"Breaking the Silence" - Israeli's unhappy with the results of their actions.

[a_unique_person]

The four reservists who created the exhibit said they did so because they wanted Israeli civilians to see what is happening in the Palestinian territories.

One of the four, former Israel Defense Forces soldier Micha Kurtz, said his three years in Hebron changed him for the worse.

"All the soldiers know that nobody knows at home what's really gone on," said Kurtz. "And they have done stuff that they're not happy with and they want people to know about it."




I have said it before, but I'll say it again. A lot of Israeli's are just not happy with what the wedge politics of the extremists have forced them into.

It is not just the Palestinians who suffer from the occupation, it is the Israeli's themselves. By forcing a brutal and dehumanising life on the Palestinians, you become brutal and dehumanising yourself. An act that is just jokes about cockroaches to some, is a life forced on them that they despise to others.



"The IDF teaches soldiers to act according to morals, even in complicated situations including moral dilemmas," the army said in a statement.

IDF military police interrogated three of the former soldiers who organized the exhibit, Haaretz reported on its Web site.

"They are trying to frighten us and other soldiers who have expressed readiness to take part in the project," Kurtz told Haaretz.

The army said it was gathering evidence of violence or vandalism against Palestinians, Haaretz reported.

But while those MPs seized a videotape of the soldiers telling their stories, Kurtz said they left behind the dozens of keys he said Israeli soldiers had taken from Palestinians.

The exhibit is being widely reported and debated among Israelis. Many are asking if these are the actions of a few, or the daily reality of a soldier's life.

[a_unique_person]

And the link http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/25/breaking.silence/index.html

[ssibal]

Got any examples of 'Palestinians' unhappy with the results of their actions (i.e. terrorism)?

[a_unique_person]

If you think that all Palestinians are just a bunch of terrorists, you are an idiot. Thanks for dodging completely the point of the topic, however.

[ssibal]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
If you think that all Palestinians are just a bunch of terrorists, you are an idiot.

If you think that all Israelis are just a bunch of occupiers, you are an idiot.

[shuize]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
If you think that all Palestinians are just a bunch of terrorists, you are an idiot. Thanks for dodging completely the point of the topic, however.

You're right, of course. Not all Palestinians are terrorists. Past polls only show a 60--70% approval rating for suicide bombings on Isreali targets. That leaves between 30 to 40% who are not supportive of such actions. Link (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/pop/02/jun/pop9.htm)

[zenith-nadir]

Contrary to popular belief almost all Israelis don't like the occupation, they don't like to be in the IDF, they don't like wars. But this is not of Israel's chosing it has been thrust upon them by the likes of Arafat, Nasser, Assad, The House of Saud, Saddam, Iran and a host of other racist murderous xenophobes that send women and children to blow up buses and restaurants with C4 vests strapped to their chests. Or when they are feeling particularly innovative a_u_p these same people just fly planes into buildings or behead infidels....

[a_unique_person]

Israel chooses to occupy the West Bank and Gaza. Look at the internal bun fight that erupted when Sharon thought it made strategic sense to leave Gaza.

Also read the article. You don't appear to have done so. Soldiers are saying that people in Israel are not aware of what is being done in their name.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by ssibal


If you think that all Israelis are just a bunch of occupiers, you are an idiot.

I clearly stated exactly this at the start of the topic. Many are not happy at their role in the occupation.

[Skeptic]

"Breaking the Silence"???

Where have you been for the last 30 years?

Whether they're right or wrong, demonstrations against "the corrupting and evil occupation" (or words to that effect) have been common in israel for at least that long.

You might as well write, "Breaking the Silence--brave Democrats openly criticized a Republican President last week!".

Once more, you show you know nothing at all about israel except for what www.electronicintifada.com & co. feed you.

[a_unique_person]

You cannot help yourself, and despite what I say again and again, continue making up utter lies for my motivations and thoughts on this matter. One day, you may wake up to yourself. Sadly, I don't think it will ever happen.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Soldiers are saying that people in Israel are not aware of what is being done in their name. Israel is 5.5 million people on 7000 square miles of land. There are dozens of free newspapers and media outlets from the extreme right to left. Israelis know what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank in spades, trust me.Originally posted by a_unique_person
Many are not happy at their role in the occupation.I don't think there is one single Israeli is happy about the occupation. Had Nasser, Assad, Secretary-General U Thant, King Hussein of Jordan and Arafat not CAUSED the 1967 war we would not be debating it's repercussions 30 years later. Had the Islamofascists not taken over the West Bank and Gaza, thanks to Arafat, there would be no occupation today. Had the Palestinian Authority fulfilled their obligations under ten treaties since 1993 there would be no occupation today.

[Skeptic]

despite what I say again and again, continue making up utter lies for my motivations

The problem, AUP, is that despite what you say again and again, you tend to occassionally slip.

When that happens, you post what you really think--for instance, your claims that the "zionists" control the USA, that israel should just "get used" to being attacked by the Palestinians even if it gives them everything, that a two-year-old killed by a suicide bomber was an "extremist" because he was an "ultra-orthodox jew", that israel--alone of all nations in the world--has no right to exist, etc.

In other words, you weren't careful enough. Despite you loud denials that you hate jews and want israel destroyed, you let your mask slip a bit more often than could be plausiably denied, showing your true face.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You cannot help yourself, and despite what I say again and again, continue making up utter lies for my motivations and thoughts on this matter. One day, you may wake up to yourself. Sadly, I don't think it will ever happen.

Recently you described 400 years of Ottoman rule over Palestine as "occupation" apparently for no other reason than to discredit Zionist negotiations with them. One would think that if you have to go through such mental gymnastics to hold on to your world view, that eventually you would decide it was easier to examine your prejudices and confront them.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Recently you described 400 years of Ottoman rule over Palestine as "occupation" apparently for no other reason than to discredit Zionist negotiations with them. One would think that if you have to go through such mental gymnastics to hold on to your world view, that eventually you would decide it was easier to examine your prejudices and confront them.

Wow. Did he really? I'm not doubting it (I've read enough of his posts to have a fair idea of his POV) but if that's true then the European occupation of North America is no different. Perhaps we should all leave.

To where, I'm not sure.

Edit: I'm not sure about the Mexicans. That's a real conundrum racially speaking.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
Wow. Did he really? I'm not doubting it (I've read enough of his posts to have a fair idea of his POV) but if that's true then the European occupation of North America is no different. Perhaps we should all leave.


Yes, he did really. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870503804) He called it a "colonial posession" too.

I don't think the comparison with European conquest of North America is apt, though. One difference is that the Ottomans are still there, only we call them "Palestinians" now.

[Skeptic]

Wow. Did he really? I'm not doubting it (I've read enough of his posts to have a fair idea of his POV) but if that's true then the European occupation of North America is no different. Perhaps we should all leave.

...or the European occupation of Australia, which is still 150 years shorter than the Ottoman occupation of Palestine. If one was an occupier, so was the other, right?

Is AUP leaving, or, at least, supporting Aboriginie suicide bombers who are hell-bent on kicking out all the foreign colonialist Europeans from the holy Australian land?

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by AUP
It is not just the Palestinians who suffer from the occupation, it is the Israeli's themselves. By forcing a brutal and dehumanising life on the Palestinians, you become brutal and dehumanising yourself. An act that is just jokes about cockroaches to some, is a life forced on them that they despise to others.

In South Africa and in Europe many did not want to see what was being done in their name.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
In South Africa and in Europe many did not want to see what was being done in their name.

It would be encouraging if there were similar exhibits by Palestinian-Arabs who didn't want to see the murders of Israelis carried out in their names. Such mutual displays of awareness from both sides would be something peace could be built upon.

[ssibal]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I clearly stated exactly this at the start of the topic. Many are not happy at their role in the occupation.

So can you say the same for the 'Palestinians?' Are many not happy with their role in the terrorism?

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by ssibal


So can you say the same for the 'Palestinians?' Are many not happy with their role in the terrorism?

It is repeatedly shown, in poll after poll, that the vast majority of Palestinians support terrorism.

That said, there ARE Palestinians that oppose terrorism. And perhaps there are even more than we think. But it's difficult to find out who and how many, since they tend to be killed off as "traitors" by Arafat's henchmen. About one sixth of Palestinian "victims of the Intifada" of the last four years had been killed by other Palestinians for "treason" of this sort.

You know, Afarat? The man who AUP described as "bending over backwards for peace" (... he forgot to add "in our time")

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
despite what I say again and again, continue making up utter lies for my motivations

The problem, AUP, is that despite what you say again and again, you tend to occassionally slip.

When that happens, you post what you really think--for instance, your claims that the "zionists" control the USA, that israel should just "get used" to being attacked by the Palestinians even if it gives them everything, that a two-year-old killed by a suicide bomber was an "extremist" because he was an "ultra-orthodox jew", that israel--alone of all nations in the world--has no right to exist, etc.

In other words, you weren't careful enough. Despite you loud denials that you hate jews and want israel destroyed, you let your mask slip a bit more often than could be plausiably denied, showing your true face.

You are just a lying, stupid, paranoid, idiotic, ********** up ****wit who lives in a cesspool of ****.

I have not let anything 'slip'. I will ask for, and never get, anything like an apology from you for these utterly baseless, relentless and dishonest lies.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


You are just a lying, stupid, paranoid, idiotic, f**ked up f**kwit who lives in a cesspool of s**t.

I have not let anything 'slip'. I will ask for, and never get, anything like an apology from you for these utterly baseless, relentless and dishonest lies.

You just let a whole lotta stuff slip, AUP, including a disc by the look of things. Why not address Mycroft's point? Calling 400 years of Ottoman rule a "colonial occupation" is absurd, wouldn't you agree?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jocko


You just let a whole lotta stuff slip, AUP, including a disc by the look of things. Why not address Mycroft's point? Calling 400 years of Ottoman rule a "colonial occupation" is absurd, wouldn't you agree?

I am not going to put up with these 'letting the mask slip' lies anymore.

Ottoman rule was an occupation, it was pretty common in those days of empire. It doesn't mean the Arabs wanted it. When WWI came an it was opportune for the English, they used the Arabs as guerilla troops.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I am not going to put up with these 'letting the mask slip' lies anymore.

Then stop lying so much. And watch the potty mouth.

Ottoman rule was an occupation, it was pretty common in those days of empire. It doesn't mean the Arabs wanted it. When WWI came an it was opportune for the English, they used the Arabs as guerilla troops.

So, is it fair to say that 65 million years of mammals ruling the earth is nothing more than an "occupation" until the dinosaurs rise again? I'm sure they wouldn't care for what we've done with the place either.

Serious question, AUP. How long must an outside culture stay before it's not considered colonial aggression in your book? A century? A millenium? Lemme guess... just slightly shorter than the amount of time the Palestinians have been there, since they stole it from somebody else, am I right?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic


It is repeatedly shown, in poll after poll, that the vast majority of Palestinians support terrorism.

That said, there ARE Palestinians that oppose terrorism. And perhaps there are even more than we think. But it's difficult to find out who and how many, since they tend to be killed off as "traitors" by Arafat's henchmen. About one sixth of Palestinian "victims of the Intifada" of the last four years had been killed by other Palestinians for "treason" of this sort.

You know, Afarat? The man who AUP described as "bending over backwards for peace" (... he forgot to add "in our time")

If you are going to supply a quote, you have to supply the source.

[Skeptic]

You just let a whole lotta stuff slip, AUP, including a disc by the look of things.

If AUP ever really let slip a disc in his back, he'd blame it on zionism.

[Skeptic]

Serious question, AUP. How long must an outside culture stay before it's not considered colonial aggression in your book? A century? A millenium? Lemme guess... just slightly shorter than the amount of time the Palestinians have been there, since they stole it from somebody else, am I right?

...or exactly two days less than the time between the day the first ship of white convicts arrived in Australia and the day AUP was born...

[Skeptic]

You are just a lying, stupid, paranoid, idiotic, f**ked up f**kwit

You forgot "jew".

who lives in a cesspool of s**t.

...and to think I accused you of being biased against israel...

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Skeptic
You are just a lying, stupid, paranoid, idiotic, f**ked up f**kwit


who lives in a cesspool of s**t.

...and to think I accused you of being biased against israel...

Look at the bright side. At least he's offered an honest opinion and shown his stripes... which I guess has to be considered progress.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
It would be encouraging if there were similar exhibits by Palestinian-Arabs who didn't want to see the murders of Israelis carried out in their names. Such mutual displays of awareness from both sides would be something peace could be built upon.

Exhibits are not enough. Stopping murdering innocent children would be a better first step upon which to build peace.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jocko


Look at the bright side. At least he's offered an honest opinion and shown his stripes... which I guess has to be considered progress.

What stripes have I shown? Skeptic has shown his. As soon as I demonstrate that Israelis are not happy with where their leaders have taken them, it is time to once again state snide, unsubstantiated insinuations about my having a real agenda, one that I am too gutless to openly state here. F**k you skeptic, you are the gutless one. Try having a look at the article, and what real IDF members are brave enough to state, even though some of them have to do it anonymously. Then start on me with the ad-homs because you don't have the guts to face up to yourself.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Exhibits are not enough. Stopping murdering innocent children would be a better first step upon which to build peace. Wow is that ever the pot calling the kettle black. How about stop indoctrinating children to martyr themselves on Israeli soil. How about stop teaching children Israel doesn't really exsist. How about stop teaching children suicide bombers are heros. How about stop teaching children this (http://www.edume.org/reports/9/3.htm) orthis (http://www.edume.org/reports/9/4.htm) or this (http://www.edume.org/reports/9/6.htm).

[a_unique_person]

The article does not mention it, but one of the pictures is of Palestinian children playing a game. It is a game called "line up for a body search". You wonder what sort of a life they will grow up to.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The article does not mention it, but one of the pictures is of Palestinian children playing a game. It is a game called "line up for a body search". You wonder what sort of a life they will grow up to. See a_u_p this is where you miss the boat. It is not Israels fault. Israel did not cause the 1967 war. Israel did not vote for the Palestinian Authority in 1993. Israel doesn't run the Palestinian Authority. Ergo, the Palestinian Authority is RESPONSIBLE for what happens to Palestinians, not Israel.

If the Palestinian Authority sponsors terrorism, a known and proven fact, and if the Palestinian Authority allows it's terrorists to use Palestinian civilian areas for cover and concealment then the Palestinian Authority is the party responsible for making Palestinian civilians the target of retaliation.

You don't blame the government of Tazmania for crime and enforcement of the law in Australia do you?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
See a_u_p this is where you miss the boat. It is not Israels fault. Israel did not cause the 1967 war. Israel did not vote for the Palestinian Authority in 1993. Israel doesn't run the Palestinian Authority. Ergo, the Palestinian Authority is RESPONSIBLE for what happens to Palestinians, not Israel.

If the Palestinian Authority sponsors terrorism, a known and proven fact, and if the Palestinian Authority allows it's terrorists to use Palestinian civilian areas for cover and concealment then the Palestinian Authority is the party responsible for making Palestinian civilians the target of retaliation.

You don't blame the government of Tazmania for crime and enforcement of the law in Australia do you?

Israel was after a war, they were taunting the Arabs. When is the best time to attack your enemy? When he is in an attacking posture. He is less able to defend himself. Moshe Dayan, as I have said many times before, openly admitted that Israel taunted the Arabs before that war. They were not trying to placate them. Israel was ready for a war of expansion.

There is nowhere on the Gaza strip that is not inhabited. It is one of the most densely populate places on earth.

However, in regards to your first point, why not address the issues raised in this photo exhibition? That is the whole point of this thread. The other points have been gone into many times in other threads. Please resurrect one of those threads, or make a new one.

[Skeptic]

What stripes have I shown?

Well, calling israel a "cesspool of s**t" is, like the case where you claimed a two-year-old killed by a suicide bomber was an "extremist" because he was an "ultra-orthodox jew", is a case of your mask slipping and showing what you REALLY think about israel and jews.

It shows the ugly hate that possesses you, the hate behind all your high-flying rhetoric about "peace" and "justice" and "human rights" in "occupied Palestine".

Actually, in this case, your foul-mouthed, hysterical reply was not a case of your mask slipping, but more accurately a case of your mask slipping, falling to the ground, breaking into a million pieces, and being covered over with dirt.

You were posting in great anger... and when you are really angry, you (like most people) let what you really think slip out, unitentionally.

It is ironic that you let your mask slip off so totally in the very reply where you denied that it ever slipped off at all (or ever existed, for that matter), but then again, there's a certain justice in that, don't you think?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Israel was after a war, they were taunting the Arabs.Hahahahaha....that takes the cake a_u_p. You really crack me up.

In 1967 not one Arab state recognized Israel's right to exist, the PLO under Arafat was lauching wave after wave of terror attacks from Jordan, Syria was shelling Israel from the Golan heights, Nasser evicted the United Nations Emergency Force from the Sinai, began re-militarization of the Sinai and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Your characterization of these well-documented historical facts is.... "Israel was after a war, they were taunting the Arabs"....

:dl:

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Hahahahaha....that takes the cake a_u_p. You really crack me up.

In 1967 not one Arab state recognized Israel's right to exist, the PLO under Arafat was lauching wave after wave of terror attacks from Jordan, Syria was shelling Israel from the Golan heights, Nasser evicted the United Nations Emergency Force from the Sinai, began re-militarization of the Sinai and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Your characterization of these well-documented historical facts is.... "Israel was after a war, they were taunting the Arabs"....



That's right, duck the point of the thread, again. I didn't expect anything else from you. It doesn't come up in your list of '100 hundred answers to any issue on Israel" you consult. Therefore, you don't know how to deal with it.

However, don't argue with me, argue with Moshe Dayan.

http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/1967war.html



I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

Moshe Dayan posthumously speaks out on the Golan Heights

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
What stripes have I shown?

Well, calling israel a "cesspool of s**t" is,

I was referring to your mind, not Israel, you paranoid little twerp.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I was referring to your mind, not Israel, you paranoid little twerp.

I "live" inside my own mind?

Sure, buddy. That makes sense.

(AUP is looking for "plausible deniability" again.)

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
That's right, duck the point of the thread, again. I didn't expect anything else from you. It doesn't come up in your list of '100 hundred answers to any issue on Israel" you consult. Therefore, you don't know how to deal with it. However, don't argue with me, argue with Moshe Dayan.
http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/1967war.html
I responded to the jist of the thread many posts ago. I will do it again. "Contrary to popular belief almost all Israelis don't like the occupation, they don't like to be in the IDF, they don't like wars."

