US has done some shameful things, unquestionably, we have never descended to the level of a sadist like Saddam.

You're forgetting that we were an ally of Saddam when he was at his most powerful and cruel. Saddam gassed the Kurds when he was our ally. He was a brutal dictator when he was our ally. The 'Saddam is evil so we have a duty to eliminate him' argument loses its punch when you remember that we have supported him when he was at his worst.

[demon]

"Saddam gassed the Kurds when he was our ally"
Hi digital.
This claim is by now means proven and actually the evidence that does exist points the finger at Iran.
Classic case of say something often enough and it will become the next mantra. Just like the great "Saddam kicked the weapons inspectors out in 1998" lie and he bulids palaces and starves his people.
All you have to do is go to the source and read the UN stuff about all of this. It tells a somewhat different story to that gleefully thrown around by the chickenhawks.
Ask them about PNAC. Thats what is at the bottom of all this but strangely it`s left out of the argument. Wonder why eh? It`s not rocket science.

The whole hawk case is based on such lies and assumptions and their belief that the rest of us are too thick to think for ourselves. I`m still waiting for one iota of proof. Aren`t you?
The guy you quote in your signature has a lot to say about it as I`m sure you know.

[Reginald]

You're forgetting that we were an ally of Saddam when he was at his most powerful and cruel. Saddam gassed the Kurds when he was our ally. He was a brutal dictator when he was our ally. The 'Saddam is evil so we have a duty to eliminate him' argument loses its punch when you remember that we have supported him when he was at his worst.

If you start, as I do, by saying that we were WRONG to have supported SH, then I can quite happily see him out of business. I say yet again, just because you make a mistake in the past dosnt stop you from correcting that mistake in the future.

What would you have us do? Say "Oh thats ok we gaffed big time so we cannot possibly do anything about it now"?

Oh and as for why he is evil, shooting people in front of their families and making them applaud the action, asking them to pay for the bullet and the admin costs goes a long way to being evil in my book.

Check out the news people, hes at it again in north Iraq, or you could choose to ignore it, after all we did sell him some dubious equipment many years ago.



:rolleyes:

[demon]

"If you start, as I do, by saying that we were WRONG to have supported SH, then I can quite happily see him out of business. I say yet again, just because you make a mistake in the past dosnt stop you from correcting that mistake in the future."

Fair play on that argument. One of the first times I have heard it admiited that we did wrong.
Ok, talking that as a starting point by all means lets get rid of him but the problem isn`t as simple as that.
When we are doing this, at the same time we are making and supporting other Saddams.
We need a full house cleaning, not just a convenient scapegoat.
Lets start at the top. It`s the logical way to go.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by shanek
And, of course, let's not forget that the American government gassed its own citizens with this same stuff in Waco, TX...

I haven't forgotten. It brings a smile to face every time I think about it.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by demon
It`s by no means certain Saddam gassed his own people.
This is an assumption put about by the media and warmongers to justify a spurious humanitarian reason to kill a lot of innocent people.


Of course Saddam didn't gas his own people. The pilots and infantry men he hired did it for him.

[crackmonkey]

...which he has admitted. And for the record, I have never said that the reason we're going to war is to free the Iraqi people. It's a beneficial side effect.
Demon, you have a promising future as a spin doctor. Or perhaps a lawyer, maybe even a politician.

[ssibal]

Uhm, you are worried about the military using pepper spray and CS gas? During training, recruits are put in a room full of CS gas, I guess we have gassed all of our troops.

[demon]

"Demon, you have a promising future as a spin doctor. Or perhaps a lawyer, maybe even a politician."

Crackmonkey, please don`t wish those professions on me! By the way you left out journalist.

Best wishes, demon.

[shanek]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
********, and you should know better. Saddam admitted using gas against the Kurds.

Yeah, back when he was our ally and we were giving him money and support. Now, all of a sudden, that's a big reason to go after him.

CS gas = VX in your estimation?

Black-or-white fallacy.

If I have cause to use pepper spray in self-defense, would it be equivalent to spraying my assailant with a deadly nerve agent?

This is just outright dishonest, as you would not be using the pepper spray in a way that would make fatalities certain.

This sort of distorted twisting of reality is just intellectually dishonest.

:rolleyes:

[crackmonkey]

... and you're asserting that the US WILL be using pepper spray in a fashion that makes fatalities certain? Where do you get your information? I'd love to see a few links...
CS gas is almost never fatal, and I'm unaware of it ever being used with the intent of killing - there are far better ways to kill. VX, and the rest of Saddam's arsenal, are used expressly to kill, and are extremely good at doing so. To compare the two is intellectually dishonest, as I stated.
If Saddam merely had stocks of CS gas, he wouldn't be much of a threat to Kurds or anyone else.

[Mike B.]

If it wasn't Saddam, who gassed the Kurds?

Or are people claiming they never were gassed?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Mike B.
If it wasn't Saddam, who gassed the Kurds?

Or are people claiming they never were gassed?

The claim is that the Iranians did it, and the back up for that claim is essentially Stephen Pelletiere, a top guy at the CIA at the time when we were buddies with Saddam.

Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ANFAL1.htm#P41_8395) disagrees.

Books on the Iran-Iraq War have routinely echoed the unsubstantiated report that both sides had used chemical weapons in Halabja. This notion originated in a study for the U.S. Army War College: Stephen C. Pelletiere, Douglas V. Johnson II and Leif R. Rosenberger, Iraqi Power and U.S. Security in the Middle East (Carlisle Barracks, PA: Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College, 1990). It is repeated in a later book by Pelletiere, a former U.S. intelligence officer, The Iran-Iraq War: Chaos in a Vacuum (New York: Praeger, 1992). This strongly pro-Iraqi work comments, "On May 23 (sic), in fighting over the town, gas was used by both sides. As a result scores (sic) of Iraqi Kurdish civilians were killed. It is now fairly certain that Iranian gas killed the Kurds." (pp.136-137)

The supposed factual basis for this conclusion is that the Halabja victims had blue lips, characteristic of the effects of cyanide gas--which Iraq was not believed to possess. Cyanide gas, a metabolic poison, would indeed produce blue lips, but they are far from being a specific indicator of its use. Nerve agents, which are acetylcholinesterase inhibitors that cause respiratory paralysis, would also turnvictims' lips blue. Middle East Watch interview with Dr. Howard Hu, Harvard School of Public Health, May 13, 1993. On Iraq's proven use of nerve agents against the Kurds during Anfal, see below footnote 10.

MattJ