War 'may bring more terror'

[shanek]

From the "Well, duh" department:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/06/jordan.macvicar.otsc/index.html

"Greater security for the American people by attacking Iraq?" asks Dr. Hisham Bustani, a Jordanian dentist. "Tell me how. Tell me how."

As for U.S. claims that this war could help foster democracy, Fawzi, a Jordanian merchant told me: "Democracy never never never comes from outside..."

[corplinx]

While we are in the hypotheticals department, I would also like to mention that we need all nuclear power plants to close before the wrong lizard is exposed to radiation and becomes a giant superbeast with radioactive breath.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by shanek

"Greater security for the American people by attacking Iraq?" asks Dr. Hisham Bustani, a Jordanian dentist. "Tell me how. Tell me how."

As for U.S. claims that this war could help foster democracy, Fawzi, a Jordanian merchant told me: "Democracy never never never comes from outside.

We're taking lessons in democracy from people in a nation that doesn't have democracy?

I don't think democracy ever comes totally from within, or totally from the outside. An outside influence can greatly speed the adoption of democracy, but the people have to be ready to accept it. I think the Iraqis are.

Of course, Germany and Japan are 2 countries that have had democracy 'forced' on them after world war 2.

[armageddonman]

Originally posted by Segnosaur

Of course, Germany and Japan are 2 countries that have had democracy 'forced' on them after world war 2. [/B]


Not really. Germany was a democracy before the nazis took over and hadn't to be forced to become a democracy after the war had ended. The germans embraced it willingly.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Segnosaur

We're taking lessons in democracy from people in a nation that doesn't have democracy?

Are you sure "you" have nothing to do with their not having Democracy in their country?
Don't they have the right to choose not to have Democracy?

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Are you sure "you" have nothing to do with their not having Democracy in their country?
Don't they have the right to choose not to have Democracy?
Given the fact that I'm not one of Saddams henchmen who helped him murder his opponents to get to the top, and to kill any potential opponents, I'd have to say that I myself have nothing to do with their not being democracy

And yes, a country can choose to not have a democracy, but that choice can only be made once, and it hasn't.

As someone's sig says (I believe a quote from Churchill)... Democracy is the worst form of goverment, except for all the others."

[shanek]

Originally posted by Segnosaur
I don't think democracy ever comes totally from within,

That's how the US did it. That's how the UK went from a monarchy to a more democratic government. That's how just about every western industrialized nation did it.

An outside influence can greatly speed the adoption of democracy, but the people have to be ready to accept it. I think the Iraqis are.

And what are you basing this on?

Of course, Germany and Japan are 2 countries that have had democracy 'forced' on them after world war 2.

West Germany, yes. East Germany did it themselves.

[Cleopatra]

Given the fact that I'm not one of Saddams henchmen who helped him murder his opponents to get to the top, and to kill any potential opponents, I'd have to say that I myself have nothing to do with their not being democracy

You are right.If you are a Canadian citizen it’s highly unlikely that you have ever voted for a government involved in nasty coup d’etas that have ended to massacres, violence, tortures,dictators like Saddam and other unpleasant situations...

And yes, a country can choose to not have a democracy, but that choice can only be made once, and it hasn't.

Hmmmm... I'd say that Democracy doesn't "grow" that way... It's more of a status or better, a lifestyle that you must be taught how to do it.

If you don't believe me, ask Plato :)

Western countries have done nothing to train those people to Democracy,nothing but selling them weapons of course...so maybe it's those people that cannot stand lectures by us, the Democratic citizens...

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by shanek

That's how the US did it. That's how the UK went from a monarchy to a more democratic government. That's how just about every western industrialized nation did it.

Although the U.S. did most of the 'work' themselves, they did get support from the French. (Not that France itself was a democracy at the time.)

Admittedly, I can't think of much external influence on the U.K., but many former British Colonies (like Canada) were 'established' as democracies by Britian when granted independance.

Originally posted by shanek

And what are you basing this on?

The fact that Iraq is relatively secular (compared to more fundamentalist Saudi Arabia), and in the past has been more 'westernized'.

Originally posted by shanek

West Germany, yes. East Germany did it themselves.
East Germany was able to become democratic after the U.S. and other western allies 'won' the cold war.