As far as wrmea.com is concerned, is there any website you don't quote from that is anti-Israel? A quote from Yitzhak Rabin in 1968 and a quote from Moshe Dayan does not change history. But since you are into quotes here's one;There is no longer a way out of our present situation except by forging a road toward our objective, violently and by force, over a sea of blood and under a horizon blazing with fire. - Gamal Abdel Nasser You are starting to remind me of a guy who would say "well she deserved to get raped cuz she 'provoked' the rapist by wearing a low-cut top"...

[Jocko]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The article does not mention it, but one of the pictures is of Palestinian children playing a game. It is a game called "line up for a body search". You wonder what sort of a life they will grow up to.

I would ask their parents and teachers.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Exhibits are not enough. Stopping murdering innocent children would be a better first step upon which to build peace.

I agree, but there doesn't seem to be any significant support for that among the Palestinian-Arabs. If such displays were allowed from the Palestinian-Arab side, the display itself wouldn't stop the violence, but it would be a good first step towards mutual understanding.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic


I "live" inside my own mind?

Sure, buddy. That makes sense.

(AUP is looking for "plausible deniability" again.)
You are a paranoid little twerp. You cannot answer one point raised in the topic, because if you do, your house of cards will collapse. You will no longer be able to hate as simply as you do. You will be forced to confront your own self.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jocko


I would ask their parents and teachers.

After 40 years of occupation by a military force, you can see the results in the adults right now.

[Skeptic]

You are a paranoid little twerp.

Well, 2000 years of being subjected to Christian love and charity will do that to you.

Just ask the Aboriginies.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
You are a paranoid little twerp.

Well, 2000 years of being subjected to Christian love and charity will do that to you.

Just ask the Aboriginies.

You still cannot adress the points raised in by this thread. You are too afraid to face up to yourself.

I have said many times that the aboriginals have still not been treated properly, and have still not recieved justice. I vote for those who have a platform of doing more for them.

[demon]

quote:
"The four reservists who created the exhibit said they did so because they wanted Israeli civilians to see what is happening in the Palestinian territories."

AUP:
"I have said it before, but I'll say it again. A lot of Israeli's are just not happy with what the wedge politics of the extremists have forced them into."

Very true and the the brave Jewish groups and individuals that speak out in ever increasing numbers bears witness to that.
These are the heros we should be looking out to promote. Civil courage at its best.
They are the people who will actually do some good for their country, the 'battle field heros' rarely do.

Of course, our ever present Zionist lobby here and elsewhere aren`t ever going to praise these groups, they are either "self-hating jews", or just deluded.
Reminds me of the time I questioned Mycroft about the Jews who question Zionist expansionist policy...they are suffering from some psychological disorder apparently.

[Skeptic]

You still cannot adress the points raised in by this thread. You are too afraid to face up to yourself.

What point? That four israeli reservists dislike the occupation and claim it's bad???

Well, for the record, not only am I well aware of these arguments, I (in my naive days) actually particiapted in such demonstrations.

What changed my mind is something else: the realization, after Arafat started his terror war in 2000, that as far as the Palestinians are concerned, it is not "the occupation" which is the cause of the conflict, but israel's very existence; and that all the talk about "ending the occupation" is merely part of the "Stage Plan" from 1974 fo israel's destruction by stages, endorsed officially--and never recanted to this day--by Arafat and the leadership.

Which is why I now view "end the corrupting occupation!" claims as what they really are, namely, "help the stage plan for israel's destruction!".

I have said many times that the aboriginals have still not been treated properly, and have still not recieved justice. I vote for those who have a platform of doing more for them.

...like giving them back their land? You know, that continent you stole from them?

[a_unique_person]

Despite your repeated lies, I have never asked for the destruction of Israel. I do think that if Israel is ever to get past the current situation, it is going to have to give some unconditional restitution to Palestine.

Ditto, Australia with the Aboriginals. The 'facts on the ground' issues won't ever go away. You can't send 20 million Australians anywhere else in the world. Israel is not going anywhere.

The bad faith on both sides after Oslo only demonstrates that although both sides want peace, they are not prepared to give up enough to get it yet. The hardline extremists in Israel want nothing less than the total destruction of Palestine. This has been clearly shown in the internal brawl of Sharon's plan for a strategic withdrawal from Gaza. Hence, the continuing violence.

Ignore the warnings of this exhibition. Do you really want young Israelis growing up to be like you?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
You still cannot adress the points raised in by this thread. You are too afraid to face up to yourself.

What point? That four israeli reservists dislike the occupation and claim it's bad???

Well, for the record, not only am I well aware of these arguments, I (in my naive days) actually particiapted in such demonstrations.

What changed my mind is something else: the realization, after Arafat started his terror war in 2000, that as far as the Palestinians are concerned, it is not "the occupation" which is the cause of the conflict, but israel's very existence; and that all the talk about "ending the occupation" is merely part of the "Stage Plan" from 1974 fo israel's destruction by stages, endorsed officially--and never recanted to this day--by Arafat and the leadership.

Which is why I now view "end the corrupting occupation!" claims as what they really are, namely, "help the stage plan for israel's destruction!".

I have said many times that the aboriginals have still not been treated properly, and have still not recieved justice. I vote for those who have a platform of doing more for them.

...like giving them back their land? You know, that continent you stole from them?

You have just let your mask slip. Somewhere, deep inside, there is a human being trying to get out.

[zenith-nadir]

Notice how a_u_p never uses the words "palestinian terrorists" or "Islamofascists" or "jihadists"...you know those happy fun people living under the Palestinian Authority's protection in Gaza and the West Bank who send women and children to blow up innocent civilians indiscriminately, (Hamas, Al Aksa, Islamic Jihad...). Those same people who have been attacking Israel since the 1960's loooooooooong before Oslo and the occupation. Those same people who force the IDF to return again and again to Gaza and the West Bank. Those same people who blew up the Fulbright Scholarship convoy in Gaza but have miraculously never been caught. Those same people who blew up 21 Israeli kids at a disco. Those same people who blew up 19 Israelis at an Arab-owned Haifa restaurant.

Hell, a_u_p doesn't even acknowledge that they do that because they are insane and brainwashed from birth to martyr themselves, or that Saddam used to pay their familes $25,000 US, or that Arafat eggs them on to do it, they only do it "because of occupation"....the words and excuses a_u_p uses and choses not use are very telling.

Demon on the other hand throws around the term "zionist lobby" like Mahathir Mohamad did when he got a standing ovation at the Islamic summit when he said that Muslims should unite against a few million Jews who "rule the world by proxy".


(edited to add)

Don't believe me a_u_p?

source (http://encarta.msn.com/text_761580639___4/Hamas.html) After denouncing the September 1993 Oslo Accords, Hamas increased its strikes against Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as in Israel proper. It boycotted the January 1996 Palestinian presidential and legislative council elections. The boycott was in part because Hamas knew its showing would not be impressive, but also Hamas wanted to avoid giving legitimacy to the PLO’s recognition of Israel and to the secular nationalist camp that the PLO represented. Under the accord, Israel, the United States, and Western European nations asked the newly created Palestinian National Authority (PNA), headed by PLO leader Yasir Arafat, to suppress Hamas’s attacks. Arafat periodically restrained Hamas terrorist actions against Israel but he did not suppress them altogether.

[a_unique_person]

Hamas is not the ruling body of Palestine. It does not represent all Palestinians. But you already knew that.

The point is, that you cannot respond to the thread topic.

[demon]

Max Hastings returns to Israel for the first time in 25 years ( The Spectator )
http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php?
table=old&section=current&issue=2004-06-26&id=4756

quote:
"Yet for any chance of lasting peace, the Palestinians must be given terms — even if these are imposed upon them — which offer them a chance of creating a viable society."

Not sure any comment required.

quote:
"There is that crackle of electricity, generated by the presence of five million representatives of the cleverest race on earth. Their wit and passions crowd the hot air."

LOL!

If they'd learned anything from history they'd have realised that the sucessful colonisations are the ones that leave no trace of another, pre-existing, peoples.

I think the "cleverest" colonisations were done by dirty theivin' old blighty, Australia - beautiful, emptied, land - New Zealand, America... they're stood the test of time.

Israel? bah, wouldn't give it another hundred years. Just a malformed parasite, leeching off of the most uninformed population God/the Devil saw fit to spew up, since the Romans.

Endless war is the only way that Israel will achieve any lasting foothold in Arab soil, and for now they're exploiting the stupidity of Captain America, but when he dies (God willing, soon) what then?

A nuclear extermination of Palestinians? can't do that, it'd be more terminal that "cutting your nose off to spite your face"...

A rapid migration back to Europe... a stunning revelation in some lost Torah passage about the famous covenant - it was a Time Share! - maybe mass conversion to Hassidic Judaism, along with loud renunciation of Zionist-blasphamy...

Clever my arse, as they say on the West Bank.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Hamas is not the ruling body of Palestine. It does not represent all Palestinians. But you already knew that.Yes. Hamas is not the ruling party of Palestine. Then why does the Palestinian Authority allow Hamas to launch attacks from within Palestinian territory? Is that not a direct threat to the authority of the cough...Palestinian Authority? How come the Palestinian Authority funds the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades? After all the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades is part of Fateh which is the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority...and who's the head of fateh a_u_p? Why Arafat is. Why does the Palestinian Authority allow Islamic Jihad to operate freely in Palestinian territory? If your answer to any of these questions is "because of Israel or because of the occupation" then that is not an answer but an excuse.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The point is, that you cannot respond to the thread topic. As I said before, twice now, the occupation is bad, Israelis do not like the occupation, they don't like serving in Gaza or the West Bank, they don't like spending millions on defense to protect themselves from the islamofascists. But alas, we come again to the reason they are there, because the Palestinian Authority refuses to reign in Hamas, Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades and Islamic Jihad.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Hamas is not the ruling body of Palestine. It does not represent all Palestinians. But you already knew that.


The sooner you realize that they most certainly DO represent all Palestinians (until cooler heads find their collective voice and use it), the sooner you'll see why the Palestinians are in the mess they are.

[hgc]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

... As soon as I demonstrate that Israelis are not happy with where their leaders have taken them, ... Hardly the point. If many Israelis aren't happy with where their leaders have taken them, they're way more unhappy about where the Palestinians want to put them -- into the sea. That's why even a Labor government would not relinquish territory during a suicide bombing campaign. You remember how it began in 2000, right? During a Labor government let by Ehud Barak, who was in the middle of negotiating a peace treaty.

So in case you're fantasizing that there is a significant constituency in Israel for giving up the relative security, for what it's worth, of being able to fight Palestinian terrorists on their own ground, rather than only trying to stop them at the border or inside Israel, you're nuts.

Peace first, then an end to occupation.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by Jocko


The sooner you realize that they most certainly DO represent all Palestinians (until cooler heads find their collective voice and use it), the sooner you'll see why the Palestinians are in the mess they are.

To be sure, this doesn't mean that all Palestinians support them, even if most do. But the Nazis never constituted ALL of the Germans, either: it's just that they, first, WERE very popular and supported by the mass of the population (post-war denials notwithstanding), set the policy 100%, and any German brave enough to disagree was hounded, tortured, and killed.

Same here. Sure, PLO and Hamas' genocidal aims are not supported by ALL Palestinians, but they are supported by most of them, set the policy 100%, and the small minority brave or moral enough to disagree is hounded and killed.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic


To be sure, this doesn't mean that all Palestinians support them, even if most do. But the Nazis never constituted ALL of the Germans, either: it's just that they, first, WERE very popular and supported by the mass of the population (post-war denials notwithstanding), set the policy 100%, and any German brave enough to disagree was hounded, tortured, and killed.

Same here. Sure, PLO and Hamas' genocidal aims are not supported by ALL Palestinians, but they are supported by most of them, set the policy 100%, and the small minority brave or moral enough to disagree is hounded and killed.

We have been over ALL of this before.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


We have been over ALL of this before.

Ain't that the truth.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by demon
I think the "cleverest" colonisations were done by dirty theivin' old blighty, Australia - beautiful, emptied, land - New Zealand, America... they're stood the test of time.

Israel? bah, wouldn't give it another hundred years. Just a malformed parasite, leeching off of the most uninformed population God/the Devil saw fit to spew up, since the Romans.

Endless war is the only way that Israel will achieve any lasting foothold in Arab soil, and for now they're exploiting the stupidity of Captain America, but when he dies (God willing, soon) what then?


Wow. Australians are dirty thieves, Israelis are malformed parasites, Palestinian-Arabs are the most uninformed population ever spewed up by God/the Devil...and then you wish America dead.

I think that's the most concentrated hatred I've seen outside of Stormfront.org.

[a_unique_person]

One of the new features of the modern world, post WWII, was supposed to be the end of empires and colonialism. It was so apparent from the past how much pain and suffering they caused to those under rule. Perhaps Demon has just been on the bottle again? Australia was the scene of much killing and theft from the inhabitants. The total native population of Tasmania was wiped out, and it was the scene of a total manhunt for any remainging aboriginals. No pure blood aboriginals survived that time.

Anyway, what do you think of the topic of this thread?

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Jocko
Ain't that the truth.

I think that's his way of saying, The last time we had this discussion I failed to make any coherent argument, so this time I'll just remark that we've had this discussion before and maybe someone will interpret that as a draw.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


I think that's his way of saying, The last time we had this discussion I failed to make any coherent argument, so this time I'll just remark that we've had this discussion before and maybe someone will interpret that as a draw.

Once again, putting words in my mouth. I've already blasted Skeptic for saying what I really think.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
One of the new features of the modern world, post WWII, was supposed to be the end of empires and colonialism.

Where do you read your history? Can you name one WWII era world leader who said WWII was about colonialism?

C'mon, just one.

I bet you ignore this.

Originally posted by a_unique_person Anyway, what do you think of the topic of this thread?

I have a couple thoughts:

I think war is a terrible thing. I think there is nothing in the world more natural than a soldier saying how terrible war is. I think it's likely that in every war that ever was in all of history, there were soldiers so disillusioned with the brutality inherent in war, they spoke against it at the first opportunity. I think this is something that will happen regardless of the necessity of the war.

I also remember you used to have a thread for this type of post. Every time you found an article about an Israeli soldier protesting the war in some way, you would resurrect that thread and post it there.

I also remember when you finally let that thread die. It was right after a discussion you and I had about the Oslo agreement. I pointed out after the Oslo agreement was signed and Arafat had just received a bunch of weapons for his "police force" and Israel had paid a lot of money to train his "security force" the rate of terrorism had doubled, that Arafat had not only reneged on his promise to curb terror, but he seemed to be promoting it. You replied with an article you dug up somewhere saying the statistics were misleading, but when I demonstrated (several times before it penetrated your skull) that your own article showed an increase in terror, you said you would "do some more reading" and get back to it. So far you have not, though it’s been many months.

I wonder if you don’t resurrect that thread anymore for this type of post because you would rather that discussion be forgotten.

Just a thought.

[Virgil]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Where do you read your history? Can you name one WWII era world leader who said WWII was about colonialism?

C'mon, just one.

I bet you ignore this.







wasn't the italian in ethiopia/etria war in ca.1935-37 a colonial thing?


V

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Where do you read your history? Can you name one WWII era world leader who said WWII was about colonialism?

C'mon, just one.

I bet you ignore this.



I have a couple thoughts:

I think war is a terrible thing. I think there is nothing in the world more natural than a soldier saying how terrible war is. I think it's likely that in every war that ever was in all of history, there were soldiers so disillusioned with the brutality inherent in war, they spoke against it at the first opportunity. I think this is something that will happen regardless of the necessity of the war.

I also remember you used to have a thread for this type of post. Every time you found an article about an Israeli soldier protesting the war in some way, you would resurrect that thread and post it there.

I also remember when you finally let that thread die. It was right after a discussion you and I had about the Oslo agreement. I pointed out after the Oslo agreement was signed and Arafat had just received a bunch of weapons for his "police force" and Israel had paid a lot of money to train his "security force" the rate of terrorism had doubled, that Arafat had not only reneged on his promise to curb terror, but he seemed to be promoting it. You replied with an article you dug up somewhere saying the statistics were misleading, but when I demonstrated (several times before it penetrated your skull) that your own article showed an increase in terror, you said you would "do some more reading" and get back to it. So far you have not, though it’s been many months.

I wonder if you don’t resurrect that thread anymore for this type of post because you would rather that discussion be forgotten.

Just a thought.

You almost managed to stay on topic for the length of one paragraph. Do you have ADD?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Where do you read your history? Can you name one WWII era world leader who said WWII was about colonialism?

C'mon, just one.

I bet you ignore this.



The whold end of WWII/UN creation thing was supposed to be about new principles to be upheld. Sovereign nations, peace on earth and all that touchy/feely stuff, with a Security Council with permanent members thrown in just so we didn't get too deluded about what was happening.

Look here http://www.un.org/english/.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft

I think war is a terrible thing. I think there is nothing in the world more natural than a soldier saying how terrible war is. I think it's likely that in every war that ever was in all of history, there were soldiers so disillusioned with the brutality inherent in war, they spoke against it at the first opportunity. I think this is something that will happen regardless of the necessity of the war.


You are saying, then, that the war is necessary?

[Meadmaker]

It seems people can't even talk about Israel without hatred rearing its ugly head. How much more difficult must it be for the people who live in that part of the world.

It's a really ugly situation, isn't it? I don't see very many people doing anything to help. On the other hand, I can't imagine what they would do if they wanted to.

To my way of thinking, as long as people think of Jews as somehow different from other people, and as long as people think of "this land" as "ours", the problems can't be soved.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The whold end of WWII/UN creation thing was supposed to be about new principles to be upheld. Sovereign nations, peace on earth and all that touchy/feely stuff, with a Security Council with permanent members thrown in just so we didn't get too deluded about what was happening.

Look here http://www.un.org/english/.

So what you're saying is you can't find one world leader from the world war two era who said the war had anything to do with colonialism.

You linked to the UN, can you find any statements from the UN about colonialism?

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You are saying, then, that the war is necessary?

War is a terrible thing. It's understandable if someone comes back from war disillusioned about its purpose, especially when he come from a democratic society where individual opinions are valued even when they differ from the policy of the government. We can sympathize with these men's feelings, even if we disagree with them on the issues. Finding a hadfull of people who express these opinions is not evidence either way about the correctness of the war, any war.

After almost a year, I find it hard to believe you have any doubt about my position on the Israeli/Palestinian-Arab conflict. I believe the government of Israel has both a right and an obligation to defend its citizens against terror, and I also believe that peace between these peoples will require the active participation of the Palestinian-Arabs

[demon]

Mycroft:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by demon
I think the "cleverest" colonisations were done by dirty theivin' old blighty, Australia - beautiful, emptied, land - New Zealand, America... they're stood the test of time.

Israel? bah, wouldn't give it another hundred years. Just a malformed parasite, leeching off of the most uninformed population God/the Devil saw fit to spew up, since the Romans.

Endless war is the only way that Israel will achieve any lasting foothold in Arab soil, and for now they're exploiting the stupidity of Captain America, but when he dies (God willing, soon) what then?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow. Australians are dirty thieves, Israelis are malformed parasites, Palestinian-Arabs are the most uninformed population ever spewed up by God/the Devil...and then you wish America dead.

I think that's the most concentrated hatred I've seen outside of Stormfront.org.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think you are intentionally misreading what I said...let me correct you.

"Wow. Australians are dirty thieves"...I think the "cleverest" colonisations were done by dirty theivin' old BLIGHTY.

"Israelis are malformed parasites"...ISRAEL is a malformed parasite.

"Palestinian-Arabs are the most uninformed population ever spewed up by God/the Devil"...I don`t mean the Palestinians, the leeched of population are the Americans, Israel takes them for a ride to the tune of billions of dollars for their repressions and occupation.
But now you mention it, they do also leech of the Palestinians, glad you reminded me of that. And one other thing, if you actually knew any Palestininans you would know they are not uninformed, quite the opposite. You jumping to the conclusion that I meant the Palestinians in this instance (not "Palestinian-Arabs", you Zionist myth maker), reveals your own prejudices

"and then you wish America dead"...I refered to "Captian America", a clear reference to American Ideology as practiced abroad, past and present.

"I think that's the most concentrated hatred I've seen outside of Stormfront.org."

Really? Try the Likud party sometime of your own heroes, Pipes and Horowitz. They are awful. Their outlooks are fundamentally undemocratic, racist and frankly owe more to Likudnik policy than US foreign policy needs.
Pipe's articles on Arabs are simply disgraceful. Horowitz and Pipe's attacks on campus critics of Israel are clearly McCarthyist and now their efforts may lead to legislation that will affect Professors' ability to get funding if they criticise Israel or US Policy.
That triangle has enough hate to blow up the world 100 times over.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


War is a terrible thing. It's understandable if someone comes back from war disillusioned about its purpose, especially when he come from a democratic society where individual opinions are valued even when they differ from the policy of the government. We can sympathize with these men's feelings, even if we disagree with them on the issues. Finding a hadfull of people who express these opinions is not evidence either way about the correctness of the war, any war.

After almost a year, I find it hard to believe you have any doubt about my position on the Israeli/Palestinian-Arab conflict. I believe the government of Israel has both a right and an obligation to defend its citizens against terror, and I also believe that peace between these peoples will require the active participation of the Palestinian-Arabs

Many of these IDF members feel, however, that actions taken out by the IDF have no relationship to security. Quite the opposite, they serve only to antagonise and humiliate. Hardly the means of securing a peaceful resolution to this ongoing war. They also appear to think that they are causing abuse to children. Hardly the stuff of self defense.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


So what you're saying is you can't find one world leader from the world war two era who said the war had anything to do with colonialism.

You linked to the UN, can you find any statements from the UN about colonialism?

The UN is where you go, from the pre-amble to the charter



PREAMBLE

WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED
to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and
to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and

to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and

to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,



AND FOR THESE ENDS
to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and

to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and

to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and

to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples,


HAVE RESOLVED TO COMBINE OUR EFFORTS TO ACCOMPLISH THESE AIMS
Accordingly, our respective Governments, through representatives assembled in the city of San Francisco, who have exhibited their full powers found to be in good and due form, have agreed to the present Charter of the United Nations and do hereby establish an international organization to be known as the United Nations.

......

Article 2
The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.

The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.

All Members, in order to ensure to all of them the rights and benefits resulting from membership, shall fulfill in good faith the obligations assumed by them in accordance with the present Charter.

All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.

All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

[zenith-nadir]

War is bad a_u_p. Really crappy things happen in wars. The Arabs declared war on Israel on May 15 1948 because of UN Resolution 181. That's when the combined forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded Israel. Israel has technically been at war for 56 years! There are only two Arab nations in the world who have made peace with Israel, they are Egypt and Jordan. Think about that a_u_p, Israel did not declare war on the Arabs, the Arabs declared war on Israel. And after 56 years of war if a few soldiers are disillusioned by war then that shows the humanity of those people.

If only the Arab dicatorships, (Arafat's included), would tire of sending teens, women and children to blow up jews this war may actually end, the IDF will go home and the Palestinians, (the pawns in the Arab-led war), can live in peace.

[a_unique_person]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zenith-nadir
War is bad a_u_p. Really crappy things happen in wars. The Arabs declared war on Israel on May 15 1948 because of UN Resolution 181. That's when the combined forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded Israel. Israel has technically been at war for 56 years! There are only two Arab nations in the world who have made peace with Israel, they are Egypt and Jordan. Think about that a_u_p, Israel did not declare war on the Arabs, the Arabs declared war on Israel. And after 56 years of war if a few soldiers are disillusioned by war then that shows the humanity of those people.

If only the Arab dicatorships, (Arafat's included), would tire of sending teens, women and children to blow up jews this war may actually end, the IDF will go home and the Palestinians, (the pawns in the Arab-led war), can live in peace. [/QUOT

Bulls**t. Then the extremists in Israel will just continue with their invasion. Idiot.

You have, however, not addressed the issue of the topic. The troops are not complaining about killing fighters, or defending Israel. They are complaining about being dehumanised themselves when many of their actions only serve to defrage, humiliate and dehumanise the Palestinians.

As a woman said in an Israeli coffee shop after one bombing, we are very stubborn, but so are they. The idea that this whole issue is driven by the Palestinians is so simple minded as to stagger belief.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Bulls**t. Then the extremists in Israel will just continue with their invasion. Idiot. Invasion of what? Oh, that's right I forgot, jews can't live beside Palestinians because they are jewish...my mistake...Heil Hitler! ...by the way a_u_p what was the West Bank called before it was renamed by Jordan in 1949? (This should be good...:D )

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You have, however, not addressed the issue of the topic.I have, three times now, you just refuse to read those parts.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Invasion of what? Oh, that's right I forgot, jews can't live beside Palestinians because they are jewish...my mistake...Heil Hitler! ...by the way a_u_p what was the West Bank called before it was renamed by Jordan in 1949? (This should be good...:D )



Back on comfortable ground I see, hence the smilie. You have this answer on your list.

The invasion, of course, is the continuing process of creating settlements. As has been shown here already, it involves uprooting Palestinians from their homes. In fact, some of the exhibition documents this process. A Palestinians shopkeeper goes home at night, the next day, his shop is now a settler's home.

The Likud, and you already know this, so I don't know why I have to repeat it, has many members who see anything less than an eventual return of Israel to it's "Biblical" borders as betrayal. The vote to overturn Sharon's proposal to withdraw from the West Bank was won easily. Sharon had to pull a procedural move of genuine Stalinist proportions and sack two Cabinet members, who he knew would make him lose the vote in the cabinet, so he would have the numbers to win.

Right from the start of Oslo, there were Israelis working as hard as they could to expand the settlements, even though they knew they were deelply antagonistic to the Palestinians, and likely to cause a strong reaction.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Israel is 5.5 million people on 7000 square miles of land. There are dozens of free newspapers and media outlets from the extreme right to left. Israelis know what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank in spades, trust me.I don't think there is one single Israeli is happy about the occupation. Had Nasser, Assad, Secretary-General U Thant, King Hussein of Jordan and Arafat not CAUSED the 1967 war we would not be debating it's repercussions 30 years later. Had the Islamofascists not taken over the West Bank and Gaza, thanks to Arafat, there would be no occupation today. Had the Palestinian Authority fulfilled their obligations under ten treaties since 1993 there would be no occupation today.

It is worth pointing out, yet again, that Mossad was party to the setting up of Hamas. Blowback in a big way.

If Israelis already know what is being done in their name, then the soldiers who have put on the exhibition are lying. They clearly were surprised by what was going on in the occupation. Perhaps they are just stupid.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
It is worth pointing out, yet again, that Mossad was party to the setting up of Hamas. Blowback in a big way.Propoganda 101, that is almost as true as the moon is made of green cheese. But for the jury please provide the evidence how the Mossad "created" Hamas. I can't wait for your so-called evidence. Meanwhile on Earth Hamas grew out of the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood movement that arose in Egypt.

What was the West Bank called before it was renamed in 1949 a_u_p?

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by demon
"Israelis are malformed parasites"...ISRAEL is a malformed parasite.

Of course, the characterization of an entire nation as a parasite shouldn't be considered racist. :@@:

Originally posted by demon
But now you mention it, they do also leech of the Palestinians, glad you reminded me of that. And one other thing, if you actually knew any Palestininans you would know they are not uninformed, quite the opposite.

Don't forget I was commenting on your words. My understamding is the Palestinian-Arabs are among the best educated in the Arab world. You're right, in assuming you meant the Palestinian-Arabs, I was underestimating your racism.

Originally posted by demon
You jumping to the conclusion that I meant the Palestinians in this instance (not "Palestinian-Arabs", you Zionist myth maker), reveals your own prejudices

Myth-maker? Please explain.

Originally posted by demon
"and then you wish America dead"...I refered to "Captian America", a clear reference to American Ideology as practiced abroad, past and present.

Yes, we should be ashamed of ourselves, fighting all those dictators, rebuilding all those nations. After all, democracy and human rights are just too good for brown-skinned people, they can't understand it.

Originally posted by demon
Pipe's articles on Arabs are simply disgraceful. Horowitz and Pipe's attacks on campus critics of Israel are clearly McCarthyist and now their efforts may lead to legislation that will affect Professors' ability to get funding if they criticise Israel or US Policy.
That triangle has enough hate to blow up the world 100 times over.

Funny, one might describe campus attacks on Pipes and Horowitz as McCarthyist.

[Ralph]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by a_unique_person
[B]

You are just a lying, stupid, paranoid, idiotic, f**ked up f**kwit who lives in a cesspool of s**t.



Maybe someday Skeptic you'll be seeing a-u-p on television.

You'll see the newscaster interviewing the litlle grey-haired old lady saying "but he seemed like such a NICE man."


In the background.......you'll see the cops hauling gallon pickle jars full of body parts out of a seedly looking apartment................

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Many of these IDF members feel, however, that actions taken out by the IDF have no relationship to security. Quite the opposite, they serve only to antagonise and humiliate. Hardly the means of securing a peaceful resolution to this ongoing war. They also appear to think that they are causing abuse to children. Hardly the stuff of self defense.

Exactly as I said. It's natural if some soldiers (out of hundreds of thousands) from a democratic society where the opinions of the individual are valued even when they disagree with the government express disillusionment with the purpose of war. Any war.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The UN is where you go, from the pre-amble to the charter


Read it, not one word about colonialism. Don't you feel a little silly offering up sources that don't support your argument as if they did? I'd be embarassed.

I know you have a hard time telling apart ideas that are similar but not the same, but you're not even doing that here. You're injecting ideas where they are not.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Bulls**t. Then the extremists in Israel will just continue with their invasion. Idiot.

What's irrational is not only do you see extremists on only one side of the conflict, but that you presume to be able to predict the future influence of a minority on the politics of a democratic nation. You should give this some thought, there could be a million dollars in it for you. If your prejudices prove to be something more than just prejudices.

Originally posted by a_unique_person As a woman said in an Israeli coffee shop after one bombing, we are very stubborn, but so are they. The idea that this whole issue is driven by the Palestinians is so simple minded as to stagger belief.

What's simple minded is believing Israel can somehow magically create peace without the participation of the Palestinian-Arabs.

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Propoganda 101, that is almost as true as the moon is made of green cheese. But for the jury please provide the evidence how the Mossad "created" Hamas. I can't wait for your so-called evidence. Meanwhile on Earth Hamas grew out of the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood movement that arose in Egypt.

Back in the day Mossad provided funding to Hamas, helping it get started. The idea was to divide the Palestinian-Arabs, weakining the PLO so it would be easier to defeat. All it accomplished was making two major headaches where before there was only one, a huge blunder.

Rather than recognizing this as merely a really stupid policy, conspiracy theorists often point to this as proof that Israel is secretly masterminding attacks against itself, but then these are the same types who believe Bush and Mossad were behind 9/11.

[Skeptic]

I think that's the most concentrated hatred I've seen outside of Stormfront.org.

What makes you think he's OUTSIDE Stormfront.org?

[Skeptic]

What's irrational is not only do you see extremists on only one side of the conflict, but that you presume to be able to predict the future influence of a minority on the politics of a democratic nation.

It's copying. Websites like www.electronicintifada.org -- where AUP get's his propagan... I'm sorry, his "objective truth" about "Palestine/israel" that had not been "distorted by the zionist-controlled mass media"-- talk like that all the time.

Four reservists staging a protest, which in israel is about as much news as "sun to rise tomorrow, details at 11", is seen as incredibly significant and, of course, proof that "the truth" is as they say it is.

(Shrug) you don't actually thinks for himself on these issues, do you?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Propoganda 101, that is almost as true as the moon is made of green cheese. But for the jury please provide the evidence how the Mossad "created" Hamas. I can't wait for your so-called evidence. Meanwhile on Earth Hamas grew out of the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood movement that arose in Egypt.

What was the West Bank called before it was renamed in 1949 a_u_p?

Does it start with an "A". I don't know what this little game has got to do witht he topic. Perhaps you think it is a matter of adding up the points per round, then declaring a winner, like in a boxing match.

Let me know what this diversion has to do with taking people's homes from them, or their car keys, or turning children into prisoners for their whole lives.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
What's irrational is not only do you see extremists on only one side of the conflict, but that you presume to be able to predict the future influence of a minority on the politics of a democratic nation.

It's copying. Websites like www.electronicintifada.org -- where AUP get's his propagan... I'm sorry, his "objective truth" about "Palestine/israel" that had not been "distorted by the zionist-controlled mass media"-- talk like that all the time.

Four reservists staging a protest, which in israel is about as much news as "sun to rise tomorrow, details at 11", is seen as incredibly significant and, of course, proof that "the truth" is as they say it is.

(Shrug) you don't actually thinks for himself on these issues, do you?

Skeptic I have already warned you on this, you ********** up little turd. You have no idea where I get my information, do you. Once again, you are spewing blatant lies, WITH ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS ON FACT OR REALITY.

a) I always try to cross reference my information, if at all possible.

b) If it is a partisan sight, I like to check that it appears to be unimpeachable, or very plausible. That is, there is evidence that appears to back up the claim to a reasonable and responsible degree.

c) You know perfectly well that the vast majority of my links come from mainstream sources. Like this one. That is what really pisses you off, that I don't just use sources like EI, but use mainstream onse. That is why you are reduced to making totally baseless allegations, and then repeating them despite being warned not to, in pretty explicit terms.

Here is some homework for you. Please go through all my posts, and present a tally of sources I have provided for my information.

You will find the vast majority come from mainstream, western media.

As I F Stone once said, all the information is there in the mainstream media, you just have to look around.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Propoganda 101, that is almost as true as the moon is made of green cheese. But for the jury please provide the evidence how the Mossad "created" Hamas. I can't wait for your so-called evidence. Meanwhile on Earth Hamas grew out of the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood movement that arose in Egypt.


See below, Exhibit A, Mycroft.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Exactly as I said. It's natural if some soldiers (out of hundreds of thousands) from a democratic society where the opinions of the individual are valued even when they disagree with the government express disillusionment with the purpose of war. Any war.



They have not made a statement on the purpose of the war. They are making a statement on the prosecution of the war. It involves humiliation, degradation and imprisonment. In carrying out these acts, it degrades them too.

Just as Abu Graib totally undermined the war in Iraq for the US, these acts only serve to inflame the passions of the Palestinians, not break them.

The bombing in WWII, for example, may have broken the physical infrastructure of Germany, but during that time, the output of fighter planes actually rose. The German people fought back ever harder and harder.



Read it, not one word about colonialism. Don't you feel a little silly offering up sources that don't support your argument as if they did? I'd be embarassed.

I know you have a hard time telling apart ideas that are similar but not the same, but you're not even doing that here. You're injecting ideas where they are not.




You aren't that stupid. I'll take it as agreed that invasions and occupation are out, according to the charter.

You had the same problem with torture at Abu Graib. Everyone else knows what it is, but you hold up a fig leaf of semantics.

You may have convinced yourself, but no one else with a rational mind believed a word of it.




What's irrational is not only do you see extremists on only one side of the conflict, but that you presume to be able to predict the future influence of a minority on the politics of a democratic nation. You should give this some thought, there could be a million dollars in it for you. If your prejudices prove to be something more than just prejudices.



Wrong again. There are extremists and killers on both sides. Wedge politics is a higher art form in the debasement of Democratic Politics. It is played by many countries these days.

That a small minority has so much influence is apparent in the history of Israel. While a majority of Israelies had no inclination for the settlers or the settlement program, the Israel governemnt and it's bodies have actively funded the program to the tune of billions of dollars. Even after Oslo, the process never stopped.



What's simple minded is believing Israel can somehow magically create peace without the participation of the Palestinian-Arabs.



I am not talking about creating peace, I am talking about doing the right and moral thing, up front. Israel does not have to have the settlements, the majority of Isrealies do not want the settlements.

And I have already stated that there will be killing and bloodshed going on for years. For this I have been attacked as supporting these acts. The expert, as I have said before, is the guy who says it take the longest and cost the most.



Back in the day Mossad provided funding to Hamas, helping it get started. The idea was to divide the Palestinian-Arabs, weakining the PLO so it would be easier to defeat. All it accomplished was making two major headaches where before there was only one, a huge blunder.

Rather than recognizing this as merely a really stupid policy, conspiracy theorists often point to this as proof that Israel is secretly masterminding attacks against itself, but then these are the same types who believe Bush and Mossad were behind 9/11.

I have never claimed this. I do believe it is a really stupid act, could you please let ZN know that too. He apparently does not accept it.

What it does show is that Mossad has not been interested in dealing with a stable peace partner, but in destabilising and fragmenting the Palestinians. If it had actively supported a more moderate faction, I could believe that Mossad was trying to promote peace and respect for the Paletinians.

By actively supporting a radical, militant faction of Palestinians, you have to wonder what the motivation was. It was not just undermining Arafat, there are other groups that oppose him that are more moderate that could have done that as well. Why the radicals?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
What's irrational is not only do you see extremists on only one side of the conflict, but that you presume to be able to predict the future influence of a minority on the politics of a democratic nation.

It's copying. Websites like www.electronicintifada.org -- where AUP get's his propagan... I'm sorry, his "objective truth" about "Palestine/israel" that had not been "distorted by the zionist-controlled mass media"-- talk like that all the time.

Four reservists staging a protest, which in israel is about as much news as "sun to rise tomorrow, details at 11", is seen as incredibly significant and, of course, proof that "the truth" is as they say it is.

(Shrug) you don't actually thinks for himself on these issues, do you?