[rikzilla]

Shane,...

Don't you have anything better to do than trot out as experts a Dentist and a Merchant??? :rolleyes:

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

You are right.If you are a Canadian citizen it’s highly unlikely that you have ever voted for a government involved in nasty coup d’etas that have ended to massacres, violence, tortures,dictators like Saddam and other unpleasant situations...

Although the U.S. has supported dictators in the past (even supporting Iraq during their war with Iran), it should be noted that Saddam did NOT come to power through U.S. action. He did so on his own.
Originally posted by Cleopatra

Hmmmm... I'd say that Democracy doesn't "grow" that way... It's more of a status or better, a lifestyle that you must be taught how to do it.

If you don't believe me, ask Plato :)

I'd ask him, but he's dead. Maybe I can get John Edward to contact him.

"I'm getting a name with a P sound.... he says he is happy... "
Originally posted by Cleopatra

Western countries have done nothing to train those people to Democracy,nothing but selling them weapons of course...so maybe it's those people that cannot stand lectures by us, the Democratic citizens...
Remember, the western countries are not the only ones selling weapons and supporting dictators. Remember, Iraq uses Migs and Soviet tanks, and during the gulf war launched Scuds at Israel. None of these are western made.

And if we haven't done anything in the past, maybe now is a good time to start. (This whole "the U.S. has done bad things in the past so shouldn't act now" means that it is impossible for a country to 'redeam' itself though good actions.)

[shanek]

Originally posted by Segnosaur
Although the U.S. did most of the 'work' themselves, they did get support from the French. (Not that France itself was a democracy at the time.)

Quite irrelevant. France assisted us militarily to defeat the redcoats, but didn't do anything at all to help set up the system of government we had afterward.

The fact that Iraq is relatively secular (compared to more fundamentalist Saudi Arabia), and in the past has been more 'westernized'.

And you feel that will continue after removing the very force responsible for the secular government?

East Germany was able to become democratic after the U.S. and other western allies 'won' the cold war.

:rolleyes:

[shanek]

Originally posted by rikzilla
Shane,...

Don't you have anything better to do than trot out as experts a Dentist and a Merchant??? :rolleyes:

Once again, you add nothing to the discussion but ad hominems. Go away.

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by shanek
From the "Well, duh" department:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/06/jordan.macvicar.otsc/index.html



Err...your OP isn't really addressed by this link - there is this;
"Says Syrian government official and key adviser to the president Dr. Bouthaina Shaaban: "Any attack at the moment will not serve the region, would not serve peace, will not serve security."

Says Shaaban: "I fear that American people might suffer you know if a war in Iraq takes place because terrorism would gain more and more fertile soil."

People are not very free to speak their minds here. But on the streets people echoed Shaaban.

Said Sawsan Abu Haraf, a medical student: "I think America may face more terrorism from the people of Iraq. The people of Iraq, they don't want to die."

This appears to me to be wishful thinking on the part of the Syrians.

The issue is anything but a "Well Duh!" one. One could just as persuasively argue the other way using Afghanistan as an example.

The fact is no one really knows - but we do know that SH is going - whether he, the Jordanian public or a Syrian government mouthpiece wants him to or not.

Barkhorn.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by shanek


Once again, you add nothing to the discussion but ad hominems. Go away.

Dentist and merchant....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

What about the tinker, the tailor, and the candle-stick maker??? Were they unavailable for interview???? BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Segnosaur

Although the U.S. has supported dictators in the past (even supporting Iraq during their war with Iran), it should be noted that Saddam did NOT come to power through U.S. action. He did so on his own.

Oh! This explains the mess then!! "He must pay for it!"He became a dictator without asking us!" :p Joking not very much though...

I'd ask him, but he's dead. Maybe I can get John Edward to contact him.

Oh I'd say that this is what books are for but I wouldn't want you to think that I want to flame you...


Remember, the western countries are not the only ones selling weapons and supporting dictators. Remember, Iraq uses Migs and Soviet tanks, and during the gulf war launched Scuds at Israel. None of these are western made.

Yes, you are right but tell me. Don't you expect the Western Countries to behave in a different way than the Muslims countries ? What distinguishes us by them after all...Isn't it a bit insulting for the western democracies to make such comparisons?