However, a since you mention it. Why not try a few stories from there, and see how we go. first up

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2844.shtml



Vanunu, who found sanctuary in the grounds of the Anglican cathedral of St George's when he was released from jail two months ago, is under a severe gagging order imposed by the Israeli government. He is banned from talking to all foreigners and most especially foreign journalists as the former Sunday Times reporter Peter Hounam discovered a few weeks ago when he was arrested by the Shin Bet secret services, held in a cell for 24 hours and then deported. Hounam's crime was to arrange an interview for the BBC with Vanunu, trying to get round the restrictions by using an Israeli citizen to pose the questions.



Free speech, sure.

[Phil]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Skeptic I have already warned you on this, you f**ked up little turd. You have no idea where I get my information, do you. Once again, you are spewing blatant lies, WITH ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS ON FACT OR REALITY.

a) I always try to cross reference my information, if at all possible.

b) If it is a partisan sight, I like to check that it appears to be unimpeachable, or very plausible. That is, there is evidence that appears to back up the claim to a reasonable and responsible degree.

c) You know perfectly well that the vast majority of my links come from mainstream sources. Like this one. That is what really pisses you off, that I don't just use sources like EI, but use mainstream onse. That is why you are reduced to making totally baseless allegations, and then repeating them despite being warned not to, in pretty explicit terms.

Here is some homework for you. Please go through all my posts, and present a tally of sources I have provided for my information.

You will find the vast majority come from mainstream, western media.

As I F Stone once said, all the information is there in the mainstream media, you just have to look around.



This post has been reported for offensive language and an uncivil response.

Asterisks are in place to disguise a word that's not allowed, but portions of the post can be viewed as being in poor taste. It also challenges the "jerk" rule.

However, it has been determined that the rules have yet to be broken, and no action will be taken at this time other than to encourage civility.

[Cleopatra]

Well I have been following this thread from its very start and I have mixed feelings about what I have read.

The opening post made me smile because I find it amusing and interesting to witness the day that individuals realize that Israelis are not any kind of mosters that enjoy war.

The jewish tradition is one of the few traditions and cultures ( maybe the only) one that oppose violence so much. Violence is an anomaly to a jew, something strange and totally unacceptable.

During the thousands of years of their existence that preceded the establishment of Israel the notion of violence was known to the jewish people only by the procecutions they had to suffer.

Israel was established and jews have found themselves in the unpleasant situation to start behaving like arabs and christians in order to preserve their state.

Christians and Arabs started accusing Israelis for behaving like them. I won't get into the discussion on how fair is that I just wish to point out a couple of things.

Fifty years of existence without having one single day of peace are not enough to judge a nation that struggles to find its identity for the first time in its history and in the terms of modernity.

I just hope that Israel won't turn into another western christian state that wishes to impose its culture and laws to other people and I hope that Israelis will resist to the christianification of their country in terms of mentality. We are not evangelical christians or catholics or muslims and we didn't survive for thousands of years to become like them.

Having said all that I want to declare that I despise PLO and if I had the power I would vanish the arabs from our land but as my grandmother used to say when I am angry or in fear I shouldn't let the christian in me talking but I should return to my jewish heritage in order to find compassion for the fellow humans beings.

So do not have any illusions as to what happens in Middle East: If Israelis allow some things is because they haven't adopted the Christian or the muslim mentality yet.We do have the power but we do not wish to use it.

We keep resisting :)

[Cleopatra]

How many times so far I have narrated the story of the neighbour of my grandmother in Salonika? I remember at least three. One more time won't harm you.

Salonika didn't have a jewish neighbourghood. Christians, muslims and jews were living together before those monsters ruin one of the greatest cities in Europe for ever.

Next to our house was livig a christian family that was in very friendly terms with ours. My great grand-mother used to visit them all the time and my grandmother escorted her in order to play with the kids of the family. My grandmother had observed that everytime her mother was leaving the house earlier the christian neighbour washed the cup of coffee and then sterilized it with pure alcohol because "Annat might be a great lady but we shouldn't forget that those jews crucified our Lord".

The same lady was beaten almost to death by the Nazis because she attempted to hide our family and save them from the camp.

Every time people accuse Unique for being an antisemite I remember this story. I am not sure that Unique likes the race (but who cares I don't like other people either) but I am sure that in case of an emergency he would be among the righteous of the nations and this is what should count.

[Skeptic]

Skeptic I have already warned you on this, you f**ked up little turd.

When our resident "humanitarian human rights fighter" gets angry, he shows his true colors.

As the old joke goes, AUP loves humanity, it's people he can't stand.

You have no idea where I get my information, do you.

Yes, I do. As a guide, I use your posts. It was YOU, not I, who posted "news" items from www.electronicintifada.org . Yes, for some reason, that led me to believe you use and trust that source.

Same with other sources. Contrary to what you say, most of your sources are either well-known leftist sources, or, as in the case of "electronic intifada", completely beyound the pale.

Your own words, that the "vast majority" of your items are from mainstream sources--a lie--imply that even you know at least a "small minority" of them are from off-the-wall sites. Not coincidentally, by the way, the "news" you post from such sites (let us ignore the issue of how many of them you use) tends to be the most virulently anti-israeli and antisemitic of your "news items".

Your claim that the "vast majority" is mainstream is a bit like a dieter's claim that he "usually" sticks to his diet. You KNOW posting stuff from www.electronicintifada.org is bad for your reputation as an "objective observer of the israei-Arab conflict, but it was just such a DELICIOUSLY antisemitic article, you couldn't resist.

Here's a tip, AUP: forget about your reputation as an "objective" and "humane" observer of the conflict. You have no such reputation, except perhaps in your own mind. You might as well post from www.electronicintifada.org and (for fun) www.stormfront.org every day and at least enjoy yourself.

[a_unique_person]

As I expected, all opinion, absolutely NO EVIDENCE.

[Cleopatra]

Unique I wouldn't exactly call you an objective observer of the conflict basically because of your sublte comments about the resemblances between the IDF and the Nazis that personally I have found very hurtful.

However, I believe that anybody is entitled to choose sides in this conflict and none is obliged to take Israel's side on that.

[a_unique_person]

Damming with faint praise, I see. The charge has been anti-semitism.

I have already said long ago that we are all tribal, we can grow up to be racist and not even be aware of it. If I am racist, to any degree, it is something that is equaly divided between all races, Arab to Jew to Black. To be charged with being particularly anti-semitic, without a shred of evidence, is highly offensive.

I have never felt the need to fumigate my house, my clothing or anything else, after talking to black people, jews or italians.

I have not only recently realised that not all Jews or Israelis support the occupation or persecution of Palestinians. Previous threads have also made this point. I have met plenty of Jews, and, as I am sure I have said before, they are pretty much like other people, human with all the strengths and weaknesses.

When I lived in StKilda, which has a large Jewish population, the only difference to living in other parts of Melbourne was that there were some Jewish restaurants. I would have come across Jews every day, without even realising it. Without even wanting to be aware of it. Without even caring to realise it.

Over time, I came to be aware that some of the people I met socially were Jewish. Just like learning they were Greek or Italian. I just tried to take people as they came. If they were sociable, I got on with them, if not, I didn't.

Skeptic, however, is convinced, without being able to provide any evidence, that I act nice to Jews to their face, then trash them behind their backs. I scour hate sites for reasons to hate Jews. Where is the evidence. I 'let my mask slip'.

It is Skeptic who is showing what he is, and the evidence is pretty clear. He is paranoid, and probably in need of some care and concern. That doesn't mean, however, that I have to sit back and accept his accusations silently. His inability to debate in any real sense appears to indicate that he has no answer to many points raised in the Israel/Palestine debate. His only response is to attack the debater.

[a_unique_person]

Anyway I have taken Fools advice and put Skeptic on ignore. There is nothing to be gained by being needled by him, or debating him.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Damming with faint praise, I see. The charge has been anti-semitism.
I hope that you do not address that comment to me Unique.

In this forum, I have read the most hurtful things about Israelis from two people I appreciate and respect most: you and Capel Dodger and yet those feelings haven't changed.

Have I wondered whether both of you are antisemities? You bet I have and I have discussed this issue with other members to check if I see things clearly. I have concluded that this is not the case.

There is a very fine line that once you cross it you become a racist and I know it because I have crossed it many times but also there is a huge difference between desliking something and hate it on racial basis.

I do not believe that you are an antisemite Unique and I don't like it when people call you like that because it's a terrible accusation.

[CapelDodger]

from a_unique_person:
One of the new features of the modern world, post WWII, was supposed to be the end of empires and colonialism.
Quite. The zionist idea of creating a nation in a place where other people were living, by the simple expedient of removing them, was perfectly acceptable to mainstream European minds in the mid-Imperial period, late 19thCE. It was so crazy, and so few Jews wanted to get involved, that it took until after WW2 for the conquest to get going. By then European mainstream thinking was very different, but not zionist thinking. It's the conflict between the creation of Israel (a colonial enterprise) and the need for it to embrace aspects of that new thinking, that leads to this sort of display. True, it couldn't happen in Syria (new spirit of democratisation notwithstanding), but then the soldiers did have to dismantle the exhibition because it was "evidence" ... Convincing? I think not.

Israel simply cannot survive such fundamental contradictions in the long term. It can cause a lot of damage in the medium-term, physical and psychological, to Israeli and Palestinian alike.

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:

I recall you agreeing with my opinion that an Arab-Israeli peace would be the cue for an Israeli civil war. I think you see a lot of the contradictions that I do. Where we differ, perhaps, is in our reactions: mine is "What were you thinking?", yours is more "What else could they think?". None of it anti-semitic. Now Herzl - there was an anti-semite for you.;)

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:
Unique I wouldn't exactly call you an objective observer of the conflict basically because of your sublte comments about the resemblances between the IDF and the Nazis that personally I have found very hurtful.
This is a minefield, but one should remember that Jabotinsky was compared to Mussolini and Hitler before 1933. This upset him. Not because of the comparison, but because he claimed they copied his thinking and style. Jabotinsky was the mentor of Begin, and had a profound influence on the Haganah/IDF (via his Youth League, which foreshadowed the Hitler Youth). The nationalist ideas that led to fascism were the same roots that sprouted nationalist zionism, which I shall in future call Herzlism! A nagging problem solved. Anyhoo, it seems a little irrational that everybody but Israelis can be analytically compared to Nazis (as opposed to pejoratively). Worse things get said in court.

[Cleopatra]

Hi Capel Dodger.

Originally posted by CapelDodger
I recall you agreeing with my opinion that an Arab-Israeli peace would be the cue for an Israeli civil war. I think you see a lot of the contradictions that I do.
I do. Also sometimes I try to see things with your eyes while you never try to see things with mine. As I have said to Unique you seem to have made your decision and it seems that your decision is definite.
Where we differ, perhaps, is in our reactions: mine is "What were you thinking?", yours is more "What else could they think?". None of it anti-semitic.
Quite right! This is not a simple difference though. As you know everything starts by the first question we pose.
Now Herzl - there was an anti-semite for you.;)

Yeah Yeah.

Nice signature but when you talk to me about Herzl keep the following in mind:"You don't give a man like Jack a glass, give him the bloody bottle" ;)

[CapelDodger]

from a_unique_person:
Anyway I have taken Fools advice and put Skeptic on ignore. There is nothing to be gained by being needled by him, or debating him.
He's a parodic background noise. The ironic thing is that while he accuses others of saying things they haven't, we can always whine about being called baby-eaters/kike-baiters/Big Brother-watchers, without specific references ("Skeptic did it"). Bet your life it's in there somewhere.

[Cleopatra]

Capel Dodger why all discussions have to end up in flames? I will tell you why, because of your arbitrary interpretation of history, that's why.


Originally posted by CapelDodger
This is a minefield, but one should remember that Jabotinsky was compared to Mussolini and Hitler before 1933.

That's a classic from you. Jabotinsky was compared... by whom? God knows.
Jabotinsky was the mentor of Begin, and had a profound influence on the Haganah/IDF (via his Youth League, which foreshadowed the Hitler Youth). You present a well known fact ( Jabotinsky's bio) as breaking news Capel Dodger. We do know who Jabotinsky was now the last comment is one of your usual arbitrary comments that if you will be asked to support you won't.

The nationalist ideas that led to fascism were the same roots that sprouted nationalist zionism, which I shall in future call Herzlism!

Now you are trolling.

Anyhoo, it seems a little irrational that everybody but Israelis can be analytically compared to Nazis (as opposed to pejoratively). Worse things get said in court.

Funny you say that because I have never heard or read any Israeli comparing others to Nazis.

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:
Quite right! This is not a simple difference though. As you know everything starts by the first question we pose.
A fundamental difference. It speaks volumes about ways of thinking. I am capable of being cold-blooded when analyzing any subject. That is because my ambition is to be right about things. My emotional reactions, personal experience and moral sense are a separate subject. That doesn't mean I don't try to empathise; in fact, empathy is crucial to understanding. Which is useful when it comes to being right. And I like to understand anyway.

[demon]

Cleopatra:
"Well I have been following this thread from its very start and I have mixed feelings about what I have read.

The opening post made me smile because I find it amusing and interesting to witness the day that individuals realize that Israelis are not any kind of mosters that enjoy war.

The jewish tradition is one of the few traditions and cultures ( maybe the only) one that oppose violence so much. Violence is an anomaly to a jew, something strange and totally unacceptable.

During the thousands of years of their existence that preceded the establishment of Israel the notion of violence was known to the jewish people only by the procecutions they had to suffer.

Israel was established and jews have found themselves in the unpleasant situation to start behaving like arabs and christians in order to preserve their state.

Christians and Arabs started accusing Israelis for behaving like them. I won't get into the discussion on how fair is that I just wish to point out a couple of things.

Fifty years of existence without having one single day of peace are not enough to judge a nation that struggles to find its identity for the first time in its history and in the terms of modernity.

I just hope that Israel won't turn into another western christian state that wishes to impose its culture and laws to other people and I hope that Israelis will resist to the christianification of their country in terms of mentality. We are not evangelical christians or catholics or muslims and we didn't survive for thousands of years to become like them.

Having said all that I want to declare that I despise PLO and if I had the power I would vanish the arabs from our land but as my grandmother used to say when I am angry or in fear I shouldn't let the christian in me talking but I should return to my jewish heritage in order to find compassion for the fellow humans beings.

So do not have any illusions as to what happens in Middle East: If Israelis allow some things is because they haven't adopted the Christian or the muslim mentality yet.We do have the power but we do not wish to use it.

We keep resisting"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So many people would like to be able to control other people but if they are honest people will admit it is a losing battle of a lifetime to control even themselves.
If restraint, poorly exercised, is the best outcome someone can imagine, he/she has already effectively surrendered control over their own life.
The outcome many want (racist fantasies aside), is a two-state solution? In which case the only relevant question is how this can best be achieved. Talking about right and wrong is irrelevant when warmongering extremists set the agenda on both sides.
Right-thinking Israelis and Palestinians should be able to agree a viable solution without too much trouble. They should demand it of their leaders if democracy is to amount to anything. Any other tactic amounts to sanctioning death and potentially one's own without a fight.

We have talked before about forgetting the past in our discussions on "justice" for the Palestinians but again some pasts are best forgotton, while others can be paraded for gain and exemption from criticism.

History is misery we might say, why hold it to our backs...it only interests bad-news pricks and arm-chair hacks... I don't give a quack as I sip my martini by my swimming pool, dreaming of a future that justifies me....and so on.

Dreamers of the future effectively poison the present and likely murder the future utterly (given the "perfection" of modern war machines). C.S. Lewis touches upon this brilliantly in "The Screwtape Letters" - it is presented as one of the main tricks the Devil plays on humankind - keep them interested in the future, and of course there are all sorts of subtle sub-themes associated with it but you should read it if you haven't already.
Also, the Sufis, and Bhuddism and all that - they say the same thing... it's all about NOW, baby. The future is only bright if the present is properly attended to, without vanity and without expectations for the future. Life only happens in the present. Truth only exists in the present. The idea of procrastinating truth and life is utterly absurd.

It's not people`s cautious optimism that I'm challenging. It's their turning away from their government's longstanding assault on human rights. It`s happening now with Iraq and it happened with the death of Reagan.
It's the refusal to engage with real history and the interests of those who have brutalised and occupied countries and who now feign humanitarian concern.
We cannot lose sight of the past, and no one nation or race is any more entitled to it`s historical legacy than any other.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CapelDodger


A fundamental difference. It speaks volumes about ways of thinking. I am capable of being cold-blooded when analyzing any subject. That is because my ambition is to be right about things. My emotional reactions, personal experience and moral sense are a separate subject. That doesn't mean I don't try to empathise; in fact, empathy is crucial to understanding. Which is useful when it comes to being right. And I like to understand anyway. This is not the stock market Capel Dodger. For every right or logical argument you will bring while discussing the ME crisis, there will always be a counter argument that refutes yours and the vice-verca.

This should tell you something important ; that there is no such a thing as right in this discussion. From this point of view we are talking about pure politics but we can also talk about pure biases and prejudices.This very thread demonstrates it in the best possible way.

Empathy is more useful while searching for a solution to this problem because it'a problem of needs. The one group needs security and the other one needs recognition.

Who is right? Can you attribute right and justice when it comes to needs?

( note to self to post those questions to the rhetorical questions thread)

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:
You present a well known fact ( Jabotinsky's bio) as breaking news Capel Dodger.
It could be news to Skeptic. I'm playing to the gallery, Cleopatra, aren't you? Our mission is to inform.
The nationalist ideas that led to fascism were the same roots that sprouted nationalist zionism, which I shall in future call Herzlism!
I am not trolling. This is entirely defensible. I will defend it if you wish; it's not necessarily off-thread since it speaks to the contradictions that the "This is what we have to do" display brings up.
Funny you say that because I have never heard or read any Israeli comparing others to Nazis.
Skeptic did it.

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:
For every right or logical argument you will bring while discussing the ME crisis, there will always be a counter argument that refutes yours and the vice-verca.
Oh no there won't. When I'm right, there is no refutation. Right is right. Not wrong. There may be counter-arguments, but the chances are I've got them covered.
From this point of view we are talking about pure politics but we can also talk about pure biases and prejudices.This very threads demonstrates it in the best possible way.
Not demonstrated by our posts. I am talking about pure politics. people in large numbers reacting with each other.
Empathy is more useful while searching for a solution to this problem because it'a problem of needs. The one group needs security and the other one needs recognition.
A one-state solution is the only feasible option. That means giving up the idea of a Jewish State. It was never going to be - except as a stockaded compound, an extension of Europe trying to have nothing to do with the neighbours. It doesn't mean the annihilation of the Jews, it means an amagamation of the capabilities of all the Palestinian people.
Who is right? Can you attribute right and justice when it comes to needs?
Jews don't need a Jewish State. In fact, the Jewish State for The Jewish People has done nothing but damage to actual Jewish people. Something demonstrated by the display that sparked this thread. (Handbrake-turn, and back on-thread.)