And if we haven't done anything in the past, maybe now is a good time to start. (This whole "the U.S. has done bad things in the past so shouldn't act now" means that it is impossible for a country to 'redeam' itself though good actions.)

Yes I appreciate the ...reversal towards the Good but it doesn't work that way, I am afraid.
Democracy is a complicated issue. It's an ideal that must be turned into a lifestyle so you can't expect Muslims to live and experience Democracy the way Christians or Jews do. It's not that easy. Democracy needs time.Ask Plato, I insist...

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Oh! This explains the mess then!! "He must pay for it!"He became a dictator without asking us!" :p Joking not very much though...

I'm just debunking the whole "we put Saddam in power" argument that anti-war people often use. We didn't put him in power. The U.S. did support him during the Iran/Iraq war but that was because Iraq was considered the "Lesser of 2 evils".

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Yes, you are right but tell me. Don't you expect the Western Countries to behave in a different way than the Muslims countries ? What distinguishes us by them after all...Isn't it a bit insulting for the western democracies to make such comparisons?

I believe in certain things... that genocide and the indiscriminate killing of innocent people is wrong, that people should have free choice in deciding how to live their life, and that people should not be killed for the views that they have.

I expect all countries to have the same views. To allow Muslim cultures to 'behave differently', such as Saddam's killing of innocents, or the imposition of strict Muslim shaari law, while assuming they are just 'behaving different' is wrong in my opinion. They are 'acting differently', but I don't believe their way is 'morally equivalent' to my way. (Arrogant? perhaps, but can anyone on the board really say that they believe that things like genocide and killing people for their views should be allowed in ANY culture?)

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Democracy is a complicated issue. It's an ideal that must be turned into a lifestyle so you can't expect Muslims to live and experience Democracy the way Christians or Jews do. It's not that easy. Democracy needs time.Ask Plato, I insist...

To assume that Muslims cannot handle democracy raises the question, "Why?" They are human, with the same capacities as all of us. They have other countries in the world from which to draw on for experience. (So, it doesn't have to be such a long, slow development process.)

And remember, there are millions of Muslims throughout the world who live in democracies. They seem to have no problem with it.

As for Plato, wasn't she the girl from Facts of Life, who got mixed up with soft-core sex movies and drugs and killed herself?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Segnosaur
I believe in certain things... that genocide and the indiscriminate killing of innocent people is wrong, that people should have free choice in deciding how to live their life, and that people should not be killed for the views that they have.

I am very glad to hear that because I got news for you. In Turkey the Regime that calls itself Democracy tortures its political opponents, in Africa, now that we are talking, 23 different wars are taking place , within the boarders of so called Democracies... do I have to mention what is going on in South America? Probably not!
I am glad to hear that there are people with such sharp sensitivities towards humans rights.

I am with you! I am joining you, just promise me that our next stop, will be Turkey.

I expect all countries to have the same views.

Why? Just because you say so?

To allow Muslim cultures to 'behave differently', such as Saddam's killing of innocents, or the imposition of strict Muslim shaari law, while assuming they are just 'behaving different' is wrong in my opinion.

Funny, because one of the basic rules of Democracy is self-determination.


They are 'acting differently', but I don't believe their way is 'morally equivalent' to my way. (Arrogant? perhaps, but can anyone on the board really say that they believe that things like genocide and killing people for their views should be allowed in ANY culture?)

Arrogant? No! What makes you say that!!! We are not equal after all...

To assume that Muslims cannot handle democracy raises the question, "Why?"
I didn't say that. I said that they perceive and experience Democracy in a different way. Think!!!! People experience football in different ways that's why they join different teams...

And remember, there are millions of Muslims throughout the world who live in democracies. They seem to have no problem with it.

Name one, if you please.

As for Plato, wasn't she the girl from Facts of Life, who got mixed up with soft-core sex movies and drugs and killed herself?

Cute!

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Name one, if you please.Malaysia? :confused:

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Funny, because one of the basic rules of Democracy is self-determination.

Within limits. Basic human rights are those limits. Once an ideology proclaims a rejection of basic human rights, that ideology becomes illegal. Suppression of a group actively attempting to put into practice an illegal ideology is justified.