[CapelDodger]

from Mycroft:
Recently you described 400 years of Ottoman rule over Palestine as "occupation" apparently for no other reason than to discredit Zionist negotiations with them.
The nature of the Ottoman Empire and its rule is given away by the E-word. The Israeli trick isn't so much dealing with them - Herzlists were far more pragmatic, dealing with Germans, Russians, Brits and Yanks, having recognised that those Orientals were on the down-slope - but the continued use of Ottoman land-laws as a basis for expropriation. It's rather cute, really, the local democracy using Ottoman imperialist laws to justify itself.

(The Ottomans regarded Herzlism as a Russian ploy, an idea fiercely promoted by the Jews of the Holy Land.)

Of course, the Ottomans, being Imperialist rather than nationalist, didn't dispossess the local inhabitants to make room for Turks, they taxed and conscripted them in the time-honoured manner.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I hope that you do not address that comment to me Unique.

In this forum, I have read the most hurtful things about Israelis from two people I appreciate and respect most: you and Capel Dodger and yet those feelings haven't changed.

Have I wondered whether both of you are antisemities? You bet I have and I have discussed this issue with other members to check if I see things clearly. I have concluded that this is not the case.

There is a very fine line that once you cross it you become a racist and I know it because I have crossed it many times but also there is a huge difference between desliking something and hate it on racial basis.

I do not believe that you are an antisemite Unique and I don't like it when people call you like that because it's a terrible accusation.

It is hurtful to be compared to someone who disinfects their cutlery after a Jew drinks from it. And I am sorry to dissapoint you, but if I was about to be beaten up by a gang of armed Nazis, I can't say I would defend Jews from being killed. I don't like pain. Perhaps at the moment my morals would prevail, but I cannot say they would triumph over fear. I did save a stranger from a beating in a public park once from two thugs, but only on the basis that I thought that if they saw me coming, which I ensured they did, they would run the other way. Fortunately, they did. If they had come for me, I would have turned and run as fast as I could.

Perhaps I am racist, I don't know. The only reason for my concentration on Israel here is to demonstrate to Mycroft and friends that the issue is not all about evil Palestinians.

I was at a meeting about a new job some months ago. My prospective employer, after a few drinks, raised the opinion that the whole Iraq invasion was just to help Israel out. Now, I have wondered about that theory too, but not seen any evidence. The oil/revenge/strategic reasons seem to be more obvious than other reasons. I instantly froze, and he got the impression pretty quickly that I was not going to respond to what was possibly going to be a real "Jewish Conspiracy" type of conversation. The next day, when we talked over the phone, he aplogised for raising the topic.

I don't mind raising such possibilities here, if I think that there is any evidence, because I know that any weak arguments or theories will get trashed pretty quickly, (even if I do have to put up with a lot of flak for raising them). But in terms of having a friendly conversation with a stranger over a drink, I don't want to have any part of it. In the same vein, I let some friends know I don't like having conversations about Iranian 'towelheads'. I explained to them, politely but, I am afraid, coldly, that Iranians are not Arabs. Doesn't really make me many friends, I am afraid.

[a_unique_person]

In regards to Capels constant references to historical figures in the current mess.

This quote from John Maynard Keynes, in 1935.

".. the ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed, the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually slaves of some defunct economist.
....

Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back.

...the power of vested interests is vastly exaggerated compared with the gradual encroachment of ideas."

[Cleopatra]

Demon

I read your post carefully and the only thing I can do is to nominate it for the language award since I don't have anything else to add in terms of agreeing or disagreeing.

Somebody told me once that the reason I like history so much and study it is because I have a disturbed relationship with the past. Capel Dodger has told me once almost the same but with different words.

I don't ask the arabs to forget about the past and their wounds, this is impossible when blood is involved.I just think that it's time for people to make choices. People can keep on killing each other in order to "honor" their history but I feel that they lose perspective of what is important in life.

As for people turning their backs when goverment sviolate humans right you must believe me that even in the perfect democracies human rights are violated on a daily basis.The protection of human rights is a constant fight because it is in the nature of those who have the power to abuse the rest. Aescylus described it perfectly in "Prometheus Bound" 2000 years ago.

As for the one state solution I will return to this later.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Every time people accuse Unique for being an antisemite I remember this story. I am not sure that Unique likes the race (but who cares I don't like other people either) but I am sure that in case of an emergency he would be among the righteous of the nations and this is what should count.

That’s the first I’ve heard the story, it’s a very thought-provoking one, thank you for sharing it. It’s easy to forget that despite our convenient labels, people are complex and are very rarely all good or all bad. In a sense, this womans self-sacrifice was even more noble for her having done it despite her prejudices.

You’re being very generous in making this comparison with AUP. You’ve known him longer than I have, so perhaps you know something that justifies this generosity that I can’t see, or perhaps you’re just being generous for it’s own sake.

Generosity is a virtue. Just like modesty.

[a_unique_person]

Let's make it harder, Cleopatra. What do you think of Italians?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Let's make it harder, Cleopatra. What do you think of Italians?

Damn you Unique!!! I spitted the coffee on the screen.

LOL LOL

Italians... VERY yummy!!!

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
In this forum, I have read the most hurtful things about Israelis from two people I appreciate and respect most: you and Capel Dodger and yet those feelings haven't changed. Who does Cleopatra respect and appreciate the most? a_u_p and Capel Dodger. The two most-proven and loudest zionist conspiracy theorists at JREF besides Demon and the Fool. Pure comedy...

:big:

[a_unique_person]

You want more proof of Hamas being given a helping hand by Mossad?

[Cleopatra]

To Zenith-Nadir:


I happen to appreciate people I meet on line for their intelligence,their education, their courage to post their opinions even when they are unpopular and their sense of humor.

For the moment Z-N you meet only one of those four criteria but as I have posted before I see great potential in you to become a very good advocate of peace.

You need training but I am proverbially patient, cheri.

[Cleopatra]

Unique, please. :)

[zenith-nadir]

Gee, thanks for the pat-on-the-head Cleopatra, do I get a candy too? By the way, there is a big difference between "their courage to post their opinions even when they are unpopular" and posting conspiracy theories and propoganda-laced garbage. It must be sooooo intellectually liberating that you don't feel the need to distinguish between the two.

[a_unique_person]

That's why you only scored a one.

[demon]

Cleopatra:

"As for people turning their backs when goverment sviolate humans right you must believe me that even in the perfect democracies human rights are violated on a daily basis.The protection of human rights is a constant fight because it is in the nature of those who have the power to abuse the rest. Aescylus described it perfectly in "Prometheus Bound" 2000 years ago.

As for the one state solution I will return to this later.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the positive reply as always. I think we touch base on some important points.

When time permits, I`d like to explore the idea of "human rights" and this modern idea of "just interventions".
For myself, this doctrine has been hijacked by, and made useful to, Imperial Missions precisely because it is elitist, incoherent, denuded of political, economic or social analysis.
That`s for another day though, and another thread.

demon

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:
In this forum, I have read the most hurtful things about Israelis from two people I appreciate and respect most: you and Capel Dodger and yet those feelings haven't changed.
I don't think I've said anything hurtful about Israelis in general, just individuals like Sharon. One of my objections to great projects such as Hertzlism is the way that their followers conscript future generations, such as Israelis born into this situation. I've known Israelis who were pains in the ass, and Israelis who are fine people. Some can bear me, others want me shot. This is what makes life a joy.
Israel was established and jews have found themselves in the unpleasant situation to start behaving like arabs and christians in order to preserve their state.
Another of my objections to Herzlism. As I frequently point out to people, Herzlism isn't Jewish but has conscripted Jewishness. The state itself is the more important to Herzlism, just as The Jewish People is more important than actual Jewish people. If the state corrupts Jewishness, ditch the state.

I see the history of Judaism in two distinct strands: Moses/Sinai, Prophets and Rabbinic Judaism is one strand; Joshua, David, Maccabees and Hertzlists is the other. One I like, the other not so much. The one is transcendent, the other about power and real estate. The second strand is dominant at the moment, but I doubt if it will be the end of the other.

[CapelDodger]

from demon:
For myself, this doctrine has been hijacked by, and made useful to, Imperial Missions precisely because it is elitist, incoherent, denuded of political, economic or social analysis.
That`s for another day though, and another thread.
I'm all for looking into the White Man's Burden.

[CapelDodger]

The two most-proven and loudest zionist conspiracy theorists at JREF ...
I am just so cock-up, not conspiracy that this leaves me speechless..

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by demon
[When time permits, I`d like to explore the idea of "human rights" and this modern idea of "just interventions".
For myself, this doctrine has been hijacked by, and made useful to, Imperial Missions precisely because it is elitist, incoherent, denuded of political, economic or social analysis.
That`s for another day though, and another thread This is an interesting topic that I have pondered on it a lot since I am a human rights activist. It's a topic that my dad and I enjoy to argue. I mention him because he has been a victim of violation of human rights when he was in my age( 30 years ago) and his opinion about human rights is identical to yours. You have very sophisticated ideas for an art conservator though. :)

Capel Dodger.

May I ask you in public to stop using the word Hertzelism instead of Zionism? You might believe that Zionism is to blame for the decline of the western civilzation, the famine in Africa, the war in Iraq and the exclusion of Britain in Euro 2004 and you might have strong indications that Zionists were cat lovers but I do not think that it's right to use coined terms of the jewish history in a derogatory way.You can do better than that.It's poor taste.

I see the history of Judaism in two distinct strands: Moses/Sinai, Prophets and Rabbinic Judaism is one strand; Joshua, David, Maccabees and Hertzlists is the other. One I like, the other not so much. The one is transcendent, the other about power and real estate. The second strand is dominant at the moment, but I doubt if it will be the end of the other.

Yes, the Judaism that resembles to a Disney film is always more appealing to the outsiders. It's when jewish people raise their voice that things become unpleasant.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Yes, the Judaism that resembles to a Disney film is always more appealing to the outsiders. It's when jewish people raise their voice that things become unpleasant.

Doesn't this apply to all groups? I like the Americans in the clever sitcoms, I hate the Americans in Iraq. I like the Pommies with the cheeky grin and the wry sense of humour, I hate the pommie whinger, I like the industrious, serious german, I hate the Nazi. All groups have their good and bad points. The Jews are no different. In terms of Religion, some of the Jews I have met have reminded me of Catholics, neurotic, obsessive nutters, whose minds have been destabilised by a religion that can totally dominate a mind.

It is not a Jewish trait, it is the result of dominating a mind with religion. The problem with the domination of mind with religion is that you can get dangerous, irrational actions. Look at the fundy xians in the US, they want Israel to be restored so they can get to fly up to heaven like superman. If it takes a world war, who cares, the bible predicted it. They want a world war. Any group that wants to act like a bunch of maniacs is going to be admonished by me.

The fundy Islamists, for example, do scare me. Not because they are Islamic, or Arabs, but because they are extremists. And in Israel, the extremists hold an unrepresentative amount of power. Ditto the US. In the world of Islam, they are not yet that powerful, although they appear to be more powerful than they really are due to their lack of concern with how their methods are judged, but they are on the rise. What would be really scary in this case would be if the Wests childish 'war' on terrorism is really the spur for a widespread rise in the support for fundy Islamic terror.

[Cleopatra]

Unique this is not what Capel Dodger means. He makes the distinction between the mythical, religious past and the actual jewish history. He rejects the later, he takes the former.It's like comparing the story of Exodus with the Holocaust. This is what CD does.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
Wow is that ever the pot calling the kettle black. How about stop indoctrinating children to martyr themselves on Israeli soil. How about stop teaching children Israel doesn't really exsist. How about stop teaching children suicide bombers are heros. How about stop teaching children this orthis or this.

I am completely amazed by this, your latest, bizarre post. I repeat. The killing of innocent children needs to stop. That would be a good starting point for peace. If the point of your post is to disgree with that simple sentiment then go tell it to the marines. It seems you have real difficulty with a simple non-partisan hope.

Where did I talk about a particular group in the post of mine you quoted. Hasn't the penny droped for you yet? It seems not.

Suicide bombers kill innocent people in circumstances which guarantee innocent children are murdered. Ariel Sharon sends pilots to assassinate mere suspects in circumstances that guarantee innocent children are killed.
Stopping the murder of innocent children would a good place to start, not end, the peace process.

Educating everyone to respect everyone else would also be an important part of the process.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
I agree, but there doesn't seem to be any significant support for that among the Palestinian-Arabs. If such displays were allowed from the Palestinian-Arab side, the display itself wouldn't stop the violence, but it would be a good first step towards mutual understanding.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much support for it either by Aerial Sharon.

I am happy to support a call for the Palestinians to stop bulldozing the houses of innocent people. That would also be a good start, would it not?

[demon]

Cleo:
"You have very sophisticated ideas for an art conservator though:) "

Hey, there is more to me than distilled water and sable brushes you know! ;)

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:
May I ask you in public to stop using the word Hertzelism instead of Zionism? You might believe that Zionism is to blame for the decline of the western civilzation, the famine in Africa, the war in Iraq and the exclusion of Britain in Euro 2004 and you might have strong indications that Zionists were cat lovers but I do not think that it's right to use coined terms of the jewish history in a derogatory way.You can do better than that.It's poor taste.
I'm not wedded to the term, so OK, no more H word. (As to the rest of the diatribe, I think we should just draw a veil over it.) But I will continue to mention Herzl and his scheme in a derogatory way because the more I get to know about him the more I dislike him. (I doubt if I could dislike nationalist zionism - nationalism generally - any more than I already do.) I just came across this from him, quoted in Bein's biography:The nation is beautiful. Not just this or that nation, but any nation. Because the nation consists of what is best in any individual - loyalty, enthusiasm, the joy of sacrifice and the readiness to die for an idea.
Incredibly self-serving for the narcissist who wanted to be the Father of the Jewish State. Loyalty (to him and his scheme), enthusiasm (for him and his scheme) ... In his scheme the "best" people are like bees in a hive.Yes, the Judaism that resembles to a Disney film is always more appealing to the outsiders. It's when jewish people raise their voice that things become unpleasant.Do you think I should pitch it to Disney? I doubt if they'd be keen on depicting Joshua as a traditional desert bandit, rather than a hero who heard the word of the Creator. There'd be a fuss, and Disney aren't into that. As to being an outsider, I think it's better to approach a religion as a non-believer if you want to understand it (which I do). It's also better to approach history knowing there isn't actually a Creator pulling the strings, and without commitment to a mythology.

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:
Unique this is not what Capel Dodger means. He makes the distinction between the mythical, religious past and the actual jewish history. He rejects the later, he takes the former.It's like comparing the story of Exodus with the Holocaust. This is what CD does.Er ... no. I'm not referring to myths, I'm referring to the meaning of the religion. The Mosaic original is an attempt to create a moral and desirable society, the Davidic strand is an attempt to harness the religion to personal and dynastic ends. The myths are there in both strands because that's what the vulgar masses want. (Is "vulgar" in better taste than "lumpen"?)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong


I am completely amazed by this, your latest, bizarre post. I repeat. The killing of innocent children needs to stop. That would be a good starting point for peace. If the point of your post is to disgree with that simple sentiment then go tell it to the marines. It seems you have real difficulty with a simple non-partisan hope.

Where did I talk about a particular group in the post of mine you quoted. Hasn't the penny droped for you yet? It seems not.

Suicide bombers kill innocent people in circumstances which guarantee innocent children are murdered. Ariel Sharon sends pilots to assassinate mere suspects in circumstances that guarantee innocent children are killed.
Stopping the murder of innocent children would a good place to start, not end, the peace process.

Educating everyone to respect everyone else would also be an important part of the process.

Here is a list that may interest you. The number of Palestinian children killed was far larger than the list of dead Israeli children. The existence of the list, itself is, however, a tragedy on a grand scale.

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870382284&highlight=dead+children#post1870382284

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Hi Cleopatra:
Er ... no. I'm not referring to myths, I'm referring to the meaning of the religion. The Mosaic original is an attempt to create a moral and desirable society, the Davidic strand is an attempt to harness the religion to personal and dynastic ends. The myths are there in both strands because that's what the vulgar masses want. (Is "vulgar" in better taste than "lumpen"?)

I think it is more that they want a mass of paper to make their myths look better, purely in the physical sense, so they include all the books and pieces of paper they can find, even if a lot it duplicates previous work, or appears to have little to do with religion at all.

I don't doubt the religious benefits for jews of a culture that is generous, forgiving, altruistic, etc. That is where a lot of the xian tradition was taken from. What the extremist idiots don't seem to realise is that the wars of conquest in the old testament also clearly document the fall of those kingdoms not long after, and long periods of war and conflict that caused suffering for on both sides. They only want to see the conquests, not the downside, which even now is staring them right in the face. As this exhibition shows, there are people out there who don't think that the acheivement will be worth the price, because the empires matter little compared to the price that individuals must pay. I would even guess that a part of the motivation for the action in setting up this exhibition is due to the tradition of justice and altruism in jewish culture. Perhaps their countrymen in Likud should be examining themselves to see if they are the 'self hating' Jews.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CapelDodger


I'm not wedded to the term, so OK, no more H word. (As to the rest of the diatribe, I think we should just draw a veil over it.)
Thank you Capel Dodger. The rest was a joke of course the kind I have learned from you here. ;)

But I will continue to mention Herzl and his scheme in a derogatory way because the more I get to know about him the more I dislike him. This is your right. Hertzl was an historical figure and he is subjected to criticism. (I doubt if I could dislike nationalist zionism - nationalism generally - any more than I already do.) The problem is--if there is any problem--that in you brain the problem of modern world is nationalism. Ok, but you have stuck only on zionism. It's like you think that everything starts and ends to zionism. I just came across this from him, quoted in Bein's biography:
Incredibly self-serving for the narcissist who wanted to be the Father of the Jewish State. Loyalty (to him and his scheme), enthusiasm (for him and his scheme) ... In his scheme the "best" people are like bees in a hive. Hey Capel Dodger, again you are over the edge. I have to look in my parents' house to find my history books from school where they talked about "brotherless nations" only two one the planet, the Greeks and the Jews and if you exclude the jews that they are infidels that exist to keep the cosmic balance, the Greeks are the blessed people, destined to die for their country. Our national Anthem?It talks about the sacred bones of Greeks where liberty sprung from.

Get over zionism Capel Dodger because it makes you look really prejudiced. If you have a point about nationalism you lose it because of the way you talk of zionism. If I wasn't intelligent enough to understand the value of the people and their charachter you would have become food for crocodiles in this forum meaning that I am serious when I say that what you write appears really prejudiced but the reason I believe that you are not is because I trust that you are very smart to be a racist. Trust is a feeling and feelings do not constitute rational arguments though. As to being an outsider, I think it's better to approach a religion as a non-believer if you want to understand it (which I do). It's also better to approach history knowing there isn't actually a Creator pulling the strings, and without commitment to a mythology. Oh yes the supremacy of the atheists over the idiot theists.

This is not what I meant with the word outsider.What I meant is that it's easy to criticize zionists when you are not the pariah of the society the way jews were. I am afraid that I will have to return to the discussion of nationalism.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much support for it either by Aerial Sharon.

You must not have heard of the security fence then. It's saving lives on both sides.

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong I am happy to support a call for the Palestinians to stop bulldozing the houses of innocent people. That would also be a good start, would it not?

There are some real issues among Palestinian-Arab Muslims and Christians that involve taking lands and illegally building homes and apartments, I suppose that involves bulldozing. Knock yourself out.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


You must not have heard of the security fence then. It's saving lives on both sides.



There are some real issues among Palestinian-Arab Muslims and Christians that involve taking lands and illegally building homes and apartments, I suppose that involves bulldozing. Knock yourself out.

And who decides what is legal and illegal? Why do I even bother asking the question.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
I am completely amazed by this, your latest, bizarre post. I repeat. The killing of innocent children needs to stop.
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/0pal-child-abuse-1970.jpg
(Courtesy of LIFE magazine June 17, 1970 issue)

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Suicide bombers kill innocent people in circumstances which guarantee innocent children are murdered.
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/al-aqsa-kids-02.jpg
(Courtesy of the AL Aksa Martyrs Brigades)


Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Ariel Sharon sends pilots to assassinate mere suspects in circumstances that guarantee innocent children are killed.
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/an-najah-child-abuse.jpg
(Courtesy of Hamas)

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Stopping the murder of innocent children would a good place to start, not end, the peace process.
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/child-abuse-01.jpg
(Courtesy of Little Green Footballs)

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Educating everyone to respect everyone else would also be an important part of the process. The Palestinian Authority allows the Palestinian terror groups to operate in Palestinian civilian areas, conceal their bases in Palestinian civilian areas and use palestinian civilian areas for cover, or as it is popularily known, to use palestinian civilians as human sheilds. That makes palestinian civilians, including children, the inadvertent target of retaliation. The Palestinian Authority also teaches jihad and martyrdom (http://www.edume.org/reports/) to children in palestinian schools.

So who is endangering Palestinian children E.J.? Sharon OR Arafat and the Palestinian Authority?

That is what always amazes me about the Israel/Sharon haters, they never blame the people putting the children in the position they are in, they blame everyone else on earth but the people endangering them. I would love if palestinian children didn't have to grow up learning everything they know from the islamofascists of Fateh, Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Al Aksa Martyrs brigades. I would love if palestinian children didn't have to be afraid of IDF guns. But I can't do a thing about it, I don't run the Palestinian schools, I don't run the Palestinian Authority, Arafat does.

[Cleopatra]

Ok I didn't want to start a thread about this because I know how it would end but I am posting this in response to z-n's post

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1087725478828

Fatah committed to Aksa Martyrs
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH



Advertisement


The Palestinian Authority has no plans to dismantle the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, the armed wing of Fatah, Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei announced on Sunday. He acknowledged that the group is part of Fatah and said its gunmen are entitled to play a political role in the future.

"We have clearly declared that the Aksa Martyrs Brigades are part of Fatah," Qurei said in an interview with the London-based Asharq al-Awsat newspaper. "We are committed to them and Fatah bears full responsibility for the group."[...]

The Aksa Martyrs Brigades will not be dismantled."
Qurei said the Palestinians would continue to fight against Israel for as long as the occupation exists. But, he went on, "the resistance is not only an armed struggle."

I remind you that according to the Road Map Plan that the PA has accepted and signed all terrorist organizations should be dismantled.

And also note with whom what sort of people is expected to negotiate for peace( from the same article):

"There is nothing called 'prime minister' and 'interior minister,'" [Qurei] said. "There is a Palestinian establishment called the Palestinian Authority and it is headed by President Yasser Arafat."

For those who get upset only with Ariel Sharon.

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:
The problem is--if there is any problem--that in you brain the problem of modern world is nationalism. Ok, but you have stuck only on zionism. It's like you think that everything starts and ends to zionism.
Hey, I started a whole thread on Nationalism. With my commitment problems, I might add. Zionism was fairly tangential on that thread. I'm not starting these threads on Israel, and the number of them underlines its current importance. If someone wants to start a thread on Chechnya I'll contribute to that if I have anything to say.
... the Greeks are the blessed people, destined to die for their country.
That's a blessing? As you know but others may not, the Greek war for independence which devastated the country (and probably set back its development by a century or more) wasn't a home-grown affair, it was the creation of ex-patriot, Westernised glory-heads such as the Philiki Eteria. The ordinary population paid the price. The parallels with zionism are striking. The nation starts as someone's dream, ends up as other people's nightmares.
Oh yes the supremacy of the atheists over the idiot theists.
Or Axiom 3, as I refer to it. When it comes to understanding - or at least speculating on - what actually happened in Sinai around 1200BCE, factoring in an actual god doesn't help. The same applies with David. And zionism, for that matter.
... you would have become food for crocodiles in this forum ...
Could you give up on zenith-nadir and cut to the snappy-snap, red foam, smiling crocodile scene? For all our sakes.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I remind you that according to the Road Map Plan that the PA has accepted and signed all terrorist organizations should be dismantled.September 1993 - Israel-PLO Recognition:
The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators. September 1993 - Israel-Palestinian Declaration of Principles, (Oslo 1):
In order to guarantee public order and internal security for the Palestinians of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the Council will establish a strong police force, while Israel will continue to carry the responsibility for defending against external threats, as well as the responsibility for overall security of Israelis for the purpose of safeguarding their internal security and public order.May 1994 - Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area:
Except for the arms, ammunition and equipment of the Palestinian Police described in Annex I, Article III, and those of the Israeli military forces, no organization or individual in the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area shall manufacture, sell, acquire, possess, import or otherwise introduce into the Gaza Strip or the Jericho Area any firearms, ammunition, weapons, explosives, gunpowder or any related equipment, unless otherwise provided for in Annex I.August 1994 - Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities (Israel-PLO):
With regard to each of the Spheres, Israel and the Palestinian Authority will ensure that their respective systems contribute to the peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples and to peace in the entire region, and will refrain from the introduction of any motifs that could adversely affect the process of reconciliation.September 1995 - Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians:
Except for the arms, ammunition and equipment of the Palestinian Police described in Annex I, and those of the Israeli military forces, no organization, group or individual in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip shall manufacture, sell, acquire, possess, import or otherwise introduce into the West Bank or the Gaza Strip any firearms, ammunition, weapons, explosives, gunpowder or any related equipment, unless otherwise provided for in Annex I.October 1998 - The Wye River Plantation Agreement:
In the provisions on security arrangements of the Interim Agreement, the Palestinian side agreed to take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against the Israeli side, against individuals falling under the Israeli side's authority and against their property, just as the Israeli side agreed to take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities and against their property. The two sides also agreed to take legal measures against within their jurisdiction and to prevent incitement against each other by any organizations, groups or individuals within their jurisdiction.September 1999 - Sharm el-Sheikh Memorandum:
The two Sides will, in accordance with the prior agreements, act to ensure the immediate, efficient and effective handling of any incident involving a threat or act of terrorism, violence or incitement, whether committed by Palestinians or Israelis. To this end, they will cooperate in the exchange of information and coordinate policies and activities. Each side shall immediately and effectively respond to the occurrence or anticipated occurrence of an act of terrorism, violence or incitement and shall take all necessary measures to prevent such an occurrence.
July 2000 - Trilateral Statement on the Middle East Peace Summit at Camp David:
The two sides understand the importance of avoiding unilateral actions that prejudge the outcome of negotiations and that their differences will be resolved only by good faith negotiations.June 2001 - Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan):
The PA will move immediately to apprehend, question, and incarcerate terrorists in the West Bank and Gaza and will provide the security committee the names of those arrested as soon as they are apprehended, as well as a readout of actions taken.October 2002 - The Performance-Based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict:
Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel’s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel.


There are the exact quotes from ten years of peace treaties. As one can see there has never been an end of incitement, the terrorists have never been stopped, guns and explosives have never been confiscated and there has never been an end to armed activity or acts of violence against Israelis. In fact it is quite the opposite, the Palestinian Authority funds terror groups, (see Cleopatra's link), they incite terror, (see http://www.edume.org/reports/ ), they allow guns to be bought, (see: 50 tons of arms in the Karin A affair), they allow arms to be smuggled, (see the tunnels from Egypt into Gaza), they allow explosives to be built in Palestinian civilian areas and rockets fired from within Palestinian civilians areas.

Had Arafat and the Palestinian Authority done what ten treaties call upon them to do the occupation would be over and the IDF would have no business in Gaza or the West Bank.

[demon]

"Had Arafat and the Palestinian Authority done what ten treaties call upon them to do the occupation would be over and the IDF would have no business in Gaza or the West Bank."

What about the "settlers", does that go for them too?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CapelDodger

Hey, I started a whole thread on Nationalism. With my commitment problems, I might add. You are insufferable Capel Dodger , considering that both of us know how that thread was started.I'm not starting these threads on Israel, and the number of them underlines its current importance. If someone wants to start a thread on Chechnya I'll contribute to that if I have anything to say. This is true.

That's a blessing? This is how we are taught to believe.This is why little Welsh kids were not allowed to talk their language, for their own good.This is how it works everywhere.As you know but others may not, the Greek war for independence which devastated the country (and probably set back its development by a century or more) wasn't a home-grown affair, it was the creation of ex-patriot, Westernised glory-heads such as the Philiki Eteria. The ordinary population paid the price. The parallels with zionism are striking. The nation starts as someone's dream, ends up as other people's nightmares. The same way with the zionists though, the guys of the Filiki Eteria were well settled in the ottoman status quo and those who started the revolution in the Peloponesse were really wealthy and they didn't have any reason to oppose to the ottomans, the source of their worth but still they lost everything. The head of the Army of the greek guerillas could barely talk Greek, since he was an officer of the British Army in Corfu. He didn't have any reason to quit his nice life but yet he did.

Or Axiom 3, as I refer to it. When it comes to understanding - or at least speculating on - what actually happened in Sinai around 1200BCE, factoring in an actual god doesn't help. The same applies with David. And zionism, for that matter. Yes, I guess that the New World has been discovered and these are great news but it happened 600 years ago.

Could you give up on zenith-nadir and cut to the snappy-snap, red foam, smiling crocodile scene? For all our sakes. You know very well that my reasons for discussing with Z-N and you are not the same.

I discuss with you because I enjoy your sense of humor and because you are knowledgable and many times I have to do some serious reading in order to address your posts and I like that. Also I do not wish the fence -sitters to believe that you know as many things as you appear to when it comes to jewish history. :c1:

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by demon
What about the "settlers", does that go for them too? September 1993 - Israel-Palestinian Declaration of Principles, (Oslo 1):
Israel will continue to be responsible for external security, and for internal security and public order of settlements and Israelis. Israeli military forces and civilians may continue to use roads freely within the Gaza Strip and the Jericho area.Nothing regarding the freezing of settlements.May 1994 - Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area:
Israel has authority over the Settlements, the Military Installation Area, Israelis, external security, internal security and public order of Settlements, the Military Installation Area and Israelis, and those agreed powers and responsibilities specified in this Agreement.Nothing regarding the freezing of settlements.August 1994 - Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities (Israel-PLO):
In accordance with the Declaration of Principles, the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority with regard to the powers and responsibilities transferred by this Agreement will not apply to Jerusalem, settlements, military locations and, unless otherwise provided in this Agreement, Israelis.Nothing regarding the freezing of settlements.September 1995 - Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians:
The territorial jurisdiction of the Council shall encompass Gaza Strip territory, except for the Settlements and the Military Installation Area shown on map No. 2, and West Bank territory, except for Area C which, except for the issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations.Nothing regarding the freezing of settlements.October 1998 - The Wye River Plantation Agreement:
Nothing regarding the freezing of settlements.September 1999 - Sharm el-Sheikh Memorandum:
Nothing regarding the freezing of settlements.July 2000 - Trilateral Statement on the Middle East Peace Summit at Camp David:
Nothing regarding the freezing of settlements.June 2001 - Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan):
Nothing regarding the freezing of settlements.October 2002 - The Performance-Based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict:
GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001. Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements).
There you go demon, nothing on paper or negotiated upon regarding the freezing of settlements until October 2002. That's one and a half years ago if you are counting.

I remind you the obligation of the Palestinian Authority to stop terror has been repeated in every single signed treaty since 1993. So your irrelevant and empty comparison between settlements and the cessation of palestinian terrorism is?

[demon]

"So your irrelevant and empty comparison between settlements and the cessation of palestinian terrorism is?"

So the settlements aren`t a problem?
Whatever.

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:
Also I do not wish the fence -sitters to believe that you know as many things as you appear to when it comes to jewish history.
Appearances are not always deceptive. I've been on the case for a long time. It's a fascinating subject.
The same way with the zionists though, the guys of the Filiki Eteria were well settled in the ottoman status quo and those who started the revolution in the Peloponesse were really wealthy and they didn't have any reason to oppose to the ottomans, the source of their worth but still they lost everything.
The Filiki Eteria kicked the whole thing off with Ipsilantis's invasion of Moldavia in 1821 in the name of a Greek revolt. That gave certain Ottoman officials and officers in Greece the excuse to turn on the local rich, either killing them or forcing them into the conflict. There were a variety of guerilla armies with leaders of all types.

While harmless separately, in combination we're pure poison to a thread, aren't we?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
The Filiki Eteria kicked the whole thing off with Ipsilantis's invasion of Moldavia in 1821 in the name of a Greek revolt. That gave certain Ottoman officials and officers in Greece the excuse to turn on the local rich, either killing them or forcing them into the conflict. There were a variety of guerilla armies with leaders of all types.

Before the outbreak of the war of the independance in 1821 we have had 23 attempts to revolt against the Ottomans. Remember what I think of Zionism? It existed long before Hertzl.

While harmless separately, in combination we're pure poison to a thread, aren't we? I want to believe that our discussions bring something out of the norms in this forum and that we discuss about things people usually don't in such fora. :)

On of the greatest compliments I have received came from Supercharts( a poster who doesn't post here any more) when he told me in Renata's forum that since he started reading my posts here, he reconsidered for some of his ideas regarding the conflict and Supercharts is a proud american jew, you know.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by demon
So the settlements aren`t a problem?
Whatever. They are of course but it seems that the Palestinian delegations to the peace talks focused more on other things like Jerusalem. How it is possible to start the negotiation with Jerusalem?

According to the Geneva Initiative all settlements will be removed and the Palestianins will resign from the right to return.

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:
I want to believe that our discussions bring something out of the norms in this forum ...
That's a point we can agree on. Let's do Greece some other time.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by demon
So the settlements aren`t a problem? Whatever. This is what kills me about guys like you Demon. Jews, aka settlers, can be killed if they want to live beside Palestinians, in fact no jew should ever live on palestinian land ever, but that's not wrong or completely racist. The Palestinian Authority has never negotiated in good faith to stop terrorism, but that's not an issue, nor shall it ever be. Palestinian children are taught martyrdom and jihad from birth by the islamofascists of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fateh but Israel is the one endangering them. Suicide bombers homes are bulldozed, but that is not because of suicide bombing that is because of Sharon's evil policies. All jews have to leave Gaza but that is not good thing that is turning Gaza into a giant prison. Israel has been forced to build a frikking wall to stop women and teen suicide bombers entering from the West Bank, but that is "apartheid", a war crime and a land grab.

Starting to see a pattern yet? Nothing is Arafat's and the Palestinian Authoritys fault. Not the terrorism, not the corruption, not the child soldiers, not the failed Palestinian economy, not the failure of ten peace treatys, not the suicide bombers, not the first and second intifadas, not the embezzlement of foreign aid, not the smuggling tunnels from egypt, not the ships of arms from Iran, not the Fulbright convoys blown up in Gaza, not the lack of elections since 1993, not the hijackings, not the 30 years of terrorism... Infact nothing is Arafat's and the Palestinian Authority's fault, while everything is because of Sharon and the settlers.

A perfect example of denial for those psychology buffs out there.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
This is what kills me about guys like you Demon. Jews, aka settlers, can be killed if they want to live beside Palestinians, in fact no jew should ever live on palestinian land ever, but that's not wrong or completely racist.

This exhibition quite clearly documented, and I repeat, Palestinian shopkeeper goes home, settlers occupy shop. It is not living beside, it is invasion, on a caculated and incremental scale.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
This exhibition quite clearly documented, and I repeat, Palestinian shopkeeper goes home, settlers occupy shop. It is not living beside, it is invasion, on a caculated and incremental scale. I am not going to get in to a debate which condones suicide bombing or terrorism because some jewish zealot nutball squatted inside a palestinian's shop. Nor am I going to excuse 30 years of PLO terrorism because some jewish zealot nutball squatted inside a palestinians shop. Nor am I going to excuse Hamas and Islamic Jihad indoctrinating children to martyr themselves on a Egged bus because some jewish zealot nutball squatted inside a palestinians shop. Nor am I going to excuse the Palestinian Authority's repeated obligations under ten peace treaties to stop all terror groups because some jewish zealot nutball squatted inside a palestinians shop. Nor am I going to excuse the failure of the Palestinian Authority's to hold elections, it's corruption and incompetence because some jewish zealot nutball squatted inside a palestinians shop. But you will.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
(Courtesy of LIFE magazine June 17, 1970 issue)
Unfortunately this means nothing to me.(Courtesy of the AL Aksa Martyrs Brigades)
This also means nothing. Could I ask you to convey your message in a way that normal people can understand?(Courtesy of Hamas) I must assume that you actually feel you are conveying a message of some sort here. Are you able to put things into english perhaps with a little, you know, sense.(Courtesy of Little Green Footballs) . It appears you can't even do that. I am sorry for you.The Palestinian Authority allows the Palestinian terror groups to operate in Palestinian civilian areas, conceal their bases in Palestinian civilian areas and use palestinian civilian areas for cover, or as it is popularily known, to use palestinian civilians as human sheilds. That makes palestinian civilians, including children, the inadvertent target of retaliation. The Palestinian Authority also teaches jihad and martyrdom to children in palestinian schools. Inadvertent eh? Ariel Sharon deliberately attacks suspects in ways that guarantee innocent children are killed. When is one child murderer better than another zenith-nadi?