If liberal minded people accord equal status to illegal, inhuman beliefs and practices, the blessings of liberalism may vanish from the Earth.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I am very glad to hear that because I got news for you. In Turkey the Regime that calls itself Democracy tortures its political opponents, in Africa, now that we are talking, 23 different wars are taking place , within the boarders of so called Democracies... do I have to mention what is going on in South America? Probably not!
I am glad to hear that there are people with such sharp sensitivities towards humans rights.

I am with you! I am joining you, just promise me that our next stop, will be Turkey.

There are problems everywhere. The U.S. has to pick its battles carefully though, because they can't be everwhere. Turkey may have its problems. So does Africa. Saudi Arabia is really bad too (and the U.S. considers them an ally.) But at least there is a superficial legality to going into Iraq.


Originally posted by Cleopatra

Why? Just because you say so?

I just believe that countries SHOULD respect human rights and democracy. (I know many don't. I don't believe they will change any time soon. But I still EXPECT them to behave better, even if they don't. Maybe we are disagreeing on what I mean by 'expect'.)
Originally posted by Cleopatra

Funny, because one of the basic rules of Democracy is self-determination.

Western countries, in addition to implementing democracies, also have constitutions and bills of rights. So, in a way, the democracy (and self-determination) is not absolute. (For example, a majority of people cannot easily suppress people belonging to a minority.) So, whatever democratic institutions are set up in Iraq, protections will need to be made in their consitutions to protect minorities.

[Cleopatra]

Dr.Benway:

Agreed! Just one, tiny BUT!

Double standards in our judgement are not allowed!

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Segnosaur
There are problems everywhere. The U.S. has to pick its battles carefully though, because they can't be everwhere. Turkey may have its problems. So does Africa. Saudi Arabia is really bad too (and the U.S. considers them an ally.) But at least there is a superficial legality to going into Iraq.

Ok, basically I agree because I know how things work BUT when someone decides to play God, he must expect that people will start waiting for him to act like one. You cannot preach about human rights in Iraq and ignore what happens to its border. You know why? If you do so,a terrible thing will happen to you!
You will loose your credibility!


Western countries, in addition to implementing democracies, also have constitutions and bills of rights. So, in a way, the democracy (and self-determination) is not absolute. (For example, a majority of people cannot easily suppress people belonging to a minority.) So, whatever democratic institutions are set up in Iraq, protections will need to be made in their consitutions to protect minorities.

Ok. I just don't want people to forget how we built our Democracies... A lot of blood and ink was shredded...
Important things in life, like ideals or even good wine,need time.

Give them time, give them faith, give them good examples!!!

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I am with you! I am joining you, just promise me that our next stop, will be Turkey.

Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, the Gulf states, Malaysia, Kashmir, the Ivory Coast...

Any reason Turkey ought to be next?

I vote for doing something about the education children are getting in Muslim schools in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Give those places some international aide, in the form of a broader education, Internet access, etc. Learning Qu'ran by rote in Arabic is hardly a marketable skill.

My ex-Muslim friend used to attend a mosque in the Boston area frequented by engineering grad students from Pakistan. A couple of young guys returning from a visit home shared stories with him about rifle practice along the hills near Kashmir. One fellow proudly boasted of hitting a couple of Hindus. Of course, this conversation was pre-9/11.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by DrBenway


Any reason Turkey ought to be next?

Since american troops have camped there I thought that it would be a good idea to continue with Turkey... It really doesn't matter. All it matters to me is to stop judging by double standards.I just can't stand that.

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Since american troops have camped there I thought that it would be a good idea to continue with Turkey... It really doesn't matter. All it matters to me is to stop judging by double standards.I just can't stand that.

I would say Saudi Arabia is worse than Turkey. Hopefully after this war we can get our troops out of there and it will settle down some. If not, then they may well have a revolution like in Iran and we will see ourselves fighting there as well. And that will likely be much worse.

[Cleopatra]

I wish luck to any future expedition...I have heard rumours about a dictator on Mars... hmmmm do you think that you....

[shanek]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Dentist and merchant....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

What about the tinker, the tailor, and the candle-stick maker??? Were they unavailable for interview???? BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Go on. Keep showing everyone the extent of your maturity.