I call on all terrorists to stop terrorising. Sharon sends Mossad around the world to murder innocent people. Perhaps you don't think that should stop as well?So who is endangering Palestinian children E.J.? Sharon OR Arafat and the Palestinian Authority? Everyone who puts them in danger. He bulldozes the houses of innocent people. He builds apartheid walls cutting people off from their livlihoods. He assassinates people without the minor detail of a trial. Shouldn't that stop as well?That is what always amazes me about the Israel/Sharon haters,.. It seems you cannot differentiate the tactics of Sharon from the country of Israel.Some of your pilots and commandos can....they never blame the people putting the children in the position they are in, they blame everyone else on earth but the people endangering them. Once again you are making a false statement. Aren't facts important to you or do you just imagine that this sort of 'flexibility' with the truth advanceshyour cause? Please provide evidence that people who do not like Sharon never blame the people putting the children in the position they are in.

Are you seriously trying to claim that Sharon's actions are not putting innocent children's lives in danger?

I would love if palestinian children didn't have to grow up learning everything they know from the islamofascists of Fateh, Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Al Aksa Martyrs brigades. I would love if palestinian children didn't have to be afraid of IDF guns. But I can't do a thing about it, I don't run the Palestinian schools, I don't run the Palestinian Authority, Arafat does. Why not ask Sharon to stop targetting and assassinating them and their familes without trial and building apartheid walls and destroying their crops and denying them Wouldn't that be a good start?

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by a unique person
Here is a list that may interest you. The number of Palestinian children killed was far larger than the list of dead Israeli children. The existence of the list, itself is, however, a tragedy on a grand scale.

That is a major tragedy and unlikely to be helped by the likes of Sharon.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
You must not have heard of the security fence then. It's saving lives on both sides.
The next time your neighbour illegally steals your land to build an apartheid wall and deny you access to hospital treatment and your livliehood I assume you will wholeheartedly support it in the way you support this land theft and this apartheid and this intternational law breaking.

It doesn't happen in your country and you know it never will. There are some real issues among Palestinian-Arab Muslims and Christians that involve taking lands and illegally building homes and apartments, I suppose that involves bulldozing. Knock yourself out. No change there then. I wonder what those would be? You don't say.

Would it be illegally stealing land to build illegal apartheid walls? Would it include illegally building settlements on stolen land? Would it include breaking international law? Would it include terrorising innocent children? Would it include making access to hospitals difficult? Would it include bulldozing the olive groves of innocent people? Would it include collective punishment of an entire group of people? Would it include acting like an international pariah?

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
But you will.

Quack alert.

Notice the clear prediction of the future.

It seems we have psychics amongst us to whom the truth means little.

You just cannot make this sort of stuff up.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong [B]
Would it be illegally stealing land to build illegal apartheid walls? Would it ...?B]

Previously you said, I am happy to support a call for the Palestinians to stop bulldozing the houses of innocent people. That would also be a good start, would it not?

It might be, if you were sincere. The statement seems to imply you are just as interested in injustices perfomed by the Palestinian-Arabs and not just what you percieve to be injustices done to them.

PA officials accused of stealing Christian lands (http://www.icej.org/cgi-local/view.cgi?type=headline&artid=2002/11/12/502031403)

Illegal construction in Jerusalem. (http://www.jcpa.org/jlmbldg.htm)

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
t might be, if you were sincere. The statement seems to imply you are just as interested in injustices perfomed by the Palestinian-Arabs and not just what you percieve to be injustices done to them.
Ah the whiff of a typical Mycroft argument. If you disagree with the person you debate with call them names. At least you are consistent. Why not support your claim with evidence this time for a change or are you just going to carry on making things up?

I am deeply serious in the proposal I made. I call on all palestinians to stop bulldozing the homes of innocent Israelis. What could be clear than that. I invite you to call on Ariel Sharon to do the same.

For the sake of factual accuracy are you now claiming that the homes of innocent people have not been bulldozed?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
For the sake of factual accuracy are you now claiming that the homes of innocent people have not been bulldozed? Bulldozing homes began in 2002-2003 when all other courses of action failed to stop the islamofascists operating from said homes within the West Bank and Gaza under the auspices of the Palestinian Authority. Saddam would reward suicide bombers familes $25,000 U.S. for every family member that "martyred" themselves against Israel. Instead of reward, which you have no problem with, Israel began punishing those same families by bulldozing their homes. Likewise with firing positions from apartments/homes and tunnels under homes. Bulldozing did not exsist for the first intifada nor for the second intifada until all other courses of action failed to stop the islamofascist groups like Hamas, Al Aksa, Fateh, Islamic Jihad.

Had the Palestinian Authority stopped the islamofascists as they are obligated to do under ten peace treaties, had Saddam not rewarded families for raising human bombs Israel would not have to punish families for a) becoming combatants and b) supporting a combatants.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Bulldozing homes began in 2002-2003 when all other courses of action failed to stop the islamofascists operating from said homes within the West Bank and Gaza under the auspices of the Palestinian Authority. Saddam would reward suicide bombers familes $25,000 U.S. for every family member that "martyred" themselves against Israel. Instead of reward, which you have no problem with, Israel began punishing those same families by bulldozing their homes. Likewise with firing positions from apartments/homes and tunnels under homes. Bulldozing did not exsist for the first intifada nor for the second intifada until all other courses of action failed to stop the islamofascist groups like Hamas, Al Aksa, Fateh, Islamic Jihad.

Had the Palestinian Authority stopped the islamofascists as they are obligated to do under ten peace treaties, had Saddam not rewarded families for raising human bombs Israel would not have to punish families for a) becoming combatants and b) supporting a combatants.

Indeed.

War always creates hardships for civilian populations, and this is made even worse when one side purposefully makes it difficult to distinguish between civilians and combatants.

To answer E.J.'s question, I do not believe a homeowner who allows his home to be used as a destination point for weapons smuggling, who allows his home to be used by militants as a firing position, or who allows a member of his family to become a shaheed is "innocent."

At the same time, I also recognize these things may happen without the homeowners consent. In that case, the homeowner has my sympathy, but the responsibility lays with the militants who force this on the homeowner. Such as in the following article:

Palestinian teen killed trying to stop Gaza bombing (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/97261/1/.html)

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
Bulldozing homes began in 2002-2003 when all other courses of action failed to stop the islamofascists operating from said homes within the West Bank and Gaza under the auspices of the Palestinian Authority.

Let us have a look at the implications of that statement and all the implied and overt claims therein.

In it you appear to be implying that all the houses bulldozed had islamofascists (whatever they are) operating from them. If this is indeed what you are claiming, can I simply ask you to present your evidence?

I note that you have been asked to support your claims before and have declined to do so. Saddam would reward suicide bombers familes $25,000 U.S. for every family member that "martyred" themselves against Israel. Are you now trying to claim that all the homes bulldozed contained familes that received money from Saddam Hussein? If you are, can I ask you a simple question? Can you present your evidence for that claim? Instead of reward, which you have no problem with,... This is a complete lie. I notice that once again you make a claim without providing a scintilla of evidence for it but hey ho, plus ca change. I challenge you publicly to support this false claim by quoting where I ever said anything of the sort. You willnaturally want to do this immediately if you have any regard for your own honour.
...Israel began punishing those same families by bulldozing their homes. Are you are now trying to claim that every single bulldozed house only belonged to families that received money from Saddam Hussein? If so, can I ask you to provide proof of your claim. Likewise with firing positions from apartments/homes and tunnels under homes. Bulldozing did not exsist for the first intifada nor for the second intifada until all other courses of action failed to stop the islamofascist groups like Hamas, Al Aksa, Fateh, Islamic Jihad.What is your claim here? Are you trying to claim that all the bulldozed houses contained firing positions? If so, can I ask you to provide evidence for that claim.

Are you now trying to claim that all the houses bulldozed belonged to groups such as Hamas, Al Aksa, Fateh, Islamic Jihad? If so, can I ask you to supply evidence for that claim?Had the Palestinian Authority stopped the islamofascists as they are obligated to do under ten peace treaties, had Saddam not rewarded families for raising human bombs Israel would not have to punish families for a) becoming combatants and b) supporting a combatants. Are you now trying to claim that all the bulldozed houses belonged to families (does that include the small children and grannies) which were combatants and/or supported combatants? If so, can I ask you to provide evidence for that claim.

Can I would point out that these are merely simple questions. The answers should be very easy for you if you have any respect for the accuracy of all your claims on this site.

[E.J.Armstrong]

posted by Mycroft
Indeed.

Interesting. In view of your response it seems that you support zenith-nadir's post and, it seems, the claims and the lie contained therein. If that is 'indeed' the case, can I ask you the questions I have asked zenith-nadir? Just a simple question.War always creates hardships for civilian populations, and this is made even worse when one side purposefully makes it difficult to distinguish between civilians and combatants. It is also the case when authorities (some purporting to be decent democrats) deliberately target untried people for assassination in circumstances which guarantee the deaths of innocent children. Hardship is also deliberately created when authorities collectively punishing entire groups of people for the crimes of others. This is not the actions of a decent democratic state acting in conformance with international law. Destroying the homes of innocent people is not the action of reasonable authorities where ever they come from.

As support, I offer the fact that it doesn't happen in your land or my land. When were the homes of the Unabomber's family members bulldozed? Answer- they weren't. I wonder why? Could it be that the good people of the USA would riot if it happened? Who knows. Perhaps you could let me know when a US administration introduces that particular law? As I understand it not even the looniest of right wing politicians in the USA is demanding that be introduced but perhaps you could list all those you know who are, if indeed there are any?To answer E.J.'s question, I do not believe a homeowner who allows his home to be used as a destination point for weapons smuggling, who allows his home to be used by militants as a firing position, or who allows a member of his family to become a shaheed is "innocent." Far from answering my question you have dodged it. Let me ask my simple question yet again.

For the sake of factual accuracy are you now claiming that the homes of innocent people have not been bulldozed?

If so, can you provide evidence for your claim? A simple answer to a simple question would suffice.At the same time, I also recognize these things may happen without the homeowners consent. In that case, the homeowner has my sympathy, but the responsibility lays with the militants who force this on the homeowner. Such as in the following article: Are you now trying to claim that every single house that has been bulldozed have been used for weapons smuggling, or as a firing position or had a member of the family as a shaheed? It is a simple question. Perhaps you have a simple answer or will you answer another question this time as well?

I notice that you did not call on Ariel Sharon to stop bulldozing the homes of innocent people. That is so sad.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Let us have a look at the implications of that statement and all the implied and overt claims therein. In it you appear to be implying that all the houses bulldozed had islamofascists (whatever they are) operating from them. If this is indeed what you are claiming, can I simply ask you to present your evidence? 1) islamofascists, look up the word fascism and then add "islamo" to the front of it.
2) I never claimed "all houses", I know innocent peoples homes are destroyed. Why?

Underground with the Israeli army - Friday, 4 June, 2004, 11:45 GMT (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3775219.stm) The Israelis say they have found 90 tunnels since the present phase of the Palestinian intifada began in 2000. Some of the tunnels are more than 100m long, running under the border from Egypt and coming up inside houses, or back yards. "We are fighting our way to find this tunnel. It means that when you get inside this neighbourhood, you are fighting to find a tunnel, and you are fighting against the terrorists who are conducting operations in this area. It means booby traps, anti-tank missiles, snipers all over this area."Palestinian teen killed trying to stop Gaza bombing - Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:16 AM ET (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1503&ncid=1312&e=2&u=/afp/20040723/ts_afp/mideast_040723151628)"A Palestinian teenager was killed as he tried to stop militants from planting a bomb to attack Israeli troops in the Gaza Strip. Several residents asked the gunmen not to plant the explosive next to their fields and they refused," one witness who asked not to be named told AFP. The residents apparently feared the roadside bombing would spark another deadly raid into the re-occupied area. Israel has vowed to stop militants from using Beit Hanun as a launchpad for firing rockets and bulldozed fields where attackers hide. Blast in House in Gaza Refugee Camp-Witnesses - Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:51 PM ET (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=1312&e=13&u=/ap/20040719/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_gaza_2)GAZA (Reuters) - An explosion tore through a house in Shatti refugee camp in the Gaza Strip on Monday, wounding three people in a blast that Palestinian militants blamed on Israel. It took place inside the house of a family known to be linked to militant groups, leading some residents to conclude the explosion may have been caused when explosives detonated prematurely. Witnesses said they saw no sign of Israeli helicopters or aircraft flying overhead as often happens before missile strikes against militant targets.Usually governments keep terrorist organizations from operating within civilian areas. Those niceties dissapear once one visits Arafatistan where the islamofascist terror organizations have free reign. They have brought the war literally to the doorstep of the Palestinian people and yes, innocent peoples homes do get bulldozed.



Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
I note that you have been asked to support your claims before and have declined to do so. Wow, you got me there, I never support my claims.

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Are you now trying to claim that all the homes bulldozed contained familes that received money from Saddam Hussein?Nope. Not one bit, as explained above. But alot did; Saddam stokes war with suicide bomber cash - March 26 2002 (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/03/25/1017004766310.html?oneclick=true) The hall was packed and the intake of breath was audible as a special announcement was made to the war widows of the West Bank - Saddam Hussein would pay $US25,000 ($47,000) to the family of each suicide bomber as an enticement for others to volunteer for martyrdom in the name of the Palestinian people.

The men at the top table then opened Saddam's chequebook and, as the names of 47 martyrs were called, family representatives went up to sign for cheques written in US dollars. Those of two suicide bombers were the first to be paid the new rate of $US25,000 and those whose relatives had died in other clashes with the Israeli military were given $US10,000 each.

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
I notice that once again you make a claim without providing a scintilla of evidence for it but hey ho, plus ca change.That's me...Mr. No Evidence.

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Are you are now trying to claim that every single bulldozed house only belonged to families that received money from Saddam Hussein? If so, can I ask you to provide proof of your claim. What is your claim here?Nope, already asked and answered.Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Are you trying to claim that all the bulldozed houses contained firing positions? If so, can I ask you to provide evidence for that claim.Already asked and answered.Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong Are you now trying to claim that all the houses bulldozed belonged to groups such as Hamas, Al Aksa, Fateh, Islamic Jihad? If so, can I ask you to supply evidence for that claim? Are you now trying to claim that all the bulldozed houses belonged to families (does that include the small children and grannies) which were combatants and/or supported combatants? If so, can I ask you to provide evidence for that claim.Already asked and answered.Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Can I would point out that these are merely simple questions. The answers should be very easy for you if you have any respect for the accuracy of all your claims on this site. Already asked and answered.;)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Bulldozing homes began in 2002-2003 when all other courses of action failed to stop the islamofascists operating from said homes within the West Bank and Gaza under the auspices of the Palestinian Authority. Saddam would reward suicide bombers familes $25,000 U.S. for every family member that "martyred" themselves against Israel. Instead of reward, which you have no problem with, Israel began punishing those same families by bulldozing their homes. Likewise with firing positions from apartments/homes and tunnels under homes. Bulldozing did not exsist for the first intifada nor for the second intifada until all other courses of action failed to stop the islamofascist groups like Hamas, Al Aksa, Fateh, Islamic Jihad.

Had the Palestinian Authority stopped the islamofascists as they are obligated to do under ten peace treaties, had Saddam not rewarded families for raising human bombs Israel would not have to punish families for a) becoming combatants and b) supporting a combatants.

Bulldozing of homes has been happening for over 50 years now. Wake up.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
It is also the case when authorities (some purporting to be decent democrats) deliberately target untried people for assassination in circumstances which guarantee the deaths of innocent children.

Yeah, blah, blah, whatever. Enemy combatants don't get trials, never have, we've been over this a million times. Let me ask you a few questions:

1) Is Israel expected to wage war in such a way that no innocent is ever harmed?

2) Are you aware of any war anywhere in any time of history where no innocents were harmed?

3) If you expect Israel to wage war and not ever harm any innocent, what is your opinion of Hamas who purposefully targets innocents?

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Wow, you got me there, I never support my claims.


Yeah, that is weird. Others criticize you for providing too much documentation, he comes along and claims you don't. I guess you just can't win.:con2:

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
1) islamofascists, look up the word fascism and then add "islamo" to the front of it.
Oh I get it now. Presumably that can be done with other religions?2) I never claimed "all houses", I know innocent peoples homes are destroyed. Why? In your claim you made no reference to any moderators such as some or a few, that is why. By doing so you implied that all the houses were occupied by islamofascists. Bulldozing the homes of innocenmt people is an act of terror.Usually governments keep terrorist organizations from operating within civilian areas. Those niceties dissapear once one visits Arafatistan where the islamofascist terror organizations have free reign. They have brought the war literally to the doorstep of the Palestinian people and yes, innocent peoples homes do get bulldozed. And that is an act of terror. Aerial Sharon chooses to murder people untried under the law in circumstances which guarantee innocent children die. That is terror. Wow, you got me there, I never support my claims. I note that you, not me, have stated that you never support your claims. I actually challenged you by saying ' I challenge you publicly to support this false claim by quoting where I ever said anything of the sort. You willnaturally want to do this immediately if you have any regard for your own honour.' I notice that you have repeatedly chosen not to support your lie.

Nope. Not one bit, as explained above. But alot did; You actually claimed that '....Israel began punishing those same families by bulldozing their homes.' So that was misleading. because many of the people did not receive money from Hussein. 47 people went up. How many innocent homes have been bulldozed?That's me...Mr. No Evidence Again, out of the mouths of... Given this latest claim perhaps you will now justify the claim you made about me when I put it to you ' I challenge you publicly to support this false claim by quoting where I ever said anything of the sort. You willnaturally want to do this immediately if you have any regard for your own honour.' How many times do you have to be asked to justify your claim? Are you going to keep on running away?Already asked and answered I notice your propensity for making claims with no moderators. As to this latest claim I am glad you think so. Unfortunately it is not true. Perhaps you will now be able to address the challenge I have made which you have repeatedly ignored.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
Yeah, blah, blah, whatever.
It's like being in the country when you get the first whiff of a Mycroft post.Enemy combatants don't get trials, never have, we've been over this a million times. Unfortunately I am not talking about enemy combatants. I'm talking about people killed without trial. What is the evidence that they are enemy combatants? The word of Sharon? A man who even 300 rabbis acknowledged as a liar? I am talking about deliberately setting out to terrorise collectively an entire group of people by attacking untried people in a way that innocent children are guaranteed to die. As you know.1) Is Israel expected to wage war in such a way that no innocent is ever harmed No. Israel is however expected to defend itself in a way that meets international standards of behaviour. I believe it does not. 2) Are you aware of any war anywhere in any time of history where no innocents were harmed? No, however I am aware of how countries have engaged in internationally unacceptable behaviour during wars in such a way that they were tried for crimes against humanity. Against which country exactly is Israel waging a war?3) If you expect Israel to wage war and not ever harm any innocent, what is your opinion of Hamas who purposefully targets innocents? I believe that the evidence shows that Sharon deliberately assassinates untried people in ways that guarantee innocent children die. I despise anyone who does that, including Hamas.

If Sharon will not obey the law, how can he call on others to do the same, as I do?

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
Yeah, that is weird. Others criticize you for providing too much documentation, he comes along and claims you don't. I guess you just can't win

Ah the true whiff of a Mycroft post. Misrepresentation.

Its really very simple. If you cannot see the point in justifying claims then so be it. You will be very happy in Uri Geller territory.

I note that you declined to answer the simple question I asked you but ho hum.

[demon]

E.J.armstrong:
"Israel is however expected to defend itself in a way that meets international standards of behaviour. I believe it does not."

Another horrifying story :

quote:
Death in a cemetery
By Gideon Levy

How many of us can imagine the night of horror that the Salah family endured? To lie on the floor of the living room for what seemed an eternity, embracing as one being, trembling with fear as the house was blasted with bullets and missiles; to watch the sniper's laser ray doing its dance of death across the apartment, searching out its victims; to see the missiles slamming into the walls of the house, missile after missile, as though an earthquake had struck; to get to their feet in the dark following the order to evacuate the building before it was demolished; to try to open the front door and discover that it had been twisted out of shape by the gunfire and couldn't be opened; to open a window and try to shout to the snipers, in the dark of the night, that the door was jammed; to see the father of the family collapse from a bullet fired into his neck by a sniper; to see the son collapse a few minutes later from a bullet in his cheek fired by a sniper; to watch, helpless, as your son lies on the floor, the life ebbing out of him, next to his dead father, and to cry for help, but to find that the soldiers will not allow anyone to enter; then to undergo an interrogation and humiliation; and to discover that the entire contents of the house had been destroyed....

snip

Two days later, on Monday of this week, soldiers killed another stone-thrower in the Balata camp cemetery. His name was Husam Abu Zeitouna. He was 14.

full story here: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/455097.html

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by DEmon
Another horrifying story

If this crime against humanity happened in Northern Ireland we would not have any sort of peace process.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Are you going to keep on running away? I notice your propensity for making claims with no moderators. As to this latest claim I am glad you think so. Unfortunately it is not true. Perhaps you will now be able to address the challenge I have made which you have repeatedly ignored.


:s2:

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
An icon.

As you provided no meaningful response to my simple questions, you
1/ have run away yet again from your own false claim
2/ apparently see no problem in misrepresenting the truth
3/ refuse to address the challenge made publicly to you to justify your own misrepresentation.

Just for the record let me repeat the challenge you continue to repeatedly run away from.

' I challenge you publicly to support this false claim by quoting where I ever said anything of the sort. You willnaturally want to do this immediately if you have any regard for your own honour.'

It seems you don't.

Ho hum.

[CapelDodger]

from E.J.Armstrong:' I challenge you publicly to support this false claim by quoting where I ever said anything of the sort. You willnaturally want to do this immediately if you have any regard for your own honour.'

It seems you don't.There ain't no "seems" about it.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J. the Troll I challenge you publicly to support this false claim by quoting where I ever said anything of the sort. You will naturally want to do this immediately if you have any regard for your own honour.' You know what E.J. ? I responded to your questions and backed my responses up with actual facts along with links 10 posts ago, you just have no rebuttal. You pack less punch than a tree sloth throwing leaves.

Originally posted by CapelDodger There ain't no "seems" about it. I can just picture Capel in a cheerleader outfit with E.J. Armstrong written in bold letters across the chest spinning pink pom poms singing "Go E.J....go E.J."....:D

[CapelDodger]

from zenith-nadir:Bulldozing homes began in 2002-2003 when all other courses of action failed to stop the islamofascists operating from said homes within the West Bank and Gaza under the auspices of the Palestinian Authority.Bulldozing began in 1948. As Arab villages were cleared most were bulldozed so that the inhabitants had nowhere to return to. The Irgun got very fond of blowing up Arab houses, preferably with people in them (sleeping is good, since sleeping people aren't dangerous) years before, but that's not strictly bulldozing. Bulldozing was resumed on a large scale in 1967 and has continued ever since. It was usually reported as demolition of unauthorised housing. There was, of course, no way for an Arab in the occupied territories to get authorisation for new building, but any house, however old, becomes "unauthorised" when a settlement is ready for expansion. Sharon's Arab nickname of Bulldozer was earned long before 2002.

I can see why your posts are usually content-free : when there is some content, you make an even bigger arse of yourself.

[CapelDodger]

from Mycroft:War always creates hardships for civilian populations, and this is made even worse when one side purposefully makes it difficult to distinguish between civilians and combatants.When a war of conquest and expulsion - such as the zionist project in Palestine - is launched, the agressors are making no distinction between civilians and combatants. And zionism makes no distinction between civilian and combatant within the Israeli community. All are there to serve The State and The Jewish People, like bees in a hive. When Israeli soldiers travel on civilian buses, they're part of a citizen army. When Arab combatants refuse to gather together in a safe spot away from buildings and populace, to get whacked by Israeli gun-ships, they're sneaky fellows. Perhaps Israel would take up the challenge of allowing the Palestinians to build a regular army, like theirs, with top-grade equipment and training, like theirs, and then take them on mano e mano? Winner takes all? After all, the Israelis can always fall back on the nuclear option.

[Cleopatra]

I won't break the Olympic Truce to debate your obsession with the Zionists Capel Dodger( only you and the extreme right in Israel uses the term zionist BTW) but I have read your comments about the zionists, the war and the role of zionism in the Holocaust and I just wish to remind you that your claims have been debunked in the thread about Antisemitism, so do not repeat them.

Thank you.

[CapelDodger]

Yo Cleopatra! Yeah, I'm back and I'm in a bad mood. Love the avatar.

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra: won't break the Olympic Truce ...Cleopatra, from you a truce is Olympian, not Olympic.

Capel "Too Clever for his Own Good" Dodger

[Cleopatra]

Save your charm for a british middle aged lady, it doesn't sell here, I won't be tired to remind you that. ;)

"The smart birdie is caught by the nose" ~ Greek proverb.

[CapelDodger]

from the esteemed Cleopatra, voice of reason in a world gone mad:to debate your obsession with the Zionists Capel Dodger( only you and the extreme right in Israel uses the term zionist BTW) but I have read your comments about the zionists, the war and the role of zionism in the Holocaust and I just wish to remind you that your claims have been debunked in the thread about Antisemitism, so do not repeat them.My interest (obsession, I ask you) in zionism can be explained not only by the accidents of my own personal experience and the fascinating and illuminating history of Judaism, but also by the purity of the nationalist exemplar that is the zionist project. I use the word zionist - first used in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Birnbaum.html)) according to more than one source - to specify this nationalist project rather than Jewish history, and to specify zionists rather than Jews. Despite the protestations of zenith-nadir, zionist and Jew are not interchangeable terms.

As to my comments, my claims have not been debunked, by your lawyerly wiles or anything else. The war in Palestine has roots that long pre-date the Holocaust. WW2 didn't start because of zionism or anti-semitism. And zionists have always been dismissive of the negative effect of their insistence - against the mainstream of European Jewry - on Jews being a nation, on Jewishness being a nationalist issue. The extent of the influence - possibly zero - that this had on the subsequent Holocaust is of less importance than the way the possibility was dismissed, simply because, if it were true, it would be unpalatable. Representative of a common reaction in nationalist circles. Responsibility for the Holocaust lies far more with the Catholic Church than it does with zionism.

[a_unique_person]

I don't think there are enough people replying to this thread, so I am going to bump it.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
from zenith-nadir:Bulldozing began in 1948. As Arab villages were cleared most were bulldozed so that the inhabitants had nowhere to return to. Was that after the the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded in May 1948? Since you clearly state "the inhabitants had nowhere to return to".Originally posted by CapelDodger The Irgun got very fond of blowing up Arab houses, preferably with people in them (sleeping is good, since sleeping people aren't dangerous) years before, but that's not strictly bulldozing.So you claim. Anytime you want to provide documentation from 1948 which shows Irgun "blowing up houses with people sleeping in them" be my guest. Originally posted by CapelDodger Bulldozing was resumed on a large scale in 1967 and has continued ever since.So what happened from 1949 to 1967 Capel? Israel perfected the bulldozer?Originally posted by CapelDodger It was usually reported as demolition of unauthorised housing. There was, of course, no way for an Arab in the occupied territories to get authorisation for new building, but any house, however old, becomes "unauthorised" when a settlement is ready for expansion. Sharon's Arab nickname of Bulldozer was earned long before 2002.Sharon was called "the bulldozer" because of his temperament not because in 2002 he began the policy of bulldozing houses after ten different peace treaties to stop the islamofascists failed. But most people use Arik. And since he did not control Israeli settlement policy prior to 2001 I think you are on the verge of making things up to substantiate you claim that "Sharon's Arab nickname of Bulldozer was earned long before 2002".Originally posted by CapelDodger I can see why your posts are usually content-free : when there is some content, you make an even bigger arse of yourself. Funny, E.J. claims that my posts lack "content" and "evidence" too. I find that highly amusing :D

[Jocko]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I don't think there are enough people replying to this thread, so I am going to bump it.

Sorry, right of return is off the table. Get used to it, to borrow a favorite phrase of yours.

[E.J.Armstrong]

[/]originally posted by zenith-nadir[/I]
You know what E.J. ? I responded to your questions and backed my responses up with actual facts along with links 10 posts ago, you just have no rebuttal. You pack less punch than a tree sloth throwing leaves.

You really have no respect for the truth whatsoever do you?

You did not answer the challenge I made to you. You ran away before and you are stilll running away.

Let me remind you of what the truth actually is.

You falsely claimed that ' Instead of reward, which you have no problem with,...'

I challenged you to justify that false claim when I posted ' This is a complete lie. I notice that once again you make a claim without providing a scintilla of evidence for it but hey ho, plus ca change. I challenge you publicly to support this false claim by quoting where I ever said anything of the sort. You willnaturally want to do this immediately if you have any regard for your own honour.

What was the response? Did you immediately justiy it? No. You simply ignored it. Therefore showing that you see no problem with lying and have no regard to the truth.

Given your failure to justify your false claim I then posted again ' I note that you, not me, have stated that you never support your claims. I actually challenged you by saying ' I challenge you publicly to support this false claim by quoting where I ever said anything of the sort. You willnaturally want to do this immediately if you have any regard for your own honour.' I notice that you have repeatedly chosen not to support your lie.'
What was your response to that challenge and the rest of the post? An in depth justification using my own words? No. An icon, which demonstrated your lack of interest in debate or the truth when you are challenged repeatedly about your false claims.

I then posted 'Just for the record let me repeat the challenge you continue to repeatedly run away from.

' I challenge you publicly to support this false claim by quoting where I ever said anything of the sort. You willnaturally want to do this immediately if you have any regard for your own honour.'

It seems you don't.'

You then made the claim at the start of this post and in making it ran away yet again from my original challenge.

The facts are that you have demonstrated a lack of respect for the truth and continue to run away from your own claims. Perhaps one day Walter, you will discover the difference between the truth and stuff you make up.

At the moment I am still waiting for an answer to my simple question?

I can just picture Capel in a cheerleader outfit with E.J. Armstrong written in bold letters across the chest spinning pink pom poms singing "Go E.J....go E.J."....

You just cannot make this stuff up.

Why not try answering my simple question instead of running away from the truth hurling abuse over your shoulder?

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
Funny, E.J. claims that my posts lack "content"...

Still showing no regard to the truth I see.

If your latest lie is true you will have no problem in quoting any words of mine that contain that phrase including the word you put in quotes. Please do so.

Incidently, what I do claim is that you are a proven liar as I have demonstrated in the post above.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
I note that you have been asked to support your claims before and have declined to do so. Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
I notice that once again you make a claim without providing a scintilla of evidence for it but hey ho, plus ca change. Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
You really have no respect for the truth whatsoever do you?Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Given your failure to justify your false claim I then posted again ' I note that you, not me, have stated that you never support your claims. Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
The facts are that you have demonstrated a lack of respect for the truth and continue to run away from your own claims.Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Incidently, what I do claim is that you are a proven liar as I have demonstrated in the post above.

:dl:

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
from Mycroft:When a war of conquest and expulsion - such as the zionist project in Palestine - is launched, the agressors are making no distinction between civilians and combatants.

********.

Originally posted by CapelDodger
And zionism makes no distinction between civilian and combatant within the Israeli community. All are there to serve The State and The Jewish People, like bees in a hive. When Israeli soldiers travel on civilian buses, they're part of a citizen army.

If you don't like the organization of a society and are free not to join it, I fail to see how your dislike is grounds to support its destruction by any means. A citizen army still makes distinctions between combatants and noncombatants, and targeting civilians is still targeting civilians.

Originally posted by CapelDodger
When Arab combatants refuse to gather together in a safe spot away from buildings and populace, to get whacked by Israeli gun-ships, they're sneaky fellows. Perhaps Israel would take up the challenge of allowing the Palestinians to build a regular army, like theirs, with top-grade equipment and training, like theirs, and then take them on mano e mano? Winner takes all? After all, the Israelis can always fall back on the nuclear option.

Either you have rules of war, or you don't. Either you apply them to both sides, or to no side. Yes, we understand why the Palestinian-Arabs do not organize themselves in a more traditional military way, but if we accept this then we also accept that their purposefully making it difficult to distinguish between civilian and combatant and their conducting military operations in areas of high civilian density will result in civilian casualties on their side.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir An icon and lots of bold text.


Interesting.

You may have some intent in making that post but I am afraid that it means absolutely nothing to me other than once again you have seen fit to run away from your own claim.

At least you are consistent.

[demon]

A point about the Occupation.
To nail the myth that the Occupation is about Israel`s security, I recommend anyone (apart from our resident Eretz Israel Zionists), to investigate "Mechiro shel Ihud" by Yossi Beilin. Beilin was an advisor to Shimon Peres during he late 1960s and 70. In this book, Beilin provides an account -using the official record - of Israeli cabinet meetings from 1967-1977. In this book, based on the Israeli Government's own documents, it becomes very clear that the Occupation has nothing much to do with security but is mostly about water (and, to a lesser extent, as a measure against the so-called "demographic" problem - that there are "too many" Arabs). It's well worth the effort.
This is why the Israelis won`t build their wall on Israelli land and keep within the borders agreed by the UN and withdraw their army behind it. If they did this, I think it unlikely that they would be attacked by any of the surrounding countries given the power of their own army and the US army and the added security of patrolling an actual boarder and not a hostile territory. They would then have the support of probably most of the world to live in peace and anyone who committed hostilities towards them would be villified.
The settlers of course would have to make up their mind if they would prefer to stay in Palestine or move back to Israel. I am sure some compensation deal could be cobbled together. Until that is done there is IMO no point talking about anything else in the the Israeli /Palestinian land struggle.
In the light of this, to assert that Israel has made greater and more honest efforts to achieve peace is laughable.
I fully realise Arafat has been a dreadfull leader (so no need to repeat any cliches), but the notion Israel would end the Occupation if it had a different "partner" in Palestine is absurd to anyone who knows anything about Likud Greater Israel ideology.


On the matter of the Arab world attacking Israel in 1948, that's the official line used by Israel but it's not quite true. In November 1947, the UN General Assembly made a recommendation for a three way partition of Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state, with Jerusalem as an internationally administered zone. This when war broke out between the Palestinians and the Zionists. The latter were far better organized and managed to expell about 300,000 Palestinians by May 48, when Israel was officially founded. To quote the Israeli historian Benny Morris:

"A great deal of fresh light is shed on the multiple and variegated causation of the Arab exodus in a document which has recently surfaced, entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 1/6/1948. . . ." Dated 30 June 1948, it was produced by the Israel Defence Forces Intelligence Branch during the first weeks of the First Truce (11 June-9 July) of the 1948 war... Rather than suggesting Israeli blamelessness in the creation of the refugee problem, the Intelligence Branch assessment is written in blunt factual and analytical terms and, if anything, contains more than a hint of "advice" as to how to precipitate further Palestinian flight by indirect methods, without having recourse to direct politically and morally embarrassing expulsion orders..." (see Morris, Middle East Studies, below).

Incidentally, Morris later had to revise his figures upwards -based on newly declassified Israeli record. These new documents "revealed atrocities that [Morris] had not been aware of while writing The Birth... These atrocities are important in understanding the precipitation of various phases of the Arab exodus... Above all, let me reiterate, the refugee problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages and towns and by the inhabitants' fear of such attacks, compounded by expulsions, atrocities, and rumors of atrocities - and by the crucial Israeli Cabinet decision in June 1948 to bar a refugee return." (See Morris in Rogan and Shlaim).

Morris, by the way, is no dove on Israel, having recently argued that "Even the great American democracy could not have been created without the annihilation of the Indians. There are cases in which the overall, final good justifies harsh and cruel acts that are committed in the course of history" and "If you are asking me whether I support the transfer and expulsion of the Arabs from the West Bank, Gaza and perhaps even from Galilee and the Triangle [Israel], I say not at this moment. I am not willing to be a partner to that act. In the present circumstances, it is neither moral nor realistic. The world would not allow it, the Arab world would not allow it, it would destroy the Jewish society from within. But I am ready to tell you that under other circumstances, apocalyptic ones, which are liable to be realized in five or ten years, I can see expulsions. If we find ourselves with atomic weapons around us, or if there is a general Arab attack on us and a situation of warfare on the front with Arabs in the rear shooting at convoys on their way to the front, acts of expulsion will be entirely reasonable. They may even be essential." (Morris quoted in "Benny Morris's Shocking Interview" By Baruch Kimmerling, available at http://hnn.us/articles/3166.html )


The Israel that was founded was well beyond the borders recommended by the UN. It was then -after Israel had taken control of far more territory than it had agreed to- that the Arab states attacked (and there's a lot more to that story, too).

You`ll find all the relevent details in the works below if you're interested.

David Hirst (1977), "The Gun and the Olive
Branch: The Roots of Violence in the Middle East".


Benny Morris, "The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: the Israel
Defence Forces Intelligence Branch Analysis of June 1948," Middle Eastern Studies.
(London), January 1986, pp. 5-19

Benny Morris (1987) "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949".

"Revisiting the Palestinian
exodus of 1948," in Eugene L. Rogan and Avi Shlaim, eds., (2000) 'The War for Palestine:
Rewriting the History of 1948'.

Ilan Pappé (1992) "The Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1947-51".

Simha Flapan (1987) "The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities".

[CapelDodger]

To demon's reading list I would add Righteous Victims : A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-1999 by Benny Morris and One Palestine Complete : Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate by Tom Segev